I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).

In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?

I can't think of anything expect that we have no proof he ever said that. (The bible is not proof for Muslims).

1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C. K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.” [23]

2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God.

3. The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquerors the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived. We are not the only ones who believe that Jesus’ statement does not make him God:

To say that Jesus is “before” him is not to lift him out of the ranks of humanity but to assert his unconditional precedence. To take such statements at the level of “flesh” so as to infer, as “the Jews” do that, at less than fifty, Jesus is claiming to have lived on this earth before Abraham (8:52 and 57), is to be as crass as Nicodemus who understands rebirth as an old man entering his mother’s womb a second time (3:4). [24]

4. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

Buzzard, pp. 93-97

Dana, Letter 21, pp. 169-171

Morgridge, pp. 120-21

Norton, pp. 242-246

Snedeker, pp. 416-418

Malaikah is right. If he wants to proove something with the Bible, then he first has to proove that the Bible is authentic, right? Except that, there are places in the Bible where Jesus undoubtfully claims that he (a.s.) is not God, so it would be ridiculous to take one part of the Bible, and ignore another part... MAybe this could help at least a little a bit: Common Christian Misbeliefs addressed in Question and Answer format.

Since it's supposed to be a thread for Islamic view only and not for debate I moved this on request from comparative to here.

Verse commonly used to support the divinity of Jesus is John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.’ ”

This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth.

The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan.

Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ 5Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”


According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”


In the Qur‘aan, Chapter al-A‘raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world.

“When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: ‘We were unaware of this.’ ”

Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

Peace

Thanks everyone for this. The lady I am debating didn't bring up this verse when I challenged her to show me just where Jesus said "I am God" - instead she referred to his trial. This is what she wrote:

Any help?

I believe Khalid Yaseen in one of his videos said that that verse is not read as ""IT IS AS YOU SAID..." but rather as "YOU SAY THAT I AM.." which gives completely different meaning. So, it's not him who is claiming that, but they. After that, Pilate found no fault with him (as he did not claim he is the son of god).

BTW, ask the Christian lady: where is it that Jesus' name appears in the Old Testament? Explicitely? Nowhere is the answer....you can also ask her, what happens to those people who lived before Isa, alayhis-selam, as they did not him? So how is he "suppose to save them"??

how do you know that your saviour is Jesus, when you dont know/cant prove that he said that?

but then again, you can just ague that since the bible has been changes sooooooo many times by the chruch, what can garantee me, that this is not the word of man.

thats all for now. i dont kow if it is much a help.

Just peeking in to read, not to debate.

:::turns around and walks out of room, whistling:::

First of all Diciples of Jesus (pbuh) were not there!

Second they were always on the run, hunted, killed, hiding in mountains!

Third they wanted to kill him becuase He were Prophet and they didnt want to loose control and power, God cannot be that weak that all what He did is some Miracles that for Real GOD, this is children playing in Circus, this if we can compare it like that from first place!

The Intresting that Jesus (pbuh) succefuly told us in the bible that he is Prophet send by God, supported with SIGNS (miracles), that he from himself cannot do nothing, but HE FAILED to say once that he is God !?

and I ask how cannot he do nothing and at same time he is part of God and EQUAL to other parts!?

If you have three equal Parts, how come they be equal if each one can do things the other cannot do!?

Father creat but cannot be Merciful so he need the son!

Son cannot do anything without father, only save people!

Holy spirit that give life and cannot creat, or save even cannot inspire anything right, and even stoped of inspiring!

And then the three are Equal!

Sorry I went to another subject but we should look at the picture as whole!

returning to the same subject you can read this small book concerning this subject of Shiekh Ahmed Deedat may Allah (swt) rest him in peace:

http://www.jamaat.net/crux/Crux1-5.html

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

Sorry for moving out of topic......

"God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of
the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was
hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and
when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

"God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)

Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke,
2:40)

Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor
with God and man." (Luke, 2:52)

"God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem
every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the
custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

"God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom
Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their
synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty
works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and
Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew,
13:54-56)

"God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with
an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."
(Acts, 2:30)

The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew,
1:1)

The Gender of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was
called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were
accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal
stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with
child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"God" Suckled The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the
company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou
hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27)

The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king.
(Matthew, 2:1)

The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter."
(Matthew, 13:55)

The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5)

The Transport of "God": "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man
gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34)

The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but
the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20)

The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23)

"God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed
into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35)

"God" Was a Loyal Subject and taxpayer: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto
Caesar

The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he
was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from
him for a season." (Luke, 4:13)

Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet
without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15)

True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(James, 1:13)

Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own
lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14)
Page

The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by
John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance
from sins (Matthew, 3:11).

"God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve
asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of
God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not
perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their
sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12)

THE RACIST "GOD"

"God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5)

"God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24)

Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the
way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6)

According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
(matthew, 15:26)

The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his
kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33)

The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13)

A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD

A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
(Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the
morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28)

A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder
part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38)

A Tired "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6)

A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again
groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38)

A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept " (John 11:35)

A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto
them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38)

A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33)

A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)
THE WARRING "GOD"

The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein,
and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and
when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen;
and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15)

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but
a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke, 22:36)

The "GOD" ON THE RUN

"God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry,
because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to
death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

"God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their
hand." (John, 10:39)

"God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the
temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

THE CAPTURE OF "GOD"

A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place:
for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers
from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3)
"God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took
Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

"God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had
blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted
him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67)

"God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said:
"Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23)

"God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They
answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66)
The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his
shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)

THE END OF "GOD"

The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37)
The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John,
19:33)

The Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58)

The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew,
27:59)

The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified
God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47)

EPILOGUE

This post is for the sake of Muslim kids on this site who are in danger of being misled by clever threads

According to these self-appointed apostles of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE
OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the
Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY
WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with
these Christians. Either they must prove that Jesus is God, or they must admit that they are polytheists, (believers in
more than one God).

DESPITE ALL THEIR TRICKERY, THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!!

These preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything
other than a natural man and a Prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the
coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD!

Note: adapted with modifications from an epilogue by Brother Ahmed Deedat

wow, I will just as a 2 center

I said soemthing what Bassam said in that When he said "before Abraham was"

then according tot he context of what is being said, it is meant that he was part of the "qadr' or the pre determination, the will of Allah.

It is similar to me saying before Adam was, I am, meaning I was, and you were and everything we see was, and the people who will come 100 years from now were before Adam was. That is because they are all form the will of Allah from His qadr, and we were eons before He even created creation. That does not denote some kind of divinity for us. But thats the problem with the christian mind, It somehow becomes either crippled to intelelctual in-eptivity with regards to language and tradition far more superior in vasteness and elequence, or for those who rise beyond being crippled, they subject themselves to a bias unmatched by any sectarian group in the history o