Muslims in the military

Osman · **Muslims in the military -** 07-03-2008

By Gordon Corera
BBC News security correspondent

Imam Asim Hafiz ministers to Muslims in all three services

A country house in Hampshire was the rarefied setting for the second conference hosting Muslims serving in Britain's armed forces.

Those who gathered at Amport House - the home to military chaplains from all faiths - came for a mix of practical advice and spiritual support, talking of how the military had done much to accommodate them but arguing that there was more to be done, including in the field of recruitment.

Close to 400 Muslims serve in the military - about 300 in the Army, 50 in the RAF and 40 in the Navy.

Many come from the Commonwealth as well as from Britain's established Muslim communities - Gambia and Ghana were well represented.

The Navy and RAF have a sprinkling of high-ranking officers, including group captains and rear admirals, but the Army appears to have somewhat fewer role models for young Muslims joining up.

Potatoes and peas

Imam Asim Hafiz, who has served as the Muslim chaplain for the last three years, organised the conference and is in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of Muslims in all three services.

"They are soldiers but at the same time they have a faith identity, a Muslim identity," he told the BBC.

He went on to explain that the conference provided Muslims with advice on tackling some of the issues they may face - like how to talk to superiors about getting regular prayer time, or having halal food available or fasting.

Some of the older officers explained that when they joined the issue of halal food was not understood at all, leading to a diet that consisted largely of potatoes and peas.

But while progress has been made, there was a sense that more work needed to be done to educate officers on how to deal with Muslims in their ranks and what it means to practise a religion.

"It is an education for the individual on how to raise these issues and an education to the hierarchy that these are just different requirements that need to be considered," explained one flight lieutenant in the RAF.

The proportion of Muslims in the armed forces is far from reflecting the numbers in society as a whole, and recruiters acknowledge the Muslim community is harder than others to operate in.

"When they go back to those communities they are making the statement that there is a possible career within the armed forces," explained Imam Hafiz.

Kidnap plot

"Not only Muslims, but also the wider community, think that Muslims do not serve in the military.

"I think that's one of the strong messages they take back - that Muslims are just as committed to the security of this country and the defence of this country."

There may be few of them but some Muslims in the military have made the news.

L/Cpl Jabron Hashmi, from Birmingham, died two years ago in Afghanistan, one of the first soldiers to be killed as part of the deployment to Helmand province.

There was also the conviction of a Birmingham man in January 2008 for a plot to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier, which has raised issues of security and leads some attending the conference to prefer to talk anonymously.

If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want

Muslim soldier

And beyond the headlines there are also deeper questions for Muslim soldiers when Britain is currently engaged in two major military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, both predominantly Muslim countries.

Those attending the conference acknowledged that the political nature of these conflicts did raise issues and lead to more questions from friends and family.

Bob Ainsworth, who spoke at the conference as minister for the armed forces, acknowledged the challenge.

"I think it is important that we do our best to make ourselves attractive to Muslims in terms of our recruitment," he told the BBC.

Reflecting society

"And then once we have got people in, that we support them appropriately. Politics enters into it. Other issues enter into it.

"Pressures come to bear and we don't get the proportion of the Muslim population in Britain joining the armed forces that we would want and that would reflect our society.

"We need to aim for that. We need to get it there."

The Armed Forces Chaplaincy Centre supports military chaplains

One army recruit talked of going to religious elders for advice on whether or not to join.

They had no objection to his signing up, but the main advice they gave him was not to lose his religious identity when he joined, something he said was a danger, particularly with some aspects of army life such as the enjoyment of alcohol.

Once he joined, he found that engaging in army banter soon helped overcome initial distance from his comrades who quickly became used to his beard and the practising of his faith when it came to issues like food and prayer.

"If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want."

Source

Osman · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-05-2008

- Serene - · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-05-2008

Quote:

Once he joined, he found that engaging in army banter soon helped overcome initial distance from his comrades who quickly became used to his beard and the practising of his faith when it came to issues like food and prayer.

MashaaAllaah, it's good to see Muslims getting involved in all kinds of jobs!

KAding · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-06-2008

Excellent to hear. It would be ridiculous anyway, after all the British army fights side-by-side with the Afghan national army in Helmand or the Iraqi Army in Basra for example, and those are all Muslims!

islamirama · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osman

L/Cpl Jabron Hashmi, from Birmingham, died two years ago in Afghanistan, one of the first soldiers to be killed as part of the deployment to Helmand province.

From Afghanistan to hell with his soldiers buddies.....

The scholars of Islam have stated that it is not permitted to support the kaafirs against the Muslims, and that is kufr (disbelief) and riddah (apostasy).

“And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’, i.e., friends), then surely, he is one of them”[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

Quote:

If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want

Muslim soldier

So if he be a good little soldier and kill other Muslims, then they would accept him being whatever he wants (Muslim?), how pathetic!

If you are sent to wage war against the Muslims, then it is not permissible for you to take part at all. Helping the kaafirs against the Muslims is a form of major kufr which puts one beyond the pale of Islam.

Allaah says concerning one who supports the mushrikeen (interpretation of the meaning):

‘It is only as regards those who fought you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allaah forbids you to befriend them…’ [al-Mumtahinah 60:9 – ].”

Islamqa.com

see also,

Ruling on helping the kuffaar against the Muslims.

KAding · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

Quote:

The scholars of Islam have stated that it is not permitted to support the kaafirs against the Muslims, and that is kufr (disbelief) and riddah (apostasy).

If you are sent to wage war against the Muslims, then it is not permissible for you to take part at all. Helping the kaafirs against the Muslims is a form of major kufr which puts one beyond the pale of Islam.

Except that neither Afghanistan nor Iraq is a "war against the Muslims". After all, there are Muslims on all sides there. Like I said, in both places British soldiers are fighting side-by-side with Muslims.

No doubt you consider all of them (Iraqi/Afghan police, army, government, etc) apostates. But that you think only a minority of Muslims are actually Muslims is not something these Muslims soldiers in the British army should take very seriously IMHO.

AvarAllahNoor · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

Quote:

The scholars of Islam have stated that it is not permitted to support the kaafirs against the Muslims, and that is kufr (disbelief) and riddah (apostasy).

Is it permitted for a muslim to kill another muslim, should one of them come to him with the intention of hurting/killing?

Aaron85 · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

In my opinion Islamirama is right.Devout muslims shouldnt fiht against other muslims. I think that this is why there are so few muslims in Indian army and almost no muslims in Israeli army. Europeans should consider this.

Rose_Ice · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

On the authority of Ibn Mas’ud, radiyallahu anhu, who said that The Messenger of Allah, sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam, said:

"The blood of a man who is a Muslim is not lawful (i.e. cannot be lawfully shed), save if he belongs to one of three (classes): a married man who is an adulterer; life for a life (i.e. for murder); one who is a deserter of his religion, abandoning the community.”
[Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

There's also another hadith that says something like: "If you kill a muslim it is as if you have killed humanity. And if you save a muslim it's as if you have saved humanity."
I can't remember the exact wording but it was something on those lines.

So how could you possible join with the mushrik and fight against your own brothers??

KAding · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose_Ice

On the authority of Ibn Mas’ud, radiyallahu anhu, who said that The Messenger of Allah, sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam, said:

"The blood of a man who is a Muslim is not lawful (i.e. cannot be lawfully shed), save if he belongs to one of three (classes): a married man who is an adulterer; life for a life (i.e. for murder); one who is a deserter of his religion, abandoning the community.”
[Al-Bukhari & Muslim]

There's also another hadith that says something like: "If you kill a muslim it is as if you have killed humanity. And if you save a muslim it's as if you have saved humanity."
I can't remember the exact wording but it was something on those lines.

So how could you possible join with the mushrik and fight against your own brothers??

Of course, that applies to all soldiers who fight in Muslim countries, be they in the British Army, Afghan National Army or the Taliban. All are in that sense sinning. Since all are fighting against soldiers that are Muslim.

Btw, I think you are actually referring to chapter 5, verse 32 in the Qu'ran? Which talks about all, not just Muslim lives?

mediadave · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-12-2008

Quote:

Of course, that applies to all soldiers who fight in Muslim countries, be they in the British Army, Afghan National Army or the Taliban. All are in that sense sinning. Since all are fighting against soldiers that are Muslim.

Indeed. The Taliban and the Iraq 'resistance' can't be muslims, since they mainly if not exclusively target and fight muslims. So it is permissable for a muslim to wage war on them. QED!

The_Prince · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-13-2008

oh yes these muslim soldiers want to know the rules on halal and prayer times bla bla bla but lol they forget the main IDEA which is that it is prohibited to fight and kill fellow Muslims! sheesh louise what a bunch of baboons.

the fact is this, yes some of the Muslims that are being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan are bad guys, but the other fact is this, the general strategy of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is to steal the oil and control the resources, while maintining a very strong american millitary presence in the region for the favor of Israel.

so these 'Muslims' are taking part in the general oppression against the Muslims of these 2 countries.

all their halal food and prayers aint gonna help them.

islamirama · **Re: Muslims in the military -** 07-14-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron85

In my opinion Islamirama is right.Devout muslims shouldnt fiht against other muslims. I think that this is why there are so few muslims in Indian army and almost no muslims in Israeli army. Europeans should consider this.

Thank you for understanding, may Allah guide you bro.

Muslim nations may fight Muslim nations and each one will get what they are destined to. But when a Muslim joins a non-Muslim army and goes into Muslim lands, shooting and killing Muslims, Islam is quite clear on such "Muslim". They choose to fight along side the enemies of Islam, die with them, and so too they shall rise with them on J-Day. Apparently other non-Muslims here lack the broad mindedness to understand or accept Islamic stand on this issue. I'm sure it would've been the same for Christians when Romans were oppressing the Christians, wouldn't a traitor be in the Roman army trying to "save" his christian brothers from "terrorism"

north_malaysian · 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron85

almost no muslims in Israeli army.

Arabs and Muslims in the IDF
Many of Arabs/Muslims serve in IDF . Druze (a sect from Shia Islam) soldiers serve everywhere in IDF and Israeli police , and doing a **** good job at it . There are also Muslims from former Soviet Union who serve in different IDF units .

But for more conservative Muslim communities who wish to serve as a combatant soldiers in IDF , there is special battalion where they can serve all together . It's called "Bedouin recon battalion" , sence most of it's members are Bedouin (nomadic) Arabs , but there are also many Cherkes (Kavkazian Muslim people) as well as non-Bedouin Arabs Muslims and Christians alike . This is combat infantry battalion , and members of it are combat fighting soldiers who serve in Gaza sector .

The number of Muslims(Arab and other) serving in the IDF is considerably higher than that. Bedouin Arab Muslims are in fact Arab Muslims who live a Beoduin lifestyle. Bedouin is not an ethnicity, its a way of life.

According to the IDF Spokeswoman Miri Regev, between 600-800 Bedouin enlist every year voluntarily. Non-Bedouin Arab Muslims(Mostly from villages in the upper Galillee) account for roughly 120 enlistments a year. The CHristian Arab enlistment rate is significantly lower with around 60-80 enlistments a year. I was unable to find figures for Circassian enlistments. Circassians are Descent from people brought to Israel from the Caucasus region of what is now modern Armenia, Azerbajan and Georgia to protect Ottoman interests. They are Sunni Muslim and are very pro-Israel

Recently five soldiers were killed from the Bedouin Recon unit, but 3 out of the 5 killed were Muslim Arabs from the Galilee, not Bedouin Arabs.

A few soviet union Muslims arel iving in Israel under both refugee status and elligibility under the law of return as having atleast one jewish grandparent or marrying a jew.

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?p=8621

Israeli Druze Soldier's Funeral Service

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Osman LI Oldskool Status: Online Posts: 3,507 Reputation: 15591 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Warrington, England Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Muslims in the military - 07-03-2008 By Gordon Corera BBC News security correspondent Imam Asim Hafiz ministers to Muslims in all three services A country house in Hampshire was the rarefied setting for the second conference hosting Muslims serving in Britain's armed forces. Those who gathered at Amport House - the home to military chaplains from all faiths - came for a mix of practical advice and spiritual support, talking of how the military had done much to accommodate them but arguing that there was more to be done, including in the field of recruitment. Close to 400 Muslims serve in the military - about 300 in the Army, 50 in the RAF and 40 in the Navy. Many come from the Commonwealth as well as from Britain's established Muslim communities - Gambia and Ghana were well represented. The Navy and RAF have a sprinkling of high-ranking officers, including group captains and rear admirals, but the Army appears to have somewhat fewer role models for young Muslims joining up. Potatoes and peas Imam Asim Hafiz, who has served as the Muslim chaplain for the last three years, organised the conference and is in charge of ministering to the spiritual needs of Muslims in all three services. "They are soldiers but at the same time they have a faith identity, a Muslim identity," he told the BBC. He went on to explain that the conference provided Muslims with advice on tackling some of the issues they may face - like how to talk to superiors about getting regular prayer time, or having halal food available or fasting. Some of the older officers explained that when they joined the issue of halal food was not understood at all, leading to a diet that consisted largely of potatoes and peas. But while progress has been made, there was a sense that more work needed to be done to educate officers on how to deal with Muslims in their ranks and what it means to practise a religion. "It is an education for the individual on how to raise these issues and an education to the hierarchy that these are just different requirements that need to be considered," explained one flight lieutenant in the RAF. The proportion of Muslims in the armed forces is far from reflecting the numbers in society as a whole, and recruiters acknowledge the Muslim community is harder than others to operate in. "When they go back to those communities they are making the statement that there is a possible career within the armed forces," explained Imam Hafiz. Kidnap plot "Not only Muslims, but also the wider community, think that Muslims do not serve in the military. "I think that's one of the strong messages they take back - that Muslims are just as committed to the security of this country and the defence of this country." There may be few of them but some Muslims in the military have made the news. L/Cpl Jabron Hashmi, from Birmingham, died two years ago in Afghanistan, one of the first soldiers to be killed as part of the deployment to Helmand province. There was also the conviction of a Birmingham man in January 2008 for a plot to kidnap and behead a British Muslim soldier, which has raised issues of security and leads some attending the conference to prefer to talk anonymously. If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want Muslim soldier And beyond the headlines there are also deeper questions for Muslim soldiers when Britain is currently engaged in two major military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, both predominantly Muslim countries. Those attending the conference acknowledged that the political nature of these conflicts did raise issues and lead to more questions from friends and family. Bob Ainsworth, who spoke at the conference as minister for the armed forces, acknowledged the challenge. "I think it is important that we do our best to make ourselves attractive to Muslims in terms of our recruitment," he told the BBC. Reflecting society "And then once we have got people in, that we support them appropriately. Politics enters into it. Other issues enter into it. "Pressures come to bear and we don't get the proportion of the Muslim population in Britain joining the armed forces that we would want and that would reflect our society. "We need to aim for that. We need to get it there." The Armed Forces Chaplaincy Centre supports military chaplains One army recruit talked of going to religious elders for advice on whether or not to join. They had no objection to his signing up, but the main advice they gave him was not to lose his religious identity when he joined, something he said was a danger, particularly with some aspects of army life such as the enjoyment of alcohol. Once he joined, he found that engaging in army banter soon helped overcome initial distance from his comrades who quickly became used to his beard and the practising of his faith when it came to issues like food and prayer. "If I can show them I can be a good soldier to the best of my ability, they won't have any qualms with me doing whatever else I want." Source __________________ Shall I inform you of the best morals of this world and the hereafter? They are to forgive he who oppresses you, to make a bond with he who severs from you, to be kind to he who insults you, and to give to he who deprives you. ~ Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and grant him peace)

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Osman LI Oldskool Status: Online Posts: 3,507 Reputation: 15591 Rep Power: 45 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Warrington, England Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Muslims in the military - 07-05-2008 __________________ Shall I inform you of the best morals of this world and the hereafter? They are to forgive he who oppresses you, to make a bond with he who severs from you, to be kind to he who insults you, and to give to he who deprives you. ~ Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and grant him peace)

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KAding LI Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 1,186 Reputation: 2102 Rep Power: 19 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: The Netherlands Gender: Way of Life: Atheist	Re: Muslims in the military - 07-06-2008 Excellent to hear. It would be ridiculous anyway, after all the British army fights side-by-side with the Afghan national army in Helmand or the Iraqi Army in Basra for example, and those are all Muslims!

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Aaron85 LI Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 1,502 Reputation: 2491 Rep Power: 14 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: From Mars...To Sirius. Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Muslims in the military - 07-12-2008 In my opinion Islamirama is right.Devout muslims shouldnt fiht against other muslims. I think that this is why there are so few muslims in Indian army and almost no muslims in Israeli army. Europeans should consider this. __________________ Right from the beginning.

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Rose_Ice ...sheep...S Status: Offline Posts: 2,793 Reputation: 9968 Rep Power: 30 Join Date: Mar 2006 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Muslims in the military - 07-12-2008 On the authority of Ibn Mas’ud, radiyallahu anhu, who said that The Messenger of Allah, sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam, said: "The blood of a man who is a Muslim is not lawful (i.e. cannot be lawfully shed), save if he belongs to one of three (classes): a married man who is an adulterer; life for a life (i.e. for murder); one who is a deserter of his religion, abandoning the community.” [Al-Bukhari & Muslim] There's also another hadith that says something like: "If you kill a muslim it is as if you have killed humanity. And if you save a muslim it's as if you have saved humanity." I can't remember the exact wording but it was something on those lines. So how could you possible join with the mushrik and fight against your own brothers?? __________________ Remember me in your du'as...

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The_Prince www.muslim-repsonses Status: Offline Posts: 753 Reputation: 2544 Rep Power: 13 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Mars, where they located the ice, it was my freezer where i keep the fish Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Muslims in the military - 07-13-2008 oh yes these muslim soldiers want to know the rules on halal and prayer times bla bla bla but lol they forget the main IDEA which is that it is prohibited to fight and kill fellow Muslims! sheesh louise what a bunch of baboons. the fact is this, yes some of the Muslims that are being fought in Iraq and Afghanistan are bad guys, but the other fact is this, the general strategy of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is to steal the oil and control the resources, while maintining a very strong american millitary presence in the region for the favor of Israel. so these 'Muslims' are taking part in the general oppression against the Muslims of these 2 countries. all their halal food and prayers aint gonna help them.

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czgibson LI Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 2,150 Reputation: 4506 Rep Power: 27