Originally Posted by Fishman

Actually there are loads of Islamic schools in the West, and courses for people who can't go to these schools.

Roger that...plz do us a favor catmando and dont embarass urself.

Originally Posted by catmando

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

If the views of certain American (or Israeli) politicians ever become mainstream, then the Muslims probably would suffer a holocaust. A few months ago I would have said Islam was the most hated and misunderstood major religion in the world. I think recently it's been replaced by Judaism, thanks to all the stuff happening in the Middle East, and the fact that Western countries have started to realise that they were badly misunderstanding Muslims.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

The holocaust has no relevance today either ... it is over ... it shaped all our collective world....movie rights, memorabilia...no shortage of the cash pile from the offenders not to mention someone else's land for comp.... If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

I don't think of the Holocaust much when I consider the modern state of Israel. They are victims no longer. The only connection to the Holocaust I think of when contemplating Israel and its actions is a desire to never allow Jews to become victims again, which seems to make Israel quite aggressive and possibly too aggressive when protecting its self-interest.

Originally Posted by Keltoi

I did read it. Fail to see your point. Unless you assume that there is a concerted effort to kill Muslims because of their religion, which I don't believe is the case.

How would you know that? Are you the all knowing?

Originally Posted by Tayyaba

How would you know that? Are you the all knowing?

Is this comment directed towards me? If so, clarify what you are speaking about.

*All knowing? No, only my belief, which I stated. If you believe there is a concerted effort to kill Muslims because of their religion I would like to read your justification for such a belief.

I dont feel the need to repeat myself like a broken record. Go back to my post and see what comment of urs i quoted.

Originally Posted by catmando

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

Hahaha, u r rite there! The Holocaust is still a relevant topic! Hmm, why dont we asked the German who started all of these Holocaust to grant the state of Israel anywhere within their own current boundary? Or perhaps to the most staunch protector of Israel, the US? When does the logics of `someone burns ur house, and to get even (or in some instances, in order to survive) u burn someone else's house' have any relevance here? Furthermore, the Zionist claims that the current state of Israel is rightly bestowed to them by God since time immemorable? Where does this argument has any validity now as in ur reference to the crusades? Please be partial in ur judgement....

Originally Posted by Mazed

man wat on earth are you babbling about. Theres already plenty of madrasa's in the west, infact my cousin goes to one, infact members of this forum go to some!!

And I go to Islamic classes on mondays!

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

If the case were a focus on modern events then we should intervene now with modern day massacres....

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by Trumble

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

Sure it is relevant ... if you scroll through previous threads you'll see a post on the affairs of Muslims killing each other ... and how since the days of the messenger (PBUH) it was deeply devastating and frowned upon and we are told it would lead to eternal ****ation in the hereafter...Ignorance breeds hatred and unfortunately not every Muslim out there is either observant or a scholar ... we would be deluding ourselves if we thought we were all of same class or same intellectual capabilities ...Same socioeconomic condition ... it is incumbent upon all of us to change what we can. through charity, teaching or whatever means. ... Any society muslim or not needs to work on that ... there are no utopias on earth.. you are welcome to name me one as I am in desperate need of a vacation... I digress.....However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own ... you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

However, we need to take care of external forces first before we deal with our own

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur.

you can't tell me that there are no members of your family with which you feud? would you want a "friendly" neighbor or even an enemy intervening in your affairs with them? forgive the simplicity of the question but I'd like an honest answer to that...

Actually, I can honestly tell you that there are none, because as far as I am aware my living blood relatives (with whom I have ever had any contact, anyway) number precisely two - my parents. I guess I argue with Mrs Trumble and scold baby Trumble on occasion, but its hardly what I'd call a "feud"!

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel.

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

Originally Posted by catmando

Yaddayaddayadda. Have the Muslims gone through a Diaspora and a Holocaust? No? The you have no right to talk about being "slaughtered".

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering..we do recognise also that others suffered..we donot make any attempts to present ourselves as the most tragic case or as the 'sole' sufferers of injustice..like some people do.

Originally Posted by catmando

Oh and as to your Muslim "education", do you think the West will allow madrasas in their countries? Better think again.

Madrassa for your information means School..it can mean a secular one teaching worldly subjects or one teaching purely reliigous sciences...and they do exist in western countries..here in the UK its estimated that about 200,000 children attend Islamic lessons in their local mosques daily.

Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

firstly what do you call what happened to the bosnian muslims in Srebenica? 8000 muslim men and boys slaughtered within minutes..under the watchful eye of international peacekeepers...what about the muslims in Russian slaughtered by Stalin? donot belittle our suffering.

Don't forget what happened in China and Ethiopia.

Originally Posted by Trumble

OK, lets look at modern massacres. Somewhere between 250,000 and 400,000 innocent civilians, muslims, have been slaughtered in one country in the last three years. Lebanon? No. Palestine? No. Afghanistan? No. Iraq? No.

They were killed in the Darfur region of Sudan. Where are the photos? Where are the videos? Where is the condemnation? Where are the protests? Where are the Iranian volunteers? Where are the Arab armies? Where are the calls for intervention by anybody? Or is it because those muslims were butchered, not by the "evil Zionists", but by muslims, that nobody cares. Or are they "not relevant today", either?

THAT is hypocrisy.

how do you even dare to judge it as hypocricy when all you watch is SKY AND BBC etc?? if you want to see what the muslims are doing..turn on Arab Channels, the Islam Channel..they had many live charity appeals for many muslim countries..go to Muslim Internet sites like Islamonline.net and they did talk and report about this crisis ..see the work of the Muslim Relief Organisations there like Islamic Relief, Muslim Hands, Little Kindness -Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens charity and he also went there too along with his wife ..you have no right to call it hypocrisy..neglect..yes by the oil rich arab presidents..who even dont even care about the suffering and starving in their own backyard let alone care about other needy muslims from far away countries.

btw you remind me of many other nonmuslims who always ask me why havent the muslims condemned 911 or 77 in tired of all these questions..so i just tell them ..where were you when the mainstream news covered the muslim response the vigils the demos..the peace rallies?