Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

Originally Posted by Zulkiflim

Salaam,

In what ever the circumstances or what ever the enviroment,we muslim do nto lose faith.
Under oppresion we are still muslims
in richness in poverty we are still muslim

In sickness or in health we are still muslim.

We win everyday by being muslim,
We will ever after in the end.

So make your choice and follow the guidance of Islam.
Inshallah,

Inshallah.
This life is but chattels of deception.
The onli thing that will matter is the hereafter.

Originally Posted by Trumble

I would have thought, as in most aspects of life, that precisely the opposite was true. Sort out the problems at "home" first, as they should be the easiest, and then face those "external forces" with a united front? If you wait until Israel and the US are "taken care of" there will be nobody left in Darfur..

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it... It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

Originally Posted by Trumble

I find your "friendly" neighbour analogy utterly incomprehensible. If Mrs Trumble and I had a slight verbal tiff, would I want neighbours intervening? No. If however, I was aware that the man next door (hypothetically of course!) was beating his wife I would call the police. If I believed there was a chance she might be killed or seriously injured before the police could arrive I would be breaking the door down to intervene myself. Are you seriously suggesting I should do nothing?! Mass murder cannot be compared to a family quarrel."!

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Originally Posted by Trumble

Actually, I think Darfur illustrates very well a point that rarely gets recognised here. Muslims are killing muslims, but not because they ARE muslims. It is not a doctrinal conflict, it is a purely political conflict. To be specific, it is about LAND. Sound familiar? As long as there is a perception of "us" and "them", even when what determines that difference - whether one is muslim or not - is of no relevance, that perception can only be harmful, not helpful, to the chances of obtaining peace.

Muslims killing Muslims it is true but, Muslims are also saving non-msulims, where there was indeed a political conflict and without the help of westerners .... I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? .... There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews,”

“I know people in America think Muslims are terrorists, but for Rwandans they were our freedom fighters during the genocide,” said Jean Pierre Sagahutu, 37, a Tutsi who converted to Islam from Catholicism after his father and nine other members of his family were slaughtered, the paper reported.

“I wanted to hide in a church, but that was the worst place to go. Instead, a Muslim family took me. They saved my life.”
these aren't my words you can check the washington post archives.. washington post from my previous reading of it is one most strident with anti-Islamic articles yet
The Post quoted Habimana, the chief mufti in Rwanda saying: “Islam fits into the fabric of our society. It helps those who are in poverty. It preaches against behaviors that create AIDS. It offers education in the Koran and Arabic when there is not a lot of education being offered. I think people can relate to Islam. They are converting as a sign of appreciation to the Muslim community who sheltered them during the genocide.”

Originally Posted by Keltoi

Considers why you are bringing up the Holocaust and why you are bringing up the Crusades. If you are discussing historical events then it has obvious relevance. If you are discussing the state of Israel and the reasons it was created in the first place, the Holocaust is a relevant topic. If you are discussing the plight of the Muslim people in 2006, blaming it on the Crusades which occurred around 1100 A.D., then it has little to no relevance.

I brought the Holocaust up for a reason. To show that Muslims haven't really suffered like some others have. Muslims don't fit the profile of being victims nearly as well as others do.

We dont intend to say that to anyone however u may take it. It is true not only Muslims have suffered, but whether it be little or not.. they have always suffered from the start. Same with others as well. Why would we deny it. Its hardly possible.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I think the U.S is the grand reason behind what is going on in Dafour... in essence you have chaos and only outlaws seem to benefit from it...

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find

The conflict concerns the rebel forces of Darfur which the Sudan government has labeled as insurgents and the government-controlled Janjaweed.

There has been a series of military dictatorships since 1958, and following independence in 1956, the Sudanese government acquired a strong Arab character. The First Sudanese Civil War, between the Muslim government and the mostly non-Muslim population of the southern Sudan, began in 1955 and ended with the 1972 Addis Ababa Accords. In 1983, the Second Sudanese Civil War ensued when the president declared Sharia law in the south. Peace conferences in 2005 ended the 21-year civil war and produced an agreement under which state revenues — oil money in particular — would be shared between the government and the southern rebel groups.

In early 2003, two local rebel groups — the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) and the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) — accused the government of oppressing non-Arabs in favor of Arabs. The SLM is generally associated with the Fur and Masalit, while the JEM is associated with the Zaghawa of the northern half of Darfur.

There is also an eastern front in Sudan. The Eastern Front was set up in 2004 as an alliance between two eastern tribal rebel groups, the Rashaida tribe's Free Lions and the Beja Congress. They were later joined by the Darfuri Justice and Equality Movement (JEM).

Hassan al-Turabi was put in jail in March 2004 in connection with an alleged coup plot linked with JEM, [8] [9] but denies supporting JEM. [10] However, al-Turabi blames the government for "aggravating the situation." The government dropped charges on December 3, 2004...

It isn't America's job to ploice the world no matter how well intentioned ... I believe amongst many others foreign and domestic that they are only adding fire to the fuel..

No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?

There is a difference between being suspicious of your neighbor being a batterer and instigating a fight between him and his mrs ... these people of Iraq have had a fantastic history. It is the second most mentioned country in the Bible. they are the very birth place of civilization ... suddenly they are at each other's throats?.... No one had anything to do with that at all? I would love to share with you a Robert Fisk article stating the reverse but you have already stated to me how you feel about him...

Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?

I think it is Naiive to state that every war is started is over land? ....

It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.

There was for instance no concept of "us" or "them" in the the state-sponsored Rwandan genocide started in 1994, in which ethnic Hutu extremists killed 800,000 minority Tutsis and Hutu. Human rights groups have documented several incidents in which Christian clerics allowed Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis. Today some churches serve as memorials to the many people slaughtered among their pews

Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

Originally Posted by Trumble

Oh, come on. The US has nothing whatsoever to do with Darfur. From Wikipedia, being the first thing I could find






No, it isn't. But if they are guilty of anything in relation to Darfur it is the same as everybody else - doing nothing. I see no evidence that they are adding "fuel to the fire" - what do you base that claim on?




Erm.. I believe we were talking about Darfur?



It is, but I didn't claim that, although the great majority are.



Quite true, and Rwanda was another appalling "modern massacre" which everybody chose to ignore. I am not claiming, though, that that factor is always there. But is most certainly is in relation to both Palestinian and the current Lebanese conflicts, and unless I have totally mis-understood you, you are claiming that there has been no will for a 'muslim' intervention in Darfur because it is an "us-us" conflict, not an "us-them" one. My argument is that 'us-us' conflicts are the easiest to resolve, and that therefore the wider you extend the definition of 'us' (the logical conclusion being obviously all of humanity), the easier it is to achieve peace.

Yup sorry about dafur I confused it with a town in Iraq.. my bad....
Rwanda was ignored but there were those who helped I hazard say the same people who appear to be the focus as the conflict in most situtions... Now with that behinde us.... I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I need to rest I am feeling very under the weather today....

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Originally Posted by Trumble

I'm very sorry to hear that. I hope you are feeling better soon.

Thank you.... I appreciate your well wishes... I am shivering and it is the height of summer...

Oo0o sounds bad..feel better

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

Thank you.... I appreciate your well wishes... I am shivering and it is the height of summer...

Summer colds and flu are the worst of the bunch, and in my case usually lead to strep throat and being invalid for three weeks. Good luck.

My back is like out...>.< i woke up in pain and then a lil while later i kinda froze...couldnt move..! gettin better now..ok i know this is def off topic

Thank you both I think..... lol
suffering humanizes the soul you know.......=)

lol..see how it peaceful it made us to each other>.< oyeee
neways back to topic???? pffff

Back on topic, what do you think of a NATO peace-keeping force in Lebanon to separate Israel and Hezbollah, with the intention of pushing Hezbollah out of missile range of Israeli cities? This seems to be the most likely outcome from this conflict.