That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)

If you ask the opinion of the western journalists who covered the war or Chechens themselves - they will all tell you Buddenyvosk was the beginning of the end of the war.
Without the ceasefire Basayev won from Buddenyvosk, they would never have been able to carry out the counter-atack on Grozny and the war wouldnt have ended.

Maybe Buddenyvosk turned out to be the lesser of two evils.

Needless to say, every action like Buddenyvosk is because of this ongoing brutal war and every thing comes back to the Russian treatment of Chechens.

For example all of the women in the Nord-orst hostage-taking had either had their family members killed or had been raped - if that hadnt happened they wouldnt have come to Moscow.

Even Shamil basayev always offered to observe international law if russians did the same - why didnt the russians take him up on his offer?

Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".

For what he has done -especially in ending the first war he will always be a hero - albeit a flawed one.

Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...


Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?

No im not from their but i know brothers that are.

what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

Oil is one of the reasons. Russias imperial ambitions is another. Russians are still living in the past where they think they are an empire and have th right to rule over others.

Originally Posted by Chechnya

Salam Bro

I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world

Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....

Originally Posted by Chechnya

Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.

No wonder that the Tatar students in Malaysia proudly call themselves Russians. While the Chechen students are not friendly with the Tatars.

Originally Posted by Chechnya

it's Russia vs North Caucaus.

How about Russia vs Georgia?

Maybe because Russia is seen as an ally to the Muslim world as they need someone to protect them from America. Maybe that's why Putin attend OIC summit in KL as an observer few years ago....

Russia murders and rapes Muslims almost daily - until the backward Arabs get that into their head, they wont realise that Russia is a big enemy of Muslims.

Russia kills more Muslims, rapes more Muslims, tortures more Muslims than America - i dont understand how Arabs can claim to have Russia as an ally.

Hamas and all the Arab nationalists need to decide between - Arab nationalism and Islamic brotherhood.

How about Russia vs Georgia?

I cant imagine such a conflict taking place. Georgia is very pro-western so many western nations would see to it that there isnt a full blown conflict.

If there was one, it would weaken Russia even more as they would have to spread their army across an even bigger space - though it wouldnt be so good for the Georgian people.

I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.

Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra

I would never under any circumstances call the man responsible for Beslan a "hero", regardless of his motives.

If EVERYTHING else were the same, but he was a non-Muslim and the children slaughtered were Muslims, I doubt anyone on this board would think of him as one either.

Your entitled to your opinion. Something tells me you dont know the first thing about him.

Great guy he is...but isn't it true he has an obsession with Che Gueverra

Obsession?

No. He did admire him in his younger days whilst living in the communist Soviet state - when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.

Originally Posted by Chechnya

when he came to Islam obviously his views changed.

He's a convert?

Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.

Originally Posted by Chechnya

Salam

He wasnt a convert. Living in the Communist state he was far from religion like most people their and it was only after 1991 and the fall of communism that he started learning about Islam.
He was always a Muslim but not a practicing one. He did say though in his early days his belief in God stopped him from becoming a communist.

Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?

Thanks for clarification... are all Chechens practicing Islam again after the fall of Soviet Union?

I dont think in any nation does everyone practise - Chechnya is probably like any other nation - some do, some dont.

Of course the war has increased the amount of people turning back to Islam.

Your Hero...From Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_...hostage_crisis

"Presumably, the attackers chose this particular day for maximum impact, knowing they could involve a greater number of children."

"Immediately after having gathered all the hostages in the gym, the attackers set about killing about twenty of the adult male hostages, reportedly the strongest in the group.[5][6] The attackers forced other hostages to throw their bodies out of the building and set some children to wash the blood off the floor."

"On day two, many of the young children started to succumb to being denied food and water and being forced to stand up for long periods in the tightly packed and hot gym. Many fainted and the parents feared they would start to die. Occasionally, the terrorists took out some of the unconscious children, and poured water on their heads before returning them to the gym. Reportedly, some resorted to drinking their own urine"

"...However, sexual impropriety allegedly did take place in the form of rape of several of the young children and adolescent girls whose cries and screams could be heard echo through the school according to some survivors.[11] This claim however is controversial, another hostage reports that there were so many shouts and screams that one could not possible distinguish one from others. Surviving hostage Kazbek Dzarasov reports that the terrorists would pick from amongst the prettiest adolescent girls and take them to another room with an excuse of having them fetch water, rape them, and return them a few hours later.[12]"

"As the day and night wore on, the combination of stress and sleep deprivation—and possibly drug withdrawal[16])—made the terrorists increasingly hysterical and unpredictable. The crying of the children irritated them, and on several occasions children and their mothers were threatened that if they didn't stop crying they'd be shot"

"On September 17, 2004, Shamil Basayev issued a statement claiming responsibility for Beslan school siege,[27][28] saying his Riyadus-Salikhin "martyr battalion" had carried out this and other attacks, and further, that the attackers were in heaven and the killed hostages in hell."

What a great guy he was.

Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?

I know he is responsible for the deliberate cold blooded murder of young schoolchildren.

Something tells me you don't care about the deaths of innocents if they are not Muslims. The fact that you would consider such a man a hero says a lot about you.

Something tells me you believe everything bad you hear about Muslims regardless of whther it makes sense or not.

No. He is not responsible for the "deliberate" murder of children. Everything that happened in the school shows that the hostage-takers had no intention of blowing up the place - when the Russians stopped negotiating with them, did they blow up the place? No. That was never the plan. They did nothing they just waited until someone came to their senses and talked to them.

As for who killed most of the children - even Russian parents have come out and said that some of the "terrorists" helped them get out once the firefight started and many have also confimed their kids were shot at from the Russian side.

That brings us to the main point - why did they do it in the first place?

The answer is simple. Russias refusal to observe international law and its cold blooded murder of a 25% of Chechen citizens including about 30,000 children - where is your sympathy and condemnation for the murder oftens of thousands of Chechn children? Why talk about Beslan and not talk about what led to Beslan?

Having said all that - it still doesnt justify what happened in Beslan - it was a massive mistake.

Shamil Basayev recognised his role in it by offering to either go on trial after the war ended or handing himself over immediately to the Russians if the war was stopped.

So he offered to pay the price for what he did and not run away - even if the price was a death sentence.

Now, how man non-muslim leaders - who have murdered thousands of more children than i Beslan - will EVER make such an offer?

Will Bush offer to pay for the tens of thousands of dead Iraqis and Afghans? Will Olmert offer to pay for the dead Lebanese? Will Putin offer to pay for the hundreds of thousands of dead Chechens?

Something tells me, no.

Shamil basayev made a massive mistake - but unlike any other leader he offered to hand himself over and pay the ulimate price for it.

Your Hero...From Wikipedia

A friendly word of advice: dont use wikpedia as a source, you can find all sorts of rubbish, lies and half-truths.

If you are serious about finding out about Basayev and Chechnya in general then you i'll refer you to the many western journalists who covered the Chechen war from both sides and have met all the players in the war many times including Basayev.

Is this really who Muslims want to put forward as a great Islamic hero? Almost 200 dead schoolchildren (that's not counting the dead adults).

I know I shouldn't make inferences about the entire Muslim world on the opinion of one person so I ask...What do the other Muslim posters on this site say? Is Basayev a hero to you?

Shamil Basayev also saved a hundred thousand lives in the first war ny defeating the rampaging russians and forcing them out of the country. Even the Americans were in love with him.
Shamil Basayev is a hero to some, maybe not to others (like your good self) - it all depends if you have any knowledege of him.
No-one supports Beslan but that doenst mean you dont support Basayev. An example: When the great Muslim leader Khalid bin Waleed (ra) committed a wrong action during war, the Prophet (saw) said " I am free of what Khalid did" - meaning he didnt support that action, condemned IT but not the person himself since Khalid Bin Waleed (ra) had learnt the wrongness of what he did.
Similarly most people dont support Beslan and are happy Shamil basayev recognised his massive error, offered to go on trial for it and pay in full - but dont distance themselves from his fight, only his wrong actions.

As for him being a "hero", just read about his military actions, bravery, skill against a vastly superior enemy - some even glorified by the American military for whom he became essential reading - to see why this is so. A flawed hero no doubt - mainly because of his inability to control his temper (unlike Aslan Maskhadov who was always cool) as he watched his people being wiped out - and that led him to extreme measures as Beslan.

Sorry for going on a bit. If you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask.

Salam

The terrorists didn't plan to blow up the building, but they rigged the gym with explosives anyway? There is no justification for what happened in Beslan. As much as I might sympathize with what has happened in Chechnya, the deliberate murder of hundreds of children puts these "martyrs" in the same category as those they believe are oppressing them. They are murderers, pure and simple. What happened in Beslan pretty much put an end to any international sympathy for the Chechens, and now Russia will have an easier time doing whatever it feels necessary.

You condemned Beslan and then stated it was the "international community's" fault that is happened. While I agree that more pressure should have been put on Putin to alter the conduct of the conflict, that in no way excuses or justifies the evil that occurred in Beslan. I understand that you aren't condoning what happened, but in a way you are justifying an evil act by pointing to the evil acts of another. I remember you comparing Shamil Basayev to William Wallace, who while much more brutal than the movie Braveheart would lead one to believe, would have never resorted to the slaughter of hundreds of children.