Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World

Chechnya · **Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

Propaganda is a powerful tool and a tool that Russia likes to employ often. This tool has been well used in the Chechen conflict and especially well used again one man in particular - Shamil Basayev.

Terrorist, bandit, ******st, criminal - Russia has many words for those who oppose its imperial ambitions. However as meaningless as these words are when coming from professional liars, there are many who fall for them - mainly due to their own ignorance and preconceived prejudices and beliefs.

If one looks at Shamil Basayev's life, it is a far cry from the inane uttering of the Russian media.

In 1994 Commander Shamil commanded his battalion in the valiant defence of Grozny. Through the leadership of Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev the Mujahideen were able to kill over 2000 Russian soldiers as they defended Grozny.

Following the withdrawal from Grozny Commander Shamil continued to lead the Mujahideen in battles against Russian forces across Chechnya. His most famous operation came in 1995 in the quiet town of Buddenyvosk. Having seen their people being massacred, being raped and tortured - Shamil led a desperate band of men into Russia in a suicidal bid to stop the killing.

Buddenyvosk turned out to be a major incident in the war. In fact many journalists who covered the war (like Calotta Gall) called Buddenyvosk the "turning point in the war". Buddenyvosk forced Russians to withdraw from many Chechen towns and villages and to try negotiations for a certain period of time.

The Chechen Mujahideen used this time to re-infiltrate villages that were once evacuated, to build up their forces and stockpile weapons. They organised themselves under the central command of General Aslan Maskhadov and when the hostilities resumed the Mujahideen had used the time - that Shamil had bought them through his Buddenyvosk operation - to devastating effect.

In August 1996 the Mujahideen showed their military skill and ability once more in one of the most shocking operations of recent military history.

Over 1500 Mujahideen led by Commander Shamil attacked Grozny from three sides. Within days they had overrun much of the city, destroying Russian checkpoints, surrounding Russian barracks and forcing the Russians from out of the city.

It was the decisive operation of the first war. The Russian army were defeated and forced to withdraw.

Unable to defeat the Chechen Mujahideen and Commander Shamil militarily, the Russians started the propaganda campaign - a campaign that much of the western world has accepted.

However in the Caucaus and Islamic worlds such propaganda campaigns have no effect. Most people recognise that when the whole world turned away from the Chechen people - leaving them to be massacred, raped and tortured - men like Shamil Basayev stood up to stop the tyranny.

To the west and Russia he may always be "Terrorist no.1" but to the Islamic peoples he will go down in history as the Commander who defeated the might of the Russian army and stopped the war. He will be remembered as someone who never backed down and fought and died like a warrior.

Keltoi · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

I've never equated the Chechen conflict with the issue of terrorism, or at least I didn't before the Beslan incident. Beslan aside, I think those who even know what Chechnya is understand that the Chechens suffered brutally under the Russians. I don't know much about this guy, so I'm not going to join in the hero worship, but there is alot of sympathy out there for the Chechen cause. This is one of the sticking points that popped up between President Bush and President Putin. Putin wanted Bush to publicly equate the Chechen conflict with the phenomenon of international terrorism, and Bush didn't do so. At least not until the Beslan massacre.

Chechnya · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

Salam Keltoi

Its not hero-worship, its just recognising what he has done.

Beslan was a mistake - even though they didnt expect any children to die it was still a very bad move. He did regret the deaths of the children and offered to either go on trial when the war was over or hand himself over immediately to the Russians if they stopped the war.
Also after Beslan he changed his tactics and went back to military methods after being convinced by the Chechen president.

Keltoi · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

I should probably look it up myself, but you seem to know alot about the Chechen conflict. What is the situation at the present time?

Chechnya · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

Salam

Now it isnt a Russian-Chechen war - it has become a Russian-North Caucaus war.

Over the last few years new fronts had been established as people from places like Dagestan, Ingushetia. Ossetia etc. joined Chechen fighters in resisting the criminal Russians.

Now fighters operate across the whole North Caucaus making it a lot more difficult for Russia.

Russians say they are winning because they have killed alot of the main leaders like Maskhadov, Sadullayev and especially Basayev - but the actions on the ground contradict their claim.

duskiness · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

Keltoi · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-13-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by duskiness

Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

This is how I felt too. I know that the Russians have been very brutal and savage in their actions, but what happened in Beslan, the theater, etc have done nothing but aid Moscow in convincing the world it is a terrorist enemy they face, regardless of the fact their terrorism has been just as brutal against the civilians in Chechnya.

Chechnya · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

Quote:

Hi Chechnya,
I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev.

But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong.
And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong.

Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero

Salam Duskiness

Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.

But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace

north_malaysian · 03:34 AM

Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?

I've heard that now it's between Russia vs. Georgia, as Russia wants South Ossetia incorporated into North Ossetia.

duskiness · 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by north_malaysian

Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?

why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by north_malaysian

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians...

because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.

Chechnya · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

Quote:

Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article?

Salam Bro

I think Chechnya is not so popular in the Muslim world after the Chechens condemned Hamas for stabbing them in the back.

Even though it was Hamas who did the back-stabbing, ost Muslims still seem support them - at the expense of Chechnya - and take no notice of their evil actions.

I think sub-conciously (sp?) many maybe think an Arab is more important than a non-Arab - thats the only reason i can think of.

Quote:

Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too?

Tatars arent. Its only the countries directly linked to Chechna like Dagestan, Ingushetia etc.
Ossetia is mainly Christian but there are still Muslims their who have now joined the fight. Only a few weeks ago the Ossetian Jamaat said it would start targeting Russian military helicopters and a couple of days later it shot down a helicopter and killed about 15 soldiers.

Quote:

because it's not a conflict between religions but between nations.

I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.

duskiness · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

Salam/ Peace Chechnya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chechnya

Buddenyvosk is a complicated matter - but if i were forced to give an answer i would say it had to happen.
Not because i wanted Russian civilians to die (most of whom were killed by the russians) but because Buddenyvosk led to a ceasefire and was the begininning of the end of the war.

As you probably know Shamil Basayev didnt plan to take a hospital in Buddenyvosk - their plan was to reach the kremlin and atack the people who started the genocidal war and go down fighting in Moscow. They only ended up in Buddenyvosk when they got caught by Russian police.

Like it or not, Buddenyosk saved thousands and thousads of Chechen lives.

It was because of the success of saving Chechen lives in Buddenyvosk that Basayev tried Beslan. It was a very very bad move and i was happy that he offered to pay the price and go on trial.

That's utilitarian way of thinking. And i disagree with it. Fact that this action brought (for a moment!) peace to Chechnya, fact that killing those people save other lives, doesn't still make it anything good, moral, acceptable or something, for which i would think high of Basayev. I think, that it was the moment, when he started his way, that in the end leaded to Beslan. (it seems you have similar opinion)

Quote:

But Buddenyosk isnt why he is a hero - its because of he's outstanding military ability which has defeated the Russians before. It was Shamil Baayev that led the brilliant counter-attack on Grzony, defeating the Russians and forcing them out.
Even the American military admires him - one American Major said it was Basayev who had forced Russia to its knees and attributed the Chechen success to his leaderhip - he compared him to William Wallace

Does outstanding military abilities make someone a hero? Hero is -as i see it- some who "fought a good fight".

Quote:

I think it is religious now - especially as the Christian authorities give blessings to Russian soldiers before they go and kill and rape in Chechnya.
Chechen fighters are motivated by religion too as you can see in their statements and slogans.
But essentially you are right - this isnt Muslims vs Christian , its Russia vs North Caucaus.

Those Russian soldier are fighting to keep Moscow power in the land where no one wants it. There is little place for religion there...

Ps: if I'm not too nosy - are you coming form there?

snakelegs · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

starfortress · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by snakelegs

what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location?

They being haunted from the old memories of USSR super power-its all about Prestige.They cannot stand to lose more territories after the fallen of Soviet Union.

Maybe bro Chechnya have the better answer

snakelegs · **Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World -** 11-14-2006

but the problem with russians and chechnya predates the collapse of the soviet union, doesn't it?
i think what you say is partially true but that it is more complex.
if i remember right what i've read, the whole population of chechnya was exiled during WW2 because the russians didn't trust them.

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	(#1 (permalink))
Chechnya Full Member Status: Offline Posts: 263 Reputation: 1036 Rep Power: 26 Join Date: Feb 2006 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 Propaganda is a powerful tool and a tool that Russia likes to employ often. This tool has been well used in the Chechen conflict and especially well used again one man in particular - Shamil Basayev. Terrorist, bandit, ******st, criminal - Russia has many words for those who oppose its imperial ambitions. However as meaningless as these words are when coming from professional liars, there are many who fall for them - mainly due to their own ignorance and preconceived prejudices and beliefs. If one looks at Shamil Basayev's life, it is a far cry from the inane uttering of the Russian media. In 1994 Commander Shamil commanded his battalion in the valiant defence of Grozny. Through the leadership of Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev the Mujahideen were able to kill over 2000 Russian soldiers as they defended Grozny. Following the withdrawal from Grozny Commander Shamil continued to lead the Mujahideen in battles against Russian forces across Chechnya. His most famous operation came in 1995 in the quiet town of Buddenyvosk. Having seen their people being massacred, being raped and tortured - Shamil led a desperate band of men into Russia in a suicidal bid to stop the killing. Buddenyvosk turned out to be a major incident in the war. In fact many journalists who covered the war (like Calotta Gall) called Buddenyvosk the "turning point in the war". Buddenyvosk forced Russians to withdraw from many Chechen towns and villages and to try negotiations for a certain period of time. The Chechen Mujahideen used this time to re-infiltrate villages that were once evacuated, to build up their forces and stockpile weapons. They organised themselves under the central command of General Aslan Maskhadov and when the hostilities resumed the Mujahideen had used the time - that Shamil had bought them through his Buddenyvosk operation - to devastating effect. In August 1996 the Mujahideen showed their military skill and ability once more in one of the most shocking operations of recent military history. Over 1500 Mujahideen led by Commander Shamil attacked Grozny from three sides. Within days they had overrun much of the city, destroying Russian checkpoints, surrounding Russian barracks and forcing the Russians from out of the city. It was the decisive operation of the first war. The Russian army were defeated and forced to withdraw. Unable to defeat the Chechen Mujahideen and Commander Shamil militarily, the Russians started the propaganda campaign - a campaign that much of the western world has accepted. However in the Caucaus and Islamic worlds such propaganda campaigns have no effect. Most people recognise that when the whole world turned away from the Chechen people - leaving them to be massacred, raped and tortured - men like Shamil Basayev stood up to stop the tyranny. To the west and Russia he may always be "Terrorist no.1" but to the Islamic peoples he will go down in history as the Commander who defeated the might of the Russian army and stopped the war. He will be remembered as someone who never backed down and fought and died like a warrior.

	(#2 (permalink))
Keltoi IB Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 5,376 Reputation: 9219 Rep Power: 38 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Oklahoma, USA Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 I've never equated the Chechen conflict with the issue of terrorism, or at least I didn't before the Beslan incident. Beslan aside, I think those who even know what Chechnya is understand that the Chechens suffered brutally under the Russians. I don't know much about this guy, so I'm not going to join in the hero worship, but there is alot of sympathy out there for the Chechen cause. This is one of the sticking points that popped up between President Bush and President Putin. Putin wanted Bush to publicly equate the Chechen conflict with the phenomenon of international terrorism, and Bush didn't do so. At least not until the Beslan massacre.

	(#3 (permalink))
Chechnya Full Member Status: Offline Posts: 263 Reputation: 1036 Rep Power: 26 Join Date: Feb 2006 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 Salam Keltoi Its not hero-worship, its just recognising what he has done. Beslan was a mistake - even though they didnt expect any children to die it was still a very bad move. He did regret the deaths of the children and offered to either go on trial when the war was over or hand himself over immediately to the Russians if they stopped the war. Also after Beslan he changed his tactics and went back to military methods after being convinced by the Chechen president.

	(#4 (permalink))
Keltoi IB Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 5,376 Reputation: 9219 Rep Power: 38 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Oklahoma, USA Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 I should probably look it up myself, but you seem to know alot about the Chechen conflict. What is the situation at the present time?

	(#5 (permalink))
Chechnya Full Member Status: Offline Posts: 263 Reputation: 1036 Rep Power: 26 Join Date: Feb 2006 Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 Salam Now it isnt a Russian-Chechen war - it has become a Russian-North Caucaus war. Over the last few years new fronts had been established as people from places like Dagestan, Ingushetia. Ossetia etc. joined Chechen fighters in resisting the criminal Russians. Now fighters operate across the whole North Caucaus making it a lot more difficult for Russia. Russians say they are winning because they have killed alot of the main leaders like Maskhadov, Sadullayev and especially Basayev - but the actions on the ground contradict their claim.

	(#6 (permalink))
duskiness Credo quia absurdum Status: Offline Posts: 434 Reputation: 735 Rep Power: 23 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: at the gloomy sea Gender: Way of Life: Christian	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-13-2006 Hi Chechnya, I whole heartedly support Chechnya. I'm Polish, and as many, many of my compatriots I feel "connected" to that fight. in our capitol one of the biggest roundabouts is named after Dudajev. But i disagree with what you wrote. Buddenyvosk was wrong. Taking whole hospital, more than 1500 people (women, children and infants among them) hostage is wrong. And i feel that calling someone who ordered it and organized a "hero" is wrong. Please don't say than it was done because Russians commit even worst crimes in Caucasus. I would agree that may be true. But it still doesn't make action in Buddenyvosk right or Basajev a hero __________________ The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.

	(#9 (permalink))
north_malaysian IB Oldskool Status: Offline Posts: 8,459 Reputation: 22729 Rep Power: 61 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Penang Island, Malaysia Gender: Way of Life: Muslim	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-14-2006 Why only Christians responding to Chechnya's article? Now the whole Caucasus region against Russia? Why? I thought Ossetian are Christians... why they want to go against Russia? How about Tatars and Bashkirs.. are they supporting Chechens too? I've heard that now it's between Russia vs. Georgia, as Russia wants South Ossetia incorporated into North Ossetia. __________________ Assalamualaykum... I am back!! Last edited by north_malaysian; 11-14-2006 at 03:34 AM..

	(#13 (permalink))
snakelegs nusrat fanatic Status: Offline Posts: 6,217 Reputation: 28595 Rep Power: 66 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: California Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-14-2006 what is russia's real motive in chechnya - oil? strategic location? __________________ each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles question authority

	(#15 (permalink))
snakelegs nusrat fanatic Status: Offline Posts: 6,217 Reputation: 28595 Rep Power: 66 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: California Way of Life: Agnostic	Re: Shamil Basayev - Hero of the Caucasus and the Islamic World - 11-14-2006 but the problem with russians and chechnya predates the collapse of the soviet union, doesn't it? i think what you say is partially true but that it is more complex. if i remember right what i've read, the whole population of chechnya was exiled during WW2 because the russians didn't trust them. __________________ each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles question authority