Originally Posted by IzakHalevas

There is a place I would love to pray but since it is under full Muslim control courtesy of the Israeli goverment, I was unable to when I tried to visit.

Actually, a non-Muslim who visits there can be kicked out if they utter a word of prayer by the Muslim authorities in charge of the site. So I think we can all relate to one another after all.

Last time I heard, the Wailing Wall is under Jewish control. As for al-Aqsa, it is a Masjid, and has always been a Masjid, so it belongs to Muslims. Couldn't you just pray on part of the temple mount that does not have a Masjid on it?

No matter what happens, al-Aqsa will probably never be given to Jews by the Muslims, because in holiness it's only two places down from Makkah. Muslims Also believe in Solomon (pbuh), so the Temple is also a very important place for us too, kind of like an 'old Makkah', if I wanted to explain it in simple terms. So the Temple Mount cannot be some sort of 'Jews only' holy place. It wasn't 'stolen' like the Corboda Mosque, it has been a holy place to Muslims since it was founded.

Last time I heard, the Wailing Wall is under Jewish control. As for al-Aqsa, it is a Masjid, and has always been a Masjid, so it belongs to Muslims.

Oh really? There was never a Temple that was devoted to a different type of riualistic worship that had nothing to do with Islam before the two Mosques on the Temple Mount were built? Are these just Zionist lies to?

So the Temple Mount cannot be some sort of 'Jews only' holy place.

Then why can it be a "muslim only" holy place?

It wasn't 'stolen' like the Corboda Mosque, it has been a holy place to Muslims since it was founded.

Jews believe and I believe have a lot of historical proof that the Temple and sacrifices that occured on the Temple mount longe before the Quran were according to the Jewish tradition, since there was no Islamic one.

An Islamic presence in the Holy Land is relativly new compared to others. And please don't get started on "early jews were muslims" because that is as useless of an argument as quoting the Quran to prove a point to a Christian is.

Manchesterfolk, first of all - the Qur'an actually refutes the christians so it isn't useless.


Regarding the early jews being muslims, yeh they were because muslim linguistically comes from the root word islaam which actually means submission. Therefore a muslim is someone who submits, which means that the early jews were actually muslims because they submitted to God.



Peace.

Manchesterfolk, first of all - the Qur'an actually refutes the christians so it isn't useless.

How? Christians do not believe it to be the truth, so in a debate it is useless to quote the Quran.

Regarding the early jews being muslims, yeh they were because muslim linguistically comes from the root word islaam which actually means submission. Therefore a muslim is someone who submits, which means that the early jews were actually muslims because they submitted to God.

Well that is just one opinion, that you may accept but many don't.

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

How? Christians do not believe it to be the truth, so in a debate it is useless to quote the Quran.

They might not, but at the same time it refutes their points. So unlike the bible, where 'you have to read it with the spirit' - one can read the Qur'an and realise its logic and truth. The only reason someone will reject it is due to their own arrogance, not because of the Qur'an itself.

Well that is just one opinion, that you may accept but many don't.

Even if you don't accept it, linguistically its correct. Judaism just comes from the word Juda anyway, so its not really anything to do with their faith. Even jews nowadays are muslims if they've submitted themselves.



Peace.

Originally Posted by snakelegs

i know this was built by muslims, but would it be permissable under islam to prostate in prayer in a cathedral full of statues, etc.?

The prophet Prayed and salah in a church i think in abisynya

'have to read it with the spirit'

What?

Even if you don't accept it, linguistically its correct. Judaism just comes from the word Juda anyway, so its not really anything to do with their faith

That is the English word, the word for Jew in Hebrew is "Yehudi". But why explain this, I can point to where I learned it from instead.

http://www.islamicboard.com/471156-post420.html (Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!)

Originally Posted by therebbe

The word "Jew" comes from the word "Yehudi" in Hebrew.

The Talmud (Megillah 13a) says that the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted ).

The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.

So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.

Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk

What?

Yeah, thats what i mean. I'll quote you something which glo's posted regarding this.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

[...]

We preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. (1Corinthians 18-19 and 23-25)

http://www.islamicboard.com/611271-post10.html (we shall worship none but God)


She posted that just today when AvarAllahNoor asked her regarding the trinity which you can refer to here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/611264-post9.html (we shall worship none but God)


God doesn't send down a faith which can't be comprehended by the human mind. Because God knows that we are His creation, so He sends messengers to make the message clear, that God doesn't want us to worship and obey the creation if these people are contradicting the law of God. The only reason someone would reject islaam is because they either don't understand its truth, or if they just too arrogant to learn more about it/accept it.

That is the English word, the word for Jew in Hebrew is "Yehudi". But why explain this, I can point to where I learned it from instead.

http://www.islamicboard.com/471156-post420.html (Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!)

Why the Jews were called `Yahud

The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa [Moses], who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said,


[إِنَّا هُدْنَـآ إِلَيْكَ]


http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=2196




Peace.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Even jews nowadays are muslims if they've submitted themselves.

I disagree here, since Jews don't follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), which is now one of the prerequisites of being Muslim. And despite being monotheists, modern Jews do have a number of beliefs which would not be acceptable within Islam, such as their beliefs about the Messiah.

Originally Posted by Fishman

I disagree here, since Jews don't follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), which is now one of the prerequisites of being Muslim. And despite being monotheists, modern Jews do have a number of beliefs which would not be acceptable within Islam, such as their beliefs about the Messiah.

I meant linguistically only bro

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

I meant linguistically only bro

But if they do not accept the Laws revealed to Muhammad (pbuh), they have not sumitted to God (swt).

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

I meant linguistically only bro

Then why use it as a supportive arguement? The topic was not about linguistics.

Why the Jews were called `Yahud

The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa [Moses], who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said,

Oh? Where did Moses say "Yahud" means repenting?

I am more inclined to believe the hebrew speaking jew about what "yehud" means rather than a vague islamic site.

Originally Posted by SilentObserver

Then why use it as a supportive arguement? The topic was not about linguistics.

Because this off-topic argument that I probably started is about liguistics!

I said that the early Jews were Muslims (therefore meaning that Muslims have just as much right to the Temple as Jews), so, naturally, somebody disagreed with me and said they were not. Then Fi-Sab joined in and said that they were by definition, since a Muslim is a person who submits to God (swt).

I would say that they were also Muslims because they believed in the first part of the Shahada, that there is no God (swt) but God (swt).

Originally Posted by Fishman

Because this off-topic argument that I probably started is about liguistics!

I said that the early Jews were Muslims (therefore meaning that Muslims have just as much right to the Temple as Jews), so, naturally, somebody disagreed with me and said they were not. Then Fi-Sab joined in and said that they were by definition, since a Muslim is a person who submits to God (swt).

I would say that they were also Muslims because they believed in the first part of the Shahada, that there is no God (swt) but God (swt).

I will attempt to tie this back to the topic.

Using the 'linguistically speaking' arguement does not really say anything (pardon the pun). The reality is, we all know the difference between a jew and a muslim, and we all know who we are talking about when we speak of a 'muslim'. For the sake of clarity, we all know that we are speaking of a follower of the prophet Mohammud. To often this 'linguistic arguement' is brought up as a red herring to distract from the main topic of discussion. It is a debate tactic to confuse one's opponent. An annoying one I might add.
So, let's not try to confuse the issue anymore and stick to the topic.

There are holy places that important to jews that muslims have taken and built on, christians have muslim places and built over, etc. etc. I don't think anyone is going to be giving anything back anytime soon. Ownership rules, and the rules must be respected as set out by the owner. I think there will eventually be a compromise though.