Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Hi jayda.


It's a double sided argument, you as a christian may say that the muslim leaders were oppressive, yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.

no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...

One of the reasons why they aren't allowing the muslims to pray in this masjid is due to the fact that it is a matter of pride for the christians, and i don't blame them for that.

no this is not true... it is canon law... churches may not be deconsecrated for an impious purpose unless it is beyond repair...

It depends on which side of the story you see, obviously the article you linked me to was by a spanish christian, so it would be biased. So i think this arguing is pointless.

why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Peace.

i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...

Originally Posted by Jayda

the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...

Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?

If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.

Originally Posted by Erundur

Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?

no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...

Originally Posted by Fishman

If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.

hola Fishman,

i do not think these things are meant to be traded like cards... the hagia sophia belongs to the turks... they conquered istanbul so it is theirs... maybe someday if they wish they may turn it into a church again but i do not believe they ever will...

the Cathedral of Cordoba belongs to the Church... it belongs to the Catholic Church and is consecrated for Catholic worship... this is the way the world is... we cant live in the 13th century...

Dios te bendiga

Originally Posted by Jayda

no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... people...

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...

Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.



http://www.speroforum.com/site/artic...2C+a+prayer%3F

i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.



Peace.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Maybe because their not labelled christians? Maybe their just labelled under another title? Whereas when muslims do something, its; MUSLIM TERRORIST? or ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS?

They arent labeled Christian because they arent, and really I am not sure who "they" are that you are talking about. You dont see anyone rising up and saying "I am a Catholic, and I am waging a Holy war on you" or "That mosque was a cathedral 700 years ago and we want to use it now".

It is Muslim Terrorist or Islamic extremist because the people that are terrorizing base everything they do around their religion. What should we label these people? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

I asked if any trustworthy scholars agreed to the violence?

GOT ME THERE... Good point, this is a step in the right direction. The more Muslims that disagree with this behaviour and make an effort to end it, the more Islam will not be associated with these radicals.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

They have the right to ask.

And the Church has the right to say no... the question here is what will the response to that be

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

Yeah, but the media is owned by a certain authority who may allow some things to be shown, highlighted more than others etc. I believe that, and i see alot of propaganda against our faith.
Peace.

You may think that the media is owned by the government however this is totally untrue. There are government channels but if you heard some of the things that I hear on the television each day that speaks against our government you may not think the same. There are actually more things on the news that speak badly of our government than Islam, everyday "Bushs public approval is down again" or "Major changes needed in the war in Iraq" or the handling of social security or whatever. The things you speak of are highlighted because they are happening against our people, occur on a daily basis, and stem from a particular religion or following.

PEACE

Edit. Fishman had a better response.
Peace.

Originally Posted by Jayda

no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...

There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

The ummayads settled in spain and yes there was a constant war between the romans and the muslims. However, the muslims lived peacefully with the people who never fought against them. Including the jews and christians.

what romans... spanish people are greek and gaulic... most of those living in spain were visigoth... the muslims did not settle in spain... they sent an army to conquer it, in fact their general burned their ships and made a very great speach about there being nothing behind them and that they must conquer...

Maybe it was because of the constant struggle on who can get hold of the land?

no not at all... many of the things christians did to muslims and jews were based on what was done to them... mosques were reconsecrated as churches, muslims had to pay heavy taxes and wear things that made them stand out as muslims, they created rules that if a muslim was caught preaching islam to a christian they would be killed... but this (just like the muslim rule) was meant to be a political tool to use against muslims... there are many things like this... the only thing the spaniards did not do that i am aware of is slavery...





Robert Duncan is a journalist and ombudsman for foreign press in Spain. He is a board member and honorary vice-president for the Organización de Periodismo y Comunicación Ibero-Americana. Robert was the bureau chief for an international news agency in Madrid for many years, and was published regularly in Dow Jones Newswires, with articles appearing in The Wall Street Journal.

He has also been published in World Catholic News, National Catholic Register, Renew America, Lifesite.net, as well as Capital Hill Coffee House, Common Conservative, The Conservative Voice, Enter Stage Right, News By Us, Conservative Crusader, World Net Daily, Mens News Daily and others.[/quote]

but what does him being a spaniard have to do with the Pope not praying in a mosque?

Muslims can oppress, but islaam doesn't. This usually occurs when muslims judge according to other than the religion of Allaah.

If christians and jews pay the jizya (a small tax) in an islamic state, their blood and honor is protected, they don't have to fight to protect the state and it is only the muslims duty to do that. This is why the jews and christians lived there peacefully, and even rav agreed to this in an earlier post.

this is not true... the jizya was not just a small tax, it was deliberately meant to humiliate the people paying it

and there was much more than a tax there were forced conversions, churches were not allowed to be rebuilt or repaired... that is why the original church was destroyed to make the mezquita, denying Muhammad was a prophet would mean you are executed, christians could be murdered and muslims would not be punished but christians could be accused of murdering a muslim and be killed just because of the accusation, christians could not carry weapons but had to wear distinctive clothing so that they were targets, spanish women were allowed to be taken as wives against their will... there were pogroms against christians... it was very brutal

Peace.

again i do not understand why you are saying this... none of the things you are defending or asking for are peaceful... why are you saying these things about the mistreatment of spanish people?

[QUOTE]
There was no forced conversion when Islam entered Spain, although there were some minor economic restrictions. Persecution began later in the Muslim rule, but conversion still was not forced. But When the Spanish came in, they forced every Muslim and Jew to leave or convert, and even mistreated those who had converted.[quote]

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

according to your argument, the holocaust (which was like the expulsion of the Moors on a larger scale) was justified because the Germans felt angry at the Jews. The Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country, and as I said, persecution of Crhsitians began later, during the Reconquista.

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn... and it is not like the nazis... the nazis created an illusion that the jews were responsible for everything that had happened after the war... muslims actually did invade spain and actually did abuse spanish people.

Moors did nothing to the Spanish except take over the country

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Dios te bendiga

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

Originally Posted by sudais1

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

hola sudais1

my family is originally from andalusia and tejada... but they came to mexico in the 18th century... like many andalusian families we preserve the history of our relatives through an oral tradition...

Dios te bendiga

Originally Posted by sudais1

Jayda which book of lies did you read?

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

Originally Posted by duskiness

sorry but I don't get it....which Jayda's statments you believe to be "lies"?

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

hola duskiness,

yes... i think that is what i was trying to say before about it being a complicated subject for spanish people... because of the muslims there were no dark ages for spain, but at a terrible cost... it is not something that is "welcomed" but the benefits were undeniable... cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

Dios te bendiga