Originally Posted by Jayda

cordoba had lit streets when london was a village

I know Jayda, I have seen Cordoba and its beautiful Cathedral-Mosque. Breathtaking.
Personally I have a sad feeling that this whole issue is only supporting ill feelings between Muslims and Christians. It seems we are ending one "argument" just to start another.

Pan z Toba, Jayda

Originally Posted by sudais1

MTAFFI we don't wake up one morning and say "hey lets cause problems, lets chant the destruction of a country" Muslims are being attacked in every way possible, verbally, mentally, and physically. Its of Human nature in which we retaliate to these attacks.

Actually, it was Osama bin Laden who did this. The whole war with the west (regarding current affairs at least) stems from this man. Saudi Arabia requested military assistance from the US. This angered Osama and he basically said the US wasnt wanted and should leave. So even though he isnt the ruler of a country, he wanted to make a decision for a country, which was for the US not to be involved. So he began his propoganda and lead a campaign against the west. So really the west is simply retailiating to his and his followers attacks.

Originally Posted by sudais1

When we do attack you say we are terrorist. Now what about Israel, Britain, and USA. "Oh no there strong countries so they can't be terrorists but these less stronger countries in the Muslim world are terrorists because they seem to be attacking us".

We dont attack unless we are attacked. Radical Muslims have been attacking the US since the late 80's with relatively no retaliation. Now that we are doing something about it you are the victims? What about all of those you killed in the embassy bombings, etc? The people labeled as terrorists are labeled that because of their confrontational actions and words.

Originally Posted by sudais1

How many regular Muslims walk down the streets and are chanted at "death to Islam".

I have never seen this happen

Originally Posted by sudais1

Imagine some people drew Jesus naked with these women and it was made a whole joke (not is the Muslim world because we believe in him and you guys believe his god). I'm pretty sure you would be pissed. But wait This insult comes at a time in which you are being attacked everyday.

Funny you should ask, I was actually watching an episode called "Family Guy" just the other night. In case you dont know this is an adult cartoon that will say or do outrageous thing typically based on current events. It is really pretty funny. Anyways the other night i saw an episode where Jesus was calling God on a telephone in Heaven asking if he could come home. God says in response that right then just wasnt a good time for him, Jesus sadly hangs up the phone as it cuts back to God rolling back over to a pretty woman and saying "Now where were we?" It even went further to where the woman pulled out a condom and said "right about here". God replies "come on baby it is my Birthday". I have to say I just laughed it off because i know the people who make the show are idiots! I would also say that at this particular time me as an American am attacked daily.

Originally Posted by sudais1

People especially like you don't see the whole picture, you take a glimpse and then come to your conclusion, when you say were whining, find why are they.

I would bet I see more of the picture than you.

Originally Posted by sudais1

Now doesn't seem reasonable that a country leaves their homeland and travels half-way across the world to take a countries oil. Then they blame the reason on some other thing.

This is ridiculous, you let me know when we see a drop of free oil from the middle east!! lol I laugh everytime I see someone put this on this site. These are the types of ridiculous theories that make so many people look so dim witted. In 20 years we wont even need this oil anyways, not to mention how fast it is running out. Why would we just now go to war over this? If we wanted it for free we would have taken it 20 years ago or even 50 or 100 years ago.

Originally Posted by sudais1

Does seem proper and normal, I say Muslims are facing a humanitarian crisis. People want them out of existence ,
out of their land, out of there culture, and religion. Yet you say we always want to fight. Now does that comment seem fair I don't think so

You are facing a crisis. The more of your people that act out in unacceptable ways the worse the image of Islam will become, on the other hand the sooner you publicly condemn the behaviour of the ones trashing your religion and take action against them the view of Islam will be restored to what it should be. The war against Islam is not a war the US is fighting or any other nation for that matter. The war against Islam is a war against itself, there are many many people in your religion who use your religion as a reason to kill and justify their own actions, you as a people and a religion must stop this if you ever want this "crisis" to end.

Peace

i think maybe everything that can be said about this topic has been said and now we are just becomming unrestled... could we perhaps drop this subject?

gracias...

Originally Posted by Jayda

hola Fishman,

there were many forced conversions under muslim rule... adn that is not the least of the things muslims did to spanish people...

My source on my comments is Wikipedia, which is a rather Islamophobic place. The truth is that whilst there may have been one or two forced conversions, there was no stake burning, no inquisition, no forced emmigration.

i am not talking about a justification... i am saying you can see the anger spanish people felt about what the muslims did to them in what they did in turn...

Again, Spanish crimes were much worse than the crimes of the Moors. There was no Moorish inquisition, the Visgoths converted slowly and under no complusion. It was not until the 11th century that Muslims outnumbered Christians in Spain.

this attitude scares me very much... why are you all speaking so lightly of invading people...

Genocide is much worse than invasion. What the Moors did was relatively slowly and peacefully replace the vishgoth culture. The Spanish viciously destroyed hundreds of years of Islamic culture in a few years. If Palestine gets it's freedom, I certainly would not want the Jewish settlers who had been born there to be kicked out.

Originally Posted by Fishman

Genocide is much worse than invasion.

But invading is still wrong, isn't it? That was - as I see it - Jayda's point. This Cathedral-Mosque is standing in a place which was pogan, Christian, Muslim and again Christian.
Just like Hagia Sophia was Christian and no longer is. We all lost something.
God gave, God took, blessed be His Name.

i really think now is a good stopping point... we all know what each other thinks...

Greetings and peace be with you all;

I was overjoyed to read the opening post by sonz, it seems the motivation for the Muslims to use the Cathedral would be opportunities for bridge building, peace and reconciliation between Muslims and Christian.

God owns everything, we are but temporary custodians of God’s creation. We are all created by the same God, we are bickering about something that we could share. Where is the spirit of love your neighbour as you love yourself? Where is the spirit of Christians seeking peace and reconciliation with our Muslim brothers and sisters?

It is in our hands to dare to be different, what would Christ advocate for today?

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship and brotherhood,

Eric

And we have Eric to the rescue! Simmer the heat guys...

Originally Posted by sudais1

MTAFFI your to arrogant to understand anything, if you weren't you would actually understand what's going on

i suppose i could resort to name calling and say the same to you, however i will not. I understand that this thread is about why the poor poor Muslims cant use a consecrated Cathedral, and want to make a big deal about it because it was theirs almost a millenium ago. What you need to understand is this isnt a Mosque, and hopefully it never will be. I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

Originally Posted by MTAFFI

I am all up for interfaith relations however why do we have to make concessions? No one in the Catholic faith is saying you have to give us something to get along better, how about just get along and we dont give you anything and you dont give us anything. Why is there this thought that the Muslims are owed something? We owe you nothing

PEACE

Arent muslim women being increasingly asked to give up their hijabs and veils?
what about the calling of the adhan for the community to hear?

U say that u owe us nothing? what about our rights? dont the west boast of being the lands of the free and equal?

Originally Posted by duskiness

Spain was CONQUERED by Muslims (North Africa also...). Nobody likes to be conquered and ruled by invaders. So I doubt they loved it.
It doesn't change a fact, that Al-Andalus was probably the most developed civilisation at that time

Hi duskiness.......i just want to remind u that places all over the world has been conquered and are now ruled by invaders.....

Originally Posted by sameer

Arent muslim women being increasingly asked to give up their hijabs and veils?
what about the calling of the adhan for the community to hear?

U say that u owe us nothing? what about our rights? dont the west boast of being the lands of the free and equal?

I personally havent seen them being asked to give up their veils, I understand that this is being asked in England and some other places in Europe but it hasnt been banned and probably wont. If it does then this could be a valid argument.

What about the calling of adhan? Not everyone wants to hear this, not to mention there is a separation of church in state in most countries, if you want this you need to go to a country that is under Islamic rule.

Every Muslim where i live has their rights, or at least the same rights as everyone else, so again i am not sure what you are talking about.

and just to make it clear no one owes you anything.

Originally Posted by sudais1

MTAFFI your to arrogant to understand anything, if you weren't you would actually understand what's going on

What is going on then?

please stop baiting each other...

Originally Posted by MTAFFI

I personally havent seen them being asked to give up their veils, I understand that this is being asked in England and some other places in Europe but it hasnt been banned and probably wont. If it does then this could be a valid argument.

What about the calling of adhan? Not everyone wants to hear this, not to mention there is a separation of church in state in most countries, if you want this you need to go to a country that is under Islamic rule.

Every Muslim where i live has their rights, or at least the same rights as everyone else, so again i am not sure what you are talking about.

and just to make it clear no one owes you anything.

it has been banned in schools in various european countries.
Maybe muslims have their rights where u live.....buh then again...that may be just your opinion.
So someone owes u something? if this is your attitude then we owe u no respect either nor do we owe u your human rights etc etc etc