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Default Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques
Richard Kerbaj
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...82-601,00.html

SENIOR Muslim leaders have called for the Australian flag to be flown outside the nation's mosques as an expression of the Islamic community's "loyalty" and commitment to this country.
Muslim clerics yesterday urged Australia's 300,000 Muslims to back the idea as a symbol of "integration" and pride.
The former chairman of the Prime Minister's Muslim reference group, Ameer Ali, pushed the Australian Muslim community yesterday to adopt the flag.

"Even in Muslim countries in the mosque they fly the national flag ... (such as) in Pakistan. If that can be done in a Muslim country why not in Australia?" Dr Ali said.

He said Muslims opposed to the flag being displayed outside mosques were religiously narrow-minded. "I think they are looking at it from a very narrow, religious angle," he said.

Dr Ali said he spearheaded the initiative of displaying the flag outside Muslim schools owned by the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils when he ran that organisation in 2002.

He also ensured that students sang the national anthem during special functions.

"We are Australian Muslims," he said. "And it (the flag) is a symbol of our national identity."

One of Australia's most respected female Muslim leaders, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said displaying a national flag outside mosques would not conflict with Islamic teachings.

"Putting the Australian flag (outside mosques is) a good sign of integration, of being at one with everyone else in this country and our pride in being Australian," said Sister Abdel-Halim, also a former senior member of John Howard's Muslim advisory body.

"I don't see anything at all that would contradict Islamic teachings in any way. It would be a nice gesture to have it, especially now that Muslims really need to underline the fact that they are loyal to this country."

Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.

Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.

But the move, backed by several LMA board executives, to display the flag outside Lakemba Mosque, in Sydney's southwest, were staunchly opposed by some community members.

It is understood that the LMA's proposal came after a Muslim man tore down the Australian flag from the Lakemba office of the Mufti of Australia, Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, last year and stomped on it to express his opposition to it.

It is believed that Sheik Hilali - who recently labelled Westerners liars and oppressors and said Australia belonged more to Muslim immigrants who "paid for our passports" than Anglo-Saxon convicts - reprimanded the man before ordering him from the office, on the same premises as the mosque.

But Muslim leader Keysar Trad said last night some community members would consider the idea of displaying the flag as "politicising a place of worship".

"I have no problem with the flag being at Muslim schools, but a place of worship is for all people to be equal and as such I believe places of worship should maintain the tradition of not raising the national flag," Mr Trad said.

And prominent Sydney-based Islamic cleric, Khalil Shami, expressed fears yesterday that hoisting the flag outside mosques would lead to potential violence and further division within the community among factions opposed to the idea.

Comment:

Its quite funny how these so called religious leaders say that being loyal to a nation state which is based on non-Islam is compatible with the teachings of islam, yet they fail to provide a single reference from Islamic sources. Maybe its because Islam obliges loyalty to Islam and the ummah only.

In terms of integrating into western society Muslims are prepared to do that, but not at the cost of losing our identity as many other communities have done already.

In their quest to be loyal to Australia and to integrate fully maybe these imams should lead by example and allow their sons and daughters to sunbath, go to nightclubs and pubs and engage in relationships with the opposite sex, after all this is quite normal and acceptable nowadays and only the backward and ignorant Islamic fundamentalists oppose such activities as being decadent and wicked.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

Well, I hope the muslim in australia are not so stupid to do such an act.

Using statement like "this idiot did it so I am allowed to be an idiot too." is not an excuse.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

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Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.
I have seen the American flag flown on many churches. In fact, American flags are inside of every Catholic Church I have been to, next to the Vatican flag. I cant speak for protestant, evangelical or Orthodox churches.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

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I have seen the American flag flown on many churches. In fact, American flags are inside of every Catholic Church I have been to, next to the Vatican flag. I cant speak for protestant, evangelical or Orthodox churches.
Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

Hmm, is that a good idea? It is allowed?
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

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I could be wrong but I believe that because of our seperation of church and state laws it would be illegal to fly a USA flag on a Mosque, Church, Synagogue or any religious building.

I know I have never seen it flown on any.

I believe you are mistaken Woodrow.

It is the Governmental institutions that have to be careful about public displays of religious symbols, not the other way around.

The Constitution prohibits the "establishment of a state religion", it does not prohibit people of faith from showing allegiance to their country.

There is one fine point. Religious entities with tax exemptions cannot openly endorse poltical candidates. They can urge their members to seek out candidates with similar viewpoints but they aren't suppose to say "Vote for xxxxx"

By the way, I think Dr. Ali's idea is a good one. It might go a long way toward alleviating questions of loyalty, even if it chiefly symbolic.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

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Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.
I will definitely take a better look tomorrow and get back to you as to the outside display.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

The applicable portion of the US Bill of Rights is:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


The phrase "separation of Church and State" is not actually in the Constitution (or any other law I know of). It is from a famous letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists. Here is an excerpt:


Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.


This was cited in at least one Supreme Court decision as evidence of the "original intent" of the authors.

Note that the clear proscritption in the Bill of Rights is to restirct the Government vis a vis a State religion. This, of course, was a sore subject because of the experience of many Colonists with the Church of England. Putting a US flag on your property is an act of Freedom of Speech, which is ironically protected in the same amendment. In fact, buring or disgracing a flag is a protected free speech act.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-17-2007

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Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
Yes, on the inside, but not flying from the Church on the outside in Public view.
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
It would be impossible for congress to outlaw flying the flag on a church, because it would require passing a law against free speech by a church which is clearly outlawed by the 1st amendment. Separation of church and state makes a nice sound byte but it is not in the constitution.
   
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-18-2007

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It would be impossible for congress to outlaw flying the flag on a church, because it would require passing a law against free speech by a church which is clearly outlawed by the 1st amendment. Separation of church and state makes a nice sound byte but it is not in the constitution.
You are correct.

I had just never seen a flag displayed on the outside of any religious building. I was making an assumption, based simply on observation, without questioning the observation.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-18-2007

Now getting back to the original topic.

I believe for a Mosque to fly a national flag would be wrong. If for no other reason it gives the impression that the Mosque is a servent of the nation. Now there is nothing wrong with the members of a Mosque to offer support to a just Nation, but they should never give the impression that Islam is a sevent of the Nation.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-18-2007

Is that allowed Islamically?
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-18-2007

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Is that allowed Islamically?
I have been trying to find reference as to what would prohibit it in Islam. My own personal feeling is that this is placing something as an equal to Allah(SWT). I feel that for a Mosque to diplay a National Flag, is dangerously close to promoting shirk.

It will take a scholar to say if that is a correct view, but for myself and seeing a possibility it would be haram I would say do not take the chance, unless somebody can offer evidence that it is not haram.
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Default Re: Muslim clerics push for flags to be flown on mosques - 02-18-2007

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Another respected imam, Amin Hady, said it would be especially important for the Australian flag to be flown outside mosques on special national occasions, such as Anzac Day and Australia Day. "That is to me a good idea to reaffirm the commitment of anyone living in this country, including the Muslims who are part of the population," the Indonesian imam said.

Islamic sources have told The Weekend Australian that the move to fly the flag was discussed by executive members of the Lebanese Muslim Association, one of the Islamic community's most prominent organisations.
^^Does that count? lol

I personally don't agree with the idea, allowed or not. It's just...weird...and unnecessary. You can find a different way to show your loyalty, not label a Masjid(a house of worship) with a "flag." They can for one help fix up the Muslim community and make it better...
What did the Masjid ever do to them??
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Last edited by Light of Heaven; 02-18-2007 at 06:02 AM..
   
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