so you're saying that one shouldnt follow Allah ta'alas orders to lower their gaze then as well? if it seems so important to use the face to tell how a person may "feel" or what not. when communicating between the 2 genders [which should be rare] whys it essetial to know the emotion of the person? you say what you have to say and go on with your life. i agree that certain things in culture shouldnt be practiced, but NIQAAB IS NOT CULTURE AKHI ITS RELIGION.

The guy in the article said 'women should remove the veil'. To me, the 'veil' means the niqaab rather than the hijab.

About blending in, we are taught as Muslims to blend in - i.e. by not wearing bright colours or styles that attract attention to ourselves. However, we are not taught to blend in to such an extent that we lose our own way of life.

In other words: Hijab stays

the title of the article however, is Women to Take off the Hijab that isnt niqaab...

Maybe the author misinterpeted the man's remarks (like half the people in this thread )

Seriously, I'm sure a Muslim leader wouldn't urge women to remove their hijabs.

Originally Posted by Halima

Astaughfirallah this just really amazes me. You know I was very mistakin' I thought it was a non-muslim. But it was a MUSLIM leader? Wow. this just doesn't sound logial to me. I would certainly expect it if was a NON-muslim. But heck no. Not a muslim leader.

salams :sister:[content removed].I don't understand the reason why they're so scared of Bush and Tony Blair.If Allah is with you a 100% then why be scared of the enemy.Like before one guy said that Christianity is men without a religion, and Islam is a religion without man.Beginning to see his point.

Salaam dear sister,


In my personal opinion if they actually tell us to take off the hijab or niquab, then they are not faithful muslims. Instead they are following the non-muslim ideology that women should take off the hijab because they just want us to dress normal like any other man or woman walking down the street. If they want this to happen to us, then why do they call themselves muslims for? They have a different ideology then us, they are practically following the non-muslim ideology which is a shame. Instead of using the constitution " freedom of religion" they are implying that muslim women should not be able to encounter freedom of religion in this society which is a shame. that shouldn't give a hoot in hell about our safety by taking off the hijab if anything they are supposed to encourage us to leave it on. Instead they are follwoing the other "non muslim" ideology, and wait- they are supposed to be leaders..not FOLLOWERS. So what kind of request is this to take off the hijab or niquab? Just as long as Allah(swt) made it an obligation for us to wear hijab we MUST remain wearing hijab we cannot follow a man's order.

:sister: Nooral Haya where in the religion does it say that the niqaab is obligatory for a women to wear.Even scholors are going crazy on each other because of this issue. Some Mujtahid-Imams from the mazahib have taken this view. Another Islamic opinion is that veil has not been made compulsory for women in Islam and that their face do not have to be covered under any circumstance. This view has also been held by some Mujtahid-Imams from amongst the mazahib.

sis Halima couldn't have said it better myself

Originally Posted by Shukri

:sister: Nooral Haya where in the religion does it say that the niqaab is obligatory for a women to wear.Even scholors are going crazy on each other because of this issue. Some Mujtahid-Imams from the mazahib have taken this view. Another Islamic opinion is that veil has not been made compulsory for women in Islam and that their face do not have to be covered under any circumstance. This view has also been held by some Mujtahid-Imams from amongst the mazahib.

I agree 100% Shukri, as a matter of fact there is no where in the quran where it says that niquab is mandatory it is on the basis of one's own will to wear it or not.

I personally call it unatural because of mans greatest tool communication

OK root to begin with Islam doesn't encourage the male and the female sex to have a conversation with each other just for the fun of it. If a women needs to buy something from a shop or store the shop keeper doesn't need to look at her face expression to see what she has in her hand/what she wants to buy, she simply buys the product, leaves the store and goes back to her home or friends.

There she doesn't have to cover her face, she can take the hijab off as long as their are only mehram men there. (mehram - men who cannot get married to her eg. her father, son, grandad, stepson etc.) She can take her hijab off in front of them but she should still remain modest.

In addition, facial recognition plays a very important role to us all wether or not you may acknowledge this. Sub-conciously we use face recognition to build trust & not lust.

You ever noticed how in all these movies when a gurl or guy look at each other they say things such as 'love at first sight.' Now imagine if a women wore a niqaab over her face, could that actually happen? would a guy look at the gurl and go 'i'm in luv' or would he look away cz he believes the gurl'z not worth looking at. That is what happens when most men look at niqaabis and hence the lust doesn't even start off becz he looks away right at the beginning.


As I said, I don't see anything wrong with wearing an Hijab but I fail to see why one needs to cover ones full face.

Refer to what i just said above.

Some cultures in the world today see women not covering up other than genitalia including women (excluding breasts), yet your culture and my culture (I make a destinction) because you have, would not look positively to people walking around naked.

Yeh we wouldn't want that because it would cause alot more fitnah and temptation. Have you ever noticed how in countries such as the US, the rate of rapes is higher then countries where women dress up modestly. The reason for this is because women do not show their bodies. This doesn't cause the temptation for men in the first place hence the lower rate. Something that also decreases the amount of rapists is the fact that in Muslim countries, rape is a major sin and the penalty for it is death. In countries in America or even in the UK the penalty for rape is only a few years in jail.

Let's turn a blind eye to the children physically abused by African Adults due to suspected demon posession, afterall it is their culture and thus they should be free to exercise it......... Surely your position is madness

root, the first Muezzin of the Prophet (salalahu alai hi wasalam) was a black man. Abu Bakr (ra) set him free even though they were a arab. In Islam a Muslim should help free slaves and Islam does not allow Muslims to have slaves in the 1st place. At

the time when Islam was freeing slaves the Europeans and Americans were still taking slaves away from their homelands in slave ships and forcing them to work for them. This carried on even in the 1800s whereas Islam had stopped this 1400 years ago.

If our position is 'madness' I really dont understand how you would feel if Allah (swt) forbid but if someone from your family got raped how you would feel - the person being in jail just for a few years and coming back could attack another innocent girl again and this could change her for life.

Islam is democracy and Allah (swt) created the world and the people inside of it. They know how the people react to diferent situations, and Islam (the word of Allah (swt)) was given to us to protect us. And if you follow what Allah (swt) says insh Allah you will be protected.

I would like to remind members about two things:

1. Root is not a Muslim and therefore we must understand that he is coming from a different perspective to the discussion.

2. While we are expressing our opinions, we should be careful about generalising and categorising a large group of people due to the actions of a few. A few 'Muslim' leaders might express opinions that we find unacceptable, but it is not right to say things about "most Muslim leaders" based on this.

Btw, there are already discussions on Niqab and Hijab in other parts of the forum, so please post there if you wish to discuss the issue in depth.

Jazakallahu Khayr,

Assalamo alaikum

Every good and bad is from Allah (SWT) - our sustainer, our creator and our protector. The hijab is a muslim women's identity and the fact that a 'so- called'- muslim has urged our sisters to remove it, is a disgrace.

Our faith is true and we should be proud to be muslims. Obviously, the current state of affairs does not represent Islam and the beautiful teachings of our beloved prophet Muhammad Mustafa (SAW) and therefore we should not fear anyone but Allah.

In these testing times, we should be steadfast on our faith, remember Allah (SWT) abundantly and engage ourselves in intense invocation.

My humble request to my fellow muslim brothers and sisters is that engage yourselves in greater worship of the one almight Allah (SWT).

In the aftermath of the London bombings, the Dean of the Islamic College urged all Muslims, especially women, to be extra vigilant. He said women should remove their veils as a precaution, since his organization has “received a number of threats on a daily basis. British police, across the country, are being deployed to protect Muslim institutions and the public.” Accordingly, Badawi said, “I have advised women not to wear the veil because it might harm them. A Muslim woman should not wear her veil is she has sufficient reason to believe it may endanger her safety.” He noted that, according to Islam, “clothes are for protection and are not to harm the individual.”

Just clarifying (again) - he never said 'Hijab' or 'headscarf'. He said 'veil', which to me suggests the niqaab; the covering of the face. I think that the author of the article misinterpreted Badawi's remarks. If he had meant to say hijab, surely he would have done. If he thought an English listener would not understand this term, he would have said headscarf.

Can we just let this non-issue go now? Even if he is saying take off your hijab (which I seriously doubt), no one says you have to listen to the guy.

To AQIB.......

All qoutes by Aqib.....

OK root to begin with Islam doesn't encourage the male and the female sex to have a conversation with each other just for the fun of it. If a women needs to buy something from a shop or store the shop keeper doesn't need to look at her face expression to see what she has in her hand/what she wants to buy, she simply buys the product, leaves the store and goes back to her home or friends.

I disagree. given your very uttermost basic assesment. Let us say she bought a pint of milk, and the serving person stated "£1.97 please". One would notice "Surprise" in her face to know something is not right. However, your analogy is quite poor since it would appear thatt women don't have much freedom as far as your concerned for what about going out with friends, work, college hobbies everything that involves "having a life"!!

There she doesn't have to cover her face, she can take the hijab off as long as their are only mehram men there. (mehram - men who cannot get married to her eg. her father, son, grandad, stepson etc.) She can take her hijab off in front of them but she should still remain modest.

Nothing against what you say here, however please note I think the Hijab is a nice thing for Muslim women and my points are only valid to full facial coverage.

You ever noticed how in all these movies when a gurl or guy look at each other they say things such as 'love at first sight.' Now imagine if a women wore a niqaab over her face, could that actually happen? would a guy look at the gurl and go 'i'm in luv' or would he look away cz he believes the gurl'z not worth looking at. That is what happens when most men look at niqaabis and hence the lust doesn't even start off becz he looks away right at the beginning.

Movies! They are not real. Surely we don't take movies literally!!!!!

Again, look at my post and the link. facial awareness creates trust & not lust!!!!!

Yeh we wouldn't want that because it would cause alot more fitnah and temptation.

So you don't mind objecting to other peoples cultures and restricting their practices. A little hypocriticle of you would you not agree.

Have you ever noticed how in countries such as the US, the rate of rapes is higher then countries where women dress up modestly. The reason for this is because women do not show their bodies. This doesn't cause the temptation for men in the first place hence the lower rate. Something that also decreases the amount of rapists is the fact that in Muslim countries,

Now you are just having a luagh. Firstly, care to post the rape statistics for Pakistan & Iran! Before you even bother, most "Muslim" countries don't officially record rape statistics so we don't actually know the numbers. Other facts you ignorantly failed to mention are:

1. In Islamic countries most rapist are charged with adultry not rape.
2. In most Islamic countries you cannot be convicted for raping your wife
3. In most Islamic countries both rape and sexual offences are not recorded from a central location and thus statistical data is not available (How convenient.)

Rape, is not even in the same league within Muslim countries as the west. Here is the Pakistani Rule of law:

The Offence of Zina (Enforcement Of Hudood) Ordinance, 1979.
Ordinance No. VII of 1979
February 9th, 1979

An Ordinance to bring in conformity with the injunctions of Islam the law relating to the Offence of Zina.

WHEREAS it is necessary to modify the existing law relating to zina so as to bring it in conformity with the Injunctions of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

AND WHEREAS the President is satisfied that circumstances exist which render it necessary to take immediate action;

Now, THEREFORE, in pursuance of the Proclamation of the fifth day of July 1977, read with the Laws (Continuance in Force), Order, 1977 (C.M.L.A. Order No. l of 1977), and in exercise of all powers enabling him in that behalf, the President is pleased to make and promulgate the following Ordinance:-
Chapter I
PRELIMINARY
1. Short title, extent and commencement

this is essentially law of Pakistan, I did not post it all because it is large. However I will post Section 8:

8. Proof of zina or zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd.
Proof of zina-bil-jabr liable to hadd shall be in one of the following forms, namely:-
(a) the accused makes before a Court of competent jurisdiction a confession of the commission of the offence; or
(b) at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the Court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-widnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence:

Provided that, if the accused is a non-Muslim, the eye-witnesses may be non-Muslims.

So unless the accuser confesses, or 4 "Muslim" witnesses witness the actual "Penetration" you ain't got a hope of securing a rape conviction.

Your stats are deception in the highest order!!!!!!!!

rape is a major sin and the penalty for it is death. In countries in America or even in the UK the penalty for rape is only a few years in jail.

Members of the E.U are not allowed to have a death penalty. I support this since I don't want innocent people being killed. Bottom line is you can free an innocent man from jail and he may try to get a life back. You cannot bring back the DEAD!

root, the first Muezzin of the Prophet (salalahu alai hi wasalam) was a black man. Abu Bakr (ra) set him free even though they were a arab. In Islam a Muslim should help free slaves and Islam does not allow Muslims to have slaves in the 1st place.

And quite right too. However, I stayed a significant time in Pakistan and able to compare between UK and Pakistan. Yes slavery is abomnable in any form, however in all sense and purpose "Slavery" is but another word. Servents were always very uncomfortable on my lips whilst in Pakistan.... And I was on no package holiday I can tell you, I experienced the real deal of Life in Pakistan (Love the people, love the culture totally hate the corruption)

the time when Islam was freeing slaves the Europeans and Americans were still taking slaves away from their homelands in slave ships and forcing them to work for them. This carried on even in the 1800s whereas Islam had stopped this 1400 years ago.

hhmm, 605 years ago it ended. get over it please. All the perpetrators associated with slavery are long time DEAD!!! Go dig up the bones and punish them if u will, or beleive your God sent them to hell (and I hope so) but stop living in the past for all our sakes.

If our position is 'madness' I really dont understand how you would feel if Allah (swt) forbid but if someone from your family got raped how you would feel - the person being in jail just for a few years and coming back could attack another innocent girl again and this could change her for life.

Sex offenders register anyone! Most rapes are not brutal random strangers. You are more likely to be knocked down and killed by a car than raped.

Islam is democracy and Allah (swt) created the world and the people inside of it. They know how the people react to diferent situations, and Islam (the word of Allah (swt)) was given to us to protect us. And if you follow what Allah (swt) says insh Allah you will be protected

I respect islam, so respect the democracy of the West. and stop *****ing about how perfect your laws are, for they are not. For better or for worse, the west is what the west is. And ultimately I don't see Pakistan's and Iran's imigration being flooded by the West.

I ain't debating this, I was just angry at how quickly you peddled your misconceptions. I will state again my point is only "I think muslim women look lovely and part of the British culture with an Hijab, however. Covering of the face is not warmly welcomed by British people as much as a culture of walking down the street naked is not welcomed in both our cultures. I take my hat off to the Muslim suggesting uncovering of face. we want you to be Muslim, we want pakistani-british people. Both sides have to give a little to gain a lot

Thanks

Root

Regards

root