Who is Dhul Qarnayn?

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Asalaam O Alaikum bro Scimi

Thanks for sharing the info. A lot of historical evidence during the time of return of the Jews to the Holy Land by the Persian King named Cyrus and his rule over many parts of the land, very much resembles the Dhul Qarnayn of the Quran.

Walakum salaam bro

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

This however would be doubtful to say because the above Verses that you have shared is very much resembling the prediction coming and rule of Masih Isa ibn Maryam (a.s) in and around the Holy Land, after he has defeated Dajjal, the False Masih.

(3:45) Lo! The angels said "O Mary! Behold, God sends thee the glad tidings, through a word from Him, (of a son) who shall become known as the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, of great honour in this world and the life to come, and (shall be) of those who are drawn near unto God. (Muhammad Asad)

Asad comments on the Word Christ: "whose name shall be The Anointed (Al Masih)". The designation Al Masih is the Arabicized form of Aramaic Meshiha which in turn is derived from the Hebrew Mahsiah, 'The Anointed' - a term frequently applied in the Bible to Hebrew Kings, whose accession to power would be consecrated by a touch with holy oil taken from the Temple. This anointment appears to have been so important a rite among the Hebrews that the term 'The Anointed' became in the course of time more or less synonymous with 'King'. Its application to Jesus may have been due to the widespread conviction among his contemporaries (references to which are found in several places in the Synoptic Gospels) that he was descended in direct - and obviously legitimate line from the Royal House of David. (It is to be noted that this could not have been related to his mother's side because Mary belonged to the priestly class descending from Aaron, thus to the Tribe of Levi, one of the Sons of Jacob, while David descended from the Tribe of Judah) Whatever may have been the historical circumstances, it is evident that the honorific "The Anointed" was applied to Jesus in his own lifetime. In the Greek version of the Gospels - which is undoubtedly based on a now lost Aramaic original - this designation is correctly translated as Christos ( a noun derived from Greek Verb Chriein "To Anoint"): and since it is in this form - "The Christ" - that the designation Al-Masih has achieved in all Western Languages.

So the Prophecy which you've shared above I believe applies very much to Al Masih Isa Ibn Maryam (a.s) instead of Cyrus, who would rule the world from Jerusalem, once he defeats and kills the False Masih Dajjal after his Second Arrival. The "Annointed One" or 'The King' or Al Masih, very much applies to Jesus (a.s) and no one else as he was foretold in the Bible that he would bring the Glory Days of Children of Israel back to them, The Glory Days of Solomon (a.s) as Solomon was the 1st one to build the Temple. He i.e. Jesus (a.s) would have to built the Temple or Masjid of David (a.s) as we know it because Zionist Israel will have to destroy Masjid Al Aqsa and built what they consider the correct historic Temple of Solomon. Dr Israar Ahmed writes in his Book 'Lessons From History':

During the years 1020 B.C. and 922 B.C., Israel reached the zenith of its territorial size and political power, enjoying an era of peace and affluence.
Culture, trade, and industry flourished, especially during the reign of Prophet Suleman (AS). The famous Temple was also built for the first time in Jerusalem.

Since Zionism, the Political Ideology which is poised to build a House for Jews in the Holy Land, either by hook or crook at the expense of millions of innocent lives even if they have to take, is deceiving them in to believing that their Glory Days of Solomon (a.s) are coming back. Rather this is the deception of Al Masih Al Dajjal. So the Real Messiah or Anointed One will have to come back and kill The False Messiah, who is about to become their leader, thus fulfilling all those Prophecies of his rule in the Torah.

Yes one thing, I would agree about Cyrus, the Great, he wasn't a polytheist, I don't know if he did study Torah under the Rabbis and became a True Follower of Bible i.e. Muslim.

About your saying Cyrus, being from the House of David, the Prophet's who did foretell about this King's arrival and subsequent release of Children of Israel from Babylon, would've also mentioned him being from the House of David, but they never did this, even though they did mention him being a type of a saviour king. For example, Book of Daniel, about 2 Horns, King of Media and Persia.

You are completely correct - however, we must take a look at this example from the Jewish contextual understanding, since it was the Jews who were testing the Prophet pbuh with this question.

When we do this, we can see the reasoning for the question posed to prophet Muhammad pbuh, namely that the Jews had already accepted a non Jewish liberator as a Messiah - they didn't view Cyrus as THE MESSIAH though, because for the Jews, the Kingdom of Heaven would be delivered on earth and they would rule the planet... so they can keep waiting. They didn't recognise Muhammad pbuh as the Messiah, because he never claimed to be - nor did he liberate jerusalem and hail in the reign of the Jews over the rest of the world.

As for Cyrus being from the House of David AS... there is a possibility - here check this out:

Was Cyrus the Great an Israelite?

As the national presence of the Scythian-Scuth-Israelites living in the land of India began to depart, the spiritual truths were left behind by the works of Buddha in the year of 623 BCE. As it spread over the entire breadth of the Indian subcontinent, it eventually became the established religion in India. Yet back in Persia, the Scythian-Scuth-Israelites did pursue their conquest of the lands of the Persians. Is it any wonder that many scholars have suggested the Cyrus the Great was of Hebrew ancestry?

Cyrus the Great and his Jewish Queen Esther

In the Holy Scriptures, it was the God of Israel who proclaimed that Cyrus the Great would be sent to Babylon for the express purpose of doing His divine will and performing for His personal pleasure.

Isaiah 44:28 – “Who says of Cyrus, “He is My Shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, saying to Jerusalem, ‘You shall be built,’ and to the temple, ’Your foundation shall be laid.’ ”

It was the Eternal One of Israel who had foretold to the Jews through the Prophet Isaiah during the days of Sennacherib the King of Assyria, years before the days of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon that Cyrus the Great would be His messiah, His “anointed one”. It was He who proclaimed that the city of Babylon would not have to be destroyed, the walls would not have to be breached, the double doors of Babylon would be opened to him and that the gates to the mighty Euphrates River would not be shut so that his army would be able to secure the city without the loss of one drop of Jewish blood.

Isaiah 45:1 – “Thus says the Lord to His anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held – to subdue nations before him and loose the armor of kings, to open before him the double doors, so that the gates will not be shut.”

It was the Lord of hosts, who proclaimed during the days of the rule of King Hezekiah, that God already knew the name of Cyrus, before He was born, and it was the Eternal One Himself who gave Cyrus his own name.


Isaiah 45:3-4 – “That you may know that I, the Lord, who called you by your name, am the God of Israel, for Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.”

The Wife of the Persian Shah, the Jewess Queen Esther

Why would the God of Israel do such a thing to someone who came from the land of the enemy of His people? Was Cyrus chosen from the enemy of God’s people, or was he selected from the remnant of the Lost Tribes that were placed among the enemies of God’s people.

Isaiah 45:5-6 – “I am the Lord, and there is non other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me, that they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting that there is non besides Me, I am the Lord and there is no other; I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord do all these things.”

Would the God of Israel use just anyone, from and of the nations of the earth, to perform His divine destiny? Would the God of Israel choose an enemy of His people to take them into exile so that His divine will would be accomplished? Yes! Would the God of Israel use the enemy of His people to protect them? We do not know! What if the God of Israel, knowing the end from the beginning chose Cyrus the Great because he was one of His own chosen ones, of the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel, so that he could have the pleasure of redeeming His own cousins the Jews?

What if the Eternal One gave him a destiny of ordering the rebuilding of the temple that his own forefather’s chose to reject as God’s lawgivers and to lead their people, the northern 10 tribes into apostasy? What if Cyrus the Great was a Lost Israelite chosen on a destiny to do God’s chosen will, before the Lost Israelites would fully exit from the Middle East? What if it was his destiny to redeem his cousins the Jews, the lawgivers of ancient Israel, so that they could go back to God’s land, and remain in a covenant with their God, so that the oracles of the Almighty might be preserved through Ezra the Scribe and that the Messiah might arrive and be born through the seed of the loins of Kings David and Solomon? Cyrus was chosen, even though Cyrus’ own people would have to remain in exile and clueless to their own destiny! Was Cyrus the Great a clueless child of the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel?

One of the modern scholars of the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel is Yair Davidiy of Brit-Am network, and it is his professional opinion that Cyrus the Great may have been a descendant of the Lost Tribes of Israel, from one of the tribes that was totally evacuated from the northern lands of the Kingdom of Israel and deported during the first deportation, during the second invasion of King Tiglath-pileser of Assyria. Concerning the ancestry as to whether “Cyrus the Great was an Israelite”, we read the words of Yair Davidiy:

Yair Davidiy – “Cyrus was the ruler of Persia. He belonged to the Pasargadae who was a small clan that had gained control of Persia. One explanation of the name Pasargadae is "Pasar-Gadae" which in the Aramaic dialect of that time meant "Sons-of-Gad" (Le Comte de Gobineau. "Histoire Des Perses", Paris 1869).

Groups from the Israelite tribe of Gad were scattered through Persia as well as being prominent amongst the Gutae (Goths) who at that stages were on the northern borders of Persia (a tribe amongst the Scythians), as explained from Ancient Sources in "The Tribes". It is therefore more than likely that the Pasargadae were at least in part originally descended from Gad (Pasar-Gadae). Cyrus may well have been of Israelite descent.”

God’s Wondrous Design – The Lost Israelites and Jews

Now we may be beginning to understand the design of God’s will, that the destiny of the nations are completed or revealed through his “chosen ones” who are descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Even today, is it impetuous to suggest, that every ruler that changes the destiny of the world is put there by the divine hand of God? Is it absurd to think that every leader and ruler, in the modern as well as the ancient times, who leads and directs the destiny of the world is a descendant of the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel or the Lost Jews of the House of Judah.

The Persian Shah Cyrus the Great also had a destiny for the Nations of the World. It was he who wrote the first charter for the declaration of human rights. It was inscribed on the Cyrus Clay Cylinder and today is on display in the British Museum.

Out of that charter resulted in the emancipation of the Jewish people. They were to return back to their homelands in the Land of Israel. Yet they also had the privilege with Cyrus’s emancipation to live in peaceful coexistence in a land of people from many different backgrounds and cultures. The Jews were to learn the concept of emancipation and eventually relive this experience in Germany (19th century) and America (20th century) and coexist in a pluralistic culture with a doctrine of diversity, such as Cyrus’ Persia, their participate, flourish and actually participate in the foundation and formation of advanced societies on this planet today.


source: http://www.biblesearchers.com/hebrew...israel11.shtml

The Jews of Yathrib saw the parable of Muhammad pbuh and Dhul Qarnayn in the idea that only two men in the history of mankind were given the task of propagating Monotheism to the whole world - Cyrus who was a King, and Muhammad who was the final prophet, pbuh.

It seems possible that Cyrus may have been a descendant of David AS, from the lost tribes - this is what is suggested above.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Completely Agree, I rather have a firm belief that he was a follower of Zoroaster or Zaratushtra , who may be a Prophet of Allah (swt) sent to the Persians, as Muhammad (Saw) said "Allah (swt) sent 120,000 Prophets throughout history of mankind.". He could've been one of them, and his teachings were monotheistic.


One thing very important to mention is that, the Children of Israel have a belief that their Future King or Al Maseeh or Anointed One whom they are waiting to appear and bring back their Glory Days of Solomon (a.s), has to rule over them from the Throne of David (a.s), the Father of Solomon. So even though Cyrus, the Great appeared as a saviour who brought them back to their Holy Land, they never chose him to rule over their Land of Judea, from the throne of David (a.s), infact Cyrus appointed Sheshbazzar, probably the son of King Jehoiachin ( descended from Royal House of David, overthrown by Nebuchadnezzar), to rule Judah as a semi-independent state. Sheshbazzar led the first group of Jews back to their homeland, followed by another expedition led by Zerubbabel in 522 B.C.. However, because of a number of reasons, the rebuilding of the Temple could not progress beyond the laying down of its foundations. Eighteen years latter, Zerubbabel became Judah’s governor who, supported by Prophets Haggai and Zechariah and the high-priest Jeshua, completed the second Temple in 515 B.C. (Lesson From the History by Dr. Israar Ahmed)

This effort of completion of construction of the Temple continued after Cyrus had passed, it was completed during the time of Darius, the Great, another Persian King. So the Temple wasn't even built during his era i suppose.

Allah (swt) knows best.

Indeed HE does

I don't think human hands could have built the temple in one lifetime, especially not one as short as the life of Cyrus... - Dairus completed the work, after he was shown the letter of Cyrus by the Jews confirming that Cyrus had mandated the reconstruction of the temple - stones had to be quarried from distant places and trees cut down and brought back to the area etc - then you got all the other things... I don't claim that Cyrus was the Jewish Messiah - the Jews do - but even when they do - they say it with an air of contempt - because most of them don't even understand their own history properly. Also, Cyrus was always considered an honorary Messiah - not the real McCoy. A messiah, not The Messiah.

The point is, from all the evidence amassed so far, Cyrus fits the bill. Cyrus was obviously very important and instrumental in the story of the Jews.

Next I want to look at the case of the tabaabiyah Kings of Yemen, and ask "how can two tigers exist on the same mountain" but before we get there, I will see if you have anything further to add in sha Allah.

Scimi

EDIT:
@Bro ahmad_H

Imam Al-Bukhari transmitted in his Sahih the following Hadith saying: ((A man told the Prophet (Peace be upon him) that he had seen the dam (of Gog and Magog). The Prophet (Peace be upon him) asked: (How did you find it?’ the man said: (I found it like Al-Burd Al-Muhabbar (stripped garments).’ The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: (You have seen it like that. ‘” In Ibn Jarir’s exegesis of the Qur’an, a slight different narration was reported by Qatadah who said: (‘I was told that a man said: (0 Allah’s Messenger! I have seen the dam of Gog and Magog. ‘The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: (describe it to me. The man said: ‘It looked like stripped garments, with red and black stripes.’ The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: ‘You have seen it. ‘”

The problem with finding iron and copper today in a mountainous structure, is the fact that it will have naturalised into its environment - when the prophet pbuh heard from a companion that he'd seen the barrier in a dream, he described it as a black and red striped garment - the iron would have rusted red, by the time of the prophet pbuh... when we factor in the weather, and the elements which cause erosion in metals - we can safely ascertain that for a barrier to remain standing this long it would have to be treated into chrome - they didn't have that tech back then, and so copper was poured over the top, resulting in a structure which looked like stripy garment... besides, I am of the belief that the barrier was breached during the lifetime of the prophet pbuh, and I say this on the account of wife of Prophet pbuh, Zainab Bint Jahsh's (RA) hadeeth which you referenced in your post. The Hadeeth is mutawatir.


banded iron formation on rock

Since the 7th century, the orthodox belief is that the barrier is a physical one and not a metaphorical one bro Ahmad_H. On that account I think you are wrong to say that this is an allegorical story in the Quran. None of the stories in Al Kahf were allegorical, so what evidence can you cite that proves it was? Your post wasn't convincing on the grounds that it is contradictory as I have outlined in the example of Zainab Bint Jahsh's hadeeth RA... not to mention that as early as Khaliph Umar's time (RA), expeditions have been sent to locate the wall.

Even Khaliph Watiq Billah sponsored an expedition, with Sallam Al Tarjumani (the interpreter) going as far as China and returning with news of the barrier in the northern frontier of Chinas then republic, which bordered the Mongol areas north of the Gobi dessert...

Some good books out there on that, if you are interested let me know, I have the PDF's.

Scimi

That is the interesting part to the story of Dhul Qarnain, so many factors that is not so easily decipherable (is there such a word?) but it is in the Quran which makes it true..

What started to give me doubts that Alexander was the 'one' is because he was tutored by Aristotle, who was the student of Plato who was in turn a student of Socrates. They were not (as far as I know anywhere near being a muslim) so how could he be guided?

Why would the Jews ask a question about a person who would is not of 'faith'?

What is ironic is that the grandson of Cyrus is defeated by Alexander...


Peace

Seeing as this thread is about Dhul Qarnain, my 'rhetorical question would be

"why would Alexander the Great be inserted as being Dhul Qarnain?" when the Jews who asked the question at that time were satisfied with the answer given back then?

Is it part of their plan to mislead the Muslims by naming another person who is a pagan, while they keep the real answer to themselves? Perhaps it is so they can sow some seeds of doubts?

ofcourse it is... the romance of alexander was written over and over again, each time getting more and more flagrant -- in the end it included the plagiarised version of ayahs 83-99 of Al Kahf, albeit in romanticised form.

Just look up "The Alexander Romance" and you will see exactly how it started to pick up momentum within the Muslim world - all engineered I tell you.

Worse - one Muslim scholar copied the romance and replaced Zeus with Allah to make it fit with Al Kahf - that's how the legend got so much traction within Islam.

Contextually - the whole story is plagiarised to confuse Muslims as to the real identity of Dhul Qarnayn. The jews are still reeling from the shock of the verses in Al Kahf ayah 83-99. They knew they had no leg left to stand on. During the lifetime of the Prophet - the jews of Yathrib - Some accepted Islam - others didn't. The Munafiqoon.

Scimi

@ Bro Scimi,

Thanks for sharing all those details, I thought that Scythians were one of those Wild Tribes of Central Asia and Eastern Europe, but what you've shared, if it is correct that Scythians are one of the lost tribes of Israel, then I say Wallahu Alim, I don't know much about it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H

This opening of the wall which holds back Gog and Magog is a spiritual matter, and is not meant to be taken literally. Now if you truly understand the way dreams work, then you'd realize by reading this Hadith slowly and carefully, with some proper thought, that the Holy Prophet (saw) said this after he woke from his sleep. Dreams are spiritual in meaning. They are not literal. So then how can you take these verses in the Qur'an so simplistically?

Bro Ahmed,

There is religious symbolism required to understand dreams, like Yusuf (a.s) saw the Sun Moon and Twelve stars prostrating him, which meant His Father, Mother and Twelve brothers as explained in the Quran. But Dreams of the Prophet, are not the same as dreams of any believer.

We have to keep this in Mind that Prophet Muhammad (Saw), was a Prophet of Allah (swt) and His dreams are not to be taken like our dreams, because the Process of Revelation that began in his life began in the form of True Dreams or Dreams coming to reality as it is:

Ayesha (r.a) said "The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah’s Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. She said: He remained in this condition as long as Allah Most High willed. He loved solitude. Nothing was dearer to him.” (Dreams In Islam by Sheikh Imran Hosein)

Also the Keep in mind that Prophet (saw) said “The (good) dreams of a faithful believer is a part of the forty-six parts of prophethood.”

Our dreams may be having allegorical meaning due to them being only 1 out of 46 parts of Prophet hood, but the complete prophet hood was bestowed on Muhammad (Saw), the chosen one, so his dreams will be as clear as day light! For example:

Allah’s Apostle slept and afterwards woke up smiling. Um Haram asked, “What makes you smile, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Some of my followers were presented before me in my dream as fighters in Allah’s Cause, sailing in the middle of the seas like kings on the thrones or like kings sitting on their thrones.” Um Haram added, ‘I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Invoke Allah, to make me one of them;” So Allah’s Apostle invoked Allah for her and then laid his head down (and slept). Then he woke up smiling (again). (Um Haram added): I said, “What makes you smile, O Allah’s Apostle?” He said, “Some people of my followers were presented before me (in a dream) as fighters in Allah’s Cause.” He said the same as he had said before. I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Invoke Allah to make me from them.” He said, “You are among the first ones.” Then Um Haram sailed over the sea during the Caliphate of Muawiya bin Abu Sufyan, and she fell down from her riding animal after coming ashore, and died.

Muhammad (Saw) seeing dreams were as bright as a daylight, absolute clear as it is because he had all parts of Prophet hood given to him. I suggest reading Sheikh Imran's Book 'Dreams in Islam', to understand the subject even better.


Him seeing a hole being made in the Wall of Gog and Magog in his dream, was actual hole and a revelation of their release in to the world.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H

So what do you say when this prophecy itself is also another spiritual sign? Does it mean Dajjal is on some island in this world? No. Here is why:

It was narrated from Jabir, that the Prophet(s.a.w) said:
"There is no soul born upon the earth – meaning today – upon whom will come one hundred years." (Sahih)

Sayyidina Abdullah ibn Umar (RA) narrated : Allah’s Messenger led us in the salah of isha towards the end of his life. When he had finished, he stood up and said, “Do you see this night of yours ? After a hundred years from it, there will not remain anyone of those on the face of the earth today.” Ibn Umar (RA) said that the people misinterpreted Allah’s Messenger (SAW) saying as not remaining for a hundred years though he only said, “There will not remain anyone of those today on the face of the earth after a qarn” (which is a hundred years or a generation).

Basically the hadith meant that the Generation or Qarn the Prophet (saw) was addressing will not live beyond Hundred Years from that Night. Hope you understand. Most of those gathered at the address did pass away 100 years from that night. So this will not apply to Dajjal.

Dajjal, even though Prophet Muhammad (Saw) saw him in several dreams and visions, and even on the Night of Mira'j, yet his personality is real, for if this hadn't been true, the Holy Prophet (Saw) would never had suspected Ibn Sayyad to be Dajjal:

Umar (RA) said, “O Messenger of Allah, (SAW) ‘ allow me to strike off his (Ibn Sayyad's) neck!” But, Allah’s Messenger said, “If he is true (The Dajjal), you will have no power over him. But if he is not (Dajjal) then there is no good in killing him.” Abdur Razzaq said, “that meant the dajjal.” (Sahih Tirmizi, Chapter 63 Ibn Sayyad, Book on Fitan)


Dajjal's Island is real, and the Sign which was showed to Prophet (saw) on Mira'j was of a real human being. But, however, there is religious symbolism involved in many signs of the End of Times, Interpretation or Taweel is required to spell them out clearly in our times and environment. Like Dajjal's Mule:

Prophet (Saw) said "...he will ride on a mule whose ears will be stretched out wide...." which obviously implies an aircraft. We won't be taking the mule literally, obviously. So you have to understand where symbolism is involved and interpretation is required and where not.



As for your Gog and Magog, theory, I completely agree with you, other than a couple of parts.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H

There are very down to earth explanations of all of these matters. No need to complicate things either. If any of you want to disapprove of my using the Bible, fine, but you cannot argue with the clear statements of the Ahadith. I should just add that verse 21:96 of the Holy Qur'an, which mentions Gog and Magog going over every Hadab implies that they would reach every height. But if Muslims try to take shelter on Tur, then how is that safe against Gog and Magog who have gone on "EVERY" Hadab (height)? I've really thought about this, and realized that it can't mean anything else except that Hadab has some deeper meaning to it.

But the Ahadith make it clear they attain every height in the world, but they cannot reach the full extent of Heaven. They will think they rule Heaven, but they don't. The most grounded way to understand this is that they have taken rockets and actually shot their rockets to space and reached there. An ancient person could only think of shooting an arrow as something to liken to a rocket. And besides, who can shoot an arrow to the sky? Clearly the meaning is meant to be taken as something else.

Read the story of Pharaoh in the Holy Qur'an:
40:36 Pharaoh said: "O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means-
40:37 "The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the god of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!" Thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the Path; and the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).

This is related to the doing of Gog and Magog in the Ahadith. They will seek to turn God out of Heaven but will find themselves smitten, by having boils grow in their necks, dying off by a widespread disease. Whatever happens, if evil becomes widespread enough, even good people will be dragged in that punishment as well, though their reward will be given by Allah.

The explanation given by Sheikh Imran in his book Islamic View of Gog and Magog is exactly the same as yours and makes perfect sense, especially the part of their 'Coming down from every slope' in the Hadith which implies they'll spread Fasad like none has spread before and 'Their shooting arrows' in the hadith which implies in our times, Rockets and space wars.


But I would like to correct you on the Russia theory. Sheikh Imran Hosein himself, even though pointed towards Wester Europe being Gog, he mentioned Russia being Magog, a mistake which he has admitted in several of his lectures in recent years after the publishing of his book.

I can give you a quick example to disprove this theory that Russia is part of Gog and Magog World Order today. Russia rather is very much Anti Gog and Magog, and when I say Russia I mean RUssia of today and NOT USSR, Soviet Russia of the Past.

Gog and Magog will not only corrupt mankind but will do Opposite of What Dhul Qarnayn Did:

(Al Kahf 18:90) “. . until when he (eventually) came to the rising sun (i.e. to the farthest point eastwards that he could go since there was no land beyond and it appeared like the end of the Earth and that the sun was rising from beyond that land); he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering (for protection from sunshine, weather, environment) other than (the natural) covering.

(18:91) “Thus (did he meet them and thus did he wisely and compassionately leave them undisturbed in their natural way of life); and We (i.e. Allah Most High) did encompass with Our knowledge his grasp of the situation (and his response to it).

Muhammad Asad comments: With no covering relates to the primitve, natural state of those people who needed no clothes to protect them from Sun, and to the implied fact that Dhul Qarnayn left them as he had found them, being mindful not to upset their mode of life.

But guess what Gog and Magog Rule does to those who want to live in their traditional old style and natural way of life and who want to give up the fast and materialistic lifestyle of modern cities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_way_of_life

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ally/?page=all

If you do some research, you'll see that Amish Communities in US are not safe from authorities, they even arrested them for practicing polygamy, which is what Islam says as well.
http://religionvirus.blogspot.com/20...-to-drugs.html

But something happened in Russia, recently, and rather than giving this lady a hard time they're helping her in continuing her primitive lifestyle:

Agafia’s story: Old hermit lives alone deep in Siberian forest, seeks help

http://rt.com/news/188532-russia-aga...berian-forest/

http://rt.com/news/new-cult-uncovered-in-penza/

None of these people have been forced or arrested for practicing what they believe to be a natural way of life.


Rather, as Western Europe has accepted Gay Marriages and legalized them, Russia has rejected them:

“The urge of Western countries to impose their neoliberal system of values on the other members of the international community as a universal basis of living can only cause concern. This is especially noticeable on the background of their aggressive promotion of the sexual minorities’ rights,” said the Foreign Ministry’s plenipotentiary for human rights, Konstantin Dolgov, while addressing the International Human Rights Forum, currently underway in Beijing.

http://rt.com/politics/russia-blasts...promotion-820/
http://rt.com/politics/putin-law-gay-religious-457/

Gog and Magog are trying to bring Russia to its knees and force Globalization down their throats but Russia is resisting.


Dhul Qarnayn represent belief in Allah (swt) and the Rule of Justice on Earth which is Islamic World Order, while Gog and Magog represent Rule of Fasad and Oppression, so is Islam being attacked by Modern Western World Order or Russia? The answer is simple when you look around the Muslim World, we're not under attack from Russia and China. In their bid to save Israel's illegitimate rule in Middle East, Western Powers are willing to come and jump on mankind from every Height or Hadab.


Consider RT's role vs BBC and CNN's or Western Media role that they play when it comes to new of Islam and Muslims. CNN and BBC and Western Media is known to demonize Islam and Muslims, while RT, if you do have the chance of viewing it, will surprise you that they are playing the Role of defending Islam i.e. the Religion of Dhul Qarnayn i.e. Faith in Allah.

RT never demonizes Muslims, other than obviously reporting on atrocities committed by ISIS, Dajjal's warriors.

My personal understanding is that many personalities in the Quran have not been detailed for us because the purpose of them is learning lessons from their lives rather than living off their legacy.

What do you guys think?

format_quote Originally Posted by Caller الداعي

...... many personalities in the Quran have not been detailed for us because the purpose of them is learning lessons from their lives rather than living off their legacy.

What do you guys think?

Can't argue with you there. . .

But the story of Dhul Qarnayn is different. Knowing who is Dhul Qarnain is not the real point, but the story of the past has a bearing on the future with regards to certain aspects. Along with the fact the the Jews know who he is, hence asking the question with their motive(s) and getting an account of Dhul Qarnayn's actions, thus confirming. But they did not reveal who the person was. But the task was done.

In recent times Alexander the Great became associated as being Dhul Qarnayn. For a while maybe it was okay to finally have a real figure to that name, and he was a mighty leader! But he was a pagan! Surely Allah would not have been describing Alexander the Great!

Hence the quest to find the 'real' Dhul Qarnayn. Not that it is essential, but it cannot be Alexander, surely.


Peace

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

@ Bro Scimi,

Thanks for sharing all those details, I thought that Scythians were one of those Wild Tribes of Central Asia and Eastern Europe, but what you've shared, if it is correct that Scythians are one of the lost tribes of Israel, then I say Wallahu Alim, I don't know much about it.

Good to read you again bro Syed

THe Scythians were notably not just one tribe - but were many tribes who were nomadic, like their cousins the tartar-mongoloid nomads. Some historians such as Herodotus and Josephhus as well as others have said they consist of 24 tribes together (both the Scythians and the Tartar-Mongol) and co-existed out of necessity, even intermingled in a point of history where racial interbreeding was frowned upon.

Amongst the Scythians, were the Ashkenazi - who were supposedly one of the lost tribes of Israel. They had adopted the lifestyle of the nomads of Scythia out of necessity but didn't venture further than what geographically known as Khazaria today.

The Greek historian Herodotus reported three contradictory versions as to the origins of the Scythians, but considered the following to be most likely.


“There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.”


Josephus continues with further mistakes in relation to the Gomerites [source], in fact, much of Josephus’ work, in this particular area, not only contradicts other historians, but also contradicts Bible scripture in many places. [J. Miller and J. Hayes, A History of Ancient Israel and Judah, Philadelphia, 1986, pp. 316, 334, 408, and 470]. Many of these mistakes were not found in an Arabic copy of the book. Possibly implying that the few original copies of the Greek version of this book, limited as they were, were doctored in some places by servants of Satan, who were helping to forge evidence that would later be used to help promulgate Satan’s End Times counterfeiting of the Gog and Magog war.
[Above paragraph based on information found in The Comets of God]



It seems that 'Scythians' was a blanket term to describe a whole group of peoples.


Colonel J.C. Gawler’s book Our Scythian Ancestors supplies the answer: "Scythia proper, then, in the times of Herodotus (book iv. cap.101) is described as lying between the Danube and the Don. The Scythian nation was made up of various tribes having different names, though all are classed under one general name. Herodotus distinguishes, moreover, between tribes belonging to the Scythian nation, and tribes living among them having Scythian habits, but who were not Scythians by tradition or language". This distinction is not drawn by all writers.


“The ancient Greeks,” says Strabo, (book i. ii. 27) “classed all the northern nations with which they were familiar under the one name of Scythians, or according to Homer, Nomades.”


Strabo (book vii. iii. 9) seems to account for this by again pointing out how diverse races inhabiting those parts were all classed by the Greek writers under the name of Scythians. ‘Ephorus, in the fourth book of his history, which is entitled ‘of Europe,’ concludes by saying that there is a great difference in the manner of life, both of the Sauromatae (a mixed race, Herod. iv. 110-117) and the other Scythians; for while some of them are exceedingly morose, and are indeed cannibals (see Herod. iv. 106) others abstain even from the flesh of animals. (See Strabo, xvi. ii. 37, regarding superstitious innovations-abstinence from meat, &c.,- among the followers of Moses.)” (p.3). One of the peoples of the mixed race who were Not Scythian, but were classified, or grouped together with the Scythians was Magog! <-Ashkenaz: Strabo, 1st century AD.

My personal opinion is that the Scythian fit the example of Gog whereas the tartar Mongoloid fit the Magog identity.

Further, these two were essentially separated by a distinct racial feature - the colour of hair. The Scythians were the fair haired race (blonde, auburn, red and light brown - whereas the Tartar-Mongoloid were black haired.

Scimi

the lost tribes spread far and wide bro. When Allah scattered the tribes away from jerusalem, they moved to whatever they climate they felt was best. They went into Africa and Southern Arabia, Central Arabia, Persia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and northwards into Ashkenaz and from there, Europe... Some reached Europe from Greece and Rome as they identified with the thriftiness of the empire's pragmatism circa the time of Isa AS... it is only in this modern age do we see them return to the holy land as non semitic and semitic Jews... reminds me of this:

“But there is a ban on a town which We have destroyed: that they (the people of the town) shall not return (to reclaim that town as their own); until Gog and Magog are let through (their barrier), and they swiftly spread out in every direction (replicating themselves amongst all the peoples of the world).”
(Qur’an, al-Anbiyah, 21:95-96)

Scimi

Sure, The Subject of the identity for DQ is a closed one for me anyhow.

As for ya'juj Ma'juj, the etymology of the words should be looked at again. I believe the phenomena of Linguistic Borrowing has occurred with those two words.

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Thanks Bro.

But don't you see that even if those Lost Tribes did mingle with other nations then they have lost their Jewish Heritage and have become the same as the ones within whom they've assimilated. So if they settled in Pashtun Areas, and became Muslims, they wouldn't be coming back to reclaim the Holy Land as their own? Right?

Yes precisely my point when I say "semitic as well as non semitic Jews returned to Jerusalem"

It had to inevitable, that with the passage of time, blood lines had to mix in order to ensure survival and continuity.

This hadeeth: "Those who imitate a people are from them" kinda spells it clear for me.

Most of the so-called Jews in Israel are secular and not religious, in fact, I saw a video recently where a guy asks Jews in Israel if they are religious and most of them answered they were atheist. A friend of mine confirmed for me that real Judaism is rare in Israel and the norm is the neo-hellenistic and secular lifestyle of the western countries - compromising the very idea of an Holy Israel.

As Shaikh Imran Hosein has told us many times - Appearance and Reality are not the same.

So yes, we are not in disagreement, except for one small part - namely that it is not just the Khazar jews who would be part and parcel of G&M solely as a race, no... it would be the whole region, historically speaking - stretching up to the borders of China.

But today, even an Arab can be a G&M, if he or she is secular, irreligious, and craves the trinkets of dunya and would do anything to achieve their desires. The essential characteristic of G&M, as told to us in the Quran, is that they cause "corruptions in the land". And as we know from hadeeth mentioned above, "Those who imitate a people are of them" - this hadeeth was narrated on behalf of 4 different companions of the Prophet pbuh: Abdullah bin 'Umar / Abu Hurairah / Hudhayfah / Anas bin Malik - may Allah be pleased with them all. Ameen.

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z

Do you have any Idea about the Arrows that Gog and Magog will be 'throwing' in to the Heavens, which we have come to understand that they are Space Rockets and Satellites but the part of that same Hadith mentions their Rockets will return besmeared with 'Blood' and they will say before shooting their 'arrows' that 'lets conquer those in the heavens'. Do you have think if Prophet Muhammad (saw) was referring to Mars Planet, which is also known as Red Planet, when mentioning their spears returning with 'Blood'? A lot of hype has been created through Hollywood already about alien invasion.... may be they might be able to land on Mars and bring back some pieces from the Red Planet or may be hit it with a space missile. Allah (swt) knows best.

Please share your thoughts.

I have deliberated on the hadeeth about the arrows returning with something like blood on them from time to time, and truth be told brother - this hadeeth is one which poses 2 possibilities which I can think of.

1) if technology is defunct in the future due to electromagnetic pulse radiation (this could be cause by an interplanetary body moving close to our own) shutting down all electronics, then we probably will go back to more traditional means of living, disregarding technology - this would make all nations on the earth feel "vulnerable" without their techy war machines. Is there a possibility of an interplanetary body moving near earth?

In the final 10 major signs, we find that "the rising of the sun from the west (3 days and nights of darkness)" could very well be a possibility if an interplanetary body came between the sun and earth, effectively eclipsing the sun... if same interplanetary body interferes with the electromagnetic signals from satellites and the technologies on earth - you can imagine the rest I believe. We'd be right back to the Seima Turbino Phenomena - people will be melting metals and forging weapons... the most effective and least expensive to produce would be "arrows"...

The final wave of Gog Magog is also a part of the major ten signs. These are said to happen in such frequency that none know their ordering... I think you know what I am getting at here bro Syed. Sun rising from west, gog magog final wave. Allah knows best.

2) There is also a possibility that the arrows mentioned in the hadeeth refer to modern weapons also. As you have quite rightly estimated - these could refer to rockets which are shot into the air, then come down and cause collateral damage - blood on them.

As for the "we have killed the inhabitants of the heavens, now we will kill the inhabitants of the earth" line - that could be a ploy of utilising Jinn (alien hype) or, it could be a massive hologram show to deceive us. As we know, hologram tech has taken a vast leap of improvement in our current age.

See following video - the tools dajjal will have at his disposal are going to woo many into disbelief,



The video is 10 years old... imagine the leaps and bounds they have made since then. I have watched this video many times and that last part where the helicopter is flown over the heads of the audience - is really giving the game away.

Deception has taken on a whole new facade - dajjal's time of appearance is closer now than it's ever been.

Allah knows best.

Scimi