I ask this question humbly. I really know nothing on the topic.
What is the basis behind the ruling that a muslim woman cannot marry a non-muslim guy. Is it in the Quran or hadeeth? Is it due to practical reasons or faith based ones?
I have a senario:
Theres a non-muslim guy who is very open minded. He loves Islam so much that he wouldn't have an issue converting if it werent for his extremely non-islam family, ie, they believe that if a muslim enters the kitchen, all the food turns poisonous. He has faith, that is, he believes in all 6 pillars of iman. He practices some of the islamic practices etc...but he cannot convert and doesnt feel the need to convert as he feels in tune with islam as it is. He says that he wouldnt have an issue living like a muslim.
Could a muslim woman marry him? What bad could he be to her or their kids?
My humble salams.
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
the sister asked a question which this thread seems not to be answering at all as of the last posts, what has some people's personal view, that muslim men may not marry women of all other faiths, which moreover goes against Islam to do with it?
on topic: if the only thing stopping him from becoming muslim is his parents and so on, and you're absolutely sure he won't remain as he is, then you may marry him since he is praying, believes in the pillars etc, for a certain period of time, and see what happens then, otherwise don't go down that road, it' not like he's the only man there is.
NB; a muslim brother who just converted would-presumably-not know much about the religion at first, however that doesn't prevent a muslim woman from marrying him, I'm basing my suggestion on that. on the other hand, if he doesn't embrace Islam 'fully' after some time had passed, then it-religiously speaking-would be a null marriage.
Marry him to "see what hapens"? she likely gets impregnated by this person
if he doesn't embrace Islam 'fully' after some time had passed, then it-religiously speaking-would be a null marriage.
so it is permissible to "marry" and move in with a "potential" Muslim but she must leave him after some time has elapsed and he has not become Muslim?
wait a minute look at the following quote (I anticipated this (guessed it) when I reported your post more than a week ago)
format_quote Originally Posted by sevgi
Salams all,
Ive been on a few times to go through what your responses were...thank you all for clarifying some aspects of my query.
Just to elaborate a little:
This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
He loves her hijab and way of dress and would never get in the way of their children becoming muslim. He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims. He choses to be an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions. He loves islam and all his friends are muslims. He does not do anything unislamic and practices some islamic principles better than any muslim I know.
I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
to summarise: according to some members here, a potential Muslim has the following qualities in him:
he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
he does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel (4) to those who are non-muslims.
he is an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions (2).
I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
becuase Allah knows best, and hence shouldn't be questioned when it comes to His Rulings?
This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
that alone should tell her what type of guy he is
if he thinks islam is backward, then how is he gna mind raising his kids as muslim...
Last edited by Ummu Sufyaan; 06-16-2009 at 09:29 AM.
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion....
How can Islam have an issue with this?
You answered your own question. How can you NOT have an issue with the head of the family thinking her religion is backward? How will the children be taught to pray when their father tells them his "opinion" of Islam?
More importantly you're now being contradicting, you started the thread by saying he will convert but afraid of his parents, and now he is agnostic who will never convert...
Look sister, the flat answer is that it is impermissible by complete consensus of all schools of Islamic fiqh and rulings for such a marriage to happen. If ignored and they become together despite of this, she will be living in grave sin every single day of her life, commiting zina every time they are together. The basis is both Quran as well as hadith and fiqh ruling.
_____________________________________________
Iblis's eternal destination in the Hellfire is due to Arrogance, not Disbelief.
A good presentation on this topic by Bilal Phillips. However when is explaining that a non Muslim man may ask his Muslim wives to do certain things such as immodest dress and physical contact with other men like kissing them socially can endanger their relgion. I would like to not that a decent Christian man would not ask his wife to do such things and would have similar expectations as a Muslim husband.
But you have to understand that the standards of dress and conduct in Islam and Christianity are very different. I think you would be hard pressed to find a Christian man who is willing to have his wife wear the hijab and full jilbaab, avoid interaction with his male friends, and not cook pork at home. For her to be true to her religion, her life will have to be quite a bit different from the life her husband is used to. I'm not sure how many men could deal with that (and if they would at first, I'm sure down the line there would be compromises from the woman).
the sister asked a question which this thread seems not to be answering at all as of the last posts, what has some people's personal view, that muslim men may not marry women of all other faiths, which moreover goes against Islam to do with it?
.
It is halal for Christians (according to their religion) to consume wine and pork, also some of them will use statues and Icons (idols according to me) to aide in worship
should a "Muslim" who marries a Christian lady, keep a supply of the above-mentioned items in his home for the sake of his wife?
I understand why a Muslim woman is forbidden to marry a muslim man. But what is the rational around Muslim being allowed to marry a Jewish or Chrisitan woman? From what I know of marriage customs in Islam it seems from my prespective that a Muslim man would only be able to approach the parents of a Muslim woman. I guess this concept has puzzeled me and I dont mean to sound obsessive over it. In college a Kuwait friend of mine asked me if I would consider marrying him so he could get his green card to stay in the USA. Where would a Muslim man meet a non Muslim woman for marriage other than in forbidden sitatuions and why would he desire to marry her in the first place? If anyone could answer this I would be most obliged.
I met my husband were we both Worked, don't think that is forbidden! (he/muslim, me/undecided at the moment but from a christian upbringing)
and as far as the rational around it, its even in the bible that the woman always follows the husband and the children as well. And the greencard thing...lol...my husband spacificaly didn't ask my hand in marriage until he had his citizenship. And as far as his disire to marry me in the first place, perhaps it was the fact I wasn't a (typical american woman) I have always dressed modest, my actions are respectful, I came did my job and was gone, no time to hangout with the girls moreless the guys, independance, and most of all my giant neverending HEART.
I met my husband were we both Worked, don't think that is forbidden! (he/muslim, me/undecided at the moment but from a christian upbringing)
and as far as the rational around it, its even in the bible that the woman always follows the husband and the children as well. And the greencard thing...lol...my husband spacificaly didn't ask my hand in marriage until he had his citizenship. And as far as his disire to marry me in the first place, perhaps it was the fact I wasn't a (typical american woman) I have always dressed modest, my actions are respectful, I came did my job and was gone, no time to hangout with the girls moreless the guys, independance, and most of all my giant neverending HEART.
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.
If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.
The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
Ive been on a few times to go through what your responses were...thank you all for clarifying some aspects of my query.
Just to elaborate a little:
This guy knows more than the sister about islam. He has a few issues with it. Since her religion does not let her marry him, he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
He loves her hijab and way of dress and would never get in the way of their children becoming muslim. He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims. He choses to be an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions. He loves islam and all his friends are muslims. He does not do anything unislamic and practices some islamic principles better than any muslim I know.
I am very very worried that I am beginning to sympathise and agree with the sister and her non-muslim man. How can Islam have an issue with this?
Take him to Afroz Ali and see if he can get him (IA) to make the shahada and explain the last few snags.
As for the issue, its a non negotiable subject. no Imam will do the ceremony. And i am not going to make the judgment because its not my right/responsibility but there is an explicit ayat that deals with this. And another talks about people who take one part of the book and reject the other parts.
Just take them both to Afroz and if they still think its right, well you did your bit.
PS. does your friend think its a sin that she want to marry him, or does she think its halal?
O my Lord,
if I worship you
from fear of hell, burn me in hell.
If I worship you
from hope of Paradise, bar me from its gates.
But if I worship you
for yourself alone, grant me then the beauty of your Face.
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.
If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.
The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
I'm not sure what is holding the guy back from embracing Islam if he sooo loves it...?? If he really lives it, then why not just take his shahada? Does he pray? Since that is what matters most and is what Allah will ask us about first.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
I like what you are saying coz it seems at least you understand what im trying to say.
If this guy and this girl have the chemistry and potential and logic to want to marry one another, their lives must be intune.
The non-muslim guy never drinks..never will, it is haraam to him as he has chosen this practice from the islamic etc faiths as he sees the logic behind it. He loves islam and sees logic in it all, except for the fact that such a beautiful religion doesnt allow him to marry a woman of this religion even though he loves and respects and lives it so well.
We all understand what you are trying to say sis, we are giving you good answers.
I dont quite understand, your saying he loves islam and respects it but the earlier post you said he thinks its a backward religion, illogical and he doesnt feel the need to convert??
"He himself lives like a muslim but does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims"
Sis sevgi tell the sister that this kuffar aint worth marrying, if he doesnt take the shahada then its useless to say anything, she cant marry him! lol why we need to discuss this further? i mean its very simple and straight foward.
should a "Muslim" who marries a Christian lady, keep a supply of the above-mentioned items in his home for the sake of his wife?
brother doorster, I hope you realize this is off-topic, but since you insisted: yes he should if she wants it, she is not muslim so not all of our rules apply to her.
the christians a the time of the prophet were doing those things already-pork, wine, idols- yet the qur'an allowed marriage. enough said.
your other reply was nonsensical, I posted much earlier, when there were no details as him not fully believing etc, so your point is moot, please re-read the thread from the beginning, realize the sequence of what was said then post.
back to topic, the man is practically Muslim, except a few things here and there, they are important though, and if he's come all this way, he might be hesitant to take the few extra steps remaining.
it is quite logical for Islam to have this type of rule when it comes to marriage, for reasons that are quite obvious so I'm not going to go there, but perhaps this person needs to think a bit harder on this and make his choice already?
I mean if he's citing the usual 'backwardness' stuff, then it's probably out of ignorance rather than any deeply existential reasoning.
as it were, we don't claim possession of absolute truth, yes Islam is truth, but not many Muslims will claim that they have a 100% grasp of all of it. so yes, other religions might have some semblance of truth, but then Islam already encompasses the useful/correct parts of both natural and 'sent from god' religions, as such, embracing Islam necessarily entails accepting many parts of the other ways of life too.
if she loves this guy so much, she'd want him to be saved from hell-fire. The only way for that to happen is if he were to convert - even the prophet saw's uncle wasn't saved from the fire, despite how good he was.
for some reason, she doesn't seem to think conversion is an important enough issue. That to me indicates that she herself has problems with iman/understanding of islam. First and foremost, she needs educating on what is and what isn't acceptable.
Go with what pomak says and take them to bro afroz. Inshaallah he'd advise them.
Right!!
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
* he thinks islam is an illogical and 'backward' religion.
* he does not feel the need to convert as he sees islam as being cruel to those who are non-muslims.
* he is an agnostic who embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions
Is this some kind of joke?? the man feels like this about Islam and the girl still wants to marry him? subhanallah
It seems this person only wants to follow what agree's with his own desires and intellect, who is he to decide with his own limited intellect and mind what is logical and un logical, who is he to question the wisdom and laws of Allah? the fact that he questions them is proof that he doesn't believe in Islam as a valid religion.
"The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allaah and His Messenger, to judge between them, is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And such are the successful. And whosoever obeys Allaah and His Messenger , fears Allaah, and revers Him -–such are the successful." (24:51-52)
What kind of person questions the laws of Allah with his own intellect? does he think his mind is more wiser than Allah's and able to decide what is logical and un logical.
"It is not fit for a believer, man or woman, when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter, that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger has indeed strayed in a clear deviation." (Surah Al-Ahzaab 33:36)
Ask this man what he thinks of the messenger of Allah pbuh,
ask him does he believe the messenger of allah to be a true prophet or false liar?
obviously he will say "liar" because he doesn't believe in the bits of Islam that don't agree with his 21st century conditioned intellect.
So then how can she marry some 1 who believes that the prophet is a liar?
How can she marry some who believes the prophet of Islam pbuh brought a "backwards religion"
How can she marry some 1 who believes the prophet of Islam pbuh brought a religion that is cruel to non muslims?
and finally you mentioned he is an agnostic that embraces the beautifull factors of all religions?
what is his definition of "beauty"? I know a man who thought it was beautifull to commit zina (sex outside of marriage) and he was the same
he "only followed the beautifull factors of all religions" so he found a religion where ZINA was acceptable and embraced it because he thought it was beautifull.
I also know a man who thought it was beautifull to drink alcohol and have four wifes so he followd the bit of islam that allows four wifes and carried on with his drinking and eating pork because they were beautifull to him.
I think it's quite obvious that the people who "embraces the beautiful factors of ALL religions"
are only embracing that whic agree's with their desires and intellect and people's definition of beauty differs from person to person and so does their sense of logic.
How does she know that he doesn't embrace the bit of christianity that says jesus is the son of god because he thinks it's beautifull.
it's so stupid this kind of thinking. How can she even think about marrying someone who calls her prophet pbuh a liar??? what an insult, does it not hurt her when she thinks about this?
Okay, I'm gna re-explain things one more time and clarify myself. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.
The girl:
She's a practicing muslim girl. She prays, wears the hijab etc etc etc and has, what would be considered by us random muslims as having solid imaan inshallah.
The guy:
The guy has imaan in the islamic sense. He solidly believes in the six pillars of imaan. He loves God and all religions he has decreed throughout the times. For this reason, he finds a special affiliation with Islam, coz it embraces all of them whereas the others reject islam etc.
He practices many things. He fasts and prays, sometimes the way muslims do, sometimes the way hindus do, he goes to Jumaa sometimes etc etc. In essence, he prays to the ONE god he believes in and does it in many practical forms.
He doesn't drink, backbite, commit zina etc. He loves everything about islam.
He would convert, but as I said in my first post, he does not have the heart to betray his family. The consequences of his conversion are immense...he gets disowned from his family; his surname etc. He becomes dead to his ancestry etc and is expected to start a life with a muslim girl...alone. It is such a sad thought...but it is also very real and I dont think any one of us could stand such a thing...imagine it...I cant...
He didnt say that he thinks islam is backward. I used a bad word. I appologise. The ONLY issue he has with Islam is that he would convert if he could...but cannot. He is hence being punished by Islam for something he cannot help. He has imaan, he lives like a muslim...but isnt one coz he doesnt practice everything. How many of us have claimed shahada? How many of us practice islam to a T?
The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.
(Please dont tell me to tell her to make him convert secretly...disloyalty is disloyalty even in secret..he just wont do it and his parents arent stupid.)
Please dont pick on me...Im pretty impartial to all of this.
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
Dear sevgi, Allah has created millions of muslim men. So let this sister pick a muslim man.
I am sorry but all the good intentions you mentionnned about the guy are not good enough, in my opinion. Loyalty to Allah is more important than loyalty to family.
If due to family reasons this man will remain non-muslim then I would think that before Allah it's not good enough. We cannot question Allah's wisdom when our intelligence is so limited.
It is not good enough to worship Allah in one's heart but follow religious rituals of a false religion for the rest of the day.
If that was ok, then we could all pray to Allah 5 times a day and then (astaghfirullah) worship idols for the rest of the day.
Last edited by mathematician; 06-19-2009 at 02:22 PM.
Our loyalty should belong to Allah subhana we ta'ala.
I can symphatise with the sister, really. I know a few non-Muslim men who are very good, reminding me of what you have told about this guy in question, and I know the women who get them are lucky girls.
She cannot anything else but to forget this man, until he embraces Islam fully she cannot be with him. Well, she can of course do whatever she wants, but it she shouldn't do it Islamically.
It is not Islam which is stopping him from marrying the girl he wants, it is his own family, who is not allowing him to take in the "name" of what he believes in. I mean, who would cut him off for being honest enough to himself and his life, to take the step and convert to Islam, bare the "label" "Muslim".
He should also realize, the life he is living and all what he loves about Islam, if he would start a relationship with this girl, he would slap her and his beliefs in the face for this life, which for us Muslim is worth to sacrifice what we desire and love if it is what our belief requests, because we believe in another, better, fulfilled life. Get me?
I also think, you do stay impartial if it makes you feel better, in the end it is her and his deicision.
“If only I had checked myself”
—
Guy who wrecked himself
True leaders don't create followers...
.... They create new leaders.
Okay, I'm gna re-explain things one more time and clarify myself. I don't want to misrepresent anyone.
The girl:
She's a practicing muslim girl. She prays, wears the hijab etc etc etc and has, what would be considered by us random muslims as having solid imaan inshallah.
The guy:
The guy has imaan in the islamic sense. He solidly believes in the six pillars of imaan. He loves God and all religions he has decreed throughout the times. For this reason, he finds a special affiliation with Islam, coz it embraces all of them whereas the others reject islam etc.
He practices many things. He fasts and prays, sometimes the way muslims do, sometimes the way hindus do, he goes to Jumaa sometimes etc etc. In essence, he prays to the ONE god he believes in and does it in many practical forms.
He doesn't drink, backbite, commit zina etc. He loves everything about islam.
He would convert, but as I said in my first post, he does not have the heart to betray his family. The consequences of his conversion are immense...he gets disowned from his family; his surname etc. He becomes dead to his ancestry etc and is expected to start a life with a muslim girl...alone. It is such a sad thought...but it is also very real and I dont think any one of us could stand such a thing...imagine it...I cant...
He didnt say that he thinks islam is backward. I used a bad word. I appologise. The ONLY issue he has with Islam is that he would convert if he could...but cannot. He is hence being punished by Islam for something he cannot help. He has imaan, he lives like a muslim...but isnt one coz he doesnt practice everything. How many of us have claimed shahada? How many of us practice islam to a T?
The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.
(Please dont tell me to tell her to make him convert secretly...disloyalty is disloyalty even in secret..he just wont do it and his parents arent stupid.)
Please dont pick on me...Im pretty impartial to all of this.
You know what, I just realized something. You said he prays right. Do you realize he makes his shahada in salah EVERYTIME he prays??? You know "Ash hadu an la ilaha ilallah wa ash hadu anna muhammadan abduhu wa rasoolu."
So why is he afraid?? I DONT GET IT!!!! He's saying the shahada EVRYTIME he PRAYS :S Why not just make it public now?? There's no obedience to the creator in disobedience to Allah.
Btw, even born Muslims who never prayed or practised islam need to say it too. You are Muslim through your actions.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
The girl could go marry a semi-practicing or non-practicing muslim and it wouldnt be haraam..sheikhs wouldnt have issues ordaining it... but she cant marry a devout and pious, godfearing man of faith who cannot convert due to his loyalty to his family? It just doesnt seem right.
Sister whats haraam is haraam! you cant make the haraam into halal, we gotta listen to the scholars of Islam since they have a better understanding and also the reason why the Sheikhs would allow the sister to marry a non practicing muslim man is because he is muslim! lol, if this dude dont embrace islam by shahada they cannot marry impossible?
i honestly dont get why theres any point to keep saying the same things over and over lol
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