I want to believe but I just can't

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

I also ask myself, why do people who have had terrible things happen to them still believe in God and become much stronger in their faith? If you've lived as a Muslim, then you should know that this worldly life is ephemeral. Yes we do get tested, but it's not always with pain and it's not always with ourselves. All of us are tested in very different ways. It's through certain tests that we gain experiences and strength that we otherwise would not have had. But I understand what you mean, the fact of the matter is that our focus is the afterlife and our good deeds. So if someone dies or is in pain, be it a child or an adult, the purpose for it is individual and that knowledge is with Allah solely.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha. I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

You're right, during that time things were different in regards to the mindset of the people. Does it mean that these days it is unacceptable islamically if the circumstances are very similar as you had pointed out?? No.

But if we are going to go by definition here, pedophilia is characterized by any 16 year old or older who is attracted to prepubescent kids. That means that if a 16 year old boy is attracted to a 13-year old girl, he is a pedophile. To be honest, this definition doesn't make sense because girls these days look much older than they really are and considering the age gap between them, it's only 3 years.

You could argue that you're talking about a 50 year old man wanting to marry a 9 year old girl, but it's not really that different because honestly guys are attracted to females point blank. If the girl is attractive, a guy will be attracted to her regardless of her age. There are 70 year olds who are married to 18 year olds, that's a 52 year difference. There are 13 year olds married to 14 year olds; both being "underage" and pubescent. If you want to follow a western ideology, then when it comes to marriage, age shouldn't matter, right??

Marriage should not be something that strips away from a person's life, it's something that is a blessing. Anything that makes it feel otherwise is poisonous. It's not something that should happen in secret or as a business transaction (like some cultures make it where they "sell off" their daughters). It's a celebration of two people who believe they are compatible for the rest of their lives, who will balance one another in faith, and who are following the laws ordained by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. That being said, the majority of scholars believe that is preferable for girls to marry once they reach the age of puberty (sexual maturity), and not before. But for the rare cases that it does happen, then it depends on the interests of the girl first and foremost. Girls these days are sexually curious and having intercourse at 9 years old. I personally think marriage is much more suitable and safer for them than in a culture that condemns "child marriages" but does very little in preventing a sexually geared atmosphere where they can easily be raped, molested, and pregnant. So there's really nothing that says that it's unsafe for girls to get married or be in a relationship at that age unless the marriage is unhealthy and destructive in nature which is unislamic. And when it comes to pregnancies, there are complications in every pregnancy whether the woman is an adult or a child. Some women die too..so really that's not a strong argument. The child marriages you imagine are the ones that come out of poverty, backward cultures, and ignorance. The pedophiles you think about are the ones where men can be attracted to boys just as well as girls, who are a danger to children, and who victimize them. None of this is allowed in Islam.

Now with your comment regarding why shouldn't all men emulate the prophet pbuh and marry children? Because the prophet did not marry for the sake of his desires and he married a range of different women and he treated them all very well and they loved him to death. Marriage in general is sunnah. It's not obligatory. Marrying children isn't obligatory either. It's just something that is allowed if something of that case happened where a man finds himself interested in a girl and she is of a certain age. In the US there are many states which have no age minimum for marriage. Isn't that crazy? But the difference with the westernized world and Islam is that Islam has universal rules. It's not based on the whims and desires of people where it changes ever so often. The connotation of pedophilia often comes with a lot of perversions that are not allowed in Islam, and there is no exception to it whether the man who wants to marry is 13 or 70.

(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Welcome to the forum, sister @Kazu. Thank you for entrusting us with your concern and queries; we appreciate your trust in us, and we hope we can do justice to that trust.

I used to be a staunch materialist atheist. I turned Muslim after I'd completed college, and I've remained a Muslim for some years now. I should mention I did not want to adopt Islam nor was I looking for a religion at the time this happened, but Islam took me by surprise, and I fell in love with Islam after studying it deeply and reflecting on the patterns in my own life and that I saw in life of humanity. Since I studied Islam from both the proper sources and used to peruse Islamophobic sites as well (the latter not being something I'd recommend for sincere seekers), I think I can address at least some of your concerns. Having said that, God-willing I or others can answer more of your questions and give you the satisfaction you seek in your heart, mind, and, soul if God wills.

Logical thinking is important to ascertaining facts in life. Islam doesn't negate logical thinking or halt people from exercising their mental faculties or intelligence to reach logical conclusions. What Islam instead advises is that you as an individual and a thinking human being have to acquire knowledge and learn and reflect and travel and observe and ponder and study until you reach the point of certainty in faith. After you've reached the point of certainty in faith, you have to subordinate your logic to primordial instinct and inclination to faith. For example, if you have seen Russel Crowe's movie The Next Three Days, you'll have an understanding of why that should be. Russel Crowe's character John in the movie has lived with his wife in peace and happiness, and they also have a young child. However, one day, their life is turned upside-down his wife is arrested for murder of her boss and she goes to jail and the courts also find her guilty; every single shred of evidence points to his wife's guilt, but he believes in her innocence. And the audience learns that she is innocent also, despite what logic would have the police understand, which is to judge her guilty. So, understand that logic is a tool, but it can never be a substitute for or replacement for faith. This is also evidenced in the case of Iblees who logically concluded that he was better than Adam (peace be upon him) because Iblees was created from fire whereas Adam (peace be upon him) was created from clay. Also, understand that logic can be used in what will upend morality and become another tool of Satanic wish-fulfillment. For example, on this board, we recently had a young teenage Muslim boy saying that in Islam touching is not allowed of opposite sex. So, what if he wore a condom and had sex with a girl because then he wouldn't be touching her with his penis as the condom would be covering his male appendage. So, the boy is logically correct, but he is of course subverting the intent and the language and the purpose of Islam's prohibition on touching the opposite sex. Learn, therefore, to think of logic as a tool but not the supreme tool, especially in matters of faith.

I'll tackle some other questions later as it's quite late at night, and I accidentally stumbled upon this thread after being unable to sleep. So, I'll answer some other questions later. At this time though, I'd like to clarify the issue that you brought in respect to Aisha (may God be pleased with her). I hope you know that she was engaged before Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) ever came into her life. Moreover, it wasn't Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who thought of the marriage first, but he (peace and blessings be upon him) was given a divine dream three times indicating that he should or will marry her, and Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) peaceably submitted to God's Will. To be blunt, the marriage cannot be considered pedophilia because WebMd describes pedophilia as "a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger." However, we know that all the other women whom Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were much older, widows and divorcees. In fact, Khadija (may God be pleased with her) was a 40-year old woman to his (peace and blessings be upon him) young 25-year old self. Also, pedophiles lose attraction for a person once they turn older, which Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never did for Aisha even as she aged for the rest of the years that he (peace and blessings be upon him). Pedophiles do not seek marriage but sexual gratification as the immediate end of their fantasy is simply deflowering the girl and does not involve taking responsibility for her in life and treating her as an equal partner. If you read the Seerah of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), you'll immediately realize that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was never treated as anything but an equal partner and that she was a firebrand who never raised any objections either prior to the marriage or long after the marriage had ceased to exist with the death of her noble husband (peace and blessings be upon him). Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was happy in her marriage and herself praised his noble character (peace and blessings be upon him); if there was any lewdness or indecency in the outlook of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she would have been the first to know or report because she was never one to hold her tongue irrespective of the position of the person facing her. So, finally, you should realize that Aisha (peace and blessings be upon him) was an exception in Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) life, the only person who was young and virgin chosen by God. There is much wisdom behind this marriage, and one of the wisdom that we may surmise from this marriage is that the young age of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) still had her youthful ability to memorize and relay all aspects of Sunnah (prophetic footsteps) accurately; that is because scientifically we know today that our memory is best when we're younger and deteriorates as we age. Also, if you go back in global history, you'll find that Western marriages were also conducted very young in many cases among the aristocratic set. Parents married their toddlers to other older people because marriage was seen as a way to cement alliance between powerful families; that is why, for example, you'll find that in well-researched historical romance novels, you'll find this theme being replayed. One such example is the historical romance novel The Gift authored by Julie Garwood in which an example is given of child marriage. Also, child marriages still occur in villages in India and tribes in Africa; in fact, a hit fictional television series called Balika Vadhu in India portrays onscreen the journey of a child bride. Also, again, I emphasize that the marriage with Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was an exception for many enumerated reasons, and there is no Islamic reason to believe that the high emphasis on emulation of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) need include us in an exception in doing the same when clearly exceptions do not inform the norm nor are they meant to inform the norm.

Also, I acknowledge your point about the modern-day problems that child brides experience such as anal fistula or being too young to give birth or internal bleeding. However, if you believe we have as human beings not evolved over a millennia, you'd be incorrect.

[H]adeeth was narrated by Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) who said: “Allaah created Adam and he was sixty cubits tall. Then He said, ‘Go and greet those angels and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your progeny.’ He said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (Peace be upon you).’ They said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah).’ So they added the words ‘wa rahmat Allaah.’ And everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam. People kept on growing smaller until now.”

According to a version narrated by Muslim: “Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam who was sixty cubits tall. People kept growing smaller until now.”

With regard to the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), “People kept growing smaller until now,” al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari (6/367): “This means that in every generation people grew shorter than the previous generation, and continued to grow shorter until the time of this ummah, then they stayed like that.”

This necessarily means that we've evolved as human beings in our development and there is no reason to believe that we've stopped evolving in other specific ways; so, it is quite possible that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) had attained maturity in her time in her development despite her age in that time and that modern girls of a similar age today do not attain to maturity in that same way, which is why they might experience the problems you've mentioned.

Suffering and evil are a part of life as you yourself said in the earliest part of your post. Do you know why both exist? Suffering exists when we attach our hearts to ephemeral things. Children, as beautiful and as innocent as they are, are just part of existence, not the defining points of our existence. However, whenever we ascribe or choose to define ourselves by the things or beings we possess, you should realize that instead those things have possessed us. People run after fame, but become depressed or suicidal after their fame runs out, and they're no longer treated to that adulation. People run after wealth, but they become depressed or suicidal after the wealth runs out, and they're no longer privy to the luxuries they enjoyed. People run after spouses and children, but they become depressed or suicidal after their spouse dies or their children die, no longer giving them meaning in life. However, these are just gifts, for the Owner to do with as the Owner pleases; they never belonged to the people who felt that they had a right to them in the first place. We human beings should not attach our hearts to that which is temporary and instead look to God, the Eternal, to attach our hearts. Do you know what the logical opposite of light is? It is the absence of the light, which we call darkness. Do you know what the logical opposite of goodness is? It is the absence of goodness, which we call evil. God did not create evil; the very inability for human beings to govern their egos and free themselves from negative influence whether mental, psychical, or spiritual results in evil. So, you should not seek to blame God for that which God is not responsible. We all have Free Will from birth to grave; we choose what we want and the responsibility of not exercising the freedom properly is not the fault of God but human beings. For example, there are traffic laws which asks us to stop at a red signal. Do you blame the red signal for a car driving through the red light and causing an accident? No, right. That's because the red traffic light is an instrument of neutrality. In that same way, God has promised to judge our actions in the Hereafter, but here in this world we're given free will and God listens to our prayers and answers them but God has given us free will in life as an instrument of neutrality to exercise in whichever way we will.

You mentioned that there are cases wherein some children were kidnapped from their houses, gang-raped and burnt to death and you asked how was that a test. Recognize God has created two worlds, the Seen and the Unseen. In the Seen world, you see from the materialist perspective the horrible way in which an innocent child died and for no reason. However, in the Unseen world, you see from the spiritual perspective the martyrdom that that the innocent child achieved and the higher status in Paradise were it not for the horrible way in which this innocent child had died and now his/her death becomes an instrument for the parents to revive/maintain their faith and for the wider world to become aware of guarding their children from predators. In the Unseen world, a bad thing that happens in the Seen world is still an event from which a spiritual and/or material good ensues.

Since you've said that you'd became an agnostic several months ago, I think you need to rethink your agnosticism but in ways that are going to be conducive to you attaining belief. First and foremost, recognize that we're all (Muslims and non-Muslims) on a spiritual journey, regardless of whether're cognizant of this fact or not. What is important therefore is that we all realize that neither belief nor nonbelief are permanent states of being; rather, they're both simply states of existence that are subject to processes of thinking and processes of life. Therefore, I think it is important that you learn to see your nonbelief as a blank slate from which you're going to be building up your faith God-willing. Remember the first words of the testimony of faith known as shahada is "I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." So, you already have the blank slate of the shahada as per the highlighted portion in maroon red as a gateway to the acknowledgement of the rest. If you do not give into this state of anxiety and stay calm and focused, frankly, I think you here might have a golden opportunity here that many people do not have, which is to have an iman (faith) that is going to become the stuff of mountains that nobody will be able to move because hopefully you'll be able to build from a solid foundation this time around. As a starting point, I think you should watch the YouTube videos Divine Prologue 1 and Divine Prologue 2 and tell me if you still feel the same way. With anything good in life in which you want to invest, you'll have to give your time, energy, and attention. So, if truth and faith is something you desire, I hope you'll not mind devoting the time, energy, and attention building yourself up in this matter will require. If you do so, I'm inclined to think God-willing you'll be better off in the end for it and perhaps even some day recognize the wisdom and value of God having you taken down that path so that hopefully you'll be able to then be the light that guides other Muslims when they should fall off the bandwagon as you did here in your story. However, that's going too far yet into the future, and we'll both have to agree to take you taking it easy on yourself by going one step at one time. Agreed?

Last Point: Faith is that which the heart believes but the mind denies. It would be useless for anyone to try to build knowledge of faith on the level of the mind as faith exists on a spiritual plane and that plane resides in the heart. So, if your heart corrects you, your faith will become revived. So, if I were you, I'd focus on correcting the heart that became an instrument of corruption (which fed off of the doubts you'd been having and led to agnosticism materializing as an organic path and natural outcome). Remember Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "There lies within the body a piece of flesh. If it is sound, the whole body is sound; and if it is corrupted, the whole body is corrupted. Verily this piece is the heart." The aphorism in the hadith (prophetic tradition) is stating a profound and primordial Spiritual Law governing us.

Take care.

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,

Welcome to IB.

You are going through what most intelligent people would go through. Where does our world exist? In our minds. If you dare question, then you can raise doubts.

I would say a fairly big chunk of your 'issues' (Aisha aside, as very nicely narrated by sis Search above) might be cleared if you listen to Jeffrey Lang on YouTube "the Purpose of Life". It's about an hour and a half but well worth it. The start is a bit slow but necessary. I only wished that the end was not rushed.

Wishing you a great stay.

To explain part by part, one must first logically, rationally and reasonably with evidence if possible backup the argument of a Creator. I think (Without pride) i can answer most of your questions better than most other members. As i myself was born a Muslim became an atheist and again by choice have become Muslim after doing my own research.

I follow mostly logic, rationality and reason with scientific FACTS if they exist. I also ponder a lot before just saying something out in the open. So let's begin in'sha'Allah.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

Greetings people, Muslims and nons, no offense to the Muslims. I want to get this off my chest for a long time. I'm a closet ex-muslim, 22. Since childhood I had so many doubts about Islam, particularly about the existence of God himself (1). How can God let really evil things happen? if everything evil meant to happen because God wants to test us and given that the tests given aren't supposed to exceed our limit as humans, why do God let terrible things happen to children? There are cases some children were kidnapped from their houses, was gang-raped, and burnt to death. (2)How was that a test? I may just be really ignorant for not making sense of this, kindly, please enlighten me.

(1) (Existence of a Creator) Science in this day and age comes with the explanation of the big bang. With the big bang scientist say this is the moment that time and space both came in to existence. So before the big bang time and space did not exist. Atheism begins with the big bang, but logic and rationality do NOT start with the big bang, they start BEFORE the big bang as what caused the big bang to come to exist? Atheist often talk a lot about their belief (yes it is also a belief-system, as they have not seen all those things with their own eyes) but when you ask them what came before the big bang, the argument of something starting out of nothing contradicts mathematics. 0 + 0 = 0 . Something cannot come in to existence out of nothing. So we cannot mathematically say 0+0=1. This is logically and rationality NOT acceptable. I have heard about multivers-theory, but STILL the argument exist of what came BEFORE the multivers? The problem however with atheism, they ONLY accept 1+1=2 argument. So this is one of the BIGGEST even BIGGER problem than their missing-link theory within evolution-theory that is the back breaker of atheism it self. So if the current logic and rationality and reason does not fix the problem with what caused the big bang. ONLY philosophical answer to that is something must have already existed. As if you for example say what became before a multivers, then you will be trapped in a answer never capable of being answered. One can say, but saying something already exist, doesn't answer the question what came before the big bang. The answer to that, is no it does answer it. Think with me.

Scientist say time and space came in to existence with the the big bang. So whatever was BEFORE the big bang does NOT live/function/role with the criteria of time and space. This answer sub'han'Allah is confirmed in the Qur'an.

"Nor is there to Him any equivalent." Qur'an 112:4

Within this universe, we compare things, like saying a Mercedes is better than a BMW based on certain criteria. So also with time and space we think, this Creator should somehow abide by these rulings within this universe. However again, time and space came in to existence AFTER the big bang. So whatever we try to compare outside this universe goes beyond our imagination or logic, rationality and reason. I mean we cannot even imagine how it is to not have time or space. So in the Qur'an if there is NO equivalent to Him, then by default we cannot compare Him to anything of existence within this universe that abides by rulings of time and space. So everything outside this universe is beyond our limitations as human beings. The big bang was the beginning of this universe. We KNOW everything that has a beginning as a end. Like you were born and you will die. A tree comes out of a seed and dies again after so many years. The answer even to this is given in the Qur'an.

"He neither begets nor is born," Qur'an 112:3

So indeed, the philosophical answer earlier (ONLY philosophical answer to that is something must have already existed) we could give that something already must have existed is also answered by this. If something is not born/come to existence, it also does not die/go away.

Now also knowing this and understanding this, you could say well there is a Creator. So having concluded this, all other belief-systems (atheism, agnosticism) automatically become false. I once had the discussion with a female atheist she said there was a theory that said something can come out of existence out of nothing. Within atheistic believe, this goes against logic, rationality and reason. Within Islam this theory is even confirmed with this..

"......And the day He says, "Be," and it is....." Qur'an 6:73

Something can come out of nothing by His word.

So now, having also made the cause of the big bang explained, you THEN go by rulings of logic, rationality and reason.

(2) The problem often is that we always look from OUR perspective a things. For example i say shirt X is blue, you say shirt X is green. This is from our perspective. If i have a blue glasses on, indeed it is FOR SURE a blue shirt that i am seeing and i am not lying. However you are also right if you have a green tinted glasses so to say. However if a third person looks at it and does not wear any glasses nor is he color blind, he sees a white shirt.

So the case with those children, it becomes not a test anymore to them. That is their fate. However it becomes a test for those criminals and argument against them on the Day of Judgement. On the Day of Judgement having all your sins on somebody else's book is a BIG relieve. I mean being killed by a person is a HUGE relieve as that individual will carry my sins (if i indeed was killed unjustly). Besides that there is the argument that that individual who has done that awful crime could become a savior of people. Often it is sheytan that whispers to us to do this and do that. However after doing such awful things our fitrah(human nature) kicks in and feel remorse. Whatever you want to do you can do..as this world is a free "playground", but know there is a Day of Judgement for your actions.

A good story in the Qur'an to explain for example a bit of this is the story of al-khidr killing that young boy. While Musa(as) became all angry..etc. Later on we knew the story about the boy and why he was killed or that was his destiny. After knowing the whole story we say..indeed logically, rationally and reasonably we accept the fate of that child being killed by al-Khidr as Allah(swt) knows everything as a hole (past, present, future, also the choices you make etc. etc). While we don't.

If you don't agree with these answers, please reply and PLEASE stick to logic, rationality and reason with evidence if possible. Also about the big bang part, if you do not agree, i expect you to give me your answer than. I do not accept "your answer is rubbish and do not give me a argument against it". This is the mentality of weak and dishonest people and i do not have the feeling you are that type of a person.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

But then, after all of that, I would repent to Allah and became religious. I found myself always going back and forth. In the past, I used to cry in my sujood, I used to cry when reading the Koran, I used to be very careful with my thinking bcos I feared Allah so much. (3) I loved Ramadhan very much, that's the only time I truly felt connected to Allah by doing extra prayers, learning stuff & taking care of my inner self. Normally people would usually dread bcos of the fasting, but really I loved Ramadhan, it truly made me a better person, but just like every other religion will make people become a better person. My family weren't very religious, so I searched God most by myself. But until I opened myself to the outer world, I started becoming friends with some non muslims, reading forums and articles etc. I changed my views on life, (4) I became very liberal in my thinking, and this wasn't a good thing. I debated with my muslim friends and I just couldn't convince them anything bcos of how conservative they are. I heard religious teachers said on TV that Islam favors blind faith over logical thinking so Muslims shouldn't first and foremost use logic when dealing with religion. I couldn't believe what I just heard. If this is what humans should be, then I don't think the world could have advanced to what it is now.

(3) There is the reason why you felt much better in Ramadan. Within Islam we know that is the moment when sheytan is chained. So that is also the moment we do not have to deal with waswassa(whispering) of sheytan. The only dealing is our own nafs. Which suddenly becomes as if it is NOTHING. As if it is a piece of cake to deal with our nafs. When you feel the pressure 100%(lets say this is sheytan's time) and suddenly feel 50% (no sheytan) it is as if this 50% is 0%. The people who feel ramadan as a burden are people who listen to sheytan often when it is not Ramadan. So they are the "slaves" so to say of sheytan. When somebody fights against sheytan the whole year and suddenly there is no sheytan for 1 month (Ramadan) you become like a free person. A person who always listens to sheytan the whole year around, will see Ramadan as a burden because this goes against what sheytan has told them to do the whole year. Suddenly do not fill up your belly completely. While Islam says do not fill up your belly. etc. etc.

(4) I have also read other arguments and articles and views. However reading a argument and articles and view, doesn't make it dangerous. What makes it dangerous are two things. They give you a satisfying answer, but not telling you everything. This is blindly following their argument/view. I was also like that. I heard the comparison they made with apes and human beings and i believed them. Later on when i began questioning things and really pondering about stuff and observing stuff, i saw MANY..MANY contradictions in their argument.

I can say to you, sister eat yogurt it is good for you. This is how i followed them in the beginning and believing in their nonsense.

However with that sentence "sister eat yogurt it is good for you" you can further analyze it.

- Who told you it is good for me?
- Is that individual trustworthy?
- Who does pay this person for his/her research if that has been done?
- Based on what evidence has this person come up with this conclusion?
- What are the negative "side effects" of it?
- Define what is "good"
- How many people have been tested in that research?
- How was their lifestyle during that research?
- What kind of food or lifestyle did they(test subjects) have in common?
etc. etc. etc. etc.

You see, suddenly things become .."a bit" harder to answer. This has been my attitude with Islam from the start when i embraced it by choice. EVERY time my questions have been answered. The answers come from all kind of directions. From youtube video, to a comment made on a youtube video, to a topic or comment on forums, or somebody i talked to outside or seen behavior of people outside or simple even looking at the sky or animals and their behavior. My eyes are open for observation and my mind is open for wanting to understand it and process it. I do not criticize as "i know better" i criticize as ..i want to know and understand... i am a student...not a teacher. Atheism the best i can compare with is a liar when you have come to know he has lied to you..and he cannot escape from that situation..the expression on his face . You lose all the respect for that individual.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

There are some controversial verses of Quran and Hadiths that I just couldn't make sense of, especially the part about the prophet's wife Aisha (5). I've had non muslims asking me about this, no matter how hard I tried to make sense, I know deep in my heart I was just convincing myself, not them. Aisha might be a smart, mature girl for her age, but sorry this is not excuse for pedophilia. Would you marry off your girl to a 50+ old man , just to be fair, assuming the man is not just plain old man, but handsome , looking younger than his actual age, very kind in heart and very religious, even with the girl's consent? Apologists will say this was acceptable at that time, but I thought Islam is supposed to be timeless as I was taught in school. If he is the perfect role model then I think all muslims should aspire to do the same thing as well. Child marriages is still an actual thing happening now and it strips off lives of young girls. (6) Some of these girls suffer complications at childbirth like anal fistula because they are too young to give birth. Some cases girls die of internal bleeding because their sexual organs are not compatible. I understand that the girl needed to be checked whether they're ready to withstand penetration, I say this can be misjudged and girls are not born just to be penetrated.

(5) About the case of Rasullah(saws) and Aisha(ra), the argument AGAIN it is very easy. First we need to lay the foundation.

- Islam is AGAINST forceful marriages
- In Islam a marriage is ONLY permissible if both the parties agree to the marriage
- In Islam a woman can marry a man like a man can marry a woman AFTER they have become adults.
- What is adulthood in Islam? Puberty.

Now we know these things we further can analyze the situation. We KNOW that Aisha(ra) has agreed to marry Rasullah(saws) like Rasullah(saws) has agreed to marry Aisha(ra). So no force able marriage here. Some scholars say age X while other scholars say age Y and other scholars say age Z. I myself was NOT present at that time. I am also NOT a scholar. What do i choose? I choose the path of she already had become a woman and she agreed to marry Rasullah(saws). What age was she? I do not know and i do not care, because in Islam it all is according to becoming a man or a woman. From then on you are responsible for your own deeds.

The question is, would i marry my own daughter at the age of 14 for example when she has become a woman? My answer to that no. Why? Psychically becoming a woman is 1 thing, but often they look like full women but have the mind of a child. How can my own daughter take care of a child if she herself thinks as a child? You get me?

In this day and age i have talked to girls 20-21 years old, it is as if i am talking to a 8 year old girl. Such a childish mentality. No responsibility..NOTHING. So even if my own daughter would want to marry at the age of 14 and i know she is mentally not capable to even take care of her self, i would not allow it. She would only do harm to her husband, her children and her self. Girls 50 years back at the age of 10 were mentally mature. The knew how to survive even if nobody was at home. Go ask the average girl of 10 years old to cook you a decent meal..how many are able to do that? This is a blessing in poor countries as those girls and boys indeed are capable while here in the west ..MEN/WOMEN have mentality of children.

(6) We look at age, but forget the world we are living in. The question is why in Islam a man/woman is a adult when reaching that age? Often the problem is not the age, but the food and environment we are in. Living here in the west, our food is POISON to us. There is almost no food or some pork additive has been added. While even science tells us to better not eat pork. Companies only care about money. Politicians only care about money. Since WW1 the amount of illnesses that have come in to existence have risen tremendously. WHY? WHY? WHY? Nobody is asking anything. Do you really think if you eat this poison that your child would not have such problems? ..as the ones you are mentioning? Action reaction sister. Wifi, cellular radiation and other stuff. Every time some article appears..companies are trying to hide the truth. Look at those research articles about for example sugar not being bad for you. You look who did the research and who funded them..(Coca Cola, Pepsi...)..You REALLY think that Coca Cola would fund or let the results of a research come in to the open that indeed says sugar in the present day is bad for you?

THINK sister..THINK DEEPLY..question things. Don't just see something and become all emotional and think Islam is at fault. It has a reason why things are how they are. Stop filling up your brain with rubbish and for example look at documentaries such as Food, Inc. (2008)

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

I became agnostic several months ago, I stopped praying 5 times. No, no satan is whispering on me. How can I blame the satan for my own actions? Tbh it left a void in me but this is just because I lost something I used to usually keep in my heart. I was like a meat lover who just became vegan. But after some while I felt normal like every other person but sad that I have to pretend to my family all of my life. I'm not really happy not believing in God, I want to believe spiritually, I want to be in heaven with all my loved ones, but with these flaws in religion I just couldn't. If there are anybody here who used to be atheists/agnostic, can you share how did you even make sense of this? I don't want to continuously pretend to everyone. Soo sorry for the length and Tq

Sister to be honest i do not care if you are a Muslim or become atheist. I will not sleep better of it. However the ONLY thing i care about if somebody is honestly searching for the truth and honestly is asking questions to want to know and understand things. So go and ask yourself, do i just want to pursue atheism or agnosticism..if so the road is open for you to pursue that. If you say know i really want to walk on the path of whatever the truth is..then my advice START pondering more often. The questions you have, Allah(swt) will answer them. But keep your eyes open and ponder often.

If you disagree with any of what i have told you in this comment, please reply to it so i can also learn. If not..you have two choices..agree to it become Muslim yet again..or disagree with it with a argument or disagree with it without argument. Choice is yours .

Peace

As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. - Qur'an 2/6

Scimi

format_quote Originally Posted by Search

(In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

Welcome to the forum, sister @Kazu. Thank you for entrusting us with your concern and queries; we appreciate your trust in us, and we hope we can do justice to that trust.

I used to be a staunch materialist atheist. I turned Muslim after I'd completed college, and I've remained a Muslim for some years now. I should mention I did not want to adopt Islam nor was I looking for a religion at the time this happened, but Islam took me by surprise, and I fell in love with Islam after studying it deeply and reflecting on the patterns in my own life and that I saw in life of humanity. Since I studied Islam from both the proper sources and used to peruse Islamophobic sites as well (the latter not being something I'd recommend for sincere seekers), I think I can address at least some of your concerns. Having said that, God-willing I or others can answer more of your questions and give you the satisfaction you seek in your heart, mind, and, soul if God wills.

Logical thinking is important to ascertaining facts in life. Islam doesn't negate logical thinking or halt people from exercising their mental faculties or intelligence to reach logical conclusions. What Islam instead advises is that you as an individual and a thinking human being have to acquire knowledge and learn and reflect and travel and observe and ponder and study until you reach the point of certainty in faith. After you've reached the point of certainty in faith, you have to subordinate your logic to primordial instinct and inclination to faith. For example, if you have seen Russel Crowe's movie The Next Three Days, you'll have an understanding of why that should be. Russel Crowe's character John in the movie has lived with his wife in peace and happiness, and they also have a young child. However, one day, their life is turned upside-down his wife is arrested for murder of her boss and she goes to jail and the courts also find her guilty; every single shred of evidence points to his wife's guilt, but he believes in her innocence. And the audience learns that she is innocent also, despite what logic would have the police understand, which is to judge her guilty. So, understand that logic is a tool, but it can never be a substitute for or replacement for faith. This is also evidenced in the case of Iblees who logically concluded that he was better than Adam (peace be upon him) because Iblees was created from fire whereas Adam (peace be upon him) was created from clay. Also, understand that logic can be used in what will upend morality and become another tool of Satanic wish-fulfillment. For example, on this board, we recently had a young teenage Muslim boy saying that in Islam touching is not allowed of opposite sex. So, what if he wore a condom and had sex with a girl because then he wouldn't be touching her with his penis as the condom would be covering his male appendage. So, the boy is logically correct, but he is of course subverting the intent and the language and the purpose of Islam's prohibition on touching the opposite sex. Learn, therefore, to think of logic as a tool but not the supreme tool, especially in matters of faith.

I'll tackle some other questions later as it's quite late at night, and I accidentally stumbled upon this thread after being unable to sleep. So, I'll answer some other questions later. At this time though, I'd like to clarify the issue that you brought in respect to Aisha (may God be pleased with her). I hope you know that she was engaged before Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) ever came into her life. Moreover, it wasn't Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) who thought of the marriage first, but he (peace and blessings be upon him) was given a divine dream three times indicating that he should or will marry her, and Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) peaceably submitted to God's Will. To be blunt, the marriage cannot be considered pedophilia because WebMd describes pedophilia as "a sustained sexual orientation toward children, generally aged 13 or younger." However, we know that all the other women whom Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) were much older, widows and divorcees. In fact, Khadija (may God be pleased with her) was a 40-year old woman to his (peace and blessings be upon him) young 25-year old self. Also, pedophiles lose attraction for a person once they turn older, which Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) never did for Aisha even as she aged for the rest of the years that he (peace and blessings be upon him). Pedophiles do not seek marriage but sexual gratification as the immediate end of their fantasy is simply deflowering the girl and does not involve taking responsibility for her in life and treating her as an equal partner. If you read the Seerah of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), you'll immediately realize that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was never treated as anything but an equal partner and that she was a firebrand who never raised any objections either prior to the marriage or long after the marriage had ceased to exist with the death of her noble husband (peace and blessings be upon him). Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was happy in her marriage and herself praised his noble character (peace and blessings be upon him); if there was any lewdness or indecency in the outlook of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), she would have been the first to know or report because she was never one to hold her tongue irrespective of the position of the person facing her. So, finally, you should realize that Aisha (peace and blessings be upon him) was an exception in Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) life, the only person who was young and virgin chosen by God. There is much wisdom behind this marriage, and one of the wisdom that we may surmise from this marriage is that the young age of Aisha (may God be pleased with her) still had her youthful ability to memorize and relay all aspects of Sunnah (prophetic footsteps) accurately; that is because scientifically we know today that our memory is best when we're younger and deteriorates as we age. Also, if you go back in global history, you'll find that Western marriages were also conducted very young in many cases among the aristocratic set. Parents married their toddlers to other older people because marriage was seen as a way to cement alliance between powerful families; that is why, for example, you'll find that in well-researched historical romance novels, you'll find this theme being replayed. One such example is the historical romance novel The Gift authored by Julie Garwood in which an example is given of child marriage. Also, child marriages still occur in villages in India and tribes in Africa; in fact, a hit fictional television series called Balika Vadhu in India portrays onscreen the journey of a child bride. Also, again, I emphasize that the marriage with Aisha (may God be pleased with her) was an exception for many enumerated reasons, and there is no Islamic reason to believe that the high emphasis on emulation of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) need include us in an exception in doing the same when clearly exceptions do not inform the norm nor are they meant to inform the norm.

Also, I acknowledge your point about the modern-day problems that child brides experience such as anal fistula or being too young to give birth or internal bleeding. However, if you believe we have as human beings not evolved over a millennia, you'd be incorrect.
This necessarily means that we've evolved as human beings in our development and there is no reason to believe that we've stopped evolving in other specific ways; so, it is quite possible that Aisha (may God be pleased with her) had attained maturity in her time in her development despite her age in that time and that modern girls of a similar age today do not attain to maturity in that same way, which is why they might experience the problems you've mentioned.

Suffering and evil are a part of life as you yourself said in the earliest part of your post. Do you know why both exist? Suffering exists when we attach our hearts to ephemeral things. Children, as beautiful and as innocent as they are, are just part of existence, not the defining points of our existence. However, whenever we ascribe or choose to define ourselves by the things or beings we possess, you should realize that instead those things have possessed us. People run after fame, but become depressed or suicidal after their fame runs out, and they're no longer treated to that adulation. People run after wealth, but they become depressed or suicidal after the wealth runs out, and they're no longer privy to the luxuries they enjoyed. People run after spouses and children, but they become depressed or suicidal after their spouse dies or their children die, no longer giving them meaning in life. However, these are just gifts, for the Owner to do with as the Owner pleases; they never belonged to the people who felt that they had a right to them in the first place. We human beings should not attach our hearts to that which is temporary and instead look to God, the Eternal, to attach our hearts. Do you know what the logical opposite of light is? It is the absence of the light, which we call darkness. Do you know what the logical opposite of goodness is? It is the absence of goodness, which we call evil. God did not create evil; the very inability for human beings to govern their egos and free themselves from negative influence whether mental, psychical, or spiritual results in evil. So, you should not seek to blame God for that which God is not responsible. We all have Free Will from birth to grave; we choose what we want and the responsibility of not exercising the freedom properly is not the fault of God but human beings. For example, there are traffic laws which asks us to stop at a red signal. Do you blame the red signal for a car driving through the red light and causing an accident? No, right. That's because the red traffic light is an instrument of neutrality. In that same way, God has promised to judge our actions in the Hereafter, but here in this world we're given free will and God listens to our prayers and answers them but God has given us free will in life as an instrument of neutrality to exercise in whichever way we will.

You mentioned that there are cases wherein some children were kidnapped from their houses, gang-raped and burnt to death and you asked how was that a test. Recognize God has created two worlds, the Seen and the Unseen. In the Seen world, you see from the materialist perspective the horrible way in which an innocent child died and for no reason. However, in the Unseen world, you see from the spiritual perspective the martyrdom that that the innocent child achieved and the higher status in Paradise were it not for the horrible way in which this innocent child had died and now his/her death becomes an instrument for the parents to revive/maintain their faith and for the wider world to become aware of guarding their children from predators. In the Unseen world, a bad thing that happens in the Seen world is still an event from which a spiritual and/or material good ensues.

Since you've said that you'd became an agnostic several months ago, I think you need to rethink your agnosticism but in ways that are going to be conducive to you attaining belief. First and foremost, recognize that we're all (Muslims and non-Muslims) on a spiritual journey, regardless of whether're cognizant of this fact or not. What is important therefore is that we all realize that neither belief nor nonbelief are permanent states of being; rather, they're both simply states of existence that are subject to processes of thinking and processes of life. Therefore, I think it is important that you learn to see your nonbelief as a blank slate from which you're going to be building up your faith God-willing. Remember the first words of the testimony of faith known as shahada is "I bear witness that there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." So, you already have the blank slate of the shahada as per the highlighted portion in maroon red as a gateway to the acknowledgement of the rest. If you do not give into this state of anxiety and stay calm and focused, frankly, I think you here might have a golden opportunity here that many people do not have, which is to have an iman (faith) that is going to become the stuff of mountains that nobody will be able to move because hopefully you'll be able to build from a solid foundation this time around. As a starting point, I think you should watch the YouTube videos Divine Prologue 1 and Divine Prologue 2 and tell me if you still feel the same way. With anything good in life in which you want to invest, you'll have to give your time, energy, and attention. So, if truth and faith is something you desire, I hope you'll not mind devoting the time, energy, and attention building yourself up in this matter will require. If you do so, I'm inclined to think God-willing you'll be better off in the end for it and perhaps even some day recognize the wisdom and value of God having you taken down that path so that hopefully you'll be able to then be the light that guides other Muslims when they should fall off the bandwagon as you did here in your story. However, that's going too far yet into the future, and we'll both have to agree to take you taking it easy on yourself by going one step at one time. Agreed?

Last Point: Faith is that which the heart believes but the mind denies. It would be useless for anyone to try to build knowledge of faith on the level of the mind as faith exists on a spiritual plane and that plane resides in the heart. So, if your heart corrects you, your faith will become revived. So, if I were you, I'd focus on correcting the heart that became an instrument of corruption (which fed off of the doubts you'd been having and led to agnosticism materializing as an organic path and natural outcome). Remember Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "There lies within the body a piece of flesh. If it is sound, the whole body is sound; and if it is corrupted, the whole body is corrupted. Verily this piece is the heart." The aphorism in the hadith (prophetic tradition) is stating a profound and primordial Spiritual Law governing us.

Take care.

Sincere Regards & Best Wishes,

I quickly scrolled down, stopped in the middle of this huge wall of text, and knew it must be you. lol

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

Firstly, thank you for your answers Mr.Simple_person. I may not get some of my points across because of the language barrier. But I will try my best. Indeed I'm trying to be open minded as possible (also eyes and heart) , not to be biased towards any specific ideology/belief system. You seem to assume me being atheist by discussing matters related to mostly atheism, but I don't consider myself an atheist.

I've seen your argument a lot from theists, I myself used the same argument against atheists, but there is a flaw. The universe has a beginning, therefore it must have an end, that I agree because I've seen some arguments about it (some atheists believe universe itself is eternal) , but what causes the universe in the first place? God, they say. Why does it has to be 'God'? The omniscient, all-powerful, law-making, judging, punishing , God? It seems like people are programmed to follow a certain type of thinking, making a certain conclusion and fitting everything into a 'box' that fits all their descriptions about what God/deity/superhuman-being should be when they can't explain something they can never comprehend. Of course without a doubt, something can't come out of nothing, but can theists explain how did God Allah came into existence? No, they say God has always existed. God is not part of the law of nature that he made. But can theists explain the nature of God Allah ( Zaat of Allah)? No, no human can ever comprehend the nature of God because our minds are limited when it comes to that. So just let the knowledge be with Allah alone.

This is exactly the same case with atheists/agnostics, we don't know for sure what was before universe. We can't explain it and that is okay not knowing something, just like when theists are asked about the nature of their God. What if mother nature is a god? What if there is a set of atemporal sequences that has always existed and gives rise to universe and life? What if there is a god that only governs the balance of nature but doesn't intervene in human actions, doesn't punish nor reward humans? What if there is a god but need not to be worshiped, but just to be admired? Why can't such a God exists before religion teaches us their version of God? I'm not saying I believe in my own version of God, but these are all possibilities.

I am very glad you brought this up, because there is that confirms what i am saying. It is not simply because i want to automatically put a Creator in the equation by mere feelings. You said indeed why has it be God that always has existed? Why not something else? If you ACCEPT that something has always existed, whatever that may be, we can finally go to the next step to find out what this something is.

Within this universe there is already A LOT of knowledge. Atheism if you ask me in this case has fallen from the answer to say we follow this, because their mind is limited to what can be understood and be seen. While you for example say a agnosticism ..it can be God but he does not intervene with this or He just does that...or it is not God but just something else with Creator like ability etc. etc. etc.. These simple conclusions are at least you could say honest conclusions. While in atheism you see that they want to deny the simple conclusion of a Creator because they do not "feel" a Creator might indeed exist. I do not go by feelings you know.

So in case of the huge amount of knowledge that exists, i talk about all the religions as well as science it self. We analyze each one by logic, rationality and reason backed by scientific facts if this exists.

When we steal something we feel bad about it. When we help somebody we feel good about it. This being one of the many characteristics of our human nature. To give you another simple example, that the simplest person among us might even understand. We human beings have carnal desires and wanting to procreate. If i tell you that one can have control over these carnal desires in the sense as balance it, you can ONLY say..indeed i agree. There are moments that we fulfill these carnal desires and there are moments that we can control them to not be controlled by them.

However there are religions that prohibits of having these carnal desires all together. Referring to Christianity and Buddhism as they practice celibacy. Practicing celibacy goes against the basic human nature. I am STILL speaking logic, rationality and reason. If this goes against our human nature it goes against logic, rationality and reason. Those religions MIGHT contain some truths, but they do not contain all the truth. Which leaves a lot of other religions to search and find if they might be the real truth. If you want me to address each and every one of those religions, just say it and i will tell you. Or you can analyze them yourself and come to a conclusion.

Anyways that is what in the end brought me to Islam in the first place. After that as i myself do not speak Arabic fluently or understand most of it, looked at discussions between Muslims and other people like Christians and Atheist for example. The questions they gave to the Muslims and looked at the answer the Muslims gave. Each and every answer i tested by logic, rationality and reason with scientific evidence if existed. I visited anti-Muslim websites and i read those things they claimed about Islam. Every time i was SHOCKED to see what Islam was "saying"..how horrible things Islam was "saying". But then i went back to what Muslims were saying about these things. I noticed they each time went to the Arabic language and not the translation. They first explained what the Arabic word or sentence exactly meant then they explained the rest about this.

In the end i saw by majority of the attempts that those anti-Islam websites were taking things out of concept by simple leaving out 1 vers that any ignorant person could read and could twist the whole story around as not being bad, rather being good. But these kind of things they attempted and if somebody tells you 1 lie, you will stop believing him even if he tells you the truth. They were not HONESTLY trying to show people Islam was false, rather they wanted show people Islam was false by even twisting things deliberately. I myself do not like dishonest people as these people hold grudges/hatred and not intellectual argument.

Which in the end Islam confirmed what was before the big bang and what was before the big bang confirmed Islam. As Qur'an was telling that something exists outside this universe that cannot be comprehended and this being confirmed Islam by simple existing in our only theory/philosophical explanation. So one confirms the other. The other thing off course one could say why has it to be Islam? Why not another religion or not a religion? That has to do with the CLAIM Muslims make of Qur'an is perfect and does not contain any errors. As human being itself is imperfect and bound to make errors. We human beings follow what makes the most sense. As long there is no real evidence that contradicts this, we follow it. This is not blind believe, but believe as the outcome of a own research or thinking.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

I have to agree with you on this, it kinda makes sense. I imagine being raped by multiple men and killed afterwards is the worst possible thing that could happen to a child, immediately I can't accept why God even let this happen. If the 'test' argument can't justify this then why not use the 'fate' argument? Maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand this concept in Islam. I presumed both the killers and victim are being tested. The killers, no problem, but the victim? Allah says he doesn't test anyone beyond their limit, but if this is the case, then I assume the limit is not even death itself, if the person dies then it becomes their fate? Correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a test and there is fate. When something is within your "control" and what i mean by this is i am having the choice to STEAL that new iphone or NOT to steal that new iphone. This is the test. When something is outside of your control, this is fate. For example the mother of person X dies in a car crash. Person X as well as the mother couldn't know the future. Knowing something is having the ability to control the outcome. NOT knowing something is out of your control. So the mother of that person X dying in a car crash is beyond the mothers control as well as beyond the control of person X. This is fate. So looking at the fate of that child, is exactly same argument. Did the parents knew the child would be abducted? Nope. Did the child know she would be abducted? Nope. Did the child had enough psychical force to fight against those people and kill them instead..nope. So if something is out of your control, it automatically becomes fate.

Another example. During war you have killed 5 people with your weapon. However person number 6 kills you. Within your ability and limit you could kill 5 people at the same time but when person 6 comes in the equation it becomes out of your ability. You do not have the mental ability to defend yourself against 6, but only 5 people at the same time. This becomes your fate. I have thought about this fate thing and i have found an example in the Qur'an.

"And similarly, We caused them to be found that they[who found them] would know that the promise of Allah is truth and that of the Hour there is no doubt. [That was] when they disputed among themselves about their affair and [then] said, "Construct over them a structure. Their Lord is most knowing about them." Said those who prevailed in the matter, "We will surely take [for ourselves] over them a masjid."" Qur'an 18:21

Read the bold part. If you read the complete story of the people of the cave in surah 18. These young men tried to stay hidden from society. But reading that bold part, saying "We caused them to be found" says, this was OUTSIDE of their control. They tried everything within their limits to stay hidden, STILL they were found. As again referring to "We caused them to be found". So the choice is being able to change something or choose something. When you have no control over it, it becomes fate. You get me?

Rape also is a human feeling. For example the other day i saw some mallard ducks "gang raping" a mallard hen. But this isn't true what i am saying. This is their nature they are doing what they are doing. The moment you forget that this life is a test, you do not agree with fate. In Islam we have 3 categories. Islam, Imaan and Ihsaan.

In one of the pillars of imaan is the fate part. Accepting the good and the bad about fate.

"Belief in the predestination by Allah of all things, both the (seemingly) good and the (seemingly) bad."

Source used: http://www.missionislam.com/knowledg...illarsiman.htm

What we see, seems sometimes a bad thing. But that might be a HUGE favor for that individual. In Islam the Day of Judgement is not something easy. I am not sure if you have seen some youtube videos talking about Day of Judgement. A day that your own mother would say i do not have any good deeds for you as i need them myself. The seriousness that people who were disbelievers biting on their hands wishing they had followed the right path. The person who was raped and killed in this world..on the Day of Judgement being so happy about their fate in this world as not having the sins on his/her name anymore. While the murders having them on their book. This perspective you seems to completely forget. Your whole argument surrounds around this world and what happens in this world. While this is 50% of the whole story. Somebody dying a peaceful death at old age and not having some years of agony in his/her bed is in Islam rather something to worry about. As harm and pain in Islam wipes out our sins. So it is all about your perspective.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

I cannot relate as I don't believe about shaytans whispering stuff on me. What I believe changed me for the better was the fasting as Ramadhan's the only time I ever fast (including Shawal as well). It has been scientifically proven beneficial to health, people all around the world practices fasting be they're muslims or not. It curbs my urges to let out my anger, it balances my hormones/blood sugar level/ etc etc so I believe that's what made me more focused on my ibadah.

The biggest problem with science of today is. Everything that can be seen with the eye, is only concluded as science. This is the biggest issue. Some people are possessed but science ONLY acknowledges mental health problems. Your curtain suddenly moves while you were sitting on the cough..all windows and doors being closed and nothing thrown in the direction of the window..still blaming the wind for it. hahahha. Saying that no other dimensions exist based on how far our CURRENT science is, is PURE arrogance. Just like how our hearing is limited, while animals can hear other frequencies too the possibility of other dimensions could also be true. This is having a open mind. Another example. If you have a friend. You go and hang out with her maybe 6 times a week. After sometimes you guys like the same things..think the same..do the same. However if you have not visited her for like 6 months you two are completely out of SYNC. Yes, you read it correct. Out of sync. Your waves patterns have become different in those 6 months. Till this day i have not found scientific research explaining this, but you can agree with me that this really does exist. Islam for example also acknowledges this. In the past i have had this with some friends of mine. We are in a car and a see a red car. Some kilometers down the road or even 10 minutes later i started thinking about that red car..when i wanted to say something about it..he starts talking about that car that i wanted to say something about it. This happened multiple times not just once. These things science cannot explain. We know of brainwaves, but there is brainwaves and there is feeling something. A lot science is lacking.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

I totally understand where you're coming from.. you and I are not so much different. I can say for sure that I was and am being very very truthfully honest with myself when I began questioning Islam and researching things. When I was a muslim there was a state where I'm 100% confident islam as the truth, I told myself changing my religion is impossible as everything about Allah makes sense. I pondered a lot BUT.. I only knew the 'good' part of Islam, the front side of the coin, but the other side? I turned a blind eye. Even my friends did. I found out that Islam justifies terrorism, slavery, etc, you know, the controversial stuff. Not that I didn't know it at first, but it has always been the part of Islam that I was scared to learn more about, we didn't discuss that in school.

What you mentioned above is likely when you view atheism as a belief system..in fact, it is not. Not all atheists believe in the same thing. They make assumptions, sometimes they believe they're right, sometimes they know they're wrong. I look at their views as merely possibilities of what could happen. The vast different opinions/interpretations itself is proof to me that Islam, or any religion, likely not be true. There are christians/hindus/jew/etc who believe to great extent and so devoted like muslims do in their religion and incapable of understanding from different perspectives. Suppose muslims are to interpret a matter a specific way, the nonmuslims deviated too far from the line, but still reach a reasonable and legit conclusion, but are going to hell for that, and I asked myself, do I want to believe in that religion? Not everyone can understand a particular ideology, but some can, that's why we see people converting to Islam because they are capable to understand the islamic point of view, but other people are just incapable and sometimes it really is impossible to understand when you're not in that position, every human brain is not the same. When I sit in a room full of non muslims, I wondered, why are they going to hell just because they don't interpret things the way I do?

However, I must say that, Islam is not particularly bad. I've seen the best of humanity in Islam, in my community usually the muslims are the best behaved. I learnt life lessons mostly from this religion. I still love some parts of Islam, I have no issue with pork, alcohol, hijab, relationships, lottery and stuff. But the flaws that I assume it is , just doesn't make it up.

I will be addressing the issue about Aisha some time later. Thank you for your advice, hope to see your reply soon.

Again, i am a PURE realist. Often i hear for example from a guy i know for a long time. He says i am a very negative person. Negativity is something else than realism. I see things how they are, not because they are bad or so. To give you an example.

If there is a problem, there is a solution.

A solution however is not just 1 solution. A solution can be multiple things. A solution can be something like "ideal solution" but it also can be "best solution". This world is a messed up place you know this i know this. We do not have to say that it is not. Ideal solutions are often portrayed as a utopia. However a utopia is based on something very unrealistic. As within a utopia it seems as if many factors are not included anymore. Humans are sometimes violent. Humans rape other humans sometimes. Humans kill other humans sometimes. So these ideal solutions are mere "dreams" in this life. As our human nature prohibits us to practice this utopia solution.

A best solution is something that can be achieved. A best solution has kept the human nature in check. Within Islam you see things and you do not get it. That is one of the BIGGEST tests for an individual. Will you judge what you see as something bad and keep it like that? Or will you judge it as something bad, but are willing to learn about it why it is why it is? I myself am ALWAYS open to listen to why something is what it is. Each time i have gotten a logical and rational explanation why it is how it is. To give you an example. In Islam a man can have multiple wives. Why is this? Just recently i saw a documentary about US men going to Ukraine searching for a wife. I am not making this up. In that documentary one of the people in charge of the agency SERIOUSLY said there are more women living in Ukraine then men. Again, i am seriously not making this up. I again when i heard it..replayed that part to hear if i heard it right. So the women there (some off course and some were chasing money) were searching for a man outside Ukraine as they wanted to marry. The ideal solution would be 1 man 1 woman. But that is simply a utopia, not realistic. So better to have multiple women marrying 1 man so they also can experience having children and a life.

In Islam slavery was a fact. But if you really investigate Islam and slavery you see some very odd things. Like if you have done something bad...free a slave or 2. That is contradictory to somebody saying Islam promotes slavery. So it takes time to abolish something. Just like drug addicts it takes time to get it out of the system.

I have been trying to get rid of many bad habits of mine and i have been at it for the last 4 years. I FINALLY ..in a very slow pace have reached a level that i don't watch movies that often anymore. As i myself have the opinion that they wast valuable time. Instead i want to read books more often that contain valuable knowledge. So this has taken me 4 years to achieve this level. It is absolutely not easy to get rid of certain habits. But slowly and also the people who do want to watch movies in general..take a distance from them. Do i regret it so far? Absolutely NOT. I feel my mind is functioning better. I am more alert, i ask even more questions and observe more things. Also i ponder more about stuff.

The only things that i still do watch are nature documentaries and documentaries in general.

So if you look at the "bad" side of Islam, first sit down and search what for wisdom is behind it. For example reading this.

"Prohibited to you are dead animals, blood, the flesh of swine, and that which has been dedicated to other than Allah , and [those animals] killed by strangling or by a violent blow or by a head-long fall or by the goring of horns, and those from which a wild animal has eaten, except what you [are able to] slaughter [before its death], and those which are sacrificed on stone altars, and [prohibited is] that you seek decision through divining arrows. That is grave disobedience. This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." Qur'an 5:3

Read the bold part. When we analyze and ponder about the word favor. It is something that one benefits from. It would be strange don't you think to see something bad and be called "favor". So the question we need to ask ourselves is, what is behind it that can be called favor? This i have OFTEN done and i have always seen this favor in the end or even part of the favor. Just recently a sister on this forum (may Allah reward her GREATLY) pointed at something, that made me realize why women are how they are. They by general meaning are everything except logical. While men are by general meaning everything except emotional. This however completes the other if you think about it marriage being completion of the deen. Also why women are by general meaning less logical, is rather a HUGE favor. If they were logical they would have already divorced us losers (men). Sorry to say this but i see that we men on many fronts lack the ability to do something or incapable to do something. A logical woman would have had multiple men to get every thing she desires from each men. Money from one, love from the other, carnal desires from the other, genes for children from the other etc. etc. etc. This you do see in nature for example. The female searches for the strongest male and mates with it. After that she goes to another male then another male.

You seeing non-Muslims, who says they will go to hell? That is YOUR saying not that of Allah. Since i became Muslim by choice i have had discussions with many people of other faiths including atheism, but also Muslims themselves. There are two character traits i have seen either one of these two in EACH ONE OF THEM. What are these? Honesty and dishonesty. If you are right a HONEST person will admit they are wrong. Dishonest people will not. This within Muslims even exist. We call these people munafiq. Hypocrites. They will lie to have it their way. I have had discussions with people of other faiths and i have seen dishonest people but also honest people. So when i see a room full of people who are not Muslims, i know among them are honest and dishonest people. The honest people Allah(swt) will lead in'sha'Allah. The dishonest people not.

Within the many discussions i have found two types of people who were not Muslims yet.

- Type 1(dishonest): They search for the truth, when they find it they do not follow it. Maybe out of arrogance or pride i am not sure, but they do not follow that path. These are the TRUE kaffir, as they know the truth with all their heart but they do not follow it.
- Type 2 (honest): They do NOT search for the truth, but when the truth is put on their path..they follow it.

So again you seeing a room full of people who are no Muslim and assuming they go to hell, this says something about you and your mentality not them and how Allah(swt) sees them. Think about it.

So the choice is yours to do what you want to do. However your arguments till now (no offense) are rather shallow from a logical, rational and reasonable point of view. Also the philosophical thoughts are kind of lacking. Again no offense, but what i say in this sentence should be sort of a reality check for yourself if what i am saying is true or not and why it is true or not. The right approach in this is, looking for why you are wrong, not looking why you might be right. To brand yourself to be right you can find 1000 excuses you are right. But find the reason why you might be wrong, that is more beneficial as you might learn more from it.

Peace and take care.

format_quote Originally Posted by Kazu

I didn't say you think of me as mentally disturbed, but rather I've read some comments in the forum from muslims that we're fundamentally wrong in the head. I'm sorry but you can't judge me that I've 'never' took the time to study and understand Islam. I never want to take 'what I want to be the truth' as the truth, rather, I'm an observer, I look for hints in all things because religion will portray itself in everything, not just in the book. This is why I'm agnostic, not an atheist like you were.

In the Qur'an Allah says truth is clear from falsehood. This simple sentence is amazing. You know why? Because there is a lot of wisdom behind it.

To me it not only says that one should not look at "little details" but just look and you will see. Just like if you look and you see a tree you see a tree ..you do not have to look for details to see a tree. This also is sort of a confirmation that separates people who believe and people who who disbelieve. What I mean by this is in another part Allah says this is for people who reason. I mean sure you have read those ayaat also. What does "people who reason mean?"..atheist say it is just a mixed up something that in the end has became what it has became. However using your mind you say only the mentally ill people come to such a conclusion that it all has come from "chance". Well i should better say, their hearts are ill, as this is even confirmed in the Qur'an. The mind agrees that things cannot become like this by mere chance, the heart however doesn't need logic, rationality or reason. Just follow YOUR truth.

I have had a friend who was also agnostic you know what agnostic have in common with atheists?..not seeing the tree anymore but looking for details to WANT to see something else. You said earlier why believers always have to put a Creator in the equation..to see such balance in the universe to even atom level..how possible can this come out of chance besides SOMETHING having made all of this. Even looking for details for people who reason they can come to the same conclusions. Scientists are baffled by the behavior of cells.

So all I see atheists and agnostics look for THEIR truth not the truth of what reality gives them.

You sister with your mouth and thought says you have already thought about Islam to know and understand Islam. Sister these days we human beings have become retarded and I am NOT kidding you. I am going to be 31 years old soon. Since early 20's at work back then I did not want to mix with guys my age during break. I went and sat next to people who were twice my age. The people my age all what they were talking about was girls, football, money...but ESPECIALLY football. Nowadays people say this is "normal" behavior..no sister this is NOT normal behavior. Now at the age of 30..all people are busy with is work, family and what comes with it. Many people when they start a family become suddenly too serious but still very ignorant and shallow in their thoughts.

I do not feel special at all. I like certain things and others like other things. However people pondering happened in the past way more often than now. Why? Because people are TOO preoccupied by TV and listening to music. I dare you to stop watching TV and listening music for at least 6 months. Your WHOLE mentality will change. Close your Facebook and all those "social" media accounts or not visit them anymore. Like the body need healthy food, the mind also need healthy things to absorb. Will you able? Do not prove it to me that you are able but instead go and ponder about why I say these things.

BTW, I became a atheist because I never stood still with reality and search for Islamic knowledge. All I got was atheism propaganda and SUPER SUPER SHALLOW CULTURE Islam. I am seriously DISGUSTED when I think if culture Islam. Sadly I cannot put the exact emotions here about what I feel about culture Islam but they are NOT positieve even in the slightest sense. Nationalism being the cause of this culture Islam. But sheep Muslims being TOO PROUD to stop and ponder about this fact. But yet again sub'han'Allah being born a Muslim doesn't garuantee someone that he or she will also die as a Muslim. This age is a HUGE favor also from Allah that we have internet. Much knowledge I have gotten from the Internet.

Peace.

You know what I find still very childish of this Kazu member?

He is worried about the suffering of humanity in the world, and blaming Allah for it - while not seeking to understand the reasons behind contrasted truth such as good intention and bad intention.

The irony on a very philosophical level is that Kazu has actually unjustly accused God of being evil - when he should have correctly identifed that God created the contrast of Evil by which one can measure the Good.

He also neglects to reason within himself that human suffering is temporary in this life and that those who suffer unjustly in this life are recompensed for it in the next. By the same token he also forgets the scope of Allahs creation, and that Allah created Heaven and also Hell, which is Eternal Punishment, and so - if Kazu - is thinking this world is evil because God is evil, and thus decides to disbelieve in God while knowing that God exists - then in effect - he's not just stupid, but absolutely insane.

Isn't that right Kazu?

Unless you think God does tours of hell fire for the dead only, lol

Scimi

EDIT: Kazu, in case this post goes over your head - you still believe, because you haven't convinced yourself that "there is no God".

So why make an enemy out of HIM?

Scimi

With respect, we all have a way to get through, do not interfere in mine and I will leave you to yours

Scimi

you can't see the harm nor the good, you can only feel it

And you recognise your own shortcomings - this is why you feel it.

Scimi