breaking heart

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Originally Posted by xboxisdead

Nope. Sorry, sister. But he started wrong and he got the seep of his action by him actually doing fitnah and talking to strange women online. If we actually implemented the true Islamic law in action, my harsh words would be his least worries. In fact...if we where to implement the Islamic 100% to the dot, the backbiting will be crime and people will be either executed or go to prison for just backbiting. Remember, backbiting is worse than eating the flesh of your brother. Being sympathetic all the time is not way of solving problems period. I am sympathetic if he comes from an abusive family or his family died or he wrongfully imprisoned and tortured...or he sacrificed his entire life for his family and they all stabbed him...yes.

But for him to go online (dating website might as well) and chatting with non-mahrim women...there and then any sympathy I have have left the window. Then he missed all the red signs and in addition he thinks he knows how to play the relationship game!! :facepalm::facepalm: Nope. Sorry. He should do istigfar, repent and learn from his lesson and never do this again.

By the way, when you asked all these maybe questions aren't they all ever reasons to indicate what I said is true? He is not mature emotionally. He is not mature for relationship. He was never taught how to actually find the right partner and what is his role as men and what to expect. It is ever more reason why he should not have went to dating online from the first place! He should have done it the proper Islamic way to begin with. And all you maybe questions you asked there? Ever more reason why boys are in crisis and need to be raised by their fathers at certain age and not their mothers. Age seven the father should have 100% custody of his sons (as long as he is a good man, saleh and can bring benefit to the child) instead of visiting the child ones a year to say hi and then bye. Otherwise I will laugh when I hear women complain where are the good men. I will not feel sorry for them, but clap my hands and laugh my butt out.

Brother...stop going to dating site. Stop chatting with women online. Stop having dating relationship. My suggestion is take a break from relationship for one full year. Yes...one full year. Clear your mind, clear your heart. Who knows perhaps you will be thinking of improving yourself even more financially, educational wise or even run your own business? Focus on yourself for now. Improve yourself. Focus on saving your money and investing and making sure you are secure in old age. Go out there and do things for cause of Allah (Subhanahu Wa Talaa) by helping poor family in Middle East, sponsor a child, help abused animals, build for yourself. When you are ready for relationship after a year, do it right this time. Bring your family and have them to help you. Bring sheikh, or people in the mosque to help you. DO it halala way and learn the difference between hayawa,saleh women in how they act vs how majority act. But before you do find the saleh woman...make sure you are saleh too and fix yourself and your heart.

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He started wrong by wanting to find a girl to marry? So he is not allowed to look for one? Not allowed to investigate her? (sure, the methods he used were wrong, but thats because he probably didnt know any better, not because he abandoned his religion). Even you saw the new post about that guy who married the unfaithful woman and had a child with her. Look at how miserable his life is now, just because he did not good correct investigation about her even though it was islamic. And now you seem to suggest that it is not allowed to get to know a sister though online chatting?

Problem with the second part is that your saying " "IF" we were to implement the islamic 100% to the dot" ... problem is we are not, yet you still want him to follow islam 100% without us being able to do it in the first place. This is one form of hypocrisy. The boy is seeing the fitna we let onto our children left and right with nothing to counter it except speeches now and then from parents talking about islamic things. Rarely through action or leading by example, so why do we expect the youth to be any better when the sources their their learning from are flawed?

You expect him to not do a mistake in his action, in his research, in his emotions, and his thinking process? How and based on what when everything around him is flawed? By realizing the mistakes of his forefathers and whatnot? He doesnt even have the understanding of how these things are flaws, heck ... people who are new to things don't even realize where things could go wrong let alone what type of wrong they might face. There are so many things that you assume incorrectly and judge him based on that. You assume that he should have the same knowledge that you have and that he has the same fears and precaution mentality that you do. He hasnt gained the experience yet and to be honest is much better to learn from mistakes than from a person speaking without full understanding. (so long as that mistake doesnt lead to extreme pain). But in your case you seem to have been hurt sooo much saw that you wouldnt even trust the most pious girl alive today and this is no way to live brother. Islam did indeed ask us to make sure of our safety first, but it also calls for moderation so do take precautions but not to the extent to what your calling for.

You say being sympathetic all the time isnt good and i agree. but when its there isnt of blaming the victim when they did hardly anything out of the ordinary then your creating a monster not teaching someone. Your pushing your hate and harsh filtered view of the world on to him from a young age and he will grow up thinking there is no such things a true love or happy family in this flawed world. He doesnt need that right now. he doesnt deserve it. He is still new to things and still learning.

You assume that he has been doing relationships for years now when maybe its his first. You assume that he should think like a grown adult when he's probably just reached young adulthood ... far from his 30s. There is much indeed of what needs to be learned. But not in this negative light you portray it to be in. Main point is, i personally believe he didnt do anything out of the ordinary. He experienced his first heartbreak and we should help him back up instead of keeping him down and showing him how awful it is down there by continuously blaming him and punishing him for falling.You expect him to not do a mistake in his action, in his research, in his emotions, and his thinking process? How and based on what when everything around him is flawed? By realizing the mistakes of his forefathers and whatnot? He doesnt even have the understanding of how these things are flaws, heck ... people who are new to things don't even realize where things could go wrong let alone what type of wrong they might face. There are so many things that you assume incorrectly and judge him based on that. You assume that he should have the same knowledge that you have and that he has the same fears and precaution mentality that you do. He hasnt gained the experience yet and to be honest is much better to learn from mistakes than from a person speaking without full understanding. (so long as that mistake doesnt lead to extreme pain). But in your case you seem to have been hurt so much saw that you wouldnt even trust the most pious girl alive today and this is no way to live brother. Islam did indeed ask us to make sure of our safety first, but it also calls for moderation so do take precautions but not to the extent to what your calling for.

You say being sympathetic all the time isnt good and i agree. but when its there isnt of blaming the victim when they did hardly anything out of the ordinary then your creating a monster not teaching someone. Your pushing your hate and harsh filtered view of the world on to him from a young age and he will grow up thinking there is no such things a true love or happy family in this flawed world. He doesnt need that right now. he doesnt deserve it. He is still new to things and still learning.

You assume that he has been doing relationships for years now when maybe its his first. You assume that he should think like a grown adult when he's probably just reached young adulthood ... far from his 30s. There is much indeed of what needs to be learned. But not in this negative light you portray it to be in. Main point is, i personally believe he didnt do anything out of the ordinary. He experienced his first heartbreak and we should help him back up instead of keeping him down and showing him how awful it is down there by continuously blaming him and punishing him for falling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

He started wrong by wanting to find a girl to marry?

No. He started wrong by talking to strange girls online period! His approach in finding a mate was wrong, period.

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Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

So he is not allowed to look for one?

I never said that. However, the approach he went is wrong period.

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Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Not allowed to investigate her? (sure, the methods he used were wrong, but thats because he probably didnt know any better, not because he abandoned his religion).

Thank you 100% for that sentence alone proofing my case. His approach is wrong because he talks to non-mahreem girl online period. THAT IS WRONG. The mere fact he doesn't know better (coming from your own words) indicate he is not mature or not ready to go this route. He should know himself he does not have knowledge and should seek elders to help him do it the right way, not the Western style way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Even you saw the new post about that guy who married the unfaithful woman and had a child with her. Look at how miserable his life is now, just because he did not good correct investigation about her even though it was islamic. And now you seem to suggest that it is not allowed to get to know a sister though online chatting?

Dude! He is EXACTLY in that boat of what you just mentioned above. The OP did SOME FINALLY investigation and with all the red signs he ignored them. In addition to that, his family did not help me either. His family should have seen these red signs and stopped him or pointed out that he is wrong to continue this. If he still ignored that and continued this, then 100% blame goes to him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Problem with the second part is that your saying " "IF" we were to implement the islamic 100% to the dot" ... problem is we are not,

Aaaand...that is why we are here, now isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

yet you still want him to follow islam 100% without us being able to do it in the first place. This is one form of hypocrisy. The boy is seeing the fitna we let onto our children left and right with nothing to counter it except speeches now and then from parents talking about islamic things. Rarely through action or leading by example, so why do we expect the youth to be any better when the sources their their learning from are flawed?

Why do you think I said boys are in crisis? We are so focused in empowering girls we left boys behind the boat. This is why I said we need to have masculine reset. We need to invest in looking for the few actual family that have being working, where there is no babies yet and say hey...let us focus on the mother and father. Let us get the father to follow 100% the footstep of the prophet (peace be upon him) before having children in every way. The way the prophet wears, that soon to be father acts, the way the prophet dress, the soon to be father dresses, the way the prophet deals with his womenfolk, the soon to be father deals with his womenfolk and so on. When he have a son...he put those knowledge to his son or sons and the son/sons will look at his father by not word..but by action. We have new saleh men..in hopes these saleh men will change society to the better. These saleh men will treat their womenfolk the same as the prophet would treat his womenfolk. This will bring so many factors. A) It will show the non-Muslims that Islam is a religion of justice and not what the non-Muslim believe oppression of women (which is false). This may bring more non-Muslim to Islam. B) Bring harmony in the community, less crime drop out, less rape, violence, suicide, more happiness for both men and women and so on. C) In hopes men actually pick the right mother for the new generation and both men and women know their boundaries and limitations and work in harmony and there will be less....that. It is that make me run away from marriage like a frightened mouse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

You expect him to not do a mistake in his action, in his research, in his emotions, and his thinking process?

Yes. I expect him to take this more serious as heart attack. I actually expect him to be an FBI when it comes to finding a spouse. Before actually going out to searching for a spouse...look at the horror stories of other men and see if they match with his (at the beginning). I actually expect him to be a police finding the criminal by doing investigation and gluing the case together to point out the criminal. Yes. When it comes to relationship now...yes a trillion times. In fact...resume will be a nice way of finding your suited partner. Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

How and based on what when everything around him is flawed? By realizing the mistakes of his forefathers and whatnot? He doesnt even have the understanding of how these things are flaws, heck ... people who are new to things don't even realize where things could go wrong let alone what type of wrong they might face.

Eeeeelddeeers! :facepalm::facepalm: Research! Elders! Investigating! Learn to see the signs. Stop looking through the sheep's eye and look the eagle eye, please!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

There are so many things that you assume incorrectly and judge him based on that. You assume that he should have the same knowledge that you have and that he has the same fears and precaution mentality that you do. He hasnt gained the experience yet and to be honest is much better to learn from mistakes than from a person speaking without full understanding. (so long as that mistake doesnt lead to extreme pain). But in your case you seem to have been hurt sooo much saw that you wouldnt even trust the most pious girl alive today and this is no way to live brother. Islam did indeed ask us to make sure of our safety first, but it also calls for moderation so do take precautions but not to the extent to what your calling for.

I can smell the pious girl from the non pious girl a mile away. In some cases I met one pious woman from my mom's friend..can I say my heart have changed and melted and made me want to be better myself to find a pious woman like her. But then as soon as I left the house and saw the woman walking around the street and interact and hear from friends, I am amazed to find one where I live (and my heart reset back to not wanting to get married and live alone and enjoy my toys). It is amazing how much power women have over men when she acts like a real pious Islamic woman, and I assure you...if I do find one....I will not be that cynical as you say I am. I would climb the mountain and come back for her and will treat her like the queen she that deserves to be treated. But ....finding one is harder by the minute.

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May Allah (S.W.T) grant you patience :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by xboxisdead

No. He started wrong by talking to strange girls online period! His approach in finding a mate was wrong, period.

I never said that. However, the approach he went is wrong period.

Thank you 100% for that sentence alone proofing my case. His approach is wrong because he talks to non-mahreem girl online period. THAT IS WRONG. The mere fact he doesn't know better (coming from your own words) indicate he is not mature or not ready to go this route. He should know himself he does not have knowledge and should seek elders to help him do it the right way, not the Western style way.

Dude! He is EXACTLY in that boat of what you just mentioned above. The OP did SOME FINALLY investigation and with all the red signs he ignored them. In addition to that, his family did not help me either. His family should have seen these red signs and stopped him or pointed out that he is wrong to continue this. If he still ignored that and continued this, then 100% blame goes to him.

Aaaand...that is why we are here, now isn't it?

Why do you think I said boys are in crisis? We are so focused in empowering girls we left boys behind the boat. This is why I said we need to have masculine reset. We need to invest in looking for the few actual family that have being working, where there is no babies yet and say hey...let us focus on the mother and father. Let us get the father to follow 100% the footstep of the prophet (peace be upon him) before having children in every way. The way the prophet wears, that soon to be father acts, the way the prophet dress, the soon to be father dresses, the way the prophet deals with his womenfolk, the soon to be father deals with his womenfolk and so on. When he have a son...he put those knowledge to his son or sons and the son/sons will look at his father by not word..but by action. We have new saleh men..in hopes these saleh men will change society to the better. These saleh men will treat their womenfolk the same as the prophet would treat his womenfolk. This will bring so many factors. A) It will show the non-Muslims that Islam is a religion of justice and not what the non-Muslim believe oppression of women (which is false). This may bring more non-Muslim to Islam. B) Bring harmony in the community, less crime drop out, less rape, violence, suicide, more happiness for both men and women and so on. C) In hopes men actually pick the right mother for the new generation and both men and women know their boundaries and limitations and work in harmony and there will be less....that. It is that make me run away from marriage like a frightened mouse.

Yes. I expect him to take this more serious as heart attack. I actually expect him to be an FBI when it comes to finding a spouse. Before actually going out to searching for a spouse...look at the horror stories of other men and see if they match with his (at the beginning). I actually expect him to be a police finding the criminal by doing investigation and gluing the case together to point out the criminal. Yes. When it comes to relationship now...yes a trillion times. In fact...resume will be a nice way of finding your suited partner. Yes.

Eeeeelddeeers! :facepalm::facepalm: Research! Elders! Investigating! Learn to see the signs. Stop looking through the sheep's eye and look the eagle eye, please!

I can smell the pious girl from the non pious girl a mile away. In some cases I met one pious woman from my mom's friend..can I say my heart have changed and melted and made me want to be better myself to find a pious woman like her. But then as soon as I left the house and saw the woman walking around the street and interact and hear from friends, I am amazed to find one where I live (and my heart reset back to not wanting to get married and live alone and enjoy my toys). It is amazing how much power women have over men when she acts like a real pious Islamic woman, and I assure you...if I do find one....I will not be that cynical as you say I am. I would climb the mountain and come back for her and will treat her like the queen she that deserves to be treated. But ....finding one is harder by the minute.

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Talking to strange/non mahram girls is not haram in islam so long as it doesnt involve any seductive or flirtatious expressions. Basically there shouldnt be any thing that tempts either of them into the haram. And if what the OP said is true and his intent was pure love then its a given that there wasnt any temptation. I repeat again: talking to the opposite gender in islam is not haram!
Skipped
Again, talking to non-mahram girls online is not haram, so long as there isnt any temptation involved. The reason why i said the methods he used was wrong is because he got his parents involved AFTER (not before) he got himself emotionally attached to her, and thats where he went wrong. not the fact that they talk in the first place. ... And as for not being mature enough, a Person has to start somewhere. Imagine not allowing a boy to talk to a female other than those in his family circle then suddenly when his financially and physically ready to support a family, we go and ask him to know everything about how to hold a conversation with a girl, how to have an emotional connection, how to understand them. Its crazy to think that they can do that. Complete segregation is not the solution brother and it was never a part of islam. PERIOD!
Is he? The other guy did exactly what you recommended yet he still got stuck with a bad partner. He consulted his elders, they didnt give him good advice and even if they did it wasnt enough to change his mind. He didnt talk to her a lot to know what kind of person she truly is, and your suggesting its haram to use one of the best methods of investigating someone which is communicating with them directly or even online. Its almost like your asking him to build a monument with his hands tied behind his back and blindfolded.
Its not just his duty to follow islam bro. Its the elders and the entire society as well that should provide an environment were the boy can practice islam effectively. That is if you expect him never to do a mistake in his life. So that if he does you can know that its 100% his fault. But this world is not perfect hence you should expect him to do a mistake here and there once every now and then. We are not robots you know? Its just that i feel like your taking out the human factor completely. You expect him to be like a machine. do everything by the book when thats not the case. We are driven by emotions and we will do mistakes because of them. So to put the blame 100% on him is just ignorance.
Its not just his duty to follow islam 100%, its our duty to provide him with an environment were he can actually be 100% islamic. Go ahead and try to avoid riba 100% of your entire life in this day and age ... you can't. Try to avoid partial or even full nudity nowadays ... you cant. Try to not fall for a girl when your hormones are raging and everyone around you is in an illegitimate relationship ... you cant. i can keep going on and on ...
So why are you putting the blame 100% on him when its also the environment and the people around him that usually play a massive role in cases like these?
Again, your not considering the human factor and his limited mental capacity to think broadly like u expect him. Young people dont understand that there is a need to think about the safety factor ... so why would they even do research in the first place. They are unaware of the dangers to do research let alone be an FBI in their research! Get it? Its like ... if a person has no idea about what a fire is, ofc its expected of him to try to touch it not knowing the dangers of doing that. That doesnt mean he is 100% wrong!
Again, whats the point of elders if they themselves are fallible? if they themselves are not effective? If they dont have the guts or time to spend talking to their children about these feelings we have when we grow up? If they dont have the connection with their children to talk to them freely and openly and have that trust bond when relaying important information about relationships and emotions? Is it still the guy's fault 100%?
Your right in saying the its getting harder to find a pious woman by the minute. But here is a suggestion. Why dont we try to make them pious instead of pushing them out? Try to pull them to the circle of huda and takwaa instead of despising them and cursing them? Its almost impossible to find a girl that is 100% pious in this day and age, so might as well make them pious then. The reward for bringing someone close to the path and Huda of Allah is as if you have safe all of man kind.

Think about it like this. If a girl dresses immodestly and goes out in the streets and then gets raped. Is it fair for us to say that it was 100% her fault? of course not! Most of the blame falls on the rapist as his mind is so twisted to even allow himself to cause such harm to someone, even if that they are doing is wrong. Thats not to say that the girl is 100% innocent. She played a big role in this and a lot of the blame falls on her. but for the most part its the rapist who is in the wrong here. Not the girl. Even if the girl is 100% wrong. That does not give the rapist permission to rape her! PERIOD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

[LIST=1][*]Talking to strange/non mahram girls is not haram in islam so long as it doesnt involve any seductive or flirtatious expressions. Basically there shouldnt be any thing that tempts either of them into the haram. And if what the OP said is true and his intent was pure love then its a given that there wasnt any temptation. I repeat again: talking to the opposite gender in islam is not haram![*]Skipped

I thought this applied to public area such as you are customer talking to the female owner of the store to buy products or walking in the street and a woman stopped you to asking for direction or you are a student and she is a teacher and so on. I did not know it was OK for a strange man to talk to non-mahrim woman in dating site. In fact, when I am talking in the street I thought i was not allowed to talk to non-mahrim woman for no important reason I have even do not say as salaam aliakum to sisters who are walking with hijab but only say salaam to brothers when I know he is Muslim. I would say salaam alaikum to sister myself when she is with her mahram man. I guess there is more for me to learn. :omg:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

[LIST=1][*]Again, talking to non-mahram girls online is not haram, so long as there isnt any temptation involved.

Aren't you opening a door for a shiataan to be the third between them? If you talk to non-mahrim girl online for other reason beside business, work or job interview or medical doctor...what is your real intention there if not be tempted to do haram thing? Maybe I am extremist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

[LIST=1]
The reason why i said the methods he used was wrong is because he got his parents involved AFTER (not before) he got himself emotionally attached to her, and thats where he went wrong.

I agree 100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

[LIST=1]
not the fact that they talk in the first place. ...

I am learning :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

[LIST=1]
And as for not being mature enough, a Person has to start somewhere. Imagine not allowing a boy to talk to a female other than those in his family circle then suddenly when his financially and physically ready to support a family, we go and ask him to know everything about how to hold a conversation with a girl, how to have an emotional connection, how to understand them. Its crazy to think that they can do that. Complete segregation is not the solution brother and it was never a part of islam. PERIOD!

I never said complete segregation..how to answer your question over there...isn't that where dad's value come to full important and tuition? Shouldn't the son get his wisdom about relationship and women from his father? As the father ages and he gets white hair..wouldn't the father see the new generation of women act and give his son even more advice to women who he should avoid and not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChosenTCO

Is he? The other guy did exactly what you recommended yet he still got stuck with a bad partner. He consulted his elders, they didnt give him good advice and even if they did it wasnt enough to change his mind. He didnt talk to her a lot to know what kind of person she truly is, and your suggesting its haram to use one of the best methods of investigating someone which is communicating with them directly or even online. Its almost like your asking him to build a monument with his hands tied behind his back and blindfolded.
Its not just his duty to follow islam bro. Its the elders and the entire society as well that should provide an environment were the boy can practice islam effectively. That is if you expect him never to do a mistake in his life. So that if he does you can know that its 100% his fault. But this world is not perfect hence you should expect him to do a mistake here and there once every now and then. We are not robots you know? Its just that i feel like your taking out the human factor completely. You expect him to be like a machine. do everything by the book when thats not the case. We are driven by emotions and we will do mistakes because of them. So to put the blame 100% on him is just ignorance.
Its not just his duty to follow islam 100%, its our duty to provide him with an environment were he can actually be 100% islamic. Go ahead and try to avoid riba 100% of your entire life in this day and age ... you can't. Try to avoid partial or even full nudity nowadays ... you cant. Try to not fall for a girl when your hormones are raging and everyone around you is in an illegitimate relationship ... you cant. i can keep going on and on ...
So why are you putting the blame 100% on him when its also the environment and the people around him that usually play a massive role in cases like these?
Again, your not considering the human factor and his limited mental capacity to think broadly like u expect him. Young people dont understand that there is a need to think about the safety factor ... so why would they even do research in the first place. They are unaware of the dangers to do research let alone be an FBI in their research! Get it? Its like ... if a person has no idea about what a fire is, ofc its expected of him to try to touch it not knowing the dangers of doing that. That doesnt mean he is 100% wrong!
Again, whats the point of elders if they themselves are fallible? if they themselves are not effective? If they dont have the guts or time to spend talking to their children about these feelings we have when we grow up? If they dont have the connection with their children to talk to them freely and openly and have that trust bond when relaying important information about relationships and emotions? Is it still the guy's fault 100%?
Your right in saying the its getting harder to find a pious woman by the minute. But here is a suggestion. Why dont we try to make them pious instead of pushing them out? Try to pull them to the circle of huda and takwaa instead of despising them and cursing them? Its almost impossible to find a girl that is 100% pious in this day and age, so might as well make them pious then. The reward for bringing someone close to the path and Huda of Allah is as if you have safe all of man kind.

Assalam walaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu, brother. I encountered a bunch of liars and players online. Make dua to Allah for a loving, sincere wife. Insha Allah, you will get it. Try masjid lists and Islamic Conventions with matrimonial services. Those people are more serious than most people online. That woman sounds like a manipulative sociopath. You should thank and praise Allah that she left you. You should take a shower with the intention of purifying yourself of your sin. Then perform 2 rakat Salatut Taubah and beg Allah for forgiveness. Insha Allah, He Will Forgive you. Avoid something similar in the future. If somebody really wants to get married, he or she doesn't keep the other person waiting many months or years. I hope you learned your lesson.

PS ... You should stop cursing those who do bad to you so that they dont take from your good deeds on the day of judgement.

How does cursing one cause you to lose good deeds? They wronged you. It's a hadith that you curse who wronged you?