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    SintoDinto's Avatar
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    How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

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    Qadariyya and Jabariyya. Qadariyya is the view that all human beings possess total free will, and are thus responsible for their afterlife and independent of Allah's qadr, and jabariyya is the opposite, saying Allah does everything

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    @SintoDinto

    Some people seem to have developed a large vocabulary after Muhammad for which Allah has provided no sanction.



    Aaaanyways.....since you subscribe to such terms......which are you?
    How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?













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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by SintoDinto View Post
    Qadariyya and Jabariyya. Qadariyya is the view that all human beings possess total free will, and are thus responsible for their afterlife and independent of Allah's qadr, and jabariyya is the opposite, saying Allah does everything
    Allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.

    I would think that a persons opinion on a matter is only as solid as his explanation of it..

    A person who is always mindful of his actions has a certain character and behaviour.. it is inself dictated by his opinion on the matter..

    When he is un-mindful of what he is saying or doing and yet aware of the fact, then he is experiencing..

    Which further reinforces his belief.


    If he finds value in things that are a protection against careless mistakes or bring calm to his mind or heart...

    What would those things be?


    If they are the same things as one who believes Allah swt is in constant control then are they not one and the same?

    Although seen through different eyes and thought with different minds?

    And the same applies for those that live by the view Allah swt is in full control, we see all the time how people in distress make the call..

    All praise is due to Allah swt.

    ..and we wish things were different wherever they can be.


    The labelling of people as "Qadariyya" or "Jabariyya" is divisive..

    When the actual answer is encompassing of both..

    Allah swt is aware of both.


    ...id totally throw you a curve ball and link to a bible paragraph about king David counting his armies but it was deleted last time I posted it.

    I found it quite profound..

    Ironically I only read it because it was posted on the forum a while ago.



    ...Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Lol what an interesting title... what was the point even?


    Not knowing about the terms?

    Knowing the Quran is encompassing of both views as one view? (Imo)

    In conclusion..

    I constantly worry and fear Allah swt.

    But only because I know my own sins and character flaws.

    ..I hope to be in a better condition by the end.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:11 PM.

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    SintoDinto's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    @SintoDinto

    Some people seem to have developed a large vocabulary after Muhammad for which Allah has provided no sanction.



    Aaaanyways.....since you subscribe to such terms......which are you?



    Aaaanyways.....since you subscribe to such terms......which are you?
    @Abz2000 @M.I.A. oh no, I merely looked up a dream interpretation of (insert dream here so mods dont delete because they warned me about dream interpretation posts) on a Turkish site and it said i am following (without realizing it, lol) "sapik mezhepler" (perverted "madhabs" or sects) such as qadarii\yya or jabariyya. i had no clue what either of those meant s i googled it. im just an ahl al sunna muslim but i lean towards ashari and maturidi. (dont know if thats bad or not, i at one point was a salafi until i read the risale i nur after a traumatic incident, but my imaan was low anyway, and i didn't have much support from outside as some my family followed an offshoot of nursiyyah known as hidhma). i believe the dream happened because i sometimes either have extreme wiswas due to low self esteem and worry too much about my sins while still committing sins that are somewhat outside my control (yelling in haste, even at my mother, being rude, etc. even though most of the community thinks im a charming gentleman) due to borderline personality disorder which resulted from a lifetime of trauma, and this believing that I am in control, or the reverse for when I confuse what qadr is, such as when I dont wake up for fajr because my meds for borderline and anxiety, etc. make me sleepy and I then fail to do adhkaar and calamities occur, an i say "allah has decreed it" or "shaytaan is trying extra hard to hurt me" i am to embarassed to ask these questions, but now they are in the limelight. i also have other disorders such as autism. could you all help me out? what is qadr? shaikh bediuzzaman described qadr like the western philosophy of occasionalism, saying it is like the child who is on his father's back and asks him to take him up a mountain, but then develops a cold due to the cold weather (or something like that). Allah creates the act, the person decides on the act. i didnt buy on that the whole way, saying based on the verse, "....You have brought here just as you have...." (Allah addressing the rows of people on the day of Judgement in the exact same spot as when they started when their souls were first created.) but i heard dua can change qadr. ??????? EDIT: bediuzzaman was sternly against the western philosophers, i was merely drawing a comparison from wikipedia.
    Last edited by SintoDinto; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:39 PM.

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    i sometimes either have extreme wiswas due to low self esteem and worry too much about my sins while still committing sins
    ..well, it's not like you dont know the answer.

    sins that are somewhat outside my control (yelling in haste, even at my mother, being rude, etc. even though most of the community thinks im a charming gentleman) due to borderline personality disorder which resulted from a lifetime of trauma
    ..whatever you think is aimed at you, is actually aimed by yourself..
    It's a circular argument for you who break the cycle.

    Do you wonder if other people are sinless or just clever enough to stop it? Lol.. sorry.

    Maybe they dont even know.

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by M.I.A. View Post
    ..well, it's not like you dont know the answer.



    ..whatever you think is aimed at you, is actually aimed by yourself..
    It's a circular argument for you who break the cycle.

    Do you wonder if other people are sinless or just clever enough to stop it? Lol.. sorry.

    Maybe they dont even know.
    aimed at me aimed at myself? elaborate.... what do you mean i already know the answer.

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    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    It's easy to avoid them really! Just stick to ahlus sunnah wal jamaah creed. Ahlus sunnah are recognised by the group which has the majority of Scholars:

    Imam Abu Dawood (Rahimahullah) has quoted the well known Hadith concerning the division of the Muslim Ummah into seventy-three sects in his Sunan (3/4580, English edn):

    Abu Amir al-Hawdhani said, “Mu’awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan (may Allah be pleased with him) stood among us and said, ‘Beware! The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood among us and said’: ‘Beware! The People of the Book before (you) were split up into 72 sects, and this community will be split up into 73, seventy-two of them will go to Hell and one of them will go to Paradise, and it is the majority group (Jama’ah).’
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    Ümit's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by SintoDinto View Post
    Qadariyya and Jabariyya. Qadariyya is the view that all human beings possess total free will, and are thus responsible for their afterlife and independent of Allah's qadr, and jabariyya is the opposite, saying Allah does everything
    My alarm bells are making overtime since I discovered this thread.
    In case we, as good muslims, are struggling with such a difficult question which we cannot understand, we do not just flip coins and depending on its outcome choose one of the available options.

    We keep our current faith and trust Allah that the answer is fair, just and although logical, its logic may be more complicated than we may understand at the moment.

    We are just simple creatures and our minds are very limited. We really do not understand everything...So do not expect that from yourself.
    just keep your patience and maybe Allah will provide you the answer in a way you can understand.

    I never heard of these two groups Qadariyya and Jabariyya...but my gut feeling says they both are equally wrong and both are dangerously close to leave the folds of Islam.
    Saying we have 100% free will and therefore we must be independant of Qadr is saying we do not believe in Qadr...which is one of the pillars of Imaan. it is questioning Allahs omnipotence.
    On the other hand saying that everything is set beforehand by Allah and therefore we do not have 100% free will is like saying Allah lies to us.

    So both of the options are very very dangerous and seem to contradict each other.
    In this case I would choose neither of them and just be patient that there is a third option out there somewhere where I can keep the both conditions that:

    1. we have 100% free will, and
    2 Qadr exist.

    How I think free will and Qadr relate to each other, I will try to illustrate with an example:

    Person A and person B are struggling together with a difficult task and cannot complete it alone.
    So person A suggests to ask for help from person with the red jacket or the person with the green jacket who are standing near them.
    person B takes a glance at the both candidates and says: "the man in the green jacket can help us but the man in the red jacket wont.
    Person A: "how do you know?"
    Person B: "just wait and see"

    So person A asks help from both of them.

    Indeed, person with the green jacket is willing to help but person with red jacket rejects.

    Person A: how did you know?
    Person B: I happened to know both of them!


    So
    1: the fact that person B knew both individuals and could guess their decision does not affect the freedom of will of person in red or green.
    2: The person in red has no right to say "I rejected only because person B knew beforehand that I would reject"

    Allah is omnipotent...He knows the future and He knows us better than us and which choices we will make in our lives...so Qadr is real.
    But that does not mean that Qadr is limiting our free will....so we are still 100% responsible of our own actions!!
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    Al_Ghazali's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by SintoDinto View Post
    Qadariyya and Jabariyya. Qadariyya is the view that all human beings possess total free will, and are thus responsible for their afterlife and independent of Allah's qadr, and jabariyya is the opposite, saying Allah does everything
    Since Allah is the Creator, He created everything. And that means everything. There's no way around that.

    It's only a matter of the degree to which one is aware of this Reality. The concept of free-will becomes meaningless in this context.

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali View Post
    Since Allah is the Creator, He created everything. And that means everything. There's no way around that.

    It's only a matter of the degree to which one is aware of this Reality. The concept of free-will becomes meaningless in this context.
    so what are you saying? please elaborate

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Allah knows our futures but, our actions are still our actions. The concept of asking for forgiveness wouldn't make sense if we weren't the ones who had control of our own actions.
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    so what are you saying? please elaborate
    I'm saying that humans are the only creatures to percieve Oneness in multiplicity. Allah is One; ergo, Allah transcends dualistic concepts. For example, Allah transcends ideas such as good and evil. This is why Adam and Eve covered themselves up in shame after they ate from the tree. No longer were they in the perceptual presence of the Divine Unity of Allah.

    If all is from Allah, then everything points to Allah. But for most of humanity, people have been conditioned to regard certain moments and events as inherently bad or inherently good. But humans have no way of knowing what really is good or bad. Only Allah knows.

    "And it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know." (AI-Baqarah, 2:216)
    Henceforth, freewill becomes meaningless when one has decided to perceive the Divine Names of Allah behind everything. Indeed, His Names are perpetually manifested in creation... what's the point in free will when Allah becomes the only Reality?

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali View Post
    I'm saying that humans are the only creatures to percieve Oneness in multiplicity. Allah is One; ergo, Allah transcends dualistic concepts. For example, Allah transcends ideas such as good and evil. This is why Adam and Eve covered themselves up in shame after they ate from the tree. No longer were they in the perceptual presence of the Divine Unity of Allah.

    If all is from Allah, then everything points to Allah. But for most of humanity, people have been conditioned to regard certain moments and events as inherently bad or inherently good. But humans have no way of knowing what really is good or bad. Only Allah knows.



    Henceforth, freewill becomes meaningless when one has decided to perceive the Divine Names of Allah behind everything. Indeed, His Names are perpetually manifested in creation... what's the point in free will when Allah becomes the only Reality?
    if you put it that way...yes...free will is meaningless compared to Allah being the creator of everything...
    but still...you seem to underestimate free will...

    free will is the only but the most important attribute of humans to make us better than all other creatures....normally we are weak slow and disobedient creatures compared to angels. it is because of our free will that we have the highest ranks. it is because of free will that we are the closest creatures to Allah.

    The angels just do their job...they are always obedient...they cannot say no.
    we humans however...we have free will.
    we CHOOSE to serve Allah. we choose out of free will to be obediant.
    that is the difference.
    so comparing Allah being the creator of everything and free will is like comparing apples and oranges.

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    Al_Ghazali's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ümit View Post
    if you put it that way...yes...free will is meaningless compared to Allah being the creator of everything...
    but still...you seem to underestimate free will...

    free will is the only but the most important attribute of humans to make us better than all other creatures....normally we are weak slow and disobedient creatures compared to angels. it is because of our free will that we have the highest ranks. it is because of free will that we are the closest creatures to Allah.

    The angels just do their job...they are always obedient...they cannot say no.
    we humans however...we have free will.
    we CHOOSE to serve Allah. we choose out of free will to be obediant.
    that is the difference.
    so comparing Allah being the creator of everything and free will is like comparing apples and oranges.
    I wasn't comparing them. I was arguing about how dualistic notions such as self-determination and free-will are essentially irrelevant. The devil uses these concepts to avert man from his duty to submit to Oneness.

    The jinns also have free will, so I don't see what's so special about the relationship between free-will and humans. If we refer to the following Quranic verse, we can see what really makes humans the apex of creation:

    2:31- And He imparted unto Adam the names of all things; then He brought them within the ken of the angels and said: "Declare unto Me the names of these [things], if what you say is true."

    2:32- They replied: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! No knowledge have we save that which Thou hast imparted unto us. Verily, Thou alone art all-knowing, truly wise."
    Allah taught man to perceive all the manifestations of His Divine names and attributes. It's not that angels don't have free will, but that they are limited to specific dimensional wavelengths where Allah's names are manifested at each instant.

    Human's, however, know all the divine names, and have the means to spiritually percieve Reality in all dimensional categories. We are the only creatures who can manifest all of Allah's names, and can intimately know Allah as the totality of His names.
    Last edited by Al_Ghazali; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:43 AM.
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_Ghazali View Post
    I wasn't comparing them. I was arguing about how dualistic notions such as self-determination and free-will are essentially irrelevant. The devil uses these concepts to avert man from his duty to submit to Oneness.

    The jinns also have free will, so I don't see what's so special about the relationship between free-will and humans. If we refer to the following Quranic verse, we can see what really makes humans the apex of creation:



    Allah taught man to perceive all the manifestations of His Divine names and attributes. It's not that angels don't have free will, but that they are limited to specific dimensional wavelengths where Allah's names are manifested at each instant.

    Human's, however, know all the divine names, and have the means to spiritually percieve Reality in all dimensional categories. We are the only creatures who can manifest all of Allah's names, and can intimately know Allah as the totality of His names.
    yes, you are right...I did not think that through. Thanks for correcting me!!

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    Abz2000's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Hasbara Quote ^^
    Allah taught man to perceive all the manifestations of His Divine names and attributes. It's not that angels don't have free will, but that they are limited to specific dimensional wavelengths where Allah's names are manifested at each instant.

    Human's, however, know all the divine names, and have the means to spiritually percieve Reality in all dimensional categories. We are the only creatures who can manifest all of Allah's names, and can intimately know Allah as the totality of His names.


    Al-An'am 6:103

    لَّا تُدْرِكُهُ ٱلْأَبْصَٰرُ وَهُوَ يُدْرِكُ ٱلْأَبْصَٰرَۖ وَهُوَ ٱللَّطِيفُ ٱلْخَبِيرُ

    No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, and He is acquainted with all things.





    Some people love to dispute about Allah without ANY clear authority or backing.
    Such behaviour is reprehensible in the sight of Allah and of the believers.....

    Humans, even Prophets CANNOT encompass or fully comprehend all of Allah's divine attributes -let alone manifest them- just as they cannot comprehend or encompass Qadr - even up until the day of judgement.

    ....... Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' .......

    From:

    Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7510
    In-book reference : Book 97, Hadith 135
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 93, Hadith 601
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    https://sunnah.com/bukhari/97/135


    ... I would then stand before Him and would extol Him with praises which I am not able to do now, but with which Allah would inspire me ...

    Reference : Sahih Muslim 193 e
    In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 387
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 377
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    https://sunnah.com/muslim/1/387


    Don't you see what (misfortune) has overtaken us? I shall then set off and come below the Throne and fall down prostrate before my Lord; then Allah would reveal to me and inspire me with some of His Praises and Glorifications which He had not revealed to anyone before me. He would then say: Muhammad, raise thy head; ask and it would be granted; intercede and intercession would be accepted


    Reference : Sahih Muslim 194 a
    In-book reference : Book 1, Hadith 388
    USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 1, Hadith 378
    (deprecated numbering scheme)

    https://sunnah.com/muslim/1/388




    Ghafir 40:35

    ٱلَّذِينَ يُجَٰدِلُونَ فِىٓ ءَايَٰتِ ٱللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ سُلْطَٰنٍ أَتَىٰهُمْۖ كَبُرَ مَقْتًا عِندَ ٱللَّهِ وَعِندَ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَطْبَعُ ٱللَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ قَلْبِ مُتَكَبِّرٍ جَبَّارٍ

    English - Yusuf Ali

    "(Such) as dispute about the Signs of Allah, without any authority that hath reached them, grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of Allah and of the Believers. Thus doth Allah, seal up every heart - of arrogant and obstinate Transgressors."






    It is without doubt that al-Qadr exists - on one front as a recording (possibly tuned on laylat al Qadr - although there is an overall picture stretching to and beyond the day of judgement) and on some fronts as Allah Himself taking direct control, but it is without doubt that the human mind cannot comprehend it fully -just as it cannot fully comprehend the fact that Allah is AL-HAYY AL QAYYUM without being created and independent of "time".
    Last edited by Abz2000; 3 Weeks Ago at 09:14 AM.
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    How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?













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    Al_Ghazali's Avatar
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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Humans, even Prophets CANNOT encompass or fully comprehend all of Allah's divine attributes -let alone manifest them- just as they cannot comprehend or encompass Qadr - even up until the day of judgement.
    Perhaps if you read more closely, you would have realized that I never said that humans can "encompass or fully comprehend 'all' of Allah's divine attributes." This is a strawman argument of yours. There is a clear difference between manifesting His names, and manifesting His names in totality. The latter's an impossibility, since Allah is the Eternal, and humans are not.

    But given your obsession and knee-jerk reaction to accusing people of "hasbara," I didn't expect much insight from you.
    Last edited by Al_Ghazali; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:34 AM.

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Al Hayy and Al Qayyum are only two attributes.
    None of them can be manifested by humans in the divine context of eternity and complete self-subsistence and independence.


    manifest
    /ˈmanɪfɛst/

    show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.


    When "ed" is added to "manifest" - it becomes blasphemy to attibute it to humans in the context of the Divine Attributes unless accepting that Allah is manifesting His Divine Attributes (such as raising the dead) through people - by His leave - and as a sign of His power and ability, and sometimes as a sign of Qiyaamah.
    The discerning mind can discern between 'Eesa and ad-dajjaal - simply by evaluating claim to authority of divine attributes.


    Repent - your kaafir leaders are more insignificant before Allah than your false matrix which is caused to go into meltdown before truth..

    And lol, did yous notice how the Son of Trump (who also happens to be involved in brain–computer interface (BCI) research and AI robotics) chose to release his satellites just at the beginning of the last ten nights of Ramadan when the angels arrive?
    Chinese fakes are not so much of a joke in comparison despite the serious implications and the wrangling over 5g Control Factor.


    @Ümit
    You’ll find yourself justifying and defending and often this will go around in circles – because it’s not about you. Be really clear on what’s yours and what’s theirs. If you feel as though you’re defending yourself too many times against accusations or questions that don’t fit, you might be being projected on to. You don’t have to explain, justify or defend yourself or deal with a misfired accusation. Remember that.

    Read the hasbara handbook if you want some malware definitions in your database.

    Knowing the favourite go-to’s for toxic people will sharpen your radar, making the manipulations easier to spot and easier to name. More importantly, if you know the characteristic signs of a toxic person, you’ll have a better chance of catching yourself before you tie yourself in double knots trying to please them.


    Iman vs Propaganda
    Last edited by Abz2000; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:03 PM.
    How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?













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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    @AbZ
    Thanks for the warning Abz, I appreciate that.

    Actually, I do not have the feeling that I have to defend myself very often. Besides, I always make sure that I do not argue about things that are useless like, fighting about who is right or who is wrong. That is not worth my time and it won't contribute to the topic.
    I do however like to defend others if I get the feeling that they are right or being falsely accused.

    For me it is important that the messages in my posts arrive correctly on the other side. If I notice that the conversation goes around in circles, then I always try to be the wise one and step out of the conversation.
    | Likes Abz2000 liked this post

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    Re: How to avoid leaning towards these two misguided creeds in thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abz2000 View Post
    Al Hayy and Al Qayyum are only two attributes.
    None of them can be manifested by humans in the divine context of eternity and complete self-subsistence and independence.

    ....
    What on earth are you talking about?

    I don't understand why I have to teach people like you the basics, but there is a fine line indeed between manifesting the names of Allah from a position of Absolute Oneness; and manifesting them from the local loint of the everlasting spirit.

    Your paranoia is clouding your reasoning.


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