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kadafi
02-28-2005, 05:51 PM
:sl:, Peace!

I'd like to start a new discussion regardin' the scientific realities in the Qur'an and the Bible.

Bear in mind that this thread has started in good peace.

Please post your opinions or claims (no CAP only content) regardin' the scientific realities the Qur'an and/or the Bible. You've to support your claims with substantiated evidence.

Regards
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Sinner
03-01-2005, 05:48 PM
I do not think either should be used as science guides. Some people can read far too much in passages from either which no science instruction was intended.
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kadafi
03-01-2005, 08:06 PM
I never mentioned to be an scientific guide. We, Muslims, do not regard the Qur'an as an scientific book but an guidance for mankind.

However, there are some scientific realities in the Qur'an which I'd like to discuss.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-01-2005, 10:52 PM
WEBSITES:

http://www.kyaz.com/English/ModernScience.html
http://www.-----------------------
http://www.irfi.org/all_articles.htm
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Sinner
03-02-2005, 06:49 AM
there are some scientific realities in the Qur'an which I'd like to discuss
Sounds good, but it is too much of a project to respond to everything which has been posted already. I can do a little at a time. It is true that there were superstitious people who thought the world was flat, it was always known amoung navigators and the better educated however that the world was round since the days of the Greeks. One Eratosthenes actually measured the circumference of the Earth with suprizing accuracy. The Arabs preseved the works of Claudius Ptolemy, who came up with a less accurate figure for the earth's circumference. Divine inspiration is not the only explanation as to why the Quran would mention that the world is round. Common knowledge would do.

http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/stargaze/Scolumb.htm



,
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-02-2005, 10:08 PM
But this explanation is ignorant of the isolated lifestyle of the arabs at that time. And it is not 'common knowledge'. While it was theorized at the time of the greeks, their observations actually could not confirm if the earth was spherical or simply circular. It was only definitively proven when Magellan sailed around the world.

Also, there were hundreds of myths at the time of the early muslims in arabia. they lived amidst a sea of ignorance. How is it that this cystal clear fact reached them without any scientific research?
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Sinner
03-09-2005, 07:23 AM
The Quran also suggest a flat earth -

Ta-ha, Sura 20:53, "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky. With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others."

Noah, Sura 71:19, "'And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."

Al-hijr, Stoneland, Rock City, Sura 15:19, "And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance."
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aamirsaab
03-09-2005, 10:51 AM
that doesnt mean the earth is flat - that means the earth is like(keyword) carpet - i.e has similar properties - padding for a wooden floor etc.
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kadafi
03-09-2005, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Sinner
The Quran also suggest a flat earth -

Ta-ha, Sura 20:53, "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky. With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others."

Noah, Sura 71:19, "'And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."

Al-hijr, Stoneland, Rock City, Sura 15:19, "And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance."
Where is the word flat in the ayats (verses)?

What does spread mean?

The word spread means (accordin' to the American Heritage Dictionary)

VERB: Inflected forms: spread, spread·ing, spreads

TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To open to a fuller extent or width; stretch: spread out the tablecloth; a bird spreading its wings. 2. To make wider the gap between; move farther apart: spread her fingers. 3a. To distribute over a surface in a layer: spread varnish on the steps. b. To cover with a layer: spread a cracker with butter. 4a. To distribute widely: The tornado spread destruction. b. To make a wide or extensive arrangement of: We spread the bicycle parts out on the floor. c. To exhibit or display the full extent of: the scene that was spread before us. 5. To cause to become widely seen or known; scatter or disseminate: spread the news; spread the beam of the flashlight. 6a. To prepare (a table) for eating; set. b. To arrange (food or a meal) on a table. 7. To flatten (a rivet end, for example) by pounding.
INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To be extended or enlarged. 2. To become distributed or widely dispersed. 3. To increase in range of occurrence; become known or prevalent over a wide area: The word spread fast. 4. To be exhibited, displayed, or visible in broad or full extent: the vista spread seemingly to infinity. 5. To become or admit of being distributed in a layer. 6. To become separated; be forced farther apart.
NOUN: 1a. The act of spreading. b. Dissemination, as of news; diffusion. 2a. An open area of land; an expanse. b. A ranch, a farm, or an estate. 3. The extent or limit to which something is or can be spread; range. 4. A cloth covering for a bed, table, or other piece of furniture. 5. Informal An abundant meal laid out on a table. 6. A food to be spread on bread or crackers. 7a. Two facing pages of a magazine or newspaper, often with related matter extending across the fold. b. A story or advertisement running across two or more columns of a magazine or newspaper. 8. A difference, as between two figures or totals. 9a. A position taken in two or more options or futures contracts in order to profit from a change in their relative prices. b. The difference between the price asked and bid for a particular security. 10. A number of points offered to equalize the chances of winning in a wager on a competition, usually between sports teams. Also called point spread. 11. Wingspread.
IDIOM: spread (oneself) thin To work on too many projects: overextend oneself.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English spreden, from Old English -sprdan (as in tsprdan, to spread out). See sper- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: spreada·bili·ty —NOUN
spreada·ble —ADJECTIVE
spreada·bly —ADVERB

http://www.bartleby.com/61/93/S0669300.html

Spreading out doesn't connote to a "flat surface" but it reflects the vastness of the object (in this case, the earth) and not the flatness.

Let's put this in a logical perspective, the verses that the Almighty reveleaved states that He spread the surface like a carpet in order to protect his Servants. The earth beneath our feet (30 miles) is fiery and hot and without the "carpet surface", we wouldn't survive. Ergo why the verse:

And the earth We spread out, and placed therein firm mountains, and caused to grow therein all kinds of things in due proportion, is explained by the next verse:

And We have provided therein means of living, for you and for those whom you provide not (moving (living) creatures, cattle, beasts, and other animals) (15:20)

Peace
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-09-2005, 06:47 PM
:sl:
Kadafi beat me to it.

Sinner posted
Ta-ha, Sura 20:53, "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out
This verse is 100% correct. What is "spread out" about the earth?

The tectonic plates of course! The earth's crust is indeed like a carpet, and if you deny it any geologist will laugh at you.

So Sinner is trying to confuse two things. The Qur'an is so detailed that it discusses the overall shape of the earth as geospherical, and goes further to describe the outer layer of the lithosphere as spread out.

The Qur'an is 100% accurate.
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czgibson
08-09-2005, 03:56 PM
Greetings to all,
I'm very interested in the whole idea that the Qur'an contains scientific knowledge in advance of its discovery by scientists. I'd like to examine some of the points made in one of Ansar al-'Adl's posts on this topic.

The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth’s shape:

“And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped.” [Al-Qur’aan 79:30]*

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha, which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth. Thus the Qur’aan correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur’aan was revealed was that the earth is flat.
Is an ostrich egg really flattened at two ends? All the ones I've seen have been very slightly pointed, giving an oval shape. There is a picture of one half-way down this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrich

Regarding the belief that the Earth is flat, this view (amazingly) is still held by some people. See here:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

Space outside organized astronomical systems was earlier assumed to be a vacuum.* Astrophysicists later discovered the presence of bridges of matter in this interstellar space. These bridges of matter are called plasma, and consist of completely ionized gas containing equal number of free electrons and positive ions. Plasma is sometimes called the fourth state of matter (besides the three known states viz. solid, liquid and gas). The Qur’aan mentions the presence of this interstellar material in the following verse:

“He Who created the heavens And the earth and all That is between.” [Al-Qur’aan 25:59]

*It would be ridiculous, for anybody to even suggest that the presence of interstellar galactic material was known 1400 years ago.
I submit that it is ridiculous to believe that this verse contains scientific knowledge of any kind. It is simply a general poetic description.

PLANTS CREATED IN PAIRS, MALE AND FEMALE

Previously humans did not know that plants too have male and female gender distinctions. Botany states that every plant has a male and female gender. Even the plants that are unisexual have distinct elements of both male and female.

“‘And has sent Down water from the sky.’ With it have We produced Diverse pairs of plants Each separate from the others.” [Al-Qur’aan 20:53]
It is correct to point out that unisexual plants have both male and female parts on the same individual, but in that case, why does the Qur'an say "Diverse pairs of plants Each separate from the others."?

Although I have chosen these three issues to look at critically, it must be said that there are some amazing coincidences between the poetry of the Qur'an and modern scientific knowledge. I am not persuaded, however, that any of them constitute genuine scientifc insight, for me they are simply poetic coincidences.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-09-2005, 11:11 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by czgibson
It is correct to point out that unisexual plants have both male and female parts on the same individual, but in that case, why does the Qur'an say "Diverse pairs of plants Each separate from the others."?
The word by word translation of the verse would be:

faakhrajna (and We brought forth) bihi (with it) azwajan (pairs) min (of) nabatin (vegetation) shatta (various).

The phrase 'each seperate from the others' has been translated in all other translations as 'diverse' or 'various'.

On the issue of the egg, I'm sure they vary slightly, but I found the following links which have good images:
http://www.woodworkersauction.com/WO...globeegglg.htm
http://www.trophyroomcollection.com/eggs/ooglb.html

Although I have chosen these three issues to look at critically, it must be said that there are some amazing coincidences between the poetry of the Qur'an and modern scientific knowledge. I am not persuaded, however, that any of them constitute genuine scientifc insight, for me they are simply poetic coincidences.
On the issue of scientific miracles you might find that I'm not interested in arguing over them very much, nor do I actively rely on them in propagating the message of islam, as many other debators do. Islam spread much more rapidly for several centuries under the preaching of some of the greatest scholars who never had the need to analyze the Qur'an for scientific miracles, than it does under the preaching of those who use scientific miracles. Thus, it doesn't bother me very much if someone complains that the verses are too vague etc. since it should have no impact on the validity of Islam. I do however, argue persistently against any claims of scientific errors in the Qur'an.

Regards
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