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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2005, 11:49 PM
:sl:
I would like to discuss the issue of salvation in Christianity.

Adolf Hitler is reported to have said:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." [1]


[1] = Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

Moreover, in Christian theology, a believer who accepts Christ as his lord and saviour has become saved.

In other words, they place salvation solely on the profession of faith, while Islam stresses the importance of both faith AND righteous deeds.

The Christians are left with a major issue. How does Hitler fit into all of this? IF he was true in what he said, then Christianity has promised a mass murderer paradise.

The Christian debator has three options at this stage:
1. Change the doctrine:

many Christians, when confronted with this fact in a discussion, desperately attempt to change the doctrine of salavtion in Christianity.

"N-n-no it d-doesn't mean t-that..."
"you have to do good deeds too! No free ticket!"
"Jesus didn't take all our sins. Just the minor ones we forget about"

All of these excuses are easily refutable.

2. Declare Hitler not a true Christian:

This is another common defense they may resort to. They attempt to judge Hitler based on His actions even though this violates the Christian doctrine of salvation through acceptance of Christ as a saviour. Hitler did that. But the Christians will argue that he didn't sincerely. They judge people even though the Bible says:
Deuteronomy 32:36 The LORD will judge his people...

But it makes no difference to me. Even if Christians declare that Hitler was not Christian it does not help their argument. Because my point is that regardless of whether he was or wasn't IF he was, then Christianity has the potential to promise mass murderers and criminals paradise.

And this reveals that such a doctrine is impractical. If we examine the crusaders, for example, they slew hundreds of muslims and jews, men, women and children (http://jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/christianhistorywithjews/chronology_of_christian_crusades.htm). They committed tremendous atrocities under the command of the Church. And they believed Christ was their lord and saviour. So Christianity promises them paradise.

3. Evade the argument:

The third tactic that Christians use is that they try to evade the argument. Often they also try to 'counter' the argument by citing criminal acts committed by muslims. But they don't realize that Muslims don't have this problem that they do, because Islam does not promises anyone paradise only on the basis of faith. Islam stresses faith and godd deeds, and whoever does evil will be punished, regardless of whether they are a muslim or Christian.

4. The fourth option for the Christian is that they realize the truth. They realize the ridiculius nature of such a doctrine and convert to Islam.

They won't be the first. Hundreds of thousands of Christians are converting to Islam. Common Christians to (http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/convert_websites.htm) priests and missionaries (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1), all are accepting the truth from the One God.

For more info on hitler:
http://jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/christianhistorywithjews/speeches.htm
http://jews-for-allah.org/messianic-jews/christianhistorywithjews/hitler.htm

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-04-2005, 11:51 PM
http://www.examinethetruth.com/hitler.htm

root
03-05-2005, 02:33 PM
I am not a Christian. But neither do I think Adolf Hitler was religous, though publicly I think he would produce Racial and Religous beliefs tactically to manipulate this for his own power.

Hitler's ideology in the beginning was within Christianity, since it was in the middle of other Christian countries. Muslims were considered to be of lower race not in the same league as Nazism until the middle of the war. Then Nazism used Islam to further the Nazi's strength.


After meeting Hitler and Ribbentrop in Berlin in 1941, the Mufti was approached by Gottlob Berger, head of the SS Main Office in control of recruiting, and by Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler, who made him a part of the SS apparatus. In May, 1943, the Mufti was moved to the SS main office where he participated in the recruiting of Muslims in the Balkans, the USSR, the Middle East, and North Africa. The Grand Mufti was instrumental in the organization and formation of many Muslim units and formations in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht. Hundreds of thousands of Muslims fought for Nazi Germany in the following formations and units: Two Bosnian Muslim Waffen SS Divisions, an Albanian Waffen SS Division in Kosovo-Metohija and Western Macedonia, the 21st Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg", a Muslim SS self-defense regiment in the Rashka (Sandzak) region of Serbia, the Arab Legion (Arabisches Freiheitskorps), the Arab Brigade, the Ostmusselmanische SS-Regiment, the Ostturkischen Waffen Verband der SS made up of Turkistanis, the Waffengruppe der-SS Krim, formations consisting of Chechen Muslims from Chechnya, and a Tatar Regiment der-SS made up of Crimean Tatars, and other Muslim formations in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht, in Bosnia-Hercegovina, the Balkans, North Africa, Nazi-occupied areas of the Soviet Union, and the Middle East.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2005, 11:51 PM
Thanks for your post root. Actually that quote is not very accurate. I have the original article that you cited from and the article fails to produce evidence from historical records. It doesn't give the source.

Also, the Muslims suffered from the Nazis and the Italian allies of the Nazis persecuted the Muslims in africa. To say that muslims of africa joined the Nazis despite their persecution is ridiculous. They were in no position to help anyone.

Furthermore, Hitler did not promote Islamic beliefs, while he did promote Christian beliefs. You didn't read the articles I linked which showed that Hitler was raised a very good Christian and wanted to become a priest.

Lastly, it makes no difference even if Hitler was a muslim! Because Islam does not promise paradise to anyone only on the basis of belief. Hitler would be punished with Hell according to his crimes.

Peace

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-05-2005, 11:53 PM
Here's one of the articles:
Hitler the Christian Evangelist


People often make the claim that Adolph Hitler adhered to Atheism, Humanism or some ancient Nordic pagan mythology. None of these fanciful and wrong ideas hold. Although one of Hitler's henchmen, Alfred Rosenberg, did undertake a campaign of Nordic mythological propaganda, Hitler and most of his henchmen did not believe in it .


Many American books, television documentaries, and Sunday sermons that preach of Hitler's "evil" have eliminated Hitler's god for their Christian audiences, but one only has to read from his own writings to appreciate that Hitler's God equals the same God of the Christian Bible. Hitler held many hysterical beliefs which not only include, God and Providence but also Fate, Social Darwinism, and politics. He spoke, unashamedly, about God, fanaticism, idealism, dogma, and the power of propaganda. Hitler held strong faith in all his convictions. He justified his fight for the German people and against Jews by using Godly and Biblical reasoning. Indeed, one of his most revealing statements makes this quite clear:



"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."



Hitler certainly believed in the Bible's God. He got raised as a Catholic and went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against Christianity. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! As evidence to his claimed Christianity, he said:



"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.


-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)



Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, "On the Jews and their Lies," Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther.


Hitler did not have to parade his belief in God, as so many American Christians do now. Nor did he have to justify his Godly belief against an Atheist movement. He took his beliefs for granted just as most Germans did at that time. His thrust aimed at politics, not religion. But through his political and religious reasoning he established in 1933, a German Reich Christian Church, uniting the Protestant churches to instill faith in a national German Christianity.


Future generations should remember that Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of Christian believing people.


The following quotes provides some of Hitler's expressions of his belief in religion, faith, fanaticism, Providence, and even a few of his paraphrasing of the Bible. It by no means represents the totality of Hitler's concerns. To realize the full context of these quotes, I implore the reader to study Mein Kampf.


The purpose of this text intends to dispute the claims made by Christians that Hitler "was an atheist," or "anti-religious," and to reveal the dangers of belief-systems. This text in no way attempts to give endorsement to anti-Semitism.


Quotations from Mein Kampf

Genius
03-06-2005, 12:08 AM
It is a fact that Muslims served in Hitler's armed force's during World War 2, however their reasons for joining were not the same as Hitler's, they did not care for his racialist agenda rather they used the Nazi's as a way of fighting their own cause's, just a few examples;

Many Balkan Muslims joined the Waffen SS as a way of fighting against the Croats and Serbs who were their ancient enemies, they did not see active duty on the Eastern or Western front and most deserted after the Allied success at D-Day.

There were also Indian Muslim nationalists who had been recruited from POW camps by the Nazi force's , they used this oppurtunity to fight against the British.

We have to remember that Muslim's in this period also fought against Nazi force's, thousands of North Africans fought against their Italian oppressors with the British, thousands of Muslim soldiers from the British empire fought against the Nazi's and Japanese.

Though there was little hostility between Jews and Muslims in Palestine there was nowhere near as much animosity as there is now. Also many moroccan jews were protected from the Nazi's when their Moroccan Muslim patrons refused to hand them over.

As for Muslim persecution at the hands of Hitler i very much doubt there was a organised attempt at eliminating Muslims, maybe some were killed during Operation Babarossa on the Eastern front but i doubt there was any huge attempt to kill them like there was against Jews. Though Hitler probably did see Muslims as inferior his main enemies were the Jews and the Slavic peoples. I believe any persecution of Muslims that did occur was carried out by the Italians.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-06-2005, 02:59 AM
Yes, i was referring to Hitler's ally, Mussolini.

root
03-06-2005, 11:34 AM
It is a fact that Muslims served in Hitler's armed force's during World War 2, however their reasons for joining were not the same as Hitler's, they did not care for his racialist agenda rather they used the Nazi's as a way of fighting their own cause's, just a few examples;

Many Balkan Muslims joined the Waffen SS as a way of fighting against the Croats and Serbs who were their ancient enemies, they did not see active duty on the Eastern or Western front and most deserted after the Allied success at D-Day.

There were also Indian Muslim nationalists who had been recruited from POW camps by the Nazi force's , they used this oppurtunity to fight against the British.

We have to remember that Muslim's in this period also fought against Nazi force's, thousands of North Africans fought against their Italian oppressors with the British, thousands of Muslim soldiers from the British empire fought against the Nazi's and Japanese.

I agree with all your points, I was simply demonstrating how Hitler & Himler used religion as a weapon of tyrany which was not under the banner of christianity as the first poster would have us beleive.

Finally, those battle groups and the numbers quoted were real and present. Hitler even had a "British Free Corps" numbering several hundred.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-07-2005, 02:20 AM
My point root, is not a historical point but rather a theological one.

That Hitler serves as an example of a criminal whom Christian theology promises paradise because of his acceptance of Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

This demonstrates that the doctrine of salvation solely on the basis of faith is flawed. Islam promises salvation on the basis of faith and good deeds.

:w:

Sephiroth
03-13-2005, 05:36 AM
Some statements on religion (as per Wikipedia (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hitler): each indentation represents a separate quote.)

Many of the conversational statements [1] (http://www.y-quest.net/hitler-english.htm) that are made in this section (from July 1941 to June 1942), seem to belie the public stance that Hitler often took, especially early in his career, of being a defender of many religious, and particularly Christian values. Some have sought to mitigate the value of these remarks, but with a man as deceitful as Hitler is known to have been, private remarks seem a much better indication of his true opinions on some matters than his public speeches.

The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practices a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect.

Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love.

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of human failure.

I've thus prevented my Catholic and Protestant supporters from forming groups against one another, and inadvertently knocking each other out with the bible. So we never became involved with these churches' forms of worship.

It's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic. When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.

It seems to me that nothing would be more foolish than to reestablish the worship of Wotan. Our old mythology had ceased to be viable when Christianity implanted itself. Nothing dies unless it is moribund. At that period the ancient world was divided between the systems of philosophy and the worship of idols. It's not desirable that the whole of humanity should be stultified— and the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.

It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself.
The man who lives in communion with nature necessarily finds himself in opposition to the Churches. And that's why they're heading for ruin - for science is bound to win.

We'll see to it that the churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth.

The Christian religion tries to get out of it by explaining that one must attach a symbolic value to the images of Holy Writ. Any man who made the same claim four hundred years ago would have ended his career at the stake, with an accompaniment of Hosiannas. By joining in the game of tolerance, religion has won back ground by comparison with bygone centuries.

What is this God who takes pleasure only in seeing men grovel before him? Try to picture to yourselves the meaning of the following, quite simple story: God creates the conditions for sin. Later on he succeeds, with the help of the Devil, in causing man to sin. Then he employs a virgin to bring into the world a son who, by his death, will redeem humanity!

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless— A negro with his taboos is crushingly superior to the human being who seriously believes in transubstantiation.

When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only Folk who are immunized against the disease.

Pure Christianity— the Christianity of the catacombs— is concerned with translating the Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics.

Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it's the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back 15 centuries. The only thing that would be still worse would be victory for the Jew through Bolshevism. If Bolshevism triumphed, mankind would lose the gift of laughter and joy. It would become merely a shapeless mass, doomed to grayness and despair.

The priests of antiquity were closer to nature, and they sought modestly for the meaning of things. Instead of that, Christianity promulgates its inconsistent dogmas and imposes them by force.

It is a great pity that this tendency towards religious thought can find no better outlet than the Jewish pettifoggery of the Old Testament, for a religious Folk who, in the solitude of winter, continually seek ultimate light on their religious problems with the assistance of the Bible, must eventually become spiritually deformed. The wretched Folk strive to extract truths from these Jewish chicaneries, where in fact no truths exist. As a result they become embedded in some rut of thought and, unless they possess an exceptionally commonsense mind, degenerate into religious maniacs.

It is deplorable that the Bible should have been translated into German, and that the whole of the German Folk should have thus become exposed to the whole of this Jewish mumbo jumbo. So long as the wisdom, particularly of the Old Testament, remained exclusively in the Latin of the Church, there was little danger that sensible people would become the victims of illusions as the result of studying the Bible. But since the Bible became common property, a whole heap of people have found opened to them lines of religious thought which— particularly in conjunction with the German characteristic of persistent and somewhat melancholy meditation— as often as not turned them into religious maniacs. When one recollects further that the Catholic Church has elevated to the status of Saints a whole number of madmen, one realizes why movements such as that of the Flagellants came inevitably into existence in the Middle Ages in Germany.

I could find many many more, but the point is: for some people, religion, any religion, is a tool. It can be used to stir a crowd to anger, get them to don uniforms or take up arms, it can get them to do horrible things: kill people, bomb people, push them into gas chambers and ovens, fly planes into buildings. If a believer did not have to be discerning, salvation would be easy.

Sephiroth
03-13-2005, 07:08 AM
My point root, is not a historical point but rather a theological one.

That Hitler serves as an example of a criminal whom Christian theology promises paradise because of his acceptance of Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

This demonstrates that the doctrine of salvation solely on the basis of faith is flawed. Islam promises salvation on the basis of faith and good deeds.

:w:
The idea of the doctrine of iustification solo fide is that one who has faith will do good works, but when he is in error, he is not ****ed by his actions, but forgiven his sins on the basis of his faith and the grace granted him by God, which makes him more just and prone to greater works.

As Martin Luther said, "Our faith in Christ does not free us from works but from false opinions concerning works... I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God."

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2005, 02:38 PM
I could find many many more, but the point is: for some people, religion, any religion, is a tool. It can be used to stir a crowd to anger, get them to don uniforms or take up arms, it can get them to do horrible things: kill people, bomb people, push them into gas chambers and ovens, fly planes into buildings. If a believer did not have to be discerning, salvation would be easy.

Agreed. But my point is that the notion that one is SAVED through acceptance of Christ is rather flawed.

I understand your point that good deeds are the result of faith, but my question still stands. Why is it that Christ died to SAVE people? Why is it that salvation is promised on the basis of faith?

We don't even need to use the Hitler example. We can use the example of the Crusaders. They murdered thousands of Muslims and Jews in the name of Christ. How can Christianity promise such criminals paradise?

yoshiyahu
03-14-2005, 12:22 AM
I could find many many more, but the point is: for some people, religion, any religion, is a tool. It can be used to stir a crowd to anger, get them to don uniforms or take up arms, it can get them to do horrible things: kill people, bomb people, push them into gas chambers and ovens, fly planes into buildings. If a believer did not have to be discerning, salvation would be easy.

Hitler wasn't neccessarily Christian, but on the other hand he quoted a lot of the works of Martin Luther in support - because Martin Luther was no different in his views, and would have perpetrated a holocaust had he the chance.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 12:26 AM
So my question remains. What is the doctrine of salvation in Christianity? How can we accept a doctrine that promises the likes of Hitler and the Crusaders paradise?

mule
03-14-2005, 02:14 AM
I for one am glad that God saves people with problems. Not all of us are perfect.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 02:25 AM
I for one am glad that God saves people with problems. Not all of us are perfect.

Indeed. Are you supporting the hypothesis that the sacrifice of Christ was solely for the removal of our minor sins that we forget and that repentence is required for the major sins?

The thing I don't understand about Christianity is that the law of atonement and repentence in Judaism was already there. It was a perfect system. Why the need for a saviour?

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 02:35 AM
I for one am glad that God saves people with problems. Not all of us are perfect.
HaShem often saves, but a side that christianity likes to ignore is that HaShem also destroys, they like to blame it on Satan (an entity Jesus can't control).

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7]

Sephiroth
03-14-2005, 07:11 AM
Agreed. But my point is that the notion that one is SAVED through acceptance of Christ is rather flawed.

I understand your point that good deeds are the result of faith, but my question still stands. Why is it that Christ died to SAVE people? Why is it that salvation is promised on the basis of faith?

We don't even need to use the Hitler example. We can use the example of the Crusaders. They murdered thousands of Muslims and Jews in the name of Christ. How can Christianity promise such criminals paradise?
I personally don't believe that it does, unless they would have truly repented from their actions. Christianity preaches the forgiveness of sin, but to obtain it you must repent. The Pope and the nobles were well aware that their actions were set in the context of secular gain, rather than a religious cause. The papacy wanted control over the Holy Lands, and the nobles wanted the riches that would come from that. Their religious authority for doing this rested solely with the Catholic doctrine that the pope carried authority equal to God's on earth: a doctrine not based in scripture. For those that truly believed in the Church at that time, they would not know if their actions ran contradictory to scripture, because the sole authority was the Pope and scripture was kept from them. As for the vast majority of crusaders, uneducated peasants and serfs who had never been more than ten miles for the place of their birth, the Church represented a secular, rather than religious authority, and their sole experience with religion was sitting in a stone building while a priest behind a choir screen sang the mass in latin (a language they couldn't understand) and all they could do was listen.

Regardless, and before I get into explaining Justification by Faith Alone, there is something I have been forgetting in examining your earlier comments. I, as a Lutheran, believe in the doctrine of iustification solo fide, but the Crusaders, as Catholics, and Hitler, who was baptised Catholic and grew up in Catholic Austria, as well has a little more than half of Germany, did not. Catholicism preaches salvation on the basis of both faith and works. I did not remember this at the time I wrote my first response, because I was concerned with defending my own doctrine. Forgive me. That was prideful. One of the promises the pope made to the crusaders is that their actions (their works) would earn them salvation. They were meant not to see their actions as sinful deeds, but rather holy ones that would earn them a place in paradise. As I see it, it doesn't really matter whether it is a doctrine of faith or faith and works, both can be manipulated to evil ends and a believer must therefore be discerning.

The point of Jesus death on the Calvary Cross, according to Christianity, was the sealing of a New Covenant. Christian theology holds that the Abrahamic and Sinai covenants were spiritual preparation revealed to man by God for this newest covenant to be sealed by the Messiah. For Christians, the evidence that these covenants were inadequate to stand alone is that they were frequently abrogated by the people. To my mind, this was foretold by the passage from the book of Jeremiah:


31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,"
declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD .
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. (Jeremiah 31: 31-33)

The laws of the former covenants were like training wheels for the righteousness that would earn a man a place in paradise, but many became smug and assured of their salvation, because these covenants had been revealed unto them. This is explained in Paul’s letter to the Romans (one of the most important books, to my mind, in the New Testament for explaining the New Covenant):


17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth– 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.
28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. (Romans 2:17-29)
This, for Christians, is a key achievement of the New Covenant, sealed by the death of Jesus Christ: that the law lies in the hearts of all mankind and it is faith in its principles, not the outward actions of the follower, which may be feigned, that is the prerequisite of obtaining salvation through it. From that faith springs good works.


In Romans 7, St. Paul says, "The law is spiritual." What does that mean? If the law were physical, then it could be satisfied by works, but since it is spiritual, no one can satisfy it unless everything he does springs from the depths of the heart. But no one can give such a heart except the Spirit of God, who makes the person be like the law, so that he actually conceives a heartfelt longing for the law and henceforward does everything, not through fear or coercion, but from a free heart. - Martin Luther

I could explain this further, but I think the book of Romans does so better than I, so I’ll single out some quotations for you to read, if you wish.


12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares. (Romans 2:12-16)
This is the basis of Luther’s admonition that I quoted earlier: "Our faith in Christ does not free us from works but from false opinions concerning works... I please God, not by reason of the merit of my works, but by reason of His merciful favour promised to me; so that, if I work too little, or badly, He does not impute it to me, but with fatherly compassion pardons me and makes me better. This is the glorying of all the saints in their God."


Romans 3

God's Faithfulness:

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. [the training wheels I mentioned]
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”
5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8Why not say–as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say–“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous:

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God. 12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.” 13“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” 15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways, 17and the way of peace they do not know.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith:

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Footnotes:
Romans 3:4 Psalm 51:4
Romans 3:9 Or worse
Romans 3:12 Psalms 14:13; 53:13; Eccles. 7:20
Romans 3:13 Psalm 5:9
Romans 3:13 Psalm 140:3
Romans 3:14 Psalm 10:7
Romans 3:17 Isaiah 59:7,8
Romans 3:18 Psalm 36:1
Romans 3:25 Or as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin

This demonstrates to the Christian believer that, though we have all sinned, we can all be redeemed by grace granted us by our faith in God: that his hand will lead us back to righteousness. All of this was enabled for us by the New Covenant, sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ.


Romans 4

Abraham Justified by Faith:

1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed–the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead–since he was about a hundred years old–and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Footnotes:
Romans 4:3 Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22
Romans 4:8 Psalm 32:1,2
Romans 4:17 Gen. 17:5
Romans 4:18 Gen. 15:5

This passage demonstrates that, according to Christianity, faith is the currency which purchases dispensation and the aid of God in shaping lives and leading them to righteousness, as it did for Abraham, the Father of Nations.


Romans 5

Peace and Joy:

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ:

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned– 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
To my mind, this last passage has parallels in Jeremiah 31:29,30:
“29 "In those days people will no longer say,

'The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge.'

30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes-his own teeth will be set on edge.”
That Christ has died for the Original and collective sins of the world, and also for our individual sins, we may all be saved by our faith in him. But if we are not to enter into that covenant, then our sins alone will be the ones that sink us.


Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ:

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin– 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to everincreasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.This explains why having received God’s grace through faith in the New Covenant, one is not excused from works entirely. He becomes a slave to righteousness. For those who are truly faithful, and place their faith in truth, they will be led by God to good works and deeds in his name. Because faith, as well as works, can be warped to evil purposes, one must be discerning that he believes in the truth, as Martin Luther said, “People must have righteous principals in the first, and then they will not fail to perform virtuous actions.” For a Christian, the source of these principals is the life and teachings of Jesus Christ revealed to us in scripture. That is where we place our faith. To deny scripture and substitute in its place the precepts of man can lead to all manner of evils and even though they may be done in God’s name, they will not be forgotten by him, unless he that has strayed later finds his feet back on the proper path. To find our way, we resort to study of the Book and to prayer. To quote Luther one last time, “Rest in the Lord; wait patiently for Him. In Hebrew, "Be silent in God, and let Him mould thee." Keep still, and He will mould thee to the right shape.”

There is so much more, and my main problem in writing this was to decide what leave out of my post. The fullest explanation can be gained by reading the entire Book of Romans, beyond what I have quoted here, and the writings of Martin Luther on the subject. I hope I have not confused or mislead you as to my beliefs and that this conversation will contribute to our mutual understanding. Thank you for your patience in reading this exceptionally long piece.

mule
03-14-2005, 09:55 AM
HaShem often saves, but a side that christianity likes to ignore is that HaShem also destroys, they like to blame it on Satan (an entity Jesus can't control).

No, SpaceFalcon2001, that is not true. Christians believe that one way or another God will judge sin.

Abdalla
03-14-2005, 10:00 AM
true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible

Sephiroth
03-14-2005, 10:29 AM
true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible
Iustification Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria

By His Grace, by my faith, based on scripture alone, through Christ alone, and only to the Glory of God, I am justified.

To quote what one of my monks has written, that I earnestly believe, "Let every man recognize what he is, and be certain that we are all equally priests, that is, we have the same power in the word and in any sacrament whatsoever." - Martin Luther

Sephiroth
03-14-2005, 10:53 AM
Hitler wasn't neccessarily Christian, but on the other hand he quoted a lot of the works of Martin Luther in support - because Martin Luther was no different in his views, and would have perpetrated a holocaust had he the chance.
Hitler was raised Catholic, and the only reference I have ever seen to Luther from him was in Mein Kampf where he cited him as a great reformer and evidence of German superiority. As for Luther himself, he wasn't perfect, only one person ever has been so, but he wouldn't have perpetrated a holocaust, and yes he did have the chance. He had the ear and the purse of several German princes and those princes did go to war over his doctrine with both papists and heretics. He didn't, however, stir them to pogroms.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 12:43 PM
true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible
Groß, christians don't have rabbis!

Regardless, outside of ****ing people to eternal hellfire (which the average person isn't sure whether this is Jesus or Satan doing this), most christians don't think of "Jesus" killing people.

mule
03-14-2005, 01:26 PM
Abdalla, What do you regard as the true bible? Where is this bible?

root
03-14-2005, 01:31 PM
Regardless, outside of ****ing people to eternal hellfire (which the average person isn't sure whether this is Jesus or Satan doing this), most christians don't think of "Jesus" killing people.

That is an interesting point. An example would be "Natural Disasters", is this God's work or is it "Natural Nature". How do you account for this, science or faith? Recently the news has indicate Yellowstone as an active "Super Volcano" that will destroy most of the US if fully errupted, would this be greeted as "God's punishment on the US" or as a simple natural disaster. When you look at all the disasters the earth suffers (naturally), one could argue that if the Earth was created by intelligent design, it don't work too good does it.

yoshiyahu
03-14-2005, 04:21 PM
true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible

1) There is no such thing as a Christian Rabbi.

2) Such comments don't help the discussion, they only serve as flamebait. I could point at Muslims and say the same thing.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 04:54 PM
:sl:

Thank you Sephiroth. I appreciate your taking the time to write me the response.


I personally don't believe that it does, unless they would have truly repented from their actions. Christianity preaches the forgiveness of sin, but to obtain it you must repent.
After readin your response, i'm still confused over one issue.

There is repentence, and there is sacrifice. Which sins did the sacrifice of Christ remove? Which ones are to be repented for? Is a Christian sinless? Will a true Christian believer be punished for their sins, or didn't Christ remove them?


I, as a Lutheran, believe in the doctrine of iustification solo fide, but the Crusaders, as Catholics, and Hitler, who was baptised Catholic and grew up in Catholic Austria, as well has a little more than half of Germany, did not. Catholicism preaches salvation on the basis of both faith and works.
okay, thanks for pointing out the distinction. :)

What is "justification sole fide"?


Thank you for your patience in reading this exceptionally long piece.
Thank you for writing it. :) I enjoyed it very much.

Sephiroth
03-15-2005, 11:14 PM
Christians see the sacrifice of Christ as the opening of a door, that when a sinner would walk through it (i.e. accept the covenant), all his sins would be forgiven. In this way, if a man has led a wicked life, but later comes to realise the truth of God's word, if he repents and accepts Christ, then his sins are forgiven. Now there is some disagreement between Christian sects whether there might still be punishment for the sinner who has accepted Christ's covenant, or not. Some would say that though a father may forgive his children, he would still punish them. Catholics are basically of the opinion that accepting Christ will save you from an eternity in hell, but if your deeds are grave, you may have to go to purgatory, a place where you are punished and cleansed of worldly sins and flaws. Catholics also believe that even those who are of other religions, who do not accept Christ may go to heaven through their works, if they are good. If I remember correctly, I think this is called "Baptism through works." Baptism is a sacrament (way to Grace), some have called it the Christian version of circumcision, which is somewhat accurate, but I won't get into the problems with that assessment here. The main point remains that some believe even unbelievers can be saved by their works. Others believe that there is only an eternal hell and that accepting Christ saves you from it, but if you continue in sin, then it is evidence that you had not really obtained God's grace through your faith, and that your acceptance was just lipservice and not really valid, and therefore the grave sinner would still go to hell. Still others believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell regardless of your actions, though I don't quite understand the logic of that position. Others still believe that God, because he is omniscient, chose those who would go to heaven at the begining of time and that nothing you can do would change it, but that those who are elect (chosen) would act according to his laws and have great faith: the injunction of these sects is to act as if you are elect, although you may not be. I personally believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell, but that the person who continues in sin gives evidence that he has not truly accepted the covenant. Faith obtains grace, grace sustains faith, and leads to good deeds. One is not made perfect by God, but better, and when he falters, he must repent and pray and let the Lord increase his righteousness.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 12:07 AM
:sl:
Thanks for your post, Sephiroth!

Christians see the sacrifice of Christ as the opening of a door, that when a sinner would walk through it (i.e. accept the covenant), all his sins would be forgiven.
All his previous sins? So for the billions of Christians who are not converts, none of their sins are forgiven?

The son of God was crucified only to remove the sins of a Christian, prior to his acceptance of Chrsitanity? :confused:


So you are telling me that if I accept Christ as my saviour, the sins that I have done are removed, but ALL the remaining sins I commit in my life remain? And my God was crucified for this? I haven't committed any major sins. Accepting Christ as my saviour would make no difference!


In this way, if a man has led a wicked life, but later comes to realise the truth of God's word, if he repents and accepts Christ, then his sins are forgiven.
That is no different from Islam. Once someone becomes a muslim, and he repents for his past sins, he is forgiven. Why does a God have to be crucified for such a small and simple matter?!

The confusion lies over two issues for our sins:
What needs to be repented for?

What needed the sacrifice of Christ?


Now there is some disagreement between Christian sects whether there might still be punishment for the sinner who has accepted Christ's covenant, or not. Some would say that though a father may forgive his children, he would still punish them.
So what on earth did we get out of killing our God?


Catholics are basically of the opinion that accepting Christ will save you from an eternity in hell, but if your deeds are grave, you may have to go to purgatory, a place where you are punished and cleansed of worldly sins and flaws. Catholics also believe that even those who are of other religions, who do not accept Christ may go to heaven through their works, if they are good.
So why the need for God to die for us? Crucifixion is no joke. It is not some minor thing. Getting your flesh nailed to a cross is excruciatingly painful.

And according to Christianity, this wasn't any human getting crucified. This was GOD HIMSELF! WHY?!?

Such a huge event! The crucifixion of the creator of the universe! And it all happened for....nothing?? We never even needed it? We can keep repenting and doing good deeds and still get to heaven?

My Goodness.


Others believe that there is only an eternal hell and that accepting Christ saves you from it, but if you continue in sin, then it is evidence that you had not really obtained God's grace through your faith, and that your acceptance was just lipservice and not really valid, and therefore the grave sinner would still go to hell.
So this group is saying that
-believe in Christ and previous sins are forgiven (no different from a repenter whose repentence is accepted)
-any sins that follow will still be punished even though your God supposedly took all your sins


Still others believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell regardless of your actions, though I don't quite understand the logic of that position.
I'm with you on that one! Perhaps there is no logic to it! ;)

So this position is saying that Hitler and the Crusaders get a free ticket to heaven.

btw, would this position be the one held by southern batptists?
Because in my past discussions, this is the one they held.


Others still believe that God, because he is omniscient, chose those who would go to heaven at the begining of time and that nothing you can do would change it, but that those who are elect (chosen) would act according to his laws and have great faith: the injunction of these sects is to act as if you are elect, although you may not be.
interesting. So according to this position, God getting himself crucified by his creation was for nothing since he had already determined which ones would go to heaven.


I personally believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell, but that the person who continues in sin gives evidence that he has not truly accepted the covenant.
So which sins of yours did Christ take? The ones you made prior to becoming a Christian, or the ones you will make in the future?
Why did God die for us if we still have to repent for our sins and do good deeds? What difference did it make?


One is not made perfect by God, but better, and when he falters, he must repent and pray and let the Lord increase his righteousness.
Compare this with the Islamic position that just says, do righteous deeds and repent for your sins and you will earn paradise. Very simple. Why the need for Christ's death?


See, that is what it all boils down to. I can't understand the Christian doctrine of salvation because no Christian has ever been able to explain to me one point:

Why did Christ die for us?
Which of our sins did he remove?


Because if we still have to repent and do the good deeds we were doing all along before his death, why the need for God to enter the flesh of a man and get crucified on a cross?

I really appreciate your detailed response and your analysis of the different Christian groups.

Thank you. :)

:w:

Burninglight
02-02-2012, 03:25 AM
Hitler was what is known as a wolf in sheeps clothing to the masses. He said, the bigger the lie the apt people are to believe!
:raging:

Ramadhan
02-10-2012, 12:05 AM
Hitler was what is known as a wolf in sheeps clothing to the masses. He said, the bigger the lie the apt people are to believe!

Ah now I know why you keep on making false statements about Islam.

Burninglight
02-11-2012, 12:57 AM
My point root, is not a historical point but rather a theological one.

That Hitler serves as an example of a criminal whom Christian theology promises paradise because of his acceptance of Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

This demonstrates that the doctrine of salvation solely on the basis of faith is flawed. Islam promises salvation on the basis of faith and good deeds.So that was you point? Well, you don't understand Christianity. Salvation by God's grace through our faith is not flawed. It is the only way one can be saved from Hell. When someone has faith it is evidenced by good deeds. As James said: "faith without works is dead" It is possible to have or do good deeds and not have faith, but it is not possible to have faith and God's grace operating in ones live without good works.

It is written in Scripture the soul that sins will die. It is also written that whatsoever a man sows, so shall he reap, and that God is not mocked. If a wicked man truly repents from being a mass murder and turns to Christ he will be saved. A Christian can know now whether he has eternal life. Abu Bakr said to the effect, he would NOT trust the Makr of Allah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. I know as a Christian where I stand with God because of (Jesus) God's gift to me. Muslims don't know where they stand with Allah from day to day. Is this true or not?

If you died right now, do you know if you'll go to paradise? I already know my eternal destiny. My God is not so unjust to not give me an opportunity to know now where I am going to spend eternity. He tells me I can be sure if I meet Him on His terms here and now! I cannot speak for Hitler, but Muslims leaders shook hands with him too. The Catholic Church, imo, doesn't do Christianity justice

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