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Link
03-11-2005, 11:11 PM
:sl:

I want to discuss the different interpetations regarding these words in the Quran and hadiths

I think from what i know, basically, there two views about hands and shin

and maybe 3 different views about throne and chair

may Allah (SwT) help us in this discussion and increase our knowledge about tawheed
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2005, 11:40 PM
:sl:
Good topic. Perhaps you would like to pick a term and verse and we can discuss it from there.

:w:
Reply

Link
03-12-2005, 12:50 AM
:w:

sure bro, i will start with these three verses regarding the arsh

11 7 1 -

11:7

YUSUFALI: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say: This is nothing but clear magic.


69 17 1 -

69:17

YUSUFALI: And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.
PICKTHAL: And the angels will be on the sides thereof, and eight will uphold the Throne of thy Lord that day, above them.
SHAKIR: And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and above ) I them eight shall bear on that day your Lord's power.


20 5 1 -

20:5

YUSUFALI: (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne.
SHAKIR: The Beneficent Allah is firm in power.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-12-2005, 02:11 AM
:sl: Link,

For more info on Allah's attributes refer to http://www.load-islam.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

Our position on this is very simple. Allah swt most certainly has a throne because He has said so. However, the nature of this throne is unknown to us, but of surety it is only what befits His Majesty.

What is your understanding of these verses?
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Link
03-12-2005, 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

I think the main differnces occur here when we say if allah azzawajjal is ABOVE the throne. The sufi's tell the sunnis that the ahle hadith have deviated because the ahle hadith say allah is above the throne. Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.

:w:
:sl:

if saying God physically moved from one place to one place is not itself shirk, and God-forbid i accept this, then Allah (swt) saying he created the earth then rose on the throne, would it not imply that the earth is flat, or did Allah (nauthoballah) expand as he went up?
Reply

Link
03-12-2005, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: Link,

For more info on Allah's attributes refer to http://www.load-islam.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

Our position on this is very simple. Allah swt most certainly has a throne because He has said so. However, the nature of this throne is unknown to us, but of surety it is only what befits His Majesty.

What is your understanding of these verses?
Assalamu alaicom

I will be posting my understanding of them soon inshallah
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-12-2005, 07:06 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Link
:sl:

if saying God physically moved from one place to one place is not itself shirk
Ibn Kathir has explained Istiwa as turned to, as in turning one's attention to something. This is completely acceptable.

then Allah (swt) saying he created the earth then rose on the throne, would it not imply that the earth is flat, or did Allah (nauthoballah) expand as he went up?
No, He ascends, but in a manner that befits His Majesty. You are think of Allah swt as an object movinbg around in this Universe, but Allah swt is beyond the confines of our universe. We don't understand how Allah swt ascends, our minds cannot comprehend such.

:w:
Reply

kadafi
03-12-2005, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

I think the main differnces occur here when we say if allah azzawajjal is ABOVE the throne. The sufi's tell the sunnis that the ahle hadith have deviated because the ahle hadith say allah is above the throne. Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.

:w:
:sl:

Brother, do not differentiate between the Salafis and Ahl al-Sunnah.

The Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sahaabah and the path of the Salaf (the early generations of Islam). These are not two distinct groups, and the Salafis are not a more specific group!

According to the terminology that is well known, the Salaf are the Sahaabah and those who follow their path, and the Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are the ones concerning whom the hadeeth was reported: “Whoever follows the same path as me and my Companions” (The hadeeth about the saved group).

Stirring up disputes and conflict on the grounds of names alone is not permissible. Allaah has commanded the believers to be united and has forbidden them to be divided and warned them against that.

The individual’s aim must be to seek the truth, and when he speaks he should say what is fair and just, and not hate individuals in such a way that his hatred makes him reject the truth that the person is saying, or look for faults in him. He should not come up with things that are ambiguous or far-fetched for that purpose. This is not the way of Ahl al-Sunnah, and the Muslim has to like for his brother what he likes for himself. He must be sincere towards him, and hold love and sincerity in his heart.
Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan (www.islam-qa.com)
Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.
That's correct, Allah (Exalted is He) is above his Throne.

It is proven in the Qur’aan and Sunnah and by the consensus (ijmaa’) of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah that Allaah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that He is the Exalted, Most High. He is Above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or receive admonition)?”
[al-Sajdah 32:4]

Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things [Yoonus 10:3]

“To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it (i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless and until they are followed by good deeds) [Faatir 35:10]
“He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him) [al-Hadeed 57:3]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You are the Most High and there is nothing above You…”

There are many similar ayaat and ahaadeeth. But at the same time, Allaah tells us that He is with His slaves wherever they are:

“Have you not seen that Allaah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), — nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), — nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be” [al-Mujaadilah 58:7]

Allaah has combined mention of His being above His Throne with mention of His being with His slaves in one aayah, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, and what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be[al-Hadeed 57:4]
Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with His slaves by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

- most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

This is the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, who affirm that Allaah is above His creation and that He is also with His slaves, and they state that He is far above dwelling in His created beings. With regard to the denial of all Divine attributes as voiced by the Jahamiyyah and their followers, they deny that His Essence is above His creatures and that He rose above His Throne, and they say that He is present in His Essence everywhere. We ask Allaah to guide the Muslims.


Islam-qa.com
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-12-2005, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by kadafi
Brother, do not differentiate between the Salafis and Ahl al-Sunnah.
Exactly. The salafis are those amongst Ahlus-Sunnah who reject innovation and devitation and adhere to the way of the pious predecessors.

:w:
Reply

Link
03-13-2005, 03:19 PM
:sl:

before i show my view of the arsh, i would like to see your interpetations, of the chair, hands, eyes, shin, in the Quran and hadiths, and also would like to see the interpetation of the hadiths in which states Allah (swt) created Adam in his own image
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2005, 03:23 PM
:sl:

Allah created Adam in his (Adam's) image.

Meaning that Adam was created as an Adult. He was created in the final image without growth.

:w:
Reply

Link
03-13-2005, 03:30 PM
:sl:

here are some hadiths, plz refer to the 2nd one plz

Muslim (2612) narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.”

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him.

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2005, 03:32 PM
This is indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The first group to be admitted to Paradise will be in the image of the moon on the night when it is full.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3327; Muslim, 2834.*

What is the meaning of that hadith? Obviously we won't resemble the moon like some rocks, etc. But the understanding is that it is in terms of radiance and beauty.
Reply

Link
03-13-2005, 03:33 PM
Assalamu alaicom

bro, if u can explain your last post in a greater detail, it would be appreciated, else, i think it would just make things more confusing

(nvm, this post, i was refering to the post previous to the last one before u posted the last one)
Reply

Link
03-13-2005, 03:39 PM
:sl:

all that is left now, is the interpetations, of the chair, hands, eyes, shin, in the Quran and hadiths
Reply

Uthman
03-13-2005, 06:42 PM
:sl:

Yes, we are humans and may never know. The thing is, does it really matter? However, it makes far more sense to take the metaphorical meaning.

:w:
Reply

أحمد
03-13-2005, 07:15 PM
:sl:

Dear fellow muslims, before we start saying that Adam was created in (Na'uoothubillah bin thaalik) Allah's image, we have to look at the hadeeth. The hadeeth is Saheeh, but here there seem's to be an un-necessary mis-understanding. Here's the Hadeeth:

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ عَنْ هَمَّامٍ عَنْ أَبِى هُرَيْرَةَ عَنِ النَّبِىِّ - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قَالَ « خَلَقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ ، طُولُهُ سِتُّونَ ذِرَاعًا ، فَلَمَّا خَلَقَهُ قَالَ اذْهَبْ فَسَلِّمْ عَلَى أُولَئِكَ النَّفَرِ مِنَ الْمَلاَئِكَةِ جُلُوسٌ ، فَاسْتَمِعْ مَا يُحَيُّونَكَ ، فَإِنَّهَا تَحِيَّتُكَ وَتَحِيَّةُ ذُرِّيَّتِكَ . فَقَالَ السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ . فَقَالُوا السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ . فَزَادُوهُ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ ، فَكُلُّ مَنْ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ عَلَى صُورَةِ آدَمَ ، فَلَمْ يَزَلِ الْخَلْقُ يَنْقُصُ بَعْدُ حَتَّى الآنَ

Now the meaning of what image Adam was created in; you'll understand Insha-Allah, if you understand arabic. I'll explain the main statement of it anyway:

خَلَقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ
Allah created Adam in his (Adam's) image, meaning Adam was not created as an embryo, nor was he born.

طُولُهُ سِتُّونَ ذِرَاعًا
At the height of sixty cubits, now it is obvious shirk to give height to Allah, so I hope you understand that the height was Adam's, but not Allah's, just as the image was Adam's; not Allah's.

Anyway, you shouldn't argue on issues which are obviously ones which lead to major sins . . . :zip:

:w:
Reply

Uthman
03-13-2005, 07:22 PM
:sl:

Yeah!

:w:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by Link
Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him.

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh.
The meaning may be Saheeh but not the wording. I think these are inferences based on the first hadeth that Adam was created in his image.

And even if you take it as Adam in Allah's image, that humans reflect a tiny portion of Allah's mercy, power and radiance. Like the moon hadith I showed you.

Anyway, did you want to move on to next topic, or which point did you want to discuss?
Reply

Link
03-14-2005, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The meaning may be Saheeh but not the wording. I think these are inferences based on the first hadeth that Adam was created in his image.

And even if you take it as Adam in Allah's image, that humans reflect a tiny portion of Allah's mercy, power and radiance. Like the moon hadith I showed you.

Anyway, did you want to move on to next topic, or which point did you want to discuss?
:sl:

actually there is very beautiful and informative meaning which is perhaps just a deeper explanation to your answer--I agree with your point but i believe in deeper expansion to that

but i was refering to was that i was waiting for the interpetation of the kursi, hands, eyes, etc. in the Quran and hadith

mainly do u believe Allah (Swt) has hands, eyes, etc.. or do u take the meanings metaphorically
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 06:24 PM
The explanation of that is very simple.

Allah swt has hands, eyes, etc. because He say He does, but the nature of these is unknown to us, so it could very well be metaphorical.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 06:30 PM
Agreed. Yes wording is important.

It all comes down to the verse from Ash-Shura:
There is nothing like Him

And we cannot comprehend His nature.
Reply

Link
03-15-2005, 02:20 AM
:sl:

Meaning of Hands in the Quran

042.030
And whatever affliction befalls you, it is on account of what your hands have wrought, and (yet) He pardons most (of your faults).

Hands meaning: Own will and actions

022.010
This is due to what your two hands have sent before, and because Allah is not in the least unjust to the servants.

Hands meaning: Own will and actions

002.195
And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.

Hands meaning: Own will and actions

008.070
O Prophet! say to those of the captives who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you and will forgive you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Hands meaning: Possession, Control

038.045
YUSUFALI: And commemorate Our Servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Our bondmen, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, men of parts and vision.
SHAKIR: And remember Our servants Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub, men of power and insight.
Hands was changed to power, it is quite obvious that saying possessors of hands holds no meaning

036.071
YUSUFALI: See they not that it is We Who have created for them - among the things which Our hands have fashioned - cattle, which are under their dominion?-
PICKTHAL: Have they not seen how We have created for them of Our handiwork the cattle, so that they are their owners,
SHAKIR: Do they not see that We have created cattle for them, out of what Our hands have wrought, so they are their masters?
So, why do we not take the above verse as in expression when the Quran uses such expression all over? Why would attribute Allah (SwT) hands instead of taking hands metaphorically as in the other verses?

Bro saying that Allah (swt) hands is incorrect, whether you add the phrase in way the befits his majest and there is no one like him, does not matter, there is no reason to assume this case is different and is not an expression

Eyes in the Quran also an expression

032.017
YUSUFALI: Now no person knows what delights of the eye are kept hidden (in reserve) for them - as a reward for their (good) deeds.
PICKTHAL: No soul knoweth what is kept hid for them of joy, as a reward for what they used to do.
SHAKIR: So no soul knows what is hidden for them of that which will refresh the eyes; a reward for what they did.
Clearly an expression

025.074
YUSUFALI: And those who pray, "Our Lord! Grant unto us wives and offspring who will be the comfort of our eyes, and give us (the grace) to lead the righteous."
PICKTHAL: And who say: Our Lord! Vouchsafe us comfort of our wives and of our offspring, and make us patterns for (all) those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil).
Clearly an expression



018.101
YUSUFALI: (Unbelievers) whose eyes had been under a veil from remembrance of Me, and who had been unable even to hear.
PICKTHAL: Those whose eyes were hoodwinked from My reminder, and who could not bear to hear.
SHAKIR: They whose eyes were under a cover from My reminder and they could not even hear.
Over it refers to the eyes of the heart, that is the vision of the heart


So when Allah (swt) says

020.039
YUSUFALI: "'Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him': But I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.
PICKTHAL: Saying: Throw him into the ark, and throw it into the river, then the river shall throw it on to the bank, and there an enemy to Me and an enemy to him shall take him. And I endued thee with love from Me that thou mightest be trained according to My will,
SHAKIR: Saying: Put him into a chest, then cast it down into the river, then the river shall throw him on the shore; there shall take him up one who is an enemy to Me and enemy to him, and I cast down upon you love from Me, and that you might be brought up before My eyes;

Why do we take it out of context and attribute Allah (swt) eyes? Why do we not take this as an expression just the other versions used the word as an expression?


Jenballah


039.056
YUSUFALI: "Lest the soul should (then) say: 'Ah! Woe is me!- In that I neglected (my duty) towards Allah, and was but among those who mocked!'-
PICKTHAL: Lest any soul should say: Alas, my grief that I was unmindful of Allah, and I was indeed among the scoffers!
SHAKIR: Lest a soul should say: O woe to me! for what I fell short of my duty to Allah, and most surely I was of those who laughed to scorn;

It is clear that here jenballah cannot even be possibly taken as literal, the word 'janballah' was not even translated in the above transaltions literally

A hadith that cannot be interpreted literally:

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Ar-Riqaq (To make the Heart Tender)

My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his hearing with which he hears, and his sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks

It is important in gaining knowledge, then one does not interpret things so literally, by doing so, for example, the above hadith would not make sense at all

it is very illogical and silly to take the verses that use metaphors out of context to stating that Allah (SwT) has body parts be it with the phrase 'in a matter the befits him' or beyond our understanding and non-simalar to us, does not change the fact is irrational to say such statements

in a thread that was closed, it was said that someone who rejects such attributes (eyes, hands, etc) is commiting kufr, but there is no logical or rational proof behind this

before going on to the arsh and hadiths about Adam (as), I will wait to see what are the responses to what i just posted
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2005, 03:28 AM
Al-Falah, please respond directly to points instead of pasting articles.

I agree with what you have written, Link. The salafi scholars like Shaykh uthaymeen have described the eyes as "Allah's overseeing". this would be metaphorical.

By agreeing that Allah swt has hands but admitting that we don't know the nature of these hands, this includes the idea that these hands could be references to power, or control.

:w:
Reply

Link
03-15-2005, 05:44 PM
Assalamu alaicom

thanks brother Ansar Al-'Adl and bro Al-Falah for your responses

bro Al-Falah i will do my best to respond to your points aswell to the previous points that i haven't adressed soon inshallah

By agreeing that Allah swt has hands but admitting that we don't know the nature of these hands, this includes the idea that these hands could be references to power, or control.
brother, if the Quran uses hands as metaphorically, there is no reason to assume he does have hands, if you are stating they are references to metaphorical meanings, then yes we are in agreement but again if that is the case. there is no point in stating Allah (SwT) has hands

hands as we know has features and functions, but in arabic it is used also to convey meanings, as shown in the verses of the Quran i previously posted

When u read in the Quran, 'To Allah belongs the keys of the unseen', do we assume that there is a key be it physical or metaphysical, no we take a meaning out of the verse altogether, and no sain person would say there a keys that Allah (swt) has but they are undescribable and do not resemble the keys we know of, cause the verse purpose is not that at all, the meaning of the verse is clear and not one bit confusing, (though the knowledge of it perhaps is)

the words 'keys of the unseen' represent something that no words are better fit then the words Allah (swt) has used to represent it

the verse with 'janballah' has been translated to duty, but the use of 'janballah' gives enphasis on it in arabic which is actually lost in translation, just as the verses 'of whom I created with my hands', the 'hands' is used to give emphasis

Even when scholars talk about jihadal nafs, they say we need a divine hand, say 'divine hand' gives us a more emphasis then saying 'divine help' though and gives a slightly different meaning aswell, I can't explain how but i think you can see that too

just as the Bukhari hadith i mentioned, replacing the words would make it loose its meanings, but at the same time the phrase 'I become the eyes which he sees' cannot be taken literally, yet nothing can replace the words to convery such meaning that was conveyed, the same treatment should be given to all revelation

looking forward to your response

wa salam alaicom wa rahmattallah wa barakatu
Reply

Link
03-15-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

Link? What are you saying? That allah azzawajjal has hands?!! You are lgiving allah, rabb, the creator, with the creations fetures? Astag'firullah.

Please restrict yourself, i am not a admin or a moderator, and i apoligise to kadafi the admin for speaking like i own thism joint, but i think this thread should be closed.

:w:
:sl:

no brother, i am saying the opposite :)
Reply

Link
03-15-2005, 05:59 PM
:sl:

and brother, there is no reason it should be closed even if i was saying so, your duty then would be to teach me if I am wrong or learn from me if I am right
Reply

Link
03-15-2005, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

I apoligise for the mistake, but i still think this thread is a bit on the dangrous side!

:w:
wa alaicom asalam wa rahmattalah wa barakatu

It is dangerous to talk about how Allah (Swt) exists and attempting to define Him or describe Him (cause it is impossible), this is totaly forbiden in Islam for we having nothing past the divine names which are the foundation of all things

however to discuss meanings of verses and fundemental aspects of tawheed, is fruitful and beneficial, and not at all dangerous
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2005, 10:32 PM
:sl: link,
What is your statement on this from Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah:
15.1 ALLAAH HAS TWO HANDS THAT BEFIT HIM.

- Both being from His Attributes that pertains to His Self being in a manner that befits Him.

15.1.1 QUR'AAN: (38):75

15.1.2 HADEETH:

al- Bukhaaree, (Eng.) Vol.9, H515; Muslim (Eng.) Vol. 2., H2179, "The Hand of Allaah is full and gives continuously."

15.2 IT DOES NOT MEAN "POWER" [AL- QOOWAH] OR "BLESSING" [AN- NI'MAH]

15.2.1 IT DIFFERS FROM WHAT IS APPARENT FROM THE TEXTS.

- And there's no proof for these figurative meanings.

15.2.2 THESE MEANINGS ARE IMPOSSIBLE IN THE LANGUAGE.

- As in Arabic, it's impossible to say that "Two Hands" means "Two Powers" or "Two Blessings".

15.2.3 POWER OR BLESSING IS NEVER FOUND IN THE DUAL FORM.

- While Hand is found as dual - i.e. the Two Hands of Allaah.
- So how can the former be meanings for the latter?

15.2.4 IF WE ASSUMED IT DID MEAN "POWER"

- Then referring to (38):75, it could then be correct to say that Iblees was also made by Allaah's Hands [i.e. Power, according to this false belief]. This is absurd!
- And Iblees would have argued against Allaah via this, as he would claim to be the same as Aadam - both being created by His "Power" - according to this false interpretation.

15.2.5 THE HANDS ARE DESCRIBED SUCH THAT THEY CAN ONLY BE HANDS.

- The texts have described a Palm for Allaah [al Kaff] and has affirmed Fingers [al- Asaabi'] and that His Hand Grasps [al Qabd] and Shakes [al Hazz]

- Hadeeth: al-Bukhaaree (Eng.) Vol. 9, H604; Muslim (Eng.) Vol. 4, H6699: "Allaah will grasp the heavens with His Hand and the earth with the other, then He will shake them ..."
How can power have a palm or a finger?
Allah swt has hands that befit His magesty.
:w:
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 01:50 AM
:sl:

yes, Abu Hanifa also says in his Figh Al-Akbar:

4.God knows, but not as we know; He has power, but not as we have power; He sees, but not as we see; He hears, but not as we hear; and He speaks, but not as we speak. We speak by means of the speech organs and sounds, whereas God Most High speaks with neither organs nor sounds. Sounds are created, and the word of God Most High is uncreated. He is a thing, but unlike other things; by saying "thing," we intend merely to affirm His reality. He has neither body nor substance, neither accidental property nor limit, neither opposite nor like nor similitude. He has a hand, a face, and a self (nafs); the mention that God most High has made of these in the Qur'an has the sense that these are among His attributes, and no question can be raised concerning their modality (bila kayf). It cannot be said that His hand represents His power of His bestowal of bounty, because such an interpretation would require a negation of an attribute. This is the path taken by the Qadarites and the Mu'tazilites (two theological sects in early Islam that deviated from the path of Ahl as-Sunna - trans.) Rather, His hand is an attribute, of unknowable modality, in the same way that His anger and pleasure are two attributes of unknowable modality God Most High created things out of nothing, and He had knowledge of them in pre-eternity, before their creation.

http://www.sunnipath.com/Resources/P...R00000245.aspx



But if your a ahlel-hadith, why do u care what scholars say? should u not follow Quran and Sunna? Indeed I already showed how hands are used to show different meanings in the Quran and exactly why hands and other words are not used to replace it

Tell me when Yaqoub (as) told his sons to not to enter one door and to enter many doors where there physical doors for them to enter to?

I would understand if Quran did not at all use metaphors with words, but it does, and it does alot with hands, there are many verses with it regarding allegiance, regarding control, regarding our actions

Tell me do u take the following literal:

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Ar-Riqaq (To make the Heart Tender)

My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his hearing with which he hears, and his sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks...

If not, then why do u take those verses as literal, when they do not even have the apparent meaning of attributing Allah (SwT) hands
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 01:58 AM
Link, I am not supporting the argument because of who said it. Why don't you try to refute his points?
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:02 AM
inshallah, brother, if i didn't already, I will try a different approach, I will accept the meaning and apply to some verses of Allah (SwT) and we will see if it makes sense
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 02:18 AM
Specifically his mentioning the fingers and palm etc.
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:31 AM
Assalamu alaicom

ibn Tayima also say that God has a face, and is one of his attributes (far exalted is God above such claims)

Let us look what the Quran has said

006.052
Send not away those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His face. In naught art thou accountable for them, and in naught are they accountable for thee, that thou shouldst turn them away, and thus be (one) of the unjust.



002.115
And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's face; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.

013.022
Those who patiently persevere, seeking the face of their Lord; Establish regular prayers; spend, out of (the gifts) We have bestowed for their sustenance, secretly and openly; and turn off Evil with good: for such there is the final attainment of the (eternal) home,-

this refers to link between the creatures and Allah (Swt), seeking his light and glory, and it linked to the verses 'Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth... In houses which Allah has premitted to be risen.. Men whom...' in suratal noor


055.024
And His are the ships reared aloft in the sea like mountains.


055.025
Which then of the bounties of your Lord will you deny?

055.026
Everyone on it must pass away.

055.027
But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

The meaning is that that link will remain, so everything directed at Allah (swt) will remain, and everything else shall perish. this also linked to the verses in suratal noor I just mentioned and has to do with 'wahdatal wujood' and the fact that Allah (SwT) will complete the light of the believers

this refers to what Allah (swt) says in his wise reminder:

016.096
What is with you must vanish: what is with Allah will endure...

and

020.131
...and the sustenance (given) by your Lord is better and more abiding.

and to the verses that Allah (swt) will guide the believers to his light and complete them their light

However, if we take the interpetation of ibn Taymiya, then his other attributes hands, self, shin, eyes, are all suppose to dissappear, and Gods face is suppose to remain, such a belief is impossible

therefor, his and Abu Hanifas interpetation contradicts the Quran

I have just applied this meaning to one of the verse, if apply to the other verses, simalar absurd meanings will come about
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq
Specifically his mentioning the fingers and palm etc.
Assalamu alaicom brother, i just saw this post now, i do not what you mean, how can Allah (swt) be attributed fingers and palm now also, does he have finger nails, skin and cells also? surely those are criteria of phsical hands aswell
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:40 AM
As in Arabic, it's impossible to say that "Two Hands" means "Two Powers" or "Two Blessings".
038.045
YUSUFALI: And commemorate Our Servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision.
PICKTHAL: And make mention of Our bondmen, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, men of parts and vision.
SHAKIR: And remember Our servants Ibrahim and Ishaq and Yaqoub, men of power and insight.

'Hands' was translated to power, it is quite obvious that saying possessors of hands holds no meaning, or unless you are suggesting that Allah (SwT) is praising and distinguishing them by giving them two hands, what is unique about this meaning that Allah (swt) should mention such a thing

bro, i hope things are becoming more obviously clear that these meanings are absurd, Allah (SwT) does not have hands, eyes, etc..
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:53 AM
And it does not have to mean power, it could mean he created through Adam though his Will, Glory and Wisdom or even just simply mean that it is God who created Adam (AS) so Iblees (la) should obey God and prostrate to Adam (AS)
Reply

Link
03-18-2005, 02:58 AM
15.2.4 IF WE ASSUMED IT DID MEAN "POWER"

- Then referring to (38):75, it could then be correct to say that Iblees was also made by Allaah's Hands [i.e. Power, according to this false belief]. This is absurd!
- And Iblees would have argued against Allaah via this, as he would claim to be the same as Aadam - both being created by His "Power" - according to this false interpretation.
I do not see how this has anything to do with it, everything to Allah (SwT) is but a command Be and it is

036.071
YUSUFALI: See they not that it is We Who have created for them - among the things which Our hands have fashioned - cattle, which are under their dominion?-
PICKTHAL: Have they not seen how We have created for them of Our handiwork the cattle, so that they are their owners,
SHAKIR: Do they not see that We have created cattle for them, out of what Our hands have wrought, so they are their masters?


So does this mean cows were created superior to Iblees (la) (who was once an angel) according to ibn taymiya
Reply

kadafi
03-18-2005, 11:55 AM
:sl:

The correct aqeedah is that Allah (Exalted is He) has names and attributes. By implyin' a false meanin' to these attributes is an act of deviation.

This is an fatwa regardin' to the hadeeth "Allah created Adam in his image"

Question :
When Prophet says "Allah created Adam in his image" what does "his image" refer to and how should we understand it?.
Answer :
Praise be to Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (6227) and Muslim (2841) narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah created Adam in His image, and he was sixty cubits tall. When he created him he said, ‘Go and greet that group of angels who are sitting and listen to how they greet you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your descendents.’ So he said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alaykum (peace be upon you),’ and they said, ‘Al-salaamu ‘alayka wa rahmat-Allaah (Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah.’ So they added (the words) ‘wa rahmat-Allaah.’ Everyone who enters Paradise will be in the form of Adam, but mankind continued to grow shorter until now.”

Muslim (2612) narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.”
Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him.

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh.

These two hadeeth indicate that the pronoun in the phrase “in His image” refers to Allaah, may He be glorified.

Al-Tirmidhi (3234) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “My Lord came to me in the most beautiful image and said, ‘O Muhammad.’ I said, ‘Here I am at Your service, my Lord.’ He said, ‘What are the chiefs (angels) on high disputing about…’” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

According to the lengthy hadeeth about intercession, it says, “… then the Compeller (al-Jabbaar) will come to then in an image different than the image in which they saw Him the first time…” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 7440; Muslim, 182.

From these ahaadeeth we learn that it is proven that Allaah has an image (soorah in Arabic), in a manner that befits Him, may He be glorified and exalted. His image is one of His attributes which cannot be likened to the attributes of created beings, just as His essence cannot be likened to their essence.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said: “The word soorah (image) in this hadeeth is like all the other names and attributes narrated (in the texts) where the words used may also be applied to created beings, in a limited manner. When these words are applied to Allaah, they carry a unique meaning, such as al-‘Aleem (All Knowing), al-Qadeer (All-Powerful), al-Raheem (Most Merciful), al-Samee’ (All Hearing), al-Baseer (All-Seeing), and such as His creating with His hands, rising above the Throne, etc.” Naqd al-Ta’sees, 3/396

Everything that exists must inevitably have a form or image. Shaykh al-Islam said: “Just as everything that exists must have attributes that, so too everything that exists by itself must have a form or image. It is impossible for something that exists by itself not to have a form or image.”
And he said: “There was no dispute among the salaf of the first three generations that the pronoun in the hadeeth refers to Allaah, and it is narrated through many isnaads from many of the Sahaabah. The contexts of the ahaadeeth all indicate that… but when al-Jahamiyyah became widespread in the third century AH, a group began to say that the pronoun refers to something other than Allaah, and this was transmitted from a group of scholars who are known to have knowledge and to follow the Sunnah in most of their affairs, such as Abu Thawr, Ibn Khuzaymah, Abu’l-Shaykh al-Asfahaani and others. Hence they were denounced by the imams of Islam and other Sunni scholars.”

Naqd al-Ta’sees , 3/202

Ibn Qutaybah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “That Allaah should have an image is no stranger than His having two hands, fingers or eyes. Rather those are readily accepted because they are mentioned in the Qur’aan, but this idea (image or form) is regarded as strange because it is not mentioned in the Qur’aan. But we believe in them all, but we do not discuss how any of them are.”

Ta’weel Mukhtalif al-Hadeeth , p. 221

Shaykh al-Ghunaymaan said: “Thus it is clear that the form or image is like all the other divine attributes. Any attribute which Allaah has affirmed in the Revelation, we must affirm it and believe in it.”
Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed min Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 2/41

Shaykh Ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: There is a hadeeth narrated from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in which he forbids saying “May Allaah deform your face”, and says that Allaah created Adam in His image. What is the correct belief with regard to this hadeeth?
He replied:

This hadeeth is proven from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), in which he said: “If any one of you strikes (another), let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.” According to another version: “In the image of the Most Merciful.” This does not imply resemblance or likeness.

What is meant, according to the scholars, is that Allaah created Adam with the ability to hear and see, and to speak when he wants. These are also attributes of Allaah, for He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He has a Face, may He be glorified and exalted.

But it does not mean that there is any resemblance or likeness. Rather the image of Allaah is different from that of created beings. What is meant is that He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing, and He speaks when He wants, and He created Adam also able to hear and see, with a face and hands and feet. But man’s hearing is not like Allaah’s hearing, his seeing is not like Allaah’s seeing, his speaking is not like Allaah’s speaking. Rather Allaah has attributes that befit His majesty and might, and man has attributes that befit him, attributes that are finite and imperfect, whereas the attributes of Allaah are perfect, with no shortcomings, infinite and without end. Hence Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“There is nothing like Him, and He is the All‑Hearer, the All‑Seer”

[al-Shoora 42:11]

“And there is none co‑equal or comparable unto Him”

[al-Ikhlaas 112:4]

So it is not permissible to strike the face or say “May Allaah deform your face”.

End quote. Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh, 4/226

Another thing that will help to explain the meaning of this hadeeth is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The first group to enter Paradise will be in the image of the moon” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3245; Muslim, 2834.” What the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) meant here is that the first group will be in human form, but because of their purity, beauty and brightness of face they will look like the moon, so they are likened to the moon, but without resembling it. So just because a thing is said to be in the image of a thing it does not mean that it is like it in all aspects.
The Prophet’s words, “Adam was created in His image” means that Allaah created Adam in His image, for He has a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot, and Adam had a face, an eye, a hand, and a foot… but that does not mean that these things are exactly the same. There is some similarity, but it is not exactly the same. Similarly the first group to enter Paradise are likened to the moon, but they are not exactly the same. This confirms the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa'l-Jamaa'ah, who say that none of the attributes of Allaah can be likened to the attributes of created beings, without distorting or misinterpreting, or discussing how or likening Him to His creation.

See Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitah by Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 1/107, 293.

For more information, see: Sharh Kitaab al-Tawheed min Saheeh al-Bukhaari by Shaykh al-Ghunaymaan, 2/33-98, in which he quotes at length from Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him), refuting the misinterpretation of this hadeeth by ahl al-kalaam and those who agreed with them.

And Allaah knows best.
Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)


:w:
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