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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-13-2005, 09:16 PM
:sl:

Here we can discuss the message of Prophet Jesus and what is his true position as each abrahamic religion takes a different stance on him.

We will examine his teachings and prophecies and compare the evidence brought by each group.

:w:
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mule
03-14-2005, 02:06 AM
These are some of the prophecies that Christians hold dear.

  • Gen. 49:10. The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.


  • Gen. 3:15
    14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
    15. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."


  • Isaiah 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.



  • Micah 5:1. And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.


  • Is.11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
    2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and heroism, a spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord.
    3. And he shall be animated by the fear of the Lord, and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge, nor with the hearing of his ears shall he chastise.
    4. And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death.
    5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his loins.


  • Is. 40:3. A voice calls, "In the desert, clear the way of the Lord, straighten out in the wilderness, a highway for our God."



  • Isaiah - Chapter 53
    1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
    2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
    3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
    4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
    5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
    6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
    7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
    8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
    9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
    10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
    11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
    12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.



  • Psalms 22
    1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
    2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
    3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.
    4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.
    5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.
    6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.
    7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.
    8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.
    9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.
    10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.
    11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.
    12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.
    13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
    14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
    15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.
    16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
    17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
    18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.
    19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
    20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.
    21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
    22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
    23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.
    24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.
    25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.
    26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.
    27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.
    28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.
    29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.
    30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.
    31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.
    32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done.


  • Psalms 118:22. The stone that the builders rejected became a cornerstone.
    23. This was from the Lord; it is wondrous in our eyes.


  • psalms 2:7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.


  • Psalms 16:9. Therefore, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.
    10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.


  • zeck. 9:99. Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.



  • Isaiah 52;13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
    1. 14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
    15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.


  • Gen. 49:10. The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.


mule
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 02:16 AM
all are answered at messiahtruth.com
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 02:22 AM
When you get a chance, could you post the refutations?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 02:27 AM
Gen. 3:15
http://messiahtruth.com/gen315.html
Isaiah 7:14
http://messiahtruth.com/is714a.html
Isaiah - Chapter 53
http://messiahtruth.com/isai53a.html
http://messiahtruth.com/isai53b.html
http://messiahtruth.com/isai53c.html
Psalms 22
http://messiahtruth.com/psa22.html
psalms 2:7
http://messiahtruth.com/psal2.html
and so on, and so forth
Reply

mule
03-14-2005, 09:45 AM
There is nothing to refute. They just are.
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by mule
There is nothing to refute. They just are.
Enter groundless acceptance.
Reply

Sephiroth
03-14-2005, 12:48 PM
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
Enter groundless acceptance.
Otherwise known as faith...
Reply

mule
03-14-2005, 01:22 PM
SpaceFalcon2001,

Enter groundless acceptance.
I see no reason why these prophecies should not apply to the messiah. I took them from your bible.

mule
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by mule
I see no reason why these prophecies should not apply to the messiah. I took them from your bible.
As you apparently did not read into the links the unquestionably disprove their relating to Jesus, and you ignore the real verses that apply to the messiah, no one can help you.
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Otherwise known as faith...
In the unreliable NT, sure.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 05:03 PM
Okay, let's add some substance to the discussion.

Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him)

2:136 “Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and that which has been given to Moses and Jesus, and that which has been given to (all) prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him (Allah) we submit.

The Christians say that Christ is the Son of God.
The Jews declare him a blasphemer.

The Muslims stand somewhere in the middle and describe him as a Prophet of God. Is this logical? What does the Qur'an say?

61:6 “And (remember) when Jesus of Mary said: ‘O Children of Israel! Indeed I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Torah (which came) before me, and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad! But when he came to them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.”

For more info: http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...?articleid=121

We believe that he was not crucified but was raised up to heaven. He will return and unite the Christians, Jews and Muslims.
http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

I don't think he was God because the Bible does not describe him as God. It depicts him as a human.

THE BIRTH OF "GOD"


"God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

"God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne." (Acts, 2:30)

The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew, 1:1)

The Sex of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"God" Sucked The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27)

The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king. (Matthew, 2:1)

The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter." (Matthew, 13:55)

The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5) "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34)

The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20)

The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23)

"God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35)

"God" Was a Loyal Subject: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." (Matthew, 22:21) He paid his tax regularly. (Matthew, 17:24-27)

THE FAMILY OF "GOD"

"God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew, 13:54-56)

THE DEVELOPMENT OF "GOD"

Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke, 2:40)

Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man." (Luke, 2:52)

"God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

The Powerless "God" (Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

"God" Was Unlettered: "Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John, 7:14-15)

"God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)

THE TEMPTING OF "GOD"

The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." (Luke, 4:13)

Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15)

True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James, 1:13)

Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14)

THE MISSION OF "GOD"

The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance from sins (Matthew, 3:11).

"God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12)


THE RACIAL "GOD"

"God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5)

"God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."* (Matthew, 15:24)

Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6)

According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." (matthew, 15:26)

The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33)

The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13)

A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD

A Hungry "God": "And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered." (Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28)

A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38)

A Weary "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6)

A Groaning "God": "He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38)

A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept." (John, 11:35)

A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38)

A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33)

A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)

THE WARRING "GOD"

The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tab les."(John, 2:13-15)

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." (Luke, 22:36)

The "GOD" ON THE RUN

"God" Was Panic-Stricken: "After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

"God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand." (John, 10:39)

"God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

THE CAPTURE OF "GOD"

A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God": "And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3)

"God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

"God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67)

"God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said: "Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23)

"God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66)

The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)

THE SUPPOSED END OF "GOD"

The Dying "God": "And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37)

The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John, 19:33)

The Supposed Corpse of "God": "he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58)

The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew, 27:59)

The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47)
A couple of questions to ask...
Is it possible from a Jewish perspective, for Christ to be a Prophet? Remember, we are talking about possibility, not whether he was or wasn't.

Is it possible from a Christian perspective, for Christ to be a Prophet? Remember we are talking about possibility, not whether he was or wasn't.

:w:
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-14-2005, 05:35 PM
Is it possible from a Jewish perspective, for Christ to be a Prophet? Remember, we are talking about possibility, not whether he was or wasn't.
No, because the prophetic era ended before his coming. The prophetic era can only be restored by Eliyahu (Elijah) the Prophet.

Is it possible from a Christian perspective, for Christ to be a Prophet? Remember we are talking about possibility, not whether he was or wasn't.
I believe that in Christianity, Jesus could be considered a prophet since he is said to have done many things that prophets do (and more)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 05:36 PM
No, because the prophetic era ended before his coming. The prophetic era can only be restored by Eliyahu (Elijah) the Prophet.
Can I have the source please?
Reply

mule
03-14-2005, 06:32 PM
Ansar,

Can I have the source please?
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Yoshiyahu,

I believe that in Christianity, Jesus could be considered a prophet since he is said to have done many things that prophets do (and more)
You are correct, Jesus could be.

mule
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by mule
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
How does that negate other Prophets coming?

And you just agreed that Christ could be a prophet according to Christianity.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 06:38 PM
What is the meaning of the word 'Messaiah' according to Judaism? Some Christians assert that Messiah indicates a saviour i.e. Christ
Reply

mule
03-14-2005, 08:28 PM
How does that negate other Prophets coming?
I don't know. I just know that John the baptist was considered a Elijah or Elijah.

And you just agreed that Christ could be a prophet according to Christianity.
The bible does say that Jesus was a prophet. I don't deny that.
Reply

mule
03-14-2005, 08:51 PM
SpaceFalcon2001,

As you apparently did not read into the links the unquestionably disprove their relating to Jesus, and you ignore the real verses that apply to the messiah, no one can help you.
I did glance at your links. I did not even comment on the verses I chose and you are firing rounds at me. As for relating to Jesus why don't you just stick with whether or not they apply to the messiah? I do not ignore the verses that you chose that applied to messiah. I just chose others that I liked that applied to messiah. And I did not realize you were trying to be helpful. You did not comment on some of my verses...........

mule
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
What is the meaning of the word 'Messaiah' according to Judaism? Some Christians assert that Messiah indicates a saviour i.e. Christ
Messiah means annointed, this is usually used in referance to kings who were annointed by prophets.
As for relating to Jesus why don't you just stick with whether or not they apply to the messiah?
Many do not apply to the messiah, and often have been rewritten in the christian bibles to refer to a future time and place to create prophicies.
I just chose others that I liked that applied to messiah.
You can't pick and choose based on which you like, and several even overlap.
You did not comment on some of my verses...
There are hundereds of prophetic verses that christians claim relate to Jesus. There's no need to go and disprove every single one. There are hundereds of verses that Jesus does not begin to qualify for that have long been accepted as verses pertaining to (and specifically mentioning) the Messiah. The fact that Jesus should fail to fulfill even ONE of them is more than enough to say he is not the messiah (and should be proof for any reasonable person), for the when the true messiah comes, there will be no question about his status.
As I posted before:
Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-5)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-14-2005, 10:27 PM
Messiah means annointed, this is usually used in referance to kings who were annointed by prophets.
So can there be more than one messiah? Are there any other messiahs in Judaism? Talut would be an example I suppose. I don't know his hebrew or english name but he was appointed by Shamweel (Samuel?) to fight Jalut (Goliath?) and his army included Dawud (David).
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-14-2005, 10:59 PM
There have been several Messiahs, all kings of Israel (this is why the Messiah needs to BE a king of Israel, you can't annoint someone who's not a king).

So the hebrew word is Moshiach. David was one, Saul was one, Solomen was one, etc...

By the way, David fought goliath before he was actually king.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2005, 12:45 AM
Saul! That was his name (talut)!

Do they have to be a king ruling over Israel? Or just any Jewish King?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Do they have to be a king ruling over Israel? Or just any Jewish King?
They have to be a Jewish king (or a direct decendant of a Jewish king).

This is why the christians spread their ideas about how Jesus was the king of Israel and the decendant of David, even though the geneologies they have in the NT are flawed and could not result in a moshiach.
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mule
03-15-2005, 02:14 AM
They have to be a Jewish king (or a direct decendant of a Jewish king).
Are there people today that are direct decendants?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 02:18 AM
Originally Posted by mule
Are there people today that are direct decendants?
There are many righteous Jews today who are direct decendants of king David.

For example, the lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson (Zt"l) was a proven direct decendant (which is why many Chabad chassidim thought him to be the moshiach in addition to his great Jewish qualities). Several other Rebbes are, there are probbly many Jews who also are that do not know. Those few who do know were usually amazingly able to retain their birth line papers, even in spite of constant oppression.
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mule
03-15-2005, 02:40 AM
That is interesting..

And did you think he was moshiach? Do you have any thoughts about who the moshiach is?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by mule
And did you think he was moshiach? Do you have any thoughts about who the moshiach is?
When he was alive, he was certainly a righteous man, and had the potential to be Moshiach, just as all living Jews who are good and are decended from David have the potential to be Moshiach, but when he died, so ended his running for the position.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2005, 03:03 AM
How will you recognize the mosiach? Is there only one? Or is it a position that certain individuals may qualify for?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 03:58 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
How will you recognize the mosiach?
He will be recognized by that which he accomplishes.
Is there only one?
There can only be The One! :shade: Actually, the moshiach we speak of will be only one who will revolutionize the world into fulfilling the phrophetic criteria of for the Moshaich to restore Israel to it's former glory, but in doing so, he will reestablish the line of kings as well, resulting in many more annointed ones.
Or is it a position that certain individuals may qualify for?
Only certain individuals who fulfill the criteria as stated before, such as "The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d”" (Isaiah 11:2).
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2005, 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
He will be recognized by that which he accomplishes.
That's interesting. So in a sense, the Messiah will only be recognized after he's done his messiah-job. So does this mean that he won't have that his followers will never be sure that he is the messiah until he's done? I'm puzzled as to how this works.

Only certain individuals who fulfill the criteria as stated before, such as "The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of G-d”" (Isaiah 11:2).
I think i didn't make my question clear. Has the messiah already been decreed by God? Has God decreed who it shall be? Or is it a matter open to the Jewish community to 'elect' a Messiah based on who is doing the best work for Israel?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq
That's interesting. So in a sense, the Messiah will only be recognized after he's done his messiah-job. So does this mean that he won't have that his followers will never be sure that he is the messiah until he's done? I'm puzzled as to how this works.
There are MANY criteria as to who is Moshiach. We will only know 100% once he completes the job, but that does not mean he will not gain a following. If he does the easiest parts of the prophecy, no one takes notice, if he fulfills more and more prophesized requirements, people may begin to think he is Moshiach (as with Bar Kokhba, or the lubavitcher Rebbe (Z"l)), but he could complete 99% of the prophecies, and although it would look extremely likely that that man was Moshaich, failing that one remaining percent (i.e. dying before completion of his mission) will tell us that he is not truly Moshiach.
I think i didn't make my question clear. Has the messiah already been decreed by God? Has God decreed who it shall be?
Oh most certainly, otherwise, what would be the point of the prophecies? They are there to let us know when HaShem's Moshiach has arrived so that we should not doubt the true Moshiach.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-15-2005, 05:18 AM
Ok that's what I thought. It just wasn't clear at points.
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mule
03-15-2005, 01:28 PM
SpaceFalcon2001,

How much time are you giving messiah to fullfill every prophesy?

mule
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mule
03-15-2005, 01:50 PM
SpaceFalcon2001,

How well can you read hebrew?

mule
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-15-2005, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by mule
How much time are you giving messiah to fullfill every prophesy?
His lifetime, as I said, when he dies, he is dead, and you can't fulfill any more commandments when you are dead.
Originally Posted by mule
How well can you read hebrew?
As well as most here can read Arabic, is there something you want me to translate?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 12:58 AM
oh, I have something for you to translate, SpaceFalcon!

What is "Servant of God" in hebrew?

and
What is "Son of God" in hebrew?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 01:19 AM
[QUOTE=Ansar Al-Haq]
What is "Servant of God" in hebrew?
Usually the name is Abidel for servant of God.
What is "Son of God" in hebrew?
Ben-El would be son of God. When the plural is issued, as in Beni, this refers to a group of people. Jews are Benei Yisrael, people of Israel.
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mule
03-16-2005, 03:16 AM
His lifetime, as I said, when he dies, he is dead, and you can't fulfill any more commandments when you are dead.
That is not exactly true. In Daniel it talks about the annointed one being cut off.

As well as most here can read Arabic, is there something you want me to translate?
I don't want to be a trouble.
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by mule
That is not exactly true. In Daniel it talks about the annointed one being cut off.
The true Moshiach can't be cut off, by the way cut off doesn't mean death nessicarily. Daniel speaks of a false prophet arising who would confuse many and he would be cut off.
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mule
03-16-2005, 03:38 AM
If you do not believe me then bring out the verse from your bible. Daniel in your bible reads very different.
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 04:00 AM
Originally Posted by mule
If you do not believe me then bring out the verse from your bible. Daniel in your bible reads very different.
Go ahead and bring the verse.
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mule
03-17-2005, 01:13 AM
SpaceFalcon2001,

Daniel 9....
26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.

27. And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

Your bible and mine are vastly different in some very dangerous places. Can you tell me what your bible is translated from? Or maybe the history of it?

thanks,
mule
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2005, 02:33 AM
SpaceFalcon said that Christians translate from greek and Jews translate from original hebrew. (correct me if I'm wrong spacefalcon).
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-17-2005, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq
SpaceFalcon said that Christians translate from greek and Jews translate from original hebrew. (correct me if I'm wrong spacefalcon).
Quite, they translate from the Septuagint.

However in this case, it is simply a misunderstanding of annointed one. Again, Mule, you are confused. Every king is an annointed one.

As written by the great commentator Rashi:
26. And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will be cut off, and he will be no more, and the people of the coming monarch will destroy the city and the Sanctuary, and his end will come about by inundation, and until the end of the war, it will be cut off into desolation.


"And after" those weeks.
the anointed one will be cut off Agrippa, the king of Judea, who was ruling at the time of the destruction, will be slain.
"and he will be no more" Heb. וְאֵין לוֹ, and he will not have. The meaning is that he will not be.
"the anointed one" Heb. מָשִׁיחַ. This is purely an expression of a prince and a dignitary.
"and the city and the Sanctuary" lit. and the city and the Holy.
"and the people of the coming monarch will destroy [The monarch who will come] upon them." That is Titus and his armies.
"and his end will come about by inundation" And his end will be ****ation and destruction, for He will inundate the power of his kingdom through the Messiah, and until the end of the wars of Gog the city will exist.
"cut off into desolation" a destruction of desolation.
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mule
03-17-2005, 09:50 AM
No at the front of the my bibles it says hebrew. How many different kinds of hebrew are there? When was the Septuagint translated?

Why would that prophecy be by king Agrippa. King Agrippa was an unholy man.

I am confused. Do you honor the Dead Sea Scrolls?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-17-2005, 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by mule
No at the front of the my bibles it says hebrew. How many different kinds of hebrew are there? When was the Septuagint translated?
It is a bad translation, done bad on purpose I might add. Jews were basically forced to translate it, so they put errors into it. Then there are additional theological errors christians put in, even in the "hebrew" translations. What is your version?
Why would that prophecy be by king Agrippa. King Agrippa was an unholy man.
But he was still KING And a KING is an ANOINTED ONE.
I am confused. Do you honor the Dead Sea Scrolls?
The dead sea scrolls were not in greek, they were in hebrew.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 12:25 AM
Let's get back on subject here.

What is the proof from Judaism, that Christ was a blasphemer?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-18-2005, 12:27 AM
Any stuff from here: http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2...pic.php?t=1458
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mule
03-19-2005, 10:38 PM
It is a bad translation, done bad on purpose I might add. Jews were basically forced to translate it, so they put errors into it.
I have a hard time believing that the Jews would be that evil to put errors into the text. I think and believe that they would have more respect towards God.

Then there are additional theological errors christians put in, even in the "hebrew" translations. What is your version?
I would like to see what you mean. I don't have a thought on the matter.

i know what the dead sea scrolls are. I am asking you if you believe that the scrolls are reliable?
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-19-2005, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by mule
I have a hard time believing that the Jews would be that evil to put errors into the text. I think and believe that they would have more respect towards God.
Interesting that you put it that way. The reason for altering the translation was so that the whole torah would not be misused by the Pagans (at the time, greeks).

The only authoritative translations that existed for many years were the targums, and they are a bit inclined to say more than is written, usually adding in clarifiers.

The original septuagint was only a translation of the Torah, not of the prophets and writings and that reason is that the Sages would not allow the Prophets and Writings to be translated at that time.

The later translation of Prophets and Writings is practically apocrypha.
i know what the dead sea scrolls are. I am asking you if you believe that the scrolls are reliable?
They are reasonably reliable as historic documents, although they are probbly written to the opinion of the essenes that lived there.
Originally Posted by Anser Al-Haq
What is the proof from Judaism, that Christ was a blasphemer?
Also this: http://messiahtruth.com/sinless.html
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mule
03-20-2005, 02:12 AM
I don't buy it. But if I did it would make me question the honesty of any Jewish translation. How can I trust any Jewish translation if they are afraid I will misuse it?
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mule
03-20-2005, 02:19 AM
nevermind :zip:
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-20-2005, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by mule
I don't buy it. But if I did it would make me question the honesty of any Jewish translation. How can I trust any Jewish translation if they are afraid I will misuse it?
The difference between then and now being that then only the Jews really knew hebrew and would teach hebrew to Jews. It would have been extremely difficult for a non-Jew to learn the actual translation. They just assumed they could force the Jews to translate it for them and that it would be right.
Now there are 2 reasons.
First, anyone can go and learn hebrew (as some christian scholars have to revise their bibles to be more true to the real hebrew text).
Second, permitted translations now exist because of the sheer number of Jews who do not understand hebrew (much like the existance of the aramaic targums for all the Jews because Jews then didn't know hebrew, knowing only aramaic instead).
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-20-2005, 11:05 PM
The article you gave was very interesting, JoeJew.

i would like to discuss it with our Jewish and Christian members.

Part I & II:
********* Background

Why would the concept of a sinless Jesus be of interest to a Jewish person?* In principle, it should not matter to a Jew, since Jesus is irrelevant to Judaism – he is in the realm of Christianity.* The notion of Jesus being without sin is tied to the claim that Jesus died as a sacrificial offering to atone for the sins of humanity.* According to the laws of sacrifice in the Torah, a sacrificial offering had to be without blemish or defect.* Christian apologists and missionaries make the claim that the sinless Jesus satisfied this requirement, and that his "shed blood" covered the sins of mankind just as the blood of animal sacrifices atoned for the sinners in Biblical times.* This claim is a prominent component in the portfolio of Christian missions to the Jews.

This essay addresses the question: Was Jesus Sinless?* Since the analysis compares accounts from the New Testament against specific commands in the Torah, it should be noted that the Scripture in force during the lifetime of Jesus, including the time of his death, was the Hebrew Bible.

II.*********** Jesus and Being Sinless

For Christianity, the purpose of the Four Gospels is to testify that Jesus is the Christ (the messiah) and, as such, his sacred mission was to be the sacrificial offering that would make atonement for the sins of mankind.* Consequently, each Gospel climaxes with a narrative that recounts the historical events surrounding this atoning sacrifice.* According to Christianity, the central core of the Gospels creates the pivotal theme of the salvation brought by Jesus, mediated by the suffering and death of the sinless messiah.* This concept is perhaps best summarized by the following verse from the New Testament:

John 3:16(KJV) - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The giving here refers to the so-called sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross.

Christian theology holds that a sinless Jesus was part of the heavenly Father's plan from the outset, to redeem mankind.* After all, the act of disobedience by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, the Fall of Man, placed the stain of sin on humanity, one that cannot be removed through a person's own actions.* Jesus, the perfect sacrificial offering of the future, was born through the impregnation by the Holy Spirit of a virgin, Mary, who remained a virgin throughout the term of her pregnancy.* Mary gave birth to a child that was not blemished by the stain of Original Sin, since he was conceived of G-d and not through the customary act of copulation by two sinful humans.* Jesus allegedly remained without sin throughout his entire life, since he is said to have perfectly kept all the commandments and, therefore, fulfilled the entirety of the Torah's precepts:

Matthew 5:17-19(KJV) – (17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.* (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.* (19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

With this passage as a backdrop, several accounts in the Gospel of Matthew are examined to test whether Jesus actually lived up to his proclamation.


Going on the premise that the historical Jesus existed, it should not come as a surprise that many statements attributed to him throughout the Four Gospels are consistent with Jewish teachings.* After all, it is likely that Jesus, coming from a family of Pharisees and being exposed to this tradition, held to it and practiced Pharisaic (i.e., Rabbinic) Judaism.* In fact, according to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus acknowledged the authority of Sages and Rabbinic Judaism of his day:

Matthew 23:1-3(KJV) – (1) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,* (2) Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:* (3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. [See also Mk 10:17-19, Lk 16:16-17, Jn 14:21.]



Although Jesus viewed them as hypocrites, he nevertheless acknowledged that the Biblical authority rests in the hands of the Rabbis who, in his day, were the Pharisees.* The Four Gospels appear to indicate that Jesus instruct his followers to stop obeying the (written and oral) commandments.* While he may have had some issues with various aspects of the Law (Torah), it is understood that Jesus did not advocate doing away with it.* On the other hand, a close look at the Four Gospels reveals conduct and teachings ascribed to Jesus, which are at odds with Jewish Law.
I'll give my comments on it soon, insha'Allah.

:w:
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Sinner
03-25-2005, 10:53 PM
I would like to introduce a different line of thought as to why Jesus was more then a prophet. The greater the task, the greater the preparation is involved, we see this all the time. If someone decides to go for a swim at the beach, about all they need a swim suit and some towels. If this same person wanted to explore the ocean two miles deep, then they would need an extraordinary expensive submersible and training in its use. There is a world of difference between the equipment and training involved for the person who goes camping in their backyard and the person who is planning to climb Mount Everest. Now to my point -

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

There has been no other prophet who was born by the power of the Holy Spirit but Jesus. This would strongly indicate that Jesus had a higher purpose for being then any other prophet. The Gospels tells of Jesus higher purpose while the Quran does not. The Quran has Jesus saying the same sort of teachings which it ascribes to all the other prophets. God does not miraculously intervene in human affairs lightly, Jesus would not of had a would not had a miraculous birth if there was no reason to. If all Jesus taught was what Mohammad did, then Jesus have been born just as Mohammad was.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-26-2005, 12:16 AM
greetings Sinner, Let's examine some of your points:

There has been no other prophet who was born by the power of the Holy Spirit but Jesus.
Actually, every human being recieves the Holy Spirit according to both the Qur'an and Bible:

Psalms 104:30 When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth

Now there is a distinction here between the Holy Spirit, who is Angel Gabriel, and the spirit God gives people, which is their soul.

Numbers 24:2 "When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came upon him"


Judges 3:10 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him, so that he became Israel's judge and went to war. The LORD gave Cushan-Rishathaim king of Aram into
the hands of Othniel, who overpowered him."


Judges 6:34 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon, and he blew a trumpet, summoning the Abiezrites to follow him."


Judges 11:29 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites."


Judges 14:6 "The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power so that he tore the lion apart with his bare hands as he might have torn a young goat. But he told
neither his father nor his mother what he had done."


Judges 14:19 "Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. He went down to Ashkelon, struck down thirty of their men, stripped them of their belongings and gave their clothes to those who had explained the riddle. Burning with anger, he went up to his father's house."


Judges 15:14 "As he approached Lehi, the Philistines came toward him shouting. The Spirit of the LORD came upon him in power. The ropes on his arms became like charred flax, and the bindings dropped from his hands."


1 Samuel 10:6 "The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person."


1 Samuel 10:10 "When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying."


1 Samuel 11:6 "When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he burned with anger."


1 Samuel 16:13 "So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah."


Luke 1:35 "The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you (Mary), and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."


Luke 2:25 "Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him."


So if Jesus is GOD because the Holy Spirit came upon him, then the others mentioned above should also be GOD Almighty too.

This would strongly indicate that Jesus had a higher purpose for being then any other prophet. The Gospels tells of Jesus higher purpose while the Quran does not.
And which is more logical? Is it logical that a simple man who never declared himself God but preached the oneness opf God, should suddenly be included in this grand and self-contradicting notion of trinity?

The Quran has Jesus saying the same sort of teachings which it ascribes to all the other prophets. God does not miraculously intervene in human affairs lightly, Jesus would not of had a would not had a miraculous birth if there was no reason to. If all Jesus taught was what Mohammad did, then Jesus have been born just as Mohammad was.
Is the virgin birth proof?

The Qur'an answered this 1400 years ago:
3:59 Verily, the likeness of Jesus before Allâh is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was.

It is like if I asked you that because Prophet Moses spoke to God in person, does this mean he is supernatural?

Or because Prophet Isaac was born to Abraham and Sarah when they were both very old, does this miracle make him supernatural?

Or the birth and blessings upon John the Baptist? Does that miracle make him supernatural?

Or the greatest kingdom was bestowed upon Prophet Solomon, and he communicated with all creatures, does this make him supernatural?

Or the fact that Prophet Muhammad ascended to God and led all the Prophets in this life or the next? Yet he is still no more than a Messenger.

:w:
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Sinner
03-26-2005, 05:36 AM
Now there is a distinction here between the Holy Spirit, who is Angel Gabriel, and the spirit God gives people, which is their soul.
I would disagree that the Holy Spirit is an Angel, but you are correct in saying that the Holy Spirit is a person, and more then just the impersonal manifestation of Gods power. The New Testament makes a distinction between the spirit and the soul, though it does not go into this in detail -

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

This spirit is quite distinct from the Holy Spirit. Jesus taught to receive the Holy Spirit one had to be baptized by the Spirit; be "born again". I should mention that in the Old Testament, when it was said that the Spirit of the LORD came upon someone, it meant that for a brief amount of time, that person was especially empowered by God to do some task. The point I think you missed is that Jesus had no human father as Moses, Isaac or John the Baptist had. A greater distinction beween Jesus and any other prophet could not be thought up if one tried. If there is this wide gulf between Jesus and everyone else, it must of been that God had a greater purpose for Jesus as well.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-26-2005, 05:36 PM
Thanks for your ppost, Sinner.
Originally Posted by Sinner
The point I think you missed is that Jesus had no human father as Moses, Isaac or John the Baptist had.
That is true, but I pointed out their birth because it was also miraculous.

But I did give you an example of a birth without a father (infact without a mother as well), and that was the birth of Adam pbuh and the birth of Eve.

And the Qur'an clearly says that the likeness of Jesus pbuh in the sight of God is that of Adam.

Besides, these distinctions do not account for superiority as I mentioned other distinctions in my previous post which you failed to answer.

A greater distinction beween Jesus and any other prophet could not be thought up if one tried. If there is this wide gulf between Jesus and everyone else, it must of been that God had a greater purpose for Jesus as well.
no, not necessarily. I am not convinced that this distinction elevates his status. Other prophets were also favoured as I pointed out before.

In fact, Prophet Jesus himself said:
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist (Matthew 11:11).

But John the Baptist was also humble. He did not claim that greatness for himself. He spoke of a greater one who was to come after him. He is quoted as saying:
After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie (Mark 1:7)

So the Prophets never claimed this kind of superiority. This is the work of human beings who attribute to Prophets what they did not teach.

Don't you find it a little strange that this huge doctrine of Christ's divinty was never explicityl mentioned by any of the Prophets? Don't you find it strange that you have to base this entire doctrine of the inferences made from a few verses in the later passages of the Bible?
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Burninglight
02-18-2012, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by mule
These are some of the prophecies that Christians hold dear.
  • Gen. 49:10. The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.

  • Gen. 3:15
    14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
    15. And I shall place hatred between you and between the woman, and between your seed and between her seed. He will crush your head, and you will bite his heel."

  • Isaiah 7:14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.

  • Micah 5:1. And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah-you should have been the lowest of the clans of Judah-from you [he] shall emerge for Me, to be a ruler over Israel; and his origin is from of old, from days of yore.

  • Is.11:1. And a shoot shall spring forth from the stem of Jesse, and a twig shall sprout from his roots.
    2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, a spirit of wisdom and understanding, a spirit of counsel and heroism, a spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord.
    3. And he shall be animated by the fear of the Lord, and neither with the sight of his eyes shall he judge, nor with the hearing of his ears shall he chastise.
    4. And he shall judge the poor justly, and he shall chastise with equity the humble of the earth, and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth and with the breath of his lips he shall put the wicked to death.
    5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faith the girdle of his loins.

  • Is. 40:3. A voice calls, "In the desert, clear the way of the Lord, straighten out in the wilderness, a highway for our God."

  • Isaiah - Chapter 53
    1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
    2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
    3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
    4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
    5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
    6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
    7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
    8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
    9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
    10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
    11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
    12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

  • Psalms 22
    1. For the conductor, on the ayeleth hashachar, a song of David.
    2. My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? [You are] far from my salvation [and] from the words of my moaning.
    3. My God, I call out by day and You do not reply, and at night I do not keep silent.
    4. But You are holy; You await the praises of Israel.
    5. Our ancestors trusted in You; they trusted and You rescued them.
    6. They cried out to You and they escaped; they trusted in You and they were not shamed.
    7. But I am a worm and not a man; a reproach of man, despised by peoples.
    8. All who see me will mock me; they will open their lips, they will shake their head.
    9. One should cast his trust upon the Lord, and He will rescue him; He will save him because He delights in him.
    10. For You drew me from the womb; You made me secure on my mother's breasts.
    11. Upon You, I was cast from birth; from my mother's womb You are my God.
    12. Do not distance Yourself from me, for distress is near; for there is none to help.
    13. Great bulls have surrounded me; the mighty ones of Bashan encompassed me.
    14. They opened their mouth against me [like] a tearing, roaring lion.
    15. I was spilled like water, and all my bones were separated; my heart was like wax, melting within my innards.
    16. My strength became dried out like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my palate; and You set me down in the dust of death.
    17. For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.
    18. I tell about all my bones. They look and gloat over me.
    19. They share my garments among themselves and cast lots for my raiment.
    20. But You, O Lord, do not distance Yourself; my strength, hasten to my assistance.
    21. Save my soul from the sword, my only one from the grip of the dog.
    22. Save me from the lion's mouth, as from the horns of the wild oxen You answered me.
    23. I will tell Your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You.
    24. You who fear the Lord, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, honor Him, and fear Him, all the seed of Israel.
    25. For He has neither despised nor abhorred the cry of the poor, neither has He hidden His countenance from him; and when he cried out to Him, He hearkened.
    26. Because of You is my praise in the great congregation; I pay my vows in the presence of those who fear Him.
    27. The humble shall eat and be sated; they shall praise the Lord, those who seek him; your hearts shall live forever.
    28. All the ends of the earth shall remember and return to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall prostrate themselves before You.
    29. For the kingship is the Lord's, and He rules over the nations.
    30. They shall eat all the best of the earth and prostrate themselves; before Him shall all those who descend to the dust kneel, and He will not quicken his soul.
    31. The seed that worships Him; it shall be told to the generation concerning the Lord.
    32. They shall come and tell His righteousness to the newborn people, that which He has done.

  • Psalms 118:22. The stone that the builders rejected became a cornerstone.
    23. This was from the Lord; it is wondrous in our eyes.

  • psalms 2:7. I will tell of the decree; The Lord said to me, "You are My son; this day have I begotten you.

  • Psalms 16:9. Therefore, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.
    10. For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You shall not allow Your pious one to see the pit.

  • zeck. 9:99. Be exceedingly happy, O daughter of Zion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold! Your king shall come to you. He is just and victorious; humble, and riding a donkey and a foal, the offspring of [one of] she-donkeys.

  • Isaiah 52;13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.
    1. 14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"
    15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

  • Gen. 49:10. The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples.

mule
Good job, yes we do hold these Scriptures dear. Without them we wouldn't as much of argument
Reply

Burninglight
02-18-2012, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
But John the Baptist was also humble. He did not claim that greatness for himself. He spoke of a greater one who was to come after him. He is quoted as saying:
After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie (Mark 1:7)

So the Prophets never claimed this kind of superiority. This is the work of human beings who attribute to Prophets what they did not teach.

Don't you find it a little strange that this huge doctrine of Christ's divinty was never explicityl mentioned by any of the Prophets? Don't you find it strange that you have to base this entire doctrine of the inferences made from a few verses in the later passages of the Bible?
It is not strange to me. I find it strange that you cannot see that John was considered the greatest of all prophets next to Jesus. But if John was the greatest prophets and was not worthy to tie Jesus sandel, then, how great is Jesus? Jesus is the Prophet of prophets; Lord of lords. He is the last Adam. It is written, "Kiss the son lest you perish from the way when His wrath is kindle but a little"
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
A greater distinction beween Jesus and any other prophet could not be thought up if one tried. If there is this wide gulf between Jesus and everyone else, it must of been that God had a greater purpose for Jesus as well.
I absolutely believe this to be true.
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-18-2012, 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by Burninglight
It is not strange to me. I find it strange that you cannot see that John was considered the greatest of all prophets next to Jesus. But if John was the greatest prophets and was not worthy to tie Jesus sandel, then, how great is Jesus? Jesus is the Prophet of prophets; Lord of lords. He is the last Adam. It is written, "Kiss the son lest you perish from the way when His wrath is kindle but a little"
I absolutely believe this to be true.
Noah, Abraham and Moses were greater Prophets than John the Baptist.

You say Jesus is the lord of lords? You said previously that you only worship the father as he is the lord of lords and now you are giving this title to his alleged "son".

You also said you do not make up anything that is not from the Bible then what does God and Jesus state that Jesus is the "lord of all lords"? Where does God and Jesus state that Jesus was the last Adam?

You are making things up which were never taught by God or Jesus. You keep contradicting yourself. You also have admitted that you dont understand why you would worship the son but you df o anywsy even though God and Jesus never even mentioned nor taught such a thing. Why do you believe random men whos origins are unknown (gospels) over the words and teachings of God and Christ.

You will not have any excuses on the day of judgement when you will face the wrath of your creator for worshipping other than him. That is unforgivable in the eyes of God and monotheism was taught by EVERY Prophet from Adam to Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh). They all had the same message to their people which was to establish the true oneness of God.

The paganistic concept of God manifesting himself as "3" was NEVER taught by any Prophet, nor was it taught in the explicit words of God or Jesus but you would rather believe such blasphemys by referring to random men in the Gospels who had never met nor had anything to do with Jesus or God.

The truth and falsehood are clear but you are too blind to see reality.
Reply

Burninglight
02-18-2012, 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Noah, Abraham and Moses were greater Prophets than John the Baptist.
No
Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
You say Jesus is the lord of lords? You said previously that you only worship the father as he is the lord of lords and now you are giving this title to his alleged "son".

You also said you do not make up anything that is not from the Bible then what does God and Jesus state that Jesus is the "lord of all lords"? Where does God and Jesus state that Jesus was the last Adam?
Paul calls him the last Adam. I can say the same to you. Show me where Allah says "say not three" Just like you believe that Muhammad was inspiried by Gabriel so the apostles were inspiried by God, So anything the disciples of Jesus wrote it is like God said to us. Paul was an apostle of Jesus by divine revelation!

It is written: "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are being saved, it is the power of God"
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-18-2012, 06:24 AM
Originally Posted by Burninglight
No
Paul calls him the last Adam. I can say the same to you. Show me where Allah says "say not three" Just like you believe that Muhammad was inspiried by Gabriel so the apostles were inspiried by God, So anything the disciples of Jesus wrote it is like God said to us. Paul was an apostle of Jesus by divine revelation!

It is written: "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us that are being saved, it is the power of God"
Was I not clear enough when I asked you to provide proof from the WORD AND TEACHINGS OF GOD AND JESUS. Not from a man who never met Jesus nor had anything to do with him. It is clear that whenever you are asked for proof you can only cite unauthentic unreliable sources like the gospels because none of your false beliefs are backed up by the words and teachings of God and Christ.

How can you compare Paul to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)? Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)recieved divine revelation (the Quran) which is a true miracle and scholars confirm that not one contradiction, incon sd istency or adfitions or deletions can be found and the original language is always there for vetification. He was also given Prophethood. He is CLEARLY mentioned in the Quran as God commanded us to follow his way as he is the perfect example unto mankind.

Whereas Paul had nothing to do with Jesus nor did he ever directly meet him. Paul is NOT mentioned ANYWHERE in the words and teaching of Jesus or God. So there is no compulsion on any Christian to follow a random man who is merely a self proclaimed Prophet. There is NO comparison at all.
Reply

Burninglight
02-18-2012, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Hamza Asadullah
Was I not clear enough when I asked you to provide proof from the WORD AND TEACHINGS OF GOD AND JESUS. Not from a man who never met Jesus nor had anything to do with him. It is clear that whenever you are asked for proof you can only cite unauthentic unreliable sources like the gospels because none of your false beliefs are backed up by the words and teachings of God and Christ.
I thought you meant prove it with Scripture
Reply

Ramadhan
02-20-2012, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by Burninglight
I thought you meant prove it with Scripture
Prove it using Jesus (pbuh) ACTUAL words.

you cannot do that, can you?
Reply

Hamza Asadullah
02-20-2012, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by Burninglight
I thought you meant prove it with Scripture
Scripture = The word and teachings of God and the Prophet of the scripture NOT the word and teachings of random men whos identities and the books were written at an unknown time in history.
Reply

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