Forgiveness

[POBook]

Salam to all of you:)

"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power."

Al-Qur'an, 005.038 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Why are these people to be punished? Why are they to be punished in this fashion?

[hidaayah]

Assalam u Alaikum..
its so that the crime is discouraged and people don't do it again..
wassalam

[Rabi'ya]

Assalam u Alaikum..
its so that the crime is discouraged and people don't do it again..
wassalam

:sl:

I would say that the warning would discourage people frmo doing it in the first place also.

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

[afriend]

Yes....if there was no warning system......what would stop them from doing the same thing over and over and over again.....there is a limit on how much you can forgive a person...how many times did Musa (AS) forgive his people?

But they still rebelled

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[POBook]

Salam Fozley,

Thank you for your reply. My question is this: Why not simply have mercy and forgiveness on the guilty person?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Salam to all of you:)
Why are these people to be punished? Why are they to be punished in this fashion?

Hello POBook,

First of all, we had a long discussion about Islamic criminal law in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ariah-law.html

Allow me to quote something I posted on this topic:

2. Punishment for theft. I believe that cutting off someone's hand is barbaric. Simple as that.

A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:
a-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect
b-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is below something of great value -> determined by 'urf (customs of society)
c-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty
d-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)
e-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system
f-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress
g-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned
h-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spuse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imaam Malik.
i-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)
j-according to Imaam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-muslim living in the muslim state, however Imaam Shafi', Imaam Maalik and Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.

If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions recieves ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.

Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:

At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

"I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.
But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."

The Saudi Delegation resumed:

"In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver. Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?
...Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a gurad.
...Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their luves of their possessions.

(Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)

Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un heard of.

Callum, I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!

Which law is more successful?

Why not simply have mercy and forgiveness on the guilty person?

First of all, if you read the verse in context you would have noticed that mercy and forgiveness are mentioned in the very next verse!

5:39 But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful.

So if a thief repents and returns the goods before he is caught, then he will not be given the prescribed punishment.

As for forgiveness and mercy, I hope you realize that a society will not be able to function without implementing a penal system. One of the major functions of society is to preserve justice and order and protect its citizens.

Lastly, to put things in perspective, let's talk about some of the punishments prescribed in the Bible. In Exodus 21:5-6 a slave who wishes to stay with his master is to be placed against a doorpost and have his ear pierced with an awl. In Exodus 21:20-21 if a master beats his slave, whether male or female, and they die immediately he will be punished but if they survive a day or two he will not because they are his property.

Regards

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al-Adl

It is good to talk with you again. Thank you for your reply.

"But whosoever repents after his crime and does righteous good deeds (by obeying Allâh), then verily, Allâh will pardon him (accept his repentance). Verily, Allâh is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful."

As I was reading this verse in the Qu'ran, I understood it to mean how you explained it in context with the previous verse. The reason I still asked my question, is if someone did not repent before the punishment was administered, they received the punishment. In addition to this:

"If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation."

I appreciate the detail you provided concerning this verse in the Qu'ran. My concern lay not so much in the verse itself, but rather in the principle of this verse: If a law is legitemately broken, it receives a legitemate consequence. Now, if a law has been established and someone is legitemately guilty of breaking that law, why does the judicial system simply not show mercy and forgiveness to the guilty party, and let them go?

Again...thank you for your continuing dialogue;D

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook,

I appreciate the detail you provided concerning this verse in the Qu'ran. My concern lay not so much in the verse itself, but rather in the principle of this verse: If a law is legitemately broken, it receives a legitemate consequence. Now, if a law has been established and someone is legitemately guilty of breaking that law, why does the judicial system simply not show mercy and forgiveness to the guilty party, and let them go?

The most obvious reason would be that a legal system that fails to implement punishments cannot function. Punishments are a necessary aspect of maintaining societal order by making criminals accountable for their crimes.

Regards

[michaela]

agreed - i would find it hard to find any legal system anywhere that has in its books "have mercy and let them go". no matter what the punishment is, i would find a more convincing argument to be - why does it have to be hand amputation, but i believe that has been well covered here - just my two cents.
-peace

[akulion]

salam alaikum

If we are to read a Book Called "Crime and Punishment" its a sociological book but I dont remember the author - but its very famous and the premier in the research conducted on Crime and Punishment systems around the world.

The books says that punishments such as "jailing" only produce more criminals and in contrast punishment systems which are very harsh such as amputation or whipping of the person actually help prevent crime!

So sociology is in support of the Islamic Criminal System :D

[michaela]

salam,

i find this very interesting - something that seems quite harsh and 'cruel and unusual' to some, is actually quite a bit more rational and just. in western legal systems, you are given little to no chance for repentence - allowing a guilty party to repent is probably more merciful than most legal systems. i'm still learning about all of this but i just found this quite interesting - something that began as a criticism, i believe has turned around into something much different.
-peace

[akulion]

Well the thing the book points out after conducting years of research is a fact we cannot deny:

People who are usually jailed come in contact with other criminal elements inside the jails. As a result of which a Stagerring 80% of jailbirds come out hardened criminals! With links to gangs and even more contacts in the criminal world. Also the jails take away any hope from the person because their lives are wasted away in jail cells

Now In Islam we have the punishments which deal a final blow to the whole issue and let the individual move on with the rest of their life.

- Serious Theft :
Option A: Cut off the hand
Option B: Forgive
Option c: Community service
Option D: Reimburse the person who was stolen from

- Murder :
Option A: Behead the murderer
Option B: Forgiveness
Option C: Blood Money paid as compensation on request of victims family

So Islam gives options and also something important to note is that before punishments are carried out in Islam - the case has to be argued to finality! That is the reason why 'circumstantial evidence' is not permissible in cases in Islamic courts because it is based on conjecture.

[michaela]

Well the thing the book points out after conducting years of research is a fact we cannot deny:

People who are usually jailed come in contact with other criminal elements inside the jails. As a result of which a Stagerring 80% of jailbirds come out hardened criminals! With links to gangs and even more contacts in the criminal world. Also the jails take away any hope from the person because their lives are wasted away in jail cells

I live in Canada, and now because a girl was shot in downtown Toronto, they are considering implimenting manditory minimums (ie if you're caught with a gun, you get an automatic 2 yr sentence - that's a example, i don't know exact time lines). Anyway, I had a conversation about it with several people and it just doesn't make sense to us. Yes, you want people to understand that having a gun is wrong, but more importantly, in my opinion, is we should want to get people to not want to shoot each other anymore. Shoving some poor black kid in jail because the government spent more money on sending them to jail rather than helping them out of the state they are in, is just mindboggling. I agree 100% that putting people (esp. young people) into prison without any real rehabilitative programs just makes them more hardened and allows them to network with other criminals.

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and peace:

I'm a Canadian too, East Coaster. I agree somewhat with what you said. I think we need to spend more on education rather than incarceration, however, that being said, I also feel our laws are toooooo lax. We need to be more consistent with punishment for serious crimes and the Young Offenders Law, needs to be abolished. It's not teaching the kids to take responsibility.

Just to mention, I'm a Canadian revert, so if you have any questions please don't hesitiate to ask, or come on down for some chicken something something. lol

Wasalam and peace
Hana

[akulion]

hey chicken something something is copyright lol

The harsh measure taken in Islam to many crimes is actually seen in action in Saudia Arabia - did you know it has the lowest crime rate ?

Not to mention on Fridays when people leave for prayers everyone leaves their shops open and unattended!! Yet no theft takes place.

Now thats the effects and their evidence!

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

I own the copyright. :okay:

Yeah, akulion, I agree absolutely.

I've seen the pictures and heard the stories of the bars of gold displayed in the open, gold chains, etc. You would never see that here, and for good reason. lol

Wasalam
Hana

[michaela]

hana, thank you - i may have some questions for you - i am seriously trying to learn more about islam as i am trying to find some answers about life. however, to keep on topic, i agree there are many problems with the young offenders act. i think there should definitely be more action taken to people that start gangs or head gangs as they are more of the problem - they corrupt the youth in under-privileged areas... also, i hate to be broken record of common complaints but i find it hard to understand laws where someone can steal $500 because they're hungry or have a drug addiction (possibly a result of being outcasted from society) and they could go to jail for years - and someone who steals millions from poor seniors (in the US for example) and get off almost scotch free - unbelievable if you ask me

[michaela]

ahhh you guys are too fast for me... haha

yes i agree it is amazing that places that are condemned for their legal practices, have such well-behaved citizens - i would also like to point out, although i'm sure it was done before when it happened - that the US is in the same bracket of deaths from the state as many of the countries they condemn for it (Saudi Arabia, China, etc, etc)

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Yes, I agree Michaela. The problem is that they just keep creating new laws instead of revamping the old ones. The ones that should be behind bars are running loose on the street getting the kids to do the drug sales, etc., because they know with the Young Offender's Act, nothing happens to the kids. For the kids, it's fast money....they don't see the addiction that will surely follow and in turn leads to a life of crime. We need to come up with laws that not only protect the innocent, but will punish the guilty and provide help for those who need it.

Our laws are just not consistent here. Rape will get you anything from probation to life....depends on the judge. It's crazy. What I love about the Shariah Law is that the crime and punishments not only fit, they are just and they are the same for everyone.

Wa'alaikum salam and peace
Hana

[akulion]

Another interesting thing to note is the actions of the Anti-Capitalist movement and their portests.

The Capitalists groups hold their meetings in many countries every year...

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in NY and riot police had to be called out

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in London police had to be called out to contain them

At theri meeting venue The Anti Captilist group protested in France and riot police had to be called out to chase them away

in the year 2004 the meeting was held in Bahrain - not a single anti capitalist protestor went, their leader was interviewed on BBC and I still remember laughing when I heard what he said. He was asked why they did not go to protest against them in Bahrain? His reply was, "Are you crazy? those people chop off hands and heads, no ones gona risk going there!"

Lol so strict punishments scare the people as well to obey the law :D

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al'-Adl

"The most obvious reason would be that a legal system that fails to implement punishments cannot function. Punishments are a necessary aspect of maintaining societal order by making criminals accountable for their crimes."

This is my next question: Did GOD not implement a "legal system" in this world? Did He not implement a "legal system" of morals and ethics that every person at some point or another has broken? When you look around world, how much "societal order" is truly in effect? By nature, surely the human race, are breakers of the societal laws that GOD has written on the heart of every living person? Does GOD not need to hold each and every one of us accountable? And when He does, what punishment is He going to implement on us?

[POBook]

Hello Akulion, Hana Aku, Michaela,

You all looked like you had a great discussion. Tell me if I am correct on the following summary:

1. Yes punishment is real and existent, though in different forms
2. Strickter forms of punishment seem to have better affect on criminals
3. Constant new laws don't seem to change people much

Also:

- Serious Theft :
Option A: Cut off the hand
Option B: Forgive
Option c: Community service
Option D: Reimburse the person who was stolen from
- Murder :
Option A: Behead the murderer
Option B: Forgiveness
Option C: Blood Money paid as compensation on request of victims family

Once again, let me ask this question: Why punish people who do wrong, no matter what wrong they may do? Part of my profession is in counseling people. I have learned that one of the root causes for many major forms of conflict lies in our unwillingness and inability to forgive people who have committed crimes against us or against our families. We seem to feel better when someone has been beheaded, blood money has been paid, a prison time hs been served, or a simple fine has been paid. Retribution is part of society and human nature. I also want to ask this question: Have we sinned against GOD and dishonored Him in some way or another? Unfortunately, many people feel they have never sinned against GOD. What must this Holy, Righteous Judge of mankind do with us and our breaking of His commands?

Thanks again for your contribution to this discussion;D

[akulion]

We do not live in a utopian society - thus is illegal activities and crimes went unpunished - eventually we would find a lot of corruption and safety of life itself would become threatened because anyone could just decide to murder and not be punished at all..

Law is there for a reason - lawlessness is not something God commands

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

I also worked with "Hard Core Youth" for a few years. I truly loved these kids and wanted, more than anything, to see them successful. (Alhamdulillah, we had an 88% success rate in our program :D )

That being said, the one thing I refused to do was allow them to make excuses. If they did the wrong they had to take responsibility for it. For example, if my son does something wrong that is worthy of punishment, I will punish him, but it doesn't mean I don't love him or won't forgive him. Of course I do, but he needs to learn that there are consequences to his actions.

If you look at our system of theft.....the punishment is anywhere from a slap on the wrist to a couple years in prison. Not much of a deterant. Your chances of not going to prison are pretty good. So, does the person learn? Usually not, they are now free to do it again and again and again. Finally, the time will come when they end up in the prison system. Let's assume, this person is male for the purpose of this discussion. If this man was the provider for his family and goes to prison, his family suffers with no support, children away from their father, spouses apart. Society will ultimately have to support them through social services and society is supporting this man in prison. Will he be reformed when released....statistics say highly unlikely. Within the system they learn to get better at what they do and the crimes become more serious.

Now, look at the Shariah Law. The punishment for theft is clear so there is no question as to what will happen to you should you decide to commit the crime. Let's assume the man was proven guilty and the punishment was carried out. This man is still able to provide for his family, society is not supporting them, society is not supporting him in prison, he will not be kept away from his family and the chances he will re-offend? Slim to none.

So, you can't just look at the punishment and say it is not just or barbaric, it is far deeper than that. There are very good, logical reasons for the Shariah Law, we just have to be willing to investigate further than just the actual punishment itself.

I hope this gives a clear explanation. :)

Take care, wasalam and peace,
Hana

[TrueHeart]

totally true, I like how you put.Shariah Laws always has good, reasonable and logical punishment so that it's best for everyone. Shariah Laws thinks about everyone involved and not just the the criminal

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum sister:

Yes, you're right, it goes a lot further than just the act of punishment. Imagine if you were considering stealing a gold bracelet and someone walked by that made the same attempt and got caught. I'm quite sure you'd think twice before stealing a bracelet with the chances you wouldn't have a wrist to wear it. It's proven that the Shariah Law works, unfortunately, most people only look at the surface.

Before I reverted I had a lot of opinions about the Shariah Law. I felt it was barbaric and cruel, etc. Then a brother took the time to go through each of my "opinions" one by one, and I was so shocked to learn how just and logical these laws are. I learned to have a great respect for the Shariah Law long before I reverted.

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana

[akulion]

People dont THINK about the consequences and effect of crime!!

For example one true story from my young days from my grandparents neighbourhood

Someone took away a bag from a lady on gun point as she was trying to catch a taxi and the woman begged the man not to take it because it contained all her money which she had taken from the bank to have her son treated

he didnt listen and took it anyways
The poor woman was left with nothing and would have lost her son and also her house and have been on the street, but the people all gathered and helped her out so everything was ok

As for the theif I'll be DAMNED if he shows up and tells me his sins are forgiven by God because God loves him Thats just BS - crime has really hard hitting tragedies on peoples lives and that is why God will do justice with those who violate his commandments and hurt other people and God will not forgive these violaters until those victims forgive him first!

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

Yeah, akulion, you're right they don't think of the effects of crime.

My house was broken into about 15 years ago and I haven't been the same since then. Prior to that I looked forward to coming home, felt safe... no concerns. Now, 15 years later, when I come home (particularly after dark), I still feel anxious and nervous. It's a feeling that will never leave me.

It's not just the actual crime itself, it's what it does to the victims. These people stole far more than money and material things from me. Those things can be replaced, but my feeling of security cannot.

Oh, and these people were never caught, but according to our laws, even if that had been caught, they wouldn't be charged with break and enter and theft. They would have only been charged with possession of stolen property, a much lesser crime. :hmm:

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana

[akulion]

Yea I know what you mean
My house was broken into too and they held us all on gunpoint and then locked us in the kitchen when they were leaving

As a result my mother and father who are old still worry everytime I say I am going out at night time after 9PM and not only that since that day we had to have a security system installed in our house which costs us money every month for security!

Theives definately deserve their hands cut off!
Its not harsh at all - they refuse to move their hands and steal from the hands of others who worked so hard with their hands - so definately their hand should be cut off and then they should think...if i steal again the second hand goes too!

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook

This is my next question: Did GOD not implement a "legal system" in this world?

The latest and final legal system God revealed was that given to Prophet Muhammad saws, although it is similar to that of Prophet Moses in many ways.

Did He not implement a "legal system" of morals and ethics that every person at some point or another has broken?

There is on one hand, a legal system which governs society as a whole, and on the other hand there is a spiritual/moral system which governs each individual. The penal system is in place only to govern the former.

When you look around world, how much "societal order" is truly in effect?

How many places have inplemented the comprehensive system of life as prescribed by Islam?

By nature, surely the human race, are breakers of the societal laws that GOD has written on the heart of every living person?

Depends what you are referring to. Do we each make mistakes and commit sins? Yes, but we can repent. But do we each murder, rob and rape? I certainly hope not, because that is NOT in our nature.

Does GOD not need to hold each and every one of us accountable?

Yes He does, but that does not mean that we shouldn't implement a legal system for the protection and preservation of society.

And when He does, what punishment is He going to implement on us?

There are punishments in this life, in the grave, and in the hereafter. May God protect us from these punishments and guide us on the straight path.

If I may comment one what you wrote in a later post:

1. Yes punishment is real and existent, though in different forms
2. Strickter forms of punishment seem to have better affect on criminals

This is not true from an Islamic perspective. One mistake people have is that when they think of Sharî'ah law, they think it is only penal law. No, in reality, Sharî'ah law is a comprehensive system, not just involved in implementing criminal punishments.

Take murder for example. I do not say that the answer to rising murder rates is to simply implement capital punishment and then relax epecting to see the rates go down. This will not happen, and this is not what Sharî'ah law entails. The reality is that Sharî'ah law is a comprehensive system which combats societal issues from all different perspectives. So it not only places a deterrent in place, but it also extinguishes the various factors that lead to murder. For example, in the west we find that with every new movie, video game or tv show that comes out, the level of violence that is tolerated increases and society becomes desensitized to violence. The secular lifestyle that is promoted is "live life to the fullest" and it removes the spiritual aspect of life that entails restraining one's desires, being considerate of others before thinking about one's personal pleasure. Sharî'ah law provides the comprehensive solution once again. It does not allow the spreading of immorality and violence through the media and it focuses the individual on controlling their personal desires, including anger. It removes murder for money and theft by instituting the zakât (charity tax). It implements mandatory period of prayer (Salât) five times a day, when one can focus on their relation with God and reflect on improving themselves. So it combats murder on a variety of levels, not just through a harsh deterrent.

3. Constant new laws don't seem to change people much

The laws we should implement are those that are in accordance with the revelation from the All-Knowing Creator, not those that are in accordance with the whims of society.

Regards

[sumay28]

The laws of this country (look where i'm from), doesn't really seem to be scaring anyone strait anyway. I've had a criminal history. The only thing a person has to be scared of is going through the long stress of court fees, jailtime, etc. You go through it, you hope it doesn't happen again, and then you keep breaking the law. If I even thought that stealing something can result in me getting my hand cut off... NO WAY!!! I would have been strait as an arrow!!! Allah knows best...

[Tasneem]

Salam to all of you:)



Why are these people to be punished? Why are they to be punished in this fashion?

Its a warning

Its harram to steal and if someone knows the punishement then im sure they wont do it

But you also have to look at why they stold

Were they poor?

Did someone have something that they wanted and the person knew but did'nt give it to them?

So even with this you have to judge accordingly

SaLaMz

[POBook]

Hello Ansar Al'-Adl,

There are punishments in this life, in the grave, and in the hereafter. May God protect us from these punishments and guide us on the straight path.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I agree, there are punishments in this life and in the hereafter. Each of us need GOD to guide us on the straight path. How and why should GOD protect us from punishments if He is the one to implement them, particularly in the hereafter?

There is on one hand, a legal system which governs society as a whole, and on the other hand there is a spiritual/moral system which governs each individual. The penal system is in place only to govern the former.

If the penal/legal system governs society as a whole, what is the spiritual/moral system that governs each individual? Just like us humans, whom GOD created, have a penal system, surely GOD also has a penal system.

I realize I may be repeating myself here, but to me this is sooo important. GOD is truly Merciful. GOD is also truly Just. GOD is also truly Holy and Righteous. Some people focus only on GOD and His mercy. Other people focus only on GOD and His justice. We cannot ignore either of these character traits of GOD. How can you combine mercy and justice? There is only one way.

Peace to you:)

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

POBook, I don't understand where you are confused by this. We ask God to protect us from these punishments by keeping us on the straight path. We have free will so He can guide, but ultimately we decide what path we will take to make it to our destination. If we take the straight path we will be protected from punishment, should we faulter and choose a different course, then we must be responsible for the choices we make and be accountable for them.

One of the beauties of Islam is that it is a complete way of life. It provides everything we need to live in society, from teaching high morals to punishment for wrong doing/criminal activity. ie We are taught how to interact with all people, how we should handle confrontation, treat our neighbours, etc. It not only tells us we should not commit crimes, but provides the required punishment. These punishments are just and are meant to be the same for all people. The Shariah Laws in Islam are meant to govern us both socially and morally. So yes, God has already provided us with everything we need in society, including a penal system.

Man created and implemented new laws and punishments that are outside the teachings of Islam, but to live in a society outside a truly Islamic state (of which there are none, by the way), we must adhere to those laws or we find ourselves in trouble.

I may be wrong, but I think that because Christianity holds this concept that Jesus, pbuh, will take away your sins, many don't have the sense of taking responsibility for the mistakes they make. Whereas in Islam, we, as individuals, are accountable for everything we do. I don't mean that to say that just because we are Muslims we have some degree of superiority. All faiths teach the importance of maintaining a high moral standards, but I think the difference comes in when we look at the expectations on the Day of Judgement. Christians believe that having strong faith will be enough to save them. Muslims don't believe that just because we call ourselves Muslims it will be enough to save us from hellfire. This is something we must strive for and to do that we must adhere to the teachings and practice that is laid out for us as a guide. This guide has been provided to us from God in the form of the Holy Qur'an.

May Allah, swt, guide us all and keep us on the straight path. Ameen

Wasalam and Peace
Hana

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello POBook,

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. I agree, there are punishments in this life and in the hereafter. Each of us need GOD to guide us on the straight path. How and why should GOD protect us from punishments if He is the one to implement them, particularly in the hereafter?

By 'protect us from these punishments' I meant that we pray God guides us so that we do not recieve them. So when we pray that God protects us from the fire of Hell, we mean that we pray to God to guide us on the truth, to increase our faith, to enable us to perform righteous deeds and avoid evil, all in order that we do not recieve the punishment of hell.

God has given us a system of life that will allow us success in this world and the hereafter. Many of the laws are based on the practical needs of society and vital for society to properly function. This is true of the legal rulings that we have discussed, specifically the penal law. Other laws are part of the struggle we take to bring us closer to God, such as prayers, sacrifice, etc.

If the penal/legal system governs society as a whole, what is the spiritual/moral system that governs each individual? Just like us humans, whom GOD created, have a penal system, surely GOD also has a penal system.

God does not have a 'penal system' because He does not have a society to protect as we do. He does have punishments, but those are absolute punishments for those who performed evil in this life.

When we speak of God's punishments we are discussing a totally different concept. Here we are looking at life as a whole, and the purpose of life. God has placed us human beings on earth for a limited period of time. We are here with a purpose: to serve and worship God with our love and devotion and to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. Those who do good in this life will be rewarded, while those who do evil will be punished.

I realize I may be repeating myself here, but to me this is sooo important. GOD is truly Merciful. GOD is also truly Just. GOD is also truly Holy and Righteous. Some people focus only on GOD and His mercy. Other people focus only on GOD and His justice. We cannot ignore either of these character traits of GOD.

Who says we are ignoring a trait here?

How can you combine mercy and justice? There is only one way.

I realize that you are trying to use this to lead in to the Christian doctrine of atonement or Christ's sacrifice, but it isn't going to work this way. If you want to discuss atonement, let's be open about it and then we'll have a much more productive discussion then beating around the bush.

Regards

[POBook]

Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

He does have punishments, but those are absolute punishments for those who performed evil in this life.

If these people performed evil in this life then performed good, does the good work they do nullify the evil they did:? ?

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Something we don't always remember is that the love and mercy of Allah, swt, is far greater than His wrath.

If someone did wrong, constantly did wrong, then turned in sincere repentence to Allah, swt, and continued to live his life as we are commanded by Allah, swt. I'm very sure that person would be forgiven. But, if you die in a state of doing evil, it's too late for repentence. So, you will live in the hereafter in anyway Allah, swt, wills. Only He knows your heart and only He can judge.

We can't tell you that YES, this man will absolutely be forgiven. We can't know that. We can't see what's truly in his heart, we can't see what his intentions are. Do we BELIEVE that he will be forgiven if he sincerely repents....definitely. In one saying of the Prophet Mohammed(sa) he told us that God ordained it that his mercy shall prevail over his anger.

Wasalam and Peace
Hana

[POBook]

Salam Hana_Aku,

I appreciate your feedback. I know this is where Christians and Muslims are very different in their thinking. Do you not think, however, to say that Allah's mercy prevails over his anger is to say that we are safe, even if we sin? Is that not to say that it's OK to do what we want, whether it pleases Allah or not? If his mercy outweighs his anger, then it's OK for bad deeds to outweigh good deeds and everyone is going to heaven.

[*Hana*]

Salam Hana_Aku,

I appreciate your feedback. I know this is where Christians and Muslims are very different in their thinking. Do you not think, however, to say that Allah's mercy prevails over his anger is to say that we are safe, even if we sin? Is that not to say that it's OK to do what we want, whether it pleases Allah or not? If his mercy outweighs his anger, then it's OK for bad deeds to outweigh good deeds and everyone is going to heaven.

Peace POBook:

No, absolutely not. Unlike Christianity, we don't believe that someone else is going to absorb our sins. We are each responsible for your own. We cannot sin, repent, make the same sin again, repent....etc. We cannot be 100% certainly who will go to Jannah. As I mentioned, only Allah, swt, knows our heart. Not everyone will repent, not everyone will live long enough to repent or change their ways. That's why we must live every day like it's our last and worship Allah, swt, the way we are commanded.

Yes, of course His mercy outweighs His anger which is why we believe He will forgive us if we come to Him with all sincerety asking Him to forgive. There is no guarantees in this life or the hereafter. Allah, swt, is the sole judge of what we do. I cannot tell you that you will go to Hell for absolutely certaintly....that is not knowledge given to me. I can only tell you that based on what I do know, Shirk is an unforgiveable sin, and if you die in that state, chances are you will be headed for Hellfire.

You can't live thinking it's ok to break His laws over and over and by simply being a Muslim, Christian or Jew, that's it's enough to enter Paradise. Where is the logic in that? Paradise is something to be earned not taken for granted.

Wasalam and Peace
Hana
:sister:

[POBook]

Greetings once again Hana_Aku,

Thank you for your feedback.

Unlike Christianity, we don't believe that someone else is going to absorb our sins

We do not believe anyone else is going to absorb our sins. Jesus absorbed the payment of sin.

We cannot sin, repent, make the same sin again, repent....etc

This is not true Christianity. True Christianity has no desire to sin anymore. Yes, people will still sin, but this is not the desire of their heart.

Paradise is something to be earned not taken for granted

I really admire all those who, in GOD's eyes, are good enough to have earned paradise. I know that as much as I love GOD, if it was left up to me and my efforts to enter paradise, I would never be able to match the standards of a Holy and Righteous GOD. If it was simply up to me, then paradise would have nothing to do with GOD's mercy. It would be about my abilities and I would never go to paradise.

[*Hana*]

Peace POBook:

First, let me apologize for all my spelling mistakes in my last post. lool I was running out the door and was typing very fast. :-[

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "payment of sin" compared to absorbing your sin?

The fact is, as Jesus, pbuh, Himself said, no one can pay for the sins of others. So regardless of the words used the end result is the same. You will be judged only by what YOU do or don't do.

Please don't misunderstand what I meant about sinning, repenting, sinning, etc. I never meant that Christians want to sin. I think most people don't want that. However, the Christian believes that their strong faith in Jesus, pbuh, is enough to get them into Heaven. It leaves the door wide open for making excuses or dismissing sin. Whereas in Islam, there is no free or easy "ticket" to paradise and the doors are not open to excuses or dismissing sins. If you commit them, you own them. :)

Having strong faith and showing up at the Mosque 5 times a day for prayer and doing nothing else, while sinning in between, will not necessarily be enough. We can see a seemingly pious person praying faithfully, giving to charity, etc., but we don't know their heart, their sins, what he asked forgiveness for and what Allah, swt, has forgiven. The fact is, we will not know who will enter Paradise. This is only known by Allah, swt. The best we can do is live by what He commands us and knowing on the Day of Judgement, we will all answer for our deeds....good and bad.

Who is actually "worthy" of paradise? What makes one "worthy" over another. We can't possibly know that because we don't have access to all the knowledge necessary to determine that.

But, be sure of one thing, no one except you alone. will answer for your sins on that day.

Peace,
Hana

[POBook]

Salam Hana_Aku,

First, let me apologize for all my spelling mistakes in my last post. lool I was running out the door and was typing very fast.

No problem at all.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "payment of sin" compared to absorbing your sin?

I might be a little picky here, but to me a correct understanding is important. To absorb my sin suggests that Jesus took my sin away from me. He did not take the sin away--I still make mistakes; I still commit sins--not intentionally--but I'm a human being in the flesh. What Jesus absorbed was the penalty of my transgression against GOD. He took my place so that I did not have to deal with the consequences of my transgression.

The fact is, as Jesus, pbuh, Himself said, no one can pay for the sins of others.

In Matthew 26:27-28 we read, "Then Jesus took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to His disciples, saying, 'Drink from it all of you. This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" You see, the old covenant between between GOD and the Jews was that of animal scarifices. Because of sin, sacrifices needed to be made. But we must understand that the old covenant of animal sacrifices was put in place to pave the way to the new covenant. Animal sacrifices were simply not good enough to cover the cost of people's sin. That is why GOD came to this earth in the form of Jesus Christ. He was getting ready to be sacrificed on the cross; to have His life and blood shed for the forgiveness of our sins. Please understand that when Jesus referred to the cup as His blood, it was not his physical blood. He had not yet been crucified. It was simply red wine, a symbol of His blood. People were being encouraged to remember the sacrifice Jesus paid on the cross for their sins.

However, the Christian believes that their strong faith in Jesus, pbuh, is enough to get them into Heaven.

Let me say that many times--in fact most of the time--our faith is very, very weak. If relying on my faith got me to heaven, I would be in serious trouble. In Matthew 17:19-20 we read, "Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, 'Why couldn't we drive the demon out?' Jesus replied, 'Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.'" Jesus was trying to point out just how weak our faith is. Strong or weak faith does not get me to heaven or keep me from heaven.

It leaves the door wide open for making excuses or dismissing sin

You are very right. Unfortunately many people try living life like this. But this is not true Christianity. In Christianity, their is a real change of heart. Our number one desire is to please GOD and live in obedience to Him--not because we are afraid we might be punished, but because we truly love Him and have given our hearts and our lives to Him.

Whereas in Islam, there is no free or easy "ticket" to paradise and the doors are not open to excuses or dismissing sins. If you commit them, you own them

May I exhort you to think carefully about this--and I say this with respect, please know that: In Islam there is no free or easy ticket to paradise. If you commit sins, you own the. In Christianity, there is the free gift of eternal life in paradise offered. You do not have to earn it and work hard for it. You do not have to have your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds. You do not have to live with the uncertainty of where you will spend eternity. In Christianity, GOD Himself came to this earth and payed the penalty for our transgression. He has forgiven all people of all sins they ever committed, commit, or ever will commit. He has the right to offer this forgiveness to us as a gift. We simply have to accept it. He took ownership of our transgression and cast them from Himself as far as the East is from the west. What a mighty, awesome, and loving GOD!!

But, be sure of one thing, no one except you alone. will answer for your sins on that day

Through His wonderful love for me, Jesus already answered for my sins.

Thank you again for your feedback. I want to respect you and your beliefs, so I hope a I share in a respectful manner:)

[M H Kahn]

Forgiveness is for the righteous:

Forgiveness is for the righteous who believe in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Books and the Prophets, and spend wealth out of love for Him on relatives, orphans, helpless, needy travelers, those who ask for and on the redemption of captives; and establish Salah (prayers), pay Zakah (alms), fulfill promises when made, be steadfast in distress, in adversity, and at the time of war. These people are the truthful and these are the pious.[2:177]

:hiding:

[POBook]

Greetings M H Kahn,

Forgiveness is for the righteous:

What is there to forgive in righteous people:? ? If righteous people are righteous, surely there is nothing to forgive!? What if you do not do all the things listed in Sura 2:177?

Sincerely,

[M H Kahn]

A human being is likely to commit minor sins and sometimes even greater sins unwillingly or at the instigation of the Satan even if he is righteous. As defined in the Quran, the righteous believe in Allah, the Last Day, the Angels, the Books and the Prophets, and spend wealth out of love for Him on relatives, orphans, helpless, needy travelers, those who ask for and on the redemption of captives; and establish Salah, pay Zakah, fulfill promises when made, be steadfast in distress, in adversity, and at the time of war. You would now perceive that even the righteous may commit sins and if they repent and seek forgiveness of Allah, they are likely to be forgiven.

You may also look in the Quran:

** If you shun the great sins which you are forbidden, We will do away with your small sins and cause you to enter an honorable place of entering.[4:31]

** Call on your Rabb with humility and in private;for He does not love the transgressors. [7:55]

** Pray to Him with fear and hope. Surely the mercy of Allah is always close to those who do good to others.[7:56]

** Whatsoever good ye send before you for your souls, ye will find it with Allah, better and greater in the recompense. And seek forgiveness of Allah. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.[73:20]

You would perceive that every human needs Allah's mercy and forgiveness.

[POBook]

Greetings M H Kahn,

Thanks for your response:)

You would now perceive that even the righteous may commit sins and if they repent and seek forgiveness of Allah,

What does Allah do to righteous people who continue to commit sins and seek his forgiveness? How long will Allah keep doing this?

they are likely to be forgiven.

To say they are "likely" forgiven suggests that the offender or sinner cannot be 100% sure that he or she is forgiven; they their is no 100% guarantee of forgiveness. Am I right?

You may also look in the Quran:

** If you shun the great sins which you are forbidden, We will do away with your small sins and cause you to enter an honorable place of entering.[4:31]

Does this mean that it's OK to do lots of small sins?

Sincerely,