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kadafi
03-24-2005, 07:05 PM
Peace!

A brother on an another inspired me with this idea of askin' the non-muslims why they reject Islam https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2005/03/teeth-1.gif

What are your reasons that enables you not to embracing Islam?

Thanks in advance!

Uthman
03-24-2005, 07:29 PM
:sl:

Yeah, thats a good question.

Instead of asking 'Why do you not accept Islam' ask 'Why do you reject Islam'? Which is kinda different as the intelligent ones amongst us will have gathered . . . :)

:w:

Sinner
03-25-2005, 08:10 AM
As a Christian, it is not so much a case of rejecting Islam as it is accepting the Biblical Christ. There is a leap of faith involved but it is not a blind one. Islam provides a version of Jesus which is opposed and opposite to that of the Gospels. Logically both may be wrong but both can not be right. Accepting the Christ and message of the Bible, means automatic rejection of other claims.

root
03-25-2005, 11:13 AM
Islam is nothing more than a religous beleif the same as Judaism and christianity but in a slightly different flavour.

Brother_Mujahid
03-25-2005, 12:29 PM
Islam is nothing more than a religous beleif the same as Judaism and christianity but in a slightly different flavour.
yes the slight difference in flavour being islam was the latter being the last and final message to the whole of mankind.

the similarity being they all came from the same god.

Brother_Mujahid
03-25-2005, 12:31 PM
As a Christian, it is not so much a case of rejecting Islam as it is accepting the Biblical Christ. There is a leap of faith involved but it is not a blind one. Islam provides a version of Jesus which is opposed and opposite to that of the Gospels. Logically both may be wrong but both can not be right. Accepting the Christ and message of the Bible, means automatic rejection of other claims.
i dont understand, you accept the prophets that came before isa (jesus peace be upon him) yet you reject the prophet which came after. likewise the jews rejected two which proceeded the former.

i still don't understand how the conclusion that isa (as) was sent as a prophet and was taken to be the son of god or god himself. (astaghfirullah)

mansio
03-25-2005, 01:53 PM
Although I would be satisfied with the Muslim definition of God, I could never accept the Quran which is too much of a compilation of Middle-Eastern religious traditions, which contains verses I would be ashamed to ascribe to God, and which is sometimes written in a rather bad literary style.

Brother_Mujahid
03-25-2005, 01:56 PM
Although I would be satisfied with the Muslim definition of God, I could never accept the Quran which is too much of a compilation of Middle-Eastern religious traditions, which contains verses I would be ashamed to ascribe to God, and which is sometimes written in a rather bad literary style.
seems you have a problem with the translation

Genius
03-25-2005, 02:54 PM
Although I would be satisfied with the Muslim definition of God, I could never accept the Quran which is too much of a compilation of Middle-Eastern religious traditions, which contains verses I would be ashamed to ascribe to God, and which is sometimes written in a rather bad literary style.

Is this the English translation because i very much doubt the classical arabic version can be described as bad?

mansio
03-25-2005, 03:43 PM
Don't misunderstand me. I said the style of the Quran is SOMETIMES bad, not always.
In many instances the style is magnificent and that would be enough to rank its author among the great writers.
We are discussing about a book supposedly written by God. That book should be perfect from beginning to end as God is perfect.

Brother_Mujahid
03-25-2005, 03:47 PM
Don't misunderstand me. I said the style of the Quran is SOMETIMES bad, not always.
In many instances the style is magnificent and that would be enough to rank its author among the great writers.
We are discussing about a book supposedly written by God. That book should be perfect from beginning to end as God is perfect.
true

so what imperfection do you see in the quran (it could just be a misunderstanding on your behalf)

Sinner
03-25-2005, 05:40 PM
i dont understand, you accept the prophets that came before isa (jesus peace be upon him) yet you reject the prophet which came after. likewise the jews rejected two which proceeded the former.

The Prophets spoke of Christ -

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures,

What the disbelivers had to say of Jesus -

Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

What the Angel had to say -

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What the devils had to say -

Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

What Jesus disciples had to say -

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood
hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

What the Scribes said -

The scribes standing by ask: "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" Jesus responds: "the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Luke 21, 24).

Jesus says he is the Lord of the Sabbath, that is to say, God -

Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


yet you reject the prophet which came after Many prophets came after Jesus, he warned that they would, it is just a question of which ones one is willing to accept or reject.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Paul writes -

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If Paul was so wrong about Jesus, why did the Apostles accept Paul as one of their own and claimed that his writings were Scripture? Was Jesus such a bad prophet that he choose disciples who would distort his own teachings and accept false teachers within a few years after he was gone? I don't think so.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-25-2005, 05:41 PM
Mansio,
I'd be very interested to know which verses you find difficult to attribute to God.

Sinner,
Actually, the Islamic view of Christ as a Prophet is a stronger message in the New Testament, than the view that he is God.
I'd be happy to discuss this with you in the thread on Christ in the three abrahamic faiths.

:w:

Umm Yoosuf
03-25-2005, 07:58 PM
Very intresting topic.

Yes I'd like to know too Mansio :)

mansio
03-25-2005, 10:58 PM
Here are a few verses that shocked me :

2-228)... but men have precedence over them (the women)...

4-34)... and those (women) you fear their rebellion, admonish them, leave them alone in their rooms and beat them...

23-1) How happy the believers 5) who guard their chastity 6) except with their wives or their slave-girls...
[ The latter actually written the "belongings of their right" which means the slaves or captives a Muslim can acquire at war (his right hand holding a weapon) or on a market (his right hand holding a purse) ]

5-33) Such is the reward of those who make war against God or against his Messenger, and of those who spread corruption on the earth : they will be killed or crucified, or their hands and their opposite feet will be cut off, or they will be expelled from the country...

18-85) (Dhû l-Qarnayn) followed a way. 86) As he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a boiling (or muddy) spring...

67-5) We have adorned the sky of the world with lamps, with which We made what is needed to pelt the devils...

Some childish stories from Jewish folktales about Solomon listening to ants, sending birds into battle, or from Christian stories about Jesus making birds of clay, speaking from the cradle ...

I would spend two or three days quoting all of them.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-25-2005, 11:43 PM
Thanks for your post, mansio. I think you understood these verses, you would see that they are not that difficult at all.

In some cases, after I explain them to you, you may find that it was the translator who did not do an accurate job, in other cases it may be a simple matter of not understanding the tafsir (exegesis) of the verses.


2-228)... but men have precedence over them (the women)...

4-34)... and those (women) you fear their rebellion, admonish them, leave them alone in their rooms and beat them...
both of these are explained here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1071

Let me briefly mention some points:
The first verse you quoted:
2:228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; and men have a degree (of advantage and protection) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise

1. The meaning of Darajat and Qawwamun in this sense is quite obvious. Men have been given physical strength and energy, which enables men to guard women against some of the dangers to which they may be exposed in society and to take care of some of their needs. But the Qur'an explictly states that men and women are equal:

I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)

2. There two interpretations of the word IDRIBUHUNNA: one is to leave them, the other is to beat them
Even if we accept the second interpretation, there are some important points to be observed:


n this connection, it must be immediately noted that there is no warrant here in this verse for wife battering. The suggestion to use beating is made specifically to deal with nushuz on the part of the wife, that is, to deal with her deliberately nasty behavior that poses a threat to the marriage. Beating is to be done after due admonition and suspension of sexual relations and therefore by husbands who have some moral standards and have sufficient control over their sexual passions. Moreover, this beating is not to go on and on but is to be tried as a last step to save the marriage. Once it is clear that it is not working it is to be abandoned in favor of some other steps involving relatives of the husband and the wife mentioned in the next verse (4:35). There is therefore, absolutely no license here for the type of regular and continual wife beating that goes on in some homes, where each time the husband is angry with his wife or with someone else he turns against her and beats her up. In most such cases, the husband has no moral superiority over the wife: the only rule of Shari'ah that he cares about is this suggestion about beating. He also does not have the kind of control over his sexual passions needed to separate the wife in bed and often beats her the day before or the day after making love to her, an action specifically condemned by the Prophet.(4)


In regard to the suggestion about beating, the following further points should also be noted:


a)*According to some traditions the Prophet said in his famous and well-attended speech on the occasion of his farewell pilgrimage that the beating done according to the present verse should be ghayr mubarrih, i.e. in such a way that it should not cause injury, bruise or serious hurt. On this basis some scholars like Tabari and Razi say that the beating should be largely symbolic and should be administered "with a folded scarf" or "with a miswak or some such thing". However, it is not clear how such a beating can help overcome nushuz* of the wife, a point that supports the first meaning of dharb. If dharb is translated as "beating", as most commentators do, then "beating" should* be effective in its purpose of shaking the wife out of her nushuz. This means that it should provide an energetic demonstration of the anger, frustration and love of the husband. In other words, it should neither seriously hurt the wife nor reduce it to a set of meaningless motions devoid of emotions.*As for the argument that the Prophet intensely disliked beating, we can say that his intense dislike was for the type of beating done outside the limits set down by God.*


b)*The wife has no religious obligation to take the beating. She can ask for and get divorce any time. The suggestion applies only in the case when the husband is seriously disturbed by a prolonged nasty behavior on the part of the wife but neither he nor the wife is as yet seriously thinking of breaking up.


c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Qur'an and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her. In our view the saying attributed to the Prophet on the authority of `Umar that a husband will not be asked on the day of judgment about why he beat his wife is not a part of the authentic teaching of Islam.


d)*Some Muslim jurists are of the opinion that beating is permissible but not advisable. They base their view on the fact that the Prophet intensely disliked the action. But to say that beating is only permissible but never advisable is to say that there is never any good in it but the husband can nevertheless resort to it if he wants to; in other words he can beat up his wife without any good reason. This, however, is a view that cannot possibly be attributed to the Book of God. We can expect the Holy Qur'an to mention beating only if there was some wisdom in that mention. Therefore, if we translate dharb as "beating" we must not be apologetic but ask what is the wisdom behind the Qur'anic suggestion. There could be, it seems, two possible points of wisdom in the suggestion of dhard in the sense of "beating".*


First, the beating done within the limits defined by the Qur'an may indeed bring the husband and wife to some kind of understanding. This is not because of the pain involved, which in any case cannot be too much if the guidance in the Qur'an and Hadith are to be observed. Rather, the husband and wife may come closer together after beating because of the emotions involved. The wife may experience the depth of hurt and disturbance her nushuz is causing and if there is any love left among them may decide for that reason to change her conduct. It seems from observations of human behavior that a show of male physical energy can sometimes bring a woman out of a prolonged bad mood (5)*even though this energy may be seemingly directed against her in the form of angry words or a slap, provided in this manifestation of energy there is an undercurrent of love and desire for the woman and no real harm is done to the woman. In the situation with which the present verse is dealing, it is understood that in his heart the husband does have some love and desire for the wife. For, he has the option of divorcing her but he is not taking that option. Of course, there are husbands who neither love their wives nor divorce them, but keep them to punish them or exploit them. But we are not dealing with this situation here, since the assumption is that ill-will (nushuz)*is from the wife's side.*


Second, the mention of beating may have the wisdom, ironically, to protect wives against what is called wife battering. The Qur'an does not always combat undesirable behavior by legal prohibition but by some other means. Experience also shows that legal prohibition of an action may not always be the most effective method to stop it. The Qur'an by requiring that before any beating there should be admonishing and suspension of sexual relations is providing a more effective measure against wife battering, since battering is the result of uncontrollable anger or aggression and this anger or aggression can be tamed during admonishing and suspension of sexual relations. No statistics exist, but I feel confident that if we research the behavior of men in different religious groups over a long enough period and a vast enough area of the globe, we will find that the incidents of cases of wife battering and other forms of cruelty to women have been less, both in terms of numbers and seriousness, among Muslims than in other groups.


I think that adequately answers that misconception.


23-1) How happy the believers 5) who guard their chastity 6) except with their wives or their slave-girls...
[ The latter actually written the "belongings of their right" which means the slaves or captives a Muslim can acquire at war (his right hand holding a weapon) or on a market (his right hand holding a purse) ]
This has effectively been addressed here:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=3197&sscatid=441


5-33) Such is the reward of those who make war against God or against his Messenger, and of those who spread corruption on the earth : they will be killed or crucified, or their hands and their opposite feet will be cut off, or they will be expelled from the country...
I answered this one in one of my articles.

Let's examine the verse in context:
5:33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

5:34 Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Points to note:
1. The punishment is for those who wage a war against ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER!

2. Killed OR crucified OR exile from the land. Obviously this depended upon the severity of the situation.

3. UNLESS THEY REPENT


So the Qur'an is very clear in this regard, and this verse pertained to those who fought against the Prophets of God, whom God has selected and placed on earth to spread His message.

And the punishment for such people in the next life would be hundreds of times worse if they didn;t recieve punishment in this life.


18-85) (Dhû l-Qarnayn) followed a way. 86) As he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a boiling (or muddy) spring...
Missionaries like to bring this one up a lot. It's been refuted so many times in web sites. Perhaps I will write an article about this one too.

Points to note:
1. The verse says WAJADA meaning it APPEARED to Dhul Qarnayn

2. The arabic word used is maghrib which can also be taken in as the time of sunset, not the place of sunset

3. These phrases, sunset and sunrise are used in everyday laguage. But scientifically we know that the sun does not set or rise. But we find in all newspapers the times of sunrise and sunset. Are all the newspapers wrong and unscientific?! No, this is just the way the language evolved.

More info:
http://www.geocities.com/noorullahwebsite/zul-qarnain.html
http://www.faithfreedom.com/anti_islamic_claims/zulqarnain.html
http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/Religion/Islam/research/jochen.html


67-5) We have adorned the sky of the world with lamps, with which We made what is needed to pelt the devils...
The above is a very poor translation.

67:5 And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
I find nothing difficult about this verse. Many Islamic scientific organizations have used it and found some interesting comparisons with particle physics and astronomy.


Some childish stories from Jewish folktales about Solomon listening to ants, sending birds into battle, or from Christian stories about Jesus making birds of clay, speaking from the cradle ...

I would spend two or three days quoting all of them.
The fact that you find God's miracles and signs childish has no impact on the divine nature of the Qur'an.

If you can specifically point out something you find difficult I would be happy to explain it.

:w:

mansio
03-27-2005, 04:31 PM
Salâm Ansar ul-'Adl,


-- Stories with birds throwing stones on attackers, or Solomon listening to ants and mobilizing an army of jinns, men and birds, definitely belong to the realm of tales to untertain children.


-- 67-5)" We have adorned the sky of the world with lamps,
with which We made what is needed to pelt the devils... "

My translation is poor because of the Arabic. Of course if you add words which don't exist in the original, then it becomes "richer". It's no longer a translation but an interpretation.

" assamâ'a ddunyâ " means " the sky of the world ". Some translate it the lowest heaven, the nearest heaven, the world heaven, the nearest sky.
OK then for " the heaven of the world " which is a little better than " sky ".

" waja`alnâhâ rujûman lishshayâtîni " means " We made missiles out of them for the devils ". There's no " to drive away " in the Arabic. It's only implied.
I admit I should have kept " missiles ". I translated the idea behind it instead.

Now my opinion : This verse is about as ridiculous as the above-mentioned stories.

-- I agree with you that the story of Dhû l-Qarnayn and the sunset can be logically explained.
But in the context of a Quran containing a number of fanciful tales, one tale more or one less... And we didn't tackle the possible identification with Alexander the Great !


-- 5-33) The Algerian Islamist insurgents fight a guerilla war against their government. They are responsible for about 120 000 Muslim people dead. When asked why they kill innocent babies they use this kind of argument : better to kill them now than let them become " enemies " of Islam.
As for the cruelty they use in their killings, guess where they could get the idea from.


-- 2-228) " ... as for them (the wives) it depends on what falls to them, according to custom... "
There's no mention of rights in the Arabic.

-- To many men what is written IS written. Don't you think that God could have prevented much trouble by using another word than " to beat " ?
On the other hand beating of the wives and slavery fit perfectly with the culture of the VII century. How come the Quran wasn't written with a sense of prospective ?
Muslim girls posting in Muslim forums often feel they have to assert their equal-rights position with Muslim men, by some motto or quote, as if that could be an issue.

Greetings to all.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-27-2005, 08:48 PM
-- Stories with birds throwing stones on attackers,
Abraha's army set out to destroy the Kaabah. But Allah swt sent upon the birds with baked clay. If you feel that is childish, etc. that is your personal opinion. It seems to me that you may be disconnected from nature. We see these animals and creatures around us in the world. THey are the creation of Allah swt. They are signs of His Glory. This seems like a very weak argument from your side.


Solomon listening to ants and mobilizing an army of jinns, men and birds, definitely belong to the realm of tales to untertain children.
Okay, can you explain why?


-- 67-5)" We have adorned the sky of the world with lamps,
with which We made what is needed to pelt the devils... "

My translation is poor because of the Arabic. Of course if you add words which don't exist in the original, then it becomes "richer". It's no longer a translation but an interpretation.
I suggest you don't try to put together your own translation. The Qur'an is not to be done in such a layman's manner. The Qur'anic eloquence is so high and so beautiful that you need to have a good understanding of arabic and the tafsir of words to be able to translate the Qur'an.


" assamâ'a ddunyâ " means " the sky of the world ". Some translate it the lowest heaven, the nearest heaven, the world heaven, the nearest sky.
OK then for " the heaven of the world " which is a little better than " sky ".
As-Samaa does not necessarily translate as sky. I agree that heaven is a much better translation and remains more accurate when considering the theological, textual, and historical context.

Ad-Dunya on its own means this world but not in the sense of Al-Ard. This is a mistranslation because you are likening to words that are completely different in arabic, to the same word in english. Ad-Dunya indicates the life of this world/universe or something of temporal nature. But the best phrase for As-Samaa Ad-Dunya would be the 'cosmic heaven'.

http://www.islamicboard.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51


" waja`alnâhâ rujûman lishshayâtîni " means " We made missiles out of them for the devils ". There's no " to drive away " in the Arabic. It's only implied.
I admit I should have kept " missiles ". I translated the idea behind it instead.

Now my opinion : This verse is about as ridiculous as the above-mentioned stories.
Mansio, I don't want to sit here correcting you mistranslations and your opinions built upon these mistranslations. Scholars have devoted their lives to analyze and interpret the Qur'an. You can't expect to do a slap dash job. This is the word of Allah, and I have yet to see a single english translation that has even an 80% accuracy level. Its not something simple.

Now I understand why you are confused. I suggest you either listen to the recitation or read the tafsir. The science of understanding and interpreting the Qur'an is a never-ending science and you can't expect to supercede this detailed subject with just a quick slap together poor translation.


-- I agree with you that the story of Dhû l-Qarnayn and the sunset can be logically explained.
But in the context of a Quran containing a number of fanciful tales, one tale more or one less... And we didn't tackle the possible identification with Alexander the Great !
Dhul Qarnain is not Alexander the great. That was the interpretation of Yusuf Ali. Why would you blame the word of God for the mistakes of someone who tried to interpret it.

And I don't see what you see as 'fanciful' etc. I can't imagine how you could believe such an argument. Our very existence is fancful. All of us just sitting here chit chatting on a planet hurtling through a gignatic dark void at high speeds while being bombarded with harmful radiation and space junk - that's fanciful - but it's real.

Life is absurd. Life is ridiculous. But it is fascinating.

If it doesn't fit with your philosophy, well then i'm sorry mansio, but you may just have to change your philosophy! That's the whole point. You understand the greatness and glory of our majestic creator. And you understand the blessings He bestowed upon humanity - and we appreciate them, not ridicule them.


-- 5-33) The Algerian Islamist insurgents fight a guerilla war against their government. They are responsible for about 120 000 Muslim people dead. When asked why they kill innocent babies they use this kind of argument : better to kill them now than let them become " enemies " of Islam.
As for the cruelty they use in their killings, guess where they could get the idea from.
Why do you judge a car based on the inabilities of poor drivers who never learned how to drive?!

I already answered this. This is just a common fallacy.


-- 2-228) " ... as for them (the wives) it depends on what falls to them, according to custom... "
There's no mention of rights in the Arabic.
Mansio, this is ridiculous. You are building all these silly notions off mistranslations. Commentators of the Qur'an have devoted their lives to analyzing the arabic and explaining it. Your limited understanding doers not supercede the science of centuries in this regard.

Ibn Kathir has said about this verse:
This Ayah indicates that the wife has certain rights on her husband, just as he has certain rights on her, and each is obliged to give the other spouse his due rights

And ALL trnaslators have been unanimous on this verse.

YUSUFALI: And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable
PICKTHAL: And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness
SHAKIR: and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner,

I understand that you may feel confident with your understanding, but you are unable to comprehend the power in the Qur'anic words and it is a life time to analyze them.

Just look at what non-muslims say about the Qur'an after reading it:


G. Margoliouth Introduction toe. M. Rodwell's The Koran, New York Every man's Library, 1977, p. Vll



The Koran admittedly occupies an important position among the great religious books of the world. Though the youngest of the epoch-making works belonging to this class of literature, it yields to hardly any in the wonderful effect which it has produced on large masses of men. It has created an all but new phase of human thought and a fresh type of character. It first transformed a number of heterogeneous desert tribes of the Arabian peninsula into a nation of heroes, and then proceeded to create the vast politico-religious organizations of the Muhammadan world which are one of the great forces with which Europe and the East have to reckon today




Dr. Steingass quoted in T. P. Hughes' Dictionary of Islam, pp. 526-7



A work, then, which calls forth so powerful and seemingly incompatible emotions even in the distant reader distant as to time, and still more so as to mental development - a work which not only conquers the repugnance with which he may begin its perusal, but changes this adverse feeling into astonishment and admiration, such a work must be a wonderful production of the human mind indeed and a problem of the highest interest to every thoughtful observer of the destinies of mankind.




Maunce Bucaille, The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, 1978, p 125



The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur'an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?




Dr: Steingass quoted in Hughes' Dictionary of Islam, p. 528



Here, therefore, its meets as a literary production should perhaps not be measured by some preconceived maxims of subjective and aesthetic taste, but by the effects which it produced in Muhammad's contemporaries and fellow countrymen. If it spoke so powerfully and convincingly to the hearts of his hearers as to weld hitherto centrifugal and antagonistic elements into one compact and well organized body. animated by ideas far beyond those which had until now ruled the Arabian mind, then its eloquence was perfect, simply because it created a civilized nation out of savage tribes, and shot a fresh woof into the old warp of history.




Arthur J Arberry The Koran Interpreted London: Oxford University Press, 1964,p.X



In making the present attempt to improve on the performance of my predecessors, and to produce something which might be accepted as echoing however faintly the sublime rhetoric of the Arabic Koran, I have been at pain to study the intricate and richly varied rhythms which-apart from the message itself-constitute the Koran's undeniable claim to rank amongst the greatest literary masterpieces of mankind ... This very characteristic feature-"that inimitable symphony" as the believing Pickthall described his Holy Book, "the very sounds of which move men to tears and ecstasy"-has been almost totally ignored by previous translators; it is therefore not surprising that what they have wrought sounds dull and net indeed in comparison with the splendidly decorated original.

The last quote by Arberry is of special importance because Arberry translated the Qur'an and analyzed the arabic as a non-muslim.


-- To many men what is written IS written. Don't you think that God could have prevented much trouble by using another word than " to beat " ?
If you cannot understand the Qur'anic tafsir and the eloquence, then why on earth would you try to question the wording? Every single word in the Qur'an serves thousands of purposes and is divinely ordained.

First read the tafsir and then get back to me on this issue.


On the other hand beating of the wives and slavery fit perfectly with the culture of the VII century. How come the Quran wasn't written with a sense of prospective ?

Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:

I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your blessings as you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu Dawood Book 11, Number 2138)

Islam elevates women. It may be difficult for you to understand because you are looking at the religion as an outsider, but take a look at this article:
http://magic-city-news.com/article_2694.shtml

And I'll close with this verse:

33:35 For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise- for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward”

:w:

wabbaJ
03-27-2005, 10:02 PM
Assalamualiakum, [FOR IMAM ANSAR AL-'ADL ONLY PLEASE]

I have a very quick question, and i dont usually use the forum, so please bear with me.

I have a very special question for IMAM AL-ANSAR AL-'ADL. i've read a lot of your posts brother, and i think theyre very useful...

My question, or comment, is: Somebody has said that the reason they reject Islam (she has a beard so i dont know to say he or she) :brother: :sister: :confused: is because "they" say everyone should pray in a circle because it makes everyone equal, instead of rows. i know this is insane, but please back this up with solid evidence. of course, i could tell "Sister Bear" that it just doesnt make sense, but please help me out.

Sincerely, wabbaJ

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-27-2005, 11:01 PM
:sl: WabbaJ,
Welcome to the forum, and I appreciate your inquiry.

A number of points may be mentioned in response to this absurd notion.

Let us point out the purpose behing praying the manner that we do:

1. Islam is a divinely ordained system. God has given us specific guidelines which will ensure our success in this life and the next. The two sources of Islam are the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh has been to pray in rows facing the Kaabah, which acts as a focal point directing worship of God across the globe and throughout time.

2. The manner is which we pray is pleasing to God and is the smae manner in which the angels pray in heaven. By joining together in rows, the prayer forms an organized pattern, and promotes unity and solidarity.

3. I cannot imagine how praying in a circle grants anymore equality than rows. A circle would have a number of problems. The whole notion of praying towards the Kaabah would have to be discarded. The Imaam would be standing in the center implying some sense of divinity. Rows would still be necessary to accomodate more people, unless one proposses widening the circle, which would only result in a waste of space. Mosques would have to be ten times larger to accomodate the same population.Hence, this notion is ridiculous.

4. If this person rejects Islam solely on the basis of prayer in rows, this would be very strange because this person is willing to accept the Qur'an and Sunnah. If one accepts the Qur'an and Sunnah they accept the Deen and must abide by it.

In short, Islam is the natural way and for one to reject it is to reject their own nature.

:w:

mansio
03-27-2005, 11:38 PM
Ansar ul 'Adl,

I don't understand what's wrong with my translations.

You say "as-samâ" is better translated as "heaven". I did so.

Of course "ad-dunya" isn't "al-ard" because one is the world and the other the earth.
You say "dunya" means world/universe and you translate it with "cosmic". So where's the problem ? Cosmic comes from Greek "kosmos" which means universe. If I slightly change my translation from world to universe then we agree again.

I think we aren't talking about the same thing : I'm talking about translation and you're talking about interpretations.

I've put down for you the very words of the Quran. Please accept them and do not try to modify them.
Here they are again in Arabic :

67-5) Wa (and) ja`al (made) nâ (We) hâ (her= the lamps) rujûman (missiles) li (for) sh (the) shayâtîni (devils).

So now tell me why my translation is a mistranslation. Which word hasn't been translated correctly?

I really wonder how you can understand the Quran if it's interpretation is a never-ending science. Or is it because it's meaning is sometimes too mundane to allow a plain translation ?
That reminds me of the Catholics that were forbidden for centuries to read the Bible by themselves. They had to hear from it through priests.

The assimilation of Dhu l-Qarnayn with Alexander has nothing to do with Yusuf Ali. This story has been picked up (again, I'm sorry) from Christian legends concerning Alexander the Great.

2-228) I'm ready to admit your interpretation about the rights of the wives as I know that every translator has interpreted it like you. I can read several languages and I've never counted all the different translations of the Quran I could refer to. I've even started a translation from Arabic to Turkish but I stopped it because the two languages have a too different structure.

I see that you mentioned dear old Doctor Bucaille. If the Prophet was illiterate he was neither deaf nor mute to listen to and to discuss with Jews or Christians. "Ummiyy" means also "who hasn't received a revelation" and doesn't imply necessarily that one cannot write. Besides as a business-man and a stateman he could dictate anytime to his secretaries. The scientific truths in the Quran were nothing new. You just had to ask the proper persons to find out about the science of the time and then have it written down in the Quran. Even the errors were passed along.

Salâm.

_salam_
03-28-2005, 12:16 AM
:sl: WabbaJ,
Welcome to the forum, and I appreciate your inquiry.

A number of points may be mentioned in response to this absurd notion.

Let us point out the purpose behing praying the manner that we do:

1. Islam is a divinely ordained system. God has given us specific guidelines which will ensure our success in this life and the next. The two sources of Islam are the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh has been to pray in rows facing the Kaabah, which acts as a focal point directing worship of God across the globe and throughout time.

2. The manner is which we pray is pleasing to God and is the smae manner in which the angels pray in heaven. By joining together in rows, the prayer forms an organized pattern, and promotes unity and solidarity.

3. I cannot imagine how praying in a circle grants anymore equality than rows. A circle would have a number of problems. The whole notion of praying towards the Kaabah would have to be discarded. The Imaam would be standing in the center implying some sense of divinity. Rows would still be necessary to accomodate more people, unless one proposses widening the circle, which would only result in a waste of space. Mosques would have to be ten times larger to accomodate the same population.Hence, this notion is ridiculous.

4. If this person rejects Islam solely on the basis of prayer in rows, this would be very strange because this person is willing to accept the Qur'an and Sunnah. If one accepts the Qur'an and Sunnah they accept the Deen and must abide by it.

In short, Islam is the natural way and for one to reject it is to reject their own nature.

:w:
We do pray in a circle if you think about it, the Kabba is the center. If you go to Mecca and pray right next to the Kabba the people will be circled around it and the "circle" goes out from there all around the world.

But besides all that, this has got to be the most rediculous reason for not excepting Islam. The person can not truely believe in the rest of the religion, like they say they do, and then throw it all away over something so trivial. ;D

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-28-2005, 12:24 AM
I don't understand what's wrong with my translations.
The only thing wrong is that you are attempting to translate a very complex book according to whatever meanings you understand from it. Qur'anic verses have various meanings and deeper interpretations and it is incorrect to feel that you can just slap together a translation of the Qur'an without studying it indepth, as the translators who devoted their lives to the Qur'an did.


You say "as-samâ" is better translated as "heaven". I did so.
Good.


Of course "ad-dunya" isn't "al-ard" because one is the world and the other the earth.
You say "dunya" means world/universe and you translate it with "cosmic". So where's the problem ? Cosmic comes from Greek "kosmos" which means universe. If I slightly change my translation from world to universe then we agree again.
Yes, but again, that's the whole point. We have to maintain the highest accuracy when conveying the meaning and eloquence of the Qur'an.

There is a significan difference when you translate a verse as "sky of the world" versus "cosmic heaven". I hope you can appreciate that difference and understand the importance in analyzing the Qur'an carefully.

47:24 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?


I think we aren't talking about the same thing : I'm talking about translation and you're talking about interpretations.
Any translation of the Qur'an is an interpretation!
This is a very important point.


I've put down for you the very words of the Quran. Please accept them and do not try to modify them.
I am slightly stunned by the way you have phrased this request. As a muslim I do not change the Qur'an at all. I can't. But there is a significant difference between changing the Qur'an and asking for the highest accuracy in translation.


Here they are again in Arabic :

67-5) Wa (and) ja`al (made) nâ (We) hâ (her= the lamps) rujûman (missiles) li (for) sh (the) shayâtîni (devils).

So now tell me why my translation is a mistranslation. Which word hasn't been translated correctly?

By translating each word literally, this does not necessarily make the translation of the verse accurate. There are phrases and expressions in various languages that sometimes make no sense when translated literally into another language.

To produce a correct translation, one must understand the verse, understand the various contexts of the verse, understand the tafsir, understand the features of both languages involved in the translation etc.

This is the work of a lifetime, and I'm just asking you to be accurate when translating the word of God.


I really wonder how you can understand the Quran if it's interpretation is a never-ending science.
Every time I read the Qur'an, I see new information. We can interpret the Qur'an in the light of any aspect of life. We will never understand every single meaning of a verse, Take for example Suratul Faitha. Books upon books have been authored just on these seven verses. They describe in detail hundreds of implications of these beautiful words. They question and ponder and go into so much depth- yet still books can be written on this subject. Still we have not even come close to exhausting the meaning of these verses.

When you begin to understand this, then you will realize what the Qur'an really is.

Let's just look at one verse:
http://www.islamicoutlet.com/islamicoutlet.com/images/quran/1_2.gif
I have seen entire books written just on understanding the meaning of Rabb. Understanding the relationship between the Rabb and His creation.
All of that is just analyzing one word of this verse. When we start speaking of the verse itself, we start understanding that glorification of Allah swt is the sublime reality of the universe. It is the start of life, and the end of life. Understanding the implications when you say Alhamulilah. This phrase itself moves the universe in worship.

You can't even begin to understand how complex this subject is. I really recommend that you try to understand Islam and read various books of tafsir rather than trying to put together your own homemade, third class understanding of this religion.

I am not trying to be insulting. I just can't seem to convey to you the understanding of what you are dealing with. You are trying to show me the beautiful world I live in, by looking at the mountains, forests, animals, water, atmoshpere- all the life- and then slapping a paintbrush on a canvass in two seconds, showing me your painting, pointing to it and saying, "This is the world you live in."

But that sloppy painting can't even do an atom's weight of justice to the life I see on this planet.

And the Qur'an is the spoken word of the Source of All Life.


That reminds me of the Catholics that were forbidden for centuries to read the Bible by themselves. They had to hear from it through priests.
Well that's not the case of the Qur'an. You can read it, but you should at least have some appreciation for what you are reading.

Look at the life of this world. I'm not stopping you, but don't judge the life of this world based on your sloppy painting.


The assimilation of Dhu l-Qarnayn with Alexander has nothing to do with Yusuf Ali. This story has been picked up (again, I'm sorry) from Christian legends concerning Alexander the Great.
And it has nothing to do with the Qur'an. The Qur'an says Dhul Qarnain not Alexander the Great. it is a misconception that Dhul Qarnain is the same as Alexander the Great.


2-228) I'm ready to admit your interpretation about the rights of the wives as I know that every translator has interpreted it like you. I can read several languages and I've never counted all the different translations of the Quran I could refer to. I've even started a translation from Arabic to Turkish but I stopped it because the two languages have a too different structure.
I think the most foolish thing anyone could do, would be to assume that they have more authority on understanding a scripture than the voluminous in-depth analysis carried out by thousands of scholars, each devoting their life to understand the book.


I see that you mentioned dear old Doctor Bucaille. If the Prophet was illiterate he was neither deaf nor mute to listen to and to discuss with Jews or Christians. "Ummiyy" means also "who hasn't received a revelation" and doesn't imply necessarily that one cannot write. Besides as a business-man and a stateman he could dictate anytime to his secretaries. The scientific truths in the Quran were nothing new. You just had to ask the proper persons to find out about the science of the time and then have it written down in the Quran. Even the errors were passed along.
Two misconceptions in one paragraph.

Let's just deal with embryology for now.
Refer to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/PlagiarismGreek/

The ridiculous notion of religious borrowing should be dead by now. It is ignorant of so many details and is truly very imaginative.

Read the following:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Qurancopiedmyth
http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/misconception/article03.shtml

I am fully prepared to debate you on the subject, if you choose.

yoshiyahu
03-28-2005, 03:06 AM
I have no reason to believe that my current religion is not adequete, and I am not convinced by Islamic proof-texts.

wabbaJ
03-28-2005, 04:22 AM
Thank you for your most thoughtful response

wabbaJ
03-28-2005, 04:23 AM
Hi im posting more stuff

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-29-2005, 03:02 AM
I have no reason to believe that my current religion is not adequete, and I am not convinced by Islamic proof-texts.

As long as you are keeping an open-mind when learning about Islam, I can accept this reason of yours. For some people its not really a rejection of Islam, as it is an acceptance of their own religion.

But islam's message to Jews is that this is not a different religion. This is what was taught by Prophet Moses and the Prophets of the Children of Israel. It is the continuation of your religion in its purest form.

Al-Baqarah
130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

131. Behold! When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."

134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

138. (Our religion is) the Sibghah (http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?Sub=%d5%f6%c8%fa%db%f3%c9) of Allah. And which sibghah (http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidic_2.asp?Sub=%d5%f6%c8%fa%db%f3%c9) is better than that of Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.

Allah speaks the truth.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-29-2005, 03:21 AM
This is what was taught by Prophet Moses and the Prophets of the Children of Israel. It is the continuation of your religion in its purest form. If this is what God had spoken to us on Mount Sinai, we would have already been practicing it. Even Islam does not claim what we can: That HaShem brought us out of Egypt, and He Himself spoke to all of us at Mt. Sinai, speaking to us directly His commandments.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-29-2005, 03:32 AM
If this is what God had spoken to us on Mount Sinai, we would have already been practicing it.
I agree that at many times it was being practiced. But later on it was not.


Even Islam does not claim what we can: That HaShem brought us out of Egypt, and He Himself spoke to all of us at Mt. Sinai, speaking to us directly His commandments.
The Qur'an does speak of these events, if that's what you are asking about. Or are you pointing to a favour on you by God that you ask for a similar favour on Muslims?

Just as your people fled the persecution of Pharoah, so did the Muslims leave the persecution of the Makkans. But while the Children of Israel spent forty years wandering iin the desert, the Muslims returned to makkah and triumphed over it, and in the same time of forty years had become the largest empire in the land. Victory comes to those who do good, regardless of their ethnicity.

And Prophet Moses spoke to God on earth, and Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in heaven.

But in the end, Prophet Moses was a Muslim as well. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told Umar ibn Al-Khattab that if Prophet Moses had been living at their time, he also would have followed Islam.

God sends Prophets to guide human beings to the right path. It was naturally intended for the Jews to follow the final messenger who would be sent to them - Prophet Muhammad saws.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-29-2005, 03:52 AM
And Prophet Moses spoke to God on earth, and Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in heaven. Moses spoke to God on both heaven and earth.

God sends Prophets to guide human beings to the right path. It was naturally intended for the Jews to follow the final messenger who would be sent to them - Prophet Muhammad saws. I'm afraid you are missing the point. The fact is that we did not need Moses as an intermediary to speak to HaShem for us, but HaShem chose him to be our leader and to guide us, and that none could be greater than him. More importantly, HaShem himself came to us and spoke so that even those who were deaf could hear his voice and even those who were blind could see his back, and he gave us our commandments and told us never to deviate from them, nor to change them in any way, be it to add to or subtract from them.

It is such a strong fact that no supersessionist religion that arose long after this event can claim otherwise. No other religion claims otherwise. In all other religions, their ways are the revelation of a single man or a group of men, where ours are directly from the mouth of HaShem to all his chosen at once, and not through a messenger alone. That is why Jews do not accept any other religion, and it is why we remain until moshiach come and beyond.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-29-2005, 04:03 AM
May I see the passages you are referring to? That Moses spoke to God in heaven and that the Children of Israel as a whole were recipients of revelation, is new to me.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-29-2005, 04:25 AM
That Moses Ascended to Heaven is an oral law factoid (when he ascends into the cloud of HaShem), but that HaShem spoke to all of Israel is in the Torah:

Exodus 19:

9 And the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever." And Moses relayed the words of the people to the Lord.
...
16. It came to pass on the third day when it was morning, that there were thunder claps and lightning flashes, and a thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very powerful blast of a shofar, and the entire nation that was in the camp shuddered.

17. Moses brought the people out toward God from the camp, and they stood at the bottom of the mountain.

18. And the entire Mount Sinai smoked because the Lord had descended upon it in fire, and its smoke ascended like the smoke of the kiln, and the entire mountain quaked violently.

19. The sound of the shofar grew increasingly stronger; Moses would speak and God would answer him with a voice.

20. The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain, and the Lord summoned Moses to the peak of the mountain, and Moses ascended.
...
Exodus 20:

1. God spoke all these words, to respond:
- God spoke Heb. אֱלֹהִים. [The word] אֱֱלֹהִים always means “a judge.” [This Divine Name is used here] because there are some sections in the Torah [that contain commandments] that if a person performs them, he receives a reward, but if not, he does not receive any punishment for them. I might think that so it is with the Ten Commandments. Therefore, Scripture says: “God (אֱלֹהִים) spoke,” [signifying God’s role as] a Judge, [Whose function is] to mete out punishment [when the Ten Commandments are not obeyed]. [from Mechilta]
all these words [This] teaches [us] that the Holy One, blessed be He, said the Ten Commandments in one utterance, something that is impossible for a human being to say [in a similar way]. If so, why does the Torah say again, “I am [the Lord, your God (verse 2)]” and “You shall have no…” (verse 3)? Because He later explained each statement [of the Ten Commandments] individually. — [from Mechilta]
to respond Heb. לֵאמֹר, lit., to say. [This] teaches [us] that they responded to the positive [commandments], “Yes,” and to the negative [commandments], “No.” -[from Mechilta]
...Ten commandments...
15. And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.

And all the people saw [This] teaches [us] that there was not one blind person among them. From where do we know that [there was] no mute person among them? The Torah states: “And all the people replied” (Exod. 19:8). From where do we know that there was no deaf person among them? The Torah states: “We will do and hear” (Exod. 24:7). [from Mechilta]

16. They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."

17. But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin."

18. The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.

19. The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, +You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.

from the heavens I have spoken But another verse states: “The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai” (Exod. 19:20). The third verse comes and harmonizes them: “From the heavens He let you hear His voice in order to discipline you, and on earth He showed you His great fire” (Deut. 4:36). His glory was in heaven, His fire and His power were on the earth. Alternatively, He bent down the [lower] heavens and the highest heavens and spread them out upon the mountain. So [Scripture] says: “And He bent the heavens, and He came down” (Ps. 18:10). [from Mechilta]

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-29-2005, 04:55 AM
Why do you find it hard to believe the Christian view that God was amongst men and in human form, when the torah says a similar thing?

And some questions have to be asked about the event.
How many people did God speak to? Is this that different from speaking to a single person?
And why would this have any affect on the validity of Islam?

And if this event is interpreted in the way I think it is, I would hae to reject it just as I reject God becoming a human or libving amongst them.

42:51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

52. And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-

53. The Way of Allah, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Behold (how) all affairs tend towards Allah.

SpaceFalcon2001
03-29-2005, 05:13 AM
Why do you find it hard to believe the Christian view that God was amongst men and in human form, when the torah says a similar thing? HaShem was not in the form of a Man at all. Was he in the form of a bush when he spoke to Moses from there? The answer is exactly No. He simply denoted a place from which His voice would be heard and His "back" could be seen.

How many people did God speak to? Is this that different from speaking to a single person? He spoke to all of Israel, it is much different than a single person claiming a revelation. Please read the following Al-'Adl

THE BELIEVABILITY GAME

Gauge the level of credibility of the following scenarios.

Some claims are inherently unverifiable. For example, would you believe me if I told you the following:

Scenario #1:
"Last week after dinner, I went for a walk through the forest near my house. Suddenly everything was awash in a tremendous light and God appeared to me, designating me as His prophet. He told me to announce this revelation to you at this time."

Believable?

In theory this could have happened. It doesn't seem likely, but you don't know I'm lying. Would you choose to believe me?

Without any substantiating evidence, why choose to believe me? A foolish move, indeed.

Scenario #2:

Would you believe me if I told you the following:
"Last night while I was eating dinner with my family, the room started to suddenly shake and God's booming voice was heard by all of us. He designated me as His prophet and commanded me to announce this revelation."

Believable?

This could have happened too. If I were to bring in my family to confirm the story it would be more believable than the first story. You certainly don't know if I'm lying.

Would you believe me? Would you fork over $10,000 dollars if I told you God commanded you to do so?

No way. There is still not enough evidence to trust my claim -- because it is very possible that my family is lying.

Scenario #3:

There is another type of claim that you can know is false. For example, would you believe me if I told you this:
"Do you remember what happened 10 minutes ago just as you began reading this article? Remember how the room started shaking, then the ceiling opened up to the skies, and you and I together heard God's booming voice come down and say 'Thou shalt hearken to the voice of Nechemia Coopersmith for he is my prophet!' And then the room went back to normal and you continued reading. You remember that, don't you?"

Is this believable?

This kind of claim is completely different. The two previous scenarios at least had the possibility of being true. You chose not to accept them because they were unverifiable. However this third scenario is impossible to believe. I'm claiming something happened to you that you know did not happen. Since you didn't experience it, you know I'm lying. I cannot convince you of something that you yourself know didn't happen.

This first type of claim -- that something happened to someone else -- is unverifiable, because you do not know for certain that the claim is a lie. Therefore it is possible for a person to decide to accept the claim as true if he really wanted to and take that leap of faith.

However, the other type of claim -- that something happened to you -- you know if it is inherently false. People do not accept patently false assertions, especially those that carry significant consequences.

SINAI: AN IMPOSSIBLE HOAX

So far we have seen two types of claims -- one is unverifiable and the other is inherently false.

Could the revelation at Sinai have been a brilliant hoax, duping millions of people into believing that God spoke to them?

Let's imagine the scene. Moses comes down the mountain and claims, "We all today heard God speak, all of you heard the God's voice from the fire..."

Assuming Moses is making it up, how would the people respond to his story?


"Moses! What are you talking about?! Boy, you sure had us going there for awhile. We may have even believed you if you came down and claimed that God appeared to you personally. But now you blew it! Now we know you're lying because you're claiming an event happened to us that we know didn't happen! We did not hear God speak to us from any fire!"

If the revelation at Sinai did not occur, then Moses is claiming an event everyone immediately knows is an outright lie, since they know that they never heard God speak. It is preposterous to think Moses can get away with a claim that everyone knows is lie.

REVELATION CLAIMED LATER IN HISTORY

Perhaps a hoax such as this could have been attempted at a later period in history. Perhaps the claim of national revelation did not originate at Sinai, but began, for example, 1,000 years after the event was said to have occurred. Perhaps the leader Ezra, for example, appears on the scene, introducing a book purported to be written by God and given to a people who stood at Sinai a long time ago.

Could someone get away with this kind of hoax? For example, would you believe the following:


"I want to let you in on a very little-known, but true fact. In 1794 over 200 years ago, from May until August, the entire continent of North America mysteriously sank under the sea. For those four months, the whole continent was submerged and somehow all animal, plant and human life managed to adapt to these bizarre conditions. Then, on August 31, the entire continent suddenly floated up to the surface and life resumed to normal."

Is there a possibility that I'm telling the truth? Do you know for a fact that it is a lie? After all, it happened so long ago, how do you know it didn't happen? Maybe you learned about in school and just forgot about it.

You know North America did not sink hundreds of years ago for one simple reason: If it did, you would have heard about it. An event so unique and amazing, witnessed by multitudes of people would have been known, discussed, and passed down, becoming a part of history. The fact that no one has heard of it up until now means you know the story is not true, making it impossible to accept.

An event of great significance with a large number of eyewitnesses cannot be perpetuated as a hoax. If it did not happen, everyone would realize it is false since no one ever heard about it before. Thus, if such an event was indeed accepted as part of history, the only way to understand its acceptance is that the event actually happened.

INTRODUCED LATER?

Let's assume for the moment that the revelation at Mount Sinai is really a hoax; God did not write the Torah. How did the revelation at Sinai become accepted for thousands of years as part of our nation's history?

Imagine someone trying to pull off such a hoax. An Ezra figure shows up one day holding a scroll.


"Hey Ezra – what are you holding there?"
"This is the Torah."
"The Torah? What's that?"
"It's an amazing book filled with laws, history and stories. Here, take a look at it."
Very nice, Ezra. Where did you get this?"
"Open up the book and see what it says. This book was given thousands of years ago to your ancestors. Three million of them stood at Mount Sinai and heard God speak! God appeared to everyone, giving His law and instruction."

How would you respond to such a claim?

The people give Ezra a quizzical look and say,


"Wait a second, Ezra. Something is a little fishy here. Why haven't we ever heard of this before? You're describing one of the most momentous events that could ever happen, claiming that it happened to our ancestors – and we never heard about it?"

"Sure. It was along time ago. Of course you never heard about it."

"C'mon Ezra! It's impossible that our grandparents or great-grandparents would not have passed down the most significant event in our nation's history to some of the people! How could it be that no one has heard about this up until now?! You're claiming all my ancestors, the entire nation, 3 million people heard God speak and received a set of instructions called the Torah, and none of us have heard about it?! You must be lying."

If one cannot pull off a hoax with regard to a continent sinking, so too one cannot pull off a hoax to convince an entire people that their ancestors experienced the most unique event in all of human history.

Everyone would know it's a lie.

For thousands of years, Sinai was accepted as central to Jewish history. How else can this be explained?

Given that people will not fall for a hoax they know is a lie, how could national revelation have been not only accepted -- but faithfully followed with great sacrifice by the vast majority of Jews?

The only way a people would accept such a claim is if it really happened. If Sinai did not happen, everyone would know it's a lie and it would never have been accepted. The only way one can ever claim a nation experienced revelation and have it accepted is if it is true.


SINAI: THE ONLY CLAIM OF NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, tens of thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that God spoke to him or her. All religions that base themselves on some type of revelation share essentially the same beginning: a holy person goes into solitude, comes back to his people, and announces that he has experienced a personal revelation where God appointed him to be His prophet.

Would you believe someone who claims to have received a personal communication from God appointing him or her as God's new prophet?

Maybe He did. Then again, maybe He didn't. One can never know. The claim is inherently unverifiable.

Personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion since one can never know if it is indeed true. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Maimonides writes:
Israel did not believe in Moses, our teacher, on account of the miracles he performed. For when one's faith is based on miracles, doubt remains in the mind that these miracles may have been done through the occult and witchcraft...


What then were the grounds of believing him? The revelation on Sinai which we saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears, not having to depend on the testimony of others... (Mishna Torah - Foundations of Torah 8:1)

A BOLD PREDICTION

There are 15,000 known religions in all of recorded history. Given this inherent weakness, why do all of them base their claim on personal revelation? If someone wanted their religion to be accepted, why wouldn't they present the strongest, most believable claim possible -- i.e. national revelation! It's far more credible. No one has to take a leap of faith and blindly trust just one person's word. It is qualitatively better to claim that God came to everyone, telling the entire group that so-and-so is His prophet.

Why would God establish His entire relationship with a nation through one man, without any possibility of verification, and still expect this nation to obediently follow an entire system of instructions, based only on blind faith?

Yet, Judaism is the only religion in the annals of history that makes the best of all claims -- that everyone heard God speak. No other religion claims the experience of national revelation. Why?

Furthermore, the author of the Torah predicts that there will never be another claim of national revelation throughout history!
'You might inquire about times long past, from the day that God created man on earth, and from one end of heaven to the other: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fires as you have heard and survived?' (Deut. 4:32-33)

Let's consider the option that God did not write the Torah, and its author successfully convinced a group of people to accept a false claim of national revelation. In this book, the author writes a prediction that over the course of history no one will ever make a similar claim. That means if such a claim is ever made at some future time, the prediction will end up being false and his religion is finished.

How could the author include in the book he is passing off as a hoax the prediction that no other person will ever attempt to perpetuate the same hoax when he just made that exact claim? If he could do it, he can be certain that others will too, especially since it is the best possible claim to make. If you are making up a religion, you do not write something you know you cannot predict and whose outcome you would think is guaranteed to be exactly the opposite.

However, aside from the Jewish claim of Mount Sinai, it is a fact that no other nation has ever claimed such a similar national revelation.

Let's summarize two primary questions:

1. Out of 15,000 known religions in recorded history, why is Judaism the only one that claims national revelation, the best of all claims? Why do all other religions base themselves on the inherently weak assertion of personal revelation?

2. If Judaism's claim is indeed an example of a successful hoax that falsely asserts national revelation, the author just got away with passing off the best possible claim, and others will certainly follow suit. Why then would he predict that no one else will ever make a similar claim, a prediction he knows he cannot foresee, and whose outcome is likely to be the exact opposite?

There is one simple answer to both questions. A national revelation -- as opposed to personal revelation -- is the one lie you cannot get away with. It is one event you cannot fabricate. The only way to make this claim is if it actually happened.

If the claim is true, the people will believe it because they are agreeing to something they already know. Either they personally witnessed it, or their ancestors collectively passed down the account as part of their nation's accepted history.

If the claim is false, it's like trying to convince you that God spoke to you or your parents and somehow you never heard of it. No one would ever accept such a claim.

Therefore no other religion has ever made the best of all claims, because it is the one claim that can only be made if it is true. One cannot pass national revelation off as a hoax.

When inventing a religion, the originator must resort to personal revelation, despite its inherent weakness, since it is a claim that is unverifiable. The originator can hope to find adherents willing to take a leap of faith and accept his or her religion. After all, no one can ever know it is a lie. [Of course, no one can know if it's true either.] This simply cannot work with national revelation since it's the one claim that everyone will know is a lie.

Only Judaism can claim national revelation since the Jewish people is the only nation in the history of mankind who ever experienced it.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the other major religions of the world both accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai, including the Five Books of Moses in their Bible, and hold the Sinai revelation as a key component of their religion.

When starting their own religions, why did they build upon the Jewish claim? Why didn't they just deny the revelation ever happened?

The answer is that they knew that if national revelation can never be fabricated; so too, its validity can therefore never be denied.

Now it is understandable how the Author of the Torah can confidently predict that there will never be another claim of national revelation in history.

Because only God knew it would happen only once, as it did -- at Sinai over 3,000 years ago.

And why would this have any affect on the validity of Islam? Muhammed was a messenger who the Quran says received revelations from Allah. He alone had these, no one else can verify them.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-29-2005, 09:44 PM
:sl:
Thanks for your post, SpaceFalcon.


HaShem was not in the form of a Man at all. Was he in the form of a bush when he spoke to Moses from there? The answer is exactly No. He simply denoted a place from which His voice would be heard and His "back" could be seen.
I'm not sure I understand the last statement. But anyway, I can understand your saying of denoting a place for the voice.


He spoke to all of Israel, it is much different than a single person claiming a revelation. Please read the following Al-Haq
I read the article and it was interesting. But the article makes some assumptions that I will point out later.

Before i do, I should show you the Qur'an's response to this:
Suratul Qasas (28)
43. We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition.

44. Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events).

45. But We raised up (new) generations, and long were the ages that passed over them; but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them; but it is We Who send apostles (with inspiration).

46. Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) Tur when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.

47. If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us an apostle? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"

48. But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

49. Say: "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"

50. But if they hearken not to thee, know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follow his own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah. for Allah guides not people given to wrong-doing.

51. Now have We caused the Word to reach them themselves, in order that they may receive admonition.

52. Those to whom We sent the Book before this,- they do believe in this (revelation):

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will) from before this.

54. Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert Evil with Good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them.

55. And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."

56. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

There are a few points to note here:
1. The belief in Prophet Moses as a prophet was amongst the Children of Israel before this event at Mount Sinai
2. There were no witnesses to Prophet Moses claiming Prophethood either! Not even his family!
28:29. Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

28:30. But when he came to the (fire), a voice was heard from the right bank of the valley, from a tree in hallowed ground: "O Moses! Verily I am Allah, the Lord of the Worlds....
Thus, Prophet Moses was in the same position as Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Both first recieved revelation on their own, at a mountain as a sheperd.
-the real reason the Children of Israel believed in Prophet Moses, and the Sahaba in Prophet Muhammad was

a) because of the message
and b) because of the miracles

Your claim that no one witnessed Prophet Muhamad's prophethood is not correct at all. He performed many signs in public that were witnessed by thousands.

http://islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=596
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=106

And lastly, the Qur'an directly answers this claim (usually from atheists) for a manifest sign from God eg. God speaking to the population, some sign from heaven, etc.

Please allow me to quote Ash-Shua'raa in its entirety.

1. Ta. Sin. Mim.

2. These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

3. It may be thou frettest thy soul with grief, that they do not become Believers.

4. If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.

5. But there comes not to them a newly-revealed Message from ((Allah)) Most Gracious, but they turn away therefrom.

6. They have indeed rejected (the Message): so they will know soon (enough) the truth of what they mocked at!


7. Do they not look at the earth,- how many noble things of all kinds We have produced therein?

8. Verily, in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

9. And verily, thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

10. Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

11. "The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah."

12. He said: "O my Lord! I do fear that they will charge me with falsehood:

13. "My breast will be straitened. And my speech may not go (smoothly): so send unto Aaron.

14. "And (further), they have a charge of crime against me; and I fear they may slay me."

15. Allah said: "By no means! proceed then, both of you, with Our Signs; We are with you, and will listen (to your call).

16. "So go forth, both of you, to Pharaoh, and say: 'We have been sent by the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds;

17. "'Send thou with us the Children of Israel.'"

18. (Pharaoh) said: "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life?

19. "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!"

20. Moses said: "I did it then, when I was in error.

21. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the apostles.

22. "And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"

23. Pharaoh said: "And what is the 'Lord and Cherisher of the worlds'?"

24. (Moses) said: "The Lord and Cherisher of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- if ye want to be quite sure."

25. (Pharaoh) said to those around: "Did ye not listen (to what he says)?"

26. (Moses) said: "Your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from the beginning!"

27. (Pharaoh) said: "Truly your apostle who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"

28. (Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!"

29. (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"

30. (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?"

31. (Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!"

32. So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)!

33. And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders!

34. (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well- versed:

35. "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"

36. They said: "Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while), and dispatch to the Cities heralds to collect-

37. "And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed."

38. So the sorcerers were got together for the appointment of a day well-known,

39. And the people were told: "Are ye (now) assembled?-

40. "That we may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?"

41. So when the sorcerers arrived, they said to Pharaoh: "Of course - shall we have a (suitable) reward if we win?

42. He said: "Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."

43. Moses said to them: "Throw ye - that which ye are about to throw!"

44. So they threw their ropes and their rods, and said: "By the might of Pharaoh, it is we who will certainly win!"

45. Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake!

46. Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration,

47. Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,

48. "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."

49. Said (Pharaoh): "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! but soon shall ye know!

50. "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"

51. They said: "No matter! for us, we shall but return to our Lord!

52. "Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the believers!"

53. By inspiration we told Moses: "Travel by night with my servants; for surely ye shall be pursued."

54. Then Pharaoh sent heralds to (all) the Cities,

55. (Saying): "These (Israelites) are but a small band,

56. "And they are raging furiously against us;

57. "But we are a multitude amply fore-warned."

58. So We expelled them from gardens, springs,

59. Treasures, and every kind of honourable position;

60. Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things.

61. So they pursued them at sunrise.

62. And when the two bodies saw each other, the people of Moses said: "We are sure to be overtaken."

63. (Moses) said: "By no means! my Lord is with me! Soon will He guide me!"

64. Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

65. And We made the other party approach thither.

66. We delivered Moses and all who were with him;

67. But We drowned the others.


68. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

69. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

70. And rehearse to them (something of) Abraham's story.

71. Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What worship ye?"

72. They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly in attendance on them."

73. He said: "Do they listen to you when ye call (on them), or do you good or harm?"

74. They said: "Nay, but we found our fathers doing thus (what we do)."

75. He said: "Do ye then see whom ye have been worshipping,-

76. "Ye and your fathers before you?-

77. "For they are enemies to me; not so the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds;

78. "Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;

79. "Who gives me food and drink,

80. "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;

81. "Who will cause me to die, and then to life (again);

82. "And who, I hope, will forgive me my faults on the day of Judgment.

83. "O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;

84. "Grant me honourable mention on the tongue of truth among the latest (generations);

85. "Make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss;

86. "Forgive my father, for that he is among those astray;

87. "And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when (men) will be raised up;-

88. "The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail,

89. "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;

90. "To the righteous, the Garden will be brought near,

91. "And to those straying in Evil, the Fire will be placed in full view;

92. "And it shall be said to them: 'Where are the (gods) ye worshipped-

93. "'Besides Allah. Can they help you or help themselves?'

94. "Then they will be thrown headlong into the (Fire),- they and those straying in Evil,

95. "And the whole hosts of Iblis together.

96. "They will say there in their mutual bickerings:

97. "'By Allah, we were truly in an error manifest,

98. "'When we held you as equals with the Lord of the Worlds;

99. "'And our seducers were only those who were steeped in guilt.

100. "'Now, then, we have none to intercede (for us),

101. "'Nor a single friend to feel (for us).

102. "'Now if we only had a chance of return we shall truly be of those who believe!'"


103. Verily in this is a Sign but most of them do not believe.

104. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

105. The people of Noah rejected the apostles.

106. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

107. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

108. "So fear Allah, and obey me.

109. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds:

110. "So fear Allah, and obey me."

111. They said: "Shall we believe in thee when it is the meanest that follow thee?"

112. He said: "And what do I know as to what they do?

113. "Their account is only with my Lord, if ye could (but) understand.

114. "I am not one to drive away those who believe.

115. "I am sent only to warn plainly in public."

116. They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned (to death)."

117. He said: "O my Lord! truly my people have rejected me.

118. "Judge Thou, then, between me and them openly, and deliver me and those of the Believers who are with me."

119. So We delivered him and those with him, in the Ark filled (with all creatures).

120. Thereafter We drowned those who remained behind.


121. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

122. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

123. The 'Ad (people) rejected the apostles.

124. Behold, their brother Hud said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

125. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

126. "So fear Allah and obey me.

127. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

128. "Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?

129. "And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?

130. "And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?

131. "Now fear Allah, and obey me.

132. "Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.

133. "Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-

134. "And Gardens and Springs.

135. "Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day."

136. They said: "It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!

137. "This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,

138. "And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!"

139. So they rejected him, and We destroyed them.

Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

140. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

141. The Thamud (people) rejected the apostles.

142. Behold, their brother Salih said to them: "Will you not fear ((Allah))?

143. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

144. "So fear Allah, and obey me.

145. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

146. "Will ye be left secure, in (the enjoyment of) all that ye have here?-

147. "Gardens and Springs,

148. "And corn-fields and date-palms with spathes near breaking (with the weight of fruit)?

149. "And ye carve houses out of (rocky) mountains with great skill.

150. "But fear Allah and obey me;

151. "And follow not the bidding of those who are extravagant,-

152. "Who make mischief in the land, and mend not (their ways)."

153. They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!

154. "Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"

155. He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.

156. "Touch her not with harm, lest the Penalty of a Great Day seize you."

157. But they ham-strung her: then did they become full of regrets.

158. But the Penalty seized them.

Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

159. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.

160. The people of Lut rejected the apostles.

161. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

162. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

163. "So fear Allah and obey me.

164. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds.

165. "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,

166. "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

167. They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!"

168. He said: "I do detest your doings."

169. "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!"

170. So We delivered him and his family,- all

171. Except an old woman who lingered behind.

172. But the rest We destroyed utterly.

173. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!


174. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

175. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might Most Merciful.

176. The Companions of the Wood rejected the apostles.

177. Behold, Shu'aib said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

178. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

179. "So fear Allah and obey me.

180. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

181. "Give just measure, and cause no loss (to others by fraud).

182. "And weigh with scales true and upright.

183. "And withhold not things justly due to men, nor do evil in the land, working mischief.

184. "And fear Him Who created you and (who created) the generations before (you)"

185. They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!

186. "Thou art no more than a mortal like us, and indeed we think thou art a liar!

187. "Now cause a piece of the sky to fall on us, if thou art truthful!"

188. He said: "My Lord knows best what ye do."

189. But they rejected him. Then the punishment of a day of overshadowing gloom seized them, and that was the Penalty of a Great Day.

center]190. Verily in that is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

191. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.[/center]

192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:

193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-

194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.

195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.


196. Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.

197. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?

198. Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,

199. And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.

200. Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.

201. They will not believe in it until they see the grievous Penalty;

202. But the (Penalty) will come to them of a sudden, while they perceive it not;

203. Then they will say: "Shall we be respited?"

204. Do they then ask for Our Penalty to be hastened on?

205. Seest thou? If We do let them enjoy (this life) for a few years,

206. Yet there comes to them at length the (Punishment) which they were promised!

207. It will profit them not that they enjoyed (this life)!

208. Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners -

209. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

210. No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation):

211. It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it).

212. Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it.

213. So call not on any other god with Allah, or thou wilt be among those under the Penalty.

214. And admonish thy nearest kinsmen,

215. And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee.

216. Then if they disobey thee, say: "I am free (of responsibility) for what ye do!"

217. And put thy trust on the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,-

218. Who seeth thee standing forth (in prayer),

219. And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,

220. For it is He Who heareth and knoweth all things.

221. Shall I inform you, (O people!), on whom it is that the evil ones descend?

222. They descend on every lying, wicked person,

223. (Into whose ears) they pour hearsay vanities, and most of them are liars.

224. And the Poets,- It is those straying in Evil, who follow them:

225. Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?-

226. And that they say what they practise not?-

227. Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!


I know it's a large chapter, but I think it serves my point just like your article served yours. Please read it, and you may find something interesting.

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
03-30-2005, 12:49 AM
There are a few points to note here:
1. The belief in Prophet Moses as a prophet was amongst the Children of Israel before this event at Mount Sinai
2. There were no witnesses to Prophet Moses claiming Prophethood either! Not even his family! The issue is not that Moses was a prophet, but that the law was given directly from God to the people. It did not pass through a prophet at all.
Thus, Prophet Moses was in the same position as Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Both first recieved revelation on their own, at a mountain as a sheperd. As I pointed out, the law was not given to Moses alone, but to all. To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation, but a national revelation was needed to procure the law.

Your claim that no one witnessed Prophet Muhamad's prophethood is not correct at all. He performed many signs in public that were witnessed by thousands. Whether Muhammed did anything miraculous isn't really the issue. He couldn't have been a prophet because of two reasons:
1) The time of prophecy had ended with the building of the second temple. Jesus and Muhammed came long after.

2) He rewrote what HaShem Himself had given, and commanded as eternal for the Jews. HaShem told us to listen to every prophet provided that he does not change the Law. Then Muhammed comes to the Jews and tells them that he alone recieved a revelation that HaShem was wrong. Martain Luther tried the same. They both re-rejected the Jews for not accepting their new ideas that contradicted God himself. There is simply no reason to listen to a Man over God.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-30-2005, 02:12 AM
Greetings SF2K,

The issue is not that Moses was a prophet, but that the law was given directly from God to the people. It did not pass through a prophet at all. As I pointed out, the law was not given to Moses alone, but to all. To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation, but a national revelation was needed to procure the law.
That's fine, but the point you were making, and the point specifically made in the article you provided was that of acceptance and belief. namely that the validity of Judaism is much greater than other religions because the claims were witnessed. But as I pointed out, and as you agreed:

To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation
Thus, what does the 'national revelation 'add to your point?


He couldn't have been a prophet because of two reasons:
1) The time of prophecy had ended with the building of the second temple. Jesus and Muhammed came long after.
i think you provided the source for this before, but if you could briefly quote it again, that would be useful.

And what features are necessary to end the age of prophecy?


2) He rewrote what HaShem Himself had given, and commanded as eternal for the Jews. HaShem told us to listen to every prophet provided that he does not change the Law.
I'd appreciate the source for this one too please.


Then Muhammed comes to the Jews and tells them that he alone recieved a revelation that HaShem was wrong.
Now you know as well as I do that that claim is not correct. HaShem revealed the Qur'an himself and within it gave very clear instructions to the Jews about what was happening.


They both re-rejected the Jews for not accepting their new ideas that contradicted God himself. There is simply no reason to listen to a Man over God.
And as you know, I am not advocating that. That's a strawman, since Prophet Muhammad was not speaking of himself....

53:3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

53:4. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

I understand that you do not view Prophet Muhammad saws as a Prophet. Therefore, that should be the focus of our discussion.

mansio
03-30-2005, 07:04 AM
Salâm Ansar ul Adl,

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.
The most sold translation of the Quran in France is that of a lady Denise Masson. Her translation has been agreed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Ahmed Deedat uses it in the French translation of his lectures.
Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj).
If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran. Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran.
We have a good example of that with the Mormons. Their prophet Joseph Smith found the Book of Mormon under the directions of a heavenly messenger. That book is to be found in religious bookstores as the Quran is. But where are the plates some people swear they have seen ?
They have been taken back to heaven ! That event didn't happen in the sixth century but about 150 years ago and millions believe in it.

kadafi
03-30-2005, 10:36 AM
Salâm Ansar ul Adl,

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.
The most sold translation of the Quran in France is that of a lady Denise Masson. Her translation has been agreed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Ahmed Deedat uses it in the French translation of his lectures.
Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj). Greetings Mansio,

Yes, that's correct. The translation of Masson has been widely acclaimed in France. The reason why her translation was approved by the council and recommended was 'cause unlike other (french) translations -- she uses the word God in order to abolish the disseminated misconception that Allah is a moon god.

However, this does not signify that her translation is accurate. In spite of the fact that I haven't read her commentaries regarding the Dhul Qarnayn passages; I do have to note that she is grossly incorrect regardin' her interpretation (and assertion). This assertion shatteres in pieces if one pursues a honest research and compares the assertion vis-a-vis with the evidence acquired.

You can read the article produced by Dr. M S M Saifullah who addresses this allegation at:
The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/BBhorned.html)

He concluded with the following statement:
It has been claimed by Nöldeke and subsequent scholarship that the Qur'anic story of Dhul-Qarnayn was borrowed from the Christian Legend attributed to Jacob of Serugh. Internal evidence however shows that it was composed after 628 CE. Investigations by Hunnius, Kmoskó and Czeglédy have conclusively shown that the writer had ex eventu (i.e., a prophesy or predication after the event) knowledge of Khazar invasion of Armenia. The text provides no date by which the terminus ad quem (a final limiting point in time) can be fixed. It is not only important to know the dates of composition of the individual works that are used to establish the theories of borrowing, but to also understand the difference between the Qur'an and the Qur'anic commentaries.



If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran. Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran. This is incorrect my friend.

We have Qu'ranic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijara (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE) and they all bear a striking resemblance when compared with the Uthman Qurans.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Furthermore, you misunderstood the concept of why Uthman (May Allah be pleased with him burned down the other Qurans)

This is discussed in the article 'Versions of the Qur'an?' located at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html

Here is a small excerpt from the article that more or less summarizes the action of Uthman:

The Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.

Now a few words on Qira'at:

A Qira'at is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode. The various methods have all been traced back to the Prophet(P) through a number of Sahaabah who were most noted for their Qur'anic recitations. That is, these Sahaabah recited the Qur'an to the Prophet(P) or in his presence and received his approval. Among them were the following: Ubayy Ibn K'ab, 'Alee Ibn Abi Taalib, Zayd Ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, Abu ad-Dardaa and Abu Musaa al-Ash'aree. Many of the other Sahaabah learned from these masters. For example, Ibn 'Abbaas, the master commentator of the Qur'an among the Sahaabah, learned from both Ubayy and Zayd.

"The orthodoxy took into consideration various factors for accepting a recitation authentic. It had to fulfill three conditions and if any of the conditions were missing such a recitation was classified as Shâdhdh (unusual).

1 The first condition was that the recitation have an authentic chain of narration in which the chain of narrators was continuous, the narrators were all known to be righteous and they were all knwon to possess good memories. It was also required that the recitation be conveyed by a large number of narrators on each level of the chain of narration below the level of Sahaabah (the condition of Tawaatur). Narrations which had authentic chains but lacked the condition of Tawaatur were accepted as explanations (Tafseer) of the Sahaabah but were not considered as methods of reciting the Qur'ân. As for the narrations which did not even have an authentic chain of narration, they were classified as Baatil (false) and rejected totally.

2 The seond condition was that the variations in recitations match known Arabic grammatical constructions. Unusual constructions could be verified by their existence in passages of pre-Islamic prose or poetry.

3 The third condition required the recitation to coincide with the script of one of the copies of the Qur'ân distributed during the era of Caliph 'Uthman. Hence differences which result from dot placement (i.e., ta'lamoon and ya'lamoon)are considered acceptable provided the other conditions are met. A recitation of a construction for which no evidence could be found would be classified Shaadhdh. This classification did not mean that all aspects of the recitation was considered Shaadhdh. It only meant that the unverified constructions were considered Shaadhdh."

So in short my friend,
In short, the reason why he burned the other copies was because new nations, which were non-Arabs, embraced Islam. And they used to make mistakes in the recitation of the Qur'an. Therefore, he resulted to the above measure, thereby, united Arabs and non-Arabs under the same recitation and scripture as the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, commanded the Companions.

The authencity of the Qur'an is indisputable in the academic world. We have two elements of authenticity that any other World Scripture lacks.

The famous Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir wrote in his book 'The Life Of Mohammad':
The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.

drian Brockett said in his article 'The Value of Hafs And Warsh Transmissions For The Textual History Of The Qur'an':
The transmission of the Qur'an after the death of Muhammad was essentially static, rather than organic. There was a single text, and nothing significant, not even allegedly abrogated material, could be taken out nor could anything be put in.

Bernard Lewis in Islam in History makes a great point regardin' the transmission method used by the Muslims:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.

root
03-30-2005, 09:03 PM
In short, the reason why he burned the other copies was because new nations, which were non-Arabs, embraced Islam. And they used to make mistakes in the recitation of the Qur'an. Therefore, he resulted to the above measure, thereby, united Arabs and non-Arabs under the same recitation and scripture as the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, commanded the Companions.

The authencity of the Qur'an is indisputable in the academic world. We have two elements of authenticity that any other World Scripture lacks.

This issue seems to crop up time & time again. Recently, given the archeological evidence to support a "mis quote" that the parting of the red sea was not actually the red sea, but the "reefs" which by a remarkable coincidence evidence of chariot's were found beneath with "volcanic Ash". Makes me wonder as an atheist what "other" misqoutes their are.

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-31-2005, 12:31 AM
:sl: Mansio,
br Kadafi has answered most of your points, I'll just give a few words as well.

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.
Religious borrowing is a very poor attempt to try to discredit the Qur'an. it is a notion completely ignorant of all historical circumstances at the time of the prophet Muhammad pbuh, as well as the details of the revelation, itself.
You may refer to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Qurancopiedmyth
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7582

Simmilarities between the major scriptures only prove the Qur'an's claim that they are from God. God revealed His messages to humanity, so why should we be surprised at simmilarities?

The Qur’an is not a derivation from the Judeo/Christian scriptures as claimed by the orientalists and as evidenced by the following...


Some Information Given in the Qur’an that are Not Mentioned in the Bible or Old Testament:



1. Some of the Prophets mentioned in the Qur’an i.e. Hud for the Thamud and Salih for the `Ad people are not even mentioned in the Bible.


2. Information given in the Qur’an about Prophet Ibrahim specifically about his teachings on monotheism and the resultant struggle is not found in the Bible.


3. Jesus speaking in the cradle confirming the chastity of his mother, his giving life to the birds made in clay by God's permission, the table descending from heaven.


4. Musa traveling to the "meeting place of two seas".


5. The incident of Pharaoh's plan to kill Musa and that a "believer" in Pharaoh's court dissuaded him from carrying out his plan.


6. Musa striking the 12 springs for each of the Jewish tribe.


7. The magicians in Pharaoh’s court died for their belief in God.


8. Qur’an contradicts accounts given in the Bible:


9. The angels visiting Ibrahim on their way to Lut;


10. The preaching of Nuh was specifically monotheism according to Qur’an;


11. Qur’an categorically denies that concept of trinity and confirm that Jesus was no more than a Prophet - not god, not the son-of-god and not the trinity;


12. Qur’an categorically states that Jesus was not crucified nor killed;


13. Qur’an states that all the prophets are noble men sent by Allah and clears all of the prophets from evil intention or evil actions, as against what can be found in the Bible.


14. Qur’an testifies that all the prophets of God were sincere to their mission for which they were sent by God, and never betrayed their mission as suggested in the Bible such as Moses, Haroun, or sinned as in the case of Lut, David, Solomon and others.



More Details are Given in the Qur’an as Compared to the Bible



1. Incidents relating to Prophet Nuh.


2. Mary being asked to pray to Allah - implying that Mary is a human being who require the mercy of God.


3. The whole story of Yoosuf, peace and blessings be upon him, delivered in a spiritual atmosphere with more details of his life, that is not found in the Bible.



It is true that some of the historical incidents are mentioned in the Bible and the Qur’an, but this does not mean that the Qur’an picked them from these sources. Instead it is a confirmation of the events of the past but looking at them with a clear vision. There was no good library or museum in Makkah in the first place and the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, could not read or write. There were no scholars and philologists in that place to unravel the secrets of ancient work to the would-be Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.


While casually recognizing that there are new elements in the Qur’an, the orientalists did seem to have never paid attention to find out the sources of these elements. If they had done so, the orientalists would surely have found reason to see that the assumptions under which they have hitherto been laboring so diligently and impressively need revision.


Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj).
I suppose what you are trying to say is that the story of Dhul Qarnayn is similar to that of Alexander the Great, and therefore the Qur'an copied the story of Alexander the Great, and merely changed the name.
I'm sure you can see the flaws in this claim now. But let me just make sure we're clear on this. There are several points in the story of Dhul Qarnain which make it impossible for it to have been Alexander the Great. The similarities you speak of are nothing more than speculation and guesses.


If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran.
Actually it's not, and you should not make statements about something you don't know. The Qur'an was revealed in many different ways, and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh had SIXTY scribes recording for him and it was memorized by ALL companions. Nothing was thrown away.


Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran.
The case with Uthman is often misunderstood. In fact it aided in the preservation of the Qur'an. As the Muslim empire spread across the world, people began to differ about the recitation. So Uthman rd burned all unauthorized copies and from then on, every one had to get permission and approval when copying out from the Qur'an. The ummah was united upon the pure Qur'an, and all unauthorized copies were burned with the companions standing by watching. This is a powerful testimony to the authenticity of Uthman rd's copy.


For a solid understanding of this subject, read "The History of the Qur'anic Text" by M. M. Al-Azami

morrissey
04-08-2005, 01:24 AM
Hi Ansar, thankyou for linking to this site from J4J....

Above you quote that the Quran has added to what the Jews have in their Torah. The Jews were commanded not to add or subtract from it, yet these differences in your quote above mean possibly 2 things: 1 - The Jews re-wrote their Torah, or 2 - The Quran goes against G-d's commandment not to add or subtract from His Torah. What proof do you have that the Jews re-wrote their Torah? (as in physical/archaeological, without a doubt proof). Someone (even if they claim to be a prophet) just making a 'claim' that they did is just that - an unsubstantiated claim.


Do you know how the Jews have recorded their Torah word-perfect through the centuries, meticulously ensuring each one is identical? (http://www.torah.net/eng/kids/know/torah.htm) Millions of Jews around the world (obviously the majority of whom have never met, so therefore it is impossible for them to conspire) have identical copies of the Torah - if there was a difference it might be in the spelling of a word with the same meaning (eg color/colour in english), and I think the most differences they have ever found between 2 Sefer Torahs is about 9 spelling differences, as I have given in the example of the english word above. If a Torah Scroll is found to have an error, it is forbidden to use it, it is not 'kosher' and has to be religiously disposed of. It is useless.

Why, therefore, is it claimed by your religion that the Jews have corrupted their Torah? From my experience, they are obsessed to the point of almost neurotic ;) that their Torah doesnt become corrupted.

I am not Jewish by the way, I am an ex-christian who has been seeking her true Creator and discovered the pathway to Him through the Teachings of Judaism.

Best wishes
Rebecca

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 01:32 AM
Greetings and welcome to the forum Morrissey.
Perhaps you would like to introduce yourself in the appropriate section.

As far as your point on the textual integrity of the Torah, I think that deserves its own thread because if we deal with it, we need to do justice to the topic.

You can go ahead and make that thread and God-willingly, I will comment in it soon.

As far as the belief of the Muslims is considered, it is believed that the previous scriptures were sent by Godm and it was a test for the people to see if they cpould preserve it.

But as I have shown before, even the Torah records the rebellious and corrupt behaviour that spread amongst a group of the Children of Israel who did not practice the truth as was revealed by God. It would come as no surprise that such people who took little effort in following God's laws would take little effort as well in preserving God's laws.

That is the basic overview, but I would like to provide concrete proof, insha'Allah in the appropriate thread.

As far as your original inquiry on J4J is concerned, I would like to know if you have found the answer in this thread because you seem to have dropped the question. Namely, the question of Prophet Muhammad pbuh's reception of revelation as a person.

If you have anymore questions on that topic, I would be happy to discuss them in this thread.

Peace

morrissey
04-08-2005, 02:42 AM
Not really, I'm sorry Ansar but you didnt really find the answer I was looking for in that thread...

Maybe had the entire muslim population experienced the revelation of the Quran, as opposed to just Mohammed, then I might raise an eyebrow and think: 'hmmm...maybe there's something in that..."

But having walked away from christianity, because I couldnt accept a religion based on the revelation given to Paul, and the life story of a man called Jesus that I had to believe in without undeniable proof of his existence, else go to eternal ****ation, I find it equally as difficult to accept Islam, which is also based on just one man's revelations.

If anything, your answer, which I first responded to, only confirmed the belief that Mohammed is a false prophet to the Jewish people, because he sought to change the Torah, and his subsequent teachings sought to contradict the Torah. This is the evidence of a false prophet. Devarim 13 discusses this.

I honestly dont have anything against you, and everyone has their right to seek G-d in their own way....but as the thread title goes: "why do you reject Islam?" - I dont think it's a matter of rejecting it, it's a matter of finding it unnecessary in my path to G-d. You have your path, I have mine, why should I change something that is working perfectly well for me? As the saying goes: "if it aint broke , dont try and fix it" :D

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 04:22 AM
Maybe had the entire muslim population experienced the revelation of the Quran, as opposed to just Mohammed, then I might raise an eyebrow and think: 'hmmm...maybe there's something in that..."
Tell me, did no one from the Children of Israel believe in Prophet Moses pbuh until that event? Is that when he acheived his followers? Or did they believe in him at the beginning because of the truth in his message?

People trhoughout history have asked God for a 'clear sign'. It is recorded in the Qur'an. But those who do so ignore the temporal nature of this life as a test. God answers their request in the Qur'an:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=7402&postcount=65

God gave Prophet Moses miracles indeed, as did all the Prophets, but did they ever perform the miracle first? No. They preached their message even until the continual request of the unbelievers for a sign. Then God would grant some miracles. But if you think about it, the Qur'an mentions hundreds of nations who witnessed the miracles of their Prophets, but none of them belived any differently before or after. Those who were blind to the truth remained blind to the truth.

And the miracle at Mount Sinai was a miracle like any other.

Let's talk about the Children of Israel. According to what you have said about the miracle, this should have given the Children of Israel concrete faith in their religion. They should have been completely devoted to the laws if miracles are as important as you mention.

But they weren't. The Torah itself describes their rebellious attitude.

Devarim 9:5-13
Not because of your righteousness or because of the honesty of your heart, do you come to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and in order to establish the matter that the Lord swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You shall know that, not because of your righteousness, the Lord, your God, gives you this land to possess it; for you are a stiffnecked people.

Remember do not forget, how you angered the Lord, your God, in the desert; from the day that you went out of the land of Egypt, until you came to this place, you have been rebelling against the Lord.
At Horeb, you angered the Lord, and the Lord was incensed with you to destroy you.

When I ascended the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord made with you, I remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water; and the Lord gave me two stone tablets, inscribed by the finger of God, and on them was [inscribed] according to all the words that the Lord spoke with you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant.

And the Lord said to me, "Arise, descend quickly from here, for your people whom you have brought out of Egypt have become corrupt; they have quickly deviated from the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten image."
And the Lord spoke to me [further], saying, "I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people.


Moses told his people:
Devarim 31:29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

And Islam was not the first to bring the charge of corrupting the scriptures against the Children of Israel:
Yirmiyahu 23:36 You pervert the words of the living God, the Lord of Hosts, our God

So we all know that the conduct of the Children of Israel cannot as a whole be described as devoted to God, despite this miracle you describe. In fact their conduct can be described as rather rebellious.

Jews make it seem as though the miracle at Mount Sinai served two purposes:
-Evidence of the truth of Judaism
-Elevation of the Children of Israel over other nations


But the fact is that all those people who were spoken to at Mount Sinai were already followers of Prophet Moses. They didn't need this miracle to believe, because they already did believe! They accompanied him out of egypt. They were his followers since day 1. So this cannot be taken as evidence for Judaism, otherwise God would have performed this miracle at the beginning when Prophet Moses was struggling to gain followers.

The truth of the matter is that this revelation served two purposes:
-Revelation of the laws to the Children of Israel
-Sign of God's infinite power i.e. deterrence from evil

The followers of Prophet Moses pbuh believed in him because of the truth of his message. but unfortunately, there were many corrupt people amongst his followers. Despite this sign, they continued in their disobedience to God, as is recorded in the Tanakh.

So why do you ask for a similar miracle to confirm your belief when the true followers of Prophet Moses never required it? Shouldn't you judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself?

And I'm sure that's what you have done, when you became a Noahide. I don't think you left Christianity because you learned about the event at Mount Sinai.

And please read this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=12809&postcount=35

:w:

morrissey
04-08-2005, 08:58 AM
I might as well go back to being a christian if you ask me to have blind faith and just trust that your religion is correct. I need proof - like undeniable, 'ohmygosh' that is extremely persuasive. Not just "You will go to H*ll eternally if you dont just believe me". Gosh, flashbacks of christianity or what!

Leaving christianity was an extremely painful, long drawnout experience, where by I now have little to no contact with my father's side of the family. I spent a long time searching. And then nothing was hidden or mysterious when I started to learn about Judaism, except G-d Himself. The Truth flashed at me in neon lights - it was undeniable - I have never needed to have blind faith whilst I've learnt about Judaism. It's like having something in my soul uncovered, like it was there all along, it just needed to be revealled.

The Jews trusted Moses because he promised to fulfil for them the ancient promises God made to their forefathers, Avraham, Isaac and Jakob. They were Noachides who knew that God had greater things promised to them, and they trusted that Moses would lead them to the place where they would receive this Covenant from God Himself. This is the miracle of Sinai, Moses proved Himself by bringing them to experience this, en masse. God gave them all the Torah, Moses *lead* them to the Giving of the Torah, because he proved the most worthy to do so.

The Jews dont expect me to believe them, but I cannot not believe them. The Jews just expect mankind to trust the Covenant that G-d made to all mankind, which is why when one reads the 7 Laws, one thinks 'but that's really obvious - I could have thought of that myself'. Of course you could have thought it up yourself. It is a Covenant inscribed in your soul, which is represented by the Rainbow, the sign.

Ansar, I dont think you truly judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself, in reference to Judaism - you show yourself to be uneducated about Torah Judaism, which is why you have gone to the J4J site to learn.

I dont take Judaism lightly. Judaism begs to be disected and questioned in order to gain understanding. There is never a question I have asked of a Rabbi where they have responded "Have blind faith", as you ask of me, and as christians ask of me.

Ansar, If the Jews corrupted their scriptures, why would the only part not corrupted be the part which you are trying to use to prove that they did? Surely if someone is trying to change a document to suit their 'wicked ways', they would paint themselves in a prettier light? It just seems absurd.

Also, Ansar, you claim that millions of muslims are corrupt because they support terrorism against innocent people - What is Allah going to do about it? The Jews dont get away with it, according to you, but you think the multitudes of Muslims I see crowding the streets in different middle eastern cities etc, after terroist attacks (eg, 911), shouting 'death to Jews' (G-d forbid) and 'death to America' (G-d forbid!) will get away with it? What does your Quran say about what will happen to these murderous venomous people, which you say have nothing to do with the Islam you are a part of?

morrissey
04-08-2005, 09:01 AM
Ansar, my baby brother has had 2 near misses with suicide bombers. Only by the Infinite Mercies of HaShem has he been saved. Once he was 20 mtrs away from the edge of the blast site - he'd walked into a shop, Baruch HaShem!!, and the other time he miraculously overslept and missed the bus he caught every day to work, Baruch HaSHem!!. G-d is looking after him, and the G-d that protects him, is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.

Brother_Mujahid
04-08-2005, 09:46 AM
is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.
Allah is not a god of the muslims, he is the universal god to the whole of creation and mankind.

just reading from the above, id like to add. When any prophet is sent, the first thing they do is to call to the oneness of the creator, the prophet will acknoledge the messagers and their messages before them.

did you know that in the quran it goes to great length in mentioning the life of musa (moses), far greater than it mentions any of the other prophets.

I think you should read what islam says about this great prophet throught the verses of the Quran, they will be similar to the story that the jews give.

morrissey
04-08-2005, 10:16 AM
When I say "G-d of the Jews", I do not mean that is their G-d alone. They are the Light to the Nations, and The G-d that they serve, is the G-d that I choose to serve. G-d is the G-d of all mankind, because He is the Creator of all - He is the G-d of even every grain of sand, every atom in existence.....etc etc....

But I learn of this G-d from the Jews..... that is why I word it that way....

I am continuously fulfilled through Judaism, and I'm not even Jewish....I dont need Islam, I see the teachings of Judaism written on my soul....

I cannot see any good reason to change this? If Islam teaches that I need to convert, I need to know why....and no one can sufficiently show me why. It's like sitting at a banquet table covered in the greatest food and drink, and someone saying to me...."you look hungry, you look like you need food".....I then look at the food in front of me and think "no I dont"...

Brother_Mujahid
04-08-2005, 10:19 AM
then if your so certain this is the truth then why have you not accepted and embraced it?

morrissey
04-08-2005, 10:32 AM
Judaism doesnt expect the nations to take on the yoke of the 613 Laws. G-d created the stricter set of rules for the Jews, in order that their stringent disciplined lifestyle will safeguard and preserve the Covenant that G-d made with all mankind to Noach - the 7 Laws, for which the Rainbow is the sign. Being 'Chosen' isnt an 'exclusive club that only get into heaven' - The Jews have been the servants of the Nations, and G-d has allowed them to be preserved throughout ancient history, to this day, for our (the nations) benefit.

The Jews teach that the righteous of all Nations have a place in the world to come. You dont have to become Jewish to believe in Judaism.

Brother_Mujahid
04-08-2005, 01:47 PM
Judaism doesnt expect the nations to take on the yoke of the 613 Laws. G-d created the stricter set of rules for the Jews, in order that their stringent disciplined lifestyle will safeguard and preserve the Covenant that G-d made with all mankind to Noach - the 7 Laws
tha sounds no different to having the blind faith in christianity which you left. Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us.

In essence every muslim is a follower of the message sent by musa. We acknowlegde all the prophets that came before us.

SpaceFalcon2001
04-08-2005, 09:09 PM
Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us. Fear of God also defines a noachide. They simply do not have the many other rules of the Jews place upon them.

Even many Jews are exempted from certain commandments:
Women from time based commandments, non-priests from priestly commandments, non-nazerites from nazerine commandments, non-kings from kingly commandments.

Are you suggesting that someone who is not a priest is bound by the laws of a priest? Of course not, that doesn't make sense. If God tells the priests to do something specific, should everyone do it? Everyone is not a priest! Thus, their attempt to do a commandment that does not belong to them (such as saying the priestly blessing over a congregation) is contrary to the purpose of the law!

Overall, the Mosaic part of the law is specific to Jews, but this does not mean that the noachide are lawless, or that their laws are insignificant, simply that those laws are all that they are bound to.

Just the same, I have a hard time believing Islam does not do the same thing. Are there no laws that are specific to the Caliph? To Men? To Women? Of course there are! For example, men have a slightly different dress code than women, here Sharia already makes a distinction between the two, but this doesn't mean that they aren't equal, or that they should be following the other's law.

However, if one were to believe you, these laws are good for all mankind with no distinctions, and you could propose that men should cover themselves up as much as women, which would be a contradiction to the Quran.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 09:20 PM
:sl:
Greetings Morrissey,
May I advise that the discussion would remain more objective if you responded direcctly to my points.

Let's examine what you have said.

I might as well go back to being a christian if you ask me to have blind faith and just trust that your religion is correct.
I would like to know where I have EVER endorsed blind faith? I am sure you can appreciate the difference between blind faith and evaluating the validity of the message based upon its content. The latter is a logical algorith for discovering the truth while the former is a blatant insult to one's intellect.

My religion is actually vehemently opposed to blind faith and classifies it as the path of the misguided.

The Qur'an states about those who do not use their intellect: "They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not.* They are like cattles--nay, they are in worse error: for they are heedless." [7:179].

The Qur'an makes it more clear by the following verses:

"Here is a book which We have sent down to you, full of blessings, that you may meditate and reflect on its signs (ayaths), and that people of understanding may receive admonition." [38:29. “In the sight of Allah, people who know are not equal to those who do not know." [39:9]

Allah chose Talut as king of Jews on the grounds of his knowledge and physical ability. [2:247]. Similarly, Prophet Daud [2:251 and 2:80], Yusuf [12:22], Prophet Musa [18:65] were selected by Allah due to their knowledge.

"Behold!* In the creation of the heavens and earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs [ayath] for people of understanding and intellect." [3:190]. "Do they see nothing in the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah has created?" [7:185]


The “signs [ayath] “of God, to which the Qur’an in the above verse and other verses constantly refers, are primarily the phenomena of the natural world.* The Qur'an is Allah's speech and a book of guidance in human vernacular form and its parts are called ayath. Similarly, the universe is a book of Allah in the material form and its parts are called ayath in the Qur’an.* Islam does not draw a clear line of demarcation between the natural and supernatural.* The physical universe is an integral part of the Muslim's religious universe.* Humanity has to explore the universe and its laws in order to know God.* Therefore, understanding the spiritual significance of an active nature (kiyan) is an important stepping-stone on the road to Islamic spirituality.* The sun, moon, and stars are not mere heavenly bodies but religious realities that participate in the Islamic vision of the universe.* In the Qur'an, Allah even takes them as witness on the Last Day:*
“So, I call the receding stars to witness.”* [81:15].

Both Qur'an and nature urge human beings to worship God:
“We shall show them our portents on the horizon and within themselves until it will be manifested unto them that it is the truth...” [Qur’an 41:53].
Therefore, a contemplative attitude towards nature is a form of worship.

If you re-read my response carefully, I am sure you will see that what I am advocating is very different from blind faith.


I need proof - like undeniable, 'ohmygosh' that is extremely persuasive. Not just "You will go to H*ll eternally if you dont just believe me". Gosh, flashbacks of christianity or what!
The reasons you are having flashbacks of Christianity is because you are only thinking about Christianity. I never made that statement about Hellfire.

I think you have also not considered the concepts I emphasized in my previous, which Is why I encourage you to respond directly to my points.

There are miracles in Islam as well, just as there is Mount Sinai for the Jews. But remember that such miracles are not what convinced the sincere followers of the Prophets.

Did Prophet Moses gain his followers before or after Mount Sinai??


Leaving christianity was an extremely painful, long drawnout experience, where by I now have little to no contact with my father's side of the family. I spent a long time searching. And then nothing was hidden or mysterious when I started to learn about Judaism, except G-d Himself. The Truth flashed at me in neon lights - it was undeniable - I have never needed to have blind faith whilst I've learnt about Judaism. It's like having something in my soul uncovered, like it was there all along, it just needed to be revealled.
Naturally, this would be expected from any story of conversion, and I congratualte you on your courage to accept Judaism.

But perhaps you could explain to us, the three most convincing factors in your conversion to Judaism, either any inadequacies in Christianity or any positive features of Judaism.

I think this would be a very important point.


The Jews trusted Moses because he promised to fulfil for them the ancient promises God made to their forefathers, Avraham, Isaac and Jakob.
And you know as well as I do, that a man who promises to simply fulfill ancient promises is not evidence for the validity of a claim, but it is a claim itself.


They were Noachides who knew that God had greater things promised to them, and they trusted that Moses would lead them to the place where they would receive this Covenant from God Himself.
Why did they trust Prophet Moses? Would you describe these people as weak minded because they believed in him without recieving direct revelation from God? Would you, thus, describe the closest followers of Prophet Moses as 'blind followers'?


This is the miracle of Sinai, Moses proved Himself by bringing them to experience this, en masse. God gave them all the Torah, Moses *lead* them to the Giving of the Torah, because he proved the most worthy to do so.
Again, you are labelling the miracle at Mount Sinai as the evidence for their faith, yet it is clearly not so, from a simple glance at history.

The Miracle at Mount Sinai was for those who were already his followers, i.e. they already believed in him and had faith in him. WHY?

They believed in him because of the content of his message.

Are miracles as important as you make them seem?


- if they were, we should have expected the armies of Pharoah to believe in Prophet Moses after witnessing the stick-snake, or the splitting of the sea
-if they were, we should have expected the followers of Prophet Moses to come to him only after the miracles
-if they were, we should have expected Prophet Moses to perform the miracles at the very initiation of his mission
-if they were, we should have expected a dramatic change on the conduct of the Children of Israel, one of devotion to the laws of God, rather than the rebellious conduct which the Tanakh records


The Jews dont expect me to believe them, but I cannot not believe them. The Jews just expect mankind to trust the Covenant that G-d made to all mankind, which is why when one reads the 7 Laws, one thinks 'but that's really obvious - I could have thought of that myself'. Of course you could have thought it up yourself. It is a Covenant inscribed in your soul, which is represented by the Rainbow, the sign.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the reasoning behind the highlighted statement.

I would also like to comment on a very important point you raised.

Yes, God's laws are known to human beings because God has implanted in every human being the fitrah, an innate sense of good, much like a moral compass. It may become clouded by our desires and remain unused, but it is there in every human being and the way of submission is the natural way which our fitrah points to.

The Qur'an says:
3:114 They(the muslims) believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is maruf, and forbid what is munkar; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Munkar is evil, and Maruf refers to what is known by all humanity as righteous and good. So the call to Islam, is a call to one's true nature of good, given by God.


Ansar, I dont think you truly judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself, in reference to Judaism - you show yourself to be uneducated about Torah Judaism, which is why you have gone to the J4J site to learn.
I think it would be very foolish to think that the knowledgeable need not learn. Learning is an ongoing process. I fail to see how my striving for interfaith discussions reflects ignorance on my part.

I chose Islam, not because my parents were Muslim, but because I saw the truth in Islam after approaching the universe with logic and reason.

As far as the content of the message of Judaism, I believe that Judaism as taught by Prophet Moses pbuh was Islam, as were all the Prophets of God. The message brought by God's human guides is the same eternal message of Islam.

Islam is not a different religion. Islam is the final message and the seal of the messages of the previous Prophets. I believe in Prophet Moses and his message, and therefore profess myself to be one of his followers.

Please contemplate the following verses:
Suratul Baqarah:
130. And who turns away from the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham) (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

131. When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."

132. And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Ibrâhim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya'qûb (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

133. Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qûb (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilâh (God - Allâh), the Ilâh (God) of your fathers, Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), One Ilâh (God), and to Him we submit (in Islâm)."

134. That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

135. And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham), Hanifa [Islâmic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allâh (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (those who worshipped others along with Allâh - see V.2:105)."

136. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."

137. So if they believe in the like of that which you believe, then they are rightly guided, but if they turn away, then they are only in opposition. So Allâh will suffice you against them. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

138. [Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allâh (Islâm) and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allâh's? And we are His worshippers.


I dont take Judaism lightly. Judaism begs to be disected and questioned in order to gain understanding. There is never a question I have asked of a Rabbi where they have responded "Have blind faith", as you ask of me, and as christians ask of me.
Please do NOT put words in my mouth! I never said "have blind faith"! That is dynamically opposed to the values of my religion.

I request that you re-read my post and answer my points directly, as it seems that you have completely misinterpreted by message, or are replacing my words with your past impression of Christians.


Ansar, If the Jews corrupted their scriptures, why would the only part not corrupted be the part which you are trying to use to prove that they did? Surely if someone is trying to change a document to suit their 'wicked ways', they would paint themselves in a prettier light? It just seems absurd.
The parts of the Torah that muslims believe in are those that are confirmed by God's latest revelation. Confusion and corruption has spread in the previous revelations, so the final message clarifies the matter. This time, it is not a test of humans to preserve it, but to spread its light to people of all nations. The previous messages were restricted to their respective nations.


Also, Ansar, you claim that millions of muslims are corrupt
Can you please start quoting my statements and responding to them directly. I find it very difficult to dialogue through so many strawmen- I have not claimed what you attribute to me.

There are corrupt people in every group.


because they support terrorism against innocent people
Islam denounces terrorism.

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Qur'an, 16:90)

Please read:
http://islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism1.htm
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/index.php?category=14


What is Allah going to do about it?
Punish them. What else would He do about it? Salvation belongs to those who have faith and perform righteous deeds.

As the Qur'an says:
41:46 Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil, it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His Servants.


The Jews dont get away with it, according to you, but you think the multitudes of Muslims I see crowding the streets in different middle eastern cities etc, after terroist attacks (eg, 911), shouting 'death to Jews' (G-d forbid) and 'death to America' (G-d forbid!) will get away with it?
A couple of points here:
You are judging Islam based on the typical misconceptions from the media. You are allowing your personal experience to cloud your perception of Islam. If you had an abusive teacher, would you ask for all schools to be shut down?

Secondly, if you wish to understand why these people react in the way they do, then perhaps you should do some research on the conditions in their countries and pretty much "stepp into their shoes". Obviously, much of the behaviour around the world is against Islamic teachings, and as such I certainly am opposed to it, and join all the other Muslims in denouncing it. But that does not negate the fact that we should still try to understand these people, to understand their situation. Only by doing that, will it resolve our conflicts. I am sure you would not wish them to judge you based on the stereotypical views of their media, so why would you make the same mistake?

This has nothing to do with Islam, its just a simple attitude for world peace.


What does your Quran say about what will happen to these murderous venomous people, which you say have nothing to do with the Islam you are a part of?
"my" Qur'an, as you have chosen to label it, says the following:

...if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind... (Qur'an, 5:32

God does not love corruption". (Qur'an, 2:205)

Eat and drink of God's provision and do not go about the earth corrupting it. (Qur'an, 2:60)


Do not corrupt the earth after it has been put right. Call on Him fearfully and eagerly. God's mercy is close to the good-doers. (Qur'an, 7:56)

It is quite impossible for someone who fears God and has grasped the true morality of Islam to support violence or wickedness, or to take part in such actions. That is why Islam is the true solution to terrorism. When the sublime morality of the Qur'an is explained, it will be impossible for people to connect true Islam with those who support or join groups that aim at hatred, war and chaos. That is because God has forbidden wickedness:

Whenever he holds the upperhand, he goes about the earth corrupting it, destroying (people's) crops and breeding stock. God does not love corruption. When he is told to have fear of God, he is seized by pride which drives him to wrongdoing. Hell will be enough for him! What an evil resting-place. (Qur'an, 2:205-206)

... And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Qur'an, 28:77)

Please read here:
http://islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism2.htm


Ansar, my baby brother has had 2 near misses with suicide bombers. Only by the Infinite Mercies of HaShem has he been saved. Once he was 20 mtrs away from the edge of the blast site - he'd walked into a shop, Baruch HaShem!!, and the other time he miraculously overslept and missed the bus he caught every day to work, Baruch HaSHem!!. G-d is looking after him, and the G-d that protects him, is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.
I am glad that Allah swt saved your baby brother from such a dreadful catastrophe, but I'm afraid I don't see the point your are making with this narrative. Unless you wish to imply that we have seperate Gods and you are tallying up the score for "the Jewish God", which is a ludicrous notion.

Or perhaps you are wishing to blame Islam for your personal experiences with Muslims, which would be as ludicrous as blaming Judaism for the corruption of some Jews, or even more simply, blaming Mathematics for the mistake you obtained on your test.


I am continuously fulfilled through Judaism, and I'm not even Jewish....I dont need Islam, I see the teachings of Judaism written on my soul....
Perhaps you have not yet realized that Judaism as practiced by Prophet Moses was Islam. Islam is not an alternate system. It is the last and final revelation of God, to complete the message to humanity.

I strongly encourage that you begin some basic understanding of Islam from this website:
http://www.beconvinced.com

In many cases you will find that it complements your Judaic beliefs.

In fact, Muslims are Noahides in practice. The only difference is we have the additional belief in the completeion of God's message.


I cannot see any good reason to change this? If Islam teaches that I need to convert, I need to know why....and no one can sufficiently show me why.
I don't think you have waited lonbg enough for that. The discussion has only just begun. Please check out the links I gave you. I find that reading about Judaism is very useful to me, maybe you will find the same thing about Islam.


It's like sitting at a banquet table covered in the greatest food and drink, and someone saying to me...."you look hungry, you look like you need food".....I then look at the food in front of me and think "no I dont"...
The food has not yet been prepared, and you haven't yet taken your seat at the table. ;)

greetings of peace from a Muslim Noahide,
Ansar Al-'Adl

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 09:34 PM
Are you suggesting that someone who is not a priest is bound by the laws of a priest? Of course not, that doesn't make sense. If God tells the priests to do something specific, should everyone do it? Everyone is not a priest! Thus, their attempt to do a commandment that does not belong to them (such as saying the priestly blessing over a congregation) is contrary to the purpose of the law!
Perhaps you have forgotten that there is no priesthood in Islam.


However, if one were to believe you, these laws are good for all mankind with no distinctions, and you could propose that men should cover themselves up as much as women, which would be a contradiction to the Quran.
While a man-woman:Jew-gentile anlaogy is certainly better than the Rabbi's talent-analogy, I believe this one is also not very accurate.

males are never declared to be the "righteous guide" for women, or vice-versa. They are certainly equal in their relation to God. Men are never described as the "chosen gender". In fact the verse from Al-Hujurat discusses males and females as well:
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

But when we examine the Jew-Gentile comparison, we find that it is very different. Gentiles are not considered chosen because Judaism says that their ancestors did not accept the Torah, something that we have no control of.

And Jews do not like intermarriage, or Jews leaving Judaism.

I find the notion of classification based on one's ethnicity, difficult to say the least.

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
04-08-2005, 10:16 PM
Perhaps you have forgotten that there is no priesthood in Islam. Classes are an analogy Ansar Al-'Adl. You have your leaders too.

While a man-woman:Jew-gentile anlaogy is certainly better than the Rabbi's talent-analogy, I believe this one is also not very accurate.

males are never declared to be the "righteous guide" for women, or vice-versa. They are certainly equal in their relation to God. I never said that they are not equal, I said they have different laws. Which most people confuse to mean "better" or "worse". Are you better or worse than a woman because you do not have a stricter dress code?
If you contend that such a fact does not change either of your status' with Allah, you shouldn't have a problem with the difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

But when we examine the Jew-Gentile comparison, we find that it is very different. Gentiles are not considered chosen because Judaism says that their ancestors did not accept the Torah, something that we have no control of. They do have the control to take the Torah on themselves, but that is unnessicary because, again, that alone doesn't make them better.

I guess I can say it a thousand times and no one will hear: Chosenness does not imply a relationship with God that others cannot achieve, simply a different way of achieving it.

Please read into the following link Ansar Al-'Adl, it gives great detail on chosenness, and why this is not a privilige issue, simply a difference of duties:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm
A small Excerpt:
What does it mean to be chosen? Chosen for what?



G-d chose us for special duties not privileges (http://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm#_ftn6), because we showed a willingness to accept those duties, which the rest of the world rejected. These responsibilities involve not only a more demanding level of spiritual and moral standards, but also include caring for the broader spiritual fulfillment of the world and all its people (http://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm#_ftn7). The Jews did not accept the Torah only for themselves, but on behalf of the whole world. Nor have we ever tried to get anyone else to take over our responsibilities.

And Jews do not like intermarriage, or Jews leaving Judaism. Muslims do?

I find the notion of classification based on one's ethnicity, difficult to say the least. This is why I mention non-jews, Jews, priests, men, women, rules, and Nazerenes (oath takers, essencially). They have different, additional, less, easier, harder, laws than the others based on who they are, be it ethnicity, parents, gender, status, or otherwise, but that doesn't inheirently make them unequal.

“The Bible terms Israel סגולה, “a chosen treasure." This designation, however, does not imply, as some have falsely interpreted it, that Israel has a monopoly on G-d's love and favor. On the contrary, it proclaims that G-d has the sole and exclusive claim to Israel's devotion and service." (Fifteenth Letter)

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-08-2005, 10:43 PM
Muslims do?
Islam does not make the same claims as Judaism. Islam is universal and makes no distinction between any nation. What matters is that you love your Lord and worship Him.

I would have no problem with much of what you have said, but I think some other ideas are being neglected in your explanation, such as the Jews recieving Prophets from God, while the Gentiles must recieve the Jewish nation as their 'prophet' because of the Jew's claimed righteousness and example to all.

morrissey
04-09-2005, 12:37 AM
tha sounds no different to having the blind faith in christianity which you left. Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us.

In essence every muslim is a follower of the message sent by musa. We acknowlegde all the prophets that came before us.

I dont know if Spacefalcon has addressed this, as Ive only just read your post.

Being 'Chosen' is not the same as being put in an exclusive fantastic club.

It is harder to be a Jew than a Gentile. Non-Jews have WAAYYYY less expected of them and they receive equal from G-d. The ones who have it more difficult are the Jews! They have to keep Shabbas to be pleasing to G-d, the non-Jew does not, and we are still as equally pleasing to G-d.

The Jews are the servant to the Nations.

There is a joke that says that G-d offered the Torah to all the other nations before the Jews. G-d first took it to the English. The English checked it over, and said: "so, we'll have to stop eating pork sausages?" G-d said: "Yes", The English said, "no, we dont want it". G-d took it to the French, and the French looked it over and said: "So, we'll only get to make-love only 2 weeks in the month - sorry, no we dont want it". G-d took it to the Japanese, who looked it over and said "So, we cant work on a Saturday? No, sorry, we dont want it". So on and So on, each nation found something that they couldnt bring themselves to do. Lastly, G-d went to the Jews. "Jewish people, will you take the burden of my Torah upon yourselves". The Jews looked it over. "How much does it cost?" They asked G-d. "It's free", G-d replied. "Ok, we'll take it", they replied...... ;)

It doesnt take blind faith for me, I promise you. The Laws I already know, where they came from though, the pieces of the puzzle fit together they way the Jews explain. I can follow the laws whether I believe what stories the Jews say or not. The Jews believe that righteous people that live in nations that have never heard of or seen a Jew in their life also merit a place in the world to come. If you keep the laws, you get in....it is written in our hearts, we dont need to be told about it. That is why the laws sound so simple and obvious. G-d created them inside there, whether we rise above our egos and keep them is another matter. But all this is attainable without any connection to the Jews.

I also think it doesnt take blind faith to agree that 3 million Jews simultaneously recieved the Torah, as opposed to Just 1 man in Islam and 1 man in christianity. It would take more blind faith for me to believe that 3 million jews sat down one day under a mountain and conspired to make up the entire Torah. Two Jews agreeing? I dont think so...... It is much easier to believe that G-d spoke to them all, and that is why they have carried the identical story throughout ancient history to this day.

This would take blind faith: Trying to believe that Since the dawn of time, everyone was muslims. Where is the archaeological proof of this? I have seen archaeological proof of the Sinai event, but none of any Islamic event.

I think Muslims are on the right track, dont get me wrong. Being monotheistic is the natural religion for all mankind. But the Jews believe that each nation (70 nations) have their own unique path to G-d, using the 7 laws as the blueprint. The error, as we all agree, is using intermediaries, as this idolatry. I pray to G-d, the Creator of the Universe. You pray to G-d, the Creator of the Universe. As long as we keep the laws, we are equal in His eyes. I dont have to become Jewish, Muslim or christian....Sikh, Buddhist or Hindu......I just have to follow the 7 universal laws, and I am doing as G-d expects of me. This is the message of the Jews. This is why you dont have to become Jewish. Their more complicated laws have been merely a vehicle by which purity has been maintained in the world, so the nations dont end up defying the 7 laws, and having ourselves obliterated.

I have never heard a more hopeful message, and a message which makes me well-up with the true understanding of the infinite love that our Creator has for all His Creation :D

morrissey
04-09-2005, 01:13 AM
Naturally, this would be expected from any story of conversion, and I congratualte you on your courage to accept Judaism.

But perhaps you could explain to us, the three most convincing factors in your conversion to Judaism, either any inadequacies in Christianity or any positive features of Judaism.

I think this would be a very important point.




Hi Ansar, I wil respond bit by bit - I have 3 sons vying for my attention also today....

Firstly, as of yet I have not converted to Judaism, I remain a Noachide. To convert is something I have a strong magnetic pull to do, but it is a long journey, as once you are a Jew you complicate life for yourself. As a Noachide, I dont have to do any where near so much, and I can strive to be equally as pleasing in the eyes of G-d. The Talmud states that a Righteous Gentile can reach the lofty spiritual heights of a Kohen Godel (Jewish High Priest) - something which your average Jew is incapable of. So I live with a choice....either one is the pathway to G-d - one is just a rockier road.

Leaving christianity was not necessarily connected to becoming Noachide for me (I didnt find out about the 7 laws till about 6 years later). so,

reason 1: I couldnt beleive in a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice.

Reason 2: I couldnt believe that righteous people, who could not bring themselves to accept Jesus as a g?d (G-d forbid!) would end up in an eternal h*ll. Coupled with that, if G-d is a loving and merciful G-d who transcends time and space, and knows what the future holds, it was just plain sick and cruel to create people who did not have the ability to accept Jesus, who would go to h*ll eternally. I couldn't believe that the real G-d was like that.

Reason 3: Hypocrisy....usually the clincher for most people leaving a religion. Contradictory sermons, contradictory stories in the New Testament. Things just didnt add up, and when I asked questions I was told to have blind faith, and it was just the d*vil trying to confuse me and lead me astray.

So, each of those reasons connects to why I accept Judaism, and it sits most comfortably with my soul:

Reason 1: Judaism believes that a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice are all pagan idolatrous beliefs, and are vile to G-d.

Reason 2: Judaism believes the Righteous of all the Nations, as long as
they keep the seven laws, have a place in the world to come. G-d 'means tests' our souls, depending on how much we offer him of our lives (eg, Cain and Abel's sacrifice - G-d judged them on the motivation of their hearts). Also, the concept of eternal ****ation has never existed in Judaism. All our souls are pure, we are tested on how much we use our free-will to tame our egos, and 'break-in' our egos, like a rider breaks-in a horse (ie, dont destroy your ego, make it work for you!). Judaism is about the here and now, making this world a place worthy as a dwelling place for HaShem, which was His intention all along. This world isnt a bad place, it is a place to be rectified and purified. This is why the Jews are not concerned with reward or an afterlife. This makes perfect sense to me.

And Reason 3: I am free to question and batter any 'idea' with a huge stick until I understand. There is no expectation of me to just accept any idea without knowing why. If something appears contradictory, I am not told to just accept it, I am welcome to question it, disect it and work through it until my brain is satisfied with the result.

There are manifold reasons why I have taken to Judaism like a duck to water.....I could probably write a novel, but people would switch off half way through reading! ;)

The book which was a turning point for me to devoting my life to deepening my understanding of the 7 laws, was a book by Rabbi Simon Jacobson, called 'Towards a Meaningful Life'. It is a book for anyone of any religion, and I wouldnt be surprised if a Muslim were to read it, they would agree with every word he says......So maybe he wrote my novel of reasons for me?

morrissey
04-09-2005, 01:34 AM
The food has not yet been prepared, and you haven't yet taken your seat at the table. ;)

greetings of peace from a Muslim Noahide,
Ansar Al-'Adl

Ansar 'Adl - sometimes it seems like we are arguing when in actual fact we are agreeing. There are obvious points we disagree on, but I think they are the factors which do require proving to me.

Ansar 'Adl, I have been sitting and indulging at the 'banquet table' now for many years. The feast is good and I have become healthier and because of the nuitrition.....from my experience, (as I try to talk to you without my mouth full ;) ) is that I stumbled upon the feast when I stumbled upon Judaism. Christianity was the equivilant of Mcdonalds to me - if filled me up for a while, but made me unhealthy and it got monotonous.

Judaism has offered me all the most exquisite delicacies, it has been like stumbling upon an eternal alladdins cave of treasures. I have more than I need, I do literally feel as though 'my cup runneth over'....

If I have more than I need already, why should I try to cram anything else in?

It's like driving a magnificent sports car, that works perfectly and a mechanic telling me it doesnt - yet I experience it and I know it does.

Ansar 'Adl, I am not 'rejecting Islam'. I merely find it 'unnecessary'.

G-d is in my life, and I cannot escape Him. I speak to Him all the time, and He responds, in the classic fashion of my understanding in retrospect how he answers me. Every day Ansar. I prayed for a friend giving birth 2 nights ago, I said Tehillim for her, as she has always had difficult births. She had a fabulous water birth, which was the furtherest from the expectations of the Doctors. I am sure G-d answers you too in a similar fashion. G-d is not leading me to become Muslim. G-d is leading me to be a better me, so that I am a more productive member of the human race.

We are more similar than we are disimilar. I dont know why, if you say eternal d**nation isnt a key factor in the Muslims drive to make converts (you keep saying you've never mentioned it), that you wish that I should convert. I dont think you need to convert to anything, why do you think I should convert? My relationship with G-d, who you call Allah, is GREAT :D

Uthman
04-09-2005, 01:01 PM
:sl:


Sahih Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 43:
Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

Once a Jew said to me, "O the chief of believers! There is a verse in your Holy Book Which is read by all of you (Muslims), and had it been revealed to us, we would have taken that day (on which it was revealed as a day of celebration." 'Umar bin Al-Khattab asked, "Which is that verse?" The Jew replied, "This day I have perfected your religion For you, completed My favor upon you, And have chosen for you Islam as your religion." (5:3) 'Umar replied,"No doubt, we know when and where this verse was revealed to the Prophet. It was Friday and the Prophet was standing at 'Arafat (i.e. the Day of Hajj)"

:)


:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-09-2005, 10:16 PM
:sl:
SubhanAllah (Glory be to Allah), there is quite a bit for me to respond to here.

Firstly, as of yet I have not converted to Judaism, I remain a Noachide.
I didn't know that noahides eventually convert to Judaism. Perhaps you could explain more in the thread on Noahides.


reason 1: I couldnt beleive in a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice.
Agreed. You're first reason is a flaw in Christianity.


Reason 2: I couldnt believe that righteous people, who could not bring themselves to accept Jesus as a g?d (G-d forbid!) would end up in an eternal h*ll. Coupled with that, if G-d is a loving and merciful G-d who transcends time and space, and knows what the future holds, it was just plain sick and cruel to create people who did not have the ability to accept Jesus, who would go to h*ll eternally. I couldn't believe that the real G-d was like that.
Agreed. Islam teaches us that the righteous followers of their respective Prophets will go to paradise, and only the evil people will be punished. However, the previous prophets were sent only for the people of their time and place, and the final Prophet has been sent for humanity, that all followers should accept God's last message.


Reason 3: Hypocrisy....usually the clincher for most people leaving a religion.
Agreed. The Qur'an says:

61:2-3. O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
Most hateful it is with Allâh that you say that which you do not do.


Reason 1: Judaism believes that a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice are all pagan idolatrous beliefs, and are vile to G-d.
I agree that the idea of a "human deity" is not only pagan, but also self-contradictory.

The thing is that Prophet Jesus never taught his followers this. He taught them the true message of Islamic monotheism, just like Prophet Moses.

5:116-120. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?'*" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say).*Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.*You know what is in my inner*self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All*Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise ."

Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him.*That is the great success (Paradise).

To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things


Reason 2: Judaism believes the Righteous of all the Nations, as long as they keep the seven laws, have a place in the world to come.
I think you should learn about the definition of Islam. Muslims are not a nation like Jews are. Islam is the system that belongs to everyone who submits to Allah swt and follows His command. The difference between you and me, is that I have accepted God's final messenger as the source for his laws, while you are trying to follow the previous messengers who's time has expired. You pretty much already believe in the laws of Islam and Tawheed, but you simply haven't accepted Allah's final Messenger who was sent for humanity. All the previous messages were only intended for their respective nation and era.

The last message is to be accepted by all people.


Also, the concept of eternal ****ation has never existed in Judaism. All our souls are pure, we are tested on how much we use our free-will to tame our egos, and 'break-in' our egos, like a rider breaks-in a horse (ie, dont destroy your ego, make it work for you!). Judaism is about the here and now, making this world a place worthy as a dwelling place for HaShem, which was His intention all along. This world isnt a bad place, it is a place to be rectified and purified. This is why the Jews are not concerned with reward or an afterlife.
The fact is that this life is very short. We cannot run from death. This life is a test. Those who do good deeds here, will be rewarded in the hereafter. I agree that this world is not a bad place, but a testing ground.

By neglecting the afterlife, don't you feel that is injust for, say the victims of the holocaust who suffered terribly in this world, and neither will they be rewarded in the next life, nor will their killers be punished.

Is this justice?


And Reason 3: I am free to question and batter any 'idea' with a huge stick until I understand. There is no expectation of me to just accept any idea without knowing why. If something appears contradictory, I am not told to just accept it, I am welcome to question it, disect it and work through it until my brain is satisfied with the result.
And as I pointed out in my previous post, the same is true for Islam. This has been the way of all the Prophets, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, ending with Muhammad, peace be upon them all.


There are manifold reasons why I have taken to Judaism like a duck to water.....I could probably write a novel, but people would switch off half way through reading!
Yet, out of all the reasons you listed, you NEVER mentioned Mount Sinai!!

Where is your "wow" factor?

You have just proven my point completely. You accepted Judaism because you found truth in its message. If you examine Allah's final message to humanity, the Holy Qur'an, you will find a continuation of that message, a criterion of good and evil.


It is a book for anyone of any religion, and I wouldnt be surprised if a Muslim were to read it, they would agree with every word he says
Naturally, we would find much in common with any remaining true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh. The ones who studied Islam recognized the return of HaShem's revelation to humanity, with the final messenger.

Read what the Qur'an says about this:

And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Qur'ân in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition).

52. Those to whom We gave the Scripture before it, - they believe in it (the Qur'ân).

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it. Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allâh in Islâm as Muslims.

54. These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them.

55. And when they hear Al*Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant."

56. Verily! You guide not whom you like, but Allâh guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.


So the people of the previous messages who study Islam will recognize the truth in it, and reject the corruption of people, or Al-Laghw.


Ansar - sometimes it seems like we are arguing when in actual fact we are agreeing. There are obvious points we disagree on, but I think they are the factors which do require proving to me.
Sounds good to me.


Ansar, I have been sitting and indulging at the 'banquet table' now for many years.
In your prvious analogy you likened the banquet to Islamic teachings which you felt you had no need of (not knowing that you were already practicing the remains of the Islamic teachings of Prophet Moses pbuh). Now your analogy has changed, so we're not referring to the same thing anymore.


Ansar, I am not 'rejecting Islam'. I merely find it 'unnecessary'.
Perhpas you should learn more about Islam before making a verdict, right?

Corruption and confusion has indeed spread in the previous messages of the Prophets, which is why God has sent the final message to the world. Of course there were true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh who recognized that Islam was the revelation from God and accepted it because it was the same message that they were following.

Islam is not meant to replace your old beliefs. Islam was the message of Prophet Moses, as well. There's no reason for you to reject God's final messenger, even if you are following a previous message.


I am sure G-d answers you too in a similar fashion. G-d is not leading me to become Muslim.
A muslim is one who has achieved peace through submission to God and His message. Don't you feel that this goal is for everyone?

Think for a moment. You are a follower of Prophet Noah or Prophet Moses pbut, right? Now imagine God sends a final messenger to humanity to clear up the confusion over the previous messages, and sends His last revelation to humanity. Would you reject it because you were satisfied with what you were already following?!

Let's look at an analogy. There is an army in battle right? And their commander sends them a message. And they are doing well in carrying it out, but afterwards some aren't following it properly, others are confused as to some details of the instructions, so the commander sends the next message. You read the message and you note two things:
-it can be verified as an authentic message from the commander
and furthermore,
-it confirms the commands given in the previous messages and explains the details

Why reject it? Simply because you think you can follow the old instructions?


We are more similar than we are disimilar. I dont know why, if you say eternal d**nation isnt a key factor in the Muslims drive to make converts (you keep saying you've never mentioned it), that you wish that I should convert. I dont think you need to convert to anything, why do you think I should convert?
Its not a matter of eternal doom, or converting. Its simply a matter of our Lord sending a Final revelation to all humanity, including those who have been following the previous revelation.

It is a funny position that I am in, seeing people trying to follow the previous revelations when God has sent a fresh clear revelation to humanity to follow. That's all it is.

And I think you have answered your own question very well:

I think Muslims are on the right track, dont get me wrong. Being monotheistic is the natural religion for all mankind.
And that is what Islam is. Monotheism. A natural religion for all mankind. IT is the same message that has been preached to the previous nations by the previous Prophets.

Many non-muslims think that Islam started with Prophet Muhammad saws. No. Islam was taught by every messenger in the past.

Islam contains all the natural laws that you have found so close to your heart. It is the natural path for humanity. You agree that humanity should be united upon monothesism. Islam is that irrefutable monotheistic message.

A true Christian is a Muslim. A true Jew is a Muslim. A true Noahid is a Muslim.

Now the final messenger from God has come. Why shouldn't the previous muslims accept him?

morrissey
04-10-2005, 12:14 AM
my responses will be interspersed in this style:


:sl:
SubhanAllah (Glory be to Allah), there is quite a bit for me to respond to here.

I didn't know that noahides eventually convert to Judaism. Perhaps you could explain more in the thread on Noahides.

A non-Jew can choose to either take on the yoke of Judaism's covenant, if their soul leads them in this direction, or remain within the covenant of Noach if this is what their soul leads them to do. In Judaism, the woman is the spiritually superior one, and the holiness of the family depend on her. As a wider analogy, the Jew is likened to the man, whilst the non-Jew is likened to the woman. here is a link that explains this:

from http://www.inner.org/noahide/noach11.htm

We thus conclude with the thought that the rectified relation of Jew to non-Jew is a partnership, almost like the partnership of husband to wife. The wife, serving as a devoted helpmate, thereby expresses her existential lowliness and dependence on her husband, while the husband, sensing that the ultimate origin of his wife's soul precedes that of his own, thus displays his own existential lowliness and dependence on his wife.

All very equal - and G-d designed it that a non-Jewish person can become the 'masculine' if they wish to.....It is only the Jew who cannot pick and choose. (though the change into a jew is permanent, and cannot be revoked).

Agreed. You're first reason is a flaw in Christianity.


Agreed. Islam teaches us that the righteous followers of their respective Prophets will go to paradise, and only the evil people will be punished. However, the previous prophets were sent only for the people of their time and place, and the final Prophet has been sent for humanity, that all followers should accept God's last message.

Why does Judaism teach that there is no such thing as eternal ****ation (a temporary purification process exists, but the soul elevates once pure), yet christianity and Islam believe that Gehonnim/h*ll is a permanent fixture?

We believe that G-d is only good, so when we die all the evil has to be removed from our pure souls. It is likened to a diamond being cleaned in a fire. 'painful', but G-d wont stop cleaning us till he can again see His Image reflected back in us.....

Agreed. The Qur'an says:

61:2-3. O you who believe! Why do you say that which you do not do?
Most hateful it is with Allâh that you say that which you do not do.


I agree that the idea of a "human deity" is not only pagan, but also self-contradictory.

The thing is that Prophet Jesus never taught his followers this. He taught them the true message of Islamic monotheism, just like Prophet Moses.

5:116-120. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?'*" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say).*Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it.*You know what is in my inner*self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All*Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.

"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise ."

Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him.*That is the great success (Paradise).

To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things


I think you should learn about the definition of Islam. Muslims are not a nation like Jews are. Islam is the system that belongs to everyone who submits to Allah swt and follows His command. The difference between you and me, is that I have accepted God's final messenger as the source for his laws, while you are trying to follow the previous messengers who's time has expired. You pretty much already believe in the laws of Islam and Tawheed, but you simply haven't accepted Allah's final Messenger who was sent for humanity. All the previous messages were only intended for their respective nation and era.

The last message is to be accepted by all people.

I would have to beleive a revelation simultaneously given to me, or a group with me in it, or a nation with me in it, or the whole earth with me in it.....

I believe the revelation of the 7 Mitzvot because they are written in my heart, and I see the rainbow in the sky as a witness to the event. Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him, I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.

I dont have to believe the Sinai event to be Noachide. I do however believe in the 7 Mitzvot, as the Noachides experience can be likened to that of Avraham's experience, when he defied the idolatry of his father Terach. We have defied the status quo, questioned the status quo, stood up for the Laws written in our hearts. No Jew has had to stand there and try and convert us, we have come to these conclusions on our own. Our connection to the Jews begins when we go to them with our questions, because what we believe seems to match what they believe (the proverbial "the nations will pull on the tzit tzit of the Jew to learn"). How prophetic! That is what I did :D

The fact is that this life is very short. We cannot run from death. This life is a test. Those who do good deeds here, will be rewarded in the hereafter. I agree that this world is not a bad place, but a testing ground.

By neglecting the afterlife, don't you feel that is injust for, say the victims of the holocaust who suffered terribly in this world, and neither will they be rewarded in the next life, nor will their killers be punished.

Is this justice?

As I noted above, the after-life is about purification. Gehonnim is deemed to last about '12 months' (1 cycle). I am sure all these innocents in the holocoust either merited immediate entry into the Divine Presence due to the suffering they already experienced on earth, or got in their pretty quick, and definately should be there by now.....

We believe that G-d wants us to make the earth a dwelling place for Him. This was his intention when He created the universe in the first place. It is still His intention, and by following the laws, as prescribed in our Noachide Covenant, we are purifying the world for Him to dwell here. This is what is defined by the "World to Come". It is this world, but this world in it's rectified state. G-d left the world unfinished. He created us to complete it. We can only do that whilst alive on this earth. This is why it is important to preserve life at every cost, and give everyone ample opportunity for Teshuva (Return to G-d). This is why the after-life should not be our concern. We do not do righteous acts, like a dog obeys a master for a reward of a dog biscuit, simply for reward in the after-life. We do righteous acts to rectify the world, as G-d has commanded us and this is His intention.


And as I pointed out in my previous post, the same is true for Islam. This has been the way of all the Prophets, from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, ending with Muhammad, peace be upon them all.


Yet, out of all the reasons you listed, you NEVER mentioned Mount Sinai!!

Where is your "wow" factor?

You have just proven my point completely. You accepted Judaism because you found truth in its message. If you examine Allah's final message to humanity, the Holy Qur'an, you will find a continuation of that message, a criterion of good and evil.


Naturally, we would find much in common with any remaining true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh. The ones who studied Islam recognized the return of HaShem's revelation to humanity, with the final messenger.

I really dont know what 'new' things I can learn from Islam. Also, Mohammed didnt reveal this revelation to humanity, I certainly dont have any memory of him revealling this to me, or revealling it to any of my ancestors - this 'revelation' was just to him, and we just have to trust him that he wasnt having hallucinations or just making it up. As I said before, I dont have to believe in the Sinai event to be Noachide, even though it could mean that 3 million Jews had the same identical mass hallucination. The Noachide Laws are written in our hearts, the revelation is within my own heart, and I dont need a prophet to tell me this. Just as Avraham never needed a prophet to tell him, so to is it with the Noachide.

Read what the Qur'an says about this:

And indeed now We have conveyed the Word (this Qur'ân in which is the news of everything to them), in order that they may remember (or receive admonition).

52. Those to whom We gave the Scripture before it, - they believe in it (the Qur'ân).

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe in it. Verily, it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed even before it we have been from those who submit themselves to Allâh in Islâm as Muslims.

54. These will be given their reward twice over, because they are patient, and repel evil with good, and spend (in charity) out of what We have provided them.

55. And when they hear Al*Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk), they withdraw from it and say: "To us our deeds, and to you your deeds. Peace be to you. We seek not the ignorant."

56. Verily! You guide not whom you like, but Allâh guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided.


So the people of the previous messages who study Islam will recognize the truth in it, and reject the corruption of people, or Al-Laghw.


Sounds good to me.


In your prvious analogy you likened the banquet to Islamic teachings which you felt you had no need of (not knowing that you were already practicing the remains of the Islamic teachings of Prophet Moses pbuh). Now your analogy has changed, so we're not referring to the same thing anymore.

I think you mis-read/misinterpreted my banquet analogy. I was saying that I was sitting at the Jewish 'banquet', and christians try to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with them, and you too are trying to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with you. But I'm thinking, no thanks, there is actually a huge banquet of food in front of me, as supplied by Judaism, and it I am definately not starving, as you and some christians assume I am, when they try to convert me, I am quite full!


Perhpas you should learn more about Islam before making a verdict, right?

I dont know why I should have to - I am satisfied with what I am partaking of at present. I do believe I need to understand Muslims more, but I'm not a religious glutton, so I will 'finish' this never-ending meal that is satisfying me within Judaism... If I ever get hungry again, I would definately check out Islam, but for now, I'm not, and from the looks of the infinately long banquet table in front of me, I dont think I will be hungry again..... :cake: :cup: :D


Corruption and confusion has indeed spread in the previous messages of the Prophets, which is why God has sent the final message to the world. Of course there were true followers of Prophet Moses pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh who recognized that Islam was the revelation from God and accepted it because it was the same message that they were following.

Islam is not meant to replace your old beliefs. Islam was the message of Prophet Moses, as well. There's no reason for you to reject God's final messenger, even if you are following a previous message.

How can I reject something which hasnt been revealled to me? I dont reject the Noachide Laws, as they are written in my heart, and I see the sign of the Rainbow. Islam is not written in my heart, Mohammed hasnt been revealled to me. I have to go where G-d leads me, and G-d is not leading me to Mecca. I am magnetically drawn to Jerusalem...


A muslim is one who has achieved peace through submission to God and His message. Don't you feel that this goal is for everyone?

I have already found peace through submission to G-d. But I didnt need Islam to help me find this peace. "If it aint broke, dont fix it".

Think for a moment. You are a follower of Prophet Noah or Prophet Moses pbut, right? Now imagine God sends a final messenger to humanity to clear up the confusion over the previous messages, and sends His last revelation to humanity. Would you reject it because you were satisfied with what you were already following?!

If it were revealled to me, I would not deny it. But Islam was not revealled to me, and it was not revealled to my ancestors. It is a foriegn alien thing to me. The Noachide laws are written in my heart, fully revealled.

You telling me about Islam, or one of your clerics telling me about Islam, is not a 'revelation'. It is hearsay.

No one has to tell me about the Noachide Laws, they are revealled to me by my conscience, my pure soul that G-d breathed into me when I was born. As long as I rise above this animal body's desires, harness them as a tool to rectify this world, I can begin to reveal more and more the Noachide revelation that is written in my soul. What I know in my soul is not hearsay. How can that be?

I dont believe in 'converting' people to things. Who am I to judge someone elses soul? I have never walked in another's shoes? Who am I to judge the righteousness or the evil of someone else? I can only judge myself, I can only 'convert' myself. This is the nature of being a Noachide. It is an internal calling/revelation for which only an individual can respond to. Going to the Jews is secondary to this.

Islam is on the right track. Except where it massively judges other people. This is the big error of christianity. You dont know me, you dont know or see my connection to my Creator. How do you know where 'I'm at'? You cant possibly. Judaism never tries to judge where 'I'm at'. I go to it as I judge my self. It doesnt need to come to me and tell me my life is inadequate , like christians and muslims think they need to - come to me and tell me my life is inadequate. My life isnt inadequate. I feel like I have come home within Judaism, as a Noachide.



Let's look at an analogy. There is an army in battle right? And their commander sends them a message. And they are doing well in carrying it out, but afterwards some aren't following it properly, others are confused as to some details of the instructions, so the commander sends the next message. You read the message and you note two things:
-it can be verified as an authentic message from the commander
and furthermore,
-it confirms the commands given in the previous messages and explains the details

Why reject it? Simply because you think you can follow the old instructions?

Well, if the message comes from a commander that is foriegn to you, as Mohammed was foriegn to the Jews, both in nationality and in is ideas and definition of himself as a prophet (since the prophets had ceased within Judaism by then), would you not be suspicious that it is a trick? Maybe foreign armies have hijacked your Commander, and wish to destroy you and hinder your cause.

This is how the Jews feel. The Jewish nation is a family. If someone came to you from another country, in a foriegn language, with foriegn ideals and said to you that you are in error, I dont doubt you would think them strange and irrelevant to the perfectly functioning life as a family you were existing within. The Jews were told the Torah was not allowed to be changed, EVER. Then Mohammed, a forienger, in a foriegn language comes to them and says "change it", when they previously had been told by G-d Himself not to change it, they are going to reject him outright. What would you do, if for example, a group of a million american indians came to you and said "Allah has given us the final messenger, (remember G-d told the Jews that there message was final and everlasting) and he has told us you must convert to our religion or face eternal d**nation, since too many of adherents in the name of Allah have defied Allah and murdered innocent people, at events such as 911"....you'd be very suspicious indeed, since you have been told a conflicting message that Mohammed was the last messenger.

This is how it is for the Jews. You are telling them a conflicting message. Why should they accept it? [/FONT]

Its not a matter of eternal doom, or converting. Its simply a matter of our Lord sending a Final revelation to all humanity, including those who have been following the previous revelation.

But I didnt experience this final revelation, and neither did my ancestors. I have to have blind faith, and trust what you are telling me isnt a fable. I dont have to go to such lengths to trust what is written in my soul.

It is a funny position that I am in, seeing people trying to follow the previous revelations when God has sent a fresh clear revelation to humanity to follow. That's all it is.

I dont thing you've met many orthodox Jews - they arent 'trying' to do anything. Who are you to judge their experience? Do you know them individually? Do you know personally if they are feeling inadequate? What makes you such a mind reader? Are you psychic that you can read the minds of millions of Jews and see without a doubt that they are unhappy and inadequate?

I dont see how your 'revelation' is 'fresh and clear'. It would be 'clear' if it were written in my heart like the Noachide covenant (and the Mosaic covenant for the Jew). But Islam is a foreign concept to me, so therefore not 'clear' in comparison to the clearness of what I believe right now.

If it is clear to you, that is fine, it is for you. I cannot see into your brain. But I can see into my brain, and sorry, Islam isnt clear to me.

And I think you have answered your own question very well:

And that is what Islam is. Monotheism. A natural religion for all mankind. IT is the same message that has been preached to the previous nations by the previous Prophets.

Many non-muslims think that Islam started with Prophet Muhammad saws. No. Islam was taught by every messenger in the past.

Islam contains all the natural laws that you have found so close to your heart. It is the natural path for humanity. You agree that humanity should be united upon monothesism. Islam is that irrefutable monotheistic message.

A true Christian is a Muslim. A true Jew is a Muslim. A true Noahid is a Muslim.

Now the final messenger from God has come. Why shouldn't the previous muslims accept him?

Mohammed asks the Jew to contradict their Torah. If a prophet contradicts just one word of Torah, he is deemed a false prophet. Unless all his 'prophecies' align with each and every word of the 613 laws, he is false. He is trying to contradict G-d's own voice at Sinai.

Mohammed for the non-Jew? maybe....but that is not what Islam teaches. It asks the Jews to disobey G-ds laws, and that I find a bit questionable.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-10-2005, 01:54 PM
:sl:

my responses will be interspersed in this style:
I'm glad you're responding to my poijnts directly, but why don't you break up the quotes like I do? I think that would be even easier for both of us, and for anyone reading this. Simply put the quote tags around my statement that you wish to reply to.


All very equal - and G-d designed it that a non-Jewish person can become the 'masculine' if they wish to.....It is only the Jew who cannot pick and choose. (though the change into a jew is permanent, and cannot be revoked).
I believe that would be the flaw in the analogy. Men don't become women, and Women don't become Men. Men as a whole gender are not considered the righteous example for women. There are righteous individuals from both. Neither gender is locked into such traits.


Why does Judaism teach that there is no such thing as eternal ****ation (a temporary purification process exists, but the soul elevates once pure), yet christianity and Islam believe that Gehonnim/h*ll is a permanent fixture?

We believe that G-d is only good, so when we die all the evil has to be removed from our pure souls. It is likened to a diamond being cleaned in a fire. 'painful', but G-d wont stop cleaning us till he can again see His Image reflected back in us.....

Evidently you have explained the purification process very well, which was the teaching of alll the Prophets, and thus part of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. As far as eternal punishment is concerned, I would think that Hitler absoloutely deserves that for what he did. For absoloute justice to occur, even single inch of sufferening inflicted on someone because of you should result in the same amount of suffering to you. Hitler caused enormous and inconceivable suffering. His victims would have preferred to be burned than take what they did. And the suffering did not end immediately. All the firneds and family suffered to. The descendents suffered. All that must be payed for, and burning for eternity is equal to that.


Make no mistake, Allah is the Most Merciful, and the foundation of this very existence is love, as the hadith qudsi says: I was a hidden treasure that loved to be known so I created creation so that I could be known. Allah did not create us to punish us; rather, He created us to know and serve Him. However, whatever punishment that Allah has warned us of, know that the punishment fits the crime and no more. That's `adl (justice), which is one of Allah's attributes. Allah is PERFECTLY just, so if He says that people have earned eternal Hellfire, than they have earned eternal Hellfire. Allah says in the Qur'an that He does not wrong us, we only wrong ourselves. Thus, given the reality of this life and existence as a whole, given all that Allah has given us (which is everything!), for those who obstinately reject His oneness, which is the truth of reality for there is no other God and no other reality than there can be no other fate than eternal rejection, i.e., Hellfire. So, to me, it is more a question of us rejecting ourselves and our own eternal well-being than Allah doing anything to us. Essentially, Allah is just warning us of the reality of the situation and telling us to act accordingly based on what He has shown us through creation, guidance, and knowledge.

Also we must remember, according to the aqeedah (creed) of Ahl As-Sunnah wa Al-Jama`ah (i.e., the majority of Muslims), as elaborated on by the great Imam Al-Ghazali (d. AH 505/1111 CE) in his Foundations of Islamic Belief, One should believe that the believer in the Oneness of Allah (if he enters Hell on account of his sins) will be released from Hell fire after he has been punished, so that there will not remain in Hell one single believer. ... Therefore, not one single believer will abide in Hell forever; whosoever has in his heart the weight of an atom of belief will be brought out from there.

Accordingly, eternal Hellfire is due only for those people who have not even one atom's worth of belief in their hearts. Furthermore, we do not know who has what in their hearts. That is Allah's business and we should not concern ourselves in trying to figure it out by judging others. Rather, we should only concern ourselves with ourselves, for it is our selves that will ruin us if we do not look after them.

In terms of the question of the eternality of hellfire, we must always strive to understand through knowledge, remembrance, and contemplation that this entire universe and existence belongs to Allah. He created it, He sustains it; everything in it came from Him and everything in it will go back to Him. As such, He knows best how and why everything is where it is, and what its fate will ultimately be. Thus, there is no questioning why Allah does things, for everything belongs to Him! We need to learn who He is and how He does things, His sunan (plural of 'sunnah'), rather. For if we truly knew Him, we wouldn't ask questions such as why Allah does such-and-such. The Qur'an says very clearly that on the Day of Judgment,
He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned (Al-Anbiyaa' 21:23).
We are merely recipients of endless mercy and bounty, which we did not earn but received solely out of the Creator's will. Let's begin with our very existence. How about the ability to breathe? How about our health and physical abilities? How about our ability to speak? How about the food we eat? How about the ability to think? How about love? The list goes on and on: all are acts of mercy and love from Ar-Rahman. So, given that Allah created and continues to create everything on a continuous basis, and is the Owner of all things in truth, where is the room for us to question? Who are we to question? Now we can begin to see, I think, the problem with those who arrogantly and obstinately reject Allah's oneness.

The life Hereafter will not be like this life. We have been told that the life Hereafter will be one of fixed states: Paradise or Hellfire and their degrees, not fluctuating states like in this present existence. As such, the reaping we do in the Hereafter from our beliefs and deeds here will be in the form of permanence and eternality, not of fluctuation and temporal change. Our time here is very limited. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said that our life here is the equivalent of stopping for a nap under a tree while in the midst of a long journey. So for those who reject Allah, permanence in the next life will be in the form of a horrendous state based on what such a person has earned here and what lies in the deepest recesses of his or her heart, for Allah says that on the Day of Judgment, that which is in the breasts will be manifested, i.e., the true state of our hearts will be uncovered. And if there is not even one atom's worth of belief in such a person's heart, there is no other possibility for him or her. For the end is with Allah, and there is no such thing as forever except with Allah. Furthermore, we must also remember that Allah only punishes those who have been sent the true message of his oneness, and only He knows truly who has received that message. Allah is All-Knowing.



I would have to beleive a revelation simultaneously given to me, or a group with me in it, or a nation with me in it, or the whole earth with me in it.....

I believe the revelation of the 7 Mitzvot because they are written in my heart, and I see the rainbow in the sky as a witness to the event. Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him, I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.
I think you have just answered your own point. The seven Mitzvot are part of Islam! Prophet Noah was a Muslim. Prophet Abraham was a Muslim. Prophet Moses was a Muslim. If you find that following the remains of Islamic teachings is very close to your heart, then you have proven my point on miracles. You would be able to accept Islam on exactly the same grounds.

With regards to your statement

Mohammed has never appeared to me and told me to follow him
As there is no need for such, as you have pointed out very well yourself. Prophet Noah never appeared to you, yet you follow his Islamic teachings.

With regards to your statement:

I am being asked to have blind faith here and to feel 'connected' to something I feel no connection to.
I am not sure if you are doing this to irritate me, but I have now explained three times that blind faith has no place in Islam, nor are you being asked to have blind faith.

And I can prove that you feel connected to Islam, because you are already a partial muslim!

Let's examine these 7 Mitzvot, and their Islamic parallel.

1. The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against
murder. God explicitly commands Noah (Genesis 9:6), "If one sheds the blood of the man (HaAdam), by man shall his own blood be
shed."

5:32...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people

2. The following is an implicit reference to the prohibition against theft. It shows that permission is needed to take something that is not explicitly yours. "You shall not steal; you shall not deal deceitfully or falsely with one another" (Leviticus 19:11).

5:38 As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.

5:39 But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

3. The below verse refers to sexual misconduct or adultery, as the prophet Jeremiah (3:1) says, "Saying (laymor), if a man divorces his wife..."

17:32 Nor come nigh to adultery/fornication: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

4. The following verse implies that there are things which may not be eaten (the limbs of a live animal): "You must not, however, eat flesh with its life- blood in it." (Genesis 9:4)

5:3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah. that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows: that is impiety. This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

5. The following verse is a reference to the prohibition against
idolatry; for it says in Exodus 20:3, "You shall have no other gods before me."

6:151 Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath prohibited you from": Do not ascribe divinity, in any way, to aught beside Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

6. The following verse implies the prohibition against blasphemy. As it says in Leviticus 24:16, "He who blasphemes the name of the Lord (Hashem) shall die."

39:32 Who, then, doth more wrong than one who utters a lie concerning Allah, and rejects the Truth when it comes to him; is there not in Hell an abode for blasphemers?

7. What follows is a reference to laws of justice for it says in
Genesis 18:19, "For I have known him so he will command (Yitzaveh) his children after him to keep the way of the Lord and righteousness and justice."

16:90 God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed

There you have it. Now you have no excuse not to believe Islam, because what you find written on your heart is Islamic teachings. You are following a small portion of the whole.

I highly encourage that you learn about Islam, as it seems like it would suit you perfectly. Please read at least a few of the articles here:

http://www.beconvinced.com



I dont have to believe the Sinai event to be Noachide. I do however believe in the 7 Mitzvot, as the Noachides experience can be likened to that of Avraham's experience, when he defied the idolatry of his father Terach. We have defied the status quo, questioned the status quo, stood up for the Laws written in our hearts.

Well said. Contemplate on the following verses:

2:130-141 And who turns away from the religion of Abraham (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the Universe."

And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Abraham upon his sons and by Jacob, (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your God, the God of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, One God, and to Him we submit (in Islâm)."

That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say, "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Abraham, Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism), and he was not of those who worshipped others along with Allâh."

Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Jacob], and that which has been given to Moses and Jesus, and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."

So if they believe in the like of that which you believe, then they are rightly guided, but if they turn away, then they are only in opposition. So Allâh will suffice you against them. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

[Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allâh (Islâm) and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allâh's? And we are His worshippers.

Say, "Dispute you with us about Allâh while He is our Lord and your Lord? And we are to be rewarded for our deeds and you for your deeds. And we are sincere to Him in worship and obedience (i.e. we worship Him Alone and none else, and we obey His Orders)."

Or say you that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Jacob] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allâh (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony he has from Allâh? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do."

That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned, and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.


I really dont know what 'new' things I can learn from Islam.
I suppose you want know until you start to research Islam. Islam is your birthright.


Also, Mohammed didnt reveal this revelation to humanity, I certainly dont have any memory of him revealling this to me, or revealling it to any of my ancestors - this 'revelation' was just to him, and we just have to trust him that he wasnt having hallucinations or just making it up.
Well I was going to answer this with the miracles at the evidence of Prophecy, but I noticed you answered it far better yourself:


The Noachide Laws are written in our hearts, the revelation is within my own heart, and I dont need a prophet to tell me this. Just as Avraham never needed a prophet to tell him, so to is it with the Noachide.
Prophet Noah and Prophet Abraham preached Islam. That is why we find such simmilarities. It is the same faith. You are simply following a second-hand old worn-out hand-me-down version, while I am offering you a fresh one.


I think you mis-read/misinterpreted my banquet analogy. I was saying that I was sitting at the Jewish 'banquet', and christians try to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with them, and you too are trying to tell me there is no food in front of me, so I should eat with you.
I think you have misunderstood as well. I'm not saying that you have no food. I agree the Christians will say that, and you would say the same about them. But what I say is that you are eating my food without knowing it!

2:113 The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but Allah will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.


The rest of your comments are just repeating the same point which I have answered, but I did have a question about..

I see the sign of the Rainbow.
Which verse of the Tanakh mentions this?


[COLOR=DarkGreen][FONT=Comic Sans MS]I have already found peace through submission to G-d. But I didnt need Islam to help me find this peace. "If it aint broke, dont fix it".
:lol: You still don't realize what Islam is. You have pretty much said, "I already have Islam, so I don't need Islam". You are practicing a part of Islam. You just don't know it. You're pretty much a muslim already!



If it were revealled to me, I would not deny it. But Islam was not revealled to me, and it was not revealled to my ancestors. It is a foriegn alien thing to me. The Noachide laws are written in my heart, fully revealled.
I thank you so much for this statement. According to this, you have no reason to deny Islam! The Noahide laws are part of Islam! Islam is written in your heart as you have undoubtedly proven!

I think you should really find out who you are. Please start learning the basics of Islam here:
http://www.beconvinced.com

And when you are ready, you can start reading the Qur'an here:
http://web.umr.edu/~msaumr/Quran/

Start at the beginning and just read a few verses everyday. You will never be able to deny that these verses are written in your heart.


And I leave with [b]your own words to think about:


It would be 'clear' if it were written in my heart like the Noachide covenant (and the Mosaic covenant for the Jew).

:w:

morrissey
04-10-2005, 11:24 PM
Ansar, I dont believe in converting people to a 'religion'.

But for arguments sake, I could turn the tables on you, and say that really, you are a Noachide,not a muslim, and if you just gave up the distractions of Islam, you would find your connection to your Creator is clearer, like fog or smoke clearing, and experiencing a breath of fresh air.

I could tell you, how you are limiting yourself, how there is a fountain of knowledge and an aladdins cave of infinite treasures that are their for the taking, if you just open your mind and learn about Judaism and Noachidism.

I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood. This is transcribed in the Torah, so I go the Jews who received this Torah and learn from them. They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.

Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....

You are trying to sell ice to an eskimo.....I just dont need it.....

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-11-2005, 08:31 PM
Ansar, I dont believe in converting people to a 'religion'.
I don't think I can convert anyone. Converting is not for human beings. God guides people to the straight path.


But for arguments sake, I could turn the tables on you, and say that really, you are a Noachide,not a muslim,
I never said you are not a Noahide, and I claimed to be a Noahide myself! A Muslim is anyone who submits to God and follows His messenger. Prophet Noah preached Islam, so any true Noahide is a Muslim. But keep in mind that all previous messengers were sent only to their people and era.


and if you just gave up the distractions of Islam,
What distractions? Islam is a sytem that eliminates distractions. It does not have any. It is very frustrating to discuss this issue with you, when you know so little about Islam, and are not willing to learn more either.


you would find your connection to your Creator is clearer, like fog or smoke clearing, and experiencing a breath of fresh air.
No breath of fresh air has tasted better than the feeling of My Lord's infinitely warm love upon my heart.


if you just open your mind and learn about Judaism and Noachidism.
How do you open something that is already open?! I have always had an open-mind to Judaism and Noachidism, and I am forever learning about these paths. The difference between me and you, is that you have closed your mind to Islam, knowing almost nothing about it, while I have and always will, retain an open-mind to all other ways of life.


I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood.
I agree, but the Prophets NEVER told their followers to name their religion after their Prophet! Prophet Noah preached Islam. Islam means peace achieved through submission to God. This is what has been taught by all the Prophets. You are simply following the older, remains of this way, while I am following it directly from God's latest revelation.


They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.
Is this a logical argument? If God sends a second revelation, you will reject it because it is new? And what do you mean by, "closer to the source"? God is always with us. He is not isolated in time!


Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....
I don't have to prove that to prove this case at all. Even if the Torah was perfect and flawless, and God sent another revelation, you would still have to accept it.

Nevertheless, It will prove no challenge to prove that the Torah contains errors in it, but my question to you is, what level of corruption do you feel is necessary?

Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

That is exactly why you have to keep turning to the Jews, because they have an organized religion and you don't.

:w:

kadafi
04-11-2005, 10:06 PM
I believe in my heart that being a Noachide is the original religion after the flood. This is transcribed in the Torah, so I go the Jews who received this Torah and learn from them. They got the Torah before Mohammed got the Quran. I want to go further back in time, closer to the source, and the Jews are closer to that source, from the evidence I have witnessed.

Unless you can prove to me, without a doubt in my mind, that the Torah has been re-written, I am sorry....

Greetings morrisey, on what evidence do you conclude that this Taurat (Torah) that you perceive today is the unadulterated Word of God dictated to Musa (Peace be upon him).

Can you honestly provide credible evidence regardin' the texual reliablity of the present-day Taurat (Torah)?

The final answer will be no because what you've stated in order to prove that the Torah is the Word of God is theologically speaking. In other words, that is your firm belief as a Jew (or Noachide).

It's widely accepted among the scholars that the Torah suffers from textual inconsistency and is the work of multi-authorship.

Perhaps you may have come accross the the term Documentary Hypothesis which was formulated in the 19th century and popularized supported with credible evidence by Richard Elliot Friedman in his book 'Who wrote the Bible?'. They may differ who those authors were and exactly which time-period it was written but they unanimously agree that it was the works of multiple hands.

Allah (Exalted is He) said in al-Baqarah verse 75 (interpretation of the meaning):

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?”

And in al-Maa’idah verse 13 (interpretation of the meaning):
“So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).”

The apologists, attempted unsuccessfully to refute this claim and thus are quite evasive when it comes to textual criticism.

Moreover, it's widely accepted that there is no authoritative text regardin' the Torah 'till around 100 CE.

The methods used to determine the authenticity and the preservation of the Qur'an exceeds tremendously when compared with the methods used to preserve the present-day Scriptures such as the Injeel (Gospel) and the Taurat (Torah).

We have manuscripts dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE).

Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir in the book 'The Life Of Mohammad'

The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.

Notice how he states that there is no other work which has remained so pure for so long. This automatically refutes the assertion status of the Torah and the Bible.

Peace

morrissey
04-11-2005, 10:23 PM
Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

That is exactly why you have to keep turning to the Jews, because they have an organized religion and you don't.

:w:


;D

Ansar......

oh dear....presumptions presumptions.

I have come here and dropped my presumptions which are fuelled by the media, left right and centre, and even my real life experiences when I have visited Israel in the past - as a non-Jew - and witnessed the situation there.


And then you make the presumptions of all presumptions when you make the naive comment you did above....

unbelievable!

you make it up as you go along..... ;D

you didnt even know about the concept of a Noachide until a couple of weeks ago, if that...and know you talk about us as though you are the expert......

I dont need a 'path' to G-d. I have merely stopped turning my back to Him, He is with me, and I cannot escape Him. Why do I need a path to Him? I have never been separated. I only tried to kid myself that I was.

You expect me to do irrelevant things like make pilgrimages to Mecca, and agree with your slanderous comments towards the Jews, in regards to their precious Torah being corrupted, (which does belong to mankind btw, just think of them as the librarians).....

I will not commit unfounded Lashon HaRa against the Jews. It is racist. Though it has not incited you to murder, it has incited others in the name of your 'path', to murder innocents. That is Lashon HaRa. It is like a cancer that eats up what is healthy. If your path has committed Lashon HaRa against the Jews, just as the christians committed Lashon HaRa against the Jews, then I have to reject it. It may have healthy aspects, but if there is a cancer of slander within it, then the healthy parts will eventually be eaten up from within. And it's not just about the Jews. Anyone who your religion states is evil or corrupt merely because they reject your prophet.

sorry Ansar

ice to an eskimo. I have plenty of ice. I dont need yours, especially if it has a fly frozen in the middle of it, in the form of Lashon HaRa against the Jews.

morrissey
04-11-2005, 10:44 PM
Can you honestly provide credible evidence regardin' the texual reliablity of the present-day Taurat (Torah)?


Peace


Noachides arent about 'converting' and neither is Judaism. You either have it in your soul, or you dont.

I am not here to prove anything to you, as I really cannot be bothered with whether you believe what I do or not. As far as a Jew and Noachide is concerned about non-Jews, if you keep the 7 laws, you are keeping the covenant. No conversion necessary, no sign on the dotted line, no praying towards cities we've never lived in.

But Kadafi,

You are trying to prove something to me by asking me to convert to Islam.
That is the name of this thread: Why do you reject Islam?

I tell you the reasons, you then try to prove to me they are unfounded.

One reason is the slanderous uneducated belief that the Jews corrupted the Torah. I am waiting for you to prove this to me without a doubt.

somebody's opinion, remains just a hot air opinion.

I need world changing evidence laid out on the table. Otherwise I dont understand why I must change my world.



Notice how he states that there is no other work which has remained so pure for so long. This automatically refutes the assertion status of the Torah and the Bible.

It's so funny, you use a christian missionary to support your claims. A christian missionary supports the claims that there is a human deity. How can you trust any utterence out of his mouth, if he is capable of uttering nonsense about his deity?

And you have to understand the definition of the bible. The bible is the wierd translations that the christians use, with mangled language, mistranslations.

the TaNaKh, on the other hand is a different matter. And the most important document that has remained unchanged is the Torah, as the christians refer to as the first 5 books. Everything else has to align with this Torah. You could make up a fiction novel, and as long as it does not add or subtract from the Torah, ie contradict the Torah, it is a fine source. The book of Job is possibly a work of fiction, but to the Jews that is irrelevant. It does not contradict the Torah, so it is fine.

Your Quran on the other hand does contradict the Torah, so it cannot be added on. It asks the Jews to break the very laws that G-d gave them Himself, without even having to use the voice of a prophet. He used His own voice. The Torah observant Jew is not going to disobey G-d for anyone, no matter how many miracles he can perform, and how many signs and wonders he brings. They know it is a test, and tests werent meant to be easy.

This is where the ball remains in your court to prove to me, without a doubt, that the Torah is corrupted. How, why, when, where, and with eyewitness accounts of more than just a couple of people, arcaeological evidence of the original Torah etc. Peoples opinions, like your christian missionary, are hot air.

If you cant prove this to me, then I have no reason to convert.

kadafi
04-11-2005, 11:23 PM
I am not here to prove anything to you, as I really cannot be bothered with whether you believe what I do or not. Hi, morrissey. I'm disappointed that you do not want to offer your evidence for makin' such claims while in reality, your claims do not hold up in the Academic world. Fideism is a concept that I strongly dislike.



But Kadafi,

You are trying to prove something to me by asking me to convert to Islam.
That is the name of this thread: Why do you reject Islam? Dear morrissey, please do not put words in my mouths. I cannot convert you. Only Allah (God) has the ability to guide you, not me. I can only offer you the Truth.

The topic here is just to comprehend and reflect on the (logical) reasons that makes you repudiate Islam. That way, we can see if your reasons are based on misconceptions, allegations or any other claims that truly are baseless.



One reason is the slanderous uneducated belief that the Jews corrupted the Torah. I am waiting for you to prove this to me without a doubt. Unfortunaley morrissey, you've missed the essence of my previous reply which expounded (not detailed) the reasons of this corruption. Perhaps, you should re-read it since I'm not in a position to repeat myself.



It's so funny, you use a christian missionary to support your claims. A christian missionary supports the claims that there is a human deity. How can you trust any utterence out of his mouth, if he is capable of uttering nonsense about his deity? I find that a weak attempt to reject someone's scholarship based on his beliefs (logical fallacy). There is a clear difference between attackin' his argument (based on credible evidence) and attackin' his beliefs and thus reject his credible claim. This famous Christian scholar who detests Islam cannot ignore the very fact that it's the only Pure preserved Text in the modern world today. If he really was biased, as you assert, he wouldn't have praised the Qur'an but instead attacked it like some of the previous Christian orientalists did. Instead, he acknowledged the status of the Qu'ran as the most authentic Scripture in the light of evidence. Can that be claimed the same for the Torah? No.


the TaNaKh, on the other hand is a different matter. And the most important document that has remained unchanged is the Torah, as the christians refer to as the first 5 books. Everything else has to align with this Torah. You could make up a fiction novel, and as long as it does not add or subtract from the Torah, ie contradict the Torah, it is a fine source. The book of Job is possibly a work of fiction, but to the Jews that is irrelevant. It does not contradict the Torah, so it is fine.

Your Quran on the other hand does contradict the Torah, so it cannot be added on. It asks the Jews to break the very laws that G-d gave them Himself, without even having to use the voice of a prophet. He used His own voice. The Torah observant Jew is not going to disobey G-d for anyone, no matter how many miracles he can perform, and how many signs and wonders he brings. They know it is a test, and tests werent meant to be easy. Notice how you didn't answer any of my points but instead used incorrect reasonings.

And it's also the first argument in the '100 Hundred Proofs Of Islamic False Hood':

1) ARGUMENT FROM DISAGREEMENT





I believe that the Bible [in this case the Torah] is the word of God.
The Qur'ân disagrees with the Bible [or Torah].
Therefore, Islam is false.
http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=1023

The question stands, dear morrissey, do you acknowledge the textual inconsistency in the Torah and the fact that textual realibility is very unsubstantial.
Peace

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-11-2005, 11:51 PM
:sl:

Unfortunately Morrissey, I was hoping for a much more onjective response that your previous one. I found very little worthy of commenting on.


I dont need a 'path' to G-d. I have merely stopped turning my back to Him, He is with me, and I cannot escape Him. Why do I need a path to Him? I have never been separated. I only tried to kid myself that I was.
Why do you need a path to God?

Because lacking a path denies any purpose in life. What is the purpose of accepting the existence of God, without performing your duty on this planet? Do you really understand why you are here?

If we don't have a path, we have no direction, no goals. Life becomes an empty game of gain. A path ot God measures our connection with Him and brings us closer to Him.

What is the purpose in believing in the existence of your leader, when you don't follow him?!

You have to follow God's laws and perform your service as God's Viceroy on Earth.

Islam organizes your relations with God, with yourself, with your children, with your relatives, with your neighbor, with your guest, and with other brethren. Islam clearly establishes your duties and rights in all those relationships.

Islam establishes a clear system of worship, civil rights, laws of marriage and divorce, laws of inheritance, code of behavior, what not to drink, what to wear, and what not to wear, how to worship God, how to govern, the laws of war and peace, when to go to war, when to make peace, the law of economics, and the laws of buying and selling. Islam is a complete code of life.

Islam is not for the mosque only, it is for daily life, a guide to life in all its aspects: socially, economically, and politically.

Islam is complete constitution. Thus Islam keeps the Muslim away from confusion, because Islam is logical and rational. Allah is one. Islam is complete code of human life.


You expect me to do irrelevant things like make pilgrimages to Mecca,
Read what your own Holy Books say, first:
Psalms 84:5-6 Blessed are those whose strength is in you,who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.

And then read the Qur'an:
The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bacca (Another name for Makka): Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings

So who are you to declare what God has ordained, as irrelevant? Do you have no fear about what you will say to your Lord on the Final Day?!


and agree with your slanderous comments towards the Jews, in regards to their precious Torah being corrupted
The greatest slander is to corrupt the word of God with lies against God and the Prophets of God. The Torah has attributed to the Messengers of God, the most heinious sins!


Though it has not incited you to murder, it has incited others in the name of your 'path', to murder innocents.
Common logical fallacy. Go back a few posts where I refuted this.


That is Lashon HaRa. It is like a cancer that eats up what is healthy.
you know what is cancer? To praise what God has cursed. To uphold that which you have no knowledge about. It really seems to me that you have not even read the Torah. Have you read the Tanakh in its entirety?


Anyone who your religion states is evil or corrupt merely because they reject your prophet.
Its not just my Prophet, but God's Final Messenger. I would consider thhose who reject God's Messenger as those who reject God. And rejecting God is both evil and corrupt.

:w:

morrissey
04-11-2005, 11:52 PM
I dont see what is wrong with this:


I believe that the Bible [in this case the Torah] is the word of God.
The Qur'ân disagrees with the Bible [or Torah].
Therefore, Islam is false.



You have to prove to me otherwise.

So far,you offer people's opinions on the subject.

I want cold, hard, evidence.

This is what you believe:

1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now

Show me you are not basing your opinions on prejudice. Because at the moment I sense you are doing your utmost to convince yourself that the Jews are the 'bad guys' so you can legitimise your religion. You have not proven the corruption of the Torah with real evidence. You hope you are correct in your assumptions, so you list the opinions of others, who hold the same assumptions.

Lay it on the table, give me no doubt in my mind.....

What is the undeniable tangible evidence that causes your belief in the corruption of the Torah by the Jews to be merely a side-effect.

At the moment you simply want to believe the Torah is corrupt. You do not actually know, because if you knew, you could easily make it known to me.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-11-2005, 11:55 PM
I dont see what is wrong with this:
:lol: Well then... I suppose not everyone can recognize the logical fallacy there.

Do you not see that you are judging the validity of Islam based upon your irrelevant beliefs? No matter what someone believes it cannot change the validity of a point.

If I believe the sky is green, can I asses material in view of my flawed perception?

morrissey
04-12-2005, 12:06 AM
The discussion is clearly getting no where now.

Who cares why I reject Islam, I could be christian, hindu, spongebob squarepants.....

My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.

You are getting frustrated now, because you cannot convince me with mere emotion and presumptions.

I already believe you are a Noachide. But you are a Noachide who commits unfounded Lashon HaRa against the entire Jewish people.

Just show me the Lashon HaRa is not unfounded. That is all I ask.

morrissey
04-12-2005, 12:09 AM
Is this or is this not what you believe?


1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now


Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3....

morrissey
04-12-2005, 12:11 AM
asking me to believe without cold hard evidence is the same as asking me to have blind faith.

If blind faith is the primary requirement of having a religious belief, I might as well have stayed a christian.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2005, 12:14 AM
Who cares why I reject Islam
No one forced you to post in this thread. But shouldn't you have a reason?


My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.
True, but it is helpful to clear up people's misconceptions before teaching them the essentials.


Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3....
This will continue in the appropriate thread.

:w:

morrissey
04-12-2005, 12:29 AM
Ansar, you told me the answer to a question i asked on J4J was in this thread, and in order to view it I had to become a member here.

You invited me here, I am answering your question "Why do you reject Islam"

I have therefore responded, and shared with you that I reject it for many reasons:

But foremost:

1: It is unnecessary to my life

and

2: You make a slanderous claim against a nation of people, which could be interpretted as racist.

You are correct, point 2 is being discussed in another thread.

kadafi
04-12-2005, 07:24 AM
The discussion is clearly getting no where now.

Who cares why I reject Islam, I could be christian, hindu, spongebob squarepants.....

My reasons and beliefs should be irrelevant to your ability to prove to me without a doubt that your path is correct.

You are getting frustrated now, because you cannot convince me with mere emotion and presumptions.

I already believe you are a Noachide. But you are a Noachide who commits unfounded Lashon HaRa against the entire Jewish people.

Just show me the Lashon HaRa is not unfounded. That is all I ask. Dear morrissey, the reason why the discussion is takin' circle turns is due the fact that you not seem to concede the evidence that the today's Torah, (which you allegedly claim that it's still the Word of God), has been tampered.

The very fact that you seem to attributin' impertinent points to the discussion (i.e. me getting frustrated which is a cheap tactic to digress from the subject) obviously demonstrates that you really not want to discuss textual criticism concernin' the Torah. And then you persist on claimin' that it's still the Word of God while the evidence states the contrary.



1: The Torah (ie, the Word of G-d) has been corrupted by the Jews
2: One man, Mohammed re-received the original Torah, which he called the Quran
3: The Jews are illegitimate now


Prove point 1, with cold hard evidence, and I might start listening to you about points 2 and 3.... Not exactly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did not re-receive the Original Torah but he received the Final Revelation that also contained what was beneficial in the original Scriptures (i.e. Taurat, Injeel, etc).

Allah (Exalted is He) said in Aal 'Imraan, verse 3, interpretation of the meaning:
“It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’aan) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it

And in al-Maa’idah , verse 48:
“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed

So whatever good there was in the previous Scriptures is is to be found in the Glorious Qur'an.

The Torah contains textual inconsistency; the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text.

And the most compellin' fact that there is no such thing as the "original Torah" present day just like there is no such thing as the "Original Injeel" in the present day. You're also lackin' physical evidence such as credible manuscripts. Can the same be argued for the Qur'an? No.

In fact, when you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it reveals a large difference and problems of textual reliability. And I'll be willin' to discuss that.

morrissey
04-12-2005, 08:29 AM
Dear morrissey, the reason why the discussion is takin' circle turns is due the fact that you not seem to concede the evidence that the today's Torah, (which you allegedly claim that it's still the Word of God), has been tampered.

The very fact that you seem to attributin' impertinent points to the discussion (i.e. me getting frustrated which is a cheap tactic to digress from the subject) obviously demonstrates that you really not want to discuss textual criticism concernin' the Torah. And then you persist on claimin' that it's still the Word of God while the evidence states the contrary.


Not exactly, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) did not re-receive the Original Torah but he received the Final Revelation that also contained what was beneficial in the original Scriptures (i.e. Taurat, Injeel, etc).

Allah (Exalted is He) said in Aal 'Imraan, verse 3, interpretation of the meaning:
“It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’aan) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it

And in al-Maa’idah , verse 48:
“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed

So whatever good there was in the previous Scriptures is is to be found in the Glorious Qur'an.

The Torah contains textual inconsistency; the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text.

And the most compellin' fact that there is no such thing as the "original Torah" present day just like there is no such thing as the "Original Injeel" in the present day. You're also lackin' physical evidence such as credible manuscripts. Can the same be argued for the Qur'an? No.

In fact, when you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, it reveals a large difference and problems of textual reliability. And I'll be willin' to discuss that.

People accuse the Quran to have the same inconsistencies as you are accusing of the Jewish Torah.

And when you say Torah, are you refering to the Torah or the TaNaKh?

About the people who criticise the Quran, you claim the same things that I claim about people who criticise the Torah.

Unless you can lay it out on the table, I aint buyin.

I am not trying to sell the Torah to you. But you are trying to sell the Quran to me. I have no reason to trust it. For all I know Mohammed could have copied stories that the Jews told - apparently he had contact with Jews in Medina. We cant know for sure. Maybe he just misinterpreted the meaning of 'Chosen' when it came to the Jewish people. Not realising they were 'chosen' for the hard graft, whilst we, the non-Jews get the easy life. Maybe he thought it wasnt fair, and thought he'd do something about it. I dont know. The Jews are always forthcoming about their human weaknesses. Even Moshe didnt make it into the Promised Land because he disobeyed G-d. Did Mohammed ever show human weakness?


I need to know things without a doubt. While ever 'what if's' and 'could have's' ring around in my head, I will not buy into it. When being brought up in a christian home, I was told never to question and ask what if's and could have's, as it was the devil trying to lie to me, and I just had to believe, and not be a doubting Thomas.

I am not going to go backwards.

I left blind faith, just accepting tales as true to get out of h*ll.

I have found my home where I can ask 'what if' and 'could have' and 'maybe' (like i just asked a maybe about your prophet Mohammed, above), and I will not go to hell for it. I have discovered that the truth is not afraid of my questions. The truth embraces my questions.

I am begining to find my experience on this forum here might becoming to an end. Nothing has come into fruition, I still am riddled with doubts about Islam. I am sorry. It is nothing against any of you all.

I have been offended on occasions, and I wish people werent so anti-Jewish. It is soooo 1942, so very outdated. Why cant people just get along?

The view you guys hold of the Jews just fits into the pattern that has been the view of Jews since they left Egypt. You are offering nothing new, with your anti-Jewish views. If anything, they couldnt expect anything different.

They have survived to this day. Empires have fallen and the Jews remain, despite the most vile persecution and dispersion from their motherland. No other nation can stake this claim. It is truly miraculous....

kadafi
04-12-2005, 11:56 AM
People accuse the Quran to have the same inconsistencies as you are accusing of the Jewish Torah. I'm not accusin' anything. To me, accussin' connotes to accusin with out any credible evidence which automatically leads you to discreditin' yourself.

What I've brought forth is not a accusation but rather a criticism (based on evidence) that the Torah is corrupted (i.e. mutli-autorship, inconsistencies, etc)

Those who criticize the Qur'an are those who provide no evidence for such claim. Like I previously stated, the authenticity of the Qur'an is based on indisputable evidence. And I could care less what kinda allegation these polemics charge against the Qur'an, as long as they do not contain any evidence for their ludicrous claim, I would not even examine it.


And when you say Torah, are you refering to the Torah or the TaNaKh? Written Torah = TaNaKh




About the people who criticise the Quran, you claim the same things that I claim about people who criticise the Torah. Can you please stick to the topic, I rather do not wish to engage in futile discussions. All you seem to state are red herrings.


Unless you can lay it out on the table, I aint buyin. You have re-iterated this statement atleast 3 times but yet you will not be bothered to examine the evidence that reveal the corruption of the Torah. Not fair-minded at all. Plain in-denial. Pity though since I really had the assumption that all your reasons for not acceptin' Islam were sensible and logical.


I am not trying to sell the Torah to you. But you are trying to sell the Quran to me. I have no reason to trust it. For all I know Mohammed could have copied stories that the Jews told - apparently he had contact with Jews in Medina. We cant know for sure. Maybe he just misinterpreted the meaning of 'Chosen' when it came to the Jewish people. Not realising they were 'chosen' for the hard graft, whilst we, the non-Jews get the easy life. Maybe he thought it wasnt fair, and thought he'd do something about it. I dont know. The Jews are always forthcoming about their human weaknesses. Even Moshe didnt make it into the Promised Land because he disobeyed G-d. Did Mohammed ever show human weakness? Conjecture upon conjecture. First, there were no Christian and Jewish sources in Mecca. The Arabic gospel appeared hundreds of years later after the advent of Islam.

The IA team writes:
Thus the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic as shown below dates from first half of the ninth century.

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2005/04/OTarabic-1.gif

The Oldest Arabic Manuscript of the Old Testament (British Museum arab. 1475 [Add. 26116]).

The variety of Arabic versions of Job, of which a page of the oldest is shown here, is representative of Arabic versions of the Bible as a whole.

There are at least four different versions of Job, one of which is among the earliest documents of Christian Arabic literature. The manuscript Brit. Mus. arab. 1475, which contains extensive portions of it, was written in the first half of the ninth century, probably at the monastery of St. Sabas. The version itself is from a Syro-Hexaplar base. The author of another version of Job is known: Pethion (Fatyun ibn Aiyub), who was active as a translator in Baghdad probably about the middle of the ninth century; he is also credited with translations of Sirach and the Prophets. Pethion's text of Job is divided into fifteen chapters and (according to the London manuscript) claims to be translated from the Hebrew; actually the translator worked from a Syriac exemplar. Other versions of Job go back to the Pe****ta and to the Coptic (G. Graf 1944: 126).[16]

The IA team answers every allegation at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

Also, it's worthy to mention that Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was illiterate.

It's quite amusin' that you make alot of presumptions morrissey, while you simultaneously claim that you've found the Truth.

As Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-Baqara, verse 11:

And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

A proof that you still haven't produced morrissey.


I need to know things without a doubt. While ever 'what if's' and 'could have's' ring around in my head, I will not buy into it. When being brought up in a christian home, I was told never to question and ask what if's and could have's, as it was the devil trying to lie to me, and I just had to believe, and not be a doubting Thomas. Islam is a religion of proofs, there is no blind faith. A good article to read is:
Islam: The Religion of Proofs

Many people follow their religions blindly without proof under the justification that they “have faith.” Having faith in ideologies, belief systems, or religions that are not based upon clear proof is a source of falsehood and submission unto the conjectures and whims of men. Islam is based upon proofs. In fact, throughout the Noble Qur’an, Allah directly addresses man’s reason, and discusses the ayaat(proofs, evidences) that would lead man to accept Islam as the religion of truth for all of mankind.


More at http://clearproof.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/framed/2672/book.htm




I am begining to find my experience on this forum here might becoming to an end. Nothing has come into fruition, I still am riddled with doubts about Islam. I am sorry. It is nothing against any of you all. Then address these doubts based on proofs. Perhaps we can look at it. If you do not want to address them, then that is your choice which I fully respect, however, do not regard that these [doubts] are based on factual evidence.


I have been offended on occasions, and I wish people werent so anti-Jewish. It is soooo 1942, so very outdated. Why cant people just get along? If those racism-quotes-in -the-Talmud allegation quotes offended you, then wouldn't you agree that you offended Islam by posting an anti-islamic fabrication?

Now you have addressed these quotes and I wouldn't let them get to your head. If someone levels a charge against any Judaism, then it's your job to refute it. If you cannot refute it, then you've to acknowledge it which you fail to demonstrate. Several points have been left unanswered regardin' the Torah which is disappointin'.


The view you guys hold of the Jews just fits into the pattern that has been the view of Jews since they left Egypt. You are offering nothing new, with your anti-Jewish views. If anything, they couldnt expect anything different. With you guys, I presume that you mean with Muslims? Since when was anti-semitism potrayed in my posts? Can you provide evidence that Islam teaches anti-semitism? I think this really ridicilous to make such bold accusations. It's safe to say that I really haven't gained any perspective in this discussions apart from accusations and insults that my posts contains traits of anti-semitism.

Surah al-Baqarah, verse 120,
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Peace

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-12-2005, 10:21 PM
I hope Morrissey sincerely thinks about what Br. Kadafi has just written, and reads it carefully.

:w:

morrissey
04-13-2005, 02:03 AM
I'm not accusin' anything. To me, accussin' connotes to accusin with out any credible evidence which automatically leads you to discreditin' yourself.

What I've brought forth is not a accusation but rather a criticism (based on evidence) that the Torah is corrupted (i.e. mutli-autorship, inconsistencies, etc)

Those who criticize the Qur'an are those who provide no evidence for such claim. Like I previously stated, the authenticity of the Qur'an is based on indisputable evidence. And I could care less what kinda allegation these polemics charge against the Qur'an, as long as they do not contain any evidence for their ludicrous claim, I would not even examine it.

You are only providing allegations against the Torah, and no actual evidence. If I'd seen evidence, I would be satisfied. Obviously I am not satisfied...I can like wise say, You are criticising the Torah and providing no evidence for this claim. As long as I can found counter arguments, your 'claims' remain hot air, and simply wishful thinking on your part.


Written Torah = TaNaKh

Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.




Can you please stick to the topic, I rather do not wish to engage in futile discussions. All you seem to state are red herrings.

I only get red herrings from you. nothing tangible, nothing ground-breaking, earth-shattering or world-changing. If you had evidence, as you suggest, surely no-one would be Jewish anymore, because they have no other choice but to accept the cold hard evidence. You dont have evidence. I can imagine 'what if's and 'could have's' which conflict. Yu need to leave my mind without the ability to find any doubts.

Please give proof that can cause me to not need to ask 'what if'?


You have re-iterated this statement atleast 3 times but yet you will not be bothered to examine the evidence that reveal the corruption of the Torah. Not fair-minded at all. Plain in-denial. Pity though since I really had the assumption that all your reasons for not acceptin' Islam were sensible and logical.


You have not shown me any corruption in the Torah. I need to see it, in Hebrew, so not to lose meaning in translation. You are using translations. do you want me to judge the meanings in the Quran using the english language? Surely not. Why do you expect me to judge meanings in the Torah using the english language? (or arabic, chinese, french, or any other language foreign to the language that every Sefer Torah scroll is written in in every Orthodox Synagogue on the face of the globe.


Conjecture upon conjecture. First, there were no Christian and Jewish sources in Mecca. The Arabic gospel appeared hundreds of years later after the advent of Islam.

The IA team writes:
Thus the first translations of the Hebrew Bible in Arabic appeared after the advent of Islam. In fact, the oldest dated manuscript of the Old Testament in Arabic as shown below dates from first half of the ninth century.

https://www.islamicboard.com/images/imported/2005/04/OTarabic-1.gif

The Oldest Arabic Manuscript of the Old Testament (British Museum arab. 1475 [Add. 26116]).

The variety of Arabic versions of Job, of which a page of the oldest is shown here, is representative of Arabic versions of the Bible as a whole.

There are at least four different versions of Job, one of which is among the earliest documents of Christian Arabic literature. The manuscript Brit. Mus. arab. 1475, which contains extensive portions of it, was written in the first half of the ninth century, probably at the monastery of St. Sabas. The version itself is from a Syro-Hexaplar base. The author of another version of Job is known: Pethion (Fatyun ibn Aiyub), who was active as a translator in Baghdad probably about the middle of the ninth century; he is also credited with translations of Sirach and the Prophets. Pethion's text of Job is divided into fifteen chapters and (according to the London manuscript) claims to be translated from the Hebrew; actually the translator worked from a Syriac exemplar. Other versions of Job go back to the Pe****ta and to the Coptic (G. Graf 1944: 126).[16]

The IA team answers every allegation at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Bibindex.html

Also, it's worthy to mention that Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was illiterate.

You are still leaving me with questions...I could make (probably false, but to be the devils advocate, lets say it) an assumption that, you never know, he could have heard the Jewish storys, and had others transcribe them for him. Surely he wasnt deaf? Are you trying to tell me that Mohammed never met a Jew or christian in his life, before he revealled the Quran to the people of his town? This is a possibility, as you can never be sure who's met who in their life, and using their testimony is useless, as you have to use trust, yep, good old blind faith, to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe their words.


It's quite amusin' that you make alot of presumptions morrissey, while you simultaneously claim that you've found the Truth.

Presumptions are all you have about Judaism. You didnt even know what the Torah actually is, until I, a mere non-Jew, informed you.

As Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-Baqara, verse 11:


And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

Ok, does this mean we ask you for proof, or we try to prove things to you?

Well, If we arent meant to ask for proof, then you are definately asking me to have blind faith. Blind faith is good for any religion, as this is what pagans use to legitimise their beliefs. are you asking me to have blind faith?

Or are you saying that Noachides, christains and Jews are always on a mission to prove something? I know christians are, but Jews and Noachides are most definately no. I already consider a person a Noachide if they keep the 7 laws. It is up to them, I dont have to have any imput into their lives.

It is a complete lie that Jews say you cannot enter paradise unless you are a Jew. If you did some Jewish research, you would find that, in fact, the Jew believes that a Righteous Gentile can reach the lofty spiritual heights of the Kohen Godel, a height higher than any Jew can aspire to, who is not born as a Kohen!

From http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/man.html:


Talmud Avodah Zarah 3a

Rabbi Meir would say: How do we know that even a gentile who engages in the study of Torah is like a Jewish high priest? We learn from the verse (Leviticus 18:5) "which man (HaAdam=the man) shall do and by which he shall live [in the afterlife]."



A proof that you still haven't produced morrissey.

But I am not the one with something to prove. You are trying to prove to me that Islam is the right religion. I honestly dont care what you think about mine, it is your religion that is being 'sold' at the moment.


Islam is a religion of proofs, there is no blind faith. A good article to read is:
Islam: The Religion of Proofs

Many people follow their religions blindly without proof under the justification that they “have faith.” Having faith in ideologies, belief systems, or religions that are not based upon clear proof is a source of falsehood and submission unto the conjectures and whims of men. Islam is based upon proofs. In fact, throughout the Noble Qur’an, Allah directly addresses man’s reason, and discusses the ayaat(proofs, evidences) that would lead man to accept Islam as the religion of truth for all of mankind.


More at http://clearproof.faithweb.com/cgi-bin/framed/2672/book.htm

Well, I dont expect you to have blind faith, because being a Noachide is something that can only be proven to oneself, by oneself. There is not one Noachide who has been converted to this state by a Jew, that I am aware of, and because we are a small (but growing) population, I know alot of Noachides, and they would happily verify my claim about this. The Jew might give us guidance, but only after we have requested it from them.

You really dont have any concept of what it is to be a Noachide, and that has been proven with the likes of Ansar saying bizarre, unfounded presumptious statements like this, only a couple of weeks after finding out such a thing as a Noachide actually exists:


Currently, as a Noahide, you are following an empty set of laws without any spirit behind them. You have no form of Ibadah (worship), no comprehensive system that addresses political, social, environmental, physical, mental, spiritual spheres of life. No Holy Book to speak to you God's words and guidance. No traditions of a Prophet to extend to you the warmth of truth.

What a joke, I've never laughed so hard in my life at someones unashamed ignorance on a suject ;D



Then address these doubts based on proofs. Perhaps we can look at it. If you do not want to address them, then that is your choice which I fully respect, however, do not regard that these [doubts] are based on factual evidence.

If those racism-quotes-in -the-Talmud allegation quotes offended you, then wouldn't you agree that you offended Islam by posting an anti-islamic fabrication?

This was the entire point I was making when I posted them. I was posting them for arguments sake, you know, playing devils advocate. I never once suggested that I beleived they were real or professed I understood them. I merely asked questions in regards to them, do you not remember?

I was turning the tables. You give me an anti-Jewish interpretation of Jewish writings, and I can equally give you anti-Islamic interpretations of Muslim writings. It works both ways you know.




Now you have addressed these quotes and I wouldn't let them get to your head. If someone levels a charge against any Judaism, then it's your job to refute it. If you cannot refute it, then you've to acknowledge it which you fail to demonstrate. Several points have been left unanswered regardin' the Torah which is disappointin'.

You demonstrated that you didnt even understand what the Torah is, so how can I trust your interpretation of it? I never profess to interpret the Quran, why do you profess to interpret the Torah?


With you guys, I presume that you mean with Muslims? Since when was anti-semitism potrayed in my posts? Can you provide evidence that Islam teaches anti-semitism? I think this really ridicilous to make such bold accusations. It's safe to say that I really haven't gained any perspective in this discussions apart from accusations and insults that my posts contains traits of anti-semitism.

I have told you in another post, I wasnt accusing you personally. But a couple of people have - do you wish me to name names and quote quotes?




Surah al-Baqarah, verse 120,
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.


Wow, this shows that whoever wrote this was oblivious to Judaism. I could say it's correct about christians, as they are proud to missionize and declare people d*mned to eternal h*llfire, but the accusation that Jews want you to follow their religion is hilarious....do you know how difficult it is to convert to Judaism? They reject you a minimum of 3 times, because they believe being a Righteous Gentile is the legitimate path for the non-Jew. Already you have shown that you keep the 7 Laws, therefore the Jews have no issue with you. Except,obviously, when you set about trying to slander them and illegitimise them with your claims that they are corrupt.

Example of Jewish opinion on the non-Jew:

(from http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/gentiles.html ):


[I]Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Teshuvah 3:4 based on Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:1; Talmud Sanhedrin 105a:

Righteous gentiles have a place in the world to come.

Jerusalem Talmud Peah 1:1:

It says (Job 37:23): "With justice and an abundance of kindness, He does not deal harshly." G-d does not withhold reward from gentiles who perform His commandments.

Midrash Bamidbar Rabbah 8:2:

(Psalms 146:8) "G-d loves the righteous." G-d said: 'I love those who love Me and so it says (1 Samuel 2:30) "For I honor those who honor Me." They love Me so I love them in return.' Why does G-d love the righteous? Because righteousness is not an inheritance or a family trait. You find that priests are from a priestly family and Levites are from a levitical family as it says (Psalms 135:19-20) "O house of Aaron bless G-d! O house of Levi bless G-d!" If someone wants to become a priest [from the family of Aaron] or a Levite he cannot because his father was not a priest or a Levite. However, if someone wants to become righteous even if he is a gentile he can because it is not a family trait as it says (ibid.) "O those who fear G-d bless G-d!" It does not say the house of those who fear G-d but those who fear G-d. It is not a family trait rather on their own they chose to fear and love G-d. Therefore, G-d loves them.

Midrash Sifra, Acharei Mot 9:13:

(Leviticus 18:5) "Which man shall carry out and by which he shall live." Rabbi Yirmiyah would say: We see from here that even a gentile who fulfills his laws is like a [Jewish] high priest. He would also say: (2 Samuel 7:19) "And that would be fitting for priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "and that would be fitting for great men - O Lord G-d." He would also say: (Isaiah 26:2) "Open the gates so the priests, Levites, and Israelites may enter" is not what it says rather "Open the gates so the righteous nation, keeper of the faith, may enter." He would also say: (Psalms 118:20) "This is the gate of G-d; priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "This is the gate of G-d; the righteous shall enter through it." He would also say: (Psalms 33:1) "Sing joyfully, O priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "Sing joyfully, O righteous, because of G-d." He would also say: (Psalms 125:4) "Do good, G-d, to the priests, Levites, and Israelites" is not what it says rather "Do good, G-d, to good people."[B] We see from here that even a gentile who follows his commandments is [as righteous as the Jewish] high priest.

We dont take issue you with you at all. But you take issue with the Jewish nation, and that is something that does not exist within Judaism, towards other monotheistic religions. They view all ethical monotheists as having a place in the world to come, but I have gathered thus far, that you do not.

In my current position, as rejecting the Prophet Mohammed, but still embracing the One Creator of the Universe, as not being able to achieve your 'paradise'?

morrissey
04-13-2005, 02:58 AM
btw, I have noticed spelling errors in my post, and i apologise, but I type as fast as possible because I also have to look after my kids ;-) ... errors are an unfortunate side-effect.

root
04-13-2005, 04:59 PM
Why do you need a path to God?


Because lacking a path denies any purpose in life. What is the purpose of accepting the existence of God, without performing your duty on this planet? Do you really understand why you are here?

This debate has been quite complex. This said, I have read it in full and still disagree with your "Theory" of why we are here.

kadafi
04-13-2005, 05:19 PM
You are only providing allegations against the Torah, and no actual evidence. If I'd seen evidence, I would be satisfied. Obviously I am not satisfied...I can like wise say, You are criticising the Torah and providing no evidence for this claim. As long as I can found counter arguments, your 'claims' remain hot air, and simply wishful thinking on your part. Gee, you really are taking the term in-denial to a new level.

There is a certain extent where I get exasperated if the other side does not want to keep the discussion rational (i.e. affirmin' the evidence and sensible arguments).

Morrissey, how far are you acquainted with the Torah? Its history, its reliability. From what I've witnessed, the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text terms do not even a ring a bell. This leads to me conclude that you either haven't grasped the history of the Torah and the evidences of multi-authorship or you do not want to acknowledge it since it contradicts your notion that the Torah is inerrant.

I'm going to quote ONE evidence of the 'doublets' argument. I'm not going to touch the rest of the inconsistencies (diction & style, political assumptions etc.)



After this, the trend became to explain any and all discrepancies
through abstractism and elaborate interpretations, or through the
introduction of additional narrative details that did not appear in the
biblical text. Around this time, a startling new discovery was made.
It was noticed that the stories in the five books of Moses were made
up of doublets. A doublet is a case of one story being told twice.
Even in the English translation of the Bible, the doublets are
noticeable. These doublets have been masterfully intertwined so that
they become one narrative.

For example, there are doublets of the creation of the world, the
covenant between God and Abraham, the naming of Isaac, Abraham's
claim that his wife Sarah was his sister, the story of Jacob's journey to
Mesopotamia, Jacob's revelation at Beth-El,.......and on and on. In
many cases these doublets actually contradict one another. The
apologists once again jumped up with an explanation in hand. They
claimed that the doublets were complementary and not contradictive.
It was claimed that they came to teach us a lesson by their "apparent"
contradiction. However, this claim did not hold water for long. The
reason is that not long after, it was discovered that when the doublets
were separated into two separate accounts, each account was almost
always consistent about the name of the deity that it used. One would
always refer to God as Yahweh/Jehovah. This document was called
"J". The other always referred to Him as Elohim(God). It was called
"E". There were various other literary characteristics which were
then found to be common to one group or the other. It became
obvious that someone had taken two separate accounts of the ministry
of Moses (pbuh), cut them up, and then woven them together quite
masterfully so that their actions would not be discovered until
countless centuries later.

Once this startling discovery was made, the Old Testament was once
again placed under the scrutiny of scholars and it was discovered that
the Pentateuch was not made up of two major source documents but
FOUR. It was discovered that some stories were not only doublets,
but triplets. Additional literary characteristics were identified for
these documents. The third source was called P (for Priestly), and the
fourth D (for Deuteronomy). In the end it was concluded that the
first four "books of Moses" were the result of the merging of three
separate accounts which were called J, E, and P, and the book of
Deuteronomy was found to be a separate account which was called
D. The person (or persons) who collected and intertwined these
sources was called "The Redactor". Let us have a look at an example
of these doublets from Genesis 6:5 to 8:22. The Jehovah(J) text is in
regular type, THE PRIESTLY(P) IN CAPITALS:

Genesis 6:
-------------
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in
the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was
only evil continually.
Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have
created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the
creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have
made them.
Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Genesis 6:9 THESE ARE THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH:
NOAH WAS A JUST MAN AND PERFECT IN HIS
GENERATIONS, AND NOAH WALKED WITH GOD.
Genesis 6:10 AND NOAH BEGAT THREE SONS, SHEM, HAM,
AND JAPHETH.
Genesis 6:11 THE EARTH ALSO WAS CORRUPT BEFORE
GOD, AND THE EARTH WAS FILLED WITH VIOLENCE.
Genesis 6:12 AND GOD LOOKED UPON THE EARTH, AND,
BEHOLD, IT WAS CORRUPT; FOR ALL FLESH HAD
CORRUPTED HIS WAY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:13 AND GOD SAID UNTO NOAH, THE END OF ALL
FLESH IS COME BEFORE ME; FOR THE EARTH IS FILLED
WITH VIOLENCE THROUGH THEM; AND, BEHOLD, I WILL
DESTROY THEM WITH THE EARTH.
Genesis 6:14 MAKE THEE AN ARK OF GOPHER WOOD;
ROOMS SHALT THOU MAKE IN THE ARK, AND SHALT
PITCH IT WITHIN AND WITHOUT WITH PITCH.
Genesis 6:15 AND THIS IS THE FASHION WHICH THOU
SHALT MAKE IT OF: THE LENGTH OF THE ARK SHALL BE
THREE HUNDRED CUBITS, THE BREADTH OF IT FIFTY
CUBITS, AND THE HEIGHT OF IT THIRTY CUBITS.
Genesis 6:16 A WINDOW SHALT THOU MAKE TO THE ARK,
AND IN A CUBIT SHALT THOU FINISH IT ABOVE; AND THE
DOOR OF THE ARK SHALT THOU SET IN THE SIDE
THEREOF; WITH LOWER, SECOND, AND THIRD STORIES
SHALT THOU MAKE IT.
Genesis 6:17 AND, BEHOLD, I, EVEN I, DO BRING A FLOOD
OF WATERS UPON THE EARTH, TO DESTROY ALL FLESH,
WHEREIN IS THE BREATH OF LIFE, FROM UNDER HEAVEN;
AND EVERY THING THAT IS IN THE EARTH SHALL DIE.
Genesis 6:18 BUT WITH THEE WILL I ESTABLISH MY
COVENANT; AND THOU SHALT COME INTO THE ARK,
THOU, AND THY SONS, AND THY WIFE, AND THY SONS'
WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 6:19 AND OF EVERY LIVING THING OF ALL FLESH,
TWO OF EVERY SORT SHALT THOU BRING INTO THE ARK,
TO KEEP THEM ALIVE WITH THEE; THEY SHALL BE MALE
AND FEMALE.
Genesis 6:20 OF FOWLS AFTER THEIR KIND, AND OF
CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, OF EVERY CREEPING THING
OF THE EARTH AFTER HIS KIND, TWO OF EVERY SORT
SHALL COME UNTO THEE, TO KEEP THEM ALIVE.
Genesis 6:21 AND TAKE THOU UNTO THEE OF ALL FOOD
THAT IS EATEN, AND THOU SHALT GATHER IT TO THEE;
AND IT SHALL BE FOR FOOD FOR THEE, AND FOR THEM.
Genesis 6:22 THUS DID NOAH; ACCORDING TO ALL THAT
GOD COMMANDED HIM, SO DID HE.

Genesis 7:
-------------
Genesis 7:1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy
house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this
generation.
Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens,
the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the
male and his female.
Genesis 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the
female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
Genesis 7:4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the
earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I
have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
Genesis 7:5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord
commanded him.
Genesis 7:6 AND NOAH WAS SIX HUNDRED YEARS OLD
WHEN THE FLOOD OF WATERS WAS UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his
sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
Genesis 7:8 OF CLEAN BEASTS, AND OF BEASTS THAT ARE
NOT CLEAN, AND OF FOWLS, AND OF EVERY THING THAT
CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH,
Genesis 7:9 THERE WENT IN TWO AND TWO UNTO NOAH
INTO THE ARK, THE MALE AND THE FEMALE, AS GOD
HAD COMMANDED NOAH.
Genesis 7:10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of
the flood were upon the earth.
Genesis 7:11 IN THE SIX HUNDREDTH YEAR OF NOAH'S
LIFE, IN THE SECOND MONTH, THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF
THE MONTH, THE SAME DAY WERE ALL THE FOUNTAINS
OF THE GREAT DEEP BROKEN UP, AND THE WINDOWS OF
HEAVEN WERE OPENED.
Genesis 7:12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty
nights.
Genesis 7:13 IN THE SELFSAME DAY ENTERED NOAH, AND
SHEM, AND HAM, AND JAPHETH, THE SONS OF NOAH, AND
NOAH'S WIFE, AND THE THREE WIVES OF HIS SONS WITH
THEM, INTO THE ARK;
Genesis 7:14 THEY, AND EVERY BEAST AFTER HIS KIND,
AND ALL THE CATTLE AFTER THEIR KIND, AND EVERY
CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH
AFTER HIS KIND, AND EVERY FOWL AFTER HIS KIND,
EVERY BIRD OF EVERY SORT.
Genesis 7:15 AND THEY WENT IN UNTO NOAH INTO THE
ARK, TWO AND TWO OF ALL FLESH, WHEREIN IS THE
BREATH OF LIFE.
Genesis 7:16 AND THEY THAT WENT IN, WENT IN MALE
AND FEMALE OF ALL FLESH, AS GOD HAD COMMANDED
HIM: and the Lord shut him in.
Genesis 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the
waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the
earth.
Genesis 7:18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly
upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth;
and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were
covered.
Genesis 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the
mountains were covered.
Genesis 7:21 AND ALL FLESH DIED THAT MOVED UPON
THE EARTH, BOTH OF FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF
BEAST, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING THAT CREEPETH
UPON THE EARTH, AND EVERY MAN:
Genesis 7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that
was in the dry land, died.
Genesis 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was
upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping
things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the
earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in
the ark.
Genesis 7:24 AND THE WATERS PREVAILED UPON THE
EARTH AN HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS.


Genesis 8:
-------------
Genesis 8:1 AND GOD REMEMBERED NOAH, AND EVERY
LIVING THING, AND ALL THE CATTLE THAT WAS WITH
HIM IN THE ARK: AND GOD MADE A WIND TO PASS OVER
THE EARTH, AND THE WATERS ASSWAGED;
Genesis 8:2 THE FOUNTAINS ALSO OF THE DEEP AND THE
WINDOWS OF HEAVEN WERE STOPPED, and the rain from
heaven was restrained;
Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually:
AND AFTER THE END OF THE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS
THE WATERS WERE ABATED.
Genesis 8:4 AND THE ARK RESTED IN THE SEVENTH
MONTH, ON THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH,
UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ARARAT.
Genesis 8:5 AND THE WATERS DECREASED CONTINUALLY
UNTIL THE TENTH MONTH: IN THE TENTH MONTH, ON
THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, WERE THE TOPS OF THE
MOUNTAINS SEEN.
Genesis 8:6 And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah
opened the window of the ark which he had made:
Genesis 8:7 AND HE SENT FORTH A RAVEN, WHICH WENT
FORTH TO AND FRO, UNTIL THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:8 Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters
were abated from off the face of the ground;
Genesis 8:9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and
she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of
the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled
her in unto him into the ark.
Genesis 8:10 And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent
forth the dove out of the ark;
Genesis 8:11 And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in
her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters
were abated from off the earth.
Genesis 8:12 And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the
dove; which returned not again unto him any more.
Genesis 8:13 AND IT CAME TO PASS IN THE SIX
HUNDREDTH AND FIRST YEAR, IN THE FIRST MONTH, THE
FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP
FROM OFF THE EARTH: and Noah removed the covering of the
ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
Genesis 8:14 AND IN THE SECOND MONTH, ON THE SEVEN
AND TWENTIETH DAY OF THE MONTH, WAS THE EARTH
DRIED.
Genesis 8:15 AND GOD SPAKE UNTO NOAH, SAYING,
Genesis 8:16 GO FORTH OF THE ARK, THOU, AND THY WIFE,
AND THY SONS, AND THY SONS' WIVES WITH THEE.
Genesis 8:17 BRING FORTH WITH THEE EVERY LIVING
THING THAT IS WITH THEE, OF ALL FLESH, BOTH OF
FOWL, AND OF CATTLE, AND OF EVERY CREEPING THING
THAT CREEPETH UPON THE EARTH; THAT THEY MAY
BREED ABUNDANTLY IN THE EARTH, AND BE FRUITFUL,
AND MULTIPLY UPON THE EARTH.
Genesis 8:18 AND NOAH WENT FORTH, AND HIS SONS, AND
HIS WIFE, AND HIS SONS' WIVES WITH HIM:
Genesis 8:19 EVERY BEAST, EVERY CREEPING THING, AND
EVERY FOWL, AND WHATSOEVER CREEPETH UPON THE
EARTH, AFTER THEIR KINDS, WENT FORTH OUT OF THE
ARK.
Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of
every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings
on the altar.
Genesis 8:21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said
in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;
for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I
again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and
cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not


Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place. Dear morrissey, I do not possess the time to inform you about the basics of Judaism. The written Torah is often used to describe the TaNaKh.

The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses (http://www.jewfaq.org/defs/moses.htm): Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.

To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh.

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm




You are still leaving me with questions...I could make (probably false, but to be the devils advocate, lets say it) an assumption that, you never know, he could have heard the Jewish storys, and had others transcribe them for him. Surely he wasnt deaf? Are you trying to tell me that Mohammed never met a Jew or christian in his life, before he revealled the Quran to the people of his town? This is a possibility, as you can never be sure who's met who in their life, and using their testimony is useless, as you have to use trust, yep, good old blind faith, to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe their words. Other questions? Or is it that you cannot acknowledge the merits of these answers which leads you making more questions.

Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not have any religious discussions with Jews or Christians. The only occassion where he did have one with them was 13 years after the revelation of the Glorious Qur'an had initiated. Propet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah) teached them the Tawheed (Islamic monotheism). Most of them embraced Islam.

The link that I used as reference elobrates the matter in a more detailed way. In addition, I also like to cite this article byDR. Jamal A. Badawi that also sheds light on the issue:



At least three questions may shed light on this issue:






What was Muhammad's background and education before he started his mission at the age of forty, and to what extent could such background have resulted in what he brought forth?
What was the extent of his 'contacts" with Jews and Christians, and to what extent could such contacts have resulted in the faith he proclaimed?
Analytically speaking, how far can the Judaeo-Christian thought be traced in what Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) taught? And if there is any similarities between both teachings, how could that be explained?
(1) The Question of Background: Historically speaking, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was an illiterate man. There is no evidence that he knew how to read or write. Even the Qur'an which he stated was the Word of God was not written down by him but he dictated it to the "scribes of revelation" who wrote it down and committed it to memory. Another historical document that is still available is the letter sent by Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) to the ruler of Egypt inviting him to accept Islam[23] (http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm#_note23). This letter written for Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) carries his seal rather than his signature. Besides the lack of significant education, formal or otherwise, religious or secular, there is no account in his life, until the age of forty, that shows his scholarly tendencies or achievements in any of the spectrum of subjects with which the Qur'an deals. How could such an illiterate man, suddenly, at the age of forty, bring about an ideological and religious revolution that changed the face of history?

(2) The Question of Environment: As we looked into the man's background, we may as well look into the type of environment in which he was reared in order to see the extent of his possible exposure to Judaeo-Christian thought. Unlike Moses (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who was reared in a center of learning and civilization , and unlike Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and other Israelite prophets who emerged in the center of Judaism, if not in the religious hierarchy[24] (http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm#_note24) itself, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was raised in a predominantly pagan society with no significant Jewish tribes lived, was too far to be considered as part of Muhammad's immediate environment, especially when the seventh century means of transportation and communication are considered.

Some may assert, however, that through his travels with the caravans, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) might have learned about Judaism and Christianity. The danger in a statement like this is not in its theoretical possibility. The danger lies instead in the hasty and superficial conclusions that are often based on it. Assuming that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) met some Jews and Christians during his travels, or when the latter visited Mecca, which is a fair assumption, what was the extent of his exposure to their teachings? Was such as exposure sufficient to raise reasonable doubts that he copied or compiled the Qur'an from their scriptures?

Historically speaking, and in spite of the reasonable details about Muhammad's life, there is evidence of two travels that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) made, both to Syria. In one trip, he accompanied his uncle as a twelve-year old boy. Would it be reasonable to assume that during such a trip, a twelve-year old boy would learn all the high concepts of theology which were at that time the exclusive knowledge of high priests? In the second trip, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was twenty-five years old, and he was leading Khadija's caravan[25] (http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm#_note25). It would be highly imaginary to say that through his occasional chats with Jews and Christians, while busy with his caravan, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) learned enough about either or both religions to formulate a new powerful and viable religion, a task that defies the collective efforts of scholars for centuries. Furthermore, the above assertion does not provide answers to the following questions:

Why is it, that in spite of the abundance of historical material on Muhammad's life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, why was it not possible to discover that mysterious teacher (s) through whom Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) might have learned all that?
It is known that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was opposed, ridiculed and persecuted for nearly thirteen years by his own contemporaries. With this magnitude of severe enemies, was it not possible for them to prove to the masses that Muhammad's claim of revelation was sheer fabrication ? Was it not possible for them to reveal and name what they alleged to be the human source or sources of his teachings?[26] (http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm#_note26). Even some of his adversaries who made this assertion changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or of being possessed by evil…etc.
Muhammad was raised among his people and every aspect of his life was exposed to them, especially by the openness that characterizes tribal life in the desert[27] (http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm#_note27). How could the multitudes of his contemporaries, including many of his close relatives who knew him so well, -- how could they believe in his truthfulness if they had any doubt that he was claiming credit for ideas taught to him by some other teachers without bothering to give them credit?
What kind of teacher might have taught Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) a coherent and complete religion that changed the face of history? Why didn't he claim the credit for himself? Why couldn't he or they (if any) speak against the alleged student who continued learning from them, while ignoring them and claiming some other divine source for his teachings?
How could many Jews and Christians amongst his contemporaries become Muslims and believe in his truthfulness if they knew that he was copying from their scriptures or learning from their priests or rabbis?
It is known that some Qur'anic revelations came to Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in the presence of people. The Qur'an was revealed on the span of twenty-three years, where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible human teacher of Muhammad? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) who was constantly surrounded by his followers, how was he able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher or teachers for twenty-three years without being caught even once?
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethoodanalytical/mproph_judao.htm




Ok, does this mean we ask you for proof, or we try to prove things to you? You haven't conceived the meaning of the verse. Jews (just like the Christians) have this notion that only the Choson ones can inherit the real Paradise. Bear in mind that the Paradise of of the Gentiles (Noachides) is NOTHING compared to what the Jews will receive.

And then lastly, you ranted on and quoted excerpts from Gil Student's site.

Allow me to expose the parts where he distorted his texts and concealed parts that promoted racism.

Review of Gill Student's website by Sasson Lerner at

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/students.cfm

A fragment of the conclusion:
Finally, as noted at the beginning of this essay, Student's work is plagued by an explicitly apologetic stance. Contrary to his site's title, he is interested not in "the real truth about the Talmud" but in demonstrating that Early Rabbinic sources "are not racist or derogatory to gentiles." Like in the old joke about the difference between a researcher and a preacher, the conclusion is given – what facts can we find to support it? With this kind of attitude there is little wonder that most of Student's quotations of Early Rabbinic sources are too much selective or one-sided, preventing an unsuspecting reader from the outset from appreciating fully the texts and the issues involved – and that sometimes he is driven to plainly wrong interpretations of the sources he used (like taking the discussion in Berakhot 25b to mean that gentiles are to be considered non-animals generally, rather than specifically in regard to the issue of nakedness). In short, those people who "lack the scholarly background" to understand the Early Rabbinic sources on their own would gain nothing, and miss much, by turning to Student's site for aid. [Which you have been in engaging morrissey]He also states:
But a good place to start may be Sacha Stern's Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings (Leiden: Brill, 1994), which had its origins in the Ph.D. thesis written by this Orthodox Jewish scholar in the St. Cross College of Oxford. As its title bespeaks, it not only analyzes a large number of Early Rabbinic sources touching, inter alia, on the perception of and relation to gentiles, but also strives to comprehend these sources in the larger framework of Jewish identity, as these sources and the people standing behind them understood and cultivated it.

Let's see what Stern concludes in his book:

To conclude, rabbinic sources suggest that although the title of "man" is restricted to Israel, in some sense Israel transcend the level of humanity, and have some affinity with angels and even with God. The nations, who have an intrinsic affinity with animals, stand in radical contrast to them... Righteous and angelic, the superiority of Israel over the nations should be by now self-evident. Rabbinic sources do not shy from stating that Israel are the choicest of all nations, the best, the greatest, the highest, the most beloved of the Almighty. One Jew outweighs all the nations put together. Appropriately, every morning is recited the daily blessing "that He has not made me a non-Jew".

This superiority is said, in Talmudic and other sources, to provide substantial benefits to Israel. According to the prevailing opinion, Israel are immune from the astrological influence of constellations. "Israel are sons of kings"; "all Israel are worthy of kingship". Israel are not fit for slavery, for "'They are My slaves (says the Almighty)', and not slaves of any other slaves". A non-Jew who hits a Jew is punishable by death. According to later sources, touching Israel is tantamount to sacrilege, for they are holy. Israel are compared to the beach upon which the waves cannot prevail; so the nations continuously threaten Israel, but never to any avail. "Israel are mighty before the nations"; like God, they are masters over all the inhabitants of earth.


Peace

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 07:36 PM
Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.



The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm


SubhanAllah, that's going to be very tough for Morrissey to swallow. Kadafi has to teach her about her own religion. :) She should have thought twice before making such a comment.

:w:

Khattab
04-13-2005, 08:05 PM
Exactly especially against brother kadafi a master on comparative religion!

morrissey
04-13-2005, 09:42 PM
Why do you need a path to God?

?

This debate has been quite complex. This said, I have read it in full and still disagree with your "Theory" of why we are here.

This isnt something I said - are you attributing it to me?

I'm not here to try and convert anyone to anything. I state this repetitively.

A 'path' is being offered to me when I have already arrived as a Noachide. I dont know why I need to find G-d through Islam when I already have found the Creator of the Universe?

My experience here is that of an ice salesman trying to sell ice to an eskimo....

morrissey
04-13-2005, 10:01 PM
Islam needs anti-semitism to survive. The very foundation of Islam is the slanderous baseless claim that the Jewish people corrupted their writings.

You NEED this to be true. You need to make illegitmate an entire nation. You have unsuccessfully taken 9 pages in trying to convince me.

You cannot even see the historical pattern which you are merely just a part of.
Since the birth of the Jewish people when they left Egypt, every major empire and nation has tried to claim what you claim - that the Jews are illegitimate and therefore should no longer exist. (you think they should abandon their Jewish beliefs and assimilate into your foriegn beliefs, therefore no longer exist).

Why do you think you are trying to teach me something new and revolutionary about the Jewish people? People like you have been hating the Jews for millenia (not just centuries, MILLENIA).

What makes you new and innovative?

The Egyptians wanted to destroy the Jews, The Romans, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Christians, the Germans etc etc . You are no different. You are just in the Jew-hating club. Wow, congratulations. Arent you really clever.

But for millenia, the Jewish people have survived despite their persecution. This is one of the biggest undeniable factors which is one of the factors which actually makes religions such as yours suspicious and paranoid.

Nothing has stopped the Jewish people. Other nations disappear with time and archaeology, when they have been treated merely but once, in the manner the Jews have suffered. The Jews have been strong despite massacres, holocausts, forced assimilation, dispersion from their homeland.

Why?

Me-thinks G-d has a hand in their miraculous survival.

Think what you want. If it makes you satisfied in life to try and prove that an entire nation of people are fools, then be my guest.

I cannot stomach such Lashon HaRa. Such things are not written in my soul.

I therefore have no other option but to reject Islam.

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 10:02 PM
Root was talking to me, and I'll get his post later. But Morrissey, why don't you respond to Br. Kadafi?

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 10:05 PM
I think you missed something, Morrissey:


Okie dokie....this shows your lack of knowledge of Judaism.

The Torah is the first 5 books of the TaNaKh.....And you are professing to have knowledge on the subject? Gee, you dont even understand what the Torah is in the first place.



The Written Torah is often called the Tanakh, which stands for Torah (T), Nevi'im (N) and Ketuvim (K).

http://judaism.about.com/cs/judaismbasics/f/torah.htm


SubhanAllah, that's going to be very tough for Morrissey to swallow. Kadafi has to teach her about her own religion. :) She should have thought twice before making such a comment.

:w:

All you have given us is an emotional response:

You are just in the Jew-hating club.
Yet you don't realize that Racism is haraam in Islam, read Suratul Hujurat, which explicitly forbids it.

www.IslamdenouncesAntisemitism.com

morrissey
04-13-2005, 10:26 PM
I'm going to leave the forum Ansar. The anti-semitism is making me nauseous. I had a dodgy stomach from hearing such hatred against the Jews, and had to take bed-rest. I guess my heart doesnt believe in illegitmising a group of people. To see it happening in real life is shocking, like when I watched Schindlers List. My youngest son I named Oskar, in rememberence of that Hero. Someone who didnt judge anyone, or try to illegitmise them to further his cause. (So to Crystal Eyes, how can I be Jewish if I give my son the name Oskar? If it were Yitzchak, you might have reason to be suspicious, Oskar is a huge give-away that I am indeed not Jewish).

I cannot be bothered with Kadafis post, he obviously, didnt read mine, so I am wasting my time when I could be spending it more fruitfully with my children.

Ansar, I came here open minded, ready to face the fears I thought were unfounded. But instead from what you all say, my fears have only been realised.

So I am going.

Say what you like about me, you are only a human being, and I know HaShem knows my heart, and I stand honest before Him at all times (because it is impossible to do otherwise, since I cannot escape Him).

Good bye

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 11:00 PM
After a very simple dialogue you claim Anti-Semitism, yet my Jewish friends who are regular attendants on this forum know that I harbour no such feelings.

If our view of the Torah is "anti-semitic", I wonder what we should call your view of Prophet Muhammad saws. In that case, it is even more racist, since you deny his prophethood yet we do not deny the divine origin of the Torah, only the preservation of it.

I think you are acting in an emotional manner, and I hope when you calm down you will reconsider this decision.

:w:

Khattab
04-13-2005, 11:01 PM
Jew-Hating?

I will tell you something, before I even read a word of the Qu'ran in my language I used to have hate for jews, I mean I had a real dislike for them for what they where doing and are still doing to the muslims. However since I picked up the Qu'ran and read I have come to love the storys of the Children Of Israel and Moses (PBUH), and since I have read it the hatred has gone from my heart, truly I have no malice at all towards honest living jews, where as before I had even read the Qu'ran I hated them no matter what, but since reading it and understanding the hate has completely gone. Judaism is a religion that I respect, more than any other religion outside of Islam, due to the belief in Tawheed (ie Oneness) of Allah (SWT). This was further enhanced by seeing members coming from the Jews For Judaism site (I think thats the name) who have conducted themselves very well and answered many questions on there religion.

Im sorry to say but to label us Jew-Hating, is just a cop out because you are unable to refute the points raised.

Wa'Salam

Ansar Al-'Adl
04-13-2005, 11:19 PM
Judaism is a religion that I respect, more than any other religion outside of Islam, due to the belief in Tawheed (ie Oneness) of Allah (SWT).

I think that is a very powerful testimony against the notion of anti-semitism.

:thumbs_up

:w:

SpaceFalcon2001
04-14-2005, 12:38 AM
Morrissey, how far are you acquainted with the Torah? Its history, its reliability. From what I've witnessed, the Variations in the Divine Names in Genesis; the Secondary Variations in Diction and Style; the parallel or Duplicate Accounts (Doublets); the Continuity of the Various Sources; and the political assumptions implicit in the text terms do not even a ring a bell. So A godly document is not allowed to vary in any of those ways? The Quran varies just as easily.

Do you deny that there are 99 names of God in the Quran? Your best argument is that they are all descriptive and not equivilent to Allah, but you do not grant us the same flexability? The same is true. Allah did not reveal his personal name to Muhammed or his followers (at least I have not read any instance where such is declared), instead Allah is equal to the Hebrew El and Elohim. The other names are descriptive, with the exception of YHVH, the true name of God which was revealed to Moses.


Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) did not have any religious discussions with Jews or Christians. The only occassion where he did have one with them was 13 years after the revelation of the Glorious Qur'an had initiated. Propet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allah) teached them the Tawheed (Islamic monotheism). Most of them embraced Islam. If you speak of what happend at Media, Banu Qainuqa, the Jews, were expelled, and the remainder of the city converted.

You haven't conceived the meaning of the verse. Jews (just like the Christians) have this notion that only the Choson ones can inherit the real Paradise. Bear in mind that the Paradise of of the Gentiles (Noachides) is NOTHING compared to what the Jews will receive. This is simply a faceless lie, there is only one paradise, and it is open to all.

Abdul Fattah
04-14-2005, 01:56 AM
selam alaikum
First of all I admire your attempts to convince other people of the truth as I admire your knowledge on the subject. I would however bring something else up to everybody's attention. Please refrain from "attacking" other religions. This will only result in other people attaking islam.
Surely there is more then enoughf proof, as there are miracles; in the qur'an to convince people.

@ morrissey:
I hope you haven't already left over this discussion. Surely as you are passionate about your believe you'd understand the same of others, and see how we'r al just tryin' to help one another. The feelings (you have about your religion) you've come to discribe are very familiar. And that's actualy quite normal since the book that insired you is by the same god as the book that inspired me. I know there is nothing I can say that wil make make you change your mind. Every attempt to describe the very essence of the reasons why I reverted to Islam would not come close to that essence. I would however like to give you this one advise: If there ever comes a time in your life in wich you feel tested in your beliefs, you feel in doubt. For the benefith of the doubt, READ!!!

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

Chuck
04-14-2005, 04:27 AM
This is simply a faceless lie, there is only one paradise, and it is open to all.

So whats the point in being a Jew? In this sense, it is better for person to be a Noachide than a Jew as they have less commandments. Do you think it would be fair to the Jews?

SpaceFalcon2001
04-14-2005, 05:02 AM
So whats the point in being a Jew? He choose to have us to follow his Torah, and we accepted. He didn't choose us for a special reward, and we didn't accept it because we were promised special treatement. Our mission is to follow the law He gave us.That's the point.

Do you think it would be fair to the Jews? You'll have to ask God that question, but He has laid out our way of life and how we should live for us to best serve Him.

This is why Judaism is tolerant of other paths for non-Jews. God didn't tell us to force everyone to act like us, He just personalized our path for His reasons. Maybe it is to make our lives harder, to give us more ways in which to do good, but it's what He gave us, and we're stuck with it.

Khattab
04-14-2005, 02:49 PM
SpaceFalcon, Allah (SWT) has more than 99 names in the Quran, and a further Ten which are hidden from mankind I believe

kadafi
04-14-2005, 03:59 PM
So A godly document is not allowed to vary in any of those ways? The Quran varies just as easily.

Do you deny that there are 99 names of God in the Quran? Your best argument is that they are all descriptive and not equivilent to Allah, but you do not grant us the same flexability? The same is true. Allah did not reveal his personal name to Muhammed or his followers (at least I have not read any instance where such is declared), instead Allah is equal to the Hebrew El and Elohim. The other names are descriptive, with the exception of YHVH, the true name of God which was revealed to Moses. I think you misconstrued the point I was making.

With these Divine name Variations, I was referrin' to Elohim being used in source texts that are derived from the early nothern traditions of the Kingdom of Israel while Jehova (Yahweh) is used in texts that are derived from southern traditions, of the kingdom of Judah (and Jerusalem).

For example, the doublets of the Genesis narrations use these variations of Divine names.

The 'Who wrote the Bible' by Friedman explains the argument in a comphrensive way. I recommend it.

The Qur'an doesn't suffer from these allegations and thesis' because we have transmissions dating back to the Prophet's time and we have early manuscripts.



If you speak of what happend at Media, Banu Qainuqa, the Jews, were expelled, and the remainder of the city converted. You are aware of the specific reason why the children of Qaynuqa were expelled?

http://bismikaallahuma.org/History/Jews/qaynuqa.htm

Furthermore, in spite of the fact that Banu Qainuqa were expelled, the remaining number of other Jews was quite huge.


This is simply a faceless lie, there is only one paradise, and it is open to all. This is not a lie, as a Muslim, I'll be accounted if I propagate a lie. I've no intention of fabricating lies in order to strengthen my argument.

You are correct that there is only one 'next world' in the Judaistic tenets and that those who obey the 7 Laws (i.e. Noachides) will have a share in the next world BUT, that share doesn't equal the same share that a Jew receives in the next world. There is no chance that a Noachide will receive the same reward as a Jew who obeys the 613 laws and are favoured as God's Chosen people.

SpaceFalcon2001
04-14-2005, 09:59 PM
With these Divine name Variations, I was referrin' to Elohim being used in source texts that are derived from the early nothern traditions of the Kingdom of Israel while Jehova (Yahweh) is used in texts that are derived from southern traditions, of the kingdom of Judah (and Jerusalem). The documentary hypothesis is extremely theoretical. They accuse different parts of the torah to be written by different people simply because they do not appreciate the writing style.

Yes there are doublets. Often, they show events from a different point. For example Genisis 1 and 2 are accused doublets, yet they clearly describe creation in 2 different places and times! 1 for the earth in general and 2 in the Garden of Eden.

The Qur'an doesn't suffer from these allegations and thesis' because we have transmissions dating back to the Prophet's time and we have early manuscripts. Then what's your point?

You are aware of the specific reason why the children of Qaynuqa were expelled? There was an escalating quarrel between families, and when they felt they had enough reason, they kicked them out.

You are correct that there is only one 'next world' in the Judaistic tenets and that those who obey the 7 Laws (i.e. Noachides) will have a share in the next world BUT, that share doesn't equal the same share that a Jew receives in the next world. What is your proof for this? Those who do good are rewarded for doing so.

And again, being chosen DOES NOT imply favor.

kadafi
04-15-2005, 05:31 PM
The documentary hypothesis is extremely theoretical. They accuse different parts of the torah to be written by different people simply because they do not appreciate the writing style. 'Extremely' is exaggerated. The Document hypothesis is the most plausible thesis. The only reason why it hasn't been accepted as a fact is 'cause the theory is suggestin' to identify those 4 authors and which time-period.

For more info, consult the article titled Torah (Pentateuch) in the Anchor Bible dictionary. It analyzes the evidence of the thesis and list the reasons why most scholars accepted it.

The fact remains that if you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will notice inconsistencies which seems to apparant in the present-day Bible and Torah[Taurat].


Yes there are doublets. Often, they show events from a different point. For example Genisis 1 and 2 are accused doublets, yet they clearly describe creation in 2 different places and times! 1 for the earth in general and 2 in the Garden of Eden. That's accordin' to your (Jewish) interpretation. When one compares these doublets, it reveals that they do not agree in tone, structure, style etc. Hence why the first creation story is attributed the the R writer and the second to the P writer.

It's obvious that the creation story is referrin' to the same event and not two different events as you allegedly claimed.


What is your proof for this? Those who do good are rewarded for doing so.

And again, being chosen DOES NOT imply favor. I think I covered this in my previous [unanswered] post. Furthermore, it also requires simple logic that a Gentile who obeys the 7 Laws (Noachide) only receives a small share in the next world whilst a Jew who obeys the 613 Laws receives a larger share. By claimin' that they receive the same reward demonstrates that you're not honest.


Early Rabbinic materials revealed that the Jews were those who God favoured (i.e. Chosen people).

The dictionary defines Chosen as: To prefer above others

Dr. Rabbi Sacha Stern writes in his book [i]Jewish Identity in Early Rabbinic Writings:
To conclude, rabbinic sources suggest that although the title of "man" is restricted to Israel, in some sense Israel transcend the level of humanity, and have some affinity with angels and even with God. The nations, who have an intrinsic affinity with animals, stand in radical contrast to them... Righteous and angelic, the superiority of Israel over the nations should be by now self-evident. Rabbinic sources do not shy from stating that Israel are the choicest of all nations, the best, the greatest, the highest, the most beloved of the Almighty. One Jew outweighs all the nations put together. Appropriately, every morning is recited the daily blessing "that He has not made me a non-Jew".

This superiority is said, in Talmudic and other sources, to provide substantial benefits to Israel. According to the prevailing opinion, Israel are immune from the astrological influence of constellations. "Israel are sons of kings"; "all Israel are worthy of kingship". Israel are not fit for slavery, for "'They are My slaves (says the Almighty)', and not slaves of any other slaves". A non-Jew who hits a Jew is punishable by death. According to later sources, touching Israel is tantamount to sacrilege, for they are holy. Israel are compared to the beach upon which the waves cannot prevail; so the nations continuously threaten Israel, but never to any avail. "Israel are mighty before the nations"; like God, they are masters over all the inhabitants of earth.


Additionaly, the fact that Gentiles are seen as 'donkeys' or 'not-human' also demonstrates that the Jews are superior to the righteous Gentiles.

Peace

SpaceFalcon2001
04-17-2005, 11:14 PM
The Document hypothesis is the most plausible thesis. It's plausability is extremely suspect.

The fact remains that if you compare the readings of the Masoretic Text and the Dead Sea Scrolls, you will notice inconsistencies which seems to apparant in the present-day Bible[Injeel] and Torah[Taurat]. The only inconsistancies found were some additional sentances in Job. I would hardly call that an invalidation of Torah.

That's accordin' to your (Jewish) interpretation. When one compares these doublets, it reveals that they do not agree in tone, structure, style etc. They are quite obvious, when read together, that they refer to different events. Why doesn't the first of these doublets speak of a**** and eve? Why does the second doublet say specifically the Garden of eden and then detail it's creation, including Adam and eve?
Unless you think the garden of Eden is a codeword for earth, then they cannot refer to the same event.

It only demonstrates that you only seek an interpretation that you find the least agreeable.
[quote]Early Rabbinic materials revealed that the Jews were those who God favoured (i.e. Chosen people). Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:26 - "And you (the Jews) shall remain holy unto Me, for I, God, am holy and I have separated you from the nations to be mine."
We exist to carry out the will of God and his Torah. That is what chosen means. It doesn't grant superficial benefits.

The dictionary defines Chosen as: To prefer above others Yes prefer. To preform a certain task. That is the Jewish people were prefered to follow the laws of God because other nations rejected those laws.

Additionaly, the fact that Gentiles are seen as 'donkeys' or 'not-human' also demonstrates that the Jews are superior to the righteous Gentiles. Again, you have much trouble proving such quotes even exist, or even seeing them in context. You have no qualms taking them from biased sites who have seen the talmud as many times as you have. You might want to actually find a copy and examine the page it's on before you judge. I don't base my opinion of the Quran from biased sites, I actually look up those passages. Jews do not see non-Jews as donkeys or inhuman, and neither does the talmud.

kadafi
04-18-2005, 11:02 PM
The only inconsistancies found were some additional sentances in Job. I would hardly call that an invalidation of Torah. Interestin', a news article published at the 'Jewish Week' in 2001 states the contrary.

Excerpt:
Complete Scrolls show Torah's evolution, scholars say
The scrolls, he said, confirm the evolutionary nature of the Torah, showing there were additions, subtractions and other editing changes during its formation......Those who believe that every letter of the Torah was given by God to Moses unchanged throughout history, Schiffman said, are going to have problems with proof of different but valid biblical texts found at Qumran.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/17247/edition_id/341/format/html/displaystory.html


They are quite obvious, when read together, that they refer to different events. Why doesn't the first of these doublets speak of a**** and eve? Why does the second doublet say specifically the Garden of eden and then detail it's creation, including Adam and eve?
Unless you think the garden of Eden is a codeword for earth, then they cannot refer to the same event. They do not refer to different events since they're both creation stories. The first creation story elobrates whilst the second one summarizes it. But let's stick to the point that these events are creation stories. The interestin' point is that the first creation story (Elohim created,,,etc) contradicts the second story in terms of sequence.

Accordin' to the Genesis 1, the sequence is plants, animals and man/woman. In Genesis 2, the sequence is man, plants, animals and woman.


It only demonstrates that you only seek an interpretation that you find the least agreeable. You haven't answered the point my friend.


Vayikra (Leviticus) 20:26 - "And you (the Jews) shall remain holy unto Me, for I, God, am holy and I have separated you from the nations to be mine."

We exist to carry out the will of God and his Torah. That is what chosen means. It doesn't grant superficial benefits. You've dodged what I cited, early Rabbinic sources [boasted] how they were God's Chosen people. The favorites of God, while the righteous Gentiles [Noachides] are degraded.


Again, you have much trouble proving such quotes even exist, or even seeing them in context. You have no qualms taking them from biased sites who have seen the talmud as many times as you have. You might want to actually find a copy and examine the page it's on before you judge. I don't base my opinion of the Quran from biased sites, I actually look up those passages. Jews do not see non-Jews as donkeys or inhuman, and neither does the talmud. I didn't cite any quotes regardin' the racial view towards Gentiles, nor did I quote sources of biased sites. I verify before I even cite a quote.

The article that refuted the propagada from Student's [so-called] refutation that Gentiles are not perceived as animals discusses it. It provides references of early Rabbinic sources to verify it.

SpaceFalcon2001
04-20-2005, 05:01 AM
They do not refer to different events since they're both creation stories. The first creation story elobrates whilst the second one summarizes it. But let's stick to the point that these events are creation stories. The interestin' point is that the first creation story (Elohim created,,,etc) contradicts the second story in terms of sequence. In different places. You continually ignore that, willingly.

You've dodged what I cited, early Rabbinic sources [boasted] how they were God's Chosen people. The favorites of God, while the righteous Gentiles [Noachides] are degraded. The laws of the noachide are in Sanhedrin 9:4 and [/url]Sanhedrin 56a/b
"Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a)

Maimonides states "Whoever among the Nations fulfills the Seven Commandments to serve God belongs to the Righteous among the Nations, and has his share in the World to Come.".

"I call heaven and earth to bear witness, that any individual, man or woman, Jew or Gentile, freeman or slave, can have the Holy Spirit bestowed upon him. It all depends on his deeds."
(Shaare Tzedek 60a, 60b)

[url]http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=194&o=160 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud)
The Sages tell us that a non-Jew who fulfills these laws has as much reward in the World to Come as a Jew who fulfills the 613 Mitzvot. Therefore, there is no need for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism in order for him or her to enjoy a personal relationship with G-d.

OH NO! THE HATE!!!

kadafi
04-22-2005, 03:45 PM
In different places. You continually ignore that, willingly.
The laws of the noachide are in Sanhedrin 9:4 and Sanhedrin 56a/b
"Righteous people of all nations have a share in the world to come" (Sanhedrin 105a)

Maimonides states "Whoever among the Nations fulfills the Seven Commandments to serve God belongs to the Righteous among the Nations, and has his share in the World to Come.".

"I call heaven and earth to bear witness, that any individual, man or woman, Jew or Gentile, freeman or slave, can have the Holy Spirit bestowed upon him. It all depends on his deeds."
(Shaare Tzedek 60a, 60b)

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=194&o=160
The Sages tell us that a non-Jew who fulfills these laws has as much reward in the World to Come as a Jew who fulfills the 613 Mitzvot. Therefore, there is no need for a non-Jew to convert to Judaism in order for him or her to enjoy a personal relationship with G-d.

OH NO! THE HATE!!! Greetings SpaceFalcon, it's funny to note that you actually disregarded what I wrote and added your version whilst ignoring my points.

You completely ignored the article that discusses the degradation of the Gentiles. Righteous Gentiles (i.e. Noachides) are promised a share in the world to come but that share DOES NOT equal to the rewards that a Jew receives. Inquire this with your local rabbis. In fact, this can be acknowledged by a layman who is compeletly ignorant about the Judaistic teachings.

A person (i.e. Jew) who has to obey and act upon the 613 commandments will receive greater rewards in comparision with a person (Noachide) who has to obey 7 laws.

And you also ignored the contradictions regardin' the Genesis events.

I do not want to engage in a discussion where I've to answer every point while you neglect some of the points and answer the rest.

SpaceFalcon2001
05-02-2005, 12:54 PM
And you also ignored the contradictions regardin' the Genesis events.You ignored the explination, is there something else you want? Should I it write in cursive next time?

searchingsoul
08-05-2006, 12:05 AM
I like the way some muslims are committed to prayer five times a day. I love seeing pictures of them praying during hajj.

I don't like that the prayers are recitations. I like prayer to be more personal and a direct conversation with God. The muslim prayer is fine if it brings peace to the muslim. Personally, it doesn't appeal to me.

SirZubair
08-05-2006, 12:14 AM
When i USED TO BE a non-muslim, the one thing i HATED (not disliked,..disliked is Too Soft)(which made me turn into a Non-muslim) was the extremism that some Muslims display. I thought THAT was islam. That is why i left it.

But then, over the year, i read about Prophet Muhammed, I learned about islam from Traditional Sunni Scholars and learnt about the Beauty of islam.

And that is when i realised that there is no Error is islam. It is the perfect way of life. And that the problem was the Followers of the religon. Kheir, thats my story.

I know, someone out there is proberly wondering "Why are you posting here? you are a muslim!"

Well, as a Once-upon-a-time-non-muslim, i feel that it is my right to post here :brother:

nimrod
08-05-2006, 04:51 AM
Hussein

What I like about Islam is the fervor that many Muslims display in their following of the teachings they believe came from God.

What I dislike is the fervor that many Muslims display in their following of miss-guided teachings of what they believe came from God.

One group condemns suicide bombing, the other side endorses it.

Thanks
Nimrod

hongi
08-05-2006, 09:09 AM
It's hard to dislike Islam without knowing anything about it. I've been trying to find an english copy of the Quran in the library without any success. Where do you guys get yours?

I personally don't have a problem against the religion itself, but some of the followers of your religion seem...a bit extreme.

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