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let us see
01-15-2006, 05:42 PM
I am a non muslim but I do not understand why muslims INSIST on calling me a kaffir, I do believe in god im from a roman catholic background, and I am INSULTED to be called a Kaffir by muslims.:rollseyes

If I beleive in god then I am not A kaffir, Only ALLAH can judge who is a kafir.

I am not A kaffir and no muslim is allowed to call me a kaffir since I believe in god.
:offended:
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azim
01-15-2006, 05:53 PM
Hey, welcome to the forum.

I can understand why you don't like being called a Khafir, although most Muslims use it as more of a colloquial term for anyone who isn't Muslim rather than the stricter lexical meaning.

I can't speak for every muslim, but I won't call you Khafir :D. Instead I'll call you a follower of 'the book' (the term given in the Quran for Christians and Jews is 'Ahlal-kitab' or 'People of the Book', which is similar to what the early Christians called themselves - "people of the way").

If anyone Muslims still insist on calling you a Khafir, simply remind them of what the Quran calls the Christians.

In closing, a verse from the Quran: -

"you will find the nearest in love to the believers (Muslims) those who say: "We are christians." " 5:82
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*charisma*
01-15-2006, 06:01 PM
Greetings,

Kaafir is just a term used to call nonmuslims, thats it. For some reason people make it sound like its such a horrid word lol..

Reminds me of how some ppl call muslims terrorists when they are not subhanallah...

anyhoo you're right, only Allah can judge what is inside a person's heart and if that person wants to be a muslim and is choosing guidance he is not a kaffir unless he chooses and continues upon the wrong path.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!! :) btw
hope u can find your stay here beneficial and learn a lot about Islam
and do ask questions about what u dont understand so that we may clearify it for you inshallah (Allah willing) :p


Peace
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- Qatada -
01-15-2006, 06:02 PM
Kafir

Kafir signifies one who denies or rejects the truth, i.e. who disbelieves in the message of the Prophets. Since the advent of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), anyone who rejects his Message is a kafir.

http://www.soundvision.com/info/~glo...lay.asp?id=132


So if a person rejects the truth, doesn't accept islam as the true religion - their a 'rejector of faith' hence that person is a 'kafir'.


The truth involves believing in:

Allaah Almighty, the angels, the books, prophets, life after death, judgement day, qadr/destiny.
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akulion
01-15-2006, 06:08 PM
Well I just refer to people by name
not by gender or religion lol

So u wont find me saying "hey u mr kafir" lool

ill just call you "let us see"
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*charisma*
01-15-2006, 06:22 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

yea and most of us muslims do ^^
Usually kaffir is also used in general rather pointing out a specific person.

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
Reply

Believer5
01-15-2006, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by let us see
I am a non muslim but I do not understand why muslims INSIST on calling me a kaffir, I do believe in god im from a roman catholic background, and I am INSULTED to be called a Kaffir by muslims.:rollseyes

If I beleive in god then I am not A kaffir, Only ALLAH can judge who is a kafir.

I am not A kaffir and no muslim is allowed to call me a kaffir since I believe in god.
:offended:
out of interest, why are u offended by the term kaffir unless you believe what the quran says about how astray the kafir is and the punishment... if you don't believe in that, then surely it's just another word? :?

anyway, since ur a christian, u have a special status in islam because you are following revealed scriptures... (though we believe they have been altered and are abrogated by the quran)

you are from the "people of the book" - kaffir is a term more suited to those that reject belief in God... :hiding:
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Believer5
01-15-2006, 06:40 PM
I think the muslims may call you a mushrik though... which is somebody that associates partners with God / worships something other than God...
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Umar001
01-15-2006, 06:42 PM
In college my brothers told me off for calling a 'Christian' a kaffir, I didnt call him kaffir all the time, just sometimes, let me xplain why:

This boy, says he is interested about islam and wants to learn about it, we give him da'wa and he is a kinda friend of some of us. I was in the same position a year ago, a NON MUSLIM aka KAFIR who was learning with muslims, after a while I became COMPLACENT in my position, I ate with the muslims drank with the muslims took bus home with the muslims, I believed in most of the Islamic stuff, well All of it, but I did not take my shahada, IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE CALLED ME KAFIR THAT I REMEMBERED MY POSITION, And didnt become to complacent, this persistant rememberance of being a KAFFIR aka NON MUSLIM as such, in a sense reminded me and through that and other stuff I took my shahada!

NOW IF ONE IS A CHRISTIAN, HE SHOULD BE HONOURED TO BE CALLED A KAFIR BY MUSLIMS, IF A CHRISTIAN CALLS ME A KAFIR I WILL BE SO HAPPY, I WILL TELL HIM, PEEP MY NAME BROTHER IN ADAM, JESUS SLAVE OF GOD!!! A CHRISTIAN SHOULD REJOICE WHEN PEOPLE CALL HIM KAFIR, OR MAYBE ITS THAT CHRISTIAN'S FITRA COMING OUT REBELLING AGAINST BEING CALLED A KAFIR!

Here is a beautiful answer by Zakir Naik:

"Q. Why do Muslims abuse non-Muslims by calling them ‘Kafirs’?
A. 1. ‘Kafir’ means one who rejects.

‘Kafir’ is derived from the word ‘kufr’, which means to conceal or to reject. In Islamic terminology, ‘Kafir’ means one who conceals or rejects the truth of Islam and a person who rejects Islam is in English called a ‘non-Muslim'.


2. If non-Muslims are hurt - they should accept Islam.

If any non-Muslim considers the word ‘Kafir’ i.e. ‘non-Muslim’ as an abuse, he may choose to accept Islam and then we will stop referring to him as or call him a kafir i.e. a non-Muslim. A Muslim does not get hurt when being called a non-Hindu or non-Jew. In the same way a Hindu should not feel hurt when called a non-Muslim."


P.s also read on the word kafir and so on, it aparently was something that farmers were called because they covered the ground or something, I think Yusuf Estes talks on this word!

P.s.s the rememberence of me being a kafir was not the reason fortaking my shahada but a catalyst which made the process faster. just had to clear that up.

And Sorry if I sound harsh, I dont intend to hurt anyone, but it amazes me that people should be hurt by such a word.

Peace be upon yall
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Ghazi
01-15-2006, 07:22 PM
Salaam

If you aint a practising muslim then your a kafir, a lot of people think just beacuse they have a muslim name and come from a muslim family that their muslim, the diffrences between a kafir and a muslim is salaat.
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Believer5
01-15-2006, 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

If you aint a practising muslim then your a kafir, a lot of people think just beacuse they have a muslim name and come from a muslim family that their muslim, the diffrences between a kafir and a muslim is salaat.
YOU ARE SOOO WRONG!!!

you don't make takfir of those who proclaim the shahada, irresepective of whether they practise or not!! You have to be very careful how you use the word kafir.

otherwise the word bounces back on the person who said it if the person they said it on is a muslim...




sorry if i sounded harsh in my post ... it's just that it causes fitna when muslims degrade other muslims with that term...
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Ghazi
01-15-2006, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by saufia
YOU ARE SOOO WRONG!!!

you don't make takfir of those who proclaim the shahada, irresepective of whether they practise or not!! You have to be very careful how you use the word kafir.

otherwise the word bounces back on the person who said it if the person they said it on is a muslim...
Salaam

I get where you coming from sis, but what meaning has the shahada got if you aint fullfilling the 5 pillers or trying to whats that person going to say to allah on the day of judgment. For example some who claims to be a muslim but doesn't prey would you say that person is a muslim, just beacuse they utter the shahada doesn't make it enough you need to practise the salaat the fast the sawm etc.
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Umar001
01-15-2006, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

I get where you coming from sis, but what meaning has the shahada got if you aint fullfilling the 5 pillers or trying to whats that person going to say to allah on the day of judgment. For example some who claims to be a muslim but doesn't prey would you say that person is a muslim, just beacuse they utter the shahada doesn't make it enough you need to practise the salaat the fast the sawm etc.

Aight so if a person mises one prayer or a day of prayer, he is a kafir? is that what ya ment akhi, I have heard this statement from a hadeeth or something 'the difference between a muslim and a kafir is salaat' so since it was quoted I will ask when I miss a prayer, I become a kafir? if I do, does that mean I need to say shahada again?

Peace be upon yall
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Believer5
01-15-2006, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
just beacuse they utter the shahada doesn't make it enough you need to practise the salaat the fast the sawm etc.
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...ID=216&CATE=13

Read the link above.

This isn't a matter of opinion... it's what ALL muslim scholars are united on... that you don't call somebody who proclaims shahada a kafir... it's not even a disputed issue so you're all alone in what you're saying...

http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=1453

And like I said before, the word comes back on the person who said it if they turn out to be wrong...
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Believer5
01-15-2006, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Aight so if a person mises one prayer or a day of prayer, he is a kafir? is that what ya ment akhi, I have heard this statement from a hadeeth or something 'the difference between a muslim and a kafir is salaat' so since it was quoted I will ask when I miss a prayer, I become a kafir? if I do, does that mean I need to say shahada again?

Peace be upon yall
what is the definition of a kaffir?

it it somebody who missed a prayer or somebody who doesn't fast or even somebody who doesn'r practise fully?

no, the definition is somebody who rejects beleif in Allah and His Messenger!
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Ghazi
01-15-2006, 08:00 PM
Salaam

I've seem to be misunderstood, I wasn't calling a nobody specific a kafir a was talking about characteristics of a muslim compared to a kafir, for example if someone dies who claimed to be muslim all their lives but yet didn't do salaat, fast, hajj, zakah out of arrogence as we have these type of people in the world, what would you diffrence is that person to a kafir.

P.S. I AGREE CALLING SOMEONE A KARFIR IS WRONG, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CHARACTERISTICS OF PEOPLE.
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let us see
01-15-2006, 08:05 PM
Well I do not think muslims have anyright to call people who believe in god Kaffirs, only allah can judge who is the kaffir, and this muslims and non muslim included.

Also I have a problem with muslims who say they cannot non muslims as freinds, even though they are kind and treat non muslims with respect , it is RUDE not to take non muslims as freinds and helpers advisors ect.

I think this type of talking is what terroists say and is what starts wars.
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Ghazi
01-15-2006, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by let us see
Well I do not think muslims have anyright to call people who believe in god Kaffirs, only allah can judge who is the kaffir, and this muslims and non muslim included.

Also I have a problem with muslims who say they cannot non muslims as freinds, even though they are kind and treat non muslims with respect , it is RUDE not to take non muslims as freinds and helpers advisors ect.

I think this type of talking is what terroists say and is what starts wars.
Salaam

This is a verse 1 from surat MUTTAHANAH. THAT WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION.
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- Qatada -
01-15-2006, 08:26 PM
Hey.

The believers are the people who believe in:

Allaah Almighty, the angels, the books, all the prophets, life after death, judgement day, qadr/destiny

The people who reject the above - they are the kafirs, so someone who rejects faith is a kafir i.e. the person who rejects the all of the above (the text in blue) therefore - if a person rejects all the prophets, this includes Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family.) then they are a kafir.


referring to your second question, we are allowed to be friends with non muslims.

you can read more about that misconception from this link:

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#19


one verse that easily refutes that idea is:


“Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.” (Al-Mumtahinah: 8-9)


If you need more info. then please do ask.


Peace.
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Tasneem
01-15-2006, 08:50 PM
Thats true.
A kafr is one that knows about islam and then reject it
Inwardly and outwardly.
We as muslims are told not to call ppl.kafir but there are certain signs
That we are told to look for in a kafr.
Like the one i told you above

SaLaMz
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azim
01-15-2006, 08:51 PM
Salaam.

I think if someone takes offence at being called a Khafir, then you should not call them a Khafir. The Prophet (pbuh) objected to calling people by a term they disliked.

Clinically speaking, as bro Fi_sabilillah pointed out, if you reject any of the said articles of faith openly, then you are a self-admitted Khafir. However this word can have connotations and meanings which may not be intended and might be misinterpreted and thus be found offensive to another, and so I think its better to try not to use it.
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DaSangarTalib
01-15-2006, 08:57 PM
:sl:

"As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe."
The Holy Quran, 02:06 Al Baqarah

Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary: Kufr, Kafara, Kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not consistent with an earnest desire to see the truth. Where there is sch desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influence.

Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.


We must always maintain courtesy, diplomacy and a never-dying zeal to convey the message to others no matter how discouraging or useless it may seem - don't give up on a non-Muslim because most people are good people who simply need a break from the anti-Islamic propaganda around them.

The Fastest Way to Leave Islam

It is always safest to assume that a non-Muslim has been misguided, misinformed and fed lies and misconceptions about Islam and Muslims - don't jump to calling him a Kafir. Remove the name-calling from your articles and websites - wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry - name-calling, especially wrongly branding someone as 'evil', 'kafr' and 'manifestation of satan' - GHEEBAT - could entail dire consequences for us on Judgement Day.

Perhaps there is no faster way to leave Islam than by calling other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination.

About calling other Muslims "kafir," we read the following hadith: It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]

Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.

Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one!

Guiding a Non-Muslim to Islam only possible by the Grace of God. Our job is to help others understand Islam - that is our basic duty. And only then inshaAllah, will non-Muslims move in the direction of becoming one of us. We must remain positive, open-minded and generous in our efforts to convey the true message.

You cannot encourage a non-Muslim to be understanding and open-minded if you yourself are hot-tempered and hurling accusations at him/her. No non-Muslim is going to respect you and it will certainly reflect badly on Islam if a Muslim, a representative of Islam, is narrow-minded.

I pray to Allah that we develop patience and sincerity in our efforts to bring about more tolerance in this world. Remember....every human being, regardless of whether he/she is born to Muslim or Non-Muslim parents, is born innocent and pure...it is society that influences him/her to stray from Islam and just as a person can stray, he/she can revert back and YOU can help this process.

We have a very important and sensitive role to play. We are the trusted Ummah of the Rasool (saw), a servant of God...it has been made our duty and our obligation to pass on the pure, unadulterated truth - make honest and full use of this honourable task.

:w:
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Believer5
01-15-2006, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
P.S. I AGREE CALLING SOMEONE A KARFIR IS WRONG, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE CHARACTERISTICS OF PEOPLE.
:w:

inshAllah we are agreed then because you first wrote "If you aint a practising muslim then your a kafir " and the "the diffrences between a kafir and a muslim is salaat"

someone dies who claimed to be muslim all their lives but yet didn't do salaat, fast, hajj, zakah out of arrogence as we have these type of people in the world, what would you diffrence is that person to a kafir.
if they "claim to be a muslim" then they are muslim!!!! nobody can call them otherwise except Allah who knows what's in their hearts...

I would call the person you describe a sinning believer...

if you call the person ^ a kaffir, then you risk the word returning on yourself, who would take such a risk?
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oneumah
01-15-2006, 10:28 PM
salam.
let me try this, its not mulimeens place to lebal others. and its not that the person who missed salat does not belief one allah and prophet mohamed(pbh) no longer, they just made a big sin. i beleif there is a proper way of dealing with tarakusalat in the islamic shareah(rules and regualtions).
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Ra`eesah
01-15-2006, 11:51 PM
Peace be to those who follow the guidance, and may the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon His final Prophet Muhammad, and to proceed..

The Arabic word known as "Kafir" is not a racist comment nor is it a slander. The word "KAFIR" is used loosely and most of the time misunderstood.


looking at the word "KAFIR" we see that it derives from the arabic root word KAFARA meaning "denier" or "concealer."

According to the arabic lexicon a Farmer would be called a "Kafir" because he plants the seeds and "Covers" them with soil.

In Quran this term has also been used for all those who hide things thou they are knowing its truthfulness. Any one who will not act according to the laws of Almighty they commit kufr.

So the kafir denies the existence of Reality and covers over the truth So its not a "racist remark" its just that the term "Kafir" is used to describe those who have "Disbelieved" in the message of Islam (i.e. the prophethood of Muhammad, the Qur'an being God's book and the Oneness of Allah). So I ask you do you believe that Allah is the One true God, and that Muhammad is His final Messenger and Prophet? Do you believe that the Qur'an is the flawless book revealed by Allah the Almighty Lord of the Worlds to His final Prophet Muhammad, through the Angel Gabriel?



If you answer is no to all or any one of these questions then you have "Kaffired in Islam", you are "rejecting" "denying" " concealing" Or, in more understandable transliteration, "You are a Kafir" If you are offended in being called that, I am offended by your Kufur (disbelief)

And for those who are saying, you can not call the Christians KUFAR.

Allaah says they are Kufar, Allaah says -

“Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allaah is the third of the three (in a Trinity).” But there is no Ilaah (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Ilaah (God —Allâh). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall on the disbelievers among them” [al-Maa’idah 5:73]

So who says trinity? The Christians they believe this, and Allaah is saying They have Disbelieved (KAFARA).

another ayah Allaah says:

“Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allaah is the Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary)…” [al-Maa’idah 5:17]

So if a Muslim doubts that the Christians are not kufar, then he himself is a Kafir. Why is he a Kafir? Because Allaah is calling them Kufar and he is not accepting what Allaah is saying.

For more Information please visit
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=en...&QR=6688&dgn=4
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Umar001
01-16-2006, 12:02 AM
Well sister I dont think All Christians are Kafirs, because sects like Jehova's Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity nor do they say Jesus is Allah.

if they are kafirs then it may be because they reject the other things, but if the two above remarks are the only things which make Christians kafirs then the Jws are not kafirs.
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Nawal89
01-16-2006, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by saufia
:w:





if they "claim to be a muslim" then they are muslim!!!! nobody can call them otherwise except Allah who knows what's in their hearts...

Sis you cant just claim to be muslim and not do anything about it. Faith is speaking, then action. And a person who leaves off his salat IS kafir, as it is clear in the hadeeth. You cant argue against that. If a person who "claims" that he is muslim, and then does actions that are clearly kufr, according to the shari'ah, then it is no harm in saying that he is kafir. For example you see plenty muslims saying that they believe in Allah and his messenger peace be upon him but the shari'ah is only for a certain time, or it is out dated, or old fashioned so we dont have to use it,AND HE BELIEVES IN IT,then NO. you cannot call that person a muslim any longer, he is a KAFIR. Of course you dont go up to his face and say "hey you kafir," but you explain to them in a good way that it's an act of kufr, and it takes you out of islam.
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afriend
01-16-2006, 12:09 AM
Well it looks like all the above posts shud explain everything....but if u feel that u don't want to be termed as kaafir, then by Allah's grace I shall not call you a kaafir....Allah willing.....
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Ra`eesah
01-16-2006, 12:37 AM
assalamu'alaykum

Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
Well sister I dont think All Christians are Kafirs, because sects like Jehova's Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity nor do they say Jesus is Allah.

if they are kafirs then it may be because they reject the other things, but if the two above remarks are the only things which make Christians kafirs then the Jws are not kafirs.

Please take the time out to read the Quran and understand it. And bring your proof when you are making points regarding issues such as these.

The Jews are also Kufar and Allaah says so in the Quran.


And the Jews say: ‘Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allaah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allaah. That is their saying with their mouths, resembling the saying of those who disbelieved aforetime. Allaah’s Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth! … They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allaah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allaah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Tauraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] to worship none but One Ilaah (God — Allaah) Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).” [al-Tawbah 9:30-31].
It was reported from Abu Hurayrag that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One is Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, not one of this nation, Jew or Christian, will hear of me and will die without having believed in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the dwellers of Hell fire.”
(Narrated by Muslim, 153)

Whoever says that the Jews are not kaafirs is disbelieving in the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meanings):

And their hearts absorbed (the worship of) the calf because of their disbelief” [al-Baqarah 2:93]

“Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: “We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,” and “Hear and let you (O Muhammad) hear nothing.” And Raa‘ina [in Arabic it means “Be careful, listen to us, and we listen to you”, whereas in Hebrew, it means “an insult”] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islâm). And if only they had said: “We hear and obey”, and “Do make us understand,” it would have been better for them, and more proper; but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief…” [al-Nisa’ 4:46]
“Because of their breaking the covenant, and of their rejecting the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allaah, and of their killing the Prophets unjustly, and of their saying: “Our hearts are wrapped (with coverings, i.e. we do not understand what the Messengers say)” — nay, Allaah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little. And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam (Mary) a grave false charge (that she has committed illegal sexual intercourse); And because of their saying (in boast), “We killed Messiah ‘Eesaa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allaah,” — but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them the resemblance of ‘Eesaa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)]…” [al-Nisa’ 4:155-157]

I gave the link in my post prior please take the time and read it before you post again. and for the record Jehova's Witnesses are Kufar.
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sapphire
01-16-2006, 02:15 AM
they are both different languages.........personally i wudnt use the word kaffir.......n people have different views regarding it...........

btw welcome to the forum.........
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sargon
01-16-2006, 02:37 AM
I agree about not judging non-muslims. You never know what's deep inside a person, they could eventually become muslim and be a better one than you :hiding:
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Believer5
01-16-2006, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
Sis you cant just claim to be muslim and not do anything about it. Faith is speaking, then action. And a person who leaves off his salat IS kafir, as it is clear in the hadeeth. You cant argue against that. If a person who "claims" that he is muslim, and then does actions that are clearly kufr, according to the shari'ah, then it is no harm in saying that he is kafir. For example you see plenty muslims saying that they believe in Allah and his messenger peace be upon him but the shari'ah is only for a certain time, or it is out dated, or old fashioned so we dont have to use it,AND HE BELIEVES IN IT,then NO. you cannot call that person a muslim any longer, he is a KAFIR. Of course you dont go up to his face and say "hey you kafir," but you explain to them in a good way that it's an act of kufr, and it takes you out of islam.
NAWAL89 YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!
BRING ME A SINGLE FATWA FROM A SCHOLAR THAT AGREES WITH YOU!!!

AND DON'T SPEAK WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE... I'VE ALREADY GIVEN THE LINKS TO SHOW THAT YOU DO NOT MAKE TAKFIR OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO PROCLAIM THE SHAHADA...

it was a characteristic of the khwarij to make takfir of muslims so they could then kill them...

e.g. if :sister: is married to :brother: , and then :brother: stops reading salat, will divorce become fard on :sister: ?????? which is what would be the case if he left islam.... brothers out there who don't pray 5x but the wives do, so tell me are the sisters commiting adultery by staying with the guys...

also apostasy is given death penalty... so tell me how many people you think the islamic state should kill... how many millions??

lol you can't go upto the muslim to his face so you would just pretend that he's a muslim whilst thinking bad of him in ur heart... how sincere!!

and the hadith says that difference between the kaffirs and believers is salat, but it doesn't say "a person who leaves off his salat IS kafir" so why are you saying that??? the scholars haven't intepreted the hadith that way so why are you???
Reply

ricardo
01-16-2006, 11:54 AM
salaam.we should be sensitive and also know that the word kafir also has a derogatory meaning if relating to south african history so i don't know if the brother hails from the motherland.it is the term the boers named all the people of color in south africa especially reserved for blacks.the same way the word ------ or negro was used
Reply

Tilmeez
01-16-2006, 12:51 PM
All prophets came on Islam. and every one who beleives in Islam is Muslim and all others are Kaffirs (non - belivers). With the arrival of Muhammmad SAW all previous versions of Islam were canceled and to be muslim now every one has to beleive in Islam brought by Muhammad SAW or otherwise one will be considered as non beliver or Kaffir.
I am sorry dear friend for someone hurt u still they seem to be OK as per the rule stated here!! I would like u to participate here and don't take it to ur heart.
Soon u will be feeling the urge to believe what Muhammad SAW has brought.

Allah knows the best ..
Tilmeez
Reply

Nawal89
01-16-2006, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by saufia
NAWAL89 YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!
BRING ME A SINGLE FATWA FROM A SCHOLAR THAT AGREES WITH YOU!!!

AND DON'T SPEAK WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE... I'VE ALREADY GIVEN THE LINKS TO SHOW THAT YOU DO NOT MAKE TAKFIR OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS WHO PROCLAIM THE SHAHADA...

it was a characteristic of the khwarij to make takfir of muslims so they could then kill them...

e.g. if :sister: is married to :brother: , and then :brother: stops reading salat, will divorce become fard on :sister: ?????? which is what would be the case if he left islam.... brothers out there who don't pray 5x but the wives do, so tell me are the sisters commiting adultery by staying with the guys...

also apostasy is given death penalty... so tell me how many people you think the islamic state should kill... how many millions??

lol you can't go upto the muslim to his face so you would just pretend that he's a muslim whilst thinking bad of him in ur heart... how sincere!!

and the hadith says that difference between the kaffirs and believers is salat, but it doesn't say "a person who leaves off his salat IS kafir" so why are you saying that??? the scholars haven't intepreted the hadith that way so why are you???

Sis i am not speaking from the top of my head. I wouldnt ever do that subhanallh. Leaving of the salat is a act of kufr. And i mentioned in my post that you dont go and tell them straight in thier face that they are kafir, but you explain to them. If they insist that they are not doing anything wrong, of if you give them the daleel then they reject it, saying it doest APPLY to them, or if they reject the Qur'an, even though they say they are muslim, do you actually BELEIVE that this person is muslim?

And that hadeeth is CLEAR, " the difference between them (the non believers) and us ( muslims) is salah, So whoever LEAVES it then he is a disbleiever."

And yes you dont make takfir of those who proclaim the shahada, but if they do an act that obviously takes them out of islam, without seeing anything wrong with it, and insist upon doing it, then in this condition sis, it doesnt apply. Simply because the person is open about it.
Reply

Nawal89
01-16-2006, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by let us see
I am a non muslim but I do not understand why muslims INSIST on calling me a kaffir, I do believe in god im from a roman catholic background, and I am INSULTED to be called a Kaffir by muslims.:rollseyes

If I beleive in god then I am not A kaffir, Only ALLAH can judge who is a kafir.

I am not A kaffir and no muslim is allowed to call me a kaffir since I believe in god.
:offended:

welcome to the forum
You dont have to be insulted if a muslim calls you kafir. In islam there's no in between. Allah swt said that when eh created us he made us either "Muslim" or "kafir" . If you accept Islam then you are muslim. If not you are kafir. Simple as that.
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Halima
01-16-2006, 04:10 PM
:sl:

Threads merged.

:w:
Reply

Believer5
01-16-2006, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
Sis i am not speaking from the top of my head. I wouldnt ever do that subhanallh. Leaving of the salat is a act of kufr. And i mentioned in my post that you dont go and tell them straight in thier face that they are kafir, but you explain to them. If they insist that they are not doing anything wrong, of if you give them the daleel then they reject it, saying it doest APPLY to them, or if they reject the Qur'an, even though they say they are muslim, do you actually BELEIVE that this person is muslim?

And that hadeeth is CLEAR, " the difference between them (the non believers) and us ( muslims) is salah, So whoever LEAVES it then he is a disbleiever."

And yes you dont make takfir of those who proclaim the shahada, but if they do an act that obviously takes them out of islam, without seeing anything wrong with it, and insist upon doing it, then in this condition sis, it doesnt apply. Simply because the person is open about it.
Sorry if i accused you in my last post or was rude... :hiding:

I think we'll just agree to disagree... altho i'm glad you mention "without seeing anything wrong with it, and insist upon doing it" as it seems better at least...

I found a commentary on the hadith, which supports your view as well as mine:

Jabir (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Between a man and disbelief and paganism is the abandonment of Salat (prayer).''
[Muslim].

Commentary: He who will be having the quality of Islam and will be particular in performing Salat regularly, will raise a wall between himself and Kufr. He who does not perform Salat after coming to the fold of Islam, does not have a frontier which separates him from infidelity. Leaving Salat is like demolishing the wall that separates Islam from Kufr. Thus, we learn from this Hadith that leaving Salat is Kufr. Some `Ulama' are of the opinion that this injunction is for one who believes leaving Salat is permissible whereas the one who leaves it because of slackness is not Kafir. Some scholars, however, think that if such a person does not repent, he is liable to Hadd, i.e., death punishment. There are other `Ulama' who think that rather than death punishment such a person should be subjected to corporal punishment till he starts offering Salat. This Hadith makes the importance of Salat in Islam abundantly clear.
Reply

sargon
01-17-2006, 06:35 AM
I Listened to a lecture recently about kufr, and the guy said it was a disease of the heart.

Just wanted to add that maybe when a Muslim isn't being good it's because he has a disease and he may need help and guidance. To call him a Kaffir might be wrong because he is Muslim but has a disease. To call people of the book the same is kind of like labeling them as such, as if they intentionally rebel and reject.

I have my opinion which is most likely wrong because I haven't studied alot so I'll just stop now :)
Reply

let us see
01-17-2006, 04:06 PM
Well time to come clean.

Asalaam Alykum brothers n sisters

The words I posted were from A kaffir who objected to me using this name on non muslims, so I was showing this person different views from muslims regards the term kaffir.
playing devils advocate if you like.

anyway I am a muslim elhamdolelah and I lost my pass for my old ID eyes_of_mine, which I will try to get back somehow.

Well it was most interesting reading the replys, I was abit suprised to read some of you saying you would not use this word if kaffirs found it offensive, since when do we let non believers dictate what arabic words mean and when we can and cannot use them. (just a thought there)

Of course calling a mulsim a kaffir is something we should not do, best to leave that to the scholors to slap a fatawa on them.

thankyou everyone !
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Muezzin
01-17-2006, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
Well I just refer to people by name
not by gender or religion lol

So u wont find me saying "hey u mr kafir" lool
If you had a strong Arab accent, and the guy you were talking to was named 'Keifer', you might say the 'k' word by mistake :p
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afriend
01-17-2006, 09:38 PM
LOL LOL LOL LOL

*Laughing to death*

Bro....u just gotta hav a commedy section to this forum....
Reply

Al-Zaara
04-03-2006, 04:06 PM
Be Careful who you call a Kafir

by Fareena Alam

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"As to those who reject Faith, It is the same to them Whether thou warn them Or do not warn them; They will not believe." The Holy Quran, 02:06 Al Baqarah



Abdullah Yusuf Ali's commentary: Kufr, Kafara, Kafir, and derivative forms of the word, imply a deliberate rejection of Faith as opposed to a mistaken idea of Allah or faith, which is not consistent with an earnest desire to see the truth. Where there is sch desire, the Grace and Mercy of Allah gives guidance. But that guidance is not efficacious when it is deliberately rejected, and the possibility of rejection follows from the grant of free will. The consequence of the rejection is that spiritual faculties become dead or impervious to better influence.



Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.


We must always maintain courtesy, diplomacy and a never-dying zeal to convey the message to others no matter how discouraging or useless it may seem - don't give up on a non-Muslim because most people are good people who simply need a break from the anti-Islamic propaganda around them.



The Fastest Way to Leave Islam


It is always safest to assume that a non-Muslim has been misguided, misinformed and fed lies and misconceptions about Islam and Muslims - don't jump to calling him a Kafir. Remove the name-calling from your articles and websites - wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry - name-calling, especially wrongly branding someone as 'evil', 'kafr' and 'manifestation of satan' - GHEEBAT - could entail dire consequences for us on Judgement Day.

Perhaps there is no faster way to leave Islam than by calling other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination.

About calling other Muslims "kafir," we read the following hadith: It is reported on the authority of Ibn `Umar that the Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) said: Any person who calls his brother: O Unbeliever! (then the truth of this label) would return to one of them. If it is true, (then it is) as he asserted, (but if it is not true), then it returns to him (and thus the person who made the accusation is an Unbeliever). [Muslim]



Therefore, if you call other Muslims "kafir" or "mushrik" without discrimination, you could find that you have left Islam, according to the words of the Prophet (s.a.w.), in less than a second.


Waste no time debating what a good Muslim should be. Be one!


Guiding a Non-Muslim to Islam only possible by the Grace of God. Our job is to help others understand Islam - that is our basic duty. And only then inshaAllah, will non-Muslims move in the direction of becoming one of us. We must remain positive, open-minded and generous in our efforts to convey the true message.



You cannot encourage a non-Muslim to be understanding and open-minded if you yourself are hot-tempered and hurling accusations at him/her. No non-Muslim is going to respect you and it will certainly reflect badly on Islam if a Muslim, a representative of Islam, is narrow-minded.



I pray to Allah that we develop patience and sincerity in our efforts to bring about more tolerance in this world. Remember....every human being, regardless of whether he/she is born to Muslim or Non-Muslim parents, is born innocent and pure...it is society that influences him/her to stray from Islam and just as a person can stray, he/she can revert back and YOU can help this process.



We have a very important and sensitive role to play. We are the trusted Ummah of the Rasool (saw), a servant of God...it has been made our duty and our obligation to pass on the pure, unadulterated truth - make honest and full use of this honourable task.
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Guli7
04-05-2006, 10:10 PM
good message! Some people are so used to name calling, they don't think about their actions. Thanks for posting.
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Al-Zaara
04-06-2006, 03:25 PM
:sl:

Yes, I completely agree with you, sister.
People should be aware of this:

Be careful who you call Kafir because only Allah knows who is truly a rejector and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to "sentence" a person to the Hellfire.

:w:
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ummnasr
04-08-2006, 01:47 AM
:sl:
Excellent post sis
This is something we always hear, but we are living in a kafir country and those people that don't want to show manners to these people should find a non-kafir country to live in, only Allah knows maybe these "kafirs" will be guided to the haq, like I was, its funny because I was one a "kafir" too :sister:
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Al-Zaara
04-08-2006, 08:42 AM
:sl:

Subhanallah! Wonderful to hear that you found the path to Islam, sister. :happy: Mashallah! May Allah (swt) have mercy on you and may He also forgive your past sins. Amiin. :)

:w:
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ummnasr
04-08-2006, 09:55 AM
Inshaa allah, Jazkkalah khair
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Slave of Rehman
04-08-2006, 10:46 AM
Jazakallah sister .
Mashalalh very esefull Topic regarding calling Kafir to ur own Muslim Brother.
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Ghazi
04-08-2006, 10:48 AM
Salaam

I agree calling other muslims kafirs is wrong but I don't see nothing calling a known non-muslim a kafir.
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ummnasr
04-09-2006, 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam

I agree calling other muslims kafirs is wrong but I don't see nothing calling a known non-muslim a kafir.
:sl: I agree to a point, to those Kafirs that are opressing the muslims go ahead call them what you like, i also have a few other words id love to call them, but ill keep that to myself, but we should not have a negative attitude to everyday people we are living in a western country, we should do so peacefuly , we should be giving these people dawah, only allah knows but maybe allah SWT has decreed these people to become muslim in the future :sl:
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Malaikah
04-09-2006, 07:26 AM
:sl:

the way i understand the issue is this: the word kafir implies DISBELIEF, and that the person is doomed to hell fire, theres no way they can become muslim. you say that you dont see whats wrong with calling non-muslims kafirs, well a lot of the non-muslims out there dont even have a clue about what islam really is.. so how are you to say they disbelieve, and that they are doomed to an eternity in hell fire? perhaps if they leanr about islam, about what it really is then they will recognise the truth and become muslim and hopefully be able to enter paradise inshaallah... but if they study islam in its true form and reject, then they become kafirun.

so its best not to use the word on anyone i think.

hope that makes sense :)

:w:
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Ghazi
04-09-2006, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

the way i understand the issue is this: the word kafir implies DISBELIEF, and that the person is doomed to hell fire, theres no way they can become muslim. you say that you dont see whats wrong with calling non-muslims kafirs, well a lot of the non-muslims out there dont even have a clue about what islam really is.. so how are you to say they disbelieve, and that they are doomed to an eternity in hell fire? perhaps if they leanr about islam, about what it really is then they will recognise the truth and become muslim and hopefully be able to enter paradise inshaallah... but if they study islam in its true form and reject, then they become kafirun.

so its best not to use the word on anyone i think.

hope that makes sense :)

:w:
Salaam

Kafir=disbeliever, and kafirs ain't doomed to hell fire, some of the sahaba were former kafirs, then they accepted islam. So anyone who doesn't believe in allah and his messenger is a kafir.
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ummnasr
04-10-2006, 03:57 AM
:sl: cheese , I agree, my mum always said its not nice to call anyone nasty words ( but she's a kafir) but i was once to a kafiir subhanallah, i hope you don't think im rude if i asked you wher you thought of a name like cheese from, i like cheese too but be careful rumour is theres a mouse running around the forums (just kidding sis ):sl: ;D ;D ;D
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Slave of Rehman
04-10-2006, 10:46 AM
lol. jazakallah
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hinda
04-10-2006, 10:23 PM
eXCELENT POST SIS
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seek.learn
04-11-2006, 05:33 AM
Salaam o alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

JazakAllahu Khairun sister!

This is something, among so many other things, that we have to remember.

Excellent post.

May Allah guide us and forgive us. Aameen.

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
Reply

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