I assume if you accept as truth certain verses from the gospels, you also accept as truth all verses of the gospels? Yes or No?
Never assume anything. Lol Who said I accepted those as truth? I’m showing you the inaccuracies in your beliefs from your own bible. Why would I show you from the Qur’an when you don’t believe the Qur’an is from God? There is NO proof this event ever took place and as a matter of fact, if you researched, you will find more evidence suggesting it never happened at all.
Concerning Jesus death on the cross:
As I said the disciples of Jesus were not eye-witnesses or ear-witnesses to the actual events of the previous three days, as attested to by Mark who says that at the most critical point in the life of Jesus: "they all forsook him and fled." (Mark 14:50).
All the knowledge of the disciples regarding their Master was from hearsay. They had heard that their master was hanged on the cross; they had heard that he had given up the ghost; they had heard that he was dead and buried for three days. After hearing all that they would have every reason to believe He was dead, so it explains why they were scared to death when they saw Him in the upper room. They thought they were looking at a ghost!
Concerning the death of Jesus: John 19:32-34
When John says that the soldiers "saw" He was dead, he means that they assumed. Did they use a stethoscope to verify death? Did anyone touch his body or feel his pulse before making the decision that "he was dead already"?
So, as per the ways of crucifixion in those days….the legs of the other 2 men were broken, but amazingly, the legs of Jesus were not. They ASSUMED He was dead, but weren’t absolutely convinced, because what did they do next? They stabbed Him with a sword. According to the Encyclopedia Biblica, under article "cross," column 960, that "Jesus was alive when the spear was thrust". But why the "Water and the Blood"? Dr. W.B. Primrose, a Senior Anaesthetist of the Glasgow Royal Infirmary, gave his expert opinion: In the "Thinkers Digest", London, Winter 1949 issue, he said that "THE WATER WAS A RESULT OF THE NERVOUS UPSET OF THE BLOOD VESSELS LOCALLY DUE TO THE OVER-STIMULATING EFFECT OF THE SCOURGING BY STAVES". This may be an extreme case, but so was his sweating, like "great drops of blood, falling down to the ground", when Jesus was in agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. Medical authorities also confirm the latter phenomenon. (quoted from Ahmed Deedat)
Which ones of these verses do I believe?? LOL Not a one. :p
Mark 9:9 (you used Mat. 17:8, but I was researching Mark so used his verse. Both are the same though, I’m sure you won’t deny that. lol ) As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, "Don't tell anyone about the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead."
Luk 18:31 Luk 18:32 Luk 18:33 Joh 12:32 Joh 12:33
Surely you will agree that you are told in your bible that Jesus “spoke not to them (meaning the public) without a parable; but he explained everything secretly to his own disciples” (Mark 4:34)
This is very clear. It says He explains everything clearly to His disciples so they will understand. Here are the verses that followed:
“And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean” (Mark 9:10, NKJV). “So they kept it to themselves, but they often asked each other what he meant by “rising from the dead” (Mark 9:10, NLT).
“And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken” (Luke 18:34, NKJV). “But they didn’t understand a thing he said. Its significance was hidden from them, and they failed to grasp what he was talking about” (Luke 18:34, NLT).
“But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him” (Mark 9-32, NKJV).
Why do you suppose the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus was talking about….when, according to your beliefs, THIS is your salvation!! I’m sure they were thinking exactly like I’ve been trying to tell you as well as others here. What kind of Messiah is this, this God (as you would say), that could be killed. So, they were totally perplexed. Yet, again, Christians of today are claiming they know better than these men who supposedly knew Jesus and were taught by Jesus??
Mar 8:31 Then Jesus began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, be killed, and rise after three days.
Mar 8:32 He was openly talking about this. So Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him.
Did Jesus never talk about it?
With regards to verse 8:31…These are not the words of Jesus…this is a story teller’s version of events. Would you want me to believe stories from someone 80 – 100 years after your death, or would you prefer I were able to read your own words recorded by trusted sources? I’m sure you can understand my point here. :)
18:32 Just curious as to why you didn’t include verse 18:33 which finishes off this verse?? In this verse Jesus calls Peter Satan and tells him he is speaking of things that were created of man and not of God.
After the “resurrection”.
There is a context to this verse and it’s found in vs. 37: “But they were startled and terrified and thought they were seeing a ghost.” Jesus had risen from the dead, something no one believed would happen. So when they saw Him, resurrection from the dead was the last thing in their minds. He had to be some ghost. Jesus was pointing out that he was back the way He had left them.
Exactly my point, POBook. He was not resurrected, He was very much alive. You can’t have it both ways.
“A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:39)
'neither shall they die any more' (Luke 20:36) meaning that the resurrected persons will be Immortalised. Which means they will be like the angels. No food, no drink, etc. You cannot die twice because that would mean there is a contradiction in the bible: 'ordained unto all men is to die ONCE, then the resurrection' (Heb 9:27).
So, if Jesus was raised immortal, there is not need for him to eat or drink or have anything to sustain life. So, through His own words in your bible, He was very much a physical body….not spiritual which means, He didn’t die.
How do you see this as self-defense?
According to the verse I quoted from your own bible Here is one verse of the bible: "to the slaughter like a lamb, like a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth" - (Isaiah 53:7)., Jesus, never opened His mouth to say anything. He just tottled off to wherever He was led.
John 18:20-23 contradicts that. He most certainly did open His mouth in His defence. He tells them plain and simple, I have always spoken openly and taught in the synagogue and the temples where the jews gather. I didn’t say anything in secret. If you have a witness to say different bring him, but if you don’t, why are you doing this to me?”
You can call it whatever you want, but to me, when a man is on trial and he says that, he’s trying to defend himself.
What’s your understanding of this verse: “If you really knew me (Jesus), you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and you have seen Him” (John 14:7)? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? “’The Father and I are one.’
John:14:7….First He is referring to the message God sent him to give. Secondly, by John saying that “you have seen Him” contradicts the bible. John 1:18 – No man hath seen God at any time. Also 1 Timothy 6:16 and Exodus 33:20 which says “And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face; for there shall no man see me, and live.”
If you are to believe that Jesus was, literally in the Father and vice versa, then you must also believe the disciples were all Gods too. John 17:20-22 – "That they all may be ONE as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be ONE in us…I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in ONE."
It meant nothing more than a common purpose…not essence.
Jews answered, ‘but for blasphemy, because You--being a man--make Yourself God.’”
Based on your beliefs and understanding, if you were with these Jews during this time, do you not think you would have joined them in picking up rocks to stone Jesus Christ? These men who wanted to stone Jesus to death believed Him to be exactly who you believe Him to be—a great prophet who did many good works. But Jesus made Himself to be GOD. Would you not seek to stone Him to death as well?
Jesus, never made himself out to be God. Quite the opposite. Christians see his words as the way to salvation, the Jews at the time saw it as blasphemous. The Jews wanted to cause trouble and were looking for it. John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? He is quoting from Psalm, 82:6: I have said, Ye are gods: and all of you are the children of the most High.” So, He’s saying, If God called them gods, and the prophets of God were called gods, and if good men, holy men were also called gods in your own books why are you telling me I am any different when I refer to myself as a son of God.
He made no claim for Himself at all, just as the prophets before him didn’t.
Again, thanks for your continuing dialogue. Please know that I am not trying to convert you to Christianity. I want to respect your choice to be a Muslim and I want to know and understand your logic and way of thinking.
You are more than welcome. I don’t worry about someone trying to convert me, not to worry. :) I studied far too long to know I could never go back to Christianity. I never speak with someone with the motive to revert them. Education breeds tolerance and if you can have a better understanding of Islam, then Alhamdulillah for that. It’s important we all learn to, at the very least, tolerate each other and accept our differences. What amazes me so much between Christianity and Islam are not the differences, but the similarities. As a good brother once told me, “that’s because we are fed from the same spring.” (Meaning the same God.)