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POBook
01-18-2006, 05:46 PM
Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation; if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety; if any behavior or approach to life that did not conform to the Sriptures was considered by Allah to be a divergence from the Truth...why do Muslims believe the Scriptures have been corrupted? It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran. If these Scriptures are today what they were when first written; if Allah is guarding them in safety; if Allah considers these scriptures to be the truth, how can these Scriptures have been corrupted?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-18-2006, 06:09 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation
The verse says no such thing. Read it carefully. It says that the Qur'an confirms those revelations that came before it i.e. the original Tawrat revealed to Moses and the Injeel revealed to Jesus.

Christians often try to use these verses in an attempt to support their Bible, but the fact is that there is no basis in the Qur'an for such a view. Read this interesting dialogue:
http://voiceforislam.com/FarmersMarket.html

if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety
The nations who recieved the Tawrat and the Injeel were entrusted by God with the task of its preservation. But the final message from God, the Qur'an, was entrusted to Muslims with the task of its PROPAGATION to all the people of the world, and this time the task of its preservation was taken by God.
It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran.
Is it?

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-18-2006, 06:21 PM
Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

It's good to talk with you again.

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."
"The verse says no such thing. Read it carefully. It says that the Qur'an confirms those revelations that came before it i.e. the original Tawrat revealed to Moses and the Injeel revealed to Jesus."
I'm just interested to know why the "Scripture in truth" is said by Allah to have been sent--a past tense form of speech. If this was in reference to the Qu'ran, would it not have said, "To thee we are sending the Scripture in truth..."?

Sincerely
Reply

POBook
01-18-2006, 06:41 PM
Another thought:

Al-Maeda 47 (Sura 5:47)
"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."
Has Allah revealed truth in the Gospel?
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Umar001
01-18-2006, 07:43 PM
Just wondering

'Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:8 Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century)'

Now, 16th century, is that before or after the last prophet, peace be upon him?

source
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-18-2006, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
I'm just interested to know why the "Scripture in truth" is said by Allah to have been sent--a past tense form of speech. If this was in reference to the Qu'ran, would it not have said, "To thee we are sending the Scripture in truth..."?
The arabic word is anzalnâ which is not exactly like the past tense to which you are referring. This word is used manytimes to refer to the Qur'an, such as the following example:
12:2 We have sent it down (anzalnâ) as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

20:113 Thus have We sent this down (anzalnâ), an arabic Qur'an, and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).


Thus when the Qur'an says, "We have sent/revealed (anzalnâ) to thee" it is well understood that this is referring to the Qur'an being revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I forgot to also point out that the translation you have used for verse 5:48 is not very exact. Where it says, "and guarding it in safety" the actual wording from arabic would be "and it is a muhaymin over them (i.e. previous scriptures)". Muhaymin means that it is the control, the final authority, the criterion by which we know what is true and what is false.

Regarding verse 47, yes the original Injeel (not the four gospels of the new Testament) revealed to Prophet Jesus contained the truth.

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-19-2006, 07:47 AM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your reply.

"Regarding verse 47, yes the original Injeel (not the four gospels of the new Testament) revealed to Prophet Jesus contained the truth."
What I would like to know, is what was this original Injeel? Was this Injeel intact during Muhammad's time? Did Muhammad have access to this Injeel? Where is this Injeel today?:?

Regards,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-19-2006, 06:03 PM
No the Injeel was not intact during Muhammad's time, it was the revelation preached by Prophet Jesus. Dr. Ali Ataie has authored a whole book on the subject:
The Gospel of Jesus

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-23-2006, 07:26 AM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

"No the Injeel was not intact during Muhammad's time, it was the revelation preached by Prophet Jesus."
Are you saying it was the revelation preached by the "Prophet Jesus" that was in tact during Mohammad's time? If so, what is this revelation today? Where can I read it:? ?

Sincerely,
Reply

mansio
01-23-2006, 01:37 PM
Dr. Ali Ataie is "very offended" by the attempt of Arab Christians to plagiarize the Quran under the name "The true Furqan".

He does exactly the same and writes a fake Gospel under the name "The true Gospel".
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-23-2006, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Are you saying it was the revelation preached by the "Prophet Jesus" that was in tact during Mohammad's time?
No, I said that it was NOT intact during the time of the Prophet Muhammad. Some remnants of Jesus's original message may be found in the four gospels but there is no way of knowing what is true or not unless we turn to God's final revelation, the Qur'an, a criterion in distinguishing the truth from the falsehood.

Originally Posted by mansio
Dr. Ali Ataie is "very offended" by the attempt of Arab Christians to plagiarize the Quran under the name "The true Furqan".

He does exactly the same and writes a fake Gospel under the name "The true Gospel".
Explanation of this is given in the introduction to his book.
Reply

POBook
01-23-2006, 06:46 PM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your reply. Three questions:

  1. Can you give me some examples of what is considered to still be true in the gospels?
  2. How much of the Torah is considered to be true and can you give me a couple of examples?
  3. When Muhammad talks about the “people of the Book,” to whom is he exactly referring?


Sincerely,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-23-2006, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Can you give me some examples of what is considered to still be true in the gospels?
Examples would include all teachings that are in agreement with the Qur'an, such as there being only one God (Mark 12:29).

How much of the Torah is considered to be true and can you give me a couple of examples?
The Torah is true where it agrees with the Qur'an. eg. Isaiah 45:5.

When Muhammad talks about the “people of the Book,” to whom is he exactly referring?
Nations who recieved a revelation, generally Jews and Christians.

Regards
Reply

mansio
01-24-2006, 09:24 AM
The People of the Book are very precisely listed by the Quran as the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians and the Majûs (Zoroastrians) (22:17).
Reply

Abu Zakariya
01-24-2006, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by mansio
The People of the Book are very precisely listed by the Quran as the Jews, the Christians, the Sabians and the Majûs (Zoroastrians) (22:17).
Precisely, mansio?

Here's the verse:

Verily, those who believe (in Allâh and in His Messenger Muhammad SAW), and those who are Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians, and those who worship others besides Allâh, truly, Allâh will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Verily! Allâh is Witness over all things. (Al-Hajj 22:17)

The term "People of the Book" isn't even mentioned here.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-24-2006, 05:55 PM
And the verse also mentions mushrikeen (polytheists) who are clearly not from the people of the book.
:w:
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mansio
01-24-2006, 06:04 PM
Abu Zakariya

You are right the words "people of the Book" are not in those verses.

I was wondering why Muslims had to discuss whether Zoroastrians were "people of the Book" and why Harranians managed to pass themselves as such.

As Christians, according to Islam, are not monotheists, I understand that "people of the Book" refers only to people having the scriptures mentioned in the Quran.
Do Zoroastrians have one of those scriptures ?
Reply

Abu Zakariya
01-24-2006, 06:22 PM
mansio

You said that the verse "very precisely" mentioned Zoroastrians as one of the people of the Book. We are discussing that verse.
I guess you tried to mention something as a fact, when you in fact didn't even know the slightest thing about the matter.
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POBook
01-25-2006, 07:34 AM
Greetings again Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your replies:)

Regarding my question as to who are identified as "people of the book", you said:
Nations who recieved a revelation, generally Jews and Christians.
Again, a couple of questions:
  1. Was this just one revelation or did it involve several revelations?
  2. What was this/these revelation/s? Do we have records?
  3. When Muhammad made reference to "the book," did this "book" contain the revelations received?
  4. What was Muhammad's understanding of "a book"?


Again, thanks for your time:)

Sincerely,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-25-2006, 02:23 PM
Hi POBook,
1. The revelations were the Tawra and the Injeel, revealed to Prophet Moses and Prophet Jesus pbut respectively. Muslims also believe in the Zabur revealed to Prophet David pbuh. Other than this, there may have been other revelations but the important point is that the Qur'an is our criterion.
2. The previous revelations have not survived in their original form.

For 3 and 4, you'll have to cite the specific verse you're thinking of.

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-25-2006, 05:46 PM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks again for answering my questions.

Concerning questions 3 and 4:

  1. When Muhammad made reference to "the book," did this "book" contain the revelations received?
  2. What was Muhammad's understanding of "the book"?
You asked for some specific verses before answering these two questions.

Al-Qur'an, 5.68 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread]) says,
Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
I'm going to take away the second question but add some other questions here, if that's OK:?
  1. My original question: When Muhammad made reference to "the book," did this "book" contain the revelations received?
  2. In this verse, I assume Jews and Christians are being referenced?
  3. What did Muhammad mean by "no ground to stand upon upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"?
  4. Who was the People of the Book's "Lord"?
  5. If Muhammad encouraged these People of the Book to stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and the revelation, did Muhammad at his time, not think that this Law, Gospel and revelation was in tact--no corruption?
  6. In this verse, Muhammad seems to be encouraging (correct me if I am wrong) the People of the Book to "stand fast" by what it says; to conform their lives to its teaching. In this verse, Muhammad also says, "It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy." Just prior to this, Muhammad encouraged People of the Book to stand fast to this revelation. Muhammad confirms that this revelation came to the People of the Book from their Lord. Muhammad then says that this revelation increases the People of the Book's obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Why would Muhammad encourage people to stand fast to a revelation that increased obstinate rebellion and blasphemy?
  7. Last question: "It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord (People of the Book referenced to in the first person--Muhammad is speaking directly to them), that increaseth in most of them their (People of the Book referenced in the third person)obstinate rebellion and blasphemy." Why would Muhammad suddenly change midway through a sentence from speaking directly to the People of the Book to speaking to other people about the People of the Book?


Again, thanks for your dialogue:).

Sincerely,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-26-2006, 04:54 PM
My original question: When Muhammad made reference to "the book," did this "book" contain the revelations received?
The only mention of book in the verse you quoted is 'people of the book' which refers to those people having recieved revelation as previously mentioned.
In this verse, I assume Jews and Christians are being referenced?
http://www.islamicboard.com/163703-post13.html
Jews and Christians are from the People of the Book, yes.
What did Muhammad mean by "no ground to stand upon upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"?
It meant that everyone should adhere to the revelations once they recieve them. So the Jews deviated when they stopped following the Tawrah and the Christians when they stopped following the Injeel - what is incumbent upon everyone now is to follow the final revelation, the Holy Qur'an.

See also:
http://www.islamicboard.com/139684-post49.html

Who was the People of the Book's "Lord"?
The One God who created everything.
If Muhammad encouraged these People of the Book to stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and the revelation, did Muhammad at his time, not think that this Law, Gospel and revelation was in tact--no corruption?
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh commands them to establish the Tawra and the Injeel - that which was originally revealed to them - and the only way for them to recognize what is truly from the Tawra and the Injeel amongst the scriptures they possesed, was for them to use the Qur'an as a criterion and follow Prophet Muhammad pbuh. In doing this, they would have established the Tawra and the Injeel.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...60&sscatid=133

In this verse, Muhammad seems to be encouraging (correct me if I am wrong) the People of the Book to "stand fast" by what it says; to conform their lives to its teaching.
They are commanded to establish the Tawra and Injeel - see above explanation.
In this verse, Muhammad also says, "It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy."
Maybe you didn't notice that the quotation marks ended in the translation. Now God is informing Prophet Muhammad that the revelation given to him (i.e. the Qur'an) increases most of them (i.e. the Jews and Christians) in obstinate rebellion.

The word 'thee' (Ar. ilayka) is singular in the arabic as is the word 'thy Lord' (Ar. rabbika) - hence this sentence is directed at Prophet Muhammad. If it was addressed to the People of the Book it would be ilaykum and rabikum, i.e. in the arabic plural as are the words in the beginning of the verse when it is addressed to the people of the book.

Muhammad then says that this revelation increases the People of the Book's obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.
The Qur'an is the revelation referred to here.
Why would Muhammad encourage people to stand fast to a revelation that increased obstinate rebellion and blasphemy?
They were rebellious and blasphemous because they didn't follow the Qur'an. He asks them to follow the Qur'an but instead, the more he preaches to them, the more they turn away in rebellion.

Last question: "It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord (People of the Book referenced to in the first person--Muhammad is speaking directly to them), that increaseth in most of them their (People of the Book referenced in the third person)obstinate rebellion and blasphemy."
From the previous comment it is clear why your grammatical analysis is wrong. It is God speaking here, not Prophet Muhammad. Take another look:

Say [O Muhammad]: "O People of the Book! You [People of the Book] have no ground to stand upon unless you [People of the Book] stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you [People of the Book] from your [People of the Book] Lord."

It is the revelation that cometh to thee [Muhammad] from thy [Muhammad] Lord, that increaseth in most of them [People of the Book] their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou [Muhammad] not over (these) people without Faith.

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-26-2006, 06:52 PM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your reply. I'm not too clear on your explanation concerning the following:
Quote:
What did Muhammad mean by "no ground to stand upon upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord"?
It meant that everyone should adhere to the revelations once they recieve them. So the Jews deviated when they stopped following the Tawrah and the Christians when they stopped following the Injeel - what is incumbent upon everyone now is to follow the final revelation, the Holy Qur'an.
  1. If the Jews had their Tawrah and the Christians had their Injeel, and these two groups of people had deviated from their Scriptures, was Muhammad not encouraging them to base their whole lives--everything they thought, said, and did--upon what they already had--their Law, their Gospel, and their Revelation?
  2. Where in this verse does Muhammad tell the Jews and the Christians to follow the Holy Qur'an?

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh commands them to establish the Tawra and the Injeel - that which was originally revealed to them - and the only way for them to recognize what is truly from the Tawra and the Injeel amongst the scriptures they possesed, was for them to use the Qur'an as a criterion and follow Prophet Muhammad pbuh. In doing this, they would have established the Tawra and the Injeel.
  1. Where in this verse does Muhammad command Jews and Christians to "establish" the Tawra and the Injeel? To establish something is to implement it, work on it and bring it to conclusion. From what Muhammad said in this verse, he was telling the Jews and Christians to establish their lives on the Scriptures they already had, not establish new Scriptures.
  2. Was the Qur'an as it is today available to everyone back in the time when Muhammad was still receiving his revelations?


Again---sincerely and thanks for your feedback:)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-26-2006, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
If the Jews had their Tawrah and the Christians had their Injeel, and these two groups of people had deviated from their Scriptures, was Muhammad not encouraging them to base their whole lives--everything they thought, said, and did--upon what they already had--their Law, their Gospel, and their Revelation?
The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was pointing out that the Jews and Christians had deviated from their scriptures and that the only way for them to return to the original message of the scriptures, thus 'establishing' themselves upon it, would be to follow the Qur'an.
Where in this verse does Muhammad tell the Jews and the Christians to follow the Holy Qur'an?
"and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'ân)."

Where in this verse does Muhammad command Jews and Christians to "establish" the Tawra and the Injeel? To establish something is to implement it, work on it and bring it to conclusion. From what Muhammad said in this verse, he was telling the Jews and Christians to establish their lives on the Scriptures they already had, not establish new Scriptures.
I'm sure you understand that the Qur'an is in arabic, not english. The word is tuqeemu which means that they should return to the original messages of their scriptures and the only way for them to do that was to use the Qur'an as a criterion.

Was the Qur'an as it is today available to everyone back in the time when Muhammad was still receiving his revelations?
The process of revelation continued until shortly before Prophet Muhammad pbuh's death.

Regards
Reply

POBook
01-27-2006, 09:01 AM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks again for your response:) . The following verse is the one under consideration.

Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith."
Quote:
Was the Qur'an as it is today available to everyone back in the time when Muhammad was still receiving his revelations?
The process of revelation continued until shortly before Prophet Muhammad pbuh's death.
I understand that the process of revelation continued until shortly before Prophet Muhammad's death. However, the Qur'an as we have it today only came into existence some time after Prophet Muhammad's death. So how could he tell Jews and Christians during his time to follow the Qur'an? It would have been like an author writing a text book for school kids, telling them to learn from what he is writing--an "unpublished" work that has not even been printed and handed out. When Prophet Muhammad addressed Jews and Christians, he had to have been encouraging them to follow their Scriptures that they had; their Scriptures that had already been established many years before and Scriptures they had chosen not to follow. He could not have been encouraging them to follow a scripture that had not yet been completed.

Again, sincerely and with thanks for your dialogue:)

PS, I will respond to John 1:1 in the Atonement forum
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-27-2006, 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
I understand that the process of revelation continued until shortly before Prophet Muhammad's death. However, the Qur'an as we have it today only came into existence some time after Prophet Muhammad's death.
This is not true at all. The Qur'an was not a book that Muhammad was working on like an atuhor; it was a continuous revelation that was preached, memorized and implemented by his followers in thei daily lives.

As the Muslims were already following the Qur'an, there was no reason why the Prophet Muhammad pbuh would not invite the Jews and Christians to do likewise and that is what happened. Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not wait until the completion of the revelation before he went out and began preaching. By the time the revelation was complete, he already had thousands of followers.

Regards
Reply

M H Kahn
01-27-2006, 01:07 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you, O Believers, still hope that they (people of the Book) will believe in what you say, when some of them have already heard the word of Allah and perverted it knowingly after they understood it?[2:75]

When they meet the believers (Muslims) they say: "We too are believers," but when they (people of the Book) meet each other in private, they say: "Would you disclose to the believers (Muslims) what Allah has revealed to you? So that they (Muslims) may use it as an argument against you in the court of your Rabb? Have you no sense?"[2:76]

Do they not really know that Allah knows what they conceal and what they reveal?[2:77]

Among them there are some illiterates who do not know their Holy Book; they follow their own desires and do nothing but conjecture.[2:78]

Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say: "This is from Allah," so that they may sell it for a petty price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they have earned.[2:79]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Now when there has come to them a Book from Allah confirming the Holy Books of Torah and Gospel which they already have - even though before this they used to pray for victory against the unbelievers - when there came to them that which they very well recognize, they knowingly rejected it; Allah’s curse is on such disbelievers.[2:89]

Ridiculous is the price for which they have sold away their souls, that they deny Allah’s revelation merely because of their grudge, that Allah should send His grace only (on an Israelite rather than) on whom He pleases from His servants (Muhammad)! They have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath, and for such disbelievers there is a disgraceful punishment.[2:90]
---------------------------------------------------------------
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M H Kahn
01-27-2006, 01:22 PM
All that is in the heavens and earth declares the glory of Allah, the King, the Holy, the Mighty, the Wise. It is He Who has raised among the unlettered people a Rasool of their own, who recites to them His revelations, purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom, though prior to this they were in gross error, he is also sent for others of them who have not yet joined them (become Muslims). He is the Mighty, the Wise.That is the grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases. Allah is the Lord of mighty grace. [Surah 62:1-4]
Reply

M H Kahn
01-27-2006, 01:52 PM
Has Allah revealed truth in the Gospel?

See what Allah says in the Quran: "Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than God? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.
Reply

M H Kahn
01-27-2006, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks again for your response:) . The following verse is the one under consideration.


I understand that the process of revelation continued until shortly before Prophet Muhammad's death. However, the Qur'an as we have it today only came into existence some time after Prophet Muhammad's death. So how could he tell Jews and Christians during his time to follow the Qur'an? It would have been like an author writing a text book for school kids, telling them to learn from what he is writing--an "unpublished" work that has not even been printed and handed out. When Prophet Muhammad addressed Jews and Christians, he had to have been encouraging them to follow their Scriptures that they had; their Scriptures that had already been established many years before and Scriptures they had chosen not to follow. He could not have been encouraging them to follow a scripture that had not yet been completed.

Again, sincerely and with thanks for your dialogue:)

PS, I will respond to John 1:1 in the Atonement forum
Why mankind should be guided by the Quran
and guidelines given by Muhammed(Sm):


The verses of the holy Quran were learnt by heart by Muhammed (pbuh) and his followers as soon as the same were revealed. They were at the same preserved in writing, though not in the form of a complete book as it is available today. But the revelations were to be complied with at once as they were revealed. So it is very evident when Muhammed (pbuh) addressed Jews, Christians as well as others, he called them all to follow the verses of the Quran that had already been revealed to him.
The earlier divine books, which are not available now in unchanged form, also contained the same basic principle, as enunciated in the holy Quran, that God (in Arabic language, Allah) is the sole Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe and none but He should be worshipped and no partner should be associated with Him in His worship. But probably from time to time the nature and scope of various worships changed with advent of new prophets, and it was always obligatory on the mankind of all times to believe in all prophets, not to differentiate among them with respect to their status with Allah, and to abide by the divine law encoded in the latest book of Divine Law brought to them by the latest prophet up to their time. As Quran is the latest divine book of law revealed to Muhammed (pbuh), the last of the prophets, after whom no further prophet will be sent by Allah, it is obligatory for all the humans on the earth, living from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) till the day of destruction, to live up to the law encoded in the Quran and guidelines given by Muhammed (pbuh).
As a human, living according to the Quran and the guidelines of Muhammed (pbuh), cannot be a submitter (in Arabic language, Muslim) if he has any doubt or disrespect about earlier prophets and the divine books revealed to them, so also a human living on the earth from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) cannot be a submitter or Muslim until he has believed in the Quran and the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and lived accordingly.
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POBook
01-27-2006, 05:56 PM
Hello M H Kahn and Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for your responses. I will certainly respond to your message s as well. I appreciate you taking the time to participate in this dialogue:) !

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-28-2006, 08:55 AM
Hello Ansar Al-‘Adl,

“The Qur'an was not a book that Muhammad was working on like an author”
Does this mean that after Muhammad’s very first revelation he received, the Qur’an came into existence? In other words, was Al-‘Alaq (Sura 96) considered to be the Qur’an?

“As the Muslims were already following the Qur'an, there was no reason why the Prophet Muhammad pbuh would not invite the Jews and Christians to do likewise and that is what happened.”
I’m just not sure how this fits in with, "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord."
  • First, if Muhammad meant what you are suggesting, would he not have encouraged the Christians and Jews to stand fast upon the Qur’an? Why encourage them to stand fast by their Law and their Gospel from “their” Lord?
  • Second, to make reference to the Christian’s and Jew’s Lord as “your Lord” is to distinguish between their Lord and Muhammad’s Lord.
  • Third, if this Law and Gospel was no longer around, how could Muhammad encourage them to stand fast to it? Surely if Muhammad had in mind for these Jews and Christians to stand fast to the Qur’an, he would not have encouraged them to stand fast to their Law and their Gospel?


Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-28-2006, 09:36 AM
Greetings M H Kahn,

Regarding your response # 27:

Now when there has come to them a Book from Allah confirming the Holy Books of Torah and Gospel which they already have - even though before this they used to pray for victory against the unbelievers - when there came to them that which they very well recognize, they knowingly rejected it; Allah’s curse is on such disbelievers.[2:89]

Ridiculous is the price for which they have sold away their souls, that they deny Allah’s revelation merely because of their grudge, that Allah should send His grace only (on an Israelite rather than) on whom He pleases from His servants (Muhammad)! They have drawn on themselves wrath upon wrath, and for such disbelievers there is a disgraceful punishment.[2:90]
How does Allah's Mercy fit in with Allah's curse and Allah's punishment?

You quoted Sura 2:75-79. I also want to add the following Sura:

Al-Qur'an, 4.157 (An-Nisa [Women])
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-"

This Sura makes reference to the People of the Book claiming that they had killed Christ Jesus. I would like to point out that these "People of the Book" in this context, were certainly not true followers of Jesus. True followers of Jesus have no pride in His death. These people who boasted in the death of Jesus were the Jewish religious leaders--Pharisees, Sadducees, and priests. I'm not sure what your understanding is of a follower of Jesus, but these People of the Book in this context as well as the verses you quoted, were not followers of Jesus. They were religious killers and opposers of Jesus.

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-28-2006, 09:47 AM
Hello again M H Kahn,

"He is the Mighty, the Wise.That is the grace of Allah, which He bestows on whom He pleases. Allah is the Lord of mighty grace. [Surah 62:1-4]"
If Allah is the Lord of mighty grace; if He bestows grace on whom He pleases, who is to say that he will not bestow grace on the People of the Book whom he also says will get disgraceful punishment and be cursed? How do you put disgraceful punishment and grace together?

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-28-2006, 09:52 AM
Hello again, again M H Kahn,

"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all."
The Law and the Gospel are the words of Allah. If no one can change the words of Allah, why do people believe the Law and the Gospel have been changed and corrupted?

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-28-2006, 10:14 AM
Hello again, again, again M H Kahn:)

The verses of the holy Quran were learnt by heart by Muhammed (pbuh) and his followers as soon as the same were revealed. They were at the same preserved in writing, though not in the form of a complete book as it is available today. But the revelations were to be complied with at once as they were revealed. So it is very evident when Muhammed (pbuh) addressed Jews, Christians as well as others, he called them all to follow the verses of the Quran that had already been revealed to him.
Thank you for this clear explanation. I better understand what is considered to be the "revelations" of what is now the "Qur'an".

The earlier divine books, which are not available now in unchanged form,
  1. What are these earlier divine books?
  2. By divine, I assume you mean that God was the ultimate Author of these books. Would God allow people to change His books?


As Quran is the latest divine book of law revealed to Muhammed (pbuh), the last of the prophets, after whom no further prophet will be sent by Allah, it is obligatory for all the humans on the earth, living from the time of Muhammed (pbuh) till the day of destruction, to live up to the law encoded in the Quran and guidelines given by Muhammed (pbuh).
If this is the case, why did Muhammad encourage Christians and Jews to stand fast to their Law and their Gospel that was given to them by their Lord? Why did he not simply say, "I am a new prophet with new revelations. You are right in not standing fast to your Law and your Gospel, because now you have a new law and a new gospel and you must now stand fast to these new revelations"?

Again, thanks for your time and participation in this dialogue:)

Sincerely
Reply

M H Kahn
01-28-2006, 03:19 PM
Questions:
What are these earlier divine books?
By divine, I assume you mean that God was the ultimate Author of these books. Would God allow people to change His books?

Attempted Answer:
The Creator has periodically chosen human beings to reveal His messages to humankind. Indeed, the Qur'an refers to many prophets such as Abraham, Noah, David, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them all). These messages and revelations ended with Muhammed being the last of the prophets. The Qur'an refers to Islam as the religion of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. It is, in most part, repeatation of the earlier divine messages through Prophet Muhammad.

Allah says:
Say, Oh Muslims, we believe in Alllah and that which is revealed unto Abraham and Isma'il and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and that which Moses and Jesus received and that which the Prophet received from the Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and unto them we have surrendered. (We are Muslims.)

So, definitely earlier divine books are Jabur Taurat, Engil and many other small books revealed to other prophets.

I think in the Quranic revealation, "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all," it has been meant that none is authorized to change or misinterpret the language of the revealations. Again, "None can change His words" does not mean that with lapse of time a divine book cannot be corrupted by human hands. The earlier divine books revealed to earlier prophets were not recorded instantly in a book form, as happened in case of the Quran, at the time of revealations; those books were written subsequently in indirect speeches from memory of the prophet's compaions and thus, I think, the revealations of God got corrupted intentionally or unintentionally by the writers.

You will be astonished to learn that though for the reason of technological advancement, the Quran, which contains not a single word other than the direct speeches of God, are often misinterpreted by many of so-called Muslim scholars for earning money and fame. They have invented saleable prayers, saleable recitation of the Quran, saleable milad, saleable dhikir and so on.They have invented amulets and talisman commonly called taweez as false cure for diseases. Most of them associate Muhammed (pbuh) as a partner with Allah in prayer. Thus in worshipping Muhammed (pbuh)they refuse to obey the own teachings of the prophet who has taught the people not ot associate any partner with Allah.

While all divine revealations from Adam(pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) and all the prophets have taught the residents of the planet Earth to worship none but Allah alone, a vast majority of the present day Muslims have already gone astray ! They have started worshipping graves, fake saints, prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and so on. There are many corrupted Muslims who disregard the Quranic revealation that all prophets were humans. So you will find many of the the people identied as Muslims are in fact mushrikins; they are wolves donned in Islamic garments. Also note that there is no priesthood in Islam. Despite this in the ambience of ignorance, a priest class called Mullahs has cropped up.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-28-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Does this mean that after Muhammad’s very first revelation he received, the Qur’an came into existence?
It seems you are not very familiar with the Qur'an or life of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh. The Qur'an was revealed and implemented in their lives gradually. There was no point when the Qur'an was "published". As revelation came down it was immediately preached, memorized, recorded and implemented.

You previously used the example of an author writing a textbook for schoolkids. Please allow me to give you a more appropriate analogy.
Suppose there is a teacher who is teaching his students mathematics. He will teach them the lessons gradually and give them one lesson per day. Can the students object and say, "How can we follow what you are teaching when you have not give us the complete set of lessons for the entire course?" Obviously not.
According to your ideas, the Qur'an should not have asked anyone to follow it until it was completely revealed. Yet this is clearly not the case. The Qur'an contains hundreds of verses telling believers to obey its commandments.

In other words, was Al-‘Alaq (Sura 96) considered to be the Qur’an?
The first verses of Al-Alaq were the first verses revealed. How you can conclude from that that Al-Alaq is the entire Qur'an is beyond me.

First, if Muhammad meant what you are suggesting, would he not have encouraged the Christians and Jews to stand fast upon the Qur’an?
He did.

5:15 O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allâh a light (Prophet Muhammad) and a plain Book (this Qur'ân).

3:98 Say: "O People of the Book! Why reject ye the Ayât of Allah, when Allah is Himself witness to all ye do?"

98:6 Those who disbelieve among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures.


As for the verse you are referring to, I already pointed out that the Porphet Muhammad pbuh explained to them that if they accepted the Qur'an ("what has now been revealed to you") they would be fullfilling the requirements of the revelations originally sent to them.

Second, to make reference to the Christian’s and Jew’s Lord as “your Lord” is to distinguish between their Lord and Muhammad’s Lord.
Not at all. As a matter of fact, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was pointing out that the Qur'an was from the same Lord who sent the previous revelations. If one reads the Qur'an completely and not selectively, they will see that in another place, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh tells the People of the Book:
42:15 Allâh is our Lord and your Lord.

Third, if this Law and Gospel was no longer around, how could Muhammad encourage them to stand fast to it?
I just answered the exact same question in my previous post. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh asked the People of the Book to tuqeemu (establish) the Injeel and Tawra and the only way for them to do that was to accept the Qur'an as a criterion as the Prophet Muhammad pbuh pointed out.

Regards
Reply

M H Kahn
01-29-2006, 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by POBook
Greetings M H Kahn,

Regarding your response # 27:



How does Allah's Mercy fit in with Allah's curse and Allah's punishment?

You quoted Sura 2:75-79. I also want to add the following Sura:

Al-Qur'an, 4.157 (An-Nisa [Women])
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-"

This Sura makes reference to the People of the Book claiming that they had killed Christ Jesus. I would like to point out that these "People of the Book" in this context, were certainly not true followers of Jesus. True followers of Jesus have no pride in His death. These people who boasted in the death of Jesus were the Jewish religious leaders--Pharisees, Sadducees, and priests. I'm not sure what your understanding is of a follower of Jesus, but these People of the Book in this context as well as the verses you quoted, were not followers of Jesus. They were religious killers and opposers of Jesus.

Sincerely,

As declared repeatedly in the Quran, Allah is oft-merciful to the believers when they sincerely repent after they have committed any acts of sins. But for those who refuse to believe and obey, Allah will punish them.
Reply

POBook
01-29-2006, 09:23 AM
Greetings M H Kahn,

Thank you for your response (#37). I must say that I found parts of your response so very, very interesting, especially your description of what you called “mushrikins…wolves donned in Islamic garments.” I hope you don’t mind me quoting you a verse of Scripture concerning what Jesus said about the Pharisees in His day:

“Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves” (Matthew 7:15).

You mentioned how many “so-called Muslim scholars” earn their money through deception, worship Muhammad, and have gone astray. Again, this situation is so much like the Pharisees—the religious leaders of Jesus’ day. I could quote the whole of Matthew 23, but if you have access to a Bible, read this chapter—I really think you will appreciate it.

Again, I appreciate your explanation of the verse containing the words, “None can change His words.” I also understand that Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted and has been changed. But I am a firm believer that the Bible has not been corrupted and changed, and we have much historical evidence to prove that. The gospels as we have them today, are exactly the same as the oldest manuscripts we have—manuscripts that were written 300-400 years before Muhammad was even born. The scrolls of the Torah that were discovered in the caves of Qumran, proved that Scripture was accurately copied over hundreds of years. I know I keep saying this, but if Muhammad encouraged Jews and Christians to conform their lives to the Law and the Gospels, Muhammad must have understood that in his time, the Law and the Gospels were in tact and had not been corrupted.

Again, I appreciate your dialogue…thanks:) !
Reply

POBook
01-29-2006, 09:27 AM
Hello M H Kahn,

As declared repeatedly in the Quran, Allah is oft-merciful to the believers when they sincerely repent after they have committed any acts of sins. But for those who refuse to believe and obey, Allah will punish them.
What is your definition of mercy?

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-29-2006, 11:11 AM
Hello Ansar Al-‘Adl,

“According to your ideas, the Qur'an should not have asked anyone to follow it until it was completely revealed. Yet this is clearly not the case. The Qur'an contains hundreds of verses telling believers to obey its commandments.”
I understand all you are saying. I was trying to understand clearly what you were meaning when making reference to “the Qur’an” back in Muhammad’s day. Back in his day, “the Qur’an” as you have it today (which is actually not the Qur’an as it exists today—another thread), only came into existence when his final revelation was recorded. If my understanding is correct, yes the revelations were learned, memorized, and preached—but only the revelations that had come to Muhammad. Ones that were still to come were not preached or memorized.

“The first verses of Al-Alaq were the first verses revealed. How you can conclude from that that Al-Alaq is the entire Qur'an is beyond me.”
This was never my conclusion. I was trying to understand better what you were saying. You kept referring to what I considered to be revelations, as "the Quran." For eg,

“The Prophet Muhammad pbuh was pointing out that the Jews and Christians had deviated from their scriptures and that the only way for them to return to the original message of the scriptures, thus 'establishing' themselves upon it, would be to follow the Qur'an.”

What I assume you were meaning by this was that Muhammad was telling the Jews and Christians to follow the revelations he had received and preached—yes, nitpicky, but important I think.

“The Prophet Muhammad pbuh asked the People of the Book to tuqeemu (establish) the Injeel and Tawra and the only way for them to do that was to accept the Qur'an as a criterion as the Prophet Muhammad pbuh pointed out.”
Am I correct in saying that you are saying that the Injeel and the Tawra in their original form can be found as such within the Quran?

5.69 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
“Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
Is not Muhammad making a clear distinction here between the Qur’an and the Jewish Scriptures?

5.46
“And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.”
What is meant by “confirming the Law that had come before Him”?


5.47
“Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.”
Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Gospel to judge by what Allah had revealed "therein"? Why did he not encourage them to judge but what he was now revealing? For Muhammad to encourage people of the Gospel to judge by what was in the Gospel, was for Muhammad in his time to accept the Gospels for what they were and to accept their authority.

Sincerely and with thanks for your dialogue:) ,
Reply

M H Kahn
01-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by POBook
Hello M H Kahn,

What is your definition of mercy?

Sincerely,
The term 'Mercy' is generally used to signify compassionate treatment, especially of those under one's power. It is a disposition to be kind, forgiving and alleviating distress. Accordingly, I think, God's mercy denotes His kindness, forgiveness and compassionate treatment to His slaves, that is, to those humans who submit to His wills expressed through Divine Revealations and His Messangers starting from Adam to Mohammed(pbuh), the seal of the prophetic chain.
Reply

POBook
01-29-2006, 11:59 AM
Hey M H Kahn,
What is your definition of justice?
Reply

M H Kahn
01-29-2006, 03:23 PM
:sl:
One who accepted "the divinely revealed code of faith and conduct" ordained for the mankind by God in form of revealations and guidance through His messangers, sent from time to time, was always a submitter, meaning , in Arabic, a Muslim. But all people never accepted the divine code of faith and conduct as Allah says about the disbelievers and misbelievers:

In the past, many Prophets have fought, in the Way of Allah, with a large number of godly people. They did not lose heart during the adversities that befell them in the path of Allah; they neither showed weakness nor submitted to falsehood. Allah loves the steadfast. Their only words were, “Our Rabb! Forgive our sins and our excesses; establish our feet firmly and give us victory over the unbelievers." Therefore, Allah gave them the reward in this world and also an excellent reward awaits them in the Hereafter. Allah loves the righteous who are good to others.[3:146-148]

The same recurred at the time of Mohammed(pbuh). As regards corruption in the faith and conduct among some of the people who already had Divine Books and prophetic guidance before Mohammed (pbuh), Allah says:

Are they looking for a religion other than the Deen (religion and Way of Life) of Allah knowing well that everything in the heavens and in the earth, willingly or unwillingly, has submitted to Him? And to Him they shall all return. O Prophet, say: “We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrãhïm (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishãq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob) and their descendants; and in that which was given to Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus) and other Prophets from their Rabb; we do not discriminate between any one of them, and to Allah do we submit in Islam." If anyone is looking for a religion other than Islam, then let it be known that it will not be accepted from him; and in the Hereafter he will be among the losers. [3:83-85]

Allah further says:

Anyone who obeys the Rasool, in fact, obeys Allah. As for those who pay no heed, they should know that We have not sent you as a taskmaster over them. They will say: “We are at your service!” Yet when they leave you, some of them meet together secretly at night to plot against what you have said. Allah notes down all their plots. Therefore, leave them alone and put your trust in Allah. Allah is your all sufficient trustee.[4:80-81]

O Muhammad, We have sent revelations to you just as We sent to Nüh (Noah) and the Prophets who came after him; We also sent revelations to Ibrãhïm (Abraham), Isma`il (Ishmael), Ishãq (Isaac), Ya'qoob (Jacob), his descendants, Isa (Jesus), Ayüb (Job), Yünus (Jonah), Haroon (Aaron) and Sulaimãn (Solomon), and to Dawõõd (David) We gave the Psalms.Revelations were also sent to those Rasools whom We have already mentioned to you and to those whose name We have not mentioned; to Musa Allah spoke directly. All these Rasools conveyed good news to mankind and admonished them so that, after conveying the message through the Rasools, people should have no excuse to plead against Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.People may or may not believe it, but Allah bears witness that what He has sent to you, O Muhammad, He has sent with His own Knowledge and so do the angels;though Allah’s testimony alone is sufficient.[4:163-166]
Reply

M H Kahn
01-29-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation; if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety; if any behavior or approach to life that did not conform to the Sriptures was considered by Allah to be a divergence from the Truth...why do Muslims believe the Scriptures have been corrupted? It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran. If these Scriptures are today what they were when first written; if Allah is guarding them in safety; if Allah considers these scriptures to be the truth, how can these Scriptures have been corrupted?

:sl:
If you look at the pronoun "it" in "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety" you may find that "it" signifies the Quran by the expression ""To thee We sent the Scripture in truth".


:hiding:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-29-2006, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Am I correct in saying that you are saying that the Injeel and the Tawra in their original form can be found as such within the Quran?
The message of the Tawra and the Injeel is found in the Qur'an. If someone reads something in the Bible and wishes to know if it was truly revealed from god they must check to see if it is consistent with the Qur'an.

5.69 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
“Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
This verse is explained in great detail here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/139684-post49.html

What is meant by “confirming the Law that had come before Him”?
It means that the revelation given to Prophet Jesus pbuh confirmed the revelation given to Prophet Moses pbuh.

Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Gospel to judge by what Allah had revealed "therein"?
This is like the other verse. What are they to judge? They are to judge the truth - one of the signs for the People of the Book concerning the veracity of the Qur'an was that its message was in accordance with that of their scriptures and their scriptures prophesized the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. So the People of the Book had to judge whether Prophet Muhammad pbuh was a true messenger with a true message or not. They were to build their judgement upon what they knew was preached in the scriptures by earlier Prophets. This is why most of them accepted Islam (see Qur'an 28:51-55).

Regards
Reply

M H Kahn
01-29-2006, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Al-Maeda 48 (Sura 5:48)

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee..."

If the Sriptures were considered to be Truth when Muhammad received this revelation; if the Scriptures were guarded by Allah in safety; if any behavior or approach to life that did not conform to the Sriptures was considered by Allah to be a divergence from the Truth...why do Muslims believe the Scriptures have been corrupted? It is clear that the Scriptures as they are written today, are in accord with the Scriptures written three years before the Qu'ran. If these Scriptures are today what they were when first written; if Allah is guarding them in safety; if Allah considers these scriptures to be the truth, how can these Scriptures have been corrupted?
:sl:
Hi POBook !
If you look at the pronoun "it" in "To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety" you may find that "it" used twice in the sentence signifies the Quran by the expression ""To thee We sent the Scripture in truth".

I think the debate will never end whether you should accept "the code of faith and conduct" as recorded in the now available Bible or "the code of faith and conduct" as recorded in the Quran (the direct speeches of God) and Al-Hadith (speeches of Mohammed). You must apply your reasoning power to perceive that there is one God, the only Creator of everything in the earth and in heavens including the humans who will be punished or rewarded in the hereafter on the basis of their code of faith and conduct in this life. The "code of faith and conduct" for the entire mankind of a time must be one. The "code of faith" must have been the same from the time of Adam until now and it must be so for ever, even in the hereafter. You must be convinced that all the prophets were sent with the same "code of faith". God is one, the first and the last. He is not dependent on any of His creations; on the contrary, the entire creation is dependent on Him. Best stated by Allah Himself in chapter 112 of the Quran: "Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient (independent of all, while all are dependent on Him); He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable to Him."

To enumerate:-
* Allah the One and Only.
* He is Self-Sufficient [independent of all, while all are dependent on Him].
* He is not a father to any.
* He has no parent as well.
* There is none comparable or equal to Him
* "And the places of worship are for God: So invoke not any one along with God." [72:18]

The prophets were from among humans and they were of no exception from complying with "the code of faith and conduct" they were ordered to teach the people. While the "code of faith" is a constant, "the code of conduct" has varied from time to time with the advent of new prophets.

You may ponder over Allah's sayings:
Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you. Among the Jews there are some who take the words out of their context and utter them with a twist of their tongues to slander the true Deen (faith) and say: “We hear and we disobey;” and “Hear, may you (O Muhammad) hear nothing!” And “Rã'ina” (an ambiguous word meaning: "listen, may you become deaf," or "our shepherd," or "in judeo-Arabic language conveying the sense of "our evil one"). If only they had said: “We hear and we obey;” and “Hear us;” and “Unzurna ("look upon us," or " pay attention to us"): it would have been better for them and more proper. Due to all this Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. In fact with the exception of a few, they have no faith. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have now revealed (The Qur'an), confirming your own scriptures, before We obliterate your faces and turn them backward, or lay Our curse on you as We laid Our curse on the Sabbath-breakers: and remember that Allah’s command is always executed. Surely Allah does not forgive shirk (associating any partner with Him); and may forgive sins other than that if He so pleases. This is because one who commits shirk with Allah, does indeed invent a great sinful lie. Have you not seen those who speak very highly of their own purity even though they are committing shirk. In fact, Allah purifies whom He wishes. If the mushrikïn are not purified, no injustice - even equal to the thread of a date-stone - is being done to them. See how they invent a lie against Allah, and this in itself is enough to show their manifest sin. Have you not seen those who were given a portion of the Book? They believe in superstition and Tãghüt (forces of Shaitãn) and say about the unbelievers that they are better guided to the Right Way than the believers! Those are the ones whom Allah has cursed, and the one who is cursed by Allah can find no helper. Do they have a share in the kingdom? If they had any share they would have not given other people equal to a speck on a date-stone.Or do they envy other people because Allah has given them from His grace? If so, let them know that We did give the Book and Wisdom to the descendants of Ibrãhïm (Abraham), and blessed them with a great kingdom. But some of them believed in it and some turned away. Sufficient is hell to burn those who turned away.[4:44-55]

Ponder Again:
They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. Why turn they not to God, and seek His forgiveness? For God is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.Christ the son of Mary was no more than an apostle; many were the apostles that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
[5:72-75]

As some Christians misbelieve that only God exists in trinity[ God Himself, Mary and Jesus], a similar misbelief has cropped up among a group of Mohammedans, contrary to what declared in the holy Quran, that the only God exists in duality[ God Himself and Mohammed]. The proponents of the duality theory are not yet a distinct class. They have invented fake saying of Mohammed by attributing obviously lies that he (Mohammed) was created out of the light of God and was sent in human shape, while the Quran declares that Adam was the first human and all the prophets were from among the humans.

Now think! When many coruptions with resultant groups and sub-groups have already taken place among the followers of Mohammed (pbuh), how could you assert that the earlier Scripture Books contain God's revealations in toto. If so, why are there so many groups? Why so many groups even among those who claim to have accepted the Quran and guidance of Mohammed (pbuh) as their code of life? If the term 'Islam'' means complete 'Submission to God', then, I think, not the Jews, nor the Christians, nor all the Muslims are in Islam or 'Submission to God' today; because Jews and Christians do not accept Mohammed (pbuh) as a prohet and some groups among the Mohamedans themselves have attributed lies upon him even in glare violation of the Quranic truth.

I pray that you find the real truth about Submission to God, Who may help you find the true divinely ordained code of belief and conduct which is meant for the present day mankind on earth !!! To conclude, to quote from the Quran,"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things. Qur'an 2:256


:hiding:
Reply

M H Kahn
01-30-2006, 07:05 AM
Some Quotations from Writings of Christians:

**
According to the Bible, it is customary to call any prophet of God, or righteous man, a son of God. Jesus (pbuh) called himself the son of man, not God or God's literal son.
[Matt. 13:37; Luke 12:10; 1 Tim. 2:5.]

**
Evidently, Paul was most responsible for elevating the status of Jesus (pbuh) to the son of God, distorting the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).
[Acts 9:20]

**
Jesus (pbuh) is not considered now by many Christians to be the 'begotten' son of God (as it used to be in John 3:16) since this story has been removed from the Revised Standard Version (RSV), as well as many other new versions of the Bible. Furthermore, God emphatically says in the Qur'an that He does not have a son.[19:88-92.] However, God also declared that He created Adam (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh): "Indeed, the example of Jesus to God is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him "Be", and he was." (3:59)

**
Subsequently, emperors and clergy made further fabrications, contrary to what Jesus (pbuh) had said or done. One such fabrication is the concept of Trinity in which Jesus (pbuh) is one of the three manifestations of the Trinitarian God [the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost].[1 John 5:7.] In the Bible, this verse is used as the best proof for the Doctrine Trinity, even though this doctrine was never brought forth by Jesus (pbuh), his disciples, or any Christian scholars. In fact, it was enacted after much disagreement and conflict among Christians in the year 325 AD at the Council Nicea. Interestingly, this verse has been expunged from the Bibles of the modern age. In addition, the Qur'an warns the Jews Christians to refrain from disbelieving in revelation of God and against believing in Trinity.[ 3:19; 4:171; 5:73.]
Reply

POBook
01-31-2006, 12:46 PM
Greetings again Ansar Al-'Adl,

The message of the Tawra and the Injeel is found in the Qur'an. If someone reads something in the Bible and wishes to know if it was truly revealed from god they must check to see if it is consistent with the Qur'an.
When exactly was the message of the Tawra and the Injeel corrupted from their original form?
Al-Qur'an, 005.047 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
Was the Gospel the Qur’an or was the Gospel some other piece of writing to which Muhammad was referring? Of what was this Gospel comprised—a few words a few chapters—what? Were the “people of the Gospel” Muslims or were the people of the Gospel Jews and Christians? Are the people of the Gospel told to judge by what Allah has revealed in the Gospel or are they told to judge by what Allah has revealed in the Qur’an?

one of the signs for the People of the Book concerning the veracity of the Qur'an was that its message was in accordance with that of their scriptures and their scriptures prophesized the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh
1.Please quote the Scripture in the Gospel that specifically prophesied the coming of Muhammad.
2.Where is this exact same verse found in the Qur’an to prove its authenticity?

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
01-31-2006, 01:52 PM
Greetings M H Kahn,

According to the Bible, it is customary to call any prophet of God, or righteous man, a son of God. Jesus (pbuh) called himself the son of man, not God or God's literal son.
[Matt. 13:37; Luke 12:10; 1 Tim. 2:5.]
The first question I want to ask you, is this: are the above scriptures from the Gospel corrupt or not? I assume if you think the above verses are not corrupt, you will not consider the below verses corrupt. Is the Apostle Paul who wrote 1 Timothy, telling the truth here or is he lying?
Consider the following words by Jesus,
“Joh 3:16 "For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God.”
Consider the following words by the Apostle Paul,
Gal 2:20 “I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.”
Rom 1:4 “And was established as the powerful Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of holiness.”
If you would like some explanation concerning Jesus as the Son of Man, the Son of God, and the Son of David, (all three references used of His idenity) please let me know.

Evidently, Paul was most responsible for elevating the status of Jesus (pbuh) to the son of God, distorting the teachings of Jesus (pbuh).
[Acts 9:20]
Are you aware that Paul wrote 1 Timothy—the book you are quoting above that contains reference to Jesus as a man—“For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, a man, Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5)? So why do you have a problem with Paul? If Jesus claimed Himself as the Son of God, why do you have a problem with Paul claiming Jesus as the Son of God? Either they are both evil liars or they are both telling the truth.

Jesus (pbuh) is not considered now by many Christians to be the 'begotten' son of God (as it used to be in John 3:16)
I can only say that people who do not consider Jesus to be the Son of God are not Christians. They are members of a sect that call themselves Christians—but they are not true Christians.

since this story has been removed from the Revised Standard Version (RSV), as well as many other new versions of the Bible.
Various versions of the Bible today are based upon the oldest Greek manuscripts of scripture that we have. Some of these manuscripts have scriptures that are not found in other manuscripts. This does not mean that content was not written. Some manuscripts have lost content while others have maintained content.

Concerning the term “Son of God”: Jesus was not born into this world as a result of God having sex with Mary. Jesus birth was a miraculous birth implemented by the Father through the Holy Spirit. All three—Jesus, The Father, the Holy Spirit are not three gods, but one. If you are interested in reading more about the Trinity, check out Atonement under comparative religions.

Sincerely and I look forward to your reply:) .
Reply

mizan_aliashraf
01-31-2006, 01:58 PM
Salams
The Tawrat and the Injeel were true messages sent by God to the people they were meant for. They contained the words of wisdom and guidance. However, the people either turned agains their prophet or took him to such a high level that they placed him as a lord or son of the lord (a'udhubillah).
Once the revelation of the Qur'an was made, it immediately cancelled out the other scriptures (the Tawrah & Injeel). The Qur'an is the last word of Allah to mankind and it has been preserved. As Allah says

"It is we who have revealed this rememberance (the Qur'an) and it is we who will protect it"

Wassalam
Reply

M H Kahn
01-31-2006, 03:53 PM
:hiding:

We are given to understand that all the divine revelations made to Messangers of God contained the words of wisdom and guidance for the mankind.The tasks of the Messangers were to guide the people according to the revelations. But never all people accepted the guidance;some readily accepted and some rejected. This is not all; many prophets were even killed by the rebellious. With passage of time, when most people relapsed into disbelief and misbelief and misguidance, God sent new Messangers sometimes with new books and sometimes without books. Mohammed (pbuh) is the last of Messangers and the Quran, which has remained untainted from corruption, is the last of the divine books.

The Quran was learnt by heart, written down and disseminated as soon as the revelations were received by Mohammed(pbuh). But Al-Hadith, which consisted of religious sayings in the own words of Mohammed(pbuh), were written much later, nearly 200 years after his death, by various scholars from hearsays. As a result, despite taking extraordinary precaution, corruption took place in Al-Hadith to some degree for limitations of human memory. I think, also read in various writings, that the Testaments, which are now available in various editions with varying contents, were compiled in the same manner. If so, the result was the corruption in writing or re-writing the revelations and consequently in the guidance in the way God. I think such form of corruption necessitated sending Messangers from time to time to guide the people in the divinely ordained way.

Remeber ! The only One God has ordained only One Code of Faith and Conduct for the only One Mankind. So we must find that only code of faith and conduct if we want to save ourselves from hellfire. Allah says:

And remember when Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam said: “O children of Israel! I am the Rasool of Allah towards you, confirming the Torah which came before me, and to give you good news of a Rasool that will come after me whose name shall be Ahmed (another name of Muhammad, meaning ‘The praised one’)." But when he (Muhammad) came to them with clear signs, they said “This is plain magic."[61:6]

:hiding:
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-31-2006, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
When exactly was the message of the Tawra and the Injeel corrupted from their original form?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006...lance&n=283155

You will find some online perspectives under the last section here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/

Was the Gospel the Qur’an or was the Gospel some other piece of writing to which Muhammad was referring? Of what was this Gospel comprised—a few words a few chapters—what? Were the “people of the Gospel” Muslims or were the people of the Gospel Jews and Christians? Are the people of the Gospel told to judge by what Allah has revealed in the Gospel or are they told to judge by what Allah has revealed in the Qur’an?
The important question here, as I already pointed out to you, is what they were being asked to judge. What was being debated? It was the Prophet Muhammad's prophethood, and they were informed that if they followed their own scriptures they would find that the essence of the message was the same, and that Muhammad pbuh was prophesized in their scriptures.

The gospel (ar. Injeel) was the message preached by Jesus pbuh. God knows exactly how long it was in length.

And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...” (Matthew 9:35)

The people being discussed were Christians. If they judged by the essential message of the revelations sent to them, they would realize that the Qur'an is the word of God, and His final criterion.

Please quote the Scripture in the Gospel that specifically prophesied the coming of Muhammad.
Please refer to pages 153-227 of In Defense of Islam for an in-depth discussion of Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the Old and New Testament. We have so many threads discussing this on the forum already.

Where is this exact same verse found in the Qur’an to prove its authenticity?
The proof of its authenticity is found in many Qur'anic verses, eg. Surah 61:6 which explicitly mentions that Prophet Jesus prohesized the coming of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

Regards
Reply

POBook
02-01-2006, 01:32 PM
Greetings mizan_aliashraf,

Thanks for your response.

The Tawrat and the Injeel were true messages sent by God to the people they were meant for. They contained the words of wisdom and guidance. However, the people either turned agains their prophet or took him to such a high level that they placed him as a lord or son of the lord (a'udhubillah).
Once the revelation of the Qur'an was made, it immediately cancelled out the other scriptures (the Tawrah & Injeel). The Qur'an is the last word of Allah to mankind and it has been preserved. As Allah says

"It is we who have revealed this rememberance (the Qur'an) and it is we who will protect it"
If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?
Reply

POBook
02-01-2006, 03:10 PM
Greetings,

I really want to gain a clear understanding of this passage. I ask that you please answer my questions clearly and simply. I know that I may be repetative and somewhat "dumb", but I want to make sure I understand this correctly.

Al-Qur'an, 005.043 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
"But why do they come to thee for decision..."
  1. Who is "they"?
  2. Who is "thee"?


"When they have their own law before them?"
  1. Who is "they"?
  2. What is "their own law"?
  3. What does it mean to have this law "before them"?


What was the purpose of this question, "But why do they come to thee for decision when they have (their own) law before them?

"Therein is the (plain) command of Allah;"
  1. In where was this plain command of Allah?
  2. What was this "plain command" of Allah?


"Yet even after that, they would turn away."
  1. Even after what?
  2. Who would turn away?
  3. From what would they turn away?


"For they are not really People of Faith."
  1. Who were the People of Faith?
  2. What was used to define People of Faith so that one could tell the difference between those who were People of Faith and those who wee not People of Faith?


Thanks for your willingness to help me better understand these verses:) !
Reply

POBook
02-01-2006, 03:30 PM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Please help me to understand this. Muslims believe the Gospels have been corrupted. Yet, over and over again, including the book you referenced me to see on the internet, Muslims use verses of Scripture to support their thinking and their perspective. I cannot understand that:heated::? Please correct me if I am wrong. If someone takes a verse from a source they say is corrupt in order to support their perspective, who is to say that the verse they are using is not corrupt? Please help me to understand this. You have quoted a verse to illustrate your point but I'm sure you will be one of the first people to say the Injeel is corrupt. How do you know that the verse you used to make your point is not a verse that is corrupt and therefore does not mean what it actually says?

Sincerely,
Reply

M H Kahn
02-01-2006, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Greetings mizan_aliashraf,

Thanks for your response.

If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?
Hi PO Book !
The following verses may be of helpto you:

057.025
We sent aforetime our messengers with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His messengers: For Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

057.026
And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation: and some of them were on right guidance. But many of them became rebellious transgressors.

005.044
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.

005.046
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

57.027
Then, in their wake, We followed them up with (others of) Our messengers: We sent after them Jesus the son of Mary, and bestowed on him the Gospel; and We ordained in the hearts of those who followed him Compassion and Mercy. But the Monasticism which they invented for themselves, We did not prescribe for them: (We commanded) only the seeking for the Good Pleasure of Allah; but that they did not foster as they should have done. Yet We bestowed, on those among them who believed, their (due) reward, but many of them are rebellious transgressors.

[048.029
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

003.003
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

005.048
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

05.077
Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way

005.078
Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

007.157
"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

05.049
And this (He commands): Judge thou between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they beguile thee from any of that (teaching) which Allah hath sent down to thee. And if they turn away, be assured that for some of their crime it is Allah's purpose to punish them. And truly most men are rebellious.

005.051
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

005.047
Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

Recording of Gopsels:
The humans have been given very limited knowledge. If you believe in God
to be all-powerful over all things in the earth and in the heavens, you cannot
question the rationale of God's work. The Quran was learnt by heart, written down and disseminated as soon as the revelations were received by Mohammed (pbuh). But Al-Hadith, which consisted of religious sayings in the own words of Mohammed (pbuh), were written much later, nearly 200 years after his death, by various scholars from reliable hearsays. As a result, despite taking extraordinary precaution, corruption took place in Al-Hadith to some degree for limitations of human memory. I think, also read in various writings, that the Testaments, which are now available in various editions with varying contents, were compiled in the same manner by different individuals much later after the death of Jesus (pbuh). If so, the result was the corruption in writing or re-writing the revelations and consequently in the guidance in the way of God. I think such form of corruption necessitated sending Messangers from time to time to guide the people in the divinely ordained way.
Reply

POBook
02-01-2006, 04:31 PM
Hi there M H Kahn,

I appreciate your response but I feel you did not answer the question. Why would God not protect the Gospel and the Tawrah but protect the Qur'an?

Sincerely,
Reply

M H Kahn
02-01-2006, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Hi there M H Kahn,

I appreciate your response but I feel you did not answer the question. Why would God not protect the Gospel and the Tawrah but protect the Qur'an?

Sincerely,
The answer is beyond human reasoning. You cannot know the rationale of God's work unless God Himself has made it known to you. Inventing stories to justify the rationale of God's action in human reasoning will be transgressing the limits set by God, Who has said regarding the limitation of human knowledge:"They cannot gain access to any thing out of His knowledge except what He pleases." 2:55
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-01-2006, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Please help me to understand this. Muslims believe the Gospels have been corrupted. Yet, over and over again, including the book you referenced me to see on the internet, Muslims use verses of Scripture to support their thinking and their perspective. I cannot understand that:heated::? Please correct me if I am wrong. If someone takes a verse from a source they say is corrupt in order to support their perspective, who is to say that the verse they are using is not corrupt? Please help me to understand this. You have quoted a verse to illustrate your point but I'm sure you will be one of the first people to say the Injeel is corrupt. How do you know that the verse you used to make your point is not a verse that is corrupt and therefore does not mean what it actually says?
Hello POBook,
You asked this before and I answered it and since then my answer has not changed, so I don't see the need to repeat myself.

As for the verse from the New Testament I quoted, it obviously is one human's input into what Jesus did but the sole point is that Jesus preached a message - this is what Muslims believe and this is even what is found in the New Testament, as altered as it may be.

Regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-01-2006, 05:30 PM
Hello POBook,
I will explain this verse, which should answer all of your questions. The verse says:
5:43 But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurât (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allâh; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers.

The historical context of this verse (as recorded in many sources such as Al-Baghawi, Ibn Kathir, etc.) is that some of the Jews would bring their disputes to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh because they believed he would give them easier or less severe verdicts than those which they found in the Torah. Yet at the same time they still remained disbelievers and did not accept Islam. The sheer hypocrisy of these people, in asking the Prophet saws for a judgement when they did not believe in him is exposed in this verse. They did not even follow their own Torah, even though they believed it to be the true command of God!

The particular incident was that two Jews committed adultery and then came to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh seeking a lesser punishment because their tribes felt it was inappropriate to punish people from noble families. In this case, they evaded the law God had revealed to Moses pbuh concerning the adulterers.

Regards
Reply

POBook
02-01-2006, 08:46 PM
Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks very much for your reply and continuing dialogue. The way you have explained this verse was my basic understanding of it. It is interesting to know about the particular sin which was being addressed--adultary. Before I move on to the next verse, let me clarify one more thing. Was Allah saying that the Jews did not need to be coming to Muhammad for a decision, because their own Torah already had the decision--the laws?

Sincerely,
Reply

Abu Zakariya
02-01-2006, 09:00 PM
As for the preservation of the Tawrat and the Injeel, God gave the responsibility of that task to the people. It was their duty to preserve it. Why? God knows best. Maybe as a test...

As for the Qur'an, the last revelation, the preservation of it was something God took upon Himself, so to speak. This time, humans weren't responsible for it's preservation, instead, He guaranteed He would preserve it.

This was mentioned by Ansar al-'Adl in previous discussions. Perhaps he can elaborate.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-01-2006, 09:59 PM
Hi POBook,
No, it was just exposing their hypocrisy. Rejecting him altogether is still wrong, but coming to him for a judgement while rejecting him is downright hypocritical.

Regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-01-2006, 10:02 PM
:sl: Br. Abu Zakariya,
Previous revelations were specific to the nation for which they were sent, hence the test for the people was to preserve the text. For the Qur'an, its message is universal, os insteading of being tested with preserving the text, Muslims have the test of propagating the message to the world, while God preserves the text. So everyone was tested, just in different ways. As I said in a previous thread:
For previous revelations, God entrusted the duty of their preservation to their nation. But for the Qur'an, Muslims do not have the duty of its preservation but its propagation as the Qur'an is a revelation for all humanity (previous prophets were sent specifically to their nations).
I hope that clarifies.
:w:
Reply

POBook
02-02-2006, 03:25 PM
Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Do you mind explaining your previous answer in another way. I do not quite understand your previous answer.

Thanks,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-02-2006, 03:30 PM
Hi POBook,
The jews did not believe in the Prophet Muhammad pbuh yet they still came to him for a judgement. The ayat is asking them why they come to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if they don't think he's a prophet? That's hypocritical. That doesn't mean that the ayat is saying, "reject him completely" it is merely exposing their hypocrisy.

Regards
Reply

POBook
02-02-2006, 03:36 PM
Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Previous revelations were specific to the nation for which they were sent, hence the test for the people was to preserve the text.
For which nation was the Injeel specifically sent?

Thanks,
Reply

POBook
02-02-2006, 03:55 PM
I am still confused:? . Allow me to express this verse in everyday English if I may:

"But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurât (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allâh; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers."

"Muhammad, how do these Jews come to you to make a decision concerning them having broken one of their laws? They have their own consequences for breaking their own laws. Their laws are found in their Torah and the consequences for breaking those laws are also found in their Torah. They need to consult their own law instead of coming to you. You need to know Muhammad, that even if they consulted their own Law, they are hypocrites, and would not follow what it says, so why do you think they would follow what you might say. Don't waste your time with them."

Thanks,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-02-2006, 04:00 PM
No, that's not an accurate expression of the meaning. It would be more like:

"Even though they reject you, O Muhammad, and disbelieve in you, these Jews still come to you for a decision. They claim to follow the Torah yet they seek a ruling from the prophet they reject instead of the laws of their torah. Yet even when they take a ruling from you, they still are not believers."

I see no reason for these phrases you have added:
"they need to consult their own law instead of coming to you."
"Don't waste your time with them."

Regards
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-02-2006, 04:09 PM
Matthew 15:24 [Jesus] answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

See also Matthew 10:5-7.

Regards
Reply

POBook
02-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Hello Ansar Al-'Adl,

Is this text not corrupt?

Sincerely,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-02-2006, 09:45 PM
I just explained this issue a few posts back. Belief that the Bible has been changed does not mean everything in it is false. We use the Qur'an as a criterion to decide what is true and what isn't.

So this verse I cited is in agreement with the Qur'anic belief that Prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the children of Israel.
Reply

M H Kahn
02-03-2006, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by POBook
Greetings mizan_aliashraf,

Thanks for your response.



If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?
Hi PO Book !
Islam means the act of submitting one's self by the believer to the will of Allah. The Quran has made it known that the religion of Islam (submission to the will of Allah) was preached by all the messengers of Allah in the language of the people amongst whom they were sent by Him. Islam is the natural religion of every human being. Right from the beginning of mankind's journey in this planet, every messenger of Allah has preached Islam, but misunderstanding, bias and hatred among the followers of the prophets corrupted the original messages time and again. The differences among the various peoples with regard to religion and sects are due to the tendency of revolt against the truth after it has been made known. As Allah says:

The Religion before God is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of God, God is swift in calling to account.[3:19]

Many among the people of the Book (Jews and Christians) wish they could somehow turn you back to unbelief, due to their selfish envy, after the truth has become quite clear to them. Forgive them and bear with them until Allah brings about His decision; rest assured that Allah has power over everything.[2:109]

They say: "None shall enter paradise except the one who is a Jew or a Christian." These are their vain desires. Say O Muhammad: "Let us have your proof if you are right in your claim."[2:111]

Reply

POBook
02-03-2006, 11:57 AM
Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Again, thanks for your replies.

I just explained this issue a few posts back. Belief that the Bible has been changed does not mean everything in it is false. We use the Qur'an as a criterion to decide what is true and what isn't.

So this verse I cited is in agreement with the Qur'anic belief that Prophet Jesus pbuh was sent to the children of Israel.
Please refer me to the Qur'anic verse/s that reflect the same idea as Matthew 15:24

Thanks,
Reply

POBook
02-03-2006, 12:09 PM
Hi there M H Kahn,

Thanks for your continuing dialgue. I appreciate your response but I do not think you answered the question. Allow me to ask it again:
If both the Tawrat and Injeel as well as the Qur'an were true messages sent by God, why would God choose to protect the Qur'an and not the Tawrat and the Injeel?
Thanks,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-03-2006, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Please refer me to the Qur'anic verse/s that reflect the same idea as Matthew 15:24
Qur'an 3:49 And [God] will make him [Jesus] a Messenger to the Children of Israel.
Reply

POBook
02-03-2006, 03:23 PM
Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks again for your response. I feel your expression of that verse is not quite the same, but for now, let's move on to the next verse:

Al-Qur'an, 005.044 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
  1. Did God reveal the Law to Moses?
  2. What was "guidance and light"?
  3. By which/whose standard?
  4. Am I right in reading this verse in the following way: "By it's standard have been judged the Jews, by [its standard have been judged] the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by [its standard have been judged] the rabbis and the doctors of law:"?
  5. "for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?
  6. Were the Jews, the prophets, the rabbis, and the doctors of the law the "witnesses thereto"? To what were they witnesses?
  7. "Therefore, fear not men, but fear me." In other words, "Obey my laws!"?
  8. "And sell not my signs for a miserable price." In other words, "Do not disobey the laws in order to get something you want."?
  9. "If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed,..." This light revealed by Allah, I assume is the same light revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? Allah was saying they needed to judge by the law given to them--they must not fail in judging according to this law?


Again, thanks for your feedback:) !
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-03-2006, 03:42 PM
Hello POBook,
It seems to me that you are relying solely on the Yusuf Ali translation, which does not always have the clearest phrases, causing some confusion. Sometimes the confusion can be cleared by glancing at a few other translations.

Khan-Hilali translation:
Verily, We did send down the Taurât (Torah) [to Mûsa (Moses)], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allâh's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Taurât (Torah) after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of Allâh's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers - of a lesser degree as they do not act on Allâh's Laws ).

Saheeh Int'l translation:
Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed then it is those who are the disbelievers.

Your questions...
Originally Posted by POBook
[*]Did God reveal the Law to Moses?
Yes the Tawrat was revealed to Moses.

[*]What was "guidance and light"?
The Tawrat.

[*]By which/whose standard?
The Prophets, Rabbis and scholars yahkum (Judged/ruled/legislated) the Jews according to the laws of the Tawrat.

[*]Am I right in reading this verse in the following way: "By it's standard have been judged the Jews, by [its standard have been judged] the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by [its standard have been judged] the rabbis and the doctors of law:"?
No, see above.

[*]"for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?
The Jews were given the duty to preserve the revelation of Prophet Moses pbuh, but they failed and much of the present Hebrew Bible is believed to be altered/corrupted.
[*]Were the Jews, the prophets, the rabbis, and the doctors of the law the "witnesses thereto"? To what were they witnesses?
They were witnesses to the truth of the Tawrat, and witnesses to the duty given to them to assign it, and witnesses to its corruption.
[*]"Therefore, fear not men, but fear me." In other words, "Obey my laws!"?
That would be a logical consequence of fearing God.
[*]"And sell not my signs for a miserable price." In other words, "Do not disobey the laws in order to get something you want."?
It relates to their alteration of the laws as well as their disobedience.

[*]"If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed,..." This light revealed by Allah, I assume is the same light revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? Allah was saying they needed to judge by the law given to them--they must not fail in judging according to this law?
'light' is in brackets, i.e. the words of the translator. We are to judge by whatever Allah has revealed and the Qur'an is the final revelation and criterion for that.

I hope this helps.
Reply

POBook
02-03-2006, 03:54 PM
Thanks for such a quick reply. I'm still reading your reply but I have a quick question. My Avatar and Signature were removed and I had to re-install them. Do you know how this could have happened?

Thanks,
Reply

POBook
02-03-2006, 04:00 PM
This has helped thank you. Still some clarity needed regarding one question.

Quote:
"for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book." In this context, is Allah's book this law revealed to Moses in which was guidance and light? What is meant by "protection"?
The Jews were given the duty to preserve the revelation of Prophet Moses pbuh, but they failed and much of the present Hebrew Bible is believed to be altered/corrupted.
Where in this verse does it say that the revelation was altered and corrupted?

Thanks,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-03-2006, 04:10 PM
It isn't mentioned in this specific verse.
Reply

POBook
02-04-2006, 08:51 AM
Thanks Ansar Al-'Adl,

My Avatar and Signature were removed and I had to re-install them. Do you know how this could have happened?
This time my signature has been removed. Are you able to tell me how and why this is happening:) ?
Reply

Far7an
02-04-2006, 04:08 PM
Greetings,

This time my signature has been removed. Are you able to tell me how and why this is happening:) ?
I tried to contact you via pm and email, but it seems you do not accept either. Your signature was removed as we recieved some complaints, they might seem offensive to some.
Reply

POBook
02-04-2006, 05:47 PM
Greetings Far7an,

Thanks for your reply.

I tried to contact you via pm and email, but it seems you do not accept either. Your signature was removed as we recieved some complaints, they might seem offensive to some.
I'm not quite sure what pm is and I did not receive an e-mail regarding this. Do you mind telling me what people found offensive about my sigature?

Thanks,
Reply

POBook
02-05-2006, 08:01 PM
Greetings again Ansar Al-'Adl,

Al-Qur'an, 005.045 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
"And We ordained therein for them: "Life for life , eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. And whosoever does not judge by that which God has revealed, such are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doers -- of a lesser degree)."
I hope this is the translation you were suggesting. When Allah said, "And we ordained therein for them...", can I assume he is referring to the following verses in the Torah:

  • Lev 24:20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Whatever injury he inflicted on the person, the same is to be inflicted on him.
  • Exo 21:23-24 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
  • Deu 19:21 You must not show pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, and foot for foot.
Sincerely,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-05-2006, 08:13 PM
Yes, it is referring to the Mosaic law.
Reply

POBook
02-05-2006, 08:42 PM
If he was referring to Mosaic law, was this law in tact or was he referring to corrupted law?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-05-2006, 08:44 PM
The original law; the verse says "We ordained therein for them" i.e. at the time of Prophet Moses in the Tawrat.
Reply

POBook
02-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Does this mean that the Mosaic law at the time Muhammad received his revelation, was corrupted, but God revealed to Muhammad what He had revealed in the law earlier--Muhammad was not looking at the law as it had been written but was rather hearing from God what He had written in the Torah earlier--is this your understanding?
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-05-2006, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Does this mean that the Mosaic law at the time Muhammad received his revelation, was corrupted
Not necessarily. This law was so well known that the Jews were still familiar with it and even today its still found in the Bible.
Muhammad was not looking at the law as it had been written but was rather hearing from God what He had written in the Torah earlier--is this your understanding?
God is speaking in the verses, stating that He ordained the law of retribution for the Jews. How it was recorded, or what is preserved in the Jewish scriptures, or what was implemented - none of this is being discussed here. Only that God ordained for them the law of retribution.
Reply

POBook
02-09-2006, 02:04 PM
Greetings to you Ansar Al-'Adl,

I am back in town. I sent you a message to find out if my new signature would be offensive. Please give me some feedback on this. Thanks also for your reply to my previous question. On to the next:

Al-Qur'an, 005.046 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)[], confirming the Taurât (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurât (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).
1. In whose footsteps?
2. What is meant by "confirming the Taurat that had come before him"?
3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?

Concerning ? 2:
In your previous reply you said:
This law was so well known that the Jews were still familiar with it and even today it's still found in the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 8:3 we read,
"He humbled you by letting you go hungry; then He gave you manna to eat, which you and your fathers had not known, so that you might learn that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD."
In Deuteronomy 6:13 we read,
"Fear the Lord your God and serve Him only and take your oaths in His name."
In Deuteronomy 6:16 we read,
"Do not test the Lord your God as you did at Massah."

These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?

Sincerely and thanks again for your continuing dialogue,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-09-2006, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Greetings to you Ansar Al-'Adl,

I am back in town. I sent you a message to find out if my new signature would be offensive. Please give me some feedback on this. Thanks also for your reply to my previous question.
Hi POBook,
You're better off not using a depiction of Jesus, not only because Muslims will not appreciate it, but also because of the simple fact that Jesus was not a white american. If that is not supposed to be Jesus in your signature, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

1. In whose footsteps?
In the footsteps of previous prophets.
2. What is meant by "confirming the Taurat that had come before him"?
He confirmed that it was a true revelation from God.
3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?
The pious people of his nation.

These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?
The answer is the same for the entire Bible - the Qur'an is the criterion.

Regards
Reply

POBook
02-10-2006, 08:33 AM
Hi there Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks very much for your feedback regarding my signature. I have once again made some changes to it. I know we are different in our beliefs. At the same time, we are very much the same in the strength of our beliefs. I truly want to be strong in my faith, belief, and witness but at the same time, be sincerely respectful of Muslims.

If that is not supposed to be Jesus in your signature, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
It is a depiction or picture of the actor who portrayed the life of Jesus according to Luke's gospel in the "Jesus" film. Even if it wasn't, please, you never have to apologize...we all make mistakes...including me.

"...the simple fact that Jesus was not a white american."
Based on many of my false assumptions in the past (and probably still today:rollseyes ), my Dad always told me, "assumptions are dangerous". The actor in the Jesus film was not a white American. The role of Jesus was played by British Shakespearean actor Brian Deacon. I also think it is important to understand that these actors in the "Jesus" film were selected to be the best possible depictions of the people in Jesus' time. Jesus was a Hebrew speaking Jew. As such, He was what we might depict as a "white" person. To me, skin color is not the issue. Character is the issue.

Quote:
3. Who were the Al-Muttaqun (the pious)?
The pious people of his nation.
Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?

Quote:
These commands as found in the Torah of today's Bible are accurate and true to how they were first given to the Jews. Now, In Luke's Gospel chapter 4:4, 8, and 12 Jesus quotes these verses from the Torah--almost word-for-word. Yes, the Jews knew the Torah very well. In addition to this, the oldest copies of the Torah that we have were copies made more than 100 years before Jesus Christ. The Jews had the Torah in both oral form and in written form during the time of Jesus. This is my question: Which parts of Luke 4:1-13 are corrupted and which parts are not corrupted?
The answer is the same for the entire Bible - the Qur'an is the criterion.
Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?
Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Again, thanks for your dialogue. I appreciated the message you posted in the thread, Interfaith Dialogue, Discussing Religion with the People of the Scripture.

Sincerely,
Reply

POBook
02-10-2006, 09:00 AM
Al-Qur'an, 005.047 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh.
  • Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
  • If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
  • Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

Sincerely and thanks,
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
I truly want to be strong in my faith, belief, and witness but at the same time, be sincerely respectful of Muslims.
Thank you for your consideration :)

Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?
I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. They were primarily his disciples.

Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?
Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?
First thing to do is discuss what the obvious meaning of these verses is. If the verse is consistent with the Qur'an's message then it is possible that it is true.
I appreciated the message you posted in the thread, Interfaith Dialogue, Discussing Religion with the People of the Scripture.
That's very good to hear. :) The website from that article was taken is http://www.islamtoday.com

Let the people of the Injeel (Gospel) judge by what Allâh has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (the rebellious i.e. disobedient (of a lesser degree) to Allâh.
For some reason I thought we had already discussed this verse, but whatever the case I'll go over it.
Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
The message being emphasized here is that if the people of the Injeel used studied their revelation they would find that it is confirmed by the Qur'an and the essential message of both books is the same. If they judged the truth on the basis of their revelation they would realize the validity of Muhammad's Prophethood and the Qur'an as God's final message to mankind.

If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?
They themselves knew that their scriptures had not been perfectly preserved, but so long as they studied the essential message of Jesus himself as recorded in their scriptures they would recognize the truth of Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I hope this helps.
Reply

QURBAN
02-11-2006, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by POBook
Al-Qur'an, 005.047 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])


  • Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
  • If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
  • Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?

Sincerely and thanks,
In The Name Of Allah The Most Beneficient and the Most Merciful

Kind Regards

The verse means people at the time of Jesus will be judged by what Allah has revealed the corruption is NOT what Allah has revealed
Reply

POBook
02-11-2006, 01:55 PM
Greetings Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thanks for the response:) .

Quote:
Who were considered to be the pious people of His nation at the time?
I'm not sure how you want me to answer this. They were primarily his disciples.
I was just wanting to know if the pious people were Jews, Christians, Greeks...who?

Quote:
Forgive me, but I don't understand your answer here. I know what you mean when you say that the Qur'an is the criterion. How is the Qur'an the criterion for this passage of Scripture? For eg:

Luk 4:4 But Jesus answered him, "It is written: Man must not live on bread alone."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it's true, where is it in the Qur'an?

Luk 4:5 So he took Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."
Is this verse corrupt or true? If it is true, where is it in the Qur'an?
First thing to do is discuss what the obvious meaning of these verses is. If the verse is consistent with the Qur'an's message then it is possible that it is true.
I'm not really wanting to discuss the meaning of these verses right now or their connection to the Qur'an. These verses can be found in the Torah which is accepted as True. They are also found in the gospel of Luke. My question again, is are they corrupt or true and accurate as verses found in the Gospel of Luke?

Quote:
Why did Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel (Gospel) to judge by what Allah had revealed therein?
The message being emphasized here is that if the people of the Injeel used studied their revelation they would find that it is confirmed by the Qur'an and the essential message of both books is the same.
What Injeel was being used; what revelation was needing to be studied by these people?

Quote:
If Muhammad encouraged the people of the Injeel to judge by what was in the Injeel, was the Injeel during the time of Muhammad not in tact?
Why would Muhammad encourage the people of the Injeel to judge by something that contained corruption?
They themselves knew that their scriptures had not been perfectly preserved,...
How do we know that they knew their Scriptures had not been perfectly preserved?

Sincerely and with thanks,
Reply

POBook
02-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Greetings Again:) ,

Al-Qur'an, 005.048 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])
And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur'ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohayminan (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge between them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so strive as in a race in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.
1. What is meant by "judge between them by what Allah has revealed"?
2. Follow not whose vain desires?
3. Conerning "To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way": Is it it correct to say, "To you Jews and Christians, We have prescribed a law and a clear way; to you Muslims We have prescribed a law and a clear way"?
4. "If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation..." Is He saying that if Allah willed, He would have made Jews, Christians, and Muslims one nation (ie. three in one...:okay: :) ) in the sense that they would be neither of these three individual groups, but rather one large common group?
5. "But that He may test you in what He has given you" Is this that Allah would test the Jews in what He had given them--the Torah; the Christians in what He had given them--the Injeel; the Muslims in what He had given them--the Qur'an.
6. "Then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ." Was this in reference to the differences in revelation and application between the Torah, Injeel, and Qur'an?

Sincerely,
PS: I hope you did not mind me expressing a little sense of humor above with the three in one--we have dialogued on that issue much.
Reply

Abu Zakariya
02-11-2006, 07:01 PM
I thought I'd interfere here and quote an answer to one of my questions to the IslamToday team:

Allah knows best the degree of corruption in the Bible.



However, in another hadîth, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whatever the People of the Book tell you, neither believe them nor deny what they say, but rather say: ‘I believe in Allah and His Messengers.’ For if it is something false, you will not be believing it, and if it is something true, you will not be denying it.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd (3644) and Musnad Ahmad (16597)]



Al-Tabarî relates in his Tafsîr from Ibn `Abbâs the context in which this verse was revealed:



Râfi` b. Hârithah, Salâm b. Mishkum, Mâlik b. al-Sayf, and Râfi` b. Huraymilah approached Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) and said: “O Muhammad! Don’t you claim to be from the community and faith of Abraham and to believe in the Torah that we possess and witness that it is the truth from Allah?”



Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) replied: “Certainly. However you introduced to it new things and disputed what it contains of the covenant that was taken upon you. You concealed of it what you were supposed to convey to the people. I am innocent of the new things that you have contrived.”



They said: “Then we will keep to what our hands possess, for indeed, we are upon the truth. We do not believe in you and will not follow you.”



Thereupon, Allah revealed: “Say: ‘O People of the Scripture! You are upon nothing until you observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed to you from your Lord.’ That which is revealed unto you (O Muhammad) from your Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 68]



This is also related by Ibn Abî Hâtim in his Tafsîr.



And Allah knows best.
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