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NoahideHiker
03-30-2005, 01:40 AM
I'm often confronted with misunderstandings and misstatements from non Muslims and as a non Muslim I decided it was high time to get my own mind right and understand the issues. I asked a person exactly what he fouind objectionable about the Quran and then did my own rtesearch at --- and gave this reply. Is there anything anyone can add? Is there anything that needs clarified or changed? Have I gotten anything wrong? As someone who follows Judaism as a Gentile I feel it is of the uttmost importance to be sure we are fully aware of what we say about others and to be respectful and correct. The rest of the conversation was a visious argument and in the end I was called a Muslim loving dog. And it is a bad thing to love others? that's when I got banned. :)

Enjoy and offer what ever you can...His words are in bold and mine follow the asteric marked scripture.



"I’m not sure exactly what version of the Quran you are using but it seems to be a bit off. I have given the verses from the Quran I have at my disposal.

The Dinner Table:

[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

**[5:33] The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.

Is this so different than when the Jews are commanded to fight their aggressors? The very next verse says:

[5:34] Exempted are those who repent before you overcome them. You should know that GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.



[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

**[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

We must look at WHICH Jews and Christians are being talked about. The next verse tells us exactly which people are being talked about…

[5:52] You will see those who harbor doubt in their hearts hasten to join them, saying, "We fear lest we may be defeated." May GOD bring victory, or a command from Him, that causes them to regret their secret thoughts.

It is those who take their religion for no other reason than being defeated. It goes on to say in verse 57...

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

Is this not also a good thing for Chrsitians and Jews to do?



The Assentions:

[8.65] O Prophet! URGE THE BELIEVERS (muslims) TO WAR; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

**[8:65] O you prophet, you shall exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty of you who are steadfast, they can defeat two hundred, and a hundred of you can defeat a thousand of those who disbelieved. That is because they are people who do not understand.

Is this so different than Jews who fight against their enemies?


The Cow:

[2.190 ] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

**[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.
[2:193] You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.

They are commanded to fight those who attack them and ONLY as vigorously as they are attacked and ONLY if they are attacked or oppressed from worshipping G-d. The Jews did this many times. Verse 194 goes on to validate the measure that they are allowed to attack their aggressors…

[2:194] During the Sacred Months, aggression may be met by an equivalent response. If they attack you, you may retaliate by inflicting an equitable retribution. You shall observe GOD and know that GOD is with the righteous.

Moreover you jumped from verse 191 straight to verse 193 and left out a very important point in verse 192...
[2:192] If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.


The Women:

[4.89] They (christians and Jews) desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and KILL THEM wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper
.

**[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

Here you have embellished the text by inserting Christians and Jews. Who exactly is being spoken of here? The verse just before 4:89 shows us who is being talked about…

**[4:88] Why should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.

“…hypocrites (among you)…” It’s speaking of the hypocrites among the Muslims and doesn’t even apply to the Christians or Jews specifically.

The Immunity:

[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely allah is forgiving, merciful.


**[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

What’s the punishment for idolatry in Judaism? Death maybe? Same goes for Islam. The very next verse shows us that there are exceptions to the wholesale slaughter of idol worshippers…

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

It is saying if the person asks for safe passage you give it to them because they simply don’t know any better.

[9.14] FIGHT THEM, ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

**[9:14] You shall fight them, for GOD will punish them at your hands, humiliate them, grant you victory over them, and cool the chests of the believers.

Again, who is “Them” and why is the command to kill them? We must look at the three verses prior to the one site…

[9:11] If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), then they are your brethren in religion. We thus explain the revelations for people who know.

So if they pray and give to charity they are safe? This is hardly whole sale slaughter.

[9:12] If they violate their oaths after pledging to keep their covenants, and attack your religion, you may fight the leaders of paganism - you are no longer bound by your covenant with them - that they may refrain.
[9:13] Would you not fight people who violated their treaties, tried to banish the messenger, and they are the ones who started the war in the first place? Are you afraid of them? GOD is the One you are supposed to fear, if you are believers.


Ah OK, so it is the treaty breakers that are to fought against. This doesn’t seem so out of line then.

[9.30 ] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah (Jesus) is the son of allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; MAY ALLAH DESTROY THEM; how they are turned away!

**[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

Verse 31 shows us what the context is of verse 30...

[9:31] They have set up their religious leaders and scholars as lords, instead of GOD. Others deified the Messiah, son of Mary. They were all commanded to worship only one god. There is no god except He. Be He glorified, high above having any partners.

This is saying to not follow anyone but G-d and G-d alone. Do not place your sages (in this case Ezra) or messiahs (Jesus) before G-d. Judaism says the same thing.

As with any religious text you can’t have your cake and eat it too by picking and choosing which parts to follow. The laws of war are very clear in Islam…


**[2:190] You may fight in the cause of GOD against those who attack you, but do not aggress. GOD does not love the aggressors.

**[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
[60:9] GOD enjoins you only from befriending those who fight you because of religion, evict you from your homes, and band together with others to banish you. You shall not befriend them. …


**[8:61] If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.

Islam is very simple when you look at the core of the faith…

**[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

Not only does the Quran teach that Muslims are to be equitably kind to people of other faiths but it also tells that they are to befriend peaceful people of all faiths…

**[60:8] GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-30-2005, 01:58 AM
I am impressed, Br. Noahide. You have done a fairly good job of researching and explaining a religion that is foreign to you. Your tolerance and sense of justice is commendable. :) I think if we all defend eachother we will be much stronger.

The following article clarifies this issue:
http://www.load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Misquoted
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swanlake
09-26-2005, 12:13 PM
:sl:

Can i say that in msg 1 on this thread, the website --------------- is a Submitter website. A Non-Islamic one.
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Halima
12-16-2005, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by swanlake
:sl:

Can i say that in msg 1 on this thread, the website --------------- is a Submitter website. A Non-Islamic one.

Yeah some people have to be vigilant as to where they get their rescources from. What I see occuring most often is that they might go to any 'islamic' website to justify their arguments and their rescources are sometimes apparently corrupted. They should be aware that they should not just go to any website whereas they think that it's not corrupted or that it is authentic. Who knows, it may be a corrupted ayah or surah they have posted. This can be mis-leading to th other members that are reading the evidence that the person had presented in the first place.
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Danish
12-21-2005, 11:27 AM
:sl:
any chance u can summarise the article? :( i am very lazy :(
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