1000 Iraqi children in U.S. prisons in Iraq

[radwan21]

US occupation troops are holding about 1000 children and teenagers in a military prison at a Baghdad base, some as young as 10, a top commander said Monday.

Brigadier General Michael Nevin of US military police said many of these youngsters, mainly 15, 16 or 17 years of age are illiterate and have been detained for "planting bombs and even for picking up a gun and firefighting."

The juveniles are being held in Camp Cropper near Baghdad airport and are part of the nearly 26,000 detainees held by the US military across Iraq.
But these youngsters, dressed in red jumpsuits, make up almost 25 percent of the 4,000 detainees held at Camp Cropper in Baghdad.

The US military currently holds detainees in two prisons in Iraq, Camp Cropper and Camp Bucca in the southern port city of Basra. Camp Bucca holds most of the detainees.

"These juveniles have been involved in something that is a perceived as a security threat to Iraq or coalition forces," Nevin told AFP during a tour of Camp Cropper.

The number of juvenile detainees has skyrocketed since the so-called surge in US occupation troops was launched in February.

Most of the youngsters have been "sucked into the insurgency with threats or offers of money from Al-Qaeda", he said.

One of the commanders at Camp Cropper, Lieutenant Colonel Malcolm McMullen, said the juveniles were now part of a wide-ranging educational programme launched by the military.

Source: AFP

[truemuslim]

"planting bombs and even for picking up a gun and firefighting."

^^^ lets not fforget they at WAR... defending is a must...

ur kiddin me right? thats so dumb... oook im done

[Cognescenti]

May we see the source, please? Simply stating "AFP" is not sufficient.

At first blush, the title of the thread is deliberately misleading.

BTW...how old was what's her name...............?

[someone...]

source please? man, thats just wrong

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[Ali.]

^^^ lets not fforget they at WAR... defending is a must...

ur kiddin me right? thats so dumb... oook im done

Yeah what she said.

Grr this angers me so much...:raging:

[truemuslim]

this reminds me of the other thread '16yr old grl in hands of FBI from NYC' ...thats just sad how dumb things are these days

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Thats so odd story! :mmokay: I would like to see the source of that.

[guyabano]

... said the juveniles were now part of a wide-ranging educational programme launched by the military.

and besides, isn't that good? Pulling young juveniles away from the streets and give them an education?

Peace

[krypton6]

I really dont care as long as they are treated nicely inside the prison, as long as they have all reached puberty and as long as they are all boys.

[truemuslim]

^ DOUBT IT... it sthe u.s. prison we talkin bout here :w:

[krypton6]

Well in america the prison inmates are treated very nicely, I just hope that those children are treated in the same way, if not then death is what the guards deserve.

[truemuslim]

^ lol yeah... if not..DEATH exactly








p.s. can i do the fun honor? ... jk

[krypton6]

^^ NO its my turn now!

[krypton6]

.............................

[MTAFFI]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

US says al-Qaida in Iraq using children By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer
8 minutes ago



BAGHDAD - Videotapes seized during U.S. raids on suspected al-Qaida in Iraq hide-outs show the terror group training young boys to kidnap and assassinate civilians, U.S. and Iraqi officials said Wednesday.

Footage aired for reporters showed an apparent training operation with black-masked boys — some of whom appeared to be about 10 years old — storming a house and holding guns to the heads of mock residents. Another tape showed a young boy wearing a suicide vest and posing with automatic weapons.

But U.S. and Iraqi officials said they could offer no estimate on how many children have fallen under the terror group's control. They named just a handful of attacks blamed on women or children.

The American military said some of the tapes were found in December during a U.S. raid in Khan Bani Saad, northeast of Baghdad, and said it indicated a pattern that al-Qaida in Iraq was increasingly using children for sinister means.

"Al-Qaida in Iraq wants to poison the next generation of Iraqis," Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a U.S. military spokesman, told reporters Wednesday inside the heavily guarded Green Zone. "It is offering children as the new generation of mujahedeen," he said, using the Arabic term for holy warriors.

"We believe this video is used as propaganda to send out to recruit other boys ... and to send a broader message across Iraq to indoctrinate youth into al-Qaida," he said.

Other scenes from the Khan Bani Saad video showed masked boys forcing a man off his bicycle at gunpoint and stopping a car and kidnapping its driver along a dusty country road. At one point the boys — wearing soccer jerseys with ammunition slung across their chests — sit in a circle on the floor, chanting slogans in support of al-Qaida.

Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman Mohammed al-Askari told reporters that militants are kidnapping more and more Iraqi children, though he could not offer details or numbers.

"This is not only to recruit them, but also to demand ransom to fund the operations of al-Qaida," al-Askari said.

Meanwhile, the U.S. military said Wednesday that its troops, along with Iraqi forces, killed seven suspected insurgents and detained 45 others in five days of raids across Iraq.

Also Wednesday, a roadside bomb exploded near a police convoy transporting suspected Shiite militia fighters south of Baghdad, killing four passers-by and wounding nine other people, police said. At least 19 people were killed or found dead Wednesday across the country.

The roadside bombing was an apparent attempt to free the 10 detainees who were linked to the Mahdi Army militia that is nominally loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, according to police Brig. Gen. Ghassan Mohammed Ali.

He said the detainees had been captured over the past month and had been accused of attacking civilians and U.S. and Iraqi security forces in the city.

The bomb went off in Diwaniyah, 80 miles south of Baghdad, where there have been fierce clashes between rival Shiite militia factions engaged in a violent power struggle in the oil-rich area.

Two women and two men in a car near the explosion were killed, and nine other people — two policemen, three prisoners and four civilians — were wounded, Ali said.

Al-Sadr has ordered his militia to stand in a six-month cease-fire that expires at the end of February, but the U.S. military says disaffected fighters have broken with the movement and persisted with attacks.

Iraqi security forces in the area also are often accused of being infiltrated by militia fighters, particularly from the Badr Brigade, the militant arm of the largest Shiite party, the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, or SIIC.

JUST SHOWS HOW SICK AND DESPERATE THEY ARE, IMO

[S_87]

mtaffi- who is al qaeda according to you? :)

[krypton6]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080206/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

US says al-Qaida in Iraq using children By LAUREN FRAYER, Associated Press Writer
8 minutes ago



BAGHDAD - Videotapes seized during U.S. raids on suspected al-Qaida in Iraq hide-outs show the terror group training young boys to kidnap and assassinate civilians, U.S. and Iraqi officials said Wednesday.

Footage aired for reporters showed an apparent training operation with black-masked boys — some of whom appeared to be about 10 years old — storming a house and holding guns to the heads of mock residents. Another tape showed a young boy wearing a suicide vest and posing with automatic weapons.

But U.S. and Iraqi officials said they could offer no estimate on how many children have fallen under the terror group's control. They named just a handful of attacks blamed on women or children.

The American military said some of the tapes were found in December during a U.S. raid in Khan Bani Saad, northeast of Baghdad, and said it indicated a pattern that al-Qaida in Iraq was increasingly using children for sinister means.

"Al-Qaida in Iraq wants to poison the next generation of Iraqis," Rear Adm. Gregory Smith, a U.S. military spokesman, told reporters Wednesday inside the heavily guarded Green Zone. "It is offering children as the new generation of mujahedeen," he said, using the Arabic term for holy warriors.

"We believe this video is used as propaganda to send out to recruit other boys ... and to send a broader message across Iraq to indoctrinate youth into al-Qaida," he said.

Other scenes from the Khan Bani Saad video showed masked boys forcing a man off his bicycle at gunpoint and stopping a car and kidnapping its driver along a dusty country road. At one point the boys — wearing soccer jerseys with ammunition slung across their chests — sit in a circle on the floor, chanting slogans in support of al-Qaida.

Iraqi Defense Ministry spokesman Mohammed al-Askari told reporters that militants are kidnapping more and more Iraqi children, though he could not offer details or numbers.

"This is not only to recruit them, but also to demand ransom to fund the operations of al-Qaida," al-Askari said.

Meanwhile, the U.S. military said Wednesday that its troops, along with Iraqi forces, killed seven suspected insurgents and detained 45 others in five days of raids across Iraq.

Also Wednesday, a roadside bomb exploded near a police convoy transporting suspected Shiite militia fighters south of Baghdad, killing four passers-by and wounding nine other people, police said. At least 19 people were killed or found dead Wednesday across the country.

The roadside bombing was an apparent attempt to free the 10 detainees who were linked to the Mahdi Army militia that is nominally loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, according to police Brig. Gen. Ghassan Mohammed Ali.

He said the detainees had been captured over the past month and had been accused of attacking civilians and U.S. and Iraqi security forces in the city.

The bomb went off in Diwaniyah, 80 miles south of Baghdad, where there have been fierce clashes between rival Shiite militia factions engaged in a violent power struggle in the oil-rich area.

Two women and two men in a car near the explosion were killed, and nine other people — two policemen, three prisoners and four civilians — were wounded, Ali said.

Al-Sadr has ordered his militia to stand in a six-month cease-fire that expires at the end of February, but the U.S. military says disaffected fighters have broken with the movement and persisted with attacks.

Iraqi security forces in the area also are often accused of being infiltrated by militia fighters, particularly from the Badr Brigade, the militant arm of the largest Shiite party, the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, or SIIC.

JUST SHOWS HOW SICK AND DESPERATE THEY ARE, IMO

Go on blame al-Qaida as usually, but where's the evidence?

[Keltoi]

It doesn't matter whether its "al-qaeda" or not, it is what they do that matters. Zarqawi was the leader of this group before his death, and he called it Al-Qaeda in Iraq. Perhaps now that he is dead that group no longer exists, but I wouldn't count on it.

[MTAFFI]

mtaffi- who is al qaeda according to you? :)

who or what? More of an idea than an individual... I dont wish to deny fact.. they blow up civilians (against the teaching of Islam), the kill women and children and non combatants (against the teaching of Islam), they oppress (against the teaching of Islam) and they torture (again against the teaching of Islam).. I could go on but I think the point I am trying to get across is there... What is worse? They claim to be operating according to our religion :(


So who is al qaeda, well it just so happens I have a picture of him right here

Krypton:
The evidence is the video tapes mentioned in the first sentence, did you even read?:hmm:

[truemuslim]

lol watd u do to barney u lil devil...loljk

[krypton6]

who or what? More of an idea than an individual... I dont wish to deny fact.. they blow up civilians (against the teaching of Islam), the kill women and children and non combatants (against the teaching of Islam), they oppress (against the teaching of Islam) and they torture (again against the teaching of Islam).. I could go on but I think the point I am trying to get across is there... What is worse? They claim to be operating according to our religion :(

al-Qaida have always avoided killing civilians and as far as I know and as far as what is confirmed and recognized by both the east and west, they have in fact never killed any civilians!

al-Qaida have always avoided killing woman, and especially children, they only do so when they have no other choice. They kill some in order to save the lives of many others!
But again: as far as what has bin recognized and confirmed by both the east and west, al-Qaida have never deliberately killed any civilian woman! Children were probably killed in 9/11, but under no circumenstances did al-Qaida deliberately kill children, they cannot chose between who to kill and who not to kill!

al-Qaida have never tortured anyone!

Bin Laden have never claimed to be fighting in the name of god or in the name of Islam! He is only trying to defend his people, religion and country!

Krypton:
The evidence is the video tapes mentioned in the first sentence, did you even read?:hmm:

At what point was al-Qaida mentioned in the video? The video shows a bunch of children holding automatic rifles while runing around. How can you know that these children are in fact fighting in real combat? How can you blaim al-Qaida knowing that they have yet in no way taken responsibility for this video.

Do you really believe the marines when they say that this was found in a al-Qaida building? Can you tell me how to point out a al-Qaida building in the middle of a city?

and your a muslim right!

[Cognescenti]

You know....we still dont have a source for the title post. Did the CIA shut down the site or something?

[MTAFFI]

al-Qaida have always avoided killing civilians and as far as I know and as far as what is confirmed and recognized by both the east and west, they have in fact never killed any civilians!

al-Qaida have always avoided killing woman, and especially children, they only do so when they have no other choice. They kill some in order to save the lives of many others!
But again: as far as what has bin recognized and confirmed by both the east and west, al-Qaida have never deliberately killed any civilian woman! Children were probably killed in 9/11, but under no circumenstances did al-Qaida deliberately kill children, they cannot chose between who to kill and who not to kill!

al-Qaida have never tortured anyone!

Are you serious? How about Al-Qaeda in Iraq, formerly run by the late Zarqawi? Just a week or two ago they found houses smattered with blood on the inside with wire bed frames attached to car batteries... How about the countless women and children killed in markets by suicide blasts, etc? You seem to be in denial my friend

Bin Laden have never claimed to be fighting in the name of god or in the name of Islam! He is only trying to defend his people, religion and country!

He calls for Muslims to carry out Jihad against his enemies... Jihad is a term used in the quran and as far as I know is a term used exclusively within the Islamic faith. Is he calling for an internal or external struggle? If external he is asking people to fight in the name of God for his cause. Below is a one of many of these calls

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc...tml#cnnSTCText

At what point was al-Qaida mentioned in the video? The video shows a bunch of children holding automatic rifles while runing around. How can you know that these children are in fact fighting in real combat? How can you blaim al-Qaida knowing that they have yet in no way taken responsibility for this video.

Do you really believe the marines when they say that this was found in a al-Qaida building? Can you tell me how to point out a al-Qaida building in the middle of a city?

You have a right to your opinion, if you wish to be ignorant to the facts then that is your choice, but I do not find it wise. Just because they claim to be a Muslim group shouldnt give them upper hand in the muslim community. If they do not act within the boundaries of Islam, I do not support them or their actions, and in fact I condemn them. Support them if you wish, Allah will judge us all in the end.

and your a muslim right!

100%.... are you?

[krypton6]

Just a week or two ago they found houses smattered with blood on the inside with wire bed frames attached to car batteries... How about the countless women and children killed in markets by suicide blasts, etc? You seem to be in denial my friend.

And how one earth do you know that al-Qaida are the ones to blaim for this kind of torture?

al-Qaida never attacks civilians in Iraq! The suicide bombs and bomb blasts are all done by shia millits and a few sunni. Bin Laden's main goal in order to defeat america in Iraq, is to unite the shias and the sunnis! In every single one of his videos, Bin Laden is asking the sunnis and shias to unite and fight the real enemies instead of fighting each other, why on earth would he attack them himselve?

al-Qaida have never taken the responsebility for a bomb blast in the middle of a Iraqi street, yet you blaim them for it? al-Qaida is known to be proud of what they do, if they blow a bomb, they will make shure that everyone knows that they stood behind it, why on earth would they hide it now?

He calls for Muslims to carry out Jihad against his enemies... Jihad is a term used in the quran and as far as I know is a term used exclusively within the Islamic faith. Is he calling for an internal or external struggle? If external he is asking people to fight in the name of God for his cause. Below is a one of many of these calls.

Jihad has bin interpreted in many ways.

Dr. Zakir Naik believes that the meaning of Jihad is "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society", improve one's self both religiously and socially. The "to struggle to improve one's self and/or society" (both religiously and socially) is the interpretation that most islamic schoolars believe to be the right one, schoolars such as Yusuf Al-Qaradawi.

You have a right to your opinion, if you wish to be ignorant to the facts then that is your choice, but I do not find it wise. Just because they claim to be a Muslim group shouldnt give them upper hand in the muslim community. If they do not act within the boundaries of Islam, I do not support them or their actions, and in fact I condemn them. Support them if you wish, Allah will judge us all in the end.

I am not ignorant, I just dont believe in the "facts" given by the same people who kill my people. Unlike you who live on the other side of the globe where you are being told only what your government wants you to know, I have actually bin there and seen it for myself, and my father is there witnessing it everyday.

I dont care if they are muslim, jewish or christian, white, black, or purple, as long as they act within the boundaries of this world and my religion.

I am against al-Qaida because they kill armed and unarmed people, not because of the "civilians" that they have killed.

and america calls the al-Qaida recruits brainwashed hmm.....

[MTAFFI]

...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ it wasnt deleted, the forum crashed, posts and reps from 3 days are gone.

[krypton6]

They admit to it regularly

How, when and where did they admit it?

And how much control does OBL have in Iraq?? Shia and Sunni are uniting in Iraq, on the side of the US soldiers, because they see what al-qaeda brought to their country. Take a look at the Taliban, they even told Al-qaeda months back that they dont want them in their country and they dont want their help because of their tactics. Face it, al-qaeda is an ugly spot on the history of mankind and they account for 99% of the propoganda against the islamic faith.

Sunni's and shias are uniting in Iraq? Since your people came into Iraq sunni's and shias have bin killing each other and hundreds of conflicts have rised, all because of what your people brought to Iraq! Since 2003 they have in no way shown any sort of uniting behavior, EVER! In fact it is only a few sunni and shia millits that have united themselves and decided to fight america as iraqi's instead of shias and sunnis!

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...199403937.html

"The claim could not be independently verified, but US occupation authorities in Iraq regularly blame foreign fighters affiliated to Al-Qaeda for the ongoing violence in the country"

al-Qaida only use official spokesmen, they do not use a supposedly al-Qaida trainer and recruiter when they try to spread a message! That's why they have spokesmen, they have recruiters, they have trainers, and they have fighters, when they take the responsiblity for a attack they use a known spokesman not a recruiter or trainer. The newspaper company happends to be owned by The House of Saud, wow what a suprise! Wouldnt suprise me if they made all this up!

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...ACFB6D8F1F.htm

"A North African group aligned to the al-Qaeda"

You can always link a group to al-Qaida, you can even link al-Qaida to america! Islamic Magreb is not al-Qaida, they might be militarily supported by al-Qaida but that does not make them al-Qaida. America supported al-Qaida, but that did not make them al-Qaida!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/2061071.stm

The synagogue was a israeli owned and the people people who died were tourists who had payed to come inside the synagogue, money that would be given to the israeli government.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...tml#cnnSTCText

al-Qaida was not mentioned in this.

If you really want to blaim al-Qaida for something then you should blaim them for not understanding the american "allied" sunni's.

ahhh but you believe the "facts" given by those who use suicide bombing as a war tactic, and tell their followers that heaven awaits them even though the Quran and every other holy book very clearly states that the consequence for such an action is eternal condemnation.... hmm you might want to reconsider, just an opinion though.

I believe in the facts given by the people who knows it best. The "people" use suicide bombing as a war tactic because they have no other alternative, they are not rich, they dont have thousands of troops, and suicide bombing happends to be what is most effective and easy for them to execute.
In Islam you can fight under two circumenstances, one of them is in self-defence, what al-qaida is doing is PURELY self-defence!

American troops may not be a model for what is right and wrong since every batch has a bad apple, and I am not saying that they act at all within the boundaries of all that is moral. (teasing kids and so on) But for the most part they are trying to improve Iraq for the Iraqis, you can think whatever you want though.

For the most part they are torturing the iraqis. I've bin in Iraq and never have I heard some iraqi thanking the americans. I've bin in the old Iraq, and it was much safer and better than the current Iraq. Nothing has bin improved for the iraqi's, NOTHING! Not only are the marines teasing kids but they are also shooting kids! When you ask a marine why he is in Iraq he will respond with the famous and stupid respond: "to serve and protect my country", he will not respond with what it should be which is "to help the iraqi's".

Every batch has its bad apple, and when a bad apple is found you throw it out. When a bad soldier is found he should be punished fairly, but that is not the reality! Marines that have deliberately killed iraqi's get a sentence equal to bank robbing in america or armed robbery! Some are not even punished!

I have some friends who were in the war in Iraq and one of their main objectives is to show the people they are not there to harm them but to help them. You think the US media propoganda is bad you should see what al-qaeda passes around. It is just whatever though, you will believe what you will believe, who am I to tell you different. I do think you are wrong though and I do think you need to look at all the facts rather than what you want to hear.

Isnt it america's own responsibility to make shure that no bad soldiers are send out to foreign nations? They should at least punish the bad soldiers and prove for the iraqi's that they are in fact in Iraq to help the people and not to imperialize their nation and harm them.

Bush's plan was to invade Iraq and leave behind a dictator that would do anything that america tells him to do. The plan has never bin to help the people, if america wants to help the people perhaps they should start by removing the dictators that they have left behind from their ealier invasions.

[MTAFFI]

^ it wasnt deleted, the forum crashed, posts and reps from 3 days are gone.

ohhhh.... :embarrass

[MTAFFI]

How, when and where did they admit it?

Do a simple Google, yahoo, cnn, al-jazeera search, very easy to find

Sunni's and shias are uniting in Iraq? Since your people came into Iraq sunni's and shias have bin killing each other and hundreds of conflicts have rised, all because of what your people brought to Iraq! Since 2003 they have in no way shown any sort of uniting behavior, EVER! In fact it is only a few sunni and shia millits that have united themselves and decided to fight america as iraqi's instead of shias and sunnis!

Right, the US removes a dictator, and sectarian violence breaks out... you will notice though that the first few months there (before al-qaeda started arriving) there was a relative calm, perhaps Al-qaeda or the groups that spawned off of them are responsible, did that ever cross your mind?

"The claim could not be independently verified, but US occupation authorities in Iraq regularly blame foreign fighters affiliated to Al-Qaeda for the ongoing violence in the country"

al-Qaida only use official spokesmen, they do not use a supposedly al-Qaida trainer and recruiter when they try to spread a message! That's why they have spokesmen, they have recruiters, they have trainers, and they have fighters, when they take the responsiblity for a attack they use a known spokesman not a recruiter or trainer. The newspaper company happends to be owned by The House of Saud, wow what a suprise! Wouldnt suprise me if they made all this up!

Of course it is made up, everything is just made up, really al-qaeda just wants to go back to picking flowers or not existing at all and just live in peace with the rest of the world....

"A North African group aligned to the al-Qaeda"

You can always link a group to al-Qaida, you can even link al-Qaida to america! Islamic Magreb is not al-Qaida, they might be militarily supported by al-Qaida but that does not make them al-Qaida. America supported al-Qaida, but that did not make them al-Qaida!

Ahh, here we are again, they are supported by al-qaeda but that doesnt make them al-qaeda huh? Well then apply that logic to israel and the US, oh wait that doesnt suit your cause does it?

The synagogue was a israeli owned and the people people who died were tourists who had payed to come inside the synagogue, money that would be given to the israeli government.

Right, so desecrating or blowing up houses of worship is all of a sudden an acceptable tactic? No, not in Islam it isnt, it is actually strictly forbidden. Not to mention the people were innocent

al-Qaida was not mentioned in this.

my apologies, who do you think is responsible, i am sure no one affiliated with them though right?

If you really want to blaim al-Qaida for something then you should blaim them for not understanding the american "allied" sunni's.

It isnt their country, so the sunni's dont need them to understand anything

I believe in the facts given by the people who knows it best. The "people" use suicide bombing as a war tactic because they have no other alternative, they are not rich, they dont have thousands of troops, and suicide bombing happends to be what is most effective and easy for them to execute.
In Islam you can fight under two circumenstances, one of them is in self-defence, what al-qaida is doing is PURELY self-defence!

Right, so 9/11 was self defense? The countless bombings on embassies, etc are self defense? No not really, more of a move to bring the US to middle eastern ground to fight, just like OBL said in one of his statements. He wants the US in the M.E. to fight, he is the aggressor and he started this... If self defense is a cirumstance, that is fine, but the foreign fighter who went to Iraq and have since joined in on killing Iraqi civilians and so on are not there in self defense, only the iraqis are there in self defense and no one is carrying out a military assault on the Iraqi civilian except al-qaida, if the US were there to kill all Iraqis, we would do so by air and large bombs, not by sending 155k troops to police their streets.

For the most part they are torturing the iraqis. I've bin in Iraq and never have I heard some iraqi thanking the americans. I've bin in the old Iraq, and it was much safer and better than the current Iraq. Nothing has bin improved for the iraqi's, NOTHING! Not only are the marines teasing kids but they are also shooting kids! When you ask a marine why he is in Iraq he will respond with the famous and stupid respond: "to serve and protect my country", he will not respond with what it should be which is "to help the iraqi's".

proof? yes there have been cases abu gharib, etc. each has been investigated and those involved have been or are being tried in a military court (harsher than civilian court), those involved will lead a sorry life if they choose to stay in the US for their crimes. What has been done to those on al-qaedas side who commit war crimes? Where is that justice system?

Every batch has its bad apple, and when a bad apple is found you throw it out. When a bad soldier is found he should be punished fairly, but that is not the reality! Marines that have deliberately killed iraqi's get a sentence equal to bank robbing in america or armed robbery! Some are not even punished!

Isnt it america's own responsibility to make shure that no bad soldiers are send out to foreign nations? They should at least punish the bad soldiers and prove for the iraqi's that they are in fact in Iraq to help the people and not to imperialize their nation and harm them.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3447440&page=2
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...topstories.RSS
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005..._571_22_05.txt
http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=46371120

YOU ARE WELCOME TO DO A SEARCH BUT US SOLDIERS ARE CONSTANTLY PUNISHED FOR ANY WRONGDOING THEY COMMIT IN IRAQ

Please note the 100 year sentence for rape, which typically carries a 7-15 year in the US

Bush's plan was to invade Iraq and leave behind a dictator that would do anything that america tells him to do. The plan has never bin to help the people, if america wants to help the people perhaps they should start by removing the dictators that they have left behind from their ealier invasions.

I wont dispute any plan Bush may have or have had but I think judging by the use of force in Iraq today, that the US is there to try and help stabilize the country.

[krypton6]

Not only do the marine report this, but the locals as well, why else do you think there have been so many people to turn against them? Your case is easy to diagnose... DENIAL

The locals? I'm a local, half of my family are the locals, we have never reported any of it and nor have any one that we could think of in Iraq. The locals have never reported anything, they have never blaimed al-Qaida for anything, in fact the shia locals do not blaim al-Qaida for anything they blaim the sunnis for the attacks. In Iraq it is only the shia regime and the western invaders who blaim al-Qaida, the locals do not hate al-Qaida in anyway!

So unless Bin Laden himself claims it, it isnt an al-qaeda attack? nonsense... I guess the same could be said then of Bush, Bush never claimed to torture anyone at Abu-Gharib or claimed to support it, never claimed to support the death of innocent civilians either, so the US government must not be at all accountable or responsible..

Unless a official al-Qaida spokesman takes the responsebility for a attack, it isnt al-Qaida. Even the shia locals in Iraq do not blaim al-Qaida! They blaim the sunni millits for the attacks but never have the locals blaimed al-Qaida, they support al-Qaida! The Abu-Gharib episode cannot be compared to this! The marines who tortured the iraqi prisoners, all admitted it and took the full responsebility for what they had done. There was to much evidence! But with al-Qaida the government blaims them without having any form of evidence!

FALSE... You can do a simple google, yahoo, CNN, Al-jazeera, etc search and find countless al-qaeda attacks claimed by their "senior officials"

They better be more clear than those that you gave me before.

No matter how it is interpreted, it is still a Muslim term right? Then who do you think OBL is using that term for, he drags religion into this war everytime he speaks, even in the way he delivers the message "singing" it the way he does

It isnt even a muslim term, its a arabic term! Jihad = To struggle!

He drags religion into this war because of people like you accusing him of doing the Haraam! He is trying to make it clear for every muslim that what he have done is not against Islam.

I have friends who fought in that war, I am not saying that everything soldiers do is moral or right or even close to within the bounds of what I believe in, but I believe they are doing far more good than al-qaeda

and they are not, yet you still feel the need to make excuses and deny things for them

I believe that even Saddam did far more good then what the ridiculous marines are doing. You are supporting the imperialisation and colonization of the islamic nations, you are is supporting the murdering of muslims and nonmuslims, you are supporting the land stealing of Palestine and I could go on...

They are and I'm not defending them I'm just telling the truth unlike you.

unarmed is a civilian in most cases

A civilian is someone who is in no way supporting the government. Not many of those exist in the west!

you seem to be quite an example

Yea and look who's talking! I'm not brainwashed, I've seen it, experienced it and been there myself unlike you who have no idea what it is that your talking about. I couldnt possibly be brainwashed since I've seen it myself, but you on the other hand...

[MTAFFI]

The locals? I'm a local, half of my family are the locals, we have never reported any of it and nor have any one that we could think of in Iraq. The locals have never reported anything, they have never blaimed al-Qaida for anything, in fact the shia locals do not blaim al-Qaida for anything they blaim the sunnis for the attacks. In Iraq it is only the shia regime and the western invaders who blaim al-Qaida, the locals do not hate al-Qaida in anyway!

Really? Where are you located? If the locals never reported anything, why would they be changing sides?

Unless a official al-Qaida spokesman takes the responsebility for a attack, it isnt al-Qaida. Even the shia locals in Iraq do not blaim al-Qaida! They blaim the sunni millits for the attacks but never have the locals blaimed al-Qaida, they support al-Qaida! The Abu-Gharib episode cannot be compared to this! The marines who tortured the iraqi prisoners, all admitted it and took the full responsebility for what they had done. There was to much evidence! But with al-Qaida the government blaims them without having any form of evidence!

There was evidence wasnt there? And who do you think investigated it? Who gave the authority and clearance to investigate it? The US military... Al-qaeda cant claim every attack because they are not as organized as they would like to portray, al-qaeda is more of an idea than an organization going from town to town

They better be more clear than those that you gave me before.

Right it has to be crystal clear, but on the other hand with the US military it doesnt have to be clear at all, hearsay would probably work

It isnt even a muslim term, its a arabic term! Jihad = To struggle!

OK fine an arabic term, you are dancing around the issue, the term doesnt have to be Jihad, OBL has put Islam at the forefront in all of his speeches and so on, with the use of the term "kuffar" for example, meaning the disbelievers, correct? Disbelievers of Islam, how is he not using his religion as a political tool

He drags religion into this war because of people like you accusing him of doing the Haraam! He is trying to make it clear for every muslim that what he have done is not against Islam.

It is not for me to judge him, Allah (swt) will do that, I just dont agree with his ideaology

I believe that even Saddam did far more good then what the ridiculous marines are doing. You are supporting the imperialisation and colonization of the islamic nations, you are is supporting the murdering of muslims and nonmuslims, you are supporting the land stealing of Palestine and I could go on...

Why is that? Why is it if I support the idea of a violence free Iraq and middle east I am supporting imperialization and colonization? Why is it if a terrorist group supports al-qaeda the same cannot be said? You are full of double standards, the same thing I have seen you say you hate. I am against oppression and I am against US presense in Iraq, I am against taking any more land from the Palestinians and I do not believe that our country needs any presense in the middle east. At the same time I do not believe that just packing up the bags and leaving a huge mess is the right thing to do. If you think Saddam did better that is your opinion, he could have complied with the UN and allowed inspections and had the sanctions relieved from his nation, but he didnt. He could have allowed humanitarian aid in his country, but because we would not allow military goods into the country he denied humanitarian aid, he didnt have to let his sons rape countless women, kill countless innocent civilians, etc. But whatever, I will not change your mind on anything, and I am OK with that

They are and I'm not defending them I'm just telling the truth unlike you.

It appears there must be variations in what the truth is

A civilian is someone who is in no way supporting the government. Not many of those exist in the west!

no kidding, and here i am thinking a civilian is anyone who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization... hmmm silly me

Yea and look who's talking! I'm not brainwashed, I've seen it, experienced it and been there myself unlike you who have no idea what it is that your talking about. I couldnt possibly be brainwashed since I've seen it myself, but you on the other hand...

No need to get angry with one another, I apologize if I seemed curt or angry in any previous posts, you are muslim and you are my brother, we must agree to disagree on this subject because we will get no where. May Allah guide us both to the right path

Peace

[Cognescenti]

^ it wasnt deleted, the forum crashed, posts and reps from 3 days are gone.

Oh...the humanity! Such wit and wisdom lost forever :'(

[MTAFFI]

Oh...the humanity! Such wit and wisdom lost forever :'(

..... you never know the secret to world peace and the universe could have been in a post somewhere in the last 3 days:?

[krypton6]

Do a simple Google, yahoo, cnn, al-jazeera search, very easy to find

I've triet, no luck please help me you seem to know so much about it.

Right, the US removes a dictator, and sectarian violence breaks out... you will notice though that the first few months there (before al-qaeda started arriving) there was a relative calm, perhaps Al-qaeda or the groups that spawned off of them are responsible, did that ever cross your mind?

Actually no! The first months were blooded months. The reason that they were not the most blooded is simply because no one was prepared to fight.
During those months people robbed and stole from every far corner of Iraq, hundreds of thosuands left Iraq, and those who were going to fight started taking from what was left of the old Iraqi Army.No man in Iraq had a gun in his backyard, those who were going to fight would have to find a gun. People were preparing themselves for a war! "Did that ever cross your mind?"

Of course it is made up, everything is just made up, really al-qaeda just wants to go back to picking flowers or not existing at all and just live in peace with the rest of the world....

Alot of stuff is made up, america claimed that Saddam had weopens of mass distruction but it turned out to be a lie. Shortly after the assasination of Benazir Bhutto the american and the pakistani government blaimed al-Qaida for the assasination but it too turned out to be a lie. Most of what america have claimed have turned out to be a lie, which is why muslims and many others do not trust america any longer.

And yes al-Qaida wants peace, they just dont want to achieve peace in the wrong way which would be to allie yourself with america and accept what they have done to muslims in the past.

Ahh, here we are again, they are supported by al-qaeda but that doesnt make them al-qaeda huh? Well then apply that logic to israel and the US, oh wait that doesnt suit your cause does it?

al-Qaida is not controlling the Islamic Magreb, America is controlling israel.

Right, so desecrating or blowing up houses of worship is all of a sudden an acceptable tactic? No, not in Islam it isnt, it is actually strictly forbidden. Not to mention the people were innocent

It depends on who's house of worship it is. The synagogue was owned by the israeli government and the money given to it would be automatically send to israel. Usually a place of worship is not a tourist attraction, the synagogue was not even used for worshipping! The people who died had all payed the israeli government, so how can you say that they were civilians? They were unarmed but they were not civilians. Those tourists payed the Israeli government money that would later be used to steal more lands from the palesitnians and kill more palestinians.

It isnt their country, so the sunni's dont need them to understand anything

They are both muslims who are both against the american imperialism. The sunni's need the few al-Qaida members (those who see the sunni's as betrayers) to understand that they have no choice! The sunni's need them to understand or else the sunni's be attacked further.

Btw, in Islam where your from does not matter.

Right, so 9/11 was self defense? The countless bombings on embassies, etc are self defense? No not really, more of a move to bring the US to middle eastern ground to fight, just like OBL said in one of his statements. He wants the US in the M.E. to fight, he is the aggressor and he started this...

Yes 9/11 was self defense and so was the bombed embassies. Amrica refused to leave the middle east, they were offered peace so many times but kept ignoring the offers. America attacked the middle east and started this war Bin Laden is simply giving back to america what they have given to the middle east for so many years. In order for the americans to realise that what they have bin doing and are doing is not acceptable america must be attacked! They were attacked and looks what happening! The americans no longer support the war in Iraq, and now america is about to get a president that wants the america out of the middle east, which is the only thing that al-Qaida and every muslim wants. America are the ones who have stolen over 90% of palestine, killed millions of muslims and tortured hundreds of thousands. They are the ones who have have replaced every single democratically elected government and replaced it with their own men who will do anything that america tells them to do. America started this...

If self defense is a cirumstance, that is fine, but the foreign fighter who went to Iraq and have since joined in on killing Iraqi civilians and so on are not there in self defense, only the iraqis are there in self defense and no one is carrying out a military assault on the Iraqi civilian except al-qaida, if the US were there to kill all Iraqis, we would do so by air and large bombs, not by sending 155k troops to police their streets.

No foreign muslim fighter have ever deliberately killed an iraqi civilian and even the iraqi's agree on that so who are you to say anything different?

The foreign muslim fighters are in Iraq to defend Iraq! To help the sunni's and the shia locals! America are not carrying out a full military assault on the Iraqi civilians because they cant! Doing so would start a new world war in which america are seen as the bad guys through all eyes. You have killed thousands of civilians by air and large bombs, the 155K troops were send there to remove the Saddam regime, a regime that was against israel and the american imperialism. The 155k troops were send there to replace the Saddam regime with a just as barbaric regime, one that unlike the Saddam regime supports israel and america and will do anything that america tells them to do.

If you are there to help, the Iraqi's would not be fighting you!

proof? yes there have been cases abu gharib, etc. each has been investigated and those involved have been or are being tried in a military court (harsher than civilian court), those involved will lead a sorry life if they choose to stay in the US for their crimes. What has been done to those on al-qaedas side who commit war crimes? Where is that justice system?

Those involved in the Abu Ghraib case were all given some easy punishments. Two of them were sentenced to 7 and 10 years in prison, others were fired and banned from the military for a number of years while nothing happend to others. Does that seem right knowing how brutally and barbarically they tortured and killed iraqi prisoners? The al-Qaida members caught are all sent to Guantanamo Bay where they arent even executed but instead tortured barbarically every single day, and most of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay are in fact only suspected al-Qaida members yet they are brutally tortured and treated as animals!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/WireStory?id=3447440&page=2

They should without a doubt all be executed! They killed the girls family probably in front of her, and then raped her barbarically! Only one of them faces a possible death sentence! Is that justice?

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...topstories.RSS

He could have stopped it but instead he stood a few feets away from the girl watching her being raped and her entire family being shot in front of her eyes. Is that justice? He should be executed the same way that he executed a entire family and raped the daughter!

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005..._571_22_05.txt

3 years in prison for manslaughter, and another marine got 18 months in prison for manslaughter! Is that justice?

http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=46371120

10 years in prison for executing prisoners (both men and woman) through torturing? While others were given much lighter sentences. Is that justice?

YOU ARE WELCOME TO DO A SEARCH BUT US SOLDIERS ARE CONSTANTLY PUNISHED FOR ANY WRONGDOING THEY COMMIT IN IRAQ

Please note the 100 year sentence for rape, which typically carries a 7-15 year in the US

They are punished but they are given much lighter sentences than what they would have got if were it americans that they had killed.

100 year sentence for mass raping a girl, shooting her mother, father and 8 year old sister in front of her eyes and then shooting the 14 year old girl.

I wont dispute any plan Bush may have or have had but I think judging by the use of force in Iraq today, that the US is there to try and help stabilize the country.

If they are there to help why dont they start by helping the saudish and the egyptians who have because of america never experienced any sort of democracy! Why dont they help the extremly poor egyptians and arabs in middle east? They are not there to help, they are there to colonize yet another country, and then leave behind a brutal dictator that will do what ever america tells him to do. If they were there to help they would start by removing the poorness in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Tunisia, Algeria and many others, they wouldnt unstable yet another country and then start from there.

[krypton6]

Really? Where are you located? If the locals never reported anything, why would they be changing sides?

I'm half iraqi, I've bin in Iraq so many times since this war started and I was even there before it. By "why would they be changing sides" what do you mean?

There was evidence wasnt there? And who do you think investigated it? Who gave the authority and clearance to investigate it? The US military... Al-qaeda cant claim every attack because they are not as organized as they would like to portray, al-qaeda is more of an idea than an organization going from town to town

The evidence from the Abu Ghraib episode was clear pictures showing what was taking place. The us military didnt take that picture, one of the involved marines did. The US marine didnt accept the pictures, because at the time that the military found out, the pictures were already in america! al-Qaida usually takes the responsebility for every single one of their attacks. It takes money and time to make and detonate a bomb, I really doubt that they wouldnt take the credit for it áfter having gone through all the trouble of making the bomb and detonating it.

Right it has to be crystal clear, but on the other hand with the US military it doesnt have to be clear at all, hearsay would probably work

No it just has to be clear, with the US military it is usually crystal clear!

OK fine an arabic term, you are dancing around the issue, the term doesnt have to be Jihad, OBL has put Islam at the forefront in all of his speeches and so on, with the use of the term "kuffar" for example, meaning the disbelievers, correct? Disbelievers of Islam, how is he not using his religion as a political too

No politic is the main of all his speeches. The way he speaks some believe to be religiously, but in fact listen carefully and you might notice that he is simply speaking in true arabic. He uses the term of Kuffar, but in what context? Bring it up and I'll try see for myself, perhaps your right, I just doubt it though.

It is not for me to judge him, Allah (swt) will do that, I just dont agree with his ideaology

I want what he wants, I just dont want to achieve what I want the same way that he wants to achieve what he wants.

Why is that? Why is it if I support the idea of a violence free Iraq and middle east I am supporting imperialization and colonization? Why is it if a terrorist group supports al-qaeda the same cannot be said? You are full of double standards, the same thing I have seen you say you hate. I am against oppression and I am against US presense in Iraq, I am against taking any more land from the Palestinians and I do not believe that our country needs any presense in the middle east.

The current Iraq is not a free Iraq, and nor is the current Algeria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Marocco (and I could go on). The marines are the ones who have removed democracy from the middle east (except in Iraq), and replaced it with american allied dictators who will do anything that america tells them to do. Bush's plan was to invade Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein, a man that would not listen to america, and then replace him with a dictator that will do anything that america tells him to do. But because of the insurgency, a american allied Iraq have yet not bin established and it will probably never be established. A "terrorist" group supporting al-Qaida must be supporting imperialization and colonization according to my logic? Why? al-Qaida is against imperialization and colonization so how can a "terrorist" group supporting al-Qaida stand for the opposit?

The brutal Zionists have already stolen more than 90% of palestine, so what your saying is that you believe the 10-% to be fair for the palestinians?

At the same time I do not believe that just packing up the bags and leaving a huge mess is the right thing to do. If you think Saddam did better that is your opinion, he could have complied with the UN and allowed inspections and had the sanctions relieved from his nation, but he didnt. He could have allowed humanitarian aid in his country, but because we would not allow military goods into the country he denied humanitarian aid, he didnt have to let his sons rape countless women, kill countless innocent civilians, etc. But whatever, I will not change your mind on anything, and I am OK with that.

I was in Iraq before the war, we were poor but we had enough money to eat, we had clean runing water, we had electricity, we had enough money to buy clothes and such, wee werent afraid of being hit by a bomb, we were living in fear but at least we were living! Today you have no electricity in Iraq, no clean runing water, you barely have enough food, every house has bullet holes in it, its cold in the winter and extremly hot in the summer, and you live in fear every night afraid of not seing your mother or father again as you wake up, afraid of being kidnapped, bombed, shot and what is worse. In Iraq it is as if god had left it many years ago. Saddam was a murdere and so are the marines, but for some reason Iraq was liveable while he ruled (as long as you werent against him).

The troops should just go home, they have acomplished nothign in Iraq and the mission has failed. America are not there for the right reasons..

no kidding, and here i am thinking a civilian is anyone who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization... hmmm silly me

The "civilians" are afterall the ones who pay the government, money that we both know on what goes.

No need to get angry with one another, I apologize if I seemed curt or angry in any previous posts, you are muslim and you are my brother, we must agree to disagree on this subject because we will get no where. May Allah guide us both to the right path

Peace

Well thanks for the kind words, I feel guilty so I might aswell say the same to you...

No need to get angry with one another, I apologize if I seemed curt or angry in any previous posts, you are muslim and you are my brother, we must agree to disagree on this subject because we will get no where. May Allah guide us both to the right path

Peace

[Rou]

At first sight -

how disturbing these people are so desperate!?!? children picking up guns?? kids fighting??? deluded madness these people are crazy....animals and yeah they should be locked up im sure they are treated fine i mean comn they are children.

Now lets take away the ignorant curtain in front of our eyes -

Reality....if the city of london was turned upside down and thrown into turmoil and the goverment taken down and war upon every street im sure there would be more than a few kids with guns in there hands , i mean comn theres no war and there are already 10 yearolds stabbing adults so what do you think will happen in war time?? second lets not play naive to how prisons are in america...forget usa baased prisons in iraq that we already know how things can happen and be buried...if civilians in there houses can be raped and killed what the heck do you think goes on behind closed doors??

am i trying to make you feel bad?? no im just trying to show diffrence between reality and the mickey mouse world we are so used to living in....

[Cognescenti]

The "civilians" are afterall the ones who pay the government, money that we both know on what goes.

That is the lamest rationalization for murder yet advanced on this forum (with the possible exception of the apologists for the Beslan school massacre).

Do you not have an inner voice that says..."perhaps it is wrong to murder some immigrant from Guatemala just because he happens to work as a busboy in New York".

Congratulations! You stand head and shoulders above the rest!

Oh, and the scope of your historical knowledge is simply breathtaking.

[Cognescenti]

...am i trying to make you feel bad?? no im just trying to show diffrence between reality and the mickey mouse world we are so used to living in....

How generous of you.

Save your sermon for a true believer. You are just a ripe bag of pustulant hatred.

[krypton6]

That is the lamest rationalization for murder yet advanced on this forum (with the possible exception of the apologists for the Beslan school massacre).

Do you not have an inner voice that says..."perhaps it is wrong to murder some immigrant from Guatemala just because he happens to work as a busboy in New York".

Congratulations! You stand head and shoulders above the rest!

Oh, and the scope of your historical knowledge is simply breathtaking.

Are you kidding me! At what point did I justefy killing! I'm just pointing out what a true civilian is and some one paying the forces traumatizing every muslims life should never be called a civilian, but at what point did I justefy the killing of these people? You gotta be blind or something gee!!

[Rou]

How generous of you.

Save your sermon for a true believer. You are just a ripe bag of pustulant hatred.

funny i see no hatred in my words?? would you mind stating them before insulting?? perhaps it is you who is the ripe bag of pustulant hatred hey?