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guyabano
02-05-2008, 12:54 PM
A professor of Islamic law in the Middle East says the United States has made the world a better place because of its policy of armed force to eliminate dictatorial threats such as the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq.

"America has done many positive things and changed the world for the better," said Dr. Abd Al-Hamid Al-Ansari, former dean of the faculty of Islamic law at the University of Qatar.

Responding to nearly universal criticism of the U.S. from the Arab press, Al-Ansari wrote an article titled "What Do We Demand From America?" in the Feb. 4 issue of the London Arabic-language daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat. Excerpts were translated by the Washington, D.C.-based Middle East Media Research Institute.

"Let us imagine the world if America had listened to the French and German logic saying: Give the murderers of the Serbs and the Arabs a chance for a diplomatic solution," Al-Ansari wrote. "Would Bosnia, Kuwait and Iraq be liberated [today] … ?"

The Islamic professor criticized European leaders who indicated democracy is not suitable to Arab culture, implying by their actions: "Leave the backward ones alone to consume each other … ."

"See now how many countries are turning towards democracy," he wrote. "Even Afghanistan has a constitution. In Iraq, [they are drafting] a new constitution and handing over the regime, and Libya has changed … ."

Al-Ansari contended there are lessons to be learned from this.

"First, the tyrants don't leave until bombs fall," he said. "The peoples alone are not capable of struggling with dictatorial regimes except with powerful external help … ."

He urged the United States to "further encourage the democratic trend and reward the countries that have succeeded in the area of political, social, and economic reform, with aid, support, investment and free trade agreements."

Al-Ansari said there are those in the Arab world and elsewhere who think the world has become a worse place because of U.S. action and insist "America is using the war on terror and [the idea of] spreading democracy as a pretext for unrestrained hegemony, empire creation and expansion in the world in disregard of international law or the principles of morality."

But this viewpoint sees a "half-empty glass," he said, focusing "only on the negative traits of America because of the widespread media distortion of [America's] image that prevails in our countries."

Al-Ansari, stating "America's positive deeds surpass its negative deeds," said the U.S. has a track record of establishing democracies "and the most outstanding examples are in Germany and Japan."

He contended if the U.S. had not been prompted to action with a terrorist strike on its own soil, "we would not be able to fight [terrorism]."

Al-Ansari added, however, "might alone is not enough."

"Terrorism has an ideological and cultural base that must be dismantled, and therefore America needs to encourage the countries to reexamine their educational systems in full – not only the curriculum – and must give financial and professional aid in developing the educational system … ."

Al-Ansari said the Arab media "help vilify the image of America and increase hatred for it," but he asserted they are not "acting in a vaccum," referring to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"America's bias in favor of Israel provides fertile ground for blackening the image of America in the Arab and Muslim public awareness," he claimed.

Echoing the emir of Qatar, he said, "We call on America to view our problems with greater balance, justice, and honesty. This is what will improve its image in the Arab and Islamic world … ."


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Keltoi
02-06-2008, 12:37 PM
That is sort of the unspoken debate between the Western powers right now. Is it worth promoting democracy in Arab countries? We know that most people prefer a democratic state with a capitalist free-market economy, as they are immigrating to these places in droves. The U.S. has taken the foreign policy approach, for years, that promoting democracy should be a focus of every American president. The Europeans, in general, feel that promoting democracy in Arab countries is a losing proposition. Bush is trying to prove the Europeans and many American politicians wrong, but so far the opponents seem to be right. The concept seems so alien to many of these countries, whose history has been nothing but violent power grabs by dictators for the most part.
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Amadeus85
02-06-2008, 12:47 PM
I think that neither Europe nor USA should promote democracy in Middle East in the way like Americans did it in Iraq. Arabs and Pakistanis and other muslims should decide on their own what kind of state they want.
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Keltoi
02-06-2008, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I think that neither Europe nor USA should promote democracy in Middle East in the way like Americans did it in Iraq. Arabs and Pakistanis and other muslims should decide on their own what kind of state they want.
That's the problem, most of them don't have a say in what government they want, they have one imposed upon them. However, I actually agree with your main point.
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mariam.
02-06-2008, 01:14 PM
If what America did in Iraq is a democracy promotion then simply we don't need it .. thank you
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2008, 01:41 PM
He's got to be on the yanky payroll.
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Cognescenti
02-06-2008, 02:46 PM
I hope this guy has a bodyguard.
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krypton6
02-06-2008, 02:47 PM
^^ He better
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Cognescenti
02-06-2008, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
He's got to be on the yanky payroll.
It's spelled "Yankee" ...and it's capitalized, thank you :okay:

I think you are wrong. It doesn't sound like the kind of guy Steinbrenner would hire.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-06-2008, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
It's spelled "Yankee" ...and it's capitalized, thank you :okay:

I think you are wrong. It doesn't sound like the kind of guy Steinbrenner would hire.
Tamato Tomatoe....:p

I'm sure some good is being done, but sadly it's taken the bad to occur first.
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Fishman
02-06-2008, 05:16 PM
:sl:
If the USA brought democracy to the middle east at all it is the corrupt, millitary dictatorship and fixed poll type rather than the proper version. What happened in Iraq isn't democracy in action, its a disaster!

Mind you, the USA has done good in various other countries, like Bosnia and the like. It is just the middle east where they made a mess.
:w:
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The_Prince
02-06-2008, 06:27 PM
i love it how guybano is quoting this article, and the few neocons are all so happy at this article....YAYYYYYYYY one Islamic scholar said this he must be so good!

just to expose what hypocrites these guys are, if we quote the DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS of Islamic scholars who condemn the USA and its policy these same guys will respond by: ISLAMOFACIST! AL-QAEDA! bla bla bla

there is no dialog with such ppl, there is something else, but i wont say. ;)
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Cognescenti
02-06-2008, 10:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
i love it how guybano is quoting this article, and the few neocons are all so happy at this article....YAYYYYYYYY one Islamic scholar said this he must be so good! .....
Where did anyone say such a thing in this thread? Did you even read the thread?


BTW...as you seem to be fond of throwing the term "neocon" around, do you have the slightest idea what it means or is it just a hip word for you right now.

Don't worry, your homies will down wit dat
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The_Prince
02-06-2008, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Where did anyone say such a thing in this thread? Did you even read the thread?


BTW...as you seem to be fond of throwing the term "neocon" around, do you have the slightest idea what it means or is it just a hip word for you right now.

Don't worry, your homies will down wit dat
i find these comments funny comming from a neocon who likes throwing the word "lefty" around.....you dont like it? stop calling everyone lefties and lefty, then maybe i will stop calling you a neocon.

gosh i love how neocons cry foul play against tactics they employ.....

i mean theres another thread which exposes facts, of israels crimes, and americas crimes and how their termed as bravery and on and on, and then you term that as LEFTY! your pathetic, but offcourse your fellow neocons on fox news etc will be down with that.
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Roasted Cashew
02-07-2008, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
i love it how guybano is quoting this article, and the few neocons are all so happy at this article....YAYYYYYYYY one Islamic scholar said this he must be so good!

just to expose what hypocrites these guys are, if we quote the DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS AND DOZENS of Islamic scholars who condemn the USA and its policy these same guys will respond by: ISLAMOFACIST! AL-QAEDA! bla bla bla

there is no dialog with such ppl, there is something else, but i wont say. ;)
You have it right on Prince. I hate neocons and their twisted bloody propaganda. I would spit on one if I see one myself. These bloody warmongers should be hanged. Obviously we know America has done some good but it has done many wrongs as well. And currently it is doing another wrong by Staying in Iraq.
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thirdwatch512
02-07-2008, 02:37 AM
It is nice to promote democracy and power to the people.

But doing such by going to war; That is just plain out wrong, and we need to not do that! We are using too many of our resources in a useless war that is killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

I am a marxist, but that does not mean I want to invade countries and change their policies! War sucks, and should never be justified!

That being said, I appreciate the scholar's opinion and I am glad he stated it :)
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snakelegs
02-07-2008, 02:38 AM
we have certainly upheld our share of dictatorships in the world and even installed a few ourselves.
anyone who could refer to iraq as "liberated" is in serious need of some kind of mental help. ^o)
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czgibson
02-07-2008, 02:50 AM
Greetings,

It's clear from the article and from daily life that there are distortions on both sides of the issue here.

But we're used to that, aren't we?

Every text is susceptible to alternate readings, and the current world situation is like a big text being interpreted in different ways by each side. Therefore we should read everything sceptically, weighing it for possible bias or alternate interpretations.

Here are two facts that it's worth bearing in mind when we look at what's going on in the world today:

There are good people in America, and there are idiots in America.

There are good people in the Middle East, and there are idiots in the Middle East.


The sooner we all realise that we are all human, and that killing each other helps none of us, the better. That seems so obvious, but the message doesn't seem to have sunk in for us humans.

If we could stop creating systems of thought where we automatically view people as either 'one of us' or 'one of them', we would be a much happier species.

Peace
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MTAFFI
02-07-2008, 05:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

It's clear from the article and from daily life that there are distortions on both sides of the issue here.

But we're used to that, aren't we?

Every text is susceptible to alternate readings, and the current world situation is like a big text being interpreted in different ways by each side. Therefore we should read everything sceptically, weighing it for possible bias or alternate interpretations.

Here are two facts that it's worth bearing in mind when we look at what's going on in the world today:

There are good people in America, and there are idiots in America.

There are good people in the Middle East, and there are idiots in the Middle East.


The sooner we all realise that we are all human, and that killing each other helps none of us, the better. That seems so obvious, but the message doesn't seem to have sunk in for us humans.

If we could stop creating systems of thought where we automatically view people as either 'one of us' or 'one of them', we would be a much happier species.

Peace
wow...

if only everyone could read that post and agree with it.... perhaps Allah (swt) would relieve us of this punishment that the world endures today.. I fear it may be many lifetimes though before your message is realized by the majority of the world.
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guyabano
02-07-2008, 07:51 AM
Of course, these words are often used across the forum, and of course the world: 'War is no solution'.
I have actually following thoughts:

Imagine, the middle east would have never been touched by the west. Would there have been peace? Maybe sharia law would have been installed, who knows. Everything haraam would have been banned and muslims would live happily among each other !
Doesn't that look great? Sounds like a perfect fairy tale.

I think not. Sooner or later, this place would have been a disaster. Why? With the upcoming of Satellite TV and Internet, which don't have any boundaries, muslims would have become curious about that. The leaders would like to stop that, but they could not.
There is a saying: 'Once a dog lick blood, he would like to eat meat'. Well, here it will not be different.
Finally, even the West would leave the middle east in peace, they would blame the west for corrupting the muslim youth with satanistic Internet and TV, even tough, it was there own choice to get a glimpse at.

Whatever way, history would have gone, there would always be a war. The middle east blame the west and vice versa.

But one thing I'm pretty sure today: There will be never an islamisation of the west but more an westernisation of the middle east. I would bet an high amount on that. Anyway, we can see already Internet, SAT-TV, iPods, Cellphones, Coca-Cola, etc..on the way to all these countires. Anyway, no need to go far. Just see in the Muslim Areas in UK the muslims teenies, and then tell me, how many of them really pray 5 times a day. I'm curious. I'm pretty sure, none of them do not listen to Music à la Eminem.

My final question then would be: What is so bad on democracy? The power of the people to elect its leaders, what is so wrong on that ? There is a proof of success, as all countries in the west, who have opted for democracy live in peace.
So why not the east ? I'm pretty sure, there is a way to find a good way to marry Islam with Democracy.
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imaad_udeen
02-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Without America, the UK and Russia the Middle East would be under the direct rule of the Nazis. They were not good people.

So it is not as if the US is all bad.
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jzcasejz
02-07-2008, 01:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
Without America, the UK and Russia the Middle East would be under the direct rule of the Nazis. They were not good people.
^ It wasn't all America. The Russians also played a MASSIVE role on the eastern front in turning the tide against the Nazis. Russia's massive, and it had a massive army back then in terms of troop numbers.
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guyabano
02-07-2008, 01:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by jzcasejz
^ It wasn't all America. The Russians also played a MASSIVE role on the eastern front in turning the tide against the Nazis. Russia's massive, and it had a massive army back then in terms of troop numbers.
That is true, but sad to say, the russians didn't even have enough money to feed their soldiers neither to fill up their tanks with gasoline.
All what the russians could do was to barely hold back the agressors, and that also because the Nazis weren't prepared for the rudeness of the russian winter.
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aamirsaab
02-07-2008, 01:44 PM
:sl:

First of all I would like to agree with czgibson's post. I'm glad there are some people in the internet land that have not lost all common sense.

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
My final question then would be: What is so bad on democracy? The power of the people to elect its leaders, what is so wrong on that ? There is a proof of success, as all countries in the west, who have opted for democracy live in peace.
So why not the east ? I'm pretty sure, there is a way to find a good way to marry Islam with Democracy.
I don't really know why democracy hasn't kicked off in the east. Usually you find some sort of dictatorship or a mediocre version of sharia law (though, Nigeria I believe has gotten quite close to the original version) but democracy as it is implimented in the UK (and probably the US for that matter) is a rare sight in the East. It could be down to corrupt power-hungry leaders (pakistan has a list of these) but I don't know for sure.
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Keltoi
02-07-2008, 04:07 PM
I believe it is because democracy is seen as a "Western" product, and also because education isn't exactly easy to get in many of these countries. Uneducated people are easier to manipulate. All a middle eastern dictator has to do is point fingers at the West and blame them for the state of affairs in their country and the people will eat it up.
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Muezzin
02-07-2008, 04:15 PM
It's a bit strange how there seems to be this underlying tendency to cast democracy as inherently good and any other form of government as inherently inferior.

Not that I'm 'dissing' democracy. Look at countries that happen to be undemocratic, and clearly they tend to be a bit rubbish in terms of economics, human rights and scientific advances.

The same can be said of some democratic states. That doesn't mean democracy is causing those problems; by the same token, it doesn't necessarily follow that the lack of democracy causes those problems in undemocratic societies.

Maybe, then, any form of government is essentially damage control, and must be judged on a case by case basis.
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Gator
02-07-2008, 04:41 PM
To follow on your point, I believe democracy is only as good as the underlying society. If you have an inherently unstable social & political society the democracy will relflect that.

The upside of a true democractic state is that the people can change the system whereas in a dictatorship/oligopoly/kingdom, you are stuck. The down side is it is relatively inefficient and prone to gridlock if the society is divided.

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."
Winston Churchill
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-07-2008, 04:45 PM
"Let us imagine the world if America had listened to the French and German logic saying: Give the murderers of the Serbs and the Arabs a chance for a diplomatic solution," Al-Ansari wrote. "Would Bosnia, Kuwait and Iraq be liberated [today] … ?"
^ i read that part and felt sick thus stopped reading.


l
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czgibson
02-08-2008, 11:36 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
It's a bit strange how there seems to be this underlying tendency to cast democracy as inherently good and any other form of government as inherently inferior.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others that have been tried."

- Winston Churchill

Peace

EDIT: I see Gator beat me to it with this one! It pretty much sums up my feelings on democracy, though.
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