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Moon*Light
02-05-2008, 07:27 PM
US admits killing Iraqi civilians

4/2/2008

The US military has admitted that nine Iraqi civilians were killed during an operation targeting suspected al-Qaeda fighters south of Baghdad, the capital.

Navy Lieutenant Patrick Evans, a military spokesman, said that the incident occurred on Saturday near the town of Iskandariya, 50km south of the Iraqi capital.

Three more civilians including two children were wounded "as coalition forces pursued al-Qaeda".

Witnesses said that 20 people, including 17 members of one family, had been killed in an US air raid in the area.


"Shortly after the incident, coalition forces leaders met with a sheikh representing the citizens of the local area," a US military statement said.
"The incident is under investigation. We offer our condolences to the families of those who were killed in this incident, and we mourn the loss of innocent civilian life."

The statement gave no further details.

Iraqi police said that US helicopters had fired on a checkpoint manned by a neighbourhood police patrol and several woman were among the victims.

Saturday's strike was the deadliest case of "mistaken identity" acknowledged by US forces in recent months.

In November, a leader of one of the so-called awakening councils, Sunni tribesmen allied with American forces in fighting to oust al-Qaeda from their towns, said that US soldiers had killed dozens of his fighters during a 12-hour battle north of Baghdad.

Mansour Abid Salim, the leader of the Taji Awakening Council, accused US troops of mistaking his men for fighters.

The military admitted killing 25 men, but said they were "insurgents" operating "in the target area" where al-Qaeda was believed to be hiding.

Critics say US forces often call in air raids on targets, including buildings where opposition fighters are believed to be hiding, without taking reasonable care to find out who might be inside.

The US military says that armed groups often deliberately use civilians as shields against attacking US forces.


Source: Agencies

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...8B0DB4AFB6.htm
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Ninth_Scribe
02-07-2008, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moon*Light
US admits killing Iraqi civilians

4/2/2008

The US military has admitted that nine Iraqi civilians were killed during an operation targeting suspected al-Qaeda fighters south of Baghdad, the capital.

Navy Lieutenant Patrick Evans, a military spokesman, said that the incident occurred on Saturday near the town of Iskandariya, 50km south of the Iraqi capital.

Three more civilians including two children were wounded "as coalition forces pursued al-Qaeda".

Witnesses said that 20 people, including 17 members of one family, had been killed in an US air raid in the area.


"Shortly after the incident, coalition forces leaders met with a sheikh representing the citizens of the local area," a US military statement said.
"The incident is under investigation. We offer our condolences to the families of those who were killed in this incident, and we mourn the loss of innocent civilian life."

The statement gave no further details.

Iraqi police said that US helicopters had fired on a checkpoint manned by a neighbourhood police patrol and several woman were among the victims.

Saturday's strike was the deadliest case of "mistaken identity" acknowledged by US forces in recent months.

In November, a leader of one of the so-called awakening councils, Sunni tribesmen allied with American forces in fighting to oust al-Qaeda from their towns, said that US soldiers had killed dozens of his fighters during a 12-hour battle north of Baghdad.

Mansour Abid Salim, the leader of the Taji Awakening Council, accused US troops of mistaking his men for fighters.

The military admitted killing 25 men, but said they were "insurgents" operating "in the target area" where al-Qaeda was believed to be hiding.

Critics say US forces often call in air raids on targets, including buildings where opposition fighters are believed to be hiding, without taking reasonable care to find out who might be inside.

The US military says that armed groups often deliberately use civilians as shields against attacking US forces.


Source: Agencies

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...8B0DB4AFB6.htm
That's just their fancy way of covering up the fact that they declared open warfare in residential areas. Not all the peope can leave and go where they please. Only the rich can do that. I learned that when New Orleans was destroyed. I thought for sure everyone had enough warning and they would leave immediately because a category 5 hurricane speaks for itself. It's not open to negotiations. But they didn't leave. Most of them were poor and couldn't leave.

I don't get it, myself. But I do know the civilian casualties in Iraq are mounting over these God-forsaken air strikes because neither side is willing to give in... and it's all because of a name! Let's face it... anyone who proudly raises a banner with the name Al Qaeda is giving Bush a licence to own that land and erect whatever type government he wishes there - usually those who are willing to be obedient slaves... like Maliki. He says and does whatever the Bush administration wants him to.

The Ninth Scribe
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Moon*Light
02-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Yes, that makes me wonder about the background of al Qu'eda.

Also such rulers are useless.
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MaiCarInMtl
02-08-2008, 04:26 PM
I'd like to know what the civilian casualty numbers are compared to the "insurgent" casualty numbers are... It is disguting to see how many innocents have died.
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krypton6
02-08-2008, 04:34 PM
The insurgents are normal people who are against what america is doing to Iraq. The sunnis in Iraq are forced to fight against al-Qaida and possibly kill, it is not something that they want to.
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Moon*Light
02-08-2008, 07:39 PM
I think the amount of civilians dying is by far more than any combatant in Iraq.

bro kropton doesn't it bother you that the US has given to these the so called safwa guns to fight al qa'eda? So they kill each other and the attention is removed from the American soldiers?
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al_islam
02-08-2008, 07:44 PM
I dont see what the great fuss is.

We all know how the US soldiers conduct the affairs of the army.
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krypton6
02-08-2008, 08:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Moon*Light
I think the amount of civilians dying is by far more than any combatant in Iraq.

bro kropton doesn't it bother you that the US has given to these the so called safwa guns to fight al qa'eda? So they kill each other and the attention is removed from the American soldiers?
In Iraq alot of sunni schoolars and shiekhs were kidnapped every single day, kidnapped by the current Iraqi government and kidnapped by the shia millits.

These schoolars were kidnapped from inside of their mosques some time while praying. They were kidnapped and executed in the most horrific way that you could imagine but I will spare you for the details.

The sunnis were kidnapped every single day, they had to do soemthing about that, and what could they do? They asked america for help and were given a offer; They could either risk being kidnapped and barbarically tortured and executed, or they could get the support that they so much needed in order to stop the kidnapping, if only they would ban al-Qaida from the sunni neighborhoods.

They had no choice, but unfortunately some al-Qaida recruits in Iraq do not seem to have any sort of empathy, I make it clear though that Bin Laden the leader of al-Qaida is strongly against the lack of empathy of some of his recruits, more specifically those who attack sunni neighborhoods! These Iraqi al-Qaida recruits are some of the longest branches on the grand al-Qaida tree, meaning that Bin Laden cannot controle them!

The fact that a muslim in this world needs america to survive bothers me, so yes it does bother me but they have no choice as it stands today!
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Moon*Light
02-08-2008, 08:49 PM
Ummm but the safwa is mainly to fight al qa'eda but you mentioned shia???

I think they have a choice other than taking help from the US. Taking any help from the enemy should be avoided.

Also, heck when is it a good thing for people of the same country to kill each other? Provided they need to protect themselves but never should they attack and become militias themselves.

Civil war is a mosnter no one should take part in feeding it.
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Ninth_Scribe
02-08-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MaiCarInMtl
I'd like to know what the civilian casualty numbers are compared to the "insurgent" casualty numbers are... It is disguting to see how many innocents have died.
Yeah, I'd like to know that myself, though I would tend to cut the "insurgents" more slack, seeing as they operate on the defensive position. In other words, they aren't the ones who invaded Iraq. They're just trying to defend it.

There's been a lot of accusations coming from here in the U.S. - stuff like how aweful Zarqawi was for pulling a cross-border raid that destroyed a wedding party. They never mention the fact that when the U.S. invaded Iraq, that Shock and Awe campaign wiped out 7000 (that's the modest count), some of which were members of a wedding party!

The leaders are useless. The Saudi king made an announcement stating that what Bush was doing in Iraq was illegal, but we all know that! He won't do anything about it. Some king he turned out to be. He won't even say a word in defense of the fighters there because Bush told them all to mind they're own business. Apparently, only Bush can call in foreign fighters.

If I ruled, I'd wipe out the democratically elected government, because it was a farce to begin with - and disrespectful. I'd ask the Shia to choose a Sunni leader and I'd ask the Sunnis to choose a Shia leader... and charge them each with the task of pleasing their people. I learned that from my childhood, when my brother and I fought over splitting a piece of cake. My great grand mother said: One of you can cut it, but the other chooses which piece they want. Hey, what ever works!

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
02-08-2008, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by krypton6
In Iraq alot of sunni schoolars and shiekhs were kidnapped every single day, kidnapped by the current Iraqi government and kidnapped by the shia millits.

These scholars were kidnapped from inside of their mosques some time while praying. They were kidnapped and executed in the most horrific way that you could imagine but I will spare you for the details.

The sunnis were kidnapped every single day, they had to do soemthing about that, and what could they do? They asked america for help and were given a offer; They could either risk being kidnapped and barbarically tortured and executed, or they could get the support that they so much needed in order to stop the kidnapping, if only they would ban al-Qaida from the sunni neighborhoods.

They had no choice, but unfortunately some al-Qaida recruits in Iraq do not seem to have any sort of empathy, I make it clear though that Bin Laden the leader of al-Qaida is strongly against the lack of empathy of some of his recruits, more specifically those who attack sunni neighborhoods! These Iraqi al-Qaida recruits are some of the longest branches on the grand al-Qaida tree, meaning that Bin Laden cannot controle them!

The fact that a muslim in this world needs america to survive bothers me, so yes it does bother me but they have no choice as it stands today!
I read about that. Abu Musab al Zarqawi left us with a rather detailed account before he was martyred, and he said the Shia had a free-for-all almost immediately after the invasion - they took something like 30 Masjids and rounded up all the scholars. There were no media reports at all... and the only Shia leader who stood up against this was al Sadr, but they (unknown coverts) found a way to trick him into fighting the Sunnis. I caught on to that - and let's just say, when they tried to pull that off a second time... he didn't fall for the trick.

As for Osama bin Laden, it's easy for him to have empathy... he doesn't have to deal with the day in and day out struggle. I have more empathy for Zarqawi for telling it like it is. He said he didn't want to fight the Shia but they came into the Sunni neighborhoods and went ballistic on them. That, by the way, was BEFORE he changed the name of his group to Al Qaeda in Iraq... so how could he have empathy? He showed his compassion once - but that got him absolutely nowhere!

Also, I wouldn't accept blood money from killers and call it a good business deal.

The Ninth Scribe
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krypton6
02-08-2008, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
As for Osama bin Laden, it's easy for him to have empathy... he doesn't have to deal with the day in and day out struggle. I have more empathy for Zarqawi for telling it like it is. He said he didn't want to fight the Shia but they came into the Sunni neighborhoods and went ballistic on them. That, by the way, was BEFORE he changed the name of his group to Al Qaeda in Iraq... so how could he have empathy? He showed his compassion once - but that got him absolutely nowhere!
Bin Laden doesnt have to deal with struggle? This man has bin chased for god knows how long, he have fought hundreds of battles. He gave up on a luxury life and ignored his own fealings in order to help others. He lost his entire family and he knew that he would lose them but he chose to look beyond his own fealings. If anyone has struggled for the past 108 years, it is him!

Also, I wouldn't accept blood money from killers and call it a good business deal.[/QUOTE]

Zarqawi had empathy, he was one of those who did not kill civilians.
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Ninth_Scribe
02-12-2008, 07:26 PM
[QUOTE=krypton6;911263]Bin Laden doesnt have to deal with struggle? This man has bin chased for god knows how long, he have fought hundreds of battles. He gave up on a luxury life and ignored his own fealings in order to help others. He lost his entire family and he knew that he would lose them but he chose to look beyond his own fealings. If anyone has struggled for the past 108 years, it is him! Zarqawi had empathy, he was one of those who did not kill civilians.

According to Omar bin Laden, his father is well taken care of. When asked if he (Omar) thought his father would ever be caught, he told the reporter it would never happen because those people who protect Osama are loyal to God and would rather die first... so I have no reason to worry for him. He's safe and he'll stay that way.

Also, he did not "lose" his family any more than Abu Musab did. They were forced to renounce him - and he knows that! Zarqawi's family was forced to do the same, but when he was martyred, the truth came out and they called him a martyr whether the king liked it or not. They would have given him a glorious funeral too had it not been for the fact that a Muslim king broke the law and deprived a Muslim of his burial rights - something that still infuriates me to this day.

Anyway, you and I have no argument. Just different points of view and we go about solving different problems. They all lead to the same place.

The Ninth Scribe
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krypton6
02-12-2008, 09:21 PM
[QUOTE=Ninth_Scribe;911625]According to Omar bin Laden, his father is well taken care of. When asked if he (Omar) thought his father would ever be caught, he told the reporter it would never happen because those people who protect Osama are loyal to God and would rather die first... so I have no reason to worry for him. He's safe and he'll stay that way."

He is well taken care of in the way that the people surrounding Bin Laden are all loyal to him. There's no doubt that physically Bin Laden is living a very tough life.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Also, he did not "lose" his family any more than Abu Musab did. They were forced to renounce him - and he knows that! Zarqawi's family was forced to do the same, but when he was martyred, the truth came out and they called him a martyr whether the king liked it or not. They would have given him a glorious funeral too had it not been for the fact that a Muslim king broke the law and deprived a Muslim of his burial rights - something that still infuriates me to this day.
A muslim king, what muslim king?

While Zarqawi visited his family many times and lived with them for days, Bin Laden have not seen his family since 2001!
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wilberhum
02-13-2008, 10:51 AM
civilians are killed in a war, this is a first. :(
And OBL is god's best. :hiding:
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Muezzin
02-13-2008, 12:36 PM
'What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?'

- Ghandi
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barney
02-14-2008, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
'What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?'

- Ghandi

None whatsoever. They are dead.

For those that live on however, it makes the (literal)world of difference.
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Muezzin
02-14-2008, 09:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
None whatsoever. They are dead.

For those that live on however, it makes the (literal)world of difference.
The quote included orphans and the homeless. :)

Oh well. War is hell.
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Ninth_Scribe
02-14-2008, 09:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by krypton6
He is well taken care of in the way that the people surrounding Bin Laden are all loyal to him. There's no doubt that physically Bin Laden is living a very tough life.

A muslim king, what muslim king?
The ruler of Jordan (King Abdullah) - he refused the request by Abu Musab's family. He said he didn't want Zarqawi to be buried in Jordan because he didn't want his body to "stain Jordanian soil." So, I cursed him. Let him spend his eternity with all those so-called stainless souls that were buried there!

My apologies for the misunderstanding concerning Osama. I thought he had a means of communication with his family, and I thought two of his sons were still with him. As for hardships - we're all suffering. The only ones who are enjoying life now are the wealthy who don't care about any of these matters.

Ideally, I would like to form a council of scholars so we can settle these matters once and for all, beginning with the new state that has been called Israel... I don't see how any of these matters can be resolved in any other way and Osama does have a valid case, even by Jewish holy law. I had once asked for round-the-table amnesty for all the fighters, but that didn't work. Now I'm asking for round-the-table amnesty for all the scholars. That's actually looking good, but it goes nowhere unless I can get the U.S. and U.N. to back off and mind their own business for awhile.

Well, that's my only shot in the dark. Prayers are always welcome.

The Ninth Scribe
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Ninth_Scribe
02-14-2008, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
And OBL is god's best. :hiding:
Allow me to shed some light on the subject for you. Osama bin Laden is the ONLY one that can declare a truce. If he dies BEFORE a truce is made - the wars we've seen will pale in comparison to the ones that will follow! We will have traveled beyond the point of no return. No SANE person wants that!

There, my prophecy for the day!

The Ninth Scribe
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krypton6
02-15-2008, 10:51 AM
America can declare a truce, Bin Laden can too but I really doubt that he will and I hope that he wont, because at least he is fighting for the better.
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krypton6
02-16-2008, 10:38 PM
He did more harm to the middle east than what he did any good for and because of that I dont like him too much, I just want what he want which is a free middle east.
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Ninth_Scribe
02-17-2008, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by krypton6
He did more harm to the middle east than what he did any good for and because of that I dont like him too much, I just want what he want which is a free middle east.
And that's exactly what I meant when I said his complaint was poorly presented. Please, DEFINE what you mean by a free Middle East?

I understand the concept as it's applied to "after" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but I'm still not 100% on the concept BEFORE all this 911 crap happened, except that the issue stems from the state that has been called Israel.

I can deal with that state, but I have no idea how Muslims define a "free Middle East" or what they expect for a satisfactory out-come because Muslims don't seem to agree on what the out-come itself should look like.

You just have no idea how frustrating it is, when viewing all the histories, to be looking in from the outside! Some Muslims like America and want us there, like Saudi Arabia. Others hate us there and hate our influence, even though we never hated or feared the Muslim influence. If we do something to please one Muslim country, we wind up pissing off another so we're always confused - or at least we appear to be.

For me, personally, this is a major challenge because I hear every dispute. No Muslim scholar has a problem complaining to me because I'm willing to hear them out. The problem? They'll all talk to me - but they won't talk to each other!

So... what if Israel disappeared? Would that please the Middle East? No. Why? Because the scholars have differences of opinion on what a free Middle East would look like - they're not all on the same page and they don't even trust each other enough to Assemble under one roof and work it all out. It's all very confused!

For instance, Osama recently published the following statement:

I contest this unjust statement and remind you all that the morality and culture of the Holocaust belongs to YOUR culture (Western), not OUR culture. In fact, burning living beings is forbidden in our religion… even if they are as small as an ant, so what of man? The holocaust had been carried out in the middle of Europe! Had this happened closer to our countries, most of them would have been saved, by taking refuge with us. My proof for this accusation is found in your history, when the Spanish set up the horrible courts of the Inquisition to try both Muslims and Jews. The Jews only found safe shelter by taking refuge in our countries and that is why the Jewish community in Morocco is one of the largest communities in the world today. They are alive – with us – and we have not incinerated them… nor shall we ever incinerate them! Also, your Christian brothers have lived among us for 14 centuries! In Egypt alone there are millions of Christians and we have not and shall not ever incinerate them!
Now, what am I to make of this? Incineration is what happens when you fire a missile into a building. Incineration happens when you set off a powerful bomb in a marketplace. So what is he trying to say here? Was he trying to state that, should the U.S. withdraw it's defense of Israel, there would be no slaughter of the Israeli people? It sounds that way. It also seemed that he did not object to a small Jewish community there, similar to the ones in Egypt and Morocco. The problem? Osama does not speak for ALL Muslims.

So, the definition of "free Middle East" is impossible for anyone to understand, Muslims included, since some do and some don't agree with Osama. Some do and don't agree with Hezbollah. Some do and some don't agree with... you see where this goes?

The Jews have the same problem. There is a serious dispute concerning whether that state violates Jewish holy law. I say it does, but there are others who say it doesn't. I accuse them of picking and choosing between the laws to suit their purpose: They say they don't have to obey the laws of the international court because they are only required to obey holy law. On the other hand, the presence of that state is a violation of holy law.

As much as I'd love to see the end of the matter, I somehow feel it will never happen because the complaints just go around in circles like this!

The Ninth Scribe
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Cognescenti
02-18-2008, 04:23 AM
Attributed to OBl by Ninth:

I contest this unjust statement and remind you all that the morality and culture of the Holocaust belongs to YOUR culture (Western), not OUR culture. In fact, burning living beings is forbidden in our religion… even if they are as small as an ant, so what of man? The holocaust had been carried out in the middle of Europe! Had this happened closer to our countries, most of them would have been saved, by taking refuge with us. My proof for this accusation is found in your history, when the Spanish set up the horrible courts of the Inquisition to try both Muslims and Jews. The Jews only found safe shelter by taking refuge in our countries and that is why the Jewish community in Morocco is one of the largest communities in the world today. They are alive – with us – and we have not incinerated them… nor shall we ever incinerate them! Also, your Christian brothers have lived among us for 14 centuries! In Egypt alone there are millions of Christians and we have not and shall not ever incinerate them!
What a guy, eh?! Fortunately, so as not to upset his lame rationalizations and excuses for the purposeful murder of thousands of innocents, most of those being incinerated in the WTC chose to jump to their deaths.

Are none of the Muslims here at least slightly embarrased by the OBL supporter among you?

Of course, this post will likely be erased as are about 90% of my posts reagrding good ole OBL
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wilberhum
02-18-2008, 04:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Attributed to OBl by Ninth:



What a guy, eh?! Fortunately, so as not to upset his lame rationalizations and excuses for the purposeful murder of thousands of innocents, most of those being incinerated in the WTC chose to jump to their deaths.

Are none of the Muslims here at least slightly embarrased by the OBL supporter among you?

Of course, this post will likely be erased as are about 90% of my posts reagrding good ole OBL
I just had a post deleted because it is unnecessary to respond to OBL supporters.

If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\
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Roasted Cashew
02-18-2008, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\
Because you have a brain and not stupid. Is it too much to ask? Of course Osama has supporters amongst us. If he didn't would there be Al-Qaeda??? Do you have common sense? Just because one of us supports him you feel right to discard all the others(majority) who don't. Wow, this is so helpful. Let these stupid Osama supporters rot and die. Though I agree that people who respond to OBL supporters should not have their posts deleted. UNLESS one of our moderator is also an OBL supporter. Now that would be revelation!
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wilberhum
02-18-2008, 06:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by hmmm5
Because you have a brain and not stupid. Is it too much to ask? Of course Osama has supporters amongst us. If he didn't would there be Al-Qaeda??? Do you have common sense? Just because one of us supports him you feel right to discard all the others(majority) who don't. Wow, this is so helpful. Let these stupid Osama supporters rot and die. Though I agree that people who respond to OBL supporters should not have their posts deleted. UNLESS one of our moderator is also an OBL supporter. Now that would be revelation!
You think I have a brain and I'm not stupid. You have made my day.

But do remember that a few do not represent the majority and the majority does not represent all when you address other topics.



Fake picture. Burt and OBL are not friends. :D
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Cabdullahi
02-18-2008, 06:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I just had a post deleted because it is unnecessary to respond to OBL supporters.

If Muslims don't condemn OBL, Why should we assume he does not represent them? :-\
Time and time again we are being told that there is this man hiding in the caves that we cannot find with all the satellite and gps technology america has. im starting to believe that there isnt even an OBL the intelligence of you and i is being insulted how could i believe that a man in a cave with probably just some water and rifle mastermind 9/11 WITHOUT some help by america itself lol:D
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wilberhum
02-18-2008, 06:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
Time and time again we are being told that there is this man hiding in the caves that we cannot find with all the satellite and gps technology america has. im starting to believe that there isnt even an OBL the intelligence of you and i is being insulted how could i believe that a man in a cave with probably just some water and rifle mastermind 9/11 WITHOUT some help by america itself lol:D
You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.
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Cabdullahi
02-18-2008, 07:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.
OK MY man wilberhum i dont know what ur saying about intelligently looking at things but it seems at ur age u cant look either, america captured saddam hussein in his own backyard it didnt take them long to do so, why because when it matters about oil and the countries resources everything seems to be done with ease if they want to end terrorist movement why dont they kill the shepherd and the sheep will flee but who wants to go after a man thats alone in a place where there is probably no oil.

Listen sir!! plz explain to me this because why did america make business with saddam hussein selling him weapon only to seize him 10-15 years later and what about the four non arabs cheering and screaming loud with joy in newyork bridge just after moments of the twin towers collapsing and why it disapeared from the media.
thank you sir
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wilberhum
02-18-2008, 07:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
OK MY man wilberhum i dont know what ur saying about intelligently looking at things but it seems at ur age u cant look either, america captured saddam hussein in his own backyard it didnt take them long to do so, why because when it matters about oil and the countries resources everything seems to be done with ease if they want to end terrorist movement why dont they kill the shepherd and the sheep will flee but who wants to go after a man thats alone in a place where there is probably no oil.

Listen sir!! plz explain to me this because why did america make business with saddam hussein selling him weapon only to seize him 10-15 years later and what about the four non arabs cheering and screaming loud with joy in newyork bridge just after moments of the twin towers collapsing and why it disapeared from the media.
thank you sir
In stead of some long dribble about assorted junk, why don't you point out where I have been so stupid that I have denied reality.

It is not my function in life to debunk conspiracy theories that have been debunked a thousand times.
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Roasted Cashew
02-18-2008, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
You have made it obvious that you have no ability to intelligently look at anything.

Some day you will find out that ignorance is not bliss.
Wilberhum, it should be clear to you by now that most Al-Qaeda and Taliban symphatizers are usually those who believe in conspiracy theories. Those who believe that "mossad" might be behind it and those who therefore assume that OBL is a victim of "............". My vocab is not that good.
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Cabdullahi
02-18-2008, 10:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
In stead of some long dribble about assorted junk, why don't you point out where I have been so stupid that I have denied reality.

It is not my function in life to debunk conspiracy theories that have been debunked a thousand times.
It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilberhum im out!!!!!!
Reply

AhlaamBella
02-18-2008, 10:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilderhum im out!!!!!!

*slowly* Breathe, brother breathe :)

Some good points there though :thumbs_up
Reply

Keltoi
02-18-2008, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
It looks like i need to give you a history lesson America is the biggest terrorist country they might not be practising theyr terrorism as much as they used to do centuries ago,

the massacre of innocent indians by YOUR forefathers you came u saw u conqered while making a genocide raping women and the mistreatment of children simply because the whites thought they were superior and the indians are dirty,the europeans came with guns and cannons similar to what so called muslim terrorists would use but just alil outdated

And what about the enslavement of africans who were oppressed for four centuries thats 400 years not 10 not 20 but 400,i dont want to be disrespectful but considering your age ur grandad probably owned a slave and probably and most definetly cause trauma to him

americans have a dark history that will always overshadow them, these terrorist attacks that were carried out for centuries are horrendous

America started terrorism and will always live and experience terror
it looks like the chicken is coming home to roost

thank you wilderhum im out!!!!!!
How do you know who Wilberhum's forefather's are? In any event, that was a nice rambling post full of self-righteous indignation, but hardly a "history lesson". In case you failed to notice in your study of history, Muslims were just as much if not more involved in the African slave trade as anyone else...and for a much longer period of time I might add.

As for America "starting terrorism"....well that is so proposterous I don't think it really deserves a reply.
Reply

Cabdullahi
02-18-2008, 01:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
How do you know who Wilberhum's forefather's are? In any event, that was a nice rambling post full of self-righteous indignation, but hardly a "history lesson". In case you failed to notice in your study of history, Muslims were just as much if not more involved in the African slave trade as anyone else...and for a much longer period of time I might add.

As for America "starting terrorism"....well that is so proposterous I don't think it really deserves a reply.
No! you are making a mistake it was the arabs who where involved in the slave trade THE muslims were involved but gave them first class treatment compared to the evil europeans and americans

"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them."

Islam forbade the traditional practice of enslaving free individuals by capturing them and selling them into slavery. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

"There are three categories of people against whom I myself shall be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment. Of those three, one is he who enslaves free men, then sells him and eats this money…"
this is what sister fatima posted that was in another thread that u probrably and arrogantly ignored because it conflicts with what you think about muslims that u think they are a bunch of fanatics


Listen brother the real truth is evident its a shame that is hard for u to grasp it.Its seems that you would use any sort of irrational excuse to get your point across this is pure demagogy,i told u simple and plain that americans an europeans if u look at the history that they are the fathers of terrorism but as a typical demagog u will say but the muslims did it too

Thank you
Reply

Keltoi
02-18-2008, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
No! you are making a mistake it was the arabs who where involved in the slave trade THE muslims were involved but gave them first class treatment compared to the evil europeans and americans

"Your servants and your slaves are your brothers. Anyone who has slaves should give them from what he eats and wears. He should not charge them with work beyond their capabilities. If you must set them to hard work, in any case, I advise you to help them."

Islam forbade the traditional practice of enslaving free individuals by capturing them and selling them into slavery. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

"There are three categories of people against whom I myself shall be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgment. Of those three, one is he who enslaves free men, then sells him and eats this money…"
this is what sister fatima posted that was in another thread that u probrably and arrogantly ignored because it conflicts with what you think about muslims that u think they are a bunch of fanatics


Listen brother the real truth is evident its a shame that is hard for u to grasp it.Its seems that you would use any sort of irrational excuse to get your point across this is pure demagogy,i told u simple and plain that americans an europeans if u look at the history that they are the fathers of terrorism but as a typical demagog u will say but the muslims did it too

Thank you
I was simply pointing out the reality that America was far from the only country involved in the slave trade. Regardless of what it says in the Quran, there were plenty of self-described Muslims who were deeply involved in the practice. Slavery was wrong regardless of who practiced it, and pointing fingers at the U.S. and ignoring the larger reality does an injustice to those enslaved globally.

As for who is the "father" of terrorism, that is an absurd line of reasoning to begin with. Terrorism, meaning the use of violence against civilians is as old as mankind itself.
Reply

Roasted Cashew
02-18-2008, 03:30 PM
I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg
Reply

Cabdullahi
02-18-2008, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hmmm5
I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg
I do not want to blame anyone here, yes wilderhum is right about some muslims using their religion as an excuse to carry out terrorism or whatever but you must not forget and im addressing wilderhum here that while so called muslim extremists use their religion to cause terror,western countries do the same exactly but only the excuse here is 'we will bring democracy and freedom' they use this as a free annual oil withdrawal pass.
everybody now admits the iraq war was a mistake alot of MP's in britain make these confessions but not the proud americans they see the iraq war as a success simply because there pockets are swollen and they are fairly satisfied
And what about abu ghraib prison the evils of america echoed superbly through the incidents that happened
time and time again all i hear is muslims do this muslims oppress but what occured in abu ghraib if that isnt pure oppression i dont know what liberation looks like!

thank you
Reply

Keltoi
02-18-2008, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hmmm5
I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg
America is responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world? How convenient.
Reply

Cognescenti
02-18-2008, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hmmm5
I think it's hard for Americans to grasp the fact that their foreign policies are responsible for all the Muslim related terrorism in the world. If it was all about killing the infidels, Why aren't Muslim terrorists killing them in Canada or even China? WHY AMERICA. Because "with great powers, comes great responsibilities" and currently America is abusing it's powers by supporting the filthy, brutal and accursed regime of Israel.

What motivated the 9/11 hijackers? See testimony most didn't
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bm2GPoFfg
You are right! It is hard for Americans to accept that...because it is complete and unadulerated bovine excrement.

You do; howeve, bring up a valid point about understanding the motivation of the 9-11 hijackers. As a great nation, we do have the obligation to understand better their motivation....so that we can identify all who share their beliefs and cause them either to cease to exist or to decide that martyrdom isn't all that attractive.

You want Israel to go away? That is your job, not mine. Good luck with that, pal.
Reply

krypton6
02-19-2008, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
And that's exactly what I meant when I said his complaint was poorly presented. Please, DEFINE what you mean by a free Middle East?
There's only one concept of a free middle east and it goes: a middle east where the leaders do not handshake with Bush, where they do not handshake with any israeli, where the leaders are taking care of their people, a middle east where leaders can disagree with america without being captured, tortured and killed, a middle east where "Israel" no longer exist.. And I could go on for ever but its quite simple really, you just have to put yourself in the shoes of some middle eastern family and ask yourself what do we want?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I understand the concept as it's applied to "after" the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but I'm still not 100% on the concept BEFORE all this 911 crap happened, except that the issue stems from the state that has been called Israel.
Before 9/11 Bin Laden offered america peace so many times but kept being ignored. He wanted america to stop supporting "Israel" and the arab dictators. The arab dictators are the ones who recognize "Israel" and support "Israel", these dictators are still ruling only because of america supporting them. Bin Laden is against these dictators but he cannot do anything about for as long as america is behind them. He still want's america to stop supporting these dictators and instead let the people chose their leaders regardless of wether that may be a leader who is against "Israel".

America should stop backing up these middle eastern dictators and they should stop taking care of "Israel", perhaps its that simple!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I can deal with that state, but I have no idea how Muslims define a "free Middle East" or what they expect for a satisfactory out-come because Muslims don't seem to agree on what the out-come itself should look like.
Well most of the middle easterns perhaps 90-95% all have the same concept. The rest are quite honestly betrayers who support "Israel", typically christians who have bin attacked by a bunch of muslim criminals and then blaim all muslims instead of blaiming who ever it may be that have brought all the unstability to their country, resulting in this kind of act. Other than the christians, its the rich people who seem to have another concept of a free middle east, their concept of a free middle east is an american middle east because as long as america is there they will become richer (while the other 90-95% are starving).

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
You just have no idea how frustrating it is, when viewing all the histories, to be looking in from the outside! Some Muslims like America and want us there, like Saudi Arabia. Others hate us there and hate our influence, even though we never hated or feared the Muslim influence. If we do something to please one Muslim country, we wind up pissing off another so we're always confused - or at least we appear to be.
The house of Saud want's you there, the people quite honestly hate america! When have you pleased any muslim in the middle east? You have pleased a bunch of betrayers who work for america but you have never pleased the other 90-95%.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
For me, personally, this is a major challenge because I hear every dispute. No Muslim scholar has a problem complaining to me because I'm willing to hear them out. The problem? They'll all talk to me - but they won't talk to each other!
Why are we talking about muslim scholars? Your making this religious which it isnt, this is more political I think!

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
So... what if Israel disappeared? Would that please the Middle East? No. Why? Because the scholars have differences of opinion on what a free Middle East would look like - they're not all on the same page and they don't even trust each other enough to Assemble under one roof and work it all out. It's all very confused!!
You cant work it out in the middle east. 90-95% of the middle easterns all live under a dictator not much different than Saddam. They arent allowed to give their opinion and the very few who are, the government will ignore.

The Ninth Scribe[/QUOTE]

I'll respond to the Bin Laden part when ever I can, just a bit busy right now. Perhaps if all americans were like you the world would be alright.
Reply

Muezzin
02-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Just once, for a change, it would be nice for a discussion about world politics not to end up in a slanging match. Closing threads is so distasteful. But it's got to be done, everybody's had their fun.

Thread closed.
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