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BleroX
02-06-2008, 12:52 PM
Assalamu Alykum.

41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

We notice that Allah tells us that the universe had been as smoke (Alright,has been prouved by science).
But the problem is not here. We understand that Allah spoke to the Earth when the uiverse was as smoke. Now, we know Earth did not exisit when the universe was smoke.

Some light please.
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------
02-06-2008, 01:06 PM
:salamext:

Can u ask ur question in simple english??
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
02-06-2008, 01:08 PM
the ayaah sounds like its saying that the smoke was before the earth, and the earth after the smoke.



Assalamu Alaikum


ask a scholar !
Reply

------
02-06-2008, 01:09 PM
:salamext:

Some Details of the Creation of this Universe Here - Ibn Kathir Tafsir
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Ummu Sufyaan
02-06-2008, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

Can u ask ur question in simple english??
:sl:
as far as i get it, hes just asking how did allah speak to the earth, when it was still smoke. i.e there was no earth yet. am i making sense, or have i confused you even more lol
:sl:
Reply

Isambard
02-06-2008, 03:13 PM
Thats a good question...
Reply

BleroX
02-06-2008, 06:13 PM
Sorry for my English.

When the universe was smoke, there was no Earth ... so I don't understand.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-06-2008, 06:29 PM
:salamext:


We know that when a nebula (in Latin it means mist or something smokey [dukh means smoke in arabic]) is formed - through it, stars are formed, and so are planets.


So why couldn't it be that Allah emphasised on the earth to show us that the earth was also formed through these nebulae? (plural of nebula) From which the heavens and other planets were formed. Maybe to give us an explanation that the Earth was also formed through this.


Allah knows best.



I hope this is useful, it just shows the basic big bang belief with verses from Qur'an, and it doesn't go into depth so you might be interested:

http://dawahtips.blogspot.com/2008/0...rspective.html


I just quickly writ it up, and i hope it benefits insha Allah.
Reply

sur
02-06-2008, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by BleroX
Assalamu Alykum.

41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it(Sky) and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

We notice that Allah tells us that the universe had been as smoke (Alright,has been prouved by science).
But the problem is not here. We understand that Allah spoke to the Earth when the uiverse was as smoke. Now, we know Earth did not exisit when the universe was smoke.

Some light please.
Allah ordered the Earth & The Sky to come into existance from that smoke.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sur
Allah ordered the Earth & The Sky to come into existance from that smoke.
Sky had existed (in the form of smoke..) before he ordered it and the earth to come together.

41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it(Sky) and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
Reply

sur
02-06-2008, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Sky had existed (in the form of smoke..) before he ordered it and the earth to come together.

41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it(Sky) and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."


like u existed in form of sperm & ovum.
then "U" were formed out of them.
But sperm & Ova were NOT "U".
So i say "U" were "comprehended" when "U" were still a sperm & ovum.


Similarly Sky(like "U") was "Comprehended" when the thing it was to be fromed from, was smog(like sperm & ovum). Then order was issued that sky & earh be formed from smog.(Like "U" to be formed from sperm & ovum)
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 08:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sur
like u existed in form of sperm & ovum.
then "U" were formed out of them.
But sperm & Ova were NOT "U".
So i say "U" were "comprehended" when "U" were still a sperm & ovum.


Similarly Sky(like "U") was "Comprehended" when the thing it was to be fromed from, was smog(like sperm & ovum). Then order was issued that sky & earh be formed from smog.(Like "U" to be formed from sperm & ovum)
The verse speaks of skies from the beginning..
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 08:34 PM
(11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on
abridged version from http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...2330046&sr=8-1


:w:
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truemuslim
02-06-2008, 08:36 PM
^ jazakallah
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
(11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on
abridged version from http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...2330046&sr=8-1
:w:
I don't think this explains the original question...
The verses seems to imply the skies (or its cosmic connotation) and the earth came to being simoultaniously..
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 09:10 PM
this is the explanation of verse 11, abridged.. you are certainly welcome to render to it the meaning of your choosing, but again, this falls on the shoulders of the word 'thouma', instead of the word 'wa' as is used in the verses..
one to predicate 'then' the other 'and'..

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
this is the explanation of verse 11, abridged.. you are certainly welcome to render to it the meaning of your choosing, but again, this falls on the shoulders of the word 'thouma', instead of the word 'wa' as is used in the verses..
one to predicate 'then' the other 'and'..

peace
41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it(Sky) and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

Does "it" denote the same sky as in the beginning of the verse, the sky that had been smoke, the sky that muslims claim to be the universe?
If not, how is the disctincion made?
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 09:24 PM
sama or samwat (plural) has many meanings..
could denote sky, can also denote lower heaven
we don't have the pronoun 'it' in Arabic... objects, people, things are rendered a gender..

other than that I am not sure what the question is? seems quite clear in Weiss's translation and commentary?

peace
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
02-06-2008, 09:27 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

The statement of the existence of a gaseous mass with fine particles, for this is how the word 'smoke' (dukan in Arabic) is to be interpreted. Smoke is generally made up of a gaseous substratum, plus, in more or less stable suspension, fine particles that may belong to solid and even liquid states of matter at high or low temperature.

The reference to a separation process (fatq) of an primary single mass whose elements were initially fused together (ratq). It must be noted that in Arabic 'fatq' is the action of breaking, diffusing, separating, and that 'ratq' is the action of fusing or binding together elements to make a homogenous whole.


Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
sama or samwat (plural) has many meanings..
could denote sky, can also denote lower heaven
we don't have the pronoun 'it' in Arabic... objects, people, things are rendered a gender..

other than that I am not sure what the question is? seems quite clear in Weiss's translation and commentary?

peace
(11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on
It says he applied his design to the skies.
I've just noticed the Earth had already been creted at that point...(or at the same time (thumma thingy))
Then he told the earth and the skies (which I think are the same as those at the ebgining of the verse, Weiss doesn't say otherwise...) to come together or come into existence (which seems absurd as the earth had been already there...)
Muslims claim the smoky sky denotes universe (miracle stuff), which seems to be impossible, seeing that the earth has been created before or simoultanisouly...
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 09:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It says he applied his design to the skies.
Ok
I've just noticed the Earth had already been creted at that point...
the sentence starts with thouma (again) denoting 'then', try to follow the sequence in full and not just the verse in question, it will make much better sense, whether or not concurrent or eons aparts, makes no difference whatsoever!

Then he told the earth and the skies (which I think are the same as those at the ebgining of the verse, Weiss doesn't say otherwise...) to come together or come into existence (which seems absurd as the earth had been already there...)
I am afraid you' ve lost me here? what exactly is your question and why is is absured? when you stick your head out do you not see sky? it isn't slightly askew to the right while we look at a dark void?....

Muslims claim the smoky sky denotes universe (miracle stuff), which seems to be impossible, seeing that the earth has been created before or simoultanisouly...
You have to explain to me what is or isn't impossible? you have no way of testing how old the sky is, and who pre-dates what.. in the sura it is quite clear the sequence, universe first, then its adornment which of course include the earth..

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
the sentence starts with thouma (again) denoting 'then', try to follow the sequence in full and not just the verse in question, it will make much better sense, whether or not concurrent or eons aparts, makes no difference whatsoever!
Is it then or and?
It does make a difference. Had the earth been created before the smoky skies, which muslims claim to denote the primary state of the universe, the verse would make no sense.
I think we had a debate about aeons...:sunny:

I am afraid you' ve lost me here? what exactly is your question and why is is absured? when you stick your head out do you not see sky? it isn't slightly askew to the right while we look at a dark void?....
Weiss' comentary says he told the Earth and the skies to come into existence which makes no sense if the Earth had already existed - which I am currently not sure about.

You have to explain to me what is or isn't impossible? you have no way of testing how old the sky is, and who pre-dates what.. in the sura it is quite clear the sequence, universe first, then its adornment which of course include the earth..
Muslims claim the smoky skies denotes the first stages of the universe.. therefore it ahs to be older than the Earth.

format_quote Originally Posted by miracles site
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).1 This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’ (see figures 10 and 11).

The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)

9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask.
11. Then He turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

in the sura it is quite clear the sequence, universe first, then its adornment which of course include the earth..
Call me stupid, but I can't see it...

peace
Peace
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 10:09 PM
Wish, you'd quote individually, so I can follow it better..


Is it then or and?
thouma=then!
It does make a difference. Had the earth been created before the smoky skies, which muslims claim to denote the primary state of the universe, the verse would make no sense.
I think we had a debate about aeons...
clearely the verses state sky before verse..
your debate as per eons was your own subjective view and not as commonly understood by Muslims..
I quote this from the Quran
chapter 3:7
3: 7

He it is who has bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, containing messages that are clear in and by themselves - and these are the essence of the divine writ - as well as others that are allegorical.* Now those whose hearts are given to swerving from the truth go after that part of the divine writ** which has been expressed in allegory, seeking out [what is bound to create] confusion,*** and seeking [to arrive at] its final meaning [in an arbitrary manner]; but none save God knows its final meaning.**** Hence, those who are deeply rooted in knowledge say:

"We believe in it; the whole [of the divine writ] is from our Sustainer - albeit none takes this to heart save those who are endowed with insight.



*The above passage may be regarded as a key to the understanding of the Qur'an. Tabari identifies the ayat muhkamat ("messages that are clear in and by themselves") with what the philologists and jurists describe as nass - namely, ordinances or statements which are self-evident (zahir) by virtue of their wording (cf. Lisan at-'Arab, art. nass). Consequently, Tabari regards as ayat muhkamat only those statements or ordinances of the Qur'an which do not admit of more than one interpretation (which does not, of course, preclude differences of opinion regarding the implications of a particular ayah muhkamah). In my opinion, however, it would be too dogmatic to regard any passage of the Qur'an which does not conform to the above definition as mutashabih ("allegorical"): for there are many statements in the Qur'an which are liable to more than one interpretation but are, nevertheless, not allegorical - just as there are many expressions and passages which, despite their allegorical formulation, reveal to the searching intellect only one possible meaning. For this reason, the ayat mutashabihat may be defined as those passages of the Qur'an which are expressed in a figurative manner, with a meaning that is metaphorically implied but not directly, in so many words, stated. The ayat muhkamat are described as the "essence of the divine writ" (umm al-kitab) because they comprise the fundamental principles underlying its message and, in particular, its ethical and social teachings: and it is only on the basis of these clearly enunciated principles that the allegorical passages can be correctly interpreted. (For a more detailed discussion of symbolism and allegory in the Qur'an. see Appendix 1.)



**Lit., "that of it".
I am afraid you' ve lost me here? what exactly is your question and why is is absured? when you stick your head out do you not see sky? it isn't slightly askew to the right while we look at a dark void?....
Weiss' comentary says he told the Earth and the skies to come into existence which makes no sense if the Earth had already existed - which I am currently not sure about.
But the Earth hadn't been already in existence!

You have to explain to me what is or isn't impossible? you have no way of testing how old the sky is, and who pre-dates what.. in the sura it is quite clear the sequence, universe first, then its adornment which of course include the earth..
Muslims claim the smoky skies denotes the first stages of the universe.. therefore it ahs to be older than the Earth.
And it is!


Quote:
Originally Posted by miracles site
The science of modern cosmology, observational and theoretical, clearly indicates that, at one point in time, the whole universe was nothing but a cloud of ‘smoke’ (i.e. an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).1 This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientists now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that ‘smoke’ (see figures 10 and 11).

The illuminating stars we see at night were, just as was the whole universe, in that ‘smoke’ material. God has said in the Quran:

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke... (Quran, 41:11)


9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein its sustenance, in four Days, alike for (all) who ask.
11. Then He turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
12. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

in the sura it is quite clear the sequence, universe first, then its adornment which of course include the earth..
Call me stupid, but I can't see it...
lol.. I don't call people names.. folks will often see and foster views that support what they want to see in a particular argument!

There are schools to be a Muslim scholar, not everyone is a scholar, I reckon a handful on this forum actually are.. it is like going to med school or law school..
you don't just google someone's headache and come up with a reason, anymore than you read a passage and render it the meaning of your choosing.. we need to ask 'ahel il3ilm'

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
Wish, you'd quote individually, so I can follow it better..
okie dokie..

thouma=then!
That means the planning/formation of the skies took palce after the formation of the earth...right?

clearely the verses state sky before verse..
How?
your debate as per eons was your own subjective view and not as commonly understood by Muslims..
All I said was that the Quran reads "days", the interpretation may of course differ.

I quote this from the Quran
chapter 3:7
Are you suggesting (one of) the verses we've been discussing is an alegory?
Or are you trying to say I don't have the insight?^o):D

But the Earth hadn't been already in existence!
Hmmm, I don't know, it says it created the Earth in 4 days, then designed the skies, told them and the earth either to come together or to come to existence (which I find odd, as explained above) and then it took him 2 days to complete the skies/heavens. Now, I am aware there might be thummas and was, but I think the whole process is supposed to have lasted 6 days and it is evident that the skis, which you claim to be the universe, was created either simoultaniously or after the Earth.
lol.. I don't call people name.. but people will often see what they want in a particular argument!
Even muslims?
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
okie dokie..
ahhhhh mazing.. thank you


That means the planning/formation of the skies took palce after the formation of the earth...right?
No the reverse..

How?
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SCIENCE-RELIGION DIALOGUE
Spring 2003


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Table of Contents
ISLAMIC CONCEPT OF CREATION OF UNIVERSE, BIG BANG AND SCIENCE-RELIGION INTERACTION
Prof. Faheem Ashraf*



The picture of universe provided by the Big Bang Theory is fairly accurate. According to this theory our universe came into existence about 15 billion years ago in a violent explosion. Quantum effects like quantum fluctuation caused the generation of energy from almost nothing. The energy was spread uniformly. Due to quantum uncertainty and other effects the uniformity was broken and there emerged the anisotropies. These anisotropies during inflation period expanded into galactic sizes. While the universe was expanding it was cooling as well. This cooling has caused the formation of different particles—matter formation. When the energy got sufficiently low, the particles like neutron and protons combined to make primordial gases. These gases due to anisotropies started to concentrate in some regions of universe giving rise to formation of galaxies and stars. This description of creation of universe is supported both by experimental discoveries and mathematical formulations. But there are some very interesting questions like what happened before the Big Bang and what determine the properties of universe or the initial conditions? These questions are partly answered by quantum gravity, to be more precise, the Hawking—Hartley’s ‘No Boundary Proposal’, which says that universe has no initial or final boundaries and the universe is self generated.

There is another key question. It has been evident since long that if our physical constants have been slightly different then the life on the Earth would not have been possible. Why the physical constants have the value they have, or what made it that physical constants have such values to make life possible in this universe. Moreover, the overall chemical composition of the universe was determined by the physical conditions during the first few seconds of the Big Bang. For example, the elements on which life depends such as Carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and Iron are the products of nuclear fusion reactions within the stars if the initial condition would have been different from formation of stars; nuclear fusion and supernova which distributed these would not have been possible. Also the processes by which the chemical elements are formed are governed very precisely by the strengths of four fundamental physical interactions: gravitation, electromagnetism, weak and strong nuclear interactions. If the relative strengths of these forces were different, the resultant universe would have been different. For example, increasing the strong nuclear interaction by 3 % relative to electromagnetic interaction gives a cosmological model in which none of the known chemical elements could have been formed. Conversely, decreasing it by just 1 % gives a model in which Carbon atoms would be highly unstable. Both scenarios would preclude carbon-based life. Other tiny variation in these forces might have given rise to a universe which contained 100 % helium or one in which supernova explosion could not occur (since these explosions are though to be chief way in which the chemicals necessary for life are ejected from stars), these scenario too preclude the evolution of life. These ‘precisions’ in the various parameters, such as to give rise to life, are known as the ‘Anthropic coincidences’.

Last but not least what caused these physical laws to be applied in the universe or in other words wherefrom these laws came?

There is no obvious physical reason, in the Big Bang theory, to the questions just raised. But one thing is quite certain that according to laws of nature we know today that very small changes in any of these key parameters would have resulted in a grossly different universe. So the chance of life permitting universe would be vanishingly small as compared to all theoretically possible universes.

Such enigmas can be responded either by appealing to God that the almighty God has set the values of the physical constants such that the life should be possible or by invoking the ‘Anthropic Principle’. The first option is referred to as Divine Action at Quantum Level. The other option though avoid direct appeal to God, maintains that according to quantum Gravity—No Boundary Proposal, they are millions of different quantum mechanically possible universes, each with different values of physical constants. Only those universes with suitable physical constants will contain intelligent life.

It is obvious from the above discussion that the cosmology, like all other sciences, has deep religious implications since it specifically deals with creation of universe and emergence of life which are central questions of every religion. Scientific discoveries always challenged beliefs of all religions. Let see what is the Islamic concept of creation of universe, and how have the challenges and implications, that have been posed by Big Bang Theory and modern science, been responded by Muslims and Christians scholars?

Let see, first of all, what is Islamic concept of creation of universe and how Modern Muslims thinkers and scholars tackle the question of Science—Religion interaction.

ISLAMIC CONCEPT OF CREATION OF UNIVERSE
One thing must be understood that The Quran is not a text book of Astronomy or Physics. As Dr Absar Ahmed has said in his paper on “Creation and Evolution in Quranic Perspective’ that the primary function and intent of the Quran is the detailed discussion of practical matters related to Guidance and the Straight Path. These matters are of immediate and common concern for every single human being so that he or she may attain salvation on the Day of Judgment. Consequently, the Quran keeps the needs of masses in focus and takes into account their intellectual capacities; as a result, the Quran relies upon only general Pointers to address issues related to specialized philosophical or academic interest, higher gnosis, and subtle spiritual realities. For those with sharpened intellects and heightened spiritual sensibilities theses general pointers should be more than enough to shed light on such matters”.

Now let’s see what picture emerges from the Quranic verses—pointers – referring to the creation of universe.

According to The Quran, the life containing universe is solely created by the Almighty God—Allah—and He is the Supreme Ruler of the universe. To this effect let me refer to few Quranic verses;

God is the Creator of everything; is the One, the Omnipotent. (13: 16)

God is the Creator of everything and He is incharge of everything. (39: 62)

Originator of Heaven and Earth, and whenever He decrees something, He says to it: ‘Be’ and it is. (2: 117)

Do they not see how God initiates the creation, and then reproduces it? Surely that is easy for God. Say: ‘travel in the earth and see how God initiated the creation’. Then God will create another creation; surely God has power over all things. (29:19-20)

Your guardian-Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o’er the day each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun the moon and the stars (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah the cherisher and sustainer of the worlds! (7:54)

There are many other ayahs (verses) which refer to the fact that all that is on the Earth and in the Heavens is created by Almighty God.

Second important fact according to The Quran is that this universe—Earth and Heavens—has definite life period and has some definite objectives like other creations.



Sura No 46, Ayah No 3 says:

“We created not the heavens and the earth and all between them but for just ends and for a term appointed: but those who reject faith turn away from that whereof they are warned”.

This Ayah clearly rejects any notion of eternal universe which other theories like steady state theory holds.

Next important question is creation of universe from out of nothing or creatio-ex-nihilo. To this effect we do see few direct references in The Quran, from which scholars have derived the creation ex-nihilo.

Sura 19 Ayah No 9 says: He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before when thou hadst been nothing!' ".

Also scholars quote ayah No 47 of Sura 3, which says: She said:

"O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth; when He hath decreed a plan He but saith to it `Be' and it is! And many others used by scholars to infer the concept of creation ex-nihilo.

These Ayahs refer to the creation of human being and the birth of Christ but scholars that these creations show that God has power to create things out of nothingness. He faces no difficulty and does not need any material or resources in fulfilling this task.

Next thing is the concept of emergence of universe from a very dense state called singularity. To this effect we see in Sura 21 ayah No 30 that:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of Creation) before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

In Sura 21 two words ‘Rataq’ and ‘Fataq’ have been used. According to Maulana Maudoodi the words ‘Rataq’ and ‘Fataq’ means that the universe was in a fused matter and God decreed it to separate to form the heavens and the earth. These words according to Maulana had different meaning for people of past, now, Physics and Astronomy has changed the meaning of these words. Similarly Tahir ul Qadri maintains that these words point to creation of universe from the initial singularity.

The Creation of universe started, Allama Tahir- ul -Qadri says, from initial state which is Falaq lets see Translation of Sura Falaq by Tahir Ul Qadri;

“Take the refuge in My Omnipotence from all created things, which have been formed by an explosion and ordered by My Lordship attribute. I am your lord, the ruler of the Galaxies, which I have scattered into the infinite reaches of the space through a magnificent explosion that started from initial singularity, and, through this explosion a lot of forces, energies radiations and reactions came into existence, which may be damaging for life, so take refuge from those evils. Because whoever takes refuge in Me is protected from all evils”.

Now as Anthropic principle and quantum gravity suggest that there could have been many more quantum universes in addition to our universe, these universes may have their own values of physical constants and nature of the physical laws. To this fact we refer to Sura 65 Ayah No 12 which says:

Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments (heavens) and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (Allah) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah comprehends all things in (His) Knowledge.

It should be noted that if the word ‘Samawat’ is taken equivalent to universe then there are at least 7 other universe (one above other like onion) each with its own sets of physical laws. And it is apparent from this Ayah that God created other worlds system and God’s commands descend (Keep in mind the use of present tense) in those systems. Use of present tense means that these systems exist today contrary to what Quantum Gravity theories suggest.

As to the formation of Galaxies and stars, The Quran hints at the formation of the heavens and the earth from the gaseous matter in Sura No 41 Ayah 11-12:

Moreover He Comprehended in His design the sky and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together) in willing obedience. So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might Full of knowledge."

These ayahs show that the lowest heaven or our universe is decorated or provided with visible objects like stars and galaxies, other heavens which lie above our system or universe may not contain the type of visible objects like we have in our universe. These universes may contain different types of objects and even laws if we consider the words ‘assigned to each heaven its duty and command’ means natural laws.

Referring to the uniformity of the universe on large scale Sura 67 Ayah No 3 says:

He Who created the seven heavens one above another; no want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious so turn thy vision again: Seest thou any flaw?

Taken collectively, these ayahs—pointers—clearly demonstrate that the universe is created by Allah the Almighty, who did not encounter any resistance or needed any resources to carryout His plan. He only said Be and there started the process of creation of universe.

SCIENCE – RELIGION DEBATE: GLIMPSE OF MUSLIMS’ RESPONSE
Many Muslims believe that the historical conflict between religion and science was a conflict between a particular religion—Christianity—and science, and that while it is too bad that Christianity emerged from the engagement badly bruised, Islam has no fears of such a clash. The conclusion drawn about Islam needs to be further elaborated. Science can not cause problem for Islam but it has definitely influence the outlook and thinking of many Muslims scholars, theologians and even simple minded people. For example as we have just shown that Islam has its own concept of creation of universe so the scientific concept of creation of universe like Big bang theory has deep implications for Muslims. Thus this influence of science has given rise to, without coming into limelight, a kind of science-religion debate since sir Syed Ahmed Khan. Let us take only a few examples from our region and see how some leading scholars have taken science-religion relationship.

Let’s start with Allama Iqbal. He says in The Reconstruction of religious thought in Islam;

“The Quran recognizing that the empirical attitude is an indispensable stage in the spiritual life of humanity, attaches equal importance to all the regions of human experience as yielding knowledge of ‘Ultimate Reality’ which reveals its symbols both within and without….the naturalism of the Quran is only recognition of the fact that the man is related to nature, and this relation, in the view of its possibility as a means of controlling her forces, must be exploited not in the interest of the unrighteous desire for domination, but in the nobler interested of a free upward movement of spiritual life. In the interest of securing a complete vision of Reality, therefore, sense—perception must be supplemented by the perception of what the Quran Describes as Qalb.”

In another place Allama making his case for Ijtihad says;

“The teaching, of the Quran that life is a process of progressive creation necessitates that each generation, guided but unhampered by the work of its predecessors, should be permitted to solve its own problems”.

Thus we can see Iqbal strongly advocates synthesis of Science and Religion such that this synthesis should be useful for spiritual development of man.

Strictly following Iqbal’s view came forward Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz. He tried to inculcate a spirit of rationality so that Muslim should take maximum advantage of science but in doing this he went too far, according to Theologian, he tried to explain the Quran in modernistic terms using present scientific knowledge instead of traditional approach. In this attempt, he in fact, adopted a line which is purely a kind integration of Islam with modern values.

There is another track in the field of science – religion interaction. It is a form according to which science and scientific knowledge can be employed to understand the Quran and Ahadith but Science, as principle, occupies a lower place than the Sources of Islamic Traditions. This line can be seen in the work of Maulana Maudoodi. We can see, in the work of Maulana Maudoodi, especially in Tarjuman Ul Quran, that he uses scientific data extensively to explain matter related to universe and to clarify and elaborate the Quranic message that had been difficult to understand hitherto. But whenever there is a conflict between the science and religion, like birth control issue, Maulana quickly adopts orthodox line against the Science.

There is yet another line, according to which, the relation between science and religion is not question of only theology or science but it is a question of philosophy as well. Let me quote famous Iranian scholar and physicist Dr. Mehdi Golshani, he says;

“In my opinion, there are lots of confusion and fallacies concerning the problem of creation, especially among modern cosmologists. This, in my humble view, is the result of their lack of philosophical understanding. The problem of creation is not a matter of physics alone. It needs theological and philosophical reflection as well”.

He further recommends the following strategy:

“We should explore our universe, by science, as much as we can, but we must avoid making claims about the absolute origination of the universe on physical grounds. Philosophy and theology can save us from making unsound exaggerated scientific claims, and can give us a proper metaphysical framework for our science and a ground for our being. In this framework, the description of the physical aspects of the universe is left for scientific investigation, but the ultimate explanation of the universe is provided by God.”

There is yet another line advocated by Dr. Bilal Masood. He opines:

“A complete natural view of the world is not compatible with the Islamic beliefs as it is not compatible with beliefs of any other religion. So, here we have some concerns against materialism that we have to share with other religions of the world. The importance of balance in Islam is very relevant here: we have to avoid both extreme views of too much supernatural and of no supernatural. He also asserts that (in the preaching Islam) in spite of importance of (scientific) examples, it is important to keep in mind that there is an approach to the Islamic beliefs that does not rely on (scientific) example-as –arguments.

Despite different lines followed by Muslim Scholars the general pattern of thought is such that Muslims usually uses science as a means of knowledge like other branches of knowledge and at the same time Muslims uphold Revealed knowledge as well.

RESPONSE FROM CHRISTIAN SCHOLARS
Muslims, despite their present clash and mistrust with the west, share many common themes and Beliefs with Christians. For example the belief of Omnipresent and Omnipotent God Who constantly act in this universe. So the experiences of Christian theologians will be a good guide, to some extent, to appreciate and understand the challenges of modern sciences to religion. Let see how the question of science-religion relationship has been taken by Christians.

The science and religion are entangled with each other since 16th century. This entanglement had bruised both science and religion. Realizing the importance of both fields, it has now been felt that there should be some meaningful relationship/interaction between both fields of knowledge and aspiration. This has initiated the field of study known as science- religion interaction. The field has explored the influences which science exerts on the religion and vice versa. Ian Barbour, one the most respected scholar of science-religion debate, has proposed that there are four types of relations or ways of relating science and religion. These are conflict, independence, dialogue and integration. Similarly John F Haught, Professor at Georgetown University, also proposed Ian Barbour typology. Let me quote his own words he says;

“I see four principal ways in which those who thought about the problem express their understanding of the relationship of religion to science. (1) Some hold that religion is utterly opposed to science or that science invalidates religion. I shall call this Conflict position. (2) Others insist that science and religion are so clearly different from each other that conflict between them is logically impossible. Religion and science both are valid, but we should rigorously separate one from other. This is contrast position. (3) A third type argues that although science and religion are distinct, science always has implications for religion and vice versa. Science and religion inevitably interact, and so religion and theology must not ignore new developments in science. For the sake of simplicity I shall call this contact approach. (4) Finally, a fourth way of looking at the relationship—akin to but logically distinct from third—emphasizes the subtle but significant ways in which religion positively supports the scientific adventure of discovery. It looks for those ways in which religion, without any way interfering with science, paves the way for some ideas, and even gives a special kind of blessing, or what I shall call confirmation, to the scientific quest of truth.’

It is not necessary to enter into more detail regarding the ‘Typology’ of the relationships between science and religion. My aim is to present a general map of the ways of relating science and religion in Christian and Muslim world. Keeping this in mind let see how some eminent Western scholars deal with Big Bang and question of creation in religion.

One prominent reaction to Big Bang has been by those who saw Big Bang as a support for theism. As Paul Davies put it:

A singularity is the nearest thing that science has found to a supernatural agent.

He also says that ‘The possibility that given the laws of physics, a universe can appear spontaneously rests on the “prior” existence of these laws of physics. Given, the laws, the universe can take care of itself. But where do the laws come from?

There is another view held by agnostics like S. Hawking their view point in S. Hawking’s words is;

“There would be no singularities at which the laws of science broke down, and no edge of space-time at which one has to appeal to God or some new law to set the boundary conditions for space-time.”



And:

“But if the universe is really completely self-contained, having no boundary or edge, it would have neither beginning nor end. What place, then, for a Creator?”

There are some who are looking for a dialogue between the Science and Religion like Ian G. Barbour. Let me now quote Ian G. Barbour, he says:

“It is equally impossible to imagine a beginning of time or an infinite span of time. Both are unlike anything we have experienced. Both start with an unexplained universe. I will agree that the choice of theories could be made on scientific grounds alone, and that the difference between them is only of secondary importance religiously.”

Similarly R. J. Russell holds that:

“Whether the origin of the universe as we know it involves a previous quantum super space, or whether the universe had an absolute beginning 15 billion years ago, the universe is contingent: it does not seem to include the grounds for its own existence, it does not offer an ultimate explanation of why anything at all exists in the first place, and therefore it points to that on which all beings necessarily exist – God.

In brief there are three types of people in the west: the one who have ‘developed the system of idealism by compromising reason with faith’, the other group has ‘developed the system of materialism by clear separation from religious faith’ and third group hopes to integrate both through a dialogue between them.

Now if we compare the Islamic concept of creation of universe appears in The Quran and Current Big Bang theory, we can see that there are some features of Big Bang theory that are closely similar to the Islamic concept of Creation of Universe, for example, creation out of nothingness, initial singularity, concept of formation of galaxies from primordial gases, and uniformity of universe on large scale. Also there are a few features of creation where there is no uniformity of ideas between Islamic concept and Big Bang Theory, for example, notion of multi-universe/worlds. Second, if we compare the science religion relationship/interaction in Christian perspective and in Islamic perspective we see that there is a great deal of similarity in the type of ways of interaction/relationship and responses in both monotheistic religions. Third, that as we have seen that the Islamic concept of creation of universe is not contrary to the present scientific theories; in fact the theories have enhanced our understanding of the universe. This enhanced knowledge of the universe has improved our understanding of the Quran and Ahadith. So science, though it has provisional theories has become a key requirement in understanding Religion, as it explained several things like existence of other universes/worlds and fused status of heaven and earth, etc which our old exegetes were unable to explain. Thus science is not only a requirement of material comfort but also a key requisite for appreciation of religion. Fourth, science has provided us a universal language with which we can interact with the people of other religions and cultures.





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* Govt. Degree College, Oghi, Mansehra.






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from http://www.hssrd.org/journal/spring2...ionunverse.htm

All I said was that the Quran reads "days", the interpretation may of course differ.
Ah but 'youm' can denote many different things .. day, eon etc

Are you suggesting (one of) the verses we've been discussing is an alegory?
Or are you trying to say I don't have the insight?^o):D
the lady leaves it to the reader to decipher what he may :D


Hmmm, I don't know, it says it created the Earth in 4 days, then designed the skies, told them and the earth either to come together or to come to existence (which I find odd, as explained above) and then it took him 2 days to complete the skies/heavens. Now, I am aware there might be thummas and was, but I think the whole process is supposed to have lasted 6 days and it is evident that the skis, which you claim to be the universe, was created either simoultaniously or after the Earth.
read the above rather large quote and let me know if you are still in confusion?also here is another from about.com

Creation of the Universe
From Huda,
Your Guide to Islam.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Six "Days" or Long Periods of Time
The descriptions of creation in the Qur'an are not intended as dry historical accounts, but rather to engage the reader in contemplating the lessons to be learned from it. The act of creation, therefore, is frequently spoken of as a way of drawing the reader into thinking about the order in all things, and the All-Knowing Creator Who is behind it all. For example:
"Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).


Big Bang?
When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Qur'an does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all.

In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).


Expansion of Universe
The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.


Six Days?
The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.

The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.

After completing the Creation, the Qur'an describes that Allah "settled Himself upon the Throne" (57:4) to oversee His work. A distinct point is made to counter the Biblical idea of a day of rest: "We created the heavens and the earth adn all that is between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us" (50:38).

Allah is never "done" with His work, because the process of creation is ongoing. Each new child who is born, every seed that sprouts into a sapling, every new species that appears on earth, is part of the ongoing process of Allah's creation. "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows what enters within the heart of the earth, and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven, and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah sees well all that you do" (57:4).
http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm
two pages so you may want to refer to actual site..

Even muslims?
Absolutely, even muslims.. have had my foot in my mouth so many times, I have lost count.. no one is above learning!

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
thouma=then!
format_quote Originally Posted by Weiss
[Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”
Erm...?
Reply

truemuslim
02-06-2008, 10:38 PM
thumma means 'and'

just a quick lil post..:w:
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 10:47 PM
^^ really sister?
why is it then in Islam we are forbidden from using the term alshoker lilah 'wa' (and) anta, and instead asked to use
alskhor lillah (thouma) (then) anta?

there are rules of grammar in Arabic, just like there are rules in jurisprudence!

:w:
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Erm...?
rendered (as) but not in same status to (and), you make see the above statement I have made as clarification, if in fact in understanding rules of grammar in Arabic, it makes all the difference in the world!


peace
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 10:53 PM
if in doubt there is always the dictionary

Arabic - English
ثُمَّ حــــــــــــرف حَرْفُ عَطْفٍ يُفِيدُ التَّرَاخِي = thouma
after that , next , then




http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...E-A&Sub=%cb%e3
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 11:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
ahhhhh mazing.. thank you
You're welcome.

No the reverse..
Then denotes after...
TM and Weiss say thumma means "and"... you say then...

Ah but 'youm' can denote many different things .. day, eon etc
In this case (as explained in the lower article) youm means day. Muslims, in light of other verses, interpret it as aeons..

the lady leaves it to the reader to decipher what he may :D
:hiding::sunny:

read the above rather large quote and let me know if you are still in confusion?also here is another from about.com
I am still in confusion, the article does not adress a single point of my question.

two pages so you may want to refer to actual site..
Nor does this one.
______________________________________________
Once more:
Where does the Quran indicate the smoky skies (primary stages of the universe) came before the Earth?

As I understand it, Allah created the Earth, added some smokey skies, told them and the Earth to come together and then completed the smoke into seven heavens...in 6-8 actual days.
I'm not sure, what does the Quran say about the sun, and the rest of the celestial bodies.
The article suggests that they were created after the Earth, which is wrong...
In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).
And this verse
And We adorned the lower heaven with lights and (provided it) with guard.
suggests the, the lower heaven, which some muslims claim to be an atmosphere layer, was adorned with light... first,the heavens were completed after the earth, and second, if you agree with the athmosphere miracle, you can't have an atmosphere without a planet...

To be honest, all these verses make me think Muhammad thought the sun was a shiny moving thingy on the "firmanent"... the way I think the Bible describes it.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-06-2008, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
if in doubt there is always the dictionary

Arabic - English
ثُمَّ حــــــــــــرف حَرْفُ عَطْفٍ يُفِيدُ التَّرَاخِي = thouma
after that , next , then




http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...Sub=%cb%e3
Then denotes a sequence of events, doesn't it?

Ehhh, of course it does, it says "after then"....
So, is Weiss mistaken? He says thumma indicates parallel events...
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You're welcome.
:D


Then denotes after...
TM and Weiss say thumma means "and"... you say then...
I think the best way to put disputes over semantics to rest is to use the dictionary which I have provided!


In this case (as explained in the lower article) youm means day. Muslims, in light of other verses, interpret it as aeons..
the same way you speak with someone on the phone and they can use the word
whether or weather, and in the context of said conversation you'd understand the denoted meaning..
or the written wind (Air moving ) or wind (To move or cause to move in a sinuous, spiral, or circular course) and you know in the context of the paragraph, which it actually denotes?


:hiding::sunny:
:eek:


I am still in confusion, the article does not adress a single point of my question.


Nor does this one.
you asked for creation of universe, an Islamic perspective and I gave you two articles as to the subject matter.. but we may certainly sit here and argue semantics if that is more satisfactory?
______________________________________________
Once more:
Where does the Quran indicate the smoky skies (primary stages of the universe) came before the Earth?

As I understand it, Allah created the Earth, added some smokey skies, told them and the Earth to come together and then completed the smoke into seven heavens...in 6-8 actual days.
I'm not sure, what does the Quran say about the sun, and the rest of the celestial bodies.
The article suggests that they were created after the Earth, which is wrong...
The concept of the big bang is in concert with the Islamic perspective of how it all started

And this verse

suggests the, the lower heaven, which some muslims claim to be an atmosphere layer, was adorned with light... first,the heavens were completed after the earth, and second, if you agree with the athmosphere miracle, you can't have an atmosphere without a planet...
If you can get to accept the theory that at some point, the universe entire exploded unto the scene, and then everything took shape, it wouldn't really matter if pluto came before Ganymede..

as we speak there are stars dying and new ones forming from the same material.. do you reflect on the sequence on which before whom, why or when?

To be honest, all these verses make me think Muhammad thought the sun was a shiny moving thingy on the "firmanent"... the way I think the Bible describes it.
???

peace
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
02-06-2008, 11:35 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Is it just endless debate? ^o)

Sister Fatima
Reply

جوري
02-06-2008, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Then denotes a sequence of events, doesn't it?

Ehhh, of course it does, it says "after then"....
So, is Weiss mistaken? He says thumma indicates parallel events...
depends on the sentence.. see my before example on homonyms, surely even you can allow some room nuances in syntax, morphology in linguistics, especially in dealing with semantics?..


peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-07-2008, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
:eek:
;D

the same way you speak with someone on the phone and they can use the word
whether or weather, and in the context of said conversation you'd understand the denoted meaning..
or the written wind (Air moving ) or wind (To move or cause to move in a sinuous, spiral, or circular course) and you know in the context of the paragraph, which it actually denotes?
The word used in the Quran translates to "day", I think only 2 out of 17 English translations use aeon. The metaphorical meaning of the word may be different. Tafsir Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs interprets day as a period equal to one thousand years.

you asked for creation of universe, an Islamic perspective and I gave you two articles as to the subject matter.. but we may certainly sit here and argue semantics if that is more satisfactory?

The concept of the big bang is in concert with the Islamic perspective of how it all started
Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined , so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

I think you know what my thoughts on this are...
but let's say the verse can be interpreted as a reference to the big bang.

If you can get to accept the theory that at some point, the universe entire exploded unto the scene, and then everything took shape, it wouldn't really matter if pluto came before Ganymede..
sure it would. It it definitely matters whether the sun came after the earth.

as we speak there are stars dying and new ones forming from the same material.. do you reflect on the sequence on which before whom, why or when?
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but it is important whether one particular star came before one particular planet.
Anyway, this is not the main point of our debate.

???
Exactly what I said... I think Mohammed envisioned the moon and the sun as the Bible describes them - traveling on the firmanent. I don't think he thought of them as spherical bodies with their own orbits, one circuling around the Earth, the other being circled around by the Earth..

_________________________________________

First, the earth
then or or at the same time, the smoky skies
....
the earth and the skies are told to come together (or come into being, which makes things more complicated, but nevertheless still wierd, as the beginning stages of the universe - smoke - and the earth did not coexist)
the skies are perfected into seven heavens

Prove me wrong!
_______________________

What does "come!" in 41:11 mean? Come together/join or come into being? If the second, why do 3 previous verses describe the creation of the earth, if it hadn't even existed back then?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-07-2008, 12:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
depends on the sentence.. see my before example on homonyms, surely even you can allow some room nuances in syntax, morphology in linguistics, especially in dealing with semantics?..


peace
Could you analyze the meanings of thumma in the verses we have been discussing?
Does the meaning of the thumma depends on the meaning? - does that mean it may depend on interpretation? Say, someone believes the earth and the skies were created simultaniously, so they will translate thumma to "and", whereas another person will translate it to "then"...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-07-2008, 12:21 AM
Good night, people!
Reply

جوري
02-07-2008, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
;D
The word used in the Quran translates to "day", I think only 2 out of 17 English translations use aeon. The metaphorical meaning of the word may be different. Tafsir Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs interprets day as a period equal to one thousand years.
not all translators are scholars or vice versa, it doesn't change what it actually means!

Did those who disbelieved not see that the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, they (B) were joined , so We split/ruptured them (B) , and We made/created from the water every thing alive/living, so do they not believe?

I think you know what my thoughts on this are...
but let's say the verse can be interpreted as a reference to the big bang.
I think it couldn't be more clear, therein in that first (big bang) all the material for our known universe sprang forth.. no different than you having all the material you need to express yourself using only 26 letters of the alphabet.

sure it would. It it definitely matters whether the sun came after the earth.
the sun couldn't have come after the earth, the heat of the sun in the beginning wouldn't and didn't allow for favorable living conditions on this planet. It took a while for it to 'cool down' for things to evolve and take the shape they are in..

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but it is important whether one particular star came before one particular planet.
Anyway, this is not the main point of our debate.
I wish I knew what was unclear for you, maybe it is a communication problem on my part who knows..


Exactly what I said... I think Mohammed envisioned the moon and the sun as the Bible describes them - traveling on the firmanent. I don't think he thought of them as spherical bodies with their own orbits, one circuling around the Earth, the other being circled around by the Earth..

_________________________________________
then how does that explain all the other suras for instance



بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}
[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}
[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}
[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}
[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,

يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}
[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.

تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}
[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,

قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}
[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully

is there a similar desciption to that in the bible? describing metors and stars floating? this by the way is one of many describing stars, meteors and planets!

بِ
سْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا السَّمَاء انفَطَرَتْ {1}
[Pickthal 82:1] When the heaven is cleft asunder,

وَإِذَا الْكَوَاكِبُ انتَثَرَتْ {2}
[Pickthal 82:2] When the planets are dispersed,

or again
فَإِ
ذَا النُّجُومُ طُمِسَتْ {8}
[Pickthal 77:8] So when the stars are put out,

وَإِذَا السَّمَاء فُرِجَتْ {9}
[Pickthal 77:9] And when the sky is riven asunder,

just browse through the end chapters for more..

First, the earth
then or or at the same time, the smoky skies
....
the earth and the skies are told to come together (or come into being, which makes things more complicated, but nevertheless still wierd, as the beginning stages of the universe - smoke - and the earth did not coexist)
the skies are perfected into seven heavens
You have positvely no way of verfying the sequence of events .. people theorize about how it all began, but just like there is a big bang theory of an all expanding universe springing forth from a dense hot state, there is also non-standard cosmology.. stars orbit on their own accord and in relation to each other, there was a time when Venus, Mercury and Saturn were a trio
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/0506...et_parade.html.. you have no way of telling at what millennium or era, what planets were joined, rent asunder, formed or died
http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/star_worldbook.html
and as they die some form red giant stage
فَإِذَا انشَقَّتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ وَرْدَةً كَالدِّهَانِ
56:36-37

When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red-like ointment! Then which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?" Al Rahman 55:37-38

tell me does the bible too have that? does it discuss the red stage of dying planets?


Prove me wrong!
about what?
_______________________

What does "come!" in 41:11 mean? Come together/join or come into being? If the second, why do 3 previous verses describe the creation of the earth, if it hadn't even existed back then?
[/QUOTE]
my personal belief and I am not a scholar, that this is an allegorical description of how the universe took shape at the will of Allah swt..

many other verses direct you to question, do you see any holes in the sky, is there a rift in it, or ask you to look at the location of the stars,
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ {75}
[Yusufali 56:75] Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-

by the way 'fala' here is in the negative as in I need not call your attention to how the stars orbit or set

وَإِنَّهُ لَقَسَمٌ لَّوْ تَعْلَمُونَ عَظِيمٌ {76}
[Yusufali 56:76] And that is indeed a mighty adjuration if ye but knew,-


this, as ways for you to reflect on all the things that have made life favorable, that couldn't have come by chance..

honestly once you put it all together, it will rock you to the core in fear and awe of the creator..

but it takes a very long time and much study, I say this even amongst muslims and as I myself am beginning to put it together and learn..

peace
Reply

Isambard
02-07-2008, 01:36 AM
Anyone else feeling more confused?
Reply

جوري
02-07-2008, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Could you analyze the meanings of thumma in the verses we have been discussing?
Does the meaning of the thumma depends on the meaning? - does that mean it may depend on interpretation? Say, someone believes the earth and the skies were created simultaniously, so they will translate thumma to "and", whereas another person will translate it to "then"...
I think if you are going to approach a particular sura, that you should take it in whole and not in part..
if you are familiar with antonio machado poems, you'll know that there are several translations floating out there, with Robert Bly, being a foremost authority, well as it so happens, native spanish speakers from what they have told me, that Bly is a competent linguist, but doesn't evoke the actual feeling of the poems.. some others state that he evokes it in such a way as if making a new poem all together.. you have to accept that something will be lost to you in the translation.. you can go literal, and have it lose the proper impression its meant to evoke, there is a thousand equivalence for each word between languages. or you can have the evocation and feel it somehow a re-creation of something as it doesn't convey its proper meaning... you can also learn a language that doesn't appeal to you, but that is in fact what many people do when they embrace Islam, least of which on a bare minimum level to perform their prayers!

bottom line is, I am not going to argue semantics about and or then, the commentary and translation of weiss, was/is the best I have seen from all other translation.. do I get the same feeling reading it, as if I were reading it in Arabic? absolutely not, I am blessed in that regards in a way many others aren't..
if you are interested in the sura as a whole then I reference you to
THE FORTY-FIRST SURAH

FUSSILAT (CLEARLY SPELLED OUT)

MECCA PERIOD

REVEALED immediately after the preceding surah, this one continues the theme begun in the latter: man’s reasoned acceptance or willful rejection of divine revelations. The title is derived from the verb fussilat occurring in verse 3, where it relates to the “clearly spelled-out” messages of the Quran.

DIVINE WRIT IN ARABIC

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE: (1) Ha. Mim. [See Appendix II.] (2) THE BESTOWAL from on high [of this revelation] issues from the Most Gracious, the Dis*penser of Grace: (3) a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue for people of [innate] knowl*edge, [See 12: 2 and the corresponding note.] (4) to be a herald of glad tidings as well as a warning. And yet, [whenever this divine writ is offered to men,] most of them turn away, so that they cannot hear [its message]; [The “people of [innate] knowledge” mentioned in the preceding verse are obviously those who understand the spiritual purport of this divine writ and, therefore, submit to its guidance: hence, it cannot be “most of them” who are referred to in the above phrase and in the next verse but, on the contrary, people who are devoid of such knowledge and to whom, in consequence, the Quran is meaningless. This elliptically implied differentiation - overlooked by almost all of the commentators (with perhaps the sole exception of Ibn Kathir) - can only be brought out by means of an interpolation at the beginning of the sentence.] (5) and so they say, [as it were:] “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier. [For this rendering of the term hijab, see note on the first sentence of 7: 46. See also 6: 25. The “saying” of those who turn away from the message of the Quran is, of course, figurative, describing only their attitude.] Do, then, [whatever thou wilt, whereas,] behold, we shall do [as we have always done]!”

BELIEF IN GOD’S ONENESS AND CHARITABLENESS

(6) Say thou, [O Prophet:] “I am but a mortal like you. [Cf. 6: 50 and the corresponding note.]

It has been revealed to me that your God is the One God: go, then, straight towards Him and seek His forgiveness!” And woe unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, (7) [and] those who do not spend in charity: for it is they, they who [thus] deny the truth of the life to come! [Belief in God’s oneness and charitableness towards one’s fellow-men are two cardinal demands of Islam. Conversely, a deliberate offence against either of these two demands amounts to a denial of man’s responsibility before God and hence, by implication, of a continuation of life in the hereafter. (For my rendering of zakah, in this context, as “charity”, see note on 2: 43. It is to be borne in mind that the application of this term to the obligatory tax incumbent on Muslims dates from the Medina period, whereas the present surah is a Meccan revelation.)] (8) [But,] verily, they who have attained to faith and do good works shall have a reward unending!

CREATION OF EARTH

(9) SAY: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created the earth in two aeons? [For the above rendering of the term yawm (lit., “day”), as “aeon”, see last third of note on 7: 54. As in so many verses of the Quran which relate to cosmic events, the repeated mention of the “six aeons” during which the universe was created - “two” of which, according to the above verse, were taken by the evolution of the inorganic universe, including the earth - has a purely allegorical import: in this case, I believe, an indication that the universe did not exist “eternally” but had a definite beginning in time, and that it required a definite time-lapse to evolve to its present condition.] And do you claim that there is any power that could rival Him, the Sustainer of all the worlds?” [Lit., “do you give Him compeers (andad)?” For an explanation, see note on 2: 22.] (10) For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned * its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [I.e., in accordance with divine justice, and not with human concepts of “equity” or “need”.] [and all this He created] in four aeons. [Almost all the classical commentators agree in that these “four aeons include the “two” mentioned in the preceding verse: hence my interpolation of the words “and all this He created”. Together with the “two aeons of verse 12, the entire allegorical number comes to six.] (11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on

2: 29).] And We adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, and made them secure: [Cf. 15: 16-18 and the corresponding notes; also 37: 6ff.] such is the ordaining of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

THUNDERBOLT OF PUNISHMENT FOR TRIBE OF AD AND THAMUD

(13) BUT IF they turn away, say: [This connects with the opening sentence of verse 9 above: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created…”, etc.] “I warn you of [the coming of] a thunderbolt of punishment [See note on 2: 55.] like the thunderbolt [that fell upon the tribes] of Ad and Thamud!” [For the story of these two ancient tribes, see 7: 65-79 and the corresponding notes; also 26: 123-158.] (14) Lo! There came unto them [God’s] apostles, speaking of what lay open before them and what was [still] beyond their ken, * [and calling unto them,] “Worship none but God!” [*Lit., “from between their hands and from behind them”: i.e., reminding them of something that was known to them - namely, what happened to sinners like themselves who lived before their time - and warning them of what was bound to happen in the future to them, too, if they persisted in their denial of the truth (Al-Hasan al-Basri, as quoted by Zamakhshari). However, it is possible to understand the above phrase (which has been explained in note on 2: 255) in yet another, more direct way: God’s message-bearers pointed out to those sinning communities something that should have been obvious to them (lit., “between their hands”) - namely, their patently wrong attitude in their worldly, social concerns and moral concepts - as well as the unreasonableness of their denying something that was still beyond their ken (lit., “behind them”): namely, life after death and God’s ultimate judgment.] They answered: “If our Sustainer had willed [us to believe in what you say], He would have sent down angels [as His message-bearers]. [Cf. 6: 8-9 and 15: 7.] As it is, behold, we deny that there is any truth in what you [claim to] have been sent with!” (15) Now as for [the tribe of] Ad, they walked arrogantly on earth, [offending] against all right, and saying, “Who could have a power greater than ours?” Why - were they, then, not aware that God, who created them, had a power greater than theirs? But they went on rejecting Our messages; (16) and thereupon We let loose upon them a storm wind raging through days of misfortune, [See 69: 6-8.] so as to give them, in the life of this world, a foretaste of suffering through humiliation: but [their] suffering in the life to come will be far more humiliating, and they will have none to succour them. (17) And as for [the tribe of] Thamud, We offered them guidance, but they chose blindness in pre*ference to guidance: and so the thunderbolt of shame*ful suffering fell upon them as an outcome of all [the evil] that they had wrought; (18) and We saved [only] those who had attained to faith and were conscious of Us.

SINNERS BEARING WITNESS AGAINST THEMSELVES ON THE JUDGMENT DAY

(19) Hence, [warn all men of] the Day when the enemies of God shall be gathered together before the fire, and then shall be driven onward, (20) till, when they come close to it, their hearing and their sight and their [very] skins will bear witness against them, speaking of what they were doing [on earth]. (21) And they will ask their skins, “Why did you bear witness against us?” - [and] these will reply: “God, who gives speech to all things, has given speech to us [as well]: for He [it is who] has created you in the first instance - and unto Him you are [now] brought back. (22) And you did not try to hide [your sins] lest your hearing or your sight or your skins bear witness against you: nay, but you thought that God did not know much of what you were doing - (23) and that very thought which you thought about your Sustainer has brought you to perdition, and so now you find yourselves among the lost!” (24) And then, [even] if they endure [their lot] in patience, the fire will still be their abode; [Sc., “unless God wills to reprieve them”: see the last paragraph of 6: 128 and the corresponding note; also the hadith quoted in note on 40: 12.] and if they pray to be allowed to make amends, they will not be allowed to do so: [Lit., “they will not be of those who are allowed to make amends”: an allusion to the request of the doomed, on the Day of Judgment, to be granted a “second chance” on earth, and to God’s refusal of this request (cf. 6: 27-28 and 32: 12).]

EVIL SOUL-MATES

(25) for [when they became obli*vious of Us,] We assigned to them [their own evil impulses as their] other selves, [Or: “soul-mates” (cf. 4: 38). The verb qarana, from which the noun qarin is derived, signifies “he linked” or “intimately associated” or “yoked together [one thing with another]”. Cf. 43: 36 - “as for anyone who chooses to remain blind to the remembrance of the Most Gracious, to him We assign an [enduring] evil impulse [lit., “a Satan”], to become his other self”.] and these made appear goodly to them whatever lay open before them and whatever was beyond their ken. [Lit., “that which was between their hands and that which was behind them”: i.e., their own evil impulses (which had become their “other selves”, as it were) made alluring to them the unrestrained enjoyment, without any moral discrimination, of all the worldly attractions which lay open before them, causing them, at the same time, to dismiss as an illusion the idea of resurrection and of God’s judgment - thus giving them a false sense of security with regard to something that was beyond their ken.] And so, the sentence [of doom] will have fallen due upon them together with the [other sinful] com*munities of invisible beings [For this rendering - and the meaning - of the term jinn, see Appendix III.] and humans that passed away before their time: verily, they [all] will indeed be lost!

SUFFERING FOR KNOWINGLY REJECTING GOD’S MESSAGES

(26) NOW THOSE who are bent on denying the truth say [unto one another]: “Do not listen to this Quran, but rather talk frivolously about it, so that you might gain the upper hand!” [This is an allusion to efforts aimed at discrediting the Quran by describing it as “invented” by Muhammad for his own - personal and political - ends, as a series of “misunderstood quo*tations” from earlier scriptures, as the result of “hallucinations”, and so forth: all of which implies that the opponents of the Quranic message instinctively feel its force, realizing at the same time that it endangers their self-complacent, materialistic outlook on life and ought, therefore, to be combated. This explains the statement, at the end of verse 28, that they “knowingly reject” God’s messages.] (27) But We shall most certainly give those who are [thus] bent on denying the truth a taste of suffering severe, and We shall most certainly requite them according to the worst of their deeds! (28) That requital of God’s enemies will be the fire [of the hereafter]: in it will they have an abode of immeasurable duration as an outcome of their having knowingly rejected Our messages. [For the above rendering of the verb jahada, see the third note on 29: 47.] (29) And they who [in their life on earth] were bent on denying the truth will [thereupon] exclaim: “O our Sustainer! Show us those of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray: [See 6: 112 - “against every prophet We have set up as enemies the evil forces (shayatin) from among humans as well as from among invisible beings” - and the corresponding note.] we shall trample them underfoot, so that they shall be the lowest of all!” [Cf. 7: 38.]

DESCENDING OF ANGELS ON DOERS OF GOOD

(30) [But,] behold, as for those who say, “Our Sustainer is God,” and then steadfastly pursue the right way - upon them do angels often descend, [say*ing:] “Fear not and grieve not, but receive the glad tiding of that paradise which has been promised to you! (31) We are close unto you in the life of this world and [will be so] in the life to come; and in that [life to come] you shall have all that your souls may desire, and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for, (32) as a ready welcome from Him who is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!” (33) And who could be better of speech than he who calls [his fellow-men] unto God, and does what is just and right, and says, “Verily, I am of those who have surrendered themselves to God”?

REPEL EVIL WITH GOOD

(34) But [since] good and evil cannot be equal, repel thou [evil] with something that is better [See note on 13: 22. In the present instance, the injunction to “repel [evil] with something that is better” relates to scurrilous objections to, and hostile criticism of, the Quran. The whole of this passage (verses 33 ff.) connects with verse 26.] - and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity [may then become] as though he had [always] been close [unto thee], a true friend! [You foil hatred with love and liberate those from sin and make them your true friends.] (35) Yet [to achieve] this is not given to any but those who are wont to be patient in adversity: it is not given to any but those endowed with the greatest good fortune! (36) Hence, if it should happen that a prompting from Satan stirs thee up [to blind anger], seek refuge with God: behold, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! [I.e., He alone sees what is in the hearts of men, and He alone understands the innermost motivations, of which they themselves are unconscious, of those who criticize the Quran adversely. See 7: 199-200 and the corresponding notes.]

GOD AS CAUSE AND SOURCE OF ALL THAT EXISTS

(37) Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship. [This, according to Razi, connects with the phrase “calling [one’s fellow-men] unto God” in verse 33 above. God is the sole cause and source of all that exists; and whatever exists is but a wondrous sign of His creative power. Hence, it is a blasphemy - apart from being unreasonable - to ascribe real power (which is the meaning of “adoration” in this context) to anything created, whether it be a concrete phenomenon, or an abstract force of nature, or a set of circumstances, or even an idea.] (38) And though some be too proud [to listen to this call], they who [in their hearts] are with thy Sustainer extol His limitless glory by night and by day, and never grow weary [thereof]. (39) For among His signs is this: thou seest the earth lying desolate - and lo! when We send down water upon it, it stirs and swells [with life]! Verily, He who brings it to life can surely give life to the dead [of heart as well]: for, behold, He has the power to will anything. [Although the allusion to the reviving earth often occurs in the Quran as a parable of man’s ultimate resurrection, in the present context (and in tune with the entire passage comprising verses 33-39) it appears to be an illustration of God’s power to bestow spiritual life upon hearts that have hitherto remained closed to the truth of His existence and omnipotence. Hence, it implies a call to the believer never to abandon the hope that “those who deny the truth” may one day grasp the truth of the Quranic message.]

REJECTION OF THE THEORY OF ABROGATION

(40) VERILY, they who distort the meaning of Our mes*sages are not hidden from Us: hence, which [of the two] will be in a better state - he that is [destined to be] cast into the fire, or he that shall come secure [before Us] on Resurrection Day? Do what you will: verily, He sees all that you do. (41) Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - [they are the losers]: for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ: (42) no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, * [since it is] bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised. [*Lit., “neither from between its hands, nor from behind it”, i.e., it cannot be openly changed by means of additions or omissions (Razi), and neither surreptitiously, by hostile or deliberately confusing interpretations. The above is one of the Quranic passages on which the great com*mentator Abu Muslim al-Isfahani (as quoted by Razi) bases his absolute rejection of the theory of “abrogation” (for which see note on 2: 106). Since the “abrogation” of any Quran-verse would have amounted to its ibtal - that is, to an open or implied declaration that it was henceforth to be regarded as null and void - the verse in question would have to be considered “false” (batil) in the context of the Quran as it is before us: and this, as Abu Muslim points out, would clearly contradict the above statement that “no falsehood (batil) can ever attain to it”.]

MEN’S ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE EARLIER SCRIPTURES AND THE QURAN

(43) [And as for thee, O Prophet,] nothing is being said to thee but what was said to all [of God’s] apostles before thy time. [This is an allusion to the allegation of the Prophet’s opponents that he himself was the “author” of what he claimed to be a divine revelation, as well as to their demand that he should “prove” the truth of his prophetic mission by producing a miracle: a scornful attitude with which all the earlier prophets had been confronted at one time or another, and which is epitomized in the “saying” of the unbelievers mentioned in verse 5 of this surah.] Behold, thy Sustainer is indeed full of forgiveness - but He has also the power to requite most grie*vously! (44) Now if We had willed this [divine writ] to be a discourse in a non-Arabic tongue, they [who now reject it] would surely have said, “Why is it that its messages have not been spelled out clearly? [Sc., “in a tongue which we can understand”. Since the Prophet was an Arab and lived in an Arabian environment, his message had to be expressed in the Arabic language, which the people to whom it was addressed in the first instance could understand: see in this connection note on the first sentence of 13: 37, as well as the first half of 14: 4 - “never have We sent forth any apostle otherwise than [with a message] in his own people’s tongue, so that he might make [the truth] clear unto them”. Had the message of the Quran been formulated in a language other than Arabic, the opponents of the Prophet would have been justified in saying, “between us and thee is a barrier” (verse 5 of this surah).] Why - [a message in] a non-Arabic tongue, and [its bearer] an Arab?” Say: “Unto all who have attained to faith, this [divine writ] is a guidance and a source of health; but as for those who will not believe - in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them: they are [like people who are] being called from too far away. [Lit., “from a far-off place”: i.e., they only hear the sound of the words, but cannot understand their meaning.] (45) Thus, too, have We vouchsafed revelation unto Moses aforetime, and thereupon disputes arose about it. [As was and is the case with the Quran, some people accepted the divine message revealed to Moses, and some rejected it (Zamakhshari, Razi), while others disagreed about the import and application of its tenets (Tabari).] And [then, as now,] had it not been for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Sustainer, all would indeed have been decided between them [from the outset]. [For an explanation of this passage, as well as of the above parallel between men’s attitudes towards the earlier scriptures and the Quran, see the second sentence of 10: 19 and the corresponding note.] As it is, behold, they [who will not believe in this divine writ] are in grave doubt, amounting to suspicion, about what it portends. [Lit., “about it”, i.e., doubts as to whether the Quranic approach to problems of man’s spirit and body - and, in particular, its stress on the essential unity of these twin aspects of human life (cf. note on the first sentence of 2: 143) - is justified or not. In a wider sense, these doubts of the deniers of the truth relate to the question of whether religion as such is “beneficial” or “injurious” to human society - a question which is posed and answered by them with a strong bias against all religious faith.] (46) WHOEVER does what is just and right, does so for his own good; and whoever does evil, does so to his own hurt: and never does God do the least wrong to His creatures.

JUDGMENT DAY

(47) In Him alone is vested the knowledge of when the Last Hour will come. And no fruit bursts forth from its calyx, and no female ever conceives, nor ever gives birth, save with His knowledge. And so, on the Day when He shall call out to them, “Where, now, are those [alleged] partners of Mine?” - they will [surely] answer, “We confess unto Thee that none of us can bear witness [to anyone’s having a share in Thy divinity]!” (48) And so, all that they were wont to invoke aforetime will have forsaken them; and they shall know for certain that there is no escape for them.

(49) MAN NEVER TIRES of asking for the good [things of life]; and if evil fortune touches him, he abandons all hope, giving himself up to despair. [See note on 11: 9.] (50) Yet whenever We let him taste some of Our grace after hardship has visited him, he is sure to say, “This is but my due!” - and, “I do not think that the Last Hour will ever come: [I.e., man is, as a rule, so blinded by his love of this world that he cannot imagine its ever coming to an end. Implied in this statement is a doubt as to whether there will really be an afterlife, and whether man will really be judged by God on resurrection.] but if [it should come, and] I should indeed be brought back unto my Sus*tainer, then, behold, the ultimate good awaits me with Him! [Being fully convinced of his own merit (as expressed in the words, “This is but my due”), he is confident that - in case there should really be a life after death - his own flattering view of himself will be confirmed by God.] But [on the Day of Judgment] We shall most cer*tainly give those who were bent on denying the truth [I.e., the truth of resurrection and of God’s judgment.] full understanding of all that they ever did, and shall most certainly give them [thereby] a taste of suffering severe. [I.e., the realization of the spiritual blindness in which they spent their life will in itself be a source of their suffering in the hereafter: cf. 17: 72 - “whoever is blind [of heart] in this [world] will be blind in the life to come (as well)”.] (51) And, too, when We bestow Our blessings upon man, he tends to turn aside and keep aloof [from remembering Us]; but as soon as evil fortune touches him, he is full of wordy prayers! [Lit., “wide (i.e., prolonged or diffuse) prayers”.] (52) HAVE YOU given thought [to how you will fare] if this be truly [a revelation] from God, the while you deny its truth? Who could be more astray than one who places himself [so] deeply in the wrong? [According to Razi, this is an implied allusion to the attitude of people who - as mentioned in verses 4 and 5 of this surah - “turn away” from the message of the Quran, saying, as it were: “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier.] (53) In time We shall make them fully understand [Lit., “We will show them” or “make them see”.] Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them*selves, [I.e., through a progressive deepening and widening of their insight into the wonders of the universe as well as through a deeper understanding of man’s own psyche - all of which points to the existence of a conscious Creator.] so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything? [I.e., that He is almighty and all-seeing: a fundamental truth which, by itself, should be enough to remind man of his responsibility before Him.] (54) Oh, verily, they are in doubt as to whether they will meet their Sustainer [on Judgment Day]! Oh, verily, He encompasses everything!

peace and gnight!
Reply

- Qatada -
02-07-2008, 10:21 AM
:salamext:


http://islamtoday.net/english/show_d...id=23&q_id=829


Question: Does the Qur’ân teach us that the Earth was created first and then the heavens were created? Would this not contradict with our current scientific knowledge?

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net




The Qur’ân does not go into detail about the mechanics of the creation of the universe. Its focus is on the fact that Allah created everything and on reminding us of all the blessings that we have in what Allah has created for us.


The verses in question are the following:

“It is He who created for you all that is in the Earth, then turned to the heaven and made them seven heavens. And He has knowledge of all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 29]

“Say: Is it that ye deny Him who created the Earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of all the Worlds. He set within it mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings upon the Earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days alike for (all) who ask. Then He turned to the heaven and they had been smoke. He said to it and to the Earth: ‘Come willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: We come willingly.’ So He completed them as seven heavens in two days…” [Sûrah Fussilat: 9-12]


It is important to note that the word thumma” – translated in the above-mentioned verses as “then”does not always indicate chronology. Al-Razî, in his commentary on verse 29 of Sûrah al-Baqarah, states that in this verse, the word thumma it is not indicative of chronology. He writes:


The word “then” (thumma) is not here for chronological order, but merely to enumerate blessings. It is like when one man says to another: “Did I not give you great benefits, then raised your status, then repelled your opponents?” It may be that some of what he mentioned later took place first. The same can be said here. [Mafâtîh al-Ghayb (2/143)]
Al-Baydâwî writes:
Perhaps the word “then” (thumma) here is to indicate the disproportion between the two creations and the greater merit of the creation of the heavens over the creation of the Earth. This is like when Allah says: “Then (thumma) he had been among those who believed”. This is not to indicate its occurring later chronologically. [Tafsîr al-Baydâwî (1/27)]

Keep in mind that these commentators lived a long time ago (roughly 800 years back). They had no reason to worry about the scientific implications that we worry about today, because our current scientific knowledge about the formation of the universe and planets was not around back then. They were only concerned with the linguistic meaning of these verses and were speaking from a purely linguistic perspective.

These verses are simply not discussing the sequential order of the events of creation.

And Allah knows best.
Reply

- Qatada -
02-07-2008, 10:22 AM
That's sufficient to close the case. :) walhamdulillah.
Reply

------
02-07-2008, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
if in doubt there is always the dictionary

Arabic - English
ثُمَّ حــــــــــــرف حَرْفُ عَطْفٍ يُفِيدُ التَّرَاخِي = thouma
after that , next , then




http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...E-A&Sub=%cb%e3

:salamext:

I agree sis! 'wa' means 'and'.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-07-2008, 04:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
not all translators are scholars or vice versa, it doesn't change what it actually means!
Will an Arab uneducated in the matters of islamic science read "youm" as "a day" or "an undefined period of time"?

I think it couldn't be more clear, therein in that first (big bang) all the material for our known universe sprang forth.. no different than you having all the material you need to express yourself using only 26 letters of the alphabet.
that's one way to intepret it.

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}
[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,
وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}
[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,
وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}
[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,
فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}
[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,
فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}
[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,
يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}
[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.
تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}
[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,
قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}
[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully
that's interesting. May predictions were at least partly false. Are there any verses that indicate that the Earth is a planet around the sun?[/QUOTE]
Reply

جوري
02-07-2008, 07:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Will an Arab uneducated in the matters of islamic science read "youm" as "a day" or "an undefined period of time"?
An un-educated Arab, will probably not be able to read at all to issue some abstract thought to very sophisticated text.. I have visited with some mighty ignorant folks in Saudi Arabia who may as well have been living in pre-Islamic Arabia...

Many verses in the Quran allude that we are given little knowledge and that those who are knowledgeable are but a handful..
وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً {85}

17:85 and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
Also:

إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}

3) In the Quranic view, true authentic knowledge should make scientists/scholars the most pious and humble people toward God: “Among his Servants are those who have knowledge” (The Quran 35: 28).

we are also asked
So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [Surah 21:7]


And those who have been given Knowledge know that that which has been revealed to you from your Lord is the Truth [Surah 34:6]


that is why it is my personal belief that it doesn't matter how many Muslims we have in the world, so long as they are quality Muslims, learned Muslims, and it is certainly our duty to educate those ignorant in our midst, or at least do our best to correct their misconceptions, before we start with islamophobes... can't argue or refute matters if you haven't perfected your own knowledge?!



that's interesting. May predictions were at least partly false. Are there any verses that indicate that the Earth is a planet around the sun?
I think you should purchase A Quran copy from amazon, the one I have suggested..

here are some verses about our solar system
When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."

which speaks of 11 planets in our solar system with sun and moon a seperate ..
In many different suras celestial bodies are given different names, I am sure are unprecedented in previous scriptures.. such as khunas, kawakib, tariq, najm, shams, qamar, etc
I am excerpting this next piece from:
http://www.ummah.com/ifsa/pages/sect...my/astro5b.htm

Khunnas, kawakib, tariq (not taraiq), shams, qamar and najm, are the Quranic words for heavenly or celestial bodies. The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases, the kawakib are the orbiting planets, najm is a star, tariq a very bright night-or morning-star, in fact a planet, like Venus. Shams is the sun and qamar the moon. These bodies are clearly distinguished by their character and roles in the Quran. .
you can read about it in more detail and, in this sura.. hopefully it will prove more cohesive for you?



sura 81


AT-TAKWIR (SHROUDING IN DARKNESS)

THE EIGHTY-FIRST SURAH
Total Verses: 29
MECCA PERIOD



Introduction



THE conventional designation of this very early surah (most probably the seventh in the order of revelation) is derived from the verb kuwwirat, which occurs in the first verse and introduces the symbolic image of the Last Hour and, hence, of man's resurrection.



IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:



81: 1

WHEN THE SUN is shrouded in darkness,



82: 2

and when the stars lose their light,



81: 3

and when the mountains are made to vanish,*



* See 20:105-107 and the corresponding note 90; also note 63 on 14:48.



81: 4

and when she-camels big with young, about to give birth, are left untended,



81: 5

and when all beasts are gathered together,*



* I.e., when they crowd together in terror of the manifestation of the Last Hour, or as Mu’tazili commentators maintain - in order to be indemnified by God for man's cruelty to them (Razi). It is also said that the animals which were loved by human beings will live in the hereafter together with those who loved them (Zamakhshari). This interpretation is evidently based on 6:38 - "there is no beast that walks on earth and no bird that flies on its two wings which is not [God's] creature like yourselves" - followed almost immediately by the wordss, "Unto their Sustainer shall they [all] be gathered."



81: 6

and when the seas boil over,



81: 7

and when all human beings are coupled [with their deeds],*



* I.e., when none will be able to divest himself of responsibility for his past deeds.



81: 8

and when the girl-child that was buried alive is made to ask



81: 9

for what crime she had been slain,*



* The barbaric custom of burying female infants alive seems to have been fairly widespread in pre-Islamic Arabia, although perhaps not to the extent as has been commonly assumed. The motives were twofold: the fear that an increase of female offspring would result in economic burdens, as well as fear of the humiliation frequently caused by girls being captured by a hostile tribe and subsequently preferring their captors to their parents and brothers. Before Islam, one of the foremost opponents of this custom was Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nufayl, a cousin of Umar ibn al-Khattab and spiritually a precursor of Muhammad (cf. Bukhari, Fada'il Ashab an-Nabi on the authority of Abd Allah ibn Umar); he died shortly before Muhammad's call to prophethood (Fath al-Bari VII, 112). Another man, Sa‘sa‘ah ibn Najiyah at-Tamimi - grandfather of the poet Farazdaq - achieved equal fame as a saviour of infants thus condemned to death; he later embraced Islam. Ibn Khallikan (II, 197) mentions that Sa‘sa‘ah saved about thirty girls by paying ransom to their parents.



81: 10

and when the scrolls [of men's deeds] are unfolded,



81: 11

and when heaven is laid bare,



81: 12

and when the blazing fire [of hell] is kindled bright,



81: 13

and when paradise is brought into view:



81: 14

[on that Day] every human being will come to know what he has prepared [for himself].



81: 15

BUT NAY! I call to witness the revolving stars,



81: 16

the planets that run their course and set,



81: 17

and the night as it darkly falls,



81: 18

and the morn as it softly breathes:



81: 19

behold, this [divine writ] is indeed the [inspired] word of a noble apostle,*



* By "calling to witness" certain natural phenomena which are familiar to man because of their permanent recurrence, attention is drawn to the fact that what we call "laws of nature" are but the observable elements of God's plan of creation - a plan in which His revelations (referred to in this and the subsequent verses) play a decisive role: and so, by implication, the divine writ granted to Muhammad is as intrinsically "natural" as any other phenomenon, concrete or abstract, in the realm of God's creation.



81: 20

with strength endowed, secure with Him who in almightiness is enthroned*



* Lit., "with Him of the throne of almightiness". It is to be noted that the Qur'anic term ‘arsh - of which the above is the earliest occurrence in the order of revelation - invariably signifies God's absolute sovereignty and almightiness (cf. note 43 on 7:54).



81: 21

[the word] of one to be heeded, and worthy of trust!



81: 22

For, this fellow-man of yours is not a madman:*



* See surah 68, note 3. The characterization of Muhammad as "this fellow-man of yours" is meant to stress his absolute humanness, and thus to counteract any possibility on the part of his followers to deify him. (See also note 150 on 7:184.)



81: 23

he truly beheld [the angel - beheld] him on the clear horizon;*



* This is evidently a reference to the Prophet's vision of the Angel Gabriel which ended the break in revelation (fatrat al-wahy) mentioned in the introductory note to surah 74. See also 53:5 ff. and the corresponding notes.



81: 24

and he is not one to begrudge others the knowledge [of whatever has been revealed to him] out of that which is beyond the reach of human Perception.*



* Sc., "and so he conveys this revelation to you".



81: 25

Nor is this [message] the word of any satanic force accursed.*



* For my occasional rendering of shaytan as "satanic force", see first half of note 16 on 15:17.



81: 26

Whither, then, will you go?



81: 27

This [message] is no less than a reminder to all mankind –



81: 28

to everyone of you who wills to walk a straight way.



81: 29

But you cannot will it unless God, the Sustainer of all the worlds, wills [to show you that way].*



* I.e., "you can will it only because God has willed to show you the right way by means of the positive instincts which He has implanted in you, as well as through the revelations which He has bestowed on His prophets": implying that the choice of the right way is open to everyone who is willing to avail himself of God's universal guidance. (Cf. a similar passage in 76:29-30.)


peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
An un-educated Arab, will probably not be able to read at all to issue some abstract thought to very sophisticated text.. I have visited with some mighty ignorant folks in Saudi Arabia who may as well have been living in pre-Islamic Arabia...
:p
All I am asking is what the word youm's literal meaning is. does it have many literal meanings? Is an undefinite amount of time one of them?

here are some verses about our solar system
When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."

which speaks of 11 planets in our solar system with sun and moon a seperate ..
If it weren't for the moon, I'd be impressed.

In many different suras celestial bodies are given different names, I am sure are unprecedented in previous scriptures.. such as khunas, kawakib, tariq, najm, shams, qamar, etc
I am excerpting this next piece from:
Khunnas, kawakib, tariq (not taraiq), shams, qamar and najm, are the Quranic words for heavenly or celestial bodies. The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases, the kawakib are the orbiting planets, najm is a star, tariq a very bright night-or morning-star, in fact a planet, like Venus. Shams is the sun and qamar the moon. These bodies are clearly distinguished by their character and roles in the Quran. .
http://www.ummah.com/ifsa/pages/sect...my/astro5b.htm
I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.

Shall we dispute about the number of planets in our soalr system? No.
Muslims may claim such disctinctions are miraculous, IMO they're just the opposite.. Thy indicate that Muhammad may have thought Venus is a star, didn't know the number of planets and I have yet to find out which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas.
Reply

جوري
02-08-2008, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
:p
All I am asking is what the word youm's literal meaning is. does it have many literal meanings? Is an undefinite amount of time one of them?
Again depends on the context.. I can use youm with someone and mean an indefinite period of time!


If it weren't for the moon, I'd be impressed.
I don't see why?


I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.
It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!

Shall we dispute about the number of planets in our soalr system? No.
Muslims may claim such disctinctions are miraculous, IMO they're just the opposite.. Thy indicate that Muhammad may have thought Venus is a star, didn't know the number of planets and I have yet to find out which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas.
You can't dispute, because in fact you don't know how many planets there are.. recently pluto was demoted to non-planet, perhaps tomorrow one of the moon of jupiter will be promoted to a planet..
Many people modern day think jupiter can be its own sun.. lots of articles out there.. the universe is still widely a mystery..

You keep saying Muhammed (p), he didn't come with the book, if he did there would be error therein, it came from God, were it some other being, I would have had doubt.. but I don't...

Time can only transcend to us, more of its miracles, which in fact never cease!

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
Again depends on the context.. I can use youm with someone and mean an indefinite period of time!
Literally or metaphorically?
I don't see why?
Really?
I asked you to proved a verse indicating that the Earth revolves around the sun.
When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."
If it only mentioned the sun, it would imply in a way that the sun is connected to all the planets, that it is not common to the Earth only. However it mentions the moon, our moon only, despite the fact that there are other moons almost the size of Earth.
See where I'm getting at?
It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!
I don't understand.
You can't dispute, because in fact you don't know how many planets there are.. recently pluto was demoted to non-planet, perhaps tomorrow one of the moon of jupiter will be promoted to a planet..
Many people modern day think jupiter can be its own sun.. lots of articles out there.. the universe is still widely a mystery..
I know, that's what I said "No"
Although, with the latest definition of a planet, there are almost certainly only 8. By the old definition, there are much more, one of them being Pluto.

You keep saying Muhammed (p), he didn't come with the book, if he did there would be error therein, it came from God, were it some other being, I would have had doubt.. but I don't...
I think "..."'s are in place...

Time can only transcend to us, more of its miracles, which in fact never cease!
Yes, because most of them are rubbish.
sorry.:thumbs_up

PS: Which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas?
Reply

جوري
02-08-2008, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Literally or metaphorically?
Again, depends on the context and situation!
Really?
Really what?

I asked you to proved a verse indicating that the Earth revolves around the sun.
I told you, you need to read the Quran as a whole and not ask me to bring excerpts ( I myself am still learning).. other than that, you are not an exegetical scholar, as to subject any verses to scrutiny!

When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."
If it only mentioned the sun, it would imply in a way that the sun is connected to all the planets, that it is not common to the Earth only. However it mentions the moon, our moon only, despite the fact that there are other moons almost the size of Earth.
See where I'm getting at?
No, I really don't!.. there are many meanings to that verse, the one most obvious being His siblings and Jacob P visiting him in awe and prostration when he held control over Egypt! which is in fact what happened in the end! You should read the whole sura.. other cryptic meanings to the verse, are subject to a million explanation!

I don't understand.
Don't understand what?

I know, that's what I said "No"
Although, with the latest definition of a planet, there are almost certainly only 8. By the old definition, there are much more, one of them being Pluto.
How many solar systems do you know of are in existence? and how many do you know of our direct solar system? Again, no one knows what will be promoted or demoted in the next fifty years or so.. Neither of us is an astronmer! for now I'll take the Quran over an evolving science!


I think "..."'s are in place...
???



Yes, because most of them are rubbish.
sorry.:thumbs_up
You may think so, millions of others don't-- by no means does your opinion upset me.. We walk different paths and I have already treaded on areas of doubt and drawn my conclusions.. surely no two people view something in the same exact way.. thus we part ways on what you deem rubbish and I deem providential!

PS: Which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas?
refer to page I have provided prior. I am sorry I am really pressed for time today..

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
Again, depends on the context and situation!
:)
Is its aeonic meaning ever literal or does one always have to refer to other verses? (such as the one about 1 day = 1000 years)

Here's some english to arabic to english...
َهَار اســــــــــــم ضِدّ لَيْل
day , daytime
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...37;e4%e5%c7%d1
This one is more like it:
يَوْم اســــــــــــم 24 ساعَة
today , day
وَقْت
point of time , period , time
http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...b=%20%ed%e6%e3
What is the literal maning of the word youm in the verses describing the creation?


Don't understand what?
format_quote Originally Posted by You
format_quote Originally Posted by Me
I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.
It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!
This.

How many solar systems do you know of are in existence? and how many do you know of our direct solar system? Again, no one knows what will be promoted or demoted in the next fifty years or so.. Neither of us is an astronmer! for now I'll take the Quran over an evolving science!
Does the evrse apply to all solar systems in existence? Then it's way wrong, so far over 100 planets have been discovered in the Milky way alone...and there are probably billions.
As I said, the number of planets depends on the definition of a planet so yeah, no one can really disprove the verse...
I do however think only 8 planets exists by the current definition and I don't think new ones will be discovered, as the definition has become stricter and our solar system and its neighborhood rather well explored. As I said, the older definition covers more than 11 planets. But there might be a definition, that encompasses exactly 11 planets...

???
I wanted to say I do not think the Quran is error-free.

You may think so, millions of others don't-- by no means does your opinion upset me.. We walk different paths and I have already treaded on areas of doubt and drawn my conclusions.. surely no two people view something in the same exact way.. thus we part ways on what you deem rubbish and I deem providential!
:thumbs_up

refer to page I have provided prior. I am sorry I am really pressed for time today..
the page is the reason I posed the question..
The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases
Reply

جوري
02-08-2008, 11:02 PM
You have posted in the first 'Nahar' not 'youm' with your first quote
youm is well defined for you in your own 2nd quote as 'period' of time along with other defintions, thus, and I say this hopefully for the last time, it depends on the context of the text! to be compounded by the fact, as is in the Quran and cited prior, a 'day' for us isn't the same in God's measure.. there really can be no more argument left as to its meaning, short of folks who seek to give it, their own preferred meaning but in fact has no weight as far as understood by scholars!

As for strict or loose interpretation, merely the last ten years have changed the definition of what we deem planets in our immediate solar system.. I have no doubt that will continue to change as time moves along!
Whether obvious or cryptic.. The Quran is a sibylline book and IS infallible!



فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالْخُنَّسِ {15}
[Pickthal 81:15] Oh, but I call to witness the planets,

الْجَوَارِ الْكُنَّسِ

that recede (i.e. disappear during the day and appear during the night..

none of the defintions are actually adequate.. to begin with the word 'fala' in the beginning of that sentence is in the negative, I find that no translator is able to find an adequate word to affirm in the negative.. it is as if to say 'I need not call you attention to, I need not swear by---


* By "calling to witness" certain natural phenomena which are familiar to man because of their permanent recurrence, attention is drawn to the fact that what we call "laws of nature" are but the observable elements of God's plan of creation - a plan in which His revelations (referred to in this and the subsequent verses) play a decisive role: and so, by implication, the divine writ granted to Muhammad is as intrinsically "natural" as any other phenomenon, concrete or abstract, in the realm of God's creation.


cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE]
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
You have posted in the first 'Nahar' not 'youm' with your first quote
youm is well defined for you in your own 2nd quote as 'period' of time along with other defintions, thus, and I say this hopefully for the last time, it depends on the context of the text! to be compounded by the fact, as is in the Quran and cited prior, a 'day' for us isn't the same in God's measure.. there really can be no more argument left as to its meaning, short of folks who seek to give it, their own preferred meaning but in fact has no weight as far as understood by scholars!
Ok, and I ask for the last time, what is the literal (so without refering to other verses) meaning of the word in the verses describing the creation?

As for strict or loose interpretation, merely the last ten years have changed the definition of what we deem planets in our immediate solar system.. I have no doubt that will continue to change as time moves along!
It may.
Whether obvious or cryptic.. The Quran is a sibylline book and IS infallible!
It may be.

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالْخُنَّسِ {15}
[Pickthal 81:15] Oh, but I call to witness the planets,

الْجَوَارِ الْكُنَّسِ

that recede (i.e. disappear during the day and appear during the night..
Why does the Quran make a distinction between orbiting planets (kawakib) and planets that "disappear during the day and appear during the night"(Khunnas)?
First, I am not sure any planet is visible during the day, and second, all planets are orbiting planets...

One question: why is it sometimes peace and sometimes cheers?:)
Reply

جوري
02-08-2008, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ok, and I ask for the last time, what is the literal (so without refering to other verses) meaning of the word in the verses describing the creation?
It isn't a word that I or most people use, there are many alternatives 'bokra' 'inaharda' 'sob7' 'ma'sa' 'fi khilal arba3a wa 3shreen sa3a'
When something is meant for a very short period of time, you'll see it referred to as such, within the Quran itself. And I Quote


كَأَنَّهُمْ يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَهَا لَمْ يَلْبَثُوا إِلَّا عَشِيَّةً أَوْ ضُحَاهَا {46}
[Pickthal 79:46] On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.
common knowledge again, that the 'day of judgement' will not be a 'day' at all.. The period of standing will last for 50,000 years.. I reference you to http://www.islamworlduk.com/scripts/...a.asp?extra=13
However, and the verse ends, when they see it (as in hell) they'll feel as if they have tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.. very specific, '3ashytan, aw da'7aha' this you can get technical about because it is very specific.
Youm means a day or period.. a day not necessairly by 24 hour standards..




Why does the Quran make a distinction between orbiting planets (kawakib) and planets that "disappear during the day and appear during the night"(Khunnas)?
First, I am not sure any planet is visible during the day, and second, all planets are orbiting planets...
I am not sure, there in fact many different names and I don't think they mean the same thing..you may give me a brief while to check it but I doubt it is a mere language.. I am truly not sure what they are..
let me call to your attention that people often refer to 'paradise' as Janna, meaning heaven, eden whatever you call paradise, but the actual literal meaning of the word, is that which is hidden from sight.. you come to learn that when you see derivatives of the word like jinoon (craziness) or (jinn) .. one there is a state where we dont exactly know what has ailed the mind, (hidden) as well as Jinn (which are creatures also hidden from sight) so.. there is more to the words than just knowing Arabic.. I suspect they are celestial bodies that we may or may not have identified.. Allah knows best.. of this matter I'd PM someone like Ansar Al 'Adl, he seems like an exegetical expert. I don't wish to mislead you, with something well beyond my sphere of expertise!

One question: why is it sometimes peace and sometimes cheers?:)
:lol: depends on, whether I am feeling peaceful or cheerful :shade:

now I feel awkward on how to close this encounter.. :p
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-09-2008, 12:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone
:lol: depends on, whether I am feeling peaceful or cheerful :shade:

now I feel awkward on how to close this encounter.. :p
Rofl:D

Otherwise, it seems the day-aeon dispute has been solved... and we'll never agree on the other issues, so I see is no point in keeping this thread open..
Reply

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