Hezbollah declares Open War on Israel

[The_Prince]

Lebanon's Hezbollah opposition chief declared "open war" on Israel on Thursday while hundreds of thousands of government supporters filled central Beirut to remember slain ex-premier Rafiq Hariri.

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"Zionists, if you want this kind of open war, then let the whole world listen: Let this war be open," Hassan Nasrallah said in a speech broadcast on a giant screen at the funeral of slain top Hezbollah commander Imad Mughnieh.

The militant was killed in Damascus on Tuesday by a car bombing which Hezbollah has blamed on Israel.

"The blood of Imad Mughnieh will contribute to the disappearance of the Jewish state," said Nasrallah, whose fighters claimed victory in the devastating July-August 2006 war against Israel.

"You killed him outside our natural battleground," he said in a fiery speech. "Our battleground with you is on Lebanese territory and you have overstepped the border."

In Israel, which welcomed Mughnieh's killing but has denied involvement, military radio said Nasrallah was now openly threatening Israeli targets abroad.

Its anti-terrorism office advised citizens abroad to take extra precautions.

And Israeli chief of staff Lieutenant General Gaby Ashkenazi "ordered land, air and naval forces on alert to ensure defence of the northern border and of other interests in the country" following Mughnieh's death.

The United States called Nasrallah's warning alarming.

"As a general matter, those kinds of statements are quite concerning and they should be alarming to everyone," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack told reporters.

"Quite clearly Hezbollah has a long record of carrying out violent acts, acts of terrorism around the globe."

The Beirut mourners, waving yellow Hezbollah flags, repeatedly punched the air as their charismatic leader who tops Israel's Most Wanted list stressed his points with a jabbing finger.

"The July war is not over, it is ongoing and no ceasefire was ever declared," he said of Israel's 34-day long offensive which failed to recover two captured soldiers or halt militant rocket attacks.

A Hezbollah spokesman said at least 20,000 people, including Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki, attended the funeral in the Shiite Muslim group's southern suburbs stronghold.

"Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah need only say one word for us to fight the Zionist enemy," shouted Ali Zaydan, a young Hezbollah supporter.

On a day of mass rival rallies and high tension, there had been fears of clashes between rival pro- and anti-Syrian factions, and security personnel were deployed in force in Beirut.

Government supporters packed a rain-sodden Martyrs' Square in centre of the capital to mark the third anniversary of five-time prime minister Hariri's assassination by a car bomb on the Beirut seafront.

Members of the Western-backed parliamentary majority, led by Hariri's son Saad, have blamed Syria for Hariri's death and those of other anti-Damascus figures killed in the past three years.

Syria, which like Iran supports Hezbollah, has repeatedly denied involvement.

Members of the ruling coalition demanded an end to the long-running presidential deadlock and accused Syria of continuing to meddle in Lebanese politics.

Lebanon has been without a president since November when pro-Syrian Emile Lahoud's term ended. It has been mired in political crisis since Hariri's murder, which sparked outrage and forced Syrian troops out after a 29-year deployment.

"Today you have come again to say we want a president. And we say to you we will have a president," Saad Hariri told the Lebanese flag-waving crowd.

In Washington, McCormack told reporters the anniversary was a reminder "about the sacrifices that many around the world and in Lebanon are making to build a strong, democratic state."

UN chief Ban Ki-moon in a statement reaffirmed the world body's resolve to help establish the truth and bring those who killed Hariri to justice.

Meanwhile, Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei sent his condolences to Nasrallah, hailing Mughnieh. "It should make the Lebanese proud to have given the world such great men," he said.

Mughnieh, in his late 40s, was also on America's Most Wanted list for his role in a string of attacks in the 1980s and 1990s against US and Israeli targets, including the bombing of the US marine barracks in Beirut in 1983.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080214...4R.suAz0kUewgF

btw folks there is actually no solid evidence, infact there is NO evidence that mughnieh was responsible for the attacks against the American barracks and American embassy in beirut. :)

[guyabano]

...top Hezbollah commander Imad Mughnieh.

oh well, to express it in your language: 'One less to go' ! That's a good news

Peace

[krypton6]

May he rest in peace.

Couldn't agree more with Nasrallah, god bless him and may the future bring him a great victory.

[Moon*Light]

:sl:

^ Ameen bro, lol the Israelis are going crazy right now. I heard on the news that they have asked Israelis outside not to even speak Hebrew or go to public places. Worldwide fear on their part, it has been so long that someone has put fear on their hearts, alhamdulilah.

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[Trumble]

Hmmm... you say 'fear', but I rather suspect the Israelis will see it more as 'opportunity'.

[Moon*Light]

No man I saw them on TV, they were freaked. They say they may keep the alert for months, hmmm costing them a lot in every way.

[MTAFFI]

i heard hezbollah assasinated this man as a way to declare war on Israel and give their cause there and in the west more weight

[MTAFFI]

No man I saw them on TV, they were freaked. They say they may keep the alert for months, hmmm costing them a lot in every way.

i doubt the israelis are "freaked".... How many Israelis died in their last spat? If hezbollah attacks they will be pummeled by a barrage of missles, aircraft, etc etc... Then when Israel stops they will declare victory while standing in a crater or on a pile of rubble... the middle east truly saddens me

[MaiCarInMtl]

i heard hezbollah assasinated this man as a way to declare war on Israel and give their cause there and in the west more weight

I wouldn't be surprised... but when it comes to politics in Lebanon, I am not too surprised by anything anymore.

Other possibilities: Syria was in on it - he was killed on Syrian soil. Israel too...

Yet once more, the innocent civilians of Lebanon will pay the ultimate price. People will come in from the outside, have their war on lebanese soil and go back home once it's done; leaving these people to pick up the pieces yet again!

[Na7lah]

i saw Hassan on da TV he was shouting like he was
going to blow up with anger or somfin

[ahsan28]

Yet once more, the innocent civilians of Lebanon will pay the ultimate price. People will come in from the outside, have their war on lebanese soil and go back home once it's done; leaving these people to pick up the pieces yet again!

Wonders of proxy wars.

[S_87]

i doubt the israelis are "freaked".... How many Israelis died in their last spat? If hezbollah attacks they will be pummeled by a barrage of missles, aircraft, etc etc... Then when Israel stops they will declare victory while standing in a crater or on a pile of rubble... the middle east truly saddens me

of course they are freaked if they are closing up borders. israelis are stupid, blood thirsty criminals, they wont attack hizbullah they will attack innocent people.

[Keltoi]

It isn't like these kinds of threats are anything new to Israel. Who knows who killed this guy, but I'm sure Hezbollah will use it the best way they can. Of course the phrase "open warfare" is also misleading, since nothing Hezbollah does is "open warfare".

[Cognescenti]

...btw folks there is actually no solid evidence, infact there is NO evidence that mughnieh was responsible for the attacks against the American barracks and American embassy in beirut. :)

Who cares. The TWA hijacking is plenty of reason for him to assume room temperature.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4282992&page=1


May he rest in pieces.

[Cognescenti]

It isn't like these kinds of threats are anything new to Israel. Who knows who killed this guy, but I'm sure Hezbollah will use it the best way they can. Of course the phrase "open warfare" is also misleading, since nothing Hezbollah does is "open warfare".

It's a translation problem from the Arabic..."open warfare" can also mean "put 1000 lbs of C4 in an old Mercedes and park it in front of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires"

[Roasted Cashew]

Though I am a Sunni, I will always support Hezbollah. God bless Nasrallah. I hate Taliban and Al-Qaeda and recognize them as terrorists group but certainly not Hezbollah. I love George Galloway and how he took on the Zionist Media during the Lebanon-Israel war.

George Galloway Savages SKY NEWS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

[wilberhum]

One more victory like the last and Lebanon won't exist.

[Moon*Light]

Well MTAFFI, they are very freaked out, yesterday I watched a report about the movement on the Lebanese- "Israeli" border, zip not an Israeli in sight, all the soldiers are hiding lol!

Spat? Even the Israelis called it a war and many were killed, why do you think one of the reasons they opened an investigation on the war. Read up about Winograd report and you'll know how serious this is.

[Moon*Light]

Wilberhum, no matter how much you and others mock the man or Hizba'Allah facts are facts, the Israelis lost a war and now they made a very big mistake. Look up their news and you'll see what I mean.

[S_87]

Though I am a Sunni, I will always support Hezbollah. God bless Nasrallah. I hate Taliban and Al-Qaeda and recognize them as terrorists group but certainly not Hezbollah

al qaeda- fine, but the taliban terrorists? they are fighting for their land just like the palestinians are fighting for theirs. if thats terrorism then so is hizbullah

[Woodrow]

Simple math problem

Threats cause Fear
Fear causes retaliation
Retaliation causes counter Retaliation
counter Retaliation causes Threats

Hypothesis: Threat+Fear+Retaliation +counter Retaliation=More innocents suffer

[guyabano]

Wilberhum, no matter how much you and others mock the man or Hizba'Allah facts are facts, the Israelis lost a war and now they made a very big mistake. Look up their news and you'll see what I mean.

Just to correct you:

Israel has next to US the strongest and hightec army in the world. You will not tell me that Israelis ever lost a war, specially not against bimbos than Hamas.

Peace

[Trumble]

al qaeda- fine, but the taliban terrorists? they are fighting for their land just like the palestinians are fighting for theirs.

Oh, rubbish. The Taliban are not fighting for 'their land'.. nobody is threatening their land, or would be if they actually had any for doing anything other than grow opium poppies (and that even generally belongs to other people who would rather both the Taliban and Afghan Government/Coalition troops would just leave them alone). They are fighting for their ideology, not their real-estate. That doesn't necessarily make them 'terrorists' either, of course. It is what that 'fighting' involves that determines that.

[ahsan28]

Though I am a Sunni, I will always support Hezbollah. God bless Nasrallah. I hate Taliban and Al-Qaeda and recognize them as terrorists group but certainly not Hezbollah. I love George Galloway and how he took on the Zionist Media during the Lebanon-Israel war.

George Galloway Savages SKY NEWS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw

The significant difference however remains that Israel-Hezbollah war ended after 34 days with a peace treaty. A safe zone was created for Israel to protect Israelis from crude rockets. Nasrallah appeared on local TV and regretted the decision about going into war against zionists. On the contrary Talibans are fighting for the last six years, never regretted their decision to fight for freedom and have rejected any kind of peace deal until occupation forces leave Afghanistan :D

[The_Prince]

hezbollah did win the war. its amazing that the ppl who think that Israel won the war is simply based on the death toll and destruction!

folks you do know winning a war is not about many ppl you kill, or how many buildings you destroy, the ppl using this as an argument PROVE ISRAEL lost the war because only losers bring up death toll as a means of victory.

israel set out 2 objectives:

-destroy Hezbollah

-save their 2 kidnapped soldiers

did israel achieve any of these goals? NO, NO. hence they failed their mission objectives hence they fail the war. if you go into a war with objectives and you achieve none of it then this counts as a loss and disaster!

heck go look at the israeli report! the israeli report speaks for itself admiting they didnt win the war.

Hezbollah fired more rockets on the last day of the war than any other day in the war! and that my friends says it all.

[The_Prince]

lets look at an exmaple, up to 9500 israelis died in the 1973 war, and up to 8000-15000 syrian plus egyptions were killed.

does that mean Israel won the war because they may have killed more enemies?

at the end of the war egypt regained sinia, but no israel still won cause they killed more right?!

ppl who think war is based on who kills more and who destroys more seriously know nothing about war and need to stop watching rambo.

[guyabano]

Israel simply didn't eliminate Hezbollah because of the worldwide political impact. But military seen, Hezbollah is an easy target for Israel.
So stop talking, that Hezbollahl won any war against Israel. This makes it ridiculous

Peace

[Suomipoika]

lets look at an exmaple, up to 9500 israelis died in the 1973 war, and up to 8000-15000 syrian plus egyptions were killed.

does that mean Israel won the war because they may have killed more enemies?

at the end of the war egypt regained sinia, but no israel still won cause they killed more right?!

ppl who think war is based on who kills more and who destroys more seriously know nothing about war and need to stop watching rambo.

Israel won because they had trapped Eqyptian army, had stopped all the attacks against their territory, pushed back the Syrians, and were on their way to Cairo accross the Suez Canal.

That Israel was ready to give up Sinai doesnt mean they were defeated. They were smart and showed that Israelis are ready to make peace if you are reasonable. And look, as part of the peace treaty, Egypt is one of the few arab countries that recognice Israel. Israel didnt completely withdraw from Sinai until 1979-82.

[Cognescenti]

lets look at an exmaple, up to 9500 israelis died in the 1973 war, and up to 8000-15000 syrian plus egyptions were killed.

does that mean Israel won the war because they may have killed more enemies?

at the end of the war egypt regained sinia, but no israel still won cause they killed more right?!

ppl who think war is based on who kills more and who destroys more seriously know nothing about war and need to stop watching rambo.

Dood;

I agree with you that Israel did not "win" the fracas vs Hezbollah chiefly because they failed to stop all rocket attacks on Northern Israel, but if you think Hezbollah won you are seriously deluded.

What is different about this last episode was Israel didn't win decisively in 6-14 days as they are accustomed, nor did the Arab side lose embarrasingly.

Israel simply had unrealistic goals and seemed to have a start and stop approach.

Hezbollah completely underestimated the Israeli response, lost more fighters than the Israelis, got a fair amount of infrastructure in Southern Lebanon destroyed, killed half a dozen Israeli citizens by firing literally thousands of rockets and ultimately lost its fortress villages in Southern Lebanon. That was quite a vicotry wasn't it?

I can ceraintly see why Arabs see it as a victory given past experinece. It was a bit more competent than the usual affair.


As for the Yom Kippur War, if you think that was anything other than a decisive Israeli victory we are not speaking English. In the end, the Israeli Air Force had control, there was an entire Egyptian army surrounded on the East bank of the Suez and nothing to stop Sharon from driving to Cairo. The Syrians lost almost all their armor and lost back the Golan and Damascas was vulnerable. The only thing that stopped the humiliation was the Soviet Union mobilizing several airborne divisions and telling the US to make it stop, or else. The US made it stop.

[Trumble]

does that mean Israel won the war because they may have killed more enemies?

No, but I'm afraid the others are right. They in fact won the war because they succeeded in their primary objectives and the Arab side completely failed in theirs, in both Sinai and Golan. The return of the Sinai had nothing to do with that war... it was part of the Israeli/Egyptian peace deal agreed at Camp David five years later. The best the 1973 war did for the Arabs was restore some military pride following the 1967 debacle, the Israeli position in the Golan in particular was on a knife-edge at one point and Syrian victory a distinct possibility.

[The_Prince]

its so funny how you zionist supportters talk lots of garbage about israeli victory in 73.

the israelis did surround one section of the egyption army but the egyption general in charge of everything asked sadat to be allowed to send a force which could have fought the israelis off but sadat rejected

and most of israels gain such as surrounding the troops came AFTER the cease-fire! wow how special.

so you can spew the empty zionist garbage, but facts are facts and no they didnt win the war.

the fact some of you say the Arabs lost the war and all their objectives prove your very stupid and bias because one of the main objective was to bring sinia back and negotiate a treaty with Israel.

and last i checked, they did those 2.

israel lost, now get over it.

[The_Prince]

israel didnt win the lebanon war, nor against the 2 intifidas so i dont know which conflicts you zionist fans are watching.

[krypton6]

The IDF recently made a full detailed report where they admitted that "Israel" did in fact lose that particular war.

Israel is militarily speaking 99% supported by america, so when you say "Israel" you are in fact saying america. Yet Hezbollah and Nasrallah managed to fight and defeat the worlds second greatest military super power.

I saw a ridiculous comment with a cartoon showing Nasrallah hiding under a woman, but when did Nasrallah hide? Hezbollah are not hiding anywhere, they fight alone far away from civilians and they sleep at home wherever that may be, Israelis just happend to be cowards striking Hezbollah soldiers while they are asleep, not to mention that they are deliberately striking civilians most of the time. If a neighborhood is in Hezbollah's territory then it is according to IDF acceptable to carpet bomb the whole neighborhood, even though they very often do carpet bomb outside of Hezbollah neighborhoods.

Regarding the war..

Hezbollah's strenght was: 600-1,000 easily trained soldiers and 3,000-10,000 voluntears.
Israel's strenght was: 10,000-30,000 highly trained soldiers.

Hezbollah lost 250 men (some voluntears some soldiers).
Israel lost 121 men (soldiers).

850-1200 Lebanese killed (civilians), 4410 injured.
44 Israelis killed ("civilians"), 1500 injured.

Keep in mind that Hezbollah only had cheap rockets to launch, while "Israel" had everything they needed.

Did Hezbollah do a hell of a good job!? Hell yeah! :happy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...o_fact_box.jpg - Here you can see what areas they bombed, (the entire Lebanon is apparantly Hezbollah territory!)

Dont worry this one happend in "Israel". Sooo beautiful and it wasent even a large rocket.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

israel didnt win the lebanon war, nor against the 2 intifidas so i dont know which conflicts you zionist fans are watching.

Who did you refer to by that words "zionist fans"? Hopefully, not us Muslims.

Wa salaam

Sister Fatima

[Trumble]

so you can spew the empty zionist garbage, but facts are facts and no they didnt win the war.

Facts are indeed facts. Just a pity you are confusing them with your revisionist fantasies.

[Roasted Cashew]

al qaeda- fine, but the taliban terrorists? they are fighting for their land just like the palestinians are fighting for theirs. if thats terrorism then so is hizbullah

Well they didn't hand over the Al-Qaeda terrorists which were in their country and instead choose to go to war which was then responsible for so many deaths of Afghani people. They are also behind some Suicide bombings in Pakistan. They are also extremists. They don't allow education to women and it's also reported that they killed a few girls who choose to go to school. I am sorry sister. But, I don't see them as fighting for their land. They choose to protect OSAMA, that just says it all.

[Roasted Cashew]

israel didnt win the lebanon war, nor against the 2 intifidas so i dont know which conflicts you zionist fans are watching.

These filthy Zionists live in their own delusional world. Israel is a brutal, filthy and accursed nation "whose destiny is manifested in our blood and in our motto", Death to the brutal,filthy and accursed regime of Israel.

[Roasted Cashew]

Facts are indeed facts. Just a pity you are confusing them with your revisionist fantasies.

WOW, a peace-loving Buddhist supports the Zionist regime? I am just baffled. Now maybe when the Chinese screw up the Dalai Lama, you would maybe start to understand a little of our sufferings.

[Trumble]

WOW, a peace-loving Buddhist supports the Zionist regime? I am just baffled.

You are probably baffled because you seem unable to distinguish between two totally different things.

Nowhere have I said, or indicated, that I support the "Zionist regime". I have, however, pointed out some facts regarding a historical event, the 1973 war. Those facts do not change depending on what anybody might happen to 'support' or otherwise 25 years later... no matter how much The_Prince might wish they would.

[Roasted Cashew]

You are probably baffled because you seem unable to distinguish between two totally different things.

Nowhere have I said, or indicated, that I support the "Zionist regime". I have, however, pointed out some facts regarding a historical event, the 1973 war. Those facts do not change depending on what anybody might happen to 'support' or otherwise 25 years later... no matter how much The_Prince might wish they would.

So what facts are exactly you are talking about. Can you list down them as to how you are saying something different than "the_prince". Something like:

1.the_prince=
you=

2.the_prince=
you=

I'm really sorry for asking so much but I would really like to understand as to what is that you two are arguing about which I failed to grasp.

[Trumble]

So what facts are exactly you are talking about. Can you list down them as to how you are saying something different than "the_prince". Something like:

1.the_prince=
you=

2.the_prince=
you=

I'm really sorry for asking so much but I would really like to understand as to what is that you two are arguing about which I failed to grasp.

Very well.

We seem to agree on one point; that the 'winner' of that (or any) war should be considered the side that best achieves their objectives at the outset of the campaign. The_Prince is suggesting that it is a 'fact' that the Arab side did so, and 'won' while the Israelis failed to do so and therefore 'lost'. He seems to think that the only reason people might think there was an Israeli victory was because they killed more enemy soldiers (which is not disputed), but nowhere can I see any evidence anybody does think that.

The facts are as follows. The Arab side had two objectives in 1973, the Egyptians to seize back the Sinai and the Syrians the Golan Heights, both territories having been occupied by Israel in 1967. They had several reasons for wanting to do so, not only restoration of pride and territorial integrity but both areas, particularly Golan, were of considerable strategic importance as buffer zones between Israel and hostile neighbours. The Israelis had the objectives of retaining control of those areas and (should things have gone really pear-shaped) of preventing further Syrian incursion into Israeli controlled territory. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Golan Heights, indeed they had pushed the Syrians back beyond the 1967 border. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Sinai, and their troops had crossed the canal and were pushing on into Egypt. While Egyptian troops remained on parts of the east bank of the canal their position was, by that time, untenable and withdrawl would have been inevitable (if it was still possible) to prevent being surrounded and cut off. In my opinion, therefore, the Israelis achieved all their objectives and the Arabs none (other than, as I said earlier, perhaps restoring some military pride). I see no evidence whatsoever that supports the reverse conclusion.

Several years later, the Sinai was returned to Egypt as part of the Israel/Egypt peace agreement. The_Prince seems to be claiming that this was somehow a direct consequence of Egyptian military success and formed part of the cease-fire terms. It did not. Both Egypt and Israel had good reasons to do a deal (and the Israelis were under huge pressure from the Americans to do so).. a deal which, incidently, was roundly condemned by most other Arab nations which is hardly indicitive that THEY saw it as any sort of 'victory'. The Israelis were happy enough to hand it over as they had no real territorial claim there, it is mostly uninhabited desert and, with peace agreed, no need for a military buffer zone. Such a peace was never agreed with Syria, hence the Israelis remain in possession of the Golan.

As you will appreciate, all of that has nothing whatsoever to do with who may 'support' the "Zionist regime" or not. There are a great many articles on the war available on the internet from a variety of sources, so you may wish to do some further research yourself if you are interested.

[Roasted Cashew]

Very well.

We seem to agree on one point; that the 'winner' of that (or any) war should be considered the side that best achieves their objectives at the outset of the campaign. The_Prince is suggesting that it is a 'fact' that the Arab side did so, and 'won' while the Israelis failed to do so and therefore 'lost'. He seems to think that the only reason people might think there was an Israeli victory was because they killed more enemy soldiers (which is not disputed), but nowhere can I see any evidence anybody does think that.

The facts are as follows. The Arab side had two objectives in 1973, the Egyptians to seize back the Sinai and the Syrians the Golan Heights, both territories having been occupied by Israel in 1967. They had several reasons for wanting to do so, not only restoration of pride and territorial integrity but both areas, particularly Golan, were of considerable strategic importance as buffer zones between Israel and hostile neighbours. The Israelis had the objectives of retaining control of those areas and (should things have gone really pear-shaped) of preventing further Syrian incursion into Israeli controlled territory. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Golan Heights, indeed they had pushed the Syrians back beyond the 1967 border. The war ended with Israel in possession of the Sinai, and their troops had crossed the canal and were pushing on into Egypt. While Egyptian troops remained on parts of the east bank of the canal their position was, by that time, untenable and withdrawl would have been inevitable (if it was still possible) to prevent being surrounded and cut off. In my opinion, therefore, the Israelis achieved all their objectives and the Arabs none (other than, as I said earlier, perhaps restoring some military pride). I see no evidence whatsoever that supports the reverse conclusion.

Several years later, the Sinai was returned to Egypt as part of the Israel/Egypt peace agreement. The_Prince seems to be claiming that this was somehow a direct consequence of Egyptian military success and formed part of the cease-fire terms. It did not. Both Egypt and Israel had good reasons to do a deal (and the Israelis were under huge pressure from the Americans to do so).. a deal which, incidently, was roundly condemned by most other Arab nations which is hardly indicitive that THEY saw it as any sort of 'victory'. The Israelis were happy enough to hand it over as they had no real territorial claim there, it is mostly uninhabited desert and, with peace agreed, no need for a military buffer zone. Such a peace was never agreed with Syria, hence the Israelis remain in possession of the Golan.

As you will appreciate, all of that has nothing whatsoever to do with who may 'support' the "Zionist regime" or not. There are a great many articles on the war available on the internet from a variety of sources, so you may wish to do some further research yourself if you are interested.

I would agree with you on this one. Indeed Israel "WON".

[krypton6]

Well they didn't hand over the Al-Qaeda terrorists which were in their country and instead choose to go to war which was then responsible for so many deaths of Afghani people. They are also behind some Suicide bombings in Pakistan. They are also extremists. They don't allow education to women and it's also reported that they killed a few girls who choose to go to school. I am sorry sister. But, I don't see them as fighting for their land. They choose to protect OSAMA, that just says it all.

There are no al-Qaida "terrorists", attacking the same people feeding the forces traumatizing every muslims life is not terrorism.

They have their bad sides and their good sides. They allow education to woman but since the people are poor they will have to chose between educating the boy or the girl, and the logical would be too educate the boy instead of the girl. They have never ever executed any person for anything other than public zina and national betrayel.

[Trumble]

They allow education to woman but since the people are poor they will have to chose between educating the boy or the girl, and the logical would be too educate the boy instead of the girl.

Where on earth did you get that fairy story from? As excuses go that is utterly pathetic.

[Moon*Light]

Israel has next to US the strongest and hightec army in the world. You will not tell me that Israelis ever lost a war, specially not against bimbos than Hamas.

You know it is really not my job or problem to educate you about what happened in the 2006 war and what the Israelis themselves have admitted that they have failed and were defeated. Heck if they admitted that why do you and others keep denying it?

*shrug* they also take the threat issued by Hizba'Allah very seriously.

To quote Perez, in 2006 war, it is an issue of life and death.

In the end all we have to do is wait and see no? :)

[krypton6]

Where on earth did you get that fairy story from? As excuses go that is utterly pathetic.

I reached the conclusion by thinking logically. The people are very poor, noone can aford sending both the boy and the girl to school, they will have to chose either the boy or the girl, the logic goes that you chose the boy because he is the one who is going to take care of his future family (and current), while the girl will be taken care of by her future husband.
They are just trying to survive, it seems perfectly fine to me that they educate boys and not girls.

Its a brilliant excuse working perfectly fine and fully justifying why woman were not educated under the Taliban.

[wilberhum]

woman were not educated under the Taliban.

They see no value because they are misogynistic barbarians.

[Cognescenti]

Prince;

Come on man. You have a semblance of an arugment on the 2006 thing but the Yom Kippur war, although a close run thing at the start for the Israelis (as they were caught unprepared with no mobilization) was an astounding military victory for the Israelis.

They crossed the Suez Canal under the eyes of a fully prepared Egyptian Army, defeated all counterattacks, cut off an entire Egyptian Army and were 40 miles from Cairo :omg:

Don't give any BS about American equipement either. They had some British tanks and obscolescent American tanks but the Egyptians had the best stuff the Russians had.

I suggest to look to other possible explanations for the Arab defeat. I know it stings a bit, but that doesn't make it any less real.

A picture is worth a thousand words:

[Roasted Cashew]

Prince;

Come on man. You have a semblance of an arugment on the 2006 thing but the Yom Kippur war, although a close run thing at the start for the Israelis (as they were caught unprepared with no mobilization) was an astounding military victory for the Israelis.

They crossed the Suez Canal under the eyes of a fully prepared Egyptian Army, defeated all counterattacks, cut off an entire Egyptian Army and were 40 miles from Cairo :omg:

This reminds me of another frequently asked question:
Why did seven well equipped Arab armies attempt to destroy the poorly armed and newly founded 'Jewish State'?

This is nothing but baseless myth. Answer below:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story457.html

[Habil]

:sl:

It's highly dubious wether Hezbollah will attain any "victory" except not being totally erradicated by the israeli Army. That was the outcome of the past 34-day long war and it will be the outcome of a newly declared war. That the assasination of one of his leaders is the work of the Mossad I have no doubt about it.
Only the development of strong economies in the neighbouring muslim countries could stop the israelis from commiting attrocities like the one we have just witnessed. May Allah give his Ummah the revival it has been waiting for centuries.

:w:

[Moon*Light]

:sl:

Israelis will commit atrocities bro Habil whether there are good economies or not (though they should be good economies of course), have we all forgotten the nature of Zionists? And that "Israel" is the only occupying state that doesn't have a border? They live on war and expansion.

[Cognescenti]

This reminds me of another frequently asked question:
Why did seven well equipped Arab armies attempt to destroy the poorly armed and newly founded 'Jewish State'?

This is nothing but baseless myth. Answer below:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story457.html

So you admit then the argument is lost? We were talking about 1973. Nobody here said anything about 194x.

BTW...using a phrase like "filthy Zionists" pretty much demonstrates the collapse of your argument. I personally couldn't care less about Israel. If they want to keep living that is their job, not mine.

[MaiCarInMtl]

Regarding the war..

Hezbollah's strenght was: 600-1,000 easily trained soldiers and 3,000-10,000 voluntears.
Israel's strenght was: 10,000-30,000 highly trained soldiers.

Hezbollah lost 250 men (some voluntears some soldiers).
Israel lost 121 men (soldiers).

850-1200 Lebanese killed (civilians), 4410 injured.
44 Israelis killed ("civilians"), 1500 injured.

This is why I am so sad. Kill all the military people you want, target military installations, I don't care, it's all fair game in the game of war. My heart is heavy for the innocent civilians that die each and every day and their families that are left behind to pick up the pieces.

Dont worry this one happend in "Israel". Sooo beautiful and it wasent even a large rocket.

Destruction is never beautiful. Keep in mind that things were and still are much worse on the Lebanese side of the border. For every single building damaged in Israel, there are dozens more completely destroyed in Lebanon.

God help Lebanon, God help us all!

[krypton6]

:sl:

It's highly dubious wether Hezbollah will attain any "victory" except not being totally erradicated by the israeli Army. That was the outcome of the past 34-day long war and it will be the outcome of a newly declared war. That the assasination of one of his leaders is the work of the Mossad I have no doubt about it.
Only the development of strong economies in the neighbouring muslim countries could stop the israelis from commiting attrocities like the one we have just witnessed. May Allah give his Ummah the revival it has been waiting for centuries.

:w:

What the hell are you talking about!? They did attain victory! As weak as they may be they won greatly and through out the 34 day long war they proved that they could at any time keep up with the israeli army!

This is why I am so sad. Kill all the military people you want, target military installations, I don't care, it's all fair game in the game of war. My heart is heavy for the innocent civilians that die each and every day and their families that are left behind to pick up the pieces.

I agree, but in "Israel" there is no difference between a soldier and a civilian, they are all invaders, they have all stolen from muslims, and they all refuse to give back what they stole.

Hezbollah cannot chose who to kill inside of Israel. They have rockets and with a rocket its not up to you wether you kill a armed or unarmed man. But as I just said, in "Israel" there is no difference between a soldier and a "civilian", they are all invaders, they have all stolen from muslims, and they all refuse to give back what they stole.

Destruction is never beautiful. Keep in mind that things were and still are much worse on the Lebanese side of the border. For every single building damaged in Israel, there are dozens more completely destroyed in Lebanon.

God help Lebanon, God help us all!

Yes surely Lebanon was hit much harder than what Israel was, but it doesnt change the fact that seing a israeli building destroyed is beautiful.

You cant blaim Hezbollah for the deaths of the lebanese civilians, because "Israel" bombed just as much outside of the Hezbollah area than what they bombed inside. IDF believe that it is allright to destroy any neighborhood that is located inside of the southern Lebanon, but keep in mind that they bombed just as much in middle and north Lebanon than what they did in the south so they are even braking their own laws.

[Keltoi]

If Hezbollah achieved "victory" I would hate to see what a Hezbollah defeat looks like.

[MTAFFI]

You cant blaim Hezbollah for the deaths of the lebanese civilians, because "Israel" bombed just as much outside of the Hezbollah area than what they bombed inside. IDF believe that it is allright to destroy any neighborhood that is located inside of the southern Lebanon, but keep in mind that they bombed just as much in middle and north Lebanon than what they did in the south so they are even braking their own laws.

right but then in the paragraph before you say, "you cant control who a rocket kills"

you are a deluded, sad and sick human being.... I will pray for you

[MTAFFI]

of course they are freaked if they are closing up borders. israelis are stupid, blood thirsty criminals, they wont attack hizbullah they will attack innocent people.

first let me make sure it is known, I dont care for israel or if they exist or not... I have more important things to worry about...

My question for you is how do they know the difference between an innocent person or a hezbollah fighter? If they fight from civilian homes, on civilian ground, with no distinguishing features, who knows the difference? If hezbollah cared anything about the lebanese they would be true warriors and standout from the civilians and fight a true battle, rather than hiding amongst them putting them in harms way.

Peace

[MTAFFI]

Well MTAFFI, they are very freaked out, yesterday I watched a report about the movement on the Lebanese- "Israeli" border, zip not an Israeli in sight, all the soldiers are hiding lol!

Spat? Even the Israelis called it a war and many were killed, why do you think one of the reasons they opened an investigation on the war. Read up about Winograd report and you'll know how serious this is.

OK lets say they are freaked out, how do you think the Lebanese will react when Israel says they are going to launch another military campaign in their area... Last time they were evacuating, many couldnt escape and died, will that happen in Israel? Who is going to suffer more because of a conflict between Israel and Hezbollah? I will give you a hint, NOT ISRAEL, I hope that was good enough of a hint. You and others can be happy about this and laugh because the Israelis are going home, but to me this is just another waste of human life and nothing, absolutely nothing, is funny about it. Will hezbollah suffer casualities? Yes... Will Israel? Yes... Will either benefit anything from it other than getting the opportunity to launch some rockets and maybe knock off a couple enemies? No.

The 2006 war claimed the lives of 619 troops (hebollah[est. 500] and israeli [119]) and 1,235 civilians(Lebanese [1191] and israeli [44].. More civilians than troops... Who is the winner? What is the purpose? What is the grand prize?:-\

[krypton6]

right but then in the paragraph before you say, "you cant control who a rocket kills"

you are a deluded, sad and sick human being.... I will pray for you

With a fighter jet and a missile you can chose the exact location, that is impossible with a rocket launched from one country to another.

In the same way that you might see me as a deluded, sad and sick human being, I see you as deluded, sad and sick betrayer who is defending the same people who have robbed, tortured and killed muslims and yet refuse to give back what they stole or even apologize for what they have already done.

please.. dont pray for me, your the one who needs to be prayed for, but I'm not going to be the one wasting a prayer for you..

[krypton6]

The 2006 war claimed the lives of 619 troops (hebollah[est. 500] and israeli [119]) and 1,235 civilians(Lebanese [1191] and israeli [44].. More civilians than troops... Who is the winner? What is the purpose? What is the grand prize?:-\

ha..! When speaking about Hezbollah deaths you take the western estimation instead of the number granted to you by Hezbollah, but when speaking about the israeli deaths you take the number granted to you by the israelis themselves. you must be israeli eh..??

[MTAFFI]

With a fighter jet and a missile you can chose the exact location, that is impossible with a rocket launched from one country to another.

Really, when was the last time you were in a fighter jet launching missles to their exact location? You speak in ignorance, there is always a margin of error

In the same way that you might see me as a deluded, sad and sick human being, I see you as deluded, sad and sick betrayer who is defending the same people who have robbed, tortured and killed muslims and yet refuse to give back what they stole or even apologize for what they have already done.

I betray no one, I dont care for Israel or about Israel or what happens to them, as someone else said, it is not my job to insure its survival. The land that these people live on is their land now, most have been their since they were born, most of the original settlers are dead. The settlers who continue to establish outside their borders are wrong and should stop, but how is a peace deal to be reached when a groups says "We wont stop until you are either a) all dead or b) leave all the land? I am simply a realist, when will enough be enough for you?

Also, please point out where I defended Israel, calling me a betrayer is a pretty serious accusation and I would like to know the grounds on which you base it.. good luck with that

please.. dont pray for me, your the one who needs to be prayed for, but I'm not going to be the one wasting a prayer for you..

I dont ask for your prayers, although any is gladly accepted and appreciated... I will still pray for you brother.

[MTAFFI]

ha..! When speaking about Hezbollah deaths you take the western estimation instead of the number granted to you by Hezbollah, but when speaking about the israeli deaths you take the number granted to you by the israelis themselves. you must be israeli eh..??

I take the UN estimation of both, since Israel has a formal army and a head count for each soldier, yes I assume their estimation is correct... When Lebanese officials, UN officials and others on the ground conclude that between 500-600 fighters are dead, yeah I go with theirs because how would hezbollah know anyways?

also I find curious that you would rather dwell on my estimates rather than the real questions that were purposed in that post, you may find more answers in those questions than you will in the death counts

[snakelegs]

ha..! When speaking about Hezbollah deaths you take the western estimation instead of the number granted to you by Hezbollah, but when speaking about the israeli deaths you take the number granted to you by the israelis themselves. you must be israeli eh..??

there are no winners in the middle east. and it is not the israelis that suffer the most. how many palestinians are murdered by israel for each israeli? how many houses demolished or bombed for every damaged apartment building in israel?

[krypton6]

Really, when was the last time you were in a fighter jet launching missles to their exact location? You speak in ignorance, there is always a margin of error.

A basic understanding in warfare is what I have and from there I know that firing a missele from a fighter jet should be quite simple, I'm not saying that flying a jet is easy but only that firing a missile from it should be quite simple and easy, being that todays missiles are all extremly accurate. Even if the missil happends to be 50 years old and therefor isnt accurate, you are still chosing what neighborhood to bomb so it doesnt really matter. But with a rocket (the Hezbollah katyusha's) you cant even chose the neighborhood, you can only chose the city (be it a large city).

The land that these people live on is their land now, most have been their since they were born, most of the original settlers are dead. The settlers who continue to establish outside their borders are wrong and should stop, but how is a peace deal to be reached when a groups says "We wont stop until you are either a) all dead or b) leave all the land? I am simply a realist, when will enough be enough for you?

We want peace, we just dont want to achieve peace in the wrong way, and the wrong way would be to recognize "Israel" and accept and understand what they have done , the wrong way would be to surrender and live in peace with them after what they have done to us. Recognizing "Israel", accepting and understanding what they have done, surrendering and living in peace with them is all called betrayel, which is why I say you are a betrayer.
History cannot be changed, the way they treated the palesitnians and lebanese will not change, they have not even apologized for what they have done to the muslims, so how on earth can you live in peace with them? Instead they stealing palestinian homes every day and you want us to live in peace with them?

Where are the borders? Today the border is here, tomorrow its there, they keep taking, and you keep saying that taking new lands is wrong but what about the lands they are planing to take and that will be theirs tomorrow? Is that land also theirs? If it is then I give up on you, and if it isnt then why do you recognize the land they they took years ago as theirs?
Your saying that it is alright to fight for a land that the israelis stole recently but that what they stole years ago should not be fought for but instead forgotten, which is completely ridiculous and stupid of you to say!!!!

Also, please point out where I defended Israel, calling me a betrayer is a pretty serious accusation and I would like to know the grounds on which you base it.. good luck with that

I dont ask for your prayers, although any is gladly accepted and appreciated... I will still pray for you brother.

The fact that you want muslims to live in peace with the same people who have bulldozed thousands of muslims homes, killed thousands, tortured thousands, ruined the lives of millions, and stolen a whole muslim nation, makes you a betrayer.

[krypton6]

there are no winners in the middle east. and it is not the israelis that suffer the most. how many palestinians are murdered by israel for each israeli? how many houses demolished or bombed for every damaged apartment building in israel?

I'm aware of that, but your point is? "Israel" is in fact losing as time goes on and america is waking up!

[snakelegs]

I'm aware of that, but your point is? "Israel" is in fact losing as time goes on and america is waking up!

just that i think there are no winners in the middle east. just this endless killing that goes on and on and on.

[Whatsthepoint]

Israel is one of the most succesful countries in the world. The most successful, considering that it was formed 60 years ago in a desert lacking natural resources.

[snakelegs]

Israel is one of the most succesful countries in the world. The most successful, considering that it was formed 60 years ago in a desert lacking natural resources.

wonder what israel would look like if it hadn't received massive aid (largely from u.s.)?

[Cabdullahi]

I think palestiane and lebanon should strenghthen their militry defenses against the troubles that israel is causing.

this is a quote by malcom x

"I read once, passingly, about a man named Shakespeare. I only read about him passingly, but I remember one thing he wrote that kind of moved me. He put it in the mouth of Hamlet, I think, it was, who said, "To be or not to be." He was in doubt about something. Whether it was nobler in the mind of man to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, moderation, or to take up arms against a sea of troubles and by opposing end them. And I go for that. If you take up arms, you'll end it, but if you sit around and wait for the one who's in power to make up his mind that he should end it, you'll be waiting a long time. And in my opinion, the young generation of whites, blacks, browns, whatever else there is, you're living at a time of extremism, a time of revolution, a time when there's got to be a change. People in power have misused it and now there has to be a change and a better world has to be built and the only way it's going to be built is with extreme methods. And I, for one, will join in with anyone, I don't care what color you are, as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth"

[Whatsthepoint]

wonder what israel would look like if it hadn't received massive aid (largely from u.s.)?

Dunno. the point is that Israel didn't get the US aid just like that, the Jews and their lobbyists had to work hard to earn it and are working hard to sustain it.
Of course, there's a lot of "luck" to it, namely the Allies doing nothing about the holocaust and feeling bad afterwards and of course the evangelicals.

[Moon*Light]

OK lets say they are freaked out, how do you think the Lebanese will react when Israel says they are going to launch another military campaign in their area... Last time they were evacuating, many couldnt escape and died, will that happen in Israel? Who is going to suffer more because of a conflict between Israel and Hezbollah? I will give you a hint, NOT ISRAEL, I hope that was good enough of a hint.

Well from the looks of it, the amount of people who went to the funeral and the general atmosphere of the allies of Hizba’Allah they seem to be ready for such a war. You have to remember that “Israel” does something to the Lebanese everyday, about two weeks ago they killed two people near the border. It is an on going struggle and it is the nature of Israelis to make wars. We can’t back down and not defend ourselves, if we don’t nothing will be left.

And if I recall well, about a million Israelis lived in bunkers for 34 days and they suffered also.

What do you suggest the Lebanese should do?

I don’t agree on those numbers but it is a war of course people died. Each day people in Palestine die and I don’t see the world getting angry about that.

The grand prize is to get rid of that blood sucking entity killing our ummah. We die each day for nothing at least die for something, for future generations because mind you Israelis will never change.

[krypton6]

Dunno. the point is that Israel didn't get the US aid just like that, the Jews and their lobbyists had to work hard to earn it and are working hard to sustain it.
Of course, there's a lot of "luck" to it, namely the Allies doing nothing about the holocaust and feeling bad afterwards and of course the evangelicals.

They havent done anything! They have bin given and given all the time, the only thing that they are good at is stealing.

America had a opputunity to create a state inside of the enemy territory so they did! The israelis are given billion dollar aids to build up and run their country, they are not earning it!

[MTAFFI]

A basic understanding in warfare is what I have and from there I know that firing a missele from a fighter jet should be quite simple, I'm not saying that flying a jet is easy but only that firing a missile from it should be quite simple and easy, being that todays missiles are all extremly accurate. Even if the missil happends to be 50 years old and therefor isnt accurate, you are still chosing what neighborhood to bomb so it doesnt really matter. But with a rocket (the Hezbollah katyusha's) you cant even chose the neighborhood, you can only chose the city (be it a large city).

so to you launching a rocket not knowing if it will kill a newborn child is ok, because once you shoot the rocket you have no control, whereas it is not ok to launch a rocket into a building not knowing if there is a newborn child in it, but knowing that it will in fact hit that building..... You logic is flawed, neither is right

We want peace, we just dont want to achieve peace in the wrong way, and the wrong way would be to recognize "Israel" and accept and understand what they have done , the wrong way would be to surrender and live in peace with them after what they have done to us. Recognizing "Israel", accepting and understanding what they have done, surrendering and living in peace with them is all called betrayel, which is why I say you are a betrayer.
History cannot be changed, the way they treated the palesitnians and lebanese will not change, they have not even apologized for what they have done to the muslims, so how on earth can you live in peace with them? Instead they stealing palestinian homes every day and you want us to live in peace with them?

My point is this, the Ottoman empire surrendered all that land to the british after WWI, at which point that land became a british mandate, a spoil of war if you wish. The same land was later given to the Jewish as a home, since at this point this was up to the British to decide, and the Ottoman empire signed away this land, I see nothing wrong with it. Land is fought over and won all the time throughout history. It is the way of the world. SO to answer your question, I do not believe the original portion of land given to the Jews should be fought over, it already has been and the fight was won and lost between people, the winner decided to give it to Jews, is that the Jews fault? Now everything they have expanded since then should be given back to the Palestinians and/or the rightful owners. I condemn the Israeli settlements as they are a form of oppression and lack of respect for other human beings. With that said, Hamas launching their ineffective rockets into Israeli territory and Hezbollah attacking Israeli will not accomplish a peace deal to give this land back, it will only further encourage the Israelis to expand more and further erradicate the Palestinian people. Is that what you want? Because that is what is happening today in a very effective way, take a look at the maps.. I do not betray, I simply wish for peace, and that effort starts with the Palestinians, if they completely halted their attacks, and Israel continued to attempt to expand, all international support would no doubt come to a screaming halt and the Palestinians would be treated as refugees and victims rather than backwards terrorist who cannot accept peace.

Where are the borders? Today the border is here, tomorrow its there, they keep taking, and you keep saying that taking new lands is wrong but what about the lands they are planing to take and that will be theirs tomorrow? Is that land also theirs? If it is then I give up on you, and if it isnt then why do you recognize the land they they took years ago as theirs?
Your saying that it is alright to fight for a land that the israelis stole recently but that what they stole years ago should not be fought for but instead forgotten, which is completely ridiculous and stupid of you to say!!!!

I am saying that the original Israeli territory was won fair and square in war, everything since then has been an illegal, unjust theft of other peoples land.

The fact that you want muslims to live in peace with the same people who have bulldozed thousands of muslims homes, killed thousands, tortured thousands, ruined the lives of millions, and stolen a whole muslim nation, makes you a betrayer.

It dosent make me a betrayer at all, how do you expect Israelis to live in peace with the same people who blow themselves up in public places on their soil, or launch unguided rockets into civilian space, or fire erradically across into their country, or whatever other beliefs the Israelis may have about the Palestinians? It is said that al-dajjal will come and have one eye, see things from only one side, try and look at the big picture and stop allowing your heart and mind to be consumed with hate. Ultimately this is not the land that we wish to live in anyways, so who cares about the soil under your feet? Broker a peace deal and everyone will be happier, continued violence only allows for more hatred and more violence.. In other words the situation will only get worse, and if the trend continues on its current course, I am not sure the Israelis would be to unhappy with that.

[Whatsthepoint]

They havent done anything! They have bin given and given all the time, the only thing that they are good at is stealing.

America had a opputunity to create a state inside of the enemy territory so they did! The israelis are given billion dollar aids to build up and run their country, they are not earning it!

Israel receives $3 billion in US foreign aid anually compared to its $70 billion budget.

[Keltoi]

They havent done anything! They have bin given and given all the time, the only thing that they are good at is stealing.

America had a opputunity to create a state inside of the enemy territory so they did! The israelis are given billion dollar aids to build up and run their country, they are not earning it!

Harry Truman supported the creation of Israel, grudgingly, but he did not do it on the grounds of having a "state inside enemy territory". Those countries weren't considered "enemies" at that time, and most of them still aren't.

[snakelegs]

Dunno. the point is that Israel didn't get the US aid just like that, the Jews and their lobbyists had to work hard to earn it and are working hard to sustain it.
Of course, there's a lot of "luck" to it, namely the Allies doing nothing about the holocaust and feeling bad afterwards and of course the evangelicals.

i am not sure if a state that is dependent on foreign aid can be considered "successful".
in a way, i think israel has been a disaster for the jews as well as for the palestinians. :unhappy:

[Keltoi]

i am not sure if a state that is dependent on foreign aid can be considered "successful".
in a way, i think israel has been a disaster for the jews as well as for its neighbours. :unhappy:

Israel is far from dependant on anyone.

[snakelegs]

Israel is far from dependant on anyone.

this could be a misconception - something that was true, but is no longer. i don't have time to research it. maybe israel has become self-sufficent.
but could the country have gotten to that point without massive foreign aid?

[ahsan28]

We are getting too emotional over a political statement by a political leader :D

[Keltoi]

this could be a misconception - something that was true, but is no longer. i don't have time to research it. maybe israel has become self-sufficent.
but could the country have gotten to that point without massive foreign aid?

Would Israel be in the same state without past foreign aid? Probably not, but that doesn't equate to Israel failing as a state either. The U.S. was given large amounts of foreign aid after independence as well.

[MTAFFI]

Well from the looks of it, the amount of people who went to the funeral and the general atmosphere of the allies of Hizba’Allah they seem to be ready for such a war. You have to remember that “Israel” does something to the Lebanese everyday, about two weeks ago they killed two people near the border. It is an on going struggle and it is the nature of Israelis to make wars. We can’t back down and not defend ourselves, if we don’t nothing will be left.

I have no doubt that they are ready for combat, that is the foundation of their whole group. Would the Lebanese be attacked if someone wasnt launching rockets into Israeli territory?

And if I recall well, about a million Israelis lived in bunkers for 34 days and they suffered also.

What do you suggest the Lebanese should do?

now we are going in circles, I was merely stating that when an attack may be present or forthcoming, people dont wait in their homes and hope for the best.. My comment was merely a retort to your childish giggles towards the Israelis and being "freaked"... who isnt freaked, when a rocket could potentially blow up your house and kill you and your family?

I don’t agree on those numbers but it is a war of course people died. Each day people in Palestine die and I don’t see the world getting angry about that.

I dont get as much angry as I do sad, Israelis die as well, are their lives not worth as much? I am not saying that they are right in what they do, but the lose of any human life is just as saddening as another...

The grand prize is to get rid of that blood sucking entity killing our ummah. We die each day for nothing at least die for something, for future generations because mind you Israelis will never change.

I dont think Israel has the ability to kill the Ummah, the Ummah is dependent on those who represent it, do you think it is represented well today? Do you think that this is Allah's(swt) will? Do you think he wishes for you and others to carry this sort of hatred in your heart? Personally I dont, and I think that this hatred and all of this fighting and war is all someones plan, but not Allah's (swt)... You have your opinions and I have mine, but the fact is violence begets violence... This is the only tactic that has been practiced since the inception of Israel and it has only cost more lives and more land, I believe peace is the way forward, but my one belief alone is worth a grain of rice.

[MTAFFI]

Would Israel be in the same state without past foreign aid? Probably not, but that doesn't equate to Israel failing as a state either. The U.S. was given large amounts of foreign aid after independence as well.

could the Palestinians even exist today without humanitarian and foreign aid?

[Keltoi]

could the Palestinians even exist today without humanitarian and foreign aid?

Along those same lines, any Palestinian state will have to depend on foreign aid to survive. The Palestinian authorities depend on foreign aid now to pay the civil service employees and so on and so forth.

[AvarAllahNoor]

USA funds Isreal. Arms being the most common. - I was reading that a chap in Palestine says, if the issue of Isreal & Palestine isn't resolved soon, they should follow in the footsteps of Kosovo. and declare independence. Off topic sorry...

[Keltoi]

USA funds Isreal. Arms being the most common. - I was reading that a chap in Palestine says, if the issue of Isreal & Palestine isn't resolved soon, they should follow in the footsteps of Kosovo. and declare independence. Off topic sorry...

Actually, the Israelis can boast tanks and other forms of technology developed independently of American aid. In fact, it is the Americans looking to Israel to develop better forms of IED detection and bomb resistant armor for men and vehicles.

[Trumble]

I was reading that a chap in Palestine says, if the issue of Isreal & Palestine isn't resolved soon, they should follow in the footsteps of Kosovo. and declare independence. Off topic sorry...

Possibly, but interesting still the same. It sounds pretty dumb, though.. 'independence' from whom, exactly? If they declared 'independence' for Gaza and the West Bank as a new state of Palestine tomorrow they would only be doing what everybody except Israeli right-wingers (for one reason) and Hamas (for the oppposite reason) wants to happen anyway. If they declared a Palestinian state including what is now Israel they would just look ridiculous. They can't "follow in the footsteps of Kosovo", it's a totally different scenario. If you think about it Kosovo is actually a much closer parallel to the establishment of the State of Israel!

[Moon*Light]

I have no doubt that they are ready for combat, that is the foundation of their whole group. Would the Lebanese be attacked if someone wasnt launching rockets into Israeli territory?

Yes, the 2006 war was planned before and wasn’t a reaction to taking the two soldiers.

Ehud Olmert's decision to go to war in Lebanon in response to abductions of soldiers was taken as early as March 2006, according to a leak of his evidence to the commission investigating the war.

The report means that the military strategy was decided more than three months before it was triggered by Hizbollah's abductions of two soldiers on Israel's northern border in July. Israeli officials said this was broadly in line with what the Prime Minister has already told the cabinet.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ap-439474.html

now we are going in circles, I was merely stating that when an attack may be present or forthcoming, people dont wait in their homes and hope for the best.. My comment was merely a retort to your childish giggles towards the Israelis and being "freaked"... who isnt freaked, when a rocket could potentially blow up your house and kill you and your family?

I still giggle about it :D heck the big bad monster the Arabs and Muslims have been afraid of for decades that can't be defeated is gone. I’m happy about it. I think I have a right. What’s up with the personal attacks? You have your opinion and I have mine.

I’m a realistic person, I’m telling you that it is part of war to have loss of human life. We can’t run away from that.

You didn’t answer me about what the Lebanese should do?

I have no hatred in my heart, I’m telling you we need to defend ourselves and what did I get answer from you? I giggle childishly.

Second, I don’t think Arab leaders represent me, resistance whether muslim or Arab that attacks occupiers and invaders only do.

Allah SWT told us to fight back if we are attacked, it has been 60 years and we have been attacked, and there comes people like Hamas and Hizba’Allah to fulfill that.

“Israel” will never stop fighting us ever, look what Egypt and Jordan got out of peace, nothing. They help them with the blockade on Gaza and may other things.

[Gator]

...look what Egypt and Jordan got out of peace, nothing.

Except, uh, peace.........and the sinai for Egypt and water + 300 square kilometers of land for Jordan.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Possibly, but interesting still the same. It sounds pretty dumb, though.. 'independence' from whom, exactly? If they declared 'independence' for Gaza and the West Bank as a new state of Palestine tomorrow they would only be doing what everybody except Israeli right-wingers (for one reason) and Hamas (for the oppposite reason) wants to happen anyway. If they declared a Palestinian state including what is now Israel they would just look ridiculous. They can't "follow in the footsteps of Kosovo", it's a totally different scenario. If you think about it Kosovo is actually a much closer parallel to the establishment of the State of Israel!

It's all possible. If Isreal can make it's own borders by taking bits of other lands, then Palestinians CAN do the same.

His point was more to do with the backing of the USA in Kososovo. Will they back them, or will they go against Isreal, whom they serve.

[snakelegs]

Along those same lines, any Palestinian state will have to depend on foreign aid to survive. The Palestinian authorities depend on foreign aid now to pay the civil service employees and so on and so forth.

i think palestine will be dependent on foreign aid indefinitely. much of its agriculture and industry have been destroyed by the israelis.

Actually, the Israelis can boast tanks and other forms of technology developed independently of American aid. In fact, it is the Americans looking to Israel to develop better forms of IED detection and bomb resistant armor for men and vehicles.

true, but a portion of u.s. military aid to israel was (is?) allowed to be spent in israel - providing israel funding to develop its own weapons systems.

[guyabano]

You have your opinion and I have mine.

I’m a realistic person,

oh well, you say it right, you have your opinion and other have theirs.

You are a realistic person (in YOUR eyes) and others are realistic too (in THEIR eyes)

so, everybody is realistic and none is realistic because everybody accuse the other not to be realistic !

So what is the final point ? Don't accuse others or get insulting if others have a different opinion than yours !

Peace

[ahsan28]

Those who favour declaration of war by Hezbollah, what kind of military achievements do they expect against Israel in existing scenerio, while taking into account the possibility of massive degradation of remaining parts of Lebanon by Israel?

[ahsan28]

The statement from Nasrallah after war against Israel:-


"You ask me, if I had known on July 11 … that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not," Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said in an interview with Lebanon's New TV station broadcast Sunday.

"We did not think, even one per cent, that the capture would lead to a war at this time and of this magnitude," Nasrallah said.


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/nation...abduction.html

[SirZubair]

Yay! More death and destruction!

Hoorah for hezbollah..

[AvarAllahNoor]

Israel faces 'certain death': Iran leader adviser

TEHRAN (AFP) — The assassination of a top commander of the Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah has hastened the "certain death" of Israel, the top military adviser to Iran's supreme leader said on Thursday.

General Yahya Rahim Safavi, in the latest of a spate of anti-Israel verbal attacks by Iran, said the murder of Imad Mughnieh in a Damascus car bombing last week had enraged thousands of young members of Hezbollah.

"With this anger, the certain death of the Zionist regime had been brought forward," he said, according to the state-run IRNA news agency.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Hezbollah`s Genocidal Threat


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The leader of Hezbollah Sheik Hassan Nasrallah has now called for revenge against Israelis and Jews around the world, for the assassination of Imad Moughniyah, which he claims was done by Israel. It does not matter, of course, who actually pulled off the assassination. Israel and the Jews would be blamed by Hezbollah even if Syria had been responsible.

Blame Israel and the Jews for everything is what Hezbollah always does. In the past, Hezbollah has taken revenge against what it claimed to be Israeli actions by murdering Jewish schoolchildren in Argentina. Once again it is threatening to attack innocent Jews around the world.

Yet some in the media describe this as a cycle of violence, thus suggesting moral equivalence between the targeting of a terrorist combatant responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians, and the random murder of innocent men, women and children who had absolutely nothing to do with the targeted killing of Imad Moughniyah, but just happen to be Jewish.

Sheik Hassan Nasrallah's call for the killing of Jews around the world is nothing short of an incitement to genocide, or at least to mass murder. There is no moral equivalent between military action that targeted a terrorist combatant and the targeting of innocent civilians around the world, based on their religion.

[ahsan28]

Israel faces 'certain death': Iran leader adviser

TEHRAN (AFP) — The assassination of a top commander of the Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah has hastened the "certain death" of Israel, the top military adviser to Iran's supreme leader said on Thursday.

The question remains why didn't Iran and Syria intervene militarily at a time, when Israel was bringing massive destruction on Southern Lebanon?

What should we conclude then? A political statement coming from Iran, lacking matching application on ground or preparing for yet another proxy war :X

[MTAFFI]

Yes, the 2006 war was planned before and wasn’t a reaction to taking the two soldiers.

So are you saying that they staged this or something, or that they were laying out a strategy for any such scenario that they would have to attack Hezbollah? Also keep in mind that the kidnapping of these two soldiers wasnt the only confrontation at that time Israel was having with them across the broder and inside their own. The fact that an assault was pre planned means nothing more than the Israelis were making their own preparations.

I still giggle about it :D heck the big bad monster the Arabs and Muslims have been afraid of for decades that can't be defeated is gone. I’m happy about it. I think I have a right. What’s up with the personal attacks? You have your opinion and I have mine.

Who has been defeated and is gone? Unless something happened last night when I was sleeping, the last thing I heard was Israel still existed and they still have their land and continue to expand everyday. What are you giggling about, the utter lack of progress made in the region? The senseless loss of life on both sides, or even just on one? The continued expansion of the zionist regime? The absolute overpowering of Israel against it foes? The lack of internation support for Hezbollah and Hamas because of their aggressive and fruitless attacks against their neighbors? The people who suffer because of their pride? What is there to giggle about?

I’m a realistic person, I’m telling you that it is part of war to have loss of human life. We can’t run away from that.

You dont have to be realistic to know war will always cost lives.

You didn’t answer me about what the Lebanese should do?

I figured you could pick up from my response what that I dont expect the Lebanese to do anything but what they did do... leave and come back when it is over. My response was, again, simply a response to your earlier childish giggling with regard to people leaving or hiding when there is a supposed upcoming attack.

I have no hatred in my heart, I’m telling you we need to defend ourselves and what did I get answer from you? I giggle childishly.

Your words on here would indicate otherwise..

Who are you defending yourself from? The same people who are defending themselves from you? Who is really defending? I guess it is really a matter of perception as it always has been in this case

Second, I don’t think Arab leaders represent me, resistance whether muslim or Arab that attacks occupiers and invaders only do.

Good for you

Allah SWT told us to fight back if we are attacked, it has been 60 years and we have been attacked, and there comes people like Hamas and Hizba’Allah to fulfill that.

The Ottomans did fight back, and they lost remember? THe land was lost, remember? This is 60 years later, the land is no longer Palestine, it was a British Mandate and then it was Israel, and until the next Joe Shmo comes along and conquers that land it will be Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah will never have the capacity to attack and reclaim that land, it is an unrealistic goal and only causes the deaths of more and more muslims, and costs more and more land, and advocates oppression.

“Israel” will never stop fighting us ever, look what Egypt and Jordan got out of peace, nothing. They help them with the blockade on Gaza and may other things.

Really? I dont see them fighting Egypt or Jordan today.. They actually live in peace with each other. Egypt and Jordan got plenty out of their deals as someone else mentioned above..

As I said violence begets violence, you are welcome to support who you wish, but the sort of thinking that you display only reflects why the situation is what it is today.

[Moon*Light]

Except, uh, peace.........and the sinai for Egypt and water + 300 square kilometers of land for Jordan.

Lol that belong to them man, come on.

oh well, you say it right, you have your opinion and other have theirs.

You are a realistic person (in YOUR eyes) and others are realistic too (in THEIR eyes)

so, everybody is realistic and none is realistic because everybody accuse the other not to be realistic !

So what is the final point ? Don't accuse others or get insulting if others have a different opinion than yours !

You can’t remove a sentence out of its context and just comment on it. I said that about war and not in general.

ahsan28 I posted before the link were it shows “Israel” planned the war before hand. Also don’t take words out of context.

Iran and Syria help Hizba’Allah in different ways. Apparently the Hizb didn’t need them it won over “Israel” by itself :)

So are you saying that they staged this or something, or that they were laying out a strategy for any such scenario that they would have to attack Hezbollah? Also keep in mind that the kidnapping of these two soldiers wasnt the only confrontation at that time Israel was having with them across the broder and inside their own. The fact that an assault was pre planned means nothing more than the Israelis were making their own preparations.

I’m not the one saying they are. What other confrontations? No, they were planning a full scale war before anything happened that they were going to do whether the soldiers where took or not. Also Bolton spoke out that the war was preplanned and they aimed to get rid of Hizba’Allah regardless of the soldiers.

Who has been defeated and is gone?

“Israel” said it failed and was defeated, remember. What was gone is the monster image. Progress? Man, US stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan, “Israel” out of Gaza, losing a war and unable to expand except in the Palestine area you don’t see they as progress?

Why are you so peeved by my giggling? Hmmm? I see my enemy lost. You have to be realistic to stop this useless argument about oh look at the death happening, well of course there is death. There has been death for 60 years now.

The Lebanese left? Who in the world do you think fought the Israelis? Their families left and the resistance stayed to fight back.

What hate, telling you I should not give in to my enemy? Isn’t that part of out religion or have you forgotten?

“Israel” was established on the land and houses of the Palestinians and many others. Yes we are the ones defending.

Well we will see now how long “Israel” will keep up, besides as you said the land was invaded before like for example the Crusaders and they did go no?

You mean the governments persecuting their people in Jordan and Egypt sure these governments live in peace *rolls eyes*

[Gator]

Well, it didn't prior to the peace treaty and then after peace treaty it did.

And since, as I've mentioned, they have had peace.

[Moon*Light]

The land was theirs and it was occupied. Besides in 1973 war, the way it was going for Egypt there was no need to make peace to get the land back.

[ahsan28]

ahsan28 I posted before the link were it shows “Israel” planned the war before hand. Also don’t take words out of context.

Iran and Syria help Hizba’Allah in different ways. Apparently the Hizb didn’t need them it won over “Israel” by itself :)

If destruction of half a country within 34 days is called as victory, then I also agree with this stance. Winners don't regret after the wars.

[Gator]

The land was theirs and it was occupied. Besides in 1973 war, the way it was going for Egypt there was no need to make peace to get the land back.

Yes, now I remember. The Arab armies advanced taking most of Israel including Haifa & Jerusalem and decimating the Israeli army & air force.

But, they just decided to give all the land back and let Israel occupy the Sinai and the Golan Heights. That was really nice of them.

[MTAFFI]

I’m not the one saying they are. What other confrontations? No, they were planning a full scale war before anything happened that they were going to do whether the soldiers where took or not. Also Bolton spoke out that the war was preplanned and they aimed to get rid of Hizba’Allah regardless of the soldiers.

What other confrontations? Are you serious? Israel has been engaged in hostilities with different cross border groups in Lebanon for 40 + years, whether it be Hezbollah, the PLO or whoever, there has always been some sort of adversary there. As far as wanting to get rid of Hezbollah, what are you expecting? Hezbollah calls for their destruction more often than Iran, do you think that they should be able to do that and fire rockets on another countries soil without some sort of plan of attack from the other side?

I am not siding with Israel either, I am just trying to see thinks from their point of view..

“Israel” said it failed and was defeated, remember. What was gone is the monster image. Progress? Man, US stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan, “Israel” out of Gaza, losing a war and unable to expand except in the Palestine area you don’t see they as progress?

US isnt really stuck anywhere, should a new president come into power and be a democrat, I have a feeling the US will be out of Iraq rather abruptly.. I will look forward to your response to that move when it happens.

Do you think Israel couldnt take Gaza by force if they wanted to? What is progress to you, having Israel not be able to get two POW's back but absolutely abolish the city they are in? That is progress? Iraq and Afghanistan are in shambles, that is your idea of progress? With that sort of progress the whole M.E. will be a third world country in the next 30 years or so, (take note that Europe and the US and virtually the same or better as they have been for the past 60 + yrs).. Yes great progress there, keep it up it that is your goal.. The game is chess not checkers

Why are you so peeved by my giggling? Hmmm? I see my enemy lost. You have to be realistic to stop this useless argument about oh look at the death happening, well of course there is death. There has been death for 60 years now.

I am not peeved about it, it is more saddening than anything that a fellow Muslim can giggle at any loss of life, no matter how long it has gone on, when will enough be enough? (i already know the answer "when israel ceases to exist")

The Lebanese left? Who in the world do you think fought the Israelis? Their families left and the resistance stayed to fight back.

There families all left, yet there were twice as many civilian casualties... hmmm ^o) what isnt right about that?

What hate, telling you I should not give in to my enemy? Isn’t that part of out religion or have you forgotten?

What is giving in? I think you may take some things out of context if you truly believe that fighting like this and the way the fighting is being gone about is part of our religion... But that is just my opinion.. Peace should always be the first priority

“Israel” was established on the land and houses of the Palestinians and many others. Yes we are the ones defending.

Yes it was, back when it was a British Mandate, and the land was given to the british by the Ottomans to do what they wish.. It is always amusing to me how people can claim to be a realist but yet will continue to side step or ignore this fact. I will put this simple to you, the land was lost in war, it was no longer the Palestinians, if you wish to call them that at the time. It was given to the Jewish as a homeland.. Not to mention nobody kicked the Arabs out, they left on their own free will because of the forthcoming attack from the neighboring countries and because they were angry about not having equal political influence on the land, they Arabs lost again, this time to Israel. Thus initiating this whole stupid conflict. Please take note to this paragraph, go ahead and respond to it entirely I am interested to get someones views on how this is Palestinian land given this particular part history on it.

Well we will see now how long “Israel” will keep up, besides as you said the land was invaded before like for example the Crusaders and they did go no?

I am not sure who Israel is keeping up with, I think their enemies wish to keep up with them. An interesting point with the land being invaded and conquered before. If hamas or hezbollah had any brains they would declare a ceasefire and allow for peace, then once they build their economies, infrastructure and military along with international support, who knows maybe they can declare war and take it back, or perhaps they can invade diplomatically and retake the area by flooding the population with Arab people, thus ultimately resulting in an Arab dominated government..

No no no, i am sorry probably will work better to just keep launching those extremely effective mortar attacks, yes that is the way, progress right?

You mean the governments persecuting their people in Jordan and Egypt sure these governments live in peace *rolls eyes*

how are they being persecuted? Like those persecuted in Iran for publishing negatively about the government? Or those in Saudi Arabia? It seems persecution, violence, and government corruption is a bigger problem in the Middle East than anywhere else doesnt it? Dont blame it on the US either, it isnt like the people there have any problem overthrowing leaders when they want to.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Pro Rebublicans in the USA are very limted. The media is focused on Democrats, Clinton & Obama. The majority will vote for Democrats. Americans are fed-up of what Bushy Wushy had done! - Obama isn't Anti-Isreal, But he's not Pro-Isreal either. That would work wonders I think!

[Cognescenti]

Pro Rebublicans in the USA are very limted. The media is focused on Democrats, Clinton & Obama. The majority will vote for Democrats. Americans are fed-up of what Bushy Wushy had done! - Obama isn't Anti-Isreal, But he's not Pro-Isreal either. That would work wonders I think!

I am afraid it is a bit more complicated than that. Most American Jews vote Democratic. Then there is the Congress. Support for Israel in Congress crosses party lines. I would also be interested in seeing you cite specific examples of pro-Israeli actions by the Bush administration. I can think of a few myself but it hardly seems at odds with prior administrations. The stated policy of the US government is for a two state solution in Palestine with a viable, contiguous Palestinian state. That has been the policy of the US at least going back to Oslo.

As for Obama, I have never heard him utter one word vis a vis Israel. In fact, Israel is almost never mentioned in US Presidential elections. A great majority of Americans couldn't really care less about Israel and very few would use a candidate's stance on Israel to decide their vote.

[AvarAllahNoor]

^^ True. - Bush has an agenda, he's not condemned Israel when the Gaza cut off a month ago. Suspiciously this occured AFTER his visit to Isreal! - I despise dubya, as much as I do Hitler.

The American people are now looking forward to something new. Obama in ALL interviews states the first thing to do is bring back troops and work on stabilty in Iraq/Afghanistan. Dubya has left a lot of mess in his reign as 'President'

Plus Obamas lead recently speaks volumes!

[Keltoi]

^^ True. - Bush has an agenda, he's not condemned Israel when the Gaza cut off a month ago. Suspiciously this occured AFTER his visit to Isreal! - I despise dubya, as much as I do Hitler.

The American people are now looking forward to something new. Obama in ALL interviews states the first thing to do is bring back troops and work on stabilty in Iraq/Afghanistan. Dubya has left a lot of mess in his reign as 'President'

Plus Obamas lead recently speaks volumes!

You do know the difference between a primary and a general election right? A primary is Democrats voting for Democrats. Or Republicans voting for Republicans. Obama isn't actually in the lead anyway, Clinton has more primary delegates than he does, and if she wins Texas and Ohio she gets the nomination.

[AvarAllahNoor]

You do know the difference between a primary and a general election right? A primary is Democrats voting for Democrats. Or Republicans voting for Republicans. Obama isn't actually in the lead anyway, Clinton has more primary delegates than he does, and if she wins Texas and Ohio she gets the nomination.

Either one is better than any republican was my point! - War mongers. :mad::mad:

[AvarAllahNoor]

Don't you 'Christians' idolise dubya? It was in a documentary, they percieve him to be some 'Messiah' Evangelicals I think. Is that your perception of 'it' Ketoi?

[Whatsthepoint]

Either one is better than any republican was my point! - War mongers. :mad::mad:

Ron apul, who seems to be quite a chap around here, is a anti-war republican.

[Whatsthepoint]

Don't you 'Christians' idolise dubya? It was in a documentary, they percieve him to be some 'Messiah' Evangelicals I think. Is that your perception of 'it' Ketoi?

Jesus Camp, right?
Not all evangelicals are pro Dubya, although I think the majority are. My uncle is an evangelicalm republican and he dislikes Bush very much.

[Cabdullahi]

Listen who can trust a politician these days !forget hillary forget obama forget all of them.they all seem to be stating that they will improve this and improve that so nobody knows if they will follow up with an act only time will tell

[Keltoi]

Don't you 'Christians' idolise dubya? It was in a documentary, they percieve him to be some 'Messiah' Evangelicals I think. Is that your perception of 'it' Ketoi?

No, Evangelicals don't percieve Bush to be a "Messiah"...that is a little absurd. Bush does have alot of support amongst Christians, primarily because of his anti-abortion stance and his nomination of conservative judges.

[MTAFFI]

You do know the difference between a primary and a general election right? A primary is Democrats voting for Democrats. Or Republicans voting for Republicans. Obama isn't actually in the lead anyway, Clinton has more primary delegates than he does, and if she wins Texas and Ohio she gets the nomination.

actually Obama is leading in the delegates right now, Clinton has more superdelegates because of NY & CA but she is behind by 92 delegates overall

She has to win by a landslide in both TX and OH or her campaign may be over, I think right now she actually has the lead by a small margin but definitely not enough to lock the nomination..

Many democrats who previously backed Clinton now back Obama as well, and her pledged superdelegates are just that, "pledged", they are not yet concrete, and many believe that many of her super delegates because her electability is not as great as Obamas for the democrat party.

DELEGATE COUNT
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ate_count.html
POPULAR VOTE
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ote_count.html
NATIONAL POLLS
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...ation-191.html

[AvarAllahNoor]

Jesus Camp, right?
Not all evangelicals are pro Dubya, although I think the majority are. My uncle is an evangelicalm republican and he dislikes Bush very much.

Yes, and some other one. I lost interest after a bit, when they declared they were Gods chosen and would rule the world?

Well it's good to know some Christians can think. (No Offence) :coolious:

[AvarAllahNoor]

No, Evangelicals don't percieve Bush to be a "Messiah"...that is a little absurd. Bush does have alot of support amongst Christians, primarily because of his anti-abortion stance and his nomination of conservative judges.

Thanks :smile:

[Kidman]

I'm voting for Nader, he is pro-hezbollah!!! check out youtube!

[Cognescenti]

I'm voting for Nader, he is pro-hezbollah!!! check out youtube!

Ralph Nader?? It hardly seems he has a chance.

Still, he might make a late run. :smile:

I have seen that Youtube video. He looks like he is on psychoactive medication or is taking signals from Jupiter and translating them into English.

That is some serious, single-issue voting you are talking about. The problem is, how would an outsider know you like his pro-Hezbollah stance or are just mad at General Motors for making the Chevy Corvair.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

[Moon*Light]

[quote= ahsan28]If destruction of half a country within 34 days is called as victory, then I also agree with this stance. Winners don't regret after the wars.[quote]

I answered you about that don’t take things out of context that was hypothetical question that came after explaining how the war was preplanned and the question is not a real situation but to show his views that he cares about people.

Also "Israel" had destruction which they didn't allow to show.

All wars have destruction. Instead of blaming Israelis for those inhume and immoral acts you attack Hizba'Allah. Wow.

Yes, now I remember. The Arab armies advanced taking most of Israel including Haifa & Jerusalem and decimating the Israeli army & air force.

Sadat was not very bright.


MTAFFI,

Do you think “Israel” is an invasion and occupation or not? Because I seem to be repeating myself and the message is not getting across. Again, Zionists attacked us, Lebanese have been dying since 1948 before the PLO and before Hizba’Allah.

All these groups came as a result of Israeli attacks, Hizba’Allah was created after the invasion of Lebanon in 1982.

They still fight because the Israelis keep attacking and occupying Lebanese lands. They have illegal air flights almost every day, they steal their water. What do you call that?

So the US is not having problems in Iraq, then why do they need to leave?

They could take Gaza but they will make another intifada maybe or lose more soldiers than they want. They can’t seem to stop a few little rockets from there.

Is it our fault that they are in shambles! Ask the US and Russia what they have done to these countries and those Arab leaders who kept on supporting Saddam because he killed Iranians, until he had no use.

You seem to change the point every time you don’t have sn answer, I’m talking about the progress against occupation.

I’m giggling about death? Pfft that is what you understood? Good Lord. I was talking about Israelis failing in their goal to invade Lebanon, in their fear of Hizaba’Allah and I think you know that very well. Stop changing my views.

There families all left, yet there were twice as many civilian casualties... hmmm what isnt right about that?

They hit southern suburbs more than a 100 buildings were completely destroyed. The others who were not in the frontal villages where the fight was but they were still hit. Buses carrying civilians were hit while fleeing that’s why there were so many victims.

Peace with whom? The one that kills you?

They didn’t get them anything they took it on their own and I know my history more than you do. They can’t do whatever they want with it. They have no right to displace and take the homes and lands of others. Period.

Haha, you read Zionist views about history which are false, ever heard of Der Yeseen massacre?You know if that was the case then after all these years no Palestinians should have stayed after all these deaths.

Well that is working right no Israelis are afraid of the large numbers of births of Palestinians.

If they speak that they don’t agree with this peace process they are put in prison never to be heard of, that is freedom for you from the US and Israeli backup gov. in those two countries. That is one thing.

I told you before I don’t support them. But isn’t the SA gov. the best friend of the US?

[Moon*Light]

Israel to vanish, says Hezbollah

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah has told thousands of supporters at a rally in Lebanon that the disappearance of Israel is inevitable.
"The presence of Israel is but temporary and cannot go on in the region," he told the Beirut rally.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7259657.stm

[ahsan28]

How?

The fact remains that they helped zionists create a security zone to protect Israelis from crude rockets which were supplied to them by their well wishers and accepted peace deal after 34 days. If they are capable to eliminate zionists, what stopped them from continuing the war in 2006?

Statements don't become facts, unless proven on ground.

Those who regard Hezbollah as winners despite leading to half of the country to utter destruction haven't given even one conclusive proof of their military achievements so far.

Military analysis are not based on emotional statements.

[Kidman]

He said their disappearance in inevitable, meaning they will disappear.. they didn't say that they will be the cause of this. Also they stopped the war from continuing because the Cowards were busy killing innocent civilians instead of fighting the Hezbollah troops on the ground.

Kidman

[ahsan28]

Civilian casualties might have been one of the reasons necessitating acceptance of cease-fire by Hezbollah but not the prime consideration, which was certainly the substantial degradation of Hezbollah fighting capability in terms of men and material losses, despite the fact that they exhibited endurance and performed more than the expectations of the Zionists. Apart from this, Hezbollah’s initial successes were also due to the cautious approach adopted by IDF, incorrect assessment about Hezbollah’s fighting potential and delay in launching full scale offensive. We can claim that IDF wasn’t prepared to face such resistance and took Hezbollah lightly. However, the Israel’s main objective was to secure the area upto Litani River to keep Israel out of the range of hostile rockets, followed by deployment of UN peacekeeping mission for curtailing Hezbollah freedom of action in Southern Lebanon and limiting Iran’s ability to use Lebanon’s territory against Israel in which they did succeed.

Although, Hezbollah was successful in attaining political and moral ascendancy over Israel, which is beyond doubt but militarily they didn’t achieve anything. So therefore, I don’t see any logic in declaration of war by Hezbollah except a political statement without any substance, but if they resort to any misadventure, its more likely that Israel will not repeat its blunders.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Either they have peace, or a full blown war! - People can't live or set up homes so they can continue living a life. It's short enough as it is, without having to have this going on in their front garden! :(

[Cognescenti]

Civilian casualties might have been one of the reasons necessitating acceptance of cease-fire by Hezbollah but not the prime consideration, which was certainly the substantial degradation of Hezbollah fighting capability in terms of men and material losses, despite the fact that they exhibited endurance and performed more than the expectations of the Zionists. Apart from this, Hezbollah’s initial successes were also due to the cautious approach adopted by IDF, incorrect assessment about Hezbollah’s fighting potential and delay in launching full scale offensive. We can claim that IDF wasn’t prepared to face such resistance and took Hezbollah lightly. However, the Israel’s main objective was to secure the area upto Litani River to keep Israel out of the range of hostile rockets, followed by deployment of UN peacekeeping mission for curtailing Hezbollah freedom of action in Southern Lebanon and limiting Iran’s ability to use Lebanon’s territory against Israel in which they did succeed.

Although, Hezbollah was successful in attaining political and moral ascendancy over Israel, which is beyond doubt but militarily they didn’t achieve anything. So therefore, I don’t see any logic in declaration of war by Hezbollah except a political statement without any substance, but if they resort to any misadventure, its more likely that Israel will not repeat its blunders.

I would have to agree with most of your analysis. Hezbollah won the PR battle...because of the destruction of civilian areas...and they achieved some initial success because of their fortified positions, but ultimately, when Israeli will and logistical support stiffened..Hebollah had to give up the battlefield (and had a fair number of "martyrs", I imagine), which is the classical definition of military defeat.

I absolutely dispute your claim of moral ascendency. Hezbollah started the war by seizing Israeli soldiers and the thousands of rockets rained indescriminately onto Israeli territory can hardly be claimed a "moral" victory.

[ahsan28]

I used moral ascendency in the context of significant civilian casualties and destruction of civilian infrastructure by Israel, otherwise we all know that Hezbollah was the one to provide Israel the oppertunity to invade and accepted ceasefire after 34 days as a face saving, since they were in no position to sustain IDF momentum of advance, except firing crude rockets into Israel's territories to show to the world that they were resisting successfully whereas in actual they had given up the area upto Litani River.

In such situation during a conventional war, the defender either launches riposte or resorts to counter-offensive through release of uncommitted reserves. Hezbollah had no such capability :embarrass

So therefore to consider that Hezbollah won the war militarily is seriously flawed :embarrass

[Moon*Light]

^ Do tell did were the aims of the war reached?

No, so Israelis failed and Hizba'Allah stopped the aims so they won.

How?

The fact remains that they helped zionists create a security zone to protect Israelis from crude rockets which were supplied to them by their well wishers and accepted peace deal after 34 days. If they are capable to eliminate zionists, what stopped them from continuing the war in 2006?

Statements don't become facts, unless proven on ground.

Those who regard Hezbollah as winners despite leading to half of the country to utter destruction haven't given even one conclusive proof of their military achievements so far.

Military analysis are not based on emotional statements.

What security zone? That thing ended when the Israelis ran away in 2000. Everyone can go to the south now, Hizba’Allah are still there, their flags are right on the fence. There is only Kafarshuba hills and Shebaa Farms still occupied after the 2000 withdrawal.

Resolution 1701 is not a peace deal far from it. It just says to have a seize fire, though till now it has not happened.

Because the Israelis couldn’t handle it anymore and wanted to stop the war. Second, new issues have shown they wanted a mass evacuation that happened and for the people to stay out. The resistance wanted the people to return as fast as possible to their homes and it happened right after the military actions were stopped. Third, “Israel” is broken down bit by bit, in this war they stopped their aims.

The more “Israel” tries to invade Lebanon the more its army will be broken down. The Hizb learned from Arabs past mistakes where they make full scale wars and have no way of getting past the military of the Israelis.

I keep telling myself that you and others seem to be forgetting who admitted they lost. The Israelis admitted they lost a war, first time ever!

Read the Israeli Winograd report there is no emotion there and they said they failed and lost. Period.

[Keltoi]

Israel admitted they didn't achieve all of their objectives...but that doesn't equate to a "loss" either. Israel actually had concrete goals they wished to achieve, mainly the destruction of Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon. They wiped much of it off the map, but they didn't achieve all of their goals in that endeavor.

[cala_lily]

OMG too funny, may he rest in pieces *LOL*

[ahsan28]

No, so Israelis failed and Hizba'Allah stopped the aims so they won.

Then why did they accept cease-fire, if they were in such a commanding position during culminating stages of the conflict :embarrass

[ahsan28]

Israel admitted they didn't achieve all of their objectives...but that doesn't equate to a "loss" either. Israel actually had concrete goals they wished to achieve, mainly the destruction of Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon. They wiped much of it off the map, but they didn't achieve all of their goals in that endeavor.

I agree. The major blunder committed by Israel was the limited resources allocated for the ground offensive. Troops were sent into battle without sufficient food, water and basic supplies which had significant impact during initial days. However those weaknesses as shown in their report have nothing to do with the final outcome of the conflict which is related to losing of a sizeable territory by Hezbollah. They were in no position to repond or retaliate further except firing crude rockets (supplied by Iran and Syria) into Israel's territory.

[Moon*Light]

Bro ahsan I explained why. "Israel" needs to be broken over intervals. Look what happened in previous wars with the Arabs. The Strategy Hizaba’Allah and Hamas have taken is guerilla warfare to tire the large Israeli army and to hit its strength like the Merkava tank.

I also talked about the importance of returning the people back to the south.

Don't worry knowing "Israel" they will come back again, you will get to see them defeated once more. :)

-------

Keltoi,

They said they failed, stop playing on words, failed, lost, defeated, didn’t achieve goals...basically they all lead to the same thing.

If you make a little search you would find these but I'm tired of repeating myself.

This is after the war in 2006.

Israeli analysts across the political spectrum branded the war against Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon ``an embarrassing defeat" for a ``semi-rookie government" that should have known the goals it set for itself were ``impossible to achieve."

http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ategic_defeat/

[Moon*Light]

What territory was lost ahsan? You still haven't explained about the security fence. Where do you get this stuff?

[ahsan28]

By security zone I meant creation of an area for subsequent deployment of UN peacekeepers, so as to keep Hezbollah's crude rockets out of range of Northern Israel. Another implication could have been the utilisation of security zone as jump-off point for sebsequent phases of the war after necessary build up of logistics. Had the war not ended after 34 days, we would have found 1-2 freshly inducted IDF divisions either deployed along the communication lines to seize Hezbollah activities/movements or awaiting further orders from zionist high command to continue operations ahead of Litani River.

The crude rockets fired by Hezbollah from within by-passed pockets of resistance would not have been of any tactical significance, except creating unrest amongst Israelis living in Northern areas and that too would have stopped with the mopping up phase launched by the follow up IDF formation.

So therefore it was blessing in disguise for Hezbollah that the conflict ended after 34 days and one should never pray that Israel attacks again on Lebanon, unless Hezbollah is desirous for further destruction of their country.

IDF concentrations in the general area along Litani River before ceasefire amounts to losing the territory by Hezbollah, the precise reason as to why Nasrallah didn't blink his eyes in accepting ceasefire. Had he been in any viable position to continue the fight, he wouldn't have accepted the deal after such unprecedented destruction of Southern Lebanon by IDF :embarrass

[MTAFFI]

Bro ahsan I explained why. "Israel" needs to be broken over intervals. Look what happened in previous wars with the Arabs. The Strategy Hizaba’Allah and Hamas have taken is guerilla warfare to tire the large Israeli army and to hit its strength like the Merkava tank.

I also talked about the importance of returning the people back to the south.

Don't worry knowing "Israel" they will come back again, you will get to see them defeated once more. :)

-------

Keltoi,

They said they failed, stop playing on words, failed, lost, defeated, didn’t achieve goals...basically they all lead to the same thing.

If you make a little search you would find these but I'm tired of repeating myself.

This is after the war in 2006.



http://www.boston.com/news/world/mid...ategic_defeat/

moonlight, i cant respond to your last response to me because you responded without quoting anything and I dont have the patience to go back and read everything over again, however I will say this, just because Israel admitted "deafeat" as you call it, or failed to meet their objectives doesnt mean in any way that Israel was at all "broken in interval" by this last war, in fact, if you have ever been to Israel or if you simply take a look at them outside of your "kill all the Jews in Israel and restablish an Arab Muslim state" box, you will see that Israel from an economic, military or international standpoint has not even been touched, in fact they have only grown over the years. The only damage that may have been done is a political one, and since it is a democracy that political defeat will only last so long. The violence that Hamas and Hezbollah and these various little wars or spats, produces no more than the same thing over and over. It is monotonous and wears mine and I am sure many others skin thin. If you think Hezbollah is great and Hamas is the same and you think they are both making progress, then you are in fact ignorant and blind. They will never be any more than they are today and will accomplish nothing but creating more animosity and provoking more Israeli settlements on Palestinian land. I will say one final time to you that violence begets violence, that is all. Israel is winning their war, they have all the land and international support they need. The have made nothing but progress since they acquired the land, what achievements have their enemies made, other than being able to carry this conflict on for 60 years and give up more land and dignity? Answer that, what achievements have Israels enemies made?

[Kidman]

Israel admitted they didn't achieve all of their objectives...but that doesn't equate to a "loss" either. Israel actually had concrete goals they wished to achieve, mainly the destruction of Hezbollah positions in southern Lebanon. They wiped much of it off the map, but they didn't achieve all of their goals in that endeavor.

[Keltoi]

Excuse me? Care to post a comment?

[Moon*Light]

ahsan28,

The UN peace keepers exist in the south since 1978. They added to their number, they live on leased land. There is no security zone, people come and go.

If you know about the attack on the UN in the past year they have asked Hizba’Allah to help them find out who has done the attack because Hizba’Allah still exists in the south and they always will be. The resistance fighters are the people of the villages.

Hizba’Allah never showed any military signs before 2006 and not after 2006 nothing changed except more UN soldiers who can’t even protect themselves not sure how they are going to help the Lebanese. *roll eyes*

Seriously lol the Israelis didn’t even reach the Litani river.

Not sure why you have all this grand idea about the IOF they are weaker than anyone thinks. Why do you think the Israelis stopped the war if they could get rid what you call “crude” rockets?

Why did they not destroy Hizba’Allah? Why didn’t they achieve the goals of the war?

Oh oh I know the answer! They admitted defeat! I posted you proof where is your proof? You have nothing.

Unprecedented destruction? Ever heard of the 78 invasion? How about the 82 one, how about 93, 96? Do you think there was no destruction?

By the way those “crude” rockets destroyed merkva and warships. Sure “crude” :D

[Moon*Light]

moonlight, i cant respond to your last response to me because you responded without quoting anything and I dont have the patience to go back and read everything over again, however I will say this, just because Israel admitted "deafeat" as you call it, or failed to meet their objectives doesnt mean in any way that Israel was at all "broken in interval" by this last war, in fact, if you have ever been to Israel or if you simply take a look at them outside of your "kill all the Jews in Israel and restablish an Arab Muslim state" box, you will see that Israel from an economic, military or international standpoint has not even been touched, in fact they have only grown over the years.

Correction they call it a defeat. Once and for all, accept it.

Haha, don’t worry I don’t need to go to “Israel” to see what they do. You mean the wide corruption they have? I suggest you open haaretz and ynet news to see their “wonderful society. Do you mean their former president who got away with his sexual harassment? How about Oulmert who most of the Israelis don’t want him but he sticks to the PM chair like glue? How about Sharon’s corrupt children and their thievery? Or Dan Halutz who sold stocks before the 2006 war?

You mean that society? Wow yes I should learn from those. I should learn from them the “love” they show to the Palestinians. I should learn from them their love towards Arabs.

Sure I need to learn something from them.

I told you before don’t change my views. I don’t hate Jews. I’m against Zionists and Israelis because of their actions and they don’t have to be from a certain religion or race obviously.

I know my enemy :)

Answer that, what achievements have Israels enemies made?

Why are you repeating questions? I answered that. I also don’t have patience to go back and look it up.

So what if they have international support that means they are right? Wow, that’s nice, did you tell that to the prophet (asw) when all of Qurish were against him how about the ahsab?

Yes we should quake in our boots because of this, I’m so scared now!

Pffft!

[Keltoi]

Correction they call it a defeat. Once and for all, accept it.

Haha, don’t worry I don’t need to go to “Israel” to see what they do. You mean the wide corruption they have? I suggest you open haaretz and ynet news to see their “wonderful society. Do you mean their former president who got away with his sexual harassment? How about Oulmert who most of the Israelis don’t want him but he sticks to the PM chair like glue? How about Sharon’s corrupt children and their thievery? Or Dan Halutz who sold stocks before the 2006 war?

You mean that society? Wow yes I should learn from those. I should learn from them the “love” they show to the Palestinians. I should learn from them their love towards Arabs.

Sure I need to learn something from them.

I told you before don’t change my views. I don’t hate Jews. I’m against Zionists and Israelis because of their actions and they don’t have to be from a certain religion or race obviously.

I know my enemy :)



Why are you repeating questions? I answered that. I also don’t have patience to go back and look it up.

So what if they have international support that means they are right? Wow, that’s nice, did you tell that to the prophet (asw) when all of Qurish were against him how about the ahsab?

Yes we should quake in our boots because of this, I’m so scared now!

Pffft!

Sure, you aren't scared because you're safely back at home in front of a computer...probably somewhere in the West. You aren't special though, there are plenty of people cheerleading for violence half a world away.

[Cabdullahi]

Im sorry to say this but american and israel have turned the world upside down although most americans would disagree im sure keltoi would do the same, i understand that if my country caused oppression like america it would be kind of hard for me to acknowlegde it because its my country.i dont hate the american people i think they are the most friendly people around but i bloody hate the government!

[ahsan28]

ahsan28,

Unprecedented destruction? Ever heard of the 78 invasion? How about the 82 one, how about 93, 96? Do you think there was no destruction?

If destruction was a normal feature for Hezbollah, why did Nasrallah appear on TV and regretted the nation? We should read his statement carefully.

Regarding River Litani, you may reconsider your claim.

[Fishman]

:sl:
Anybody can declare open war on something, it doesn't make it legitimate. I could declare war on every soverign entity in the world. That doesn't make it a real war, just firey words.
:w:

[Keltoi]

:sl:
Anybody can declare open war on something, it doesn't make it legitimate. I could declare war on every soverign entity in the world. That doesn't make it a real war, just firey words.
:w:

Sort of like the War on Drugs...:hmm:

[Pygoscelis]

Sort of like the War on Drugs...:hmm:

I do my part in the war on drugs. I smoke them drugs to death.

[ahsan28]

ahsan28,

Seriously lol the Israelis didn’t even reach the Litani river.

August 12, 2006 :embarrass

In the last few hours, Hizballah’s command and control in the south is showing signs of distress after finding itself cut off from reinforcements and re-supply from the north by the rapid Israeli advances of the last four days.

The second segment of the Northern Division has been positioned since Thursday on the southern bank of the Litani after capturing Qantara.


http://doctor-horsefeathers.com/archives2/000609.php


Israeli Forces Reach The Litani :embarrass


In a massive push, Israeli units have reached the Litani River in Southern Lebanon. This is a very rapid advance, and is somewhat unexpected.

The units were part of a massive force that flooded into Lebanon, trying to seize as much territory as possible before a U.N. cease-fire comes into effect. The objective was to control southern Lebanon up to the Litani River, about 18 miles from the Israeli border, before handing over the area to the Lebanese army and U.N. troops.


http://bluecrabboulevard.com/2006/08...ch-the-litani/



They didn't cross the river, but it would have been just one night operation before witnessing zionists in central Lebanon. The situation Hezbollah was put into by the zionists was extremely difficult to handle. Not only them, rather any professional army would have faced similar problems. Fighting when cut off from main supply routes becomes impossible. Even if we take that Hezbollah had converted small localities into strong points, they could have sustained for few days only.

Military capabilities are conditional to what you have in hand during worst scenerios. Crude rockets supplied by Iran and Syria would have been useless at the tactical level, had the war continued for a couple of weeks more :nervous:

[Keltoi]

I do my part in the war on drugs. I smoke them drugs to death.

That's interesting....and enlightening. :D

[Moon*Light]

Sure, you aren't scared because you're safely back at home in front of a computer...probably somewhere in the West. You aren't special though, there are plenty of people cheerleading for violence half a world away.

I wonder why this is always thrown back at me. Why do you think I know all the information I stated? I have never been to the West.

Can you guess where I live?

If destruction was a normal feature for Hezbollah, why did Nasrallah appear on TV and regretted the nation? We should read his statement carefully.

Regarding River Litani, you may reconsider your claim.

Read the statement? I watched his interview more than once. I answered you very clearly before, do you want me to repeat myself?

Haha, I stick to the truth they never reached the Litani river.

No one is answering my points, ah well I’m used to that because no one seems to really know what even happened in that war. Not your fault really with the way the media works these days.

Ever heard of propaganda? The Israelis army was lying.

From an Israeli himself: The Thirty Three Day War

From Mania to Depression

By URI AVNERY, August 17, 2006

Tel Aviv.

This will not replace Hizbullah. Hizbullah will remain in the area, in every village and town. The Israeli army has not succeeded in removing it from one single village. That was simply impossible without permanently removing the population to which it belongs.

The town of Bint Jbeil, for example, right next to the border, was taken by the army three times, and the Hizbullah fighters remained there to the end. If we had occupied 20 towns and villages like this one, the soldiers and the tanks would have been exposed in twenty places to the mortal attacks of the guerillas with their highly effective anti-tank weapons.

The aim was to photograph the victorious soldiers on the bank of the Litani. The operation could only last 48 hours, when the cease-fire would come into force. In spite of the fact that the army used helicopters to land the troops, the aim was not attained. At no point did the army reach the Litani.

There is not a single word of truth in this. This operation, which was planned and which the army spent years training for, was not carried out earlier, because it was clear that it would not bring any meaningful gains but would be costly in lives. The army would, indeed, have occupied wide areas, but without being able to dislodge the Hizbullah fighters from them.

BUT THESE facts are not yet clear to the general public. The brain-washing by the military commentators and the ex-generals, who dominated the media at the time, has turned the foolish--I would almost say "criminal"--operation into a rousing victory parade. The decision of the political leadership to stop it is now being seen by many as an act of defeatist, spineless, corrupt and even treasonous politicians.

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery08172006.html


Get your facts straight :)

[ahsan28]

I never knew these facts before. I admit my fault. Can you tell me why did Hezbollah accept cease-fire at a stage when they were about to defeat zionists as you claim it to be?

[ahsan28]

Two weeks have passed but declaration of war by Hezbollah against zionists has not been manifested on ground and we are discussing almost two years old conflict. We may resume the discussion when the war starts as per the claim of Hezbollah :D

[Moon*Light]

Bro they already were defeated when the seize fire was made, they couldn't clean any village, stop the rockets, destroy Hizba'Allah, reach Litani etc.

You have asked me this three times. What do you think Hizba'Allah should have done? They were fighting off an invasion, when the invasion ended because the Israelis couldn't carry any more what else would you have them do?

Shall they carry on leaving the people in the schools?

They are a resistance.

[Moon*Light]

Two weeks have passed but declaration of war by Hezbollah against zionists has not been manifested on ground and we are discussing almost two years old conflict. We may resume the discussion when the war starts as per the claim of Hezbollah

Another out of context statement, Sayed Nasra'Allah said, if you want this kind of open war, then this kind of war will happen.

In his later message a week later he said we will pick the place, and way to reply to the attack.

So the Israelis are still worried, waiting, and on alert. That costs money and is good psychological warfare :D

Let them wait, it will come.

[ahsan28]

In his later message a week later he said we will pick the place, and way to reply to the attack.

He seems confident, so let see what happens on ground.

[Moon*Light]

Yup finally we agree :)

[ahsan28]

Agree to what? I said we shall see manifestation of his statement. I am just concerned about innocent Lebanese who are caught in the middle of this dirty game called proxy war. What goes of Nasrallah? He has to appear on TV and just regret before his people as he did before. But I am sure he will not commit any mistake in future. I sincerely pray for the people of Lebanon that they don't have to suffer again because of such rhetorics turning into yet another conflict.

[The_Prince]

i hope they do something big, especially after the last 2 days, 8 palestinian children killed by the savage zionists, including a 6 month old baby.

[Gator]

i hope they do something big, especially after the last 2 days, 8 palestinian children killed by the savage zionists, including a 6 month old baby.

Yes, hopefully they'll be able to kill at least a few 5-month old Israeli babies.

[The_Prince]

Yes, hopefully they'll be able to kill at least a few 5-month old Israeli babies.

6 month old*

[The_Prince]

Two weeks have passed but declaration of war by Hezbollah against zionists has not been manifested on ground and we are discussing almost two years old conflict. We may resume the discussion when the war starts as per the claim of Hezbollah :D

hezbollah are smart, they are not idiots like the ones in england and scotland, the one in england who made a "fire" cracker in picadily as a bomb, and the 2 other buffoons who ran their car into the airport only making themselves catch fire and causes damage on the front lawn.

hezbollah plans things and makes sure it is perfect and very effective. Hezbollah has always backed what they say, they arent based on rheteric like other groups, they actually do what they say, so be patient, the response will come and it will be a very nice response for these zionist savages.

[The_Prince]

Agree to what? I said we shall see manifestation of his statement. I am just concerned about innocent Lebanese who are caught in the middle of this dirty game called proxy war. What goes of Nasrallah? He has to appear on TV and just regret before his people as he did before. But I am sure he will not commit any mistake in future. I sincerely pray for the people of Lebanon that they don't have to suffer again because of such rhetorics turning into yet another conflict.

you said the taliban were 'true' fighters....the same taliban who send suicide bombers that leave 80 afgan civillians dead and ZERO nato forces dead????????

why dont we get all the stats of taliban suicide bombings, and look at the casualities, and compare the afghan civillian with NATO forces. your double standards and sheer hypocrisy is amazing i must say, and plz dont be so lame and say no no no that wasnt the taliban, that was natoooooo undercoverrrrrrrrrrrrrr! taliban themselves admit most of the suicide bombings we see that leave dozens of afghani civillians dead.

nasrallah is a very very brave men for saying what he did, i doubt the taliban will ever apologize for the hundreds of afghani civillians they kill in their supposed blessed operations.

and btw, i aint no american supporter neither, they are just as bad because they kill thousands of innocent afghani civillians, its very sad that the afghani ppl have no real resistence to protect them.

[The_Prince]

btw ahsan, the taliban a few months ago released a video of men with bombs strapped to their bodies, and the leader said that all these men will be going into europe, england, germany, france etc etc, hmmm many months have passed and i dont know about you, but i havent seen any taliban bombs in europe, have you?

you have a problem that its been 2 weeks since hezbollah declared war and nothing has happened, yet you have no problem when months have gone by since the taliban made claims of attack on europe, lol your on a roll i must say.

[Gator]

6 month old*

Yes the Israelis killed the 6-month old and numerous other children. I just thought it would be better if Hez were able to kill even younger babies. Maybe get lucky and hit a nursery with a rocket or something.

[ahsan28]

you said the taliban were 'true' fighters....the same taliban who send suicide bombers that leave 80 afgan civillians dead and ZERO nato forces dead????????

why dont we get all the stats of taliban suicide bombings, and look at the casualities, and compare the afghan civillian with NATO forces. your double standards and sheer hypocrisy is amazing i must say, and plz dont be so lame and say no no no that wasnt the taliban, that was natoooooo undercoverrrrrrrrrrrrrr! taliban themselves admit most of the suicide bombings we see that leave dozens of afghani civillians dead.

nasrallah is a very very brave men for saying what he did, i doubt the taliban will ever apologize for the hundreds of afghani civillians they kill in their supposed blessed operations.

and btw, i aint no american supporter neither, they are just as bad because they kill thousands of innocent afghani civillians, its very sad that the afghani ppl have no real resistence to protect them.

I never supported their wrong actions. But for the last 6 years they are resisting against foreign occupation in their humble capacity, unlike Narrallah who initiated the war himself and couldn't resist for 6 weeks even. No Taliban leader ever appeared on TV regretting the decision to fight. I am not a fan of zionists either but it is equally sad that Lebanese don't have real resistance to protect them. They only become target of proxy wars.

[ahsan28]

nasrallah is a very very brave men for saying what he did

I agree.

(Beirut, August 29, 2007) – During the 2006 war, Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately and at times deliberately at civilian areas in northern Israel, killing at least 39 civilians, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Human Rights Watch said that Hezbollah’s justifications for its attacks on Israeli towns – as a response to indiscriminate Israeli fire into southern Lebanon and to draw Israel into a ground war – had no legal basis under the laws of war.

Hezbollah rockets, some carrying anti-personnel steel spheres, repeatedly hit populated areas in northern Israel. Human Rights Watch found that numerous rockets were fired in which there was no apparent legitimate military target in the vicinity at the time of the attack, indicating that civilians were deliberately attacked.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007...ebano16740.htm


They did try the same zionist tactics, but the rockets supplied by Syria and Iran were crude and thus unable to create the desired impact :D

[The_Prince]

I never supported their wrong actions. But for the last 6 years they are resisting against foreign occupation in their humble capacity, unlike Narrallah who initiated the war himself and couldn't resist for 6 weeks even. No Taliban leader ever appeared on TV regretting the decision to fight. I am not a fan of zionists either but it is equally sad that Lebanese don't have real resistance to protect them. They only become target of proxy wars.

actually hezbollah does protect the lebanease better than the taliban does, show me any hezbollah rocket or bomber killing hunderds of lebanease civillians????????

the taliban carry out their attacks against the afghani civllians!!!!!!!!!! the supposed ppl their supposed to be protecting, now how is that possible?

now you say you never supported their wrong actions and then go on to say their fighting in their 'humble' capacity as IF to show their wrong actions are mere small hiccups, are you serious? they have killed THOUSANDS of innocent afghani MUSLIMS, and this is what you call their humble way of fighting? plz dont try to minimize the talibans terrible wrong actions as mere hiccups.

they are not fighting humbly at all, unless you consider suicide and car bombings which leave hundreds of afghanis dead and zero nato forces!

and what is going in lebanon is not a 100% complete proxy war, lebanease land is occupied, lebanease prisoners are still being held in israel, so no it is not all about a proxy war. iran and syria just happen to support hezbollah through finances and weapons, just like USA supports israel with the weapons and finances.

if the taliban want to fight humbly let them simply carry out major offenses against NATO bases, and nato forces in open areas where no civillians are roaming, rather than using huge bombs in market places.

[The_Prince]

I agree.

(Beirut, August 29, 2007) – During the 2006 war, Hezbollah fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately and at times deliberately at civilian areas in northern Israel, killing at least 39 civilians, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. Human Rights Watch said that Hezbollah’s justifications for its attacks on Israeli towns – as a response to indiscriminate Israeli fire into southern Lebanon and to draw Israel into a ground war – had no legal basis under the laws of war.

Hezbollah rockets, some carrying anti-personnel steel spheres, repeatedly hit populated areas in northern Israel. Human Rights Watch found that numerous rockets were fired in which there was no apparent legitimate military target in the vicinity at the time of the attack, indicating that civilians were deliberately attacked.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2007...ebano16740.htm


They did try the same zionist tactics, but the rockets supplied by Syria and Iran were crude and thus unable to create the desired impact :D

they actually did get the desired impact because over a million israelis were filled with fear and had to go into hiding, the rocket attacks are not meant to destroy israel, but are meant to create terror and fear amongst the israelis, to stop their lives, ruin their econamy, so they can feel what the palestinians feel, as well as what the lebanease feel.

now how inconsistent, you claim hezbollah attack civillians, yet you say the taliban HUMBLY fight as they can, so that means kidnapping aid workers and killing them? including the drivers? including killing journalists as well? plz be consistent, your biasness is so bad its not even funny.

secondly, hezbollah did not target any civillians. did you know each israeli from 18 and above are enlisted in the army as reserves? they are all technically soldiers. you keep going on about the lebanease civillians, do you know many of the lebanease civillians were KILLED by such reservists? the ppl you call innocent civillians!

one day they are selling dvd's, the next day they are firing shells in lebanon killing entire famillies, this is what you call a civillian? i think not. so no hezbollah did not target any civillian, they targeted israeli reservists living inside israel.

but again, lets assume they are civillians, what about the taliban killing aid workers, and their drivers?! and journalists?! and last but certainly not least, the thousands of afghani civillians???????????????

[ahsan28]

Well you can scan my entire posts. I never supported suicidal attacks. These are haram according to all the schools of jurisprudence. Where Talibans are wrong, I never support them. I condemn attacks on non-combatants in all form, may it be by the Talibans or Hezbollah. Islamic ruling is quite clear on the issue. Lebanon's land is being used by Iran and Syria since long. This is no hidden mystery, yet the sufferings are being faced by the innocent people who are not in the decision making loop. The zionists degraded almost the entire infrastructure in Southern Lebanon. They were in the dire need of an oppertunity and that was provided by Hezbollah by kidnapping their two soldiers. Whether invading the other country by the zionists on the plea of only two soldiers was justified or not, that is a separate story but we have to admit that the grounds were created by Hezbollah themselves.

My only contention was that war is a dirty business and must be avoided as much as possible, but if you take a stand, then it has to be firm at any cost. No regrets at a later stage.

[ahsan28]

but again, lets assume they are civillians, what about the taliban killing aid workers, and their drivers?! and journalists?! and last but certainly not least, the thousands of afghani civillians???????????????

You don't have to assume anything. Hezbollah did try to adopt the same tactics but they weren't succesful. Taliban's killings of non-combatants (Muslims / non-Muslims) are opposed to shariah ruling. Let there be no doubt about that. Wrong is wrong and must be admitted and condemned vigorously.

[The_Prince]

You don't have to assume anything. Hezbollah did try to adopt the same tactics but they weren't succesful. Taliban's killings of non-combatants (Muslims / non-Muslims) are opposed to shariah ruling. Let there be no boubt about that. Wrong is wrong and must be admitted and condemned vigorously.

so dont say the taliban fight "humbly" when you admit they are doing many haram acts, the 2 dont go together, in Islam there is no black and white, its either right or wrong, if its wrong theres nothing humble about it.

hezbollahs tactics of firing rockets were very succesful as they terrorized the terrorist zionists in the north, and sent them all into hiding, destroyed the econamy, and destroyed their supposed invincibility.

[Keltoi]

so dont say the taliban fight "humbly" when you admit they are doing many haram acts, the 2 dont go together, in Islam there is no black and white, its either right or wrong, if its wrong theres nothing humble about it.

hezbollahs tactics of firing rockets were very succesful as they terrorized the terrorist zionists in the north, and sent them all into hiding, destroyed the econamy, and destroyed their supposed invincibility.

So why couldn't the Taliban make the same claim about their suicide attacks? This whole conversation about who is better between the Taliban and Hezbollah is full of hypocrisy.

By the way, the only "success" Hezbollah had with firing hundreds of rockets a day was the justification it gave Israel to continue bombing rocket launching locations which were located in close proximity to apartment buildings.

[ahsan28]

so dont say the taliban fight "humbly" when you admit they are doing many haram acts, the 2 dont go together, in Islam there is no black and white, its either right or wrong, if its wrong theres nothing humble about it.

hezbollahs tactics of firing rockets were very succesful as they terrorized the terrorist zionists in the north, and sent them all into hiding, destroyed the econamy, and destroyed their supposed invincibility.

So what were the material gains? If I take your plea then Hezbollah should have launched a full scale invasion and captured atleast parts of northern Israel.

[The_Prince]

So what were the material gains? If I take your plea then Hezbollah should have launched a full scale invasion and captured atleast parts of northern Israel.

your entire foundation is built on a straw man. hezbollahs intention and plan was NEVER to attack or invade israel and take it over, for starters they dont have the capability to do that yet.

so what was their tactic? very simply, survive. they never intended for a major war, so therefore they were attacked, hence when your attacked your goal is to defend and make sure you dont fall or lose.

if hezbollah initiate a war with the intent of taking back the land, and failed to do so then you can say they lost. but israel went in for the war with complete objectives of: 1- rescuing the soldiers, 2- destroy hezbollah.

hence hezbollah's goals to those 2 objectives of israel will be :1- make sure the soldiers are not rescued, 2- fight israel to the end and make sure you dont get wiped out and completly destroyed like the egyption and jordanians in 67.

so based on these important FACTS, hezbollah won the war.

[The_Prince]

So why couldn't the Taliban make the same claim about their suicide attacks? This whole conversation about who is better between the Taliban and Hezbollah is full of hypocrisy.

By the way, the only "success" Hezbollah had with firing hundreds of rockets a day was the justification it gave Israel to continue bombing rocket launching locations which were located in close proximity to apartment buildings.

oh yes and the only good guys are the american soldiers, and the IDF right?

tell us keltoi, who are the good guys in the war, im very curious to know.

[Keltoi]

I seriously doubt the Israeli military had much hope of seeing those soldiers alive again.

[Keltoi]

oh yes and the only good guys are the american soldiers, and the IDF right?

tell us keltoi, who are the good guys in the war, im very curious to know.

Good guys? This isn't a movie. I don't care about Israel one way or the other, they can take care of themselves. The good guys are the people caught in the middle, who would rather not be drawn into a war because Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers and who would also rather not be in the blast radius of an Israeli missile strike.

[ahsan28]

so what was their tactic? very simply, survive. they never intended for a major war, so therefore they were attacked, hence when your attacked your goal is to defend and make sure you dont fall or lose.

They had already lost the game militarily and that prompted Nasrallah to accept the ceasefire immediately. Had not been the case, they would have loved to continue this stupid war. Don't try to hide the facts. Those zionists were right upto the banks of river litani and awaiting further orders for crossing and degradation of central Lebanon. I don't have any illusion in my mind that the whole drama was started by Hezbollah on the insistance of their so-called well wishers but when they realised the gravity of the situation, they were left with no choice except accepting ceasefire which was quite evident from the words of Nasrallah himself.

[ahsan28]

The good guys are the people caught in the middle, who would rather not be drawn into a war because Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers .

Exactly.

[The_Prince]

They had already lost the game militarily and that prompted Nasrallah to accept the ceasefire immediately. Had not been the case, they would have loved to continue this stupid war. Don't try to hide the facts. Those zionists were right upto the banks of river litani and awaiting further orders for crossing and degradation of central Lebanon. I don't have any illusion in my mind that the whole drame was started by Hezbollah on the insistence of their so-called well wishers but when they realised the gravity of the situation, they were left with no choice except accepting ceasefire which was quite evident from the words of Nasrallah himself.

actually in the last days of the war the fighting was getting more intense and the israelis were losing more tanks and soldiers, if they had stayed the course they would have lost many more. hezbollah never denied israel could enter the land, but once they did move in the real casualties for the IDF would begin, which is why the idf also accepted the ceasfire rather then moving in completly.

israel couldnt even hold any small villages near the border, they couldnt even enter the centres of the villages they attacked.

so wrong again, you claiming nasrallah accepted a ceasfire because he was about to be defeated or crushed is not true but just empty rhetoric based on your biased disdain for hezbollah, hezbollah were very very much capable of continuing the fight, infact had the ceasfire not come into affect the real war would have started on hezbollahs view.

the only reason hezbollah accepted the treaty was because there was huge pressure from the lebanease to stop the war, and that many were suffering so he ended the war to quell the pressure, and ease the suffering of the people.

again on the last day of the war hezbollah fired more rockets than they had done in the ENTIRE war, so hezbollah could have continued the fight, and you have no proof at all that they were on the verge of a loss and destruction.

again you argue straw man by claiming the israelis moved in and were moving further, hezbollah even said they knew israel could do this but the difference is is that when israel does it hezbollah guerilla forces would be there to cause havoc and heavy losses on the israelis.

[The_Prince]

On 12 August 2006 24 Israeli soldiers were killed; the worst Israeli loss in a single day. Out of those 24, five soldiers were killed when Hezbollah shot down an Israeli helicopter, a first for the militia.[80] Hezbollah claimed the helicopter had been attacked with a Wa'ad missile

this was just a few days before the ceasefire when israel was pushing in. this is enough proof of what further awaited the zionist terrorist if they kept pushing further inside, this is what hezbollah WANTED, to get israel into the web, and then start the real war.

[The_Prince]

to be exact this was 2 days and a half before the ceasefire.

[MTAFFI]

Correction they call it a defeat. Once and for all, accept it.

OK no problem, Israel was defeated then, if using that term as a substitute for unable to attain their initial goals is better for you. Again I will repeat, I dont care about Israel or what happens to it, win or lose it has no effect on me.

Now do me a favor, tell me how Hezbollah won... Is it because they hung on to their two captives? Is it because they survived a short one month Israeli onslaught? If that is your logic I am afraid you are rather simple minded. You act as though their little rockets did so much to Israel, when ultimately it cost Israel very little, less than 50 civilians, very little infrastructure damage. Look at the Lebanese, what did they gain from the experience? International humanitarian support?

Haha, don’t worry I don’t need to go to “Israel” to see what they do. You mean the wide corruption they have? I suggest you open haaretz and ynet news to see their “wonderful society. Do you mean their former president who got away with his sexual harassment? How about Oulmert who most of the Israelis don’t want him but he sticks to the PM chair like glue? How about Sharon’s corrupt children and their thievery? Or Dan Halutz who sold stocks before the 2006 war?

Were we talking about politics or their higher standard of living? You go off on this tangent and all I suggested was that their daily lives werent effected as badly as you make it out to be.. Yes they have political corruption and so on, would you like to name a country that doesnt? Anyways your point is null and void since it has nothing to do with my initial point that the Israeli life carried on just as it did before the war.

You mean that society? Wow yes I should learn from those. I should learn from them the “love” they show to the Palestinians. I should learn from them their love towards Arabs.

Did I at any point as you to? Did I ever once say learn from them? I dont believe that there is anything to learn from them except it is to your benefit to have awesome firepower when you are surrounded by those who wish for your demise. But I never said learn from them did I? So stop fixing your responses to lead further discussion in a false direction

Sure I need to learn something from them.

REMEMBER YOU SAID IT NOT ME

I told you before don’t change my views. I don’t hate Jews. I’m against Zionists and Israelis because of their actions and they don’t have to be from a certain religion or race obviously.

I know my enemy :)

Certainly doesnt appear so

Why are you repeating questions? I answered that. I also don’t have patience to go back and look it up.

When did you answer it? if you did please copy and paste it here, as far as I have seen you just dance around that issue and bask in what little glory you can manifest from that pitiful 2006 Lebanon war. Good for you though, you can point out a victory from a group that doesnt have sustained documented numbers and who cant fight conventional war. Good for you, you can get joy out of that, personally the fact that number of lives were lost and the amount of ecological and structural damage that was caused will be passed down for the next half a century bothers me a bit. In fact, I cant see how anyone really won that playground fight, to me humanity lost again. But hey fight away, I am sure you will be on your death bed claiming the same thing, just as the many others who insisted Israel was on the brink of defeat over the past 60 years... Yet they just keep gobbling land and lives because of the inability of people like yourself to concede defeat and move on to make a better life. How incredibly sad.

So what if they have international support that means they are right? Wow, that’s nice, did you tell that to the prophet (asw) when all of Qurish were against him how about the ahsab?

Yes we should quake in our boots because of this, I’m so scared now!

Pffft!

If you are asking if I care if they have international support, I can tell you again I dont care either way, but to deny that it is a benefit to any country to be supported by the international community would be, well, stupid. It doesnt make them right in mine or your eyes, but it does allow them to continue what they have been doing for 60 years with monetary aid and without anyone really contesting their actions.

I wouldnt quake in my boots, but I would recognize the fact that it is a benefit.

[The_Prince]

the israelis began the litani offensive on august 11th, by the 14th they had 35 dead soldiers and several destroyed tanks.

[ahsan28]

just empty rhetoric based on your biased disdain for hezbollah, hezbollah were very very much capable of continuing the fight, infact had the ceasfire not come into affect the real war would have started on hezbollahs view.

the only reason hezbollah accepted the treaty was because there was huge pressure from the lebanease to stop the war, and that many were suffering so he ended the war to quell the pressure, and ease the suffering of the people.

well, your biased disdain towards Taibans can equally be seen. If nasrallah was so caring for his country, he wouldn't have initiated the baseless war by kidnapping two zionists. So therefore your reasoning behind accepting the ceasefire by Hezbollah is based on unjustifiable grounds. The fact of the matter remains that zionists were about to enter Central Lebanon and Hezbollah was in no capacity to continue the war. The only reason as being viewed is your personal opinion.

[ahsan28]

the only reason hezbollah accepted the treaty was because there was huge pressure from the lebanease to stop the war, and that many were suffering so he ended the war to quell the pressure, and ease the suffering of the people.

If that was the case as you view it to be, then why has he declared war on Israel again or do you think a new war will minimize the suffering of poor Lebanese because Hezbollah might have received fresh stock of crude rockets from their well wishers.

[The_Prince]

well, your biased disdain towards Taibans can equally be seen. If nasrallah was so caring for his country, he wouldn't have initiated the baseless war by kidnapping two zionists. So therefore your reasoning behind accepting the ceasefire by Hezbollah is based on unjustifiable grounds. The fact of the matter remains that zionists were about to enter Central Lebanon and Hezbollah was in no capacity to continue the war. The only reason as being viewed is your personal opinion.

what rubbish, my biased disdain for taliban?

where did i say anything wrong? are they not killing aid workers and drivers? are they not killing hundreds of afghani civillians through their bomb attacks? where is anything wrong or biased? dont make things up on me when you have lost the argument, EVEN YOU ADMITED THEY DO IT AND SAID ITS WRONG, now you call me bias? hillarious buddy, really.

as for nasrallah, he admited he didnt know it would happen, and APOLOGIZED FOR IT, so that ends that there, you can keep repeating it because you have nothing, and when you get refuted you just repeat yourself. he said hes sorry, and wouldnt have done it if he knew, what more you want? he has given money and help to ppl who lost homes etc etc.

and again you show no proof hezbollah couldnt continue the war, i showed stats from the last days of the war showing hezbollah was still fully functional, and again you attack straw man, hezbollah never said israel cant enter lebanon, hezbollah said they can, but when they do hezbollah will cause havoc and make sure they suffer until they pull out, which is what happened.

so its you with the biased propaganda since you provide no evidence, just empty words.

you have obviously lost this argument, bringing no proof, making things up on me, while the proof and stats and actual truth refute you.

but you made a claim, show me where im biased against the taliban, this will be funny as i said you even admited they do the wrong things, so you made a false claim on me, which sums it all up, you lost this argument just as israel lost the war.

[The_Prince]

ahsan stats from the last days of the war show israel losing more soldiers, more tanks, and hezbollah firing more rockets than at the beggining of the war.

thats enough to refute you and your empty nonsense, go on keep saying hezbollah had no capacity to fight, yet the stats come back and crush that false myth you propagate.

[The_Prince]

let me make a whole summary to just refute everything you keep saying ahsan:

ahsan: israel was moving into lebanon

answer: hezbollah never said they could stop israel from moving, hence ahsan is guilty of straw man and making things up, rather hezbollah's tactics is for israel to move into lebanon, and then wage a full guerilla war on them, causing massive havoc, death, and carnage forcing the israelis to pull out such as in 2000. it is like a web, hezbollah wants israel in this web, and stuck, and then attack from there. so israel moving inside lebanon means nothing.

ahsan: hezbollah accepted ceasfire because they had no capacity to fight on

answer: false claim based on no facts, statistics from the end of the war, the last days shows hezbollah firing more rockets than they did at the start of war, it shows israeli soldiers dying at higher rate than the start, shows israeli weaponry being destroyed at a faster rate. this point also ties in with point one, that hezbollah wants israel to push into lebanon so they can inflict higher damage and death upon the israelis, which SUPRISE SUPRISE is exactly what we saw when israel conducted the push.

ahsan: why did hezbollah make such a war and let lebanease people suffer?!

answer: hezbollah miscalculated israel's response, and their very leader nasrallah admited it, and apologized, and said if he knew israel would react like they did then he would not have done it. generals have often miscalculated their enemies response, this is not the first time it has happened, nor will it be the last. hezbollah has given lots of money, and shelter to those civillians who suffered.

ahsan: the taliban are good fighters because they dont accept ceasefire

answer: the taliban have killed thousands of innocent afghani civillians because of bomb attacks and suicide bombings, the very same attacks that leaves dozens of afghani dead and ZERO nato casualties. the taliban kill and kidnap AID WORKERS and their helpless DRIVERS as well. ahsan agrees this is wrong, but then calls me biased when he admits this is all true, hence how am i biased for reporting the truth and even ahsan agrees and says its wrong, yet ahsan shows his inconsistency by persisting that the taliban are humble good and better fighters than hezbollah!

all in all folks ahsan has nothing, just inconsistency, straw mans, and biasness. case closed.

[ahsan28]

what rubbish, my biased disdain for taliban?

where did i say anything wrong? are they not killing aid workers and drivers? are they not killing hundreds of afghani civillians through their bomb attacks? where is anything wrong or biased? dont make things up on me when you have lost the argument, EVEN YOU ADMITED THEY DO IT AND SAID ITS WRONG, now you call me bias? hillarious buddy, really.

as for nasrallah, he admited he didnt know it would happen, and APOLOGIZED FOR IT, so that ends that there, you can keep repeating it because you have nothing, and when you get refuted you just repeat yourself. he said hes sorry, and wouldnt have done it if he knew, what more you want? he has given money and help to ppl who lost homes etc etc.

and again you show no proof hezbollah couldnt continue the war, i showed stats from the last days of the war showing hezbollah was still fully functional, and again you attack straw man, hezbollah never said israel cant enter lebanon, hezbollah said they can, but when they do hezbollah will cause havoc and make sure they suffer until they pull out, which is what happened.

so its you with the biased propaganda since you provide no evidence, just empty words.

you have obviously lost this argument, bringing no proof, making things up on me, while the proof and stats and actual truth refute you.

but you made a claim, show me where im biased against the taliban, this will be funny as i said you even admited they do the wrong things, so you made a false claim on me, which sums it all up, you lost this argument just as israel lost the war.

My views on killings of civilians are quite clear and I have repeatedly made it clear. But that doesn't mean Talibans have surrendered before occupation forces or accepted ceasefire for the last six years. I can produce numerous reports of zionists advancing in the end and Hezbollah not in a position to stop the onslaught. The fear of defeat actually pressurized nasrallah to accept the ceasefire, not the suffering of the people, as if he was a kid, not knowing the consequences of a war.

The claim was not false, you were trying to project Talibans as if they were involved in civilian killing only, ignoring the other facts, which lead to the conclusion that occupation forces are not so viable as they were in the initial years of Afghanistan war, due to continued resistance by the Talibans spaced over six long years, not just 33 days.

[AvarAllahNoor]

What happened to the Ummah? why do the muslim nations not come together and rectify this problem?

[ahsan28]

ahsan: why did hezbollah make such a war and let lebanease people suffer?!

answer: hezbollah miscalculated israel's response, and their very leader nasrallah admited it, and apologized, and said if he knew israel would react like they did then he would not have done it.

Thanks.

[muslima1]

What happened to the Ummah? why do the muslim nations not come together and rectify this problem?

I have no idea but uniting would solve alot of problem that arise in the ummah.

[The_Prince]

My views on killings of civilians are quite clear and I have repeatedly made it clear. But that doesn't mean Talibans have surrendered before occupation forces or accepted ceasefire for the last six years. I can produce numerous reports of zionists advancing in the end and Hezbollah not in a position to stop the onslaught. The fear of defeat actually pressurized nasrallah to accept the ceasefire, not the suffering of the people, as if he was a kid, not knowing the consequences of a war.

The claim was not false, you were trying to project Talibans as if they were involved in civilian killing only, ignoring the other facts, which lead to the conclusion that occupation forces are not so viable as they were in the initial years of Afghanistan war, due to continued resistance by the Talibans spaced over six long years, not just 33 days.

lol your ending is so funny you know?

oh yes the taliban kill thousands of muslims through bombs, but no no you sami you dont mention the other parts where they kill a few dozen nato soldiers!!!!!!!!! are you serious? PLZ DONT TELL ME YOUR SERIOUS BY THIS??????

what good is it to fight the nato for supposedly oppressing your people when your killing the very same ppl, killing more of them than nato????

again and again you bring no proof to back your claim on hezbollah not being able to fight, i dont blame you since you have no proof and the stats refute you, but you can keep repeating yourself, it doesnt bother me because you and i know your wrong, yes you even know you have no proof.

and you repeat yourself again saying israel is moving in and hezbollah couldnt stop it, LOL so funny i specifically adressed that before, your just repeating yourself even when you have already been refuted.

now go on, repeat the same things you did again.

[The_Prince]

Thanks.

if your saying thanks to act like you won something then you didnt, because at least hezbollah can apologize for wrongs, unlike the taliban who say ohhhhhh we killed a few nato so its okay!

if your not being sarcastic then the argument refutes half of what you say, so you are very welcome.

[Keltoi]

I realize that groups like Hezbollah and the Taliban believe it is a major victory when they manage to kill either a U.S., NATO, or Israeli soldier...but that just shows the long-term pointlessness of that kind of mentality. They cannot win through military means. In the case of NATO, the British, the U.S., i.e. the West, these countries are used to major conflicts with thousands upon thousands of military deaths. In context these conflicts are skirmishes at best.

In the case of Israel, in order to fully achieve their goals they would have had to occupy southern Lebanon, not something the Israeli people were too keen on doing all over again. What Israel accomplished was showing Hezbollah that they cannot kidnap Israeli soldiers in cross border incursions without a response. A response that many called "overkill".

[Moon*Light]

:sl:

Thank you bro The_prince for answering what I can call the false propaganda circled by many and some members on this forum. They like to believe they have the truth but they even deny the truth that is in front of their eyes. They argue endlessly over answered points.

-----------

Agree to what? I said we shall see manifestation of his statement. I am just concerned about innocent Lebanese who are caught in the middle of this dirty game called proxy war. What goes of Nasrallah? He has to appear on TV and just regret before his people as he did before. But I am sure he will not commit any mistake in future. I sincerely pray for the people of Lebanon that they don't have to suffer again because of such rhetorics turning into yet another conflict.

To see what happens ahsan, you like to argue for no reason? You keep repeating things I already answered to what avail?

Don’t worry about the Lebanese.

By the way, the only "success" Hezbollah had with firing hundreds of rockets a day was the justification it gave Israel to continue bombing rocket launching locations which were located in close proximity to apartment buildings.

Oh hilarious! Ever seen a rocket launched beside a house or in a closed area? What do think happens to the one who launched it? That is the most ridiculous excuse ever.

Besides there were no rockets launched from the southern suburbs of Beirut where 10s of buildings were destroyed.

[Moon*Light]

OK no problem, Israel was defeated then, if using that term as a substitute for unable to attain their initial goals is better for you. Again I will repeat, I dont care about Israel or what happens to it, win or lose it has no effect on me.

Now do me a favor, tell me how Hezbollah won... Is it because they hung on to their two captives? Is it because they survived a short one month Israeli onslaught? If that is your logic I am afraid you are rather simple minded. You act as though their little rockets did so much to Israel, when ultimately it cost Israel very little, less than 50 civilians, very little infrastructure damage. Look at the Lebanese, what did they gain from the experience? International humanitarian support?

You are the one who calls it’s a spat when military officials around the world called it a war. You call it nothing, when these same people are studying how it was possible for Hizaba’Allah to win.

Do you recall Condi Rice said something close to: This war is the birth of a new Middle East? What did she mean by that? Was that attained?

We are talking about something far more greater than a spat and two soldiers. You wish to believe it is that then go ahead and be my guest.

Those rockets cost the Israelis Merkava tanks, some helicopters, warships and many things the media didn’t put. Do you know about 80% of these rockets fell on military areas? Did anyone know what is the lost? Or did the Israelis follow the reporters and didn’t allow them to see anything?

Heck small rockets of Hamas sent an Israeli official to run for safety the other day, you are telling me that the rockets Hizba’Allah used doesn’t cause fear for the Israelis?


About what I should learn from the Israelis, I was answering you about their progress.

Certainly doesnt appear so

Whatever, I know what I believe and don’t believe, whomever would have invaded Palestine or Lebanon I would be against them.

When did you answer it? if you did please copy and paste it here, as far as I have seen you just dance around that issue and bask in what little glory you can manifest from that pitiful 2006 Lebanon war. Good for you though, you can point out a victory from a group that doesnt have sustained documented numbers and who cant fight conventional war. Good for you, you can get joy out of that, personally the fact that number of lives were lost and the amount of ecological and structural damage that was caused will be passed down for the next half a century bothers me a bit. In fact, I cant see how anyone really won that playground fight, to me humanity lost again. But hey fight away, I am sure you will be on your death bed claiming the same thing, just as the many others who insisted Israel was on the brink of defeat over the past 60 years... Yet they just keep gobbling land and lives because of the inability of people like yourself to concede defeat and move on to make a better life. How incredibly sad.

Wow, so I’m the one who has to go through 13 pages, I suggest you do it. Also you keep telling me it is a spat and I answered that also, you are the one going over the same arguments again and again.

Haha, sheesh do you have a clue about what we are talking about it seems not, Hizaba’Allah is a resistance of course they don’t fight a conventional war.

Believe as you wish, not that it matters. What matters is what is happening on the ground. We’ll see what becomes of “Israel”. The crusaders stayed a very long time and ended up leaving, so no different.

I wouldnt quake in my boots, but I would recognize the fact that it is a benefit.

That is always taken into consideration.

[Keltoi]

:sl:

Thank you bro The_prince for answering what I can call the false propaganda circled by many and some members on this forum. They like to believe they have the truth but they even deny the truth that is in front of their eyes. They argue endlessly over answered points.

-----------



To see what happens ahsan, you like to argue for no reason? You keep repeating things I already answered to what avail?

Don’t worry about the Lebanese.




Oh hilarious! Ever seen a rocket launched beside a house or in a closed area? What do think happens to the one who launched it? That is the most ridiculous excuse ever.

Besides there were no rockets launched from the southern suburbs of Beirut where 10s of buildings were destroyed.

How would you know? Launching rockets from beside or near some kind of structure is almost necessary, otherwise you are launching from an open position without any kind of cover...unless you have air support. The point is whether those buildings are full of people or not. Israeli pilots were locking on to heat signatures. Firing crude rockets from the back of pickup trucks leaves a very recognizable heat signature. The Israeli military has released numerous gun cam videos of pickup trucks firing rockets from beside civilian structures...before the explosion of course.

The question is whether Israel was justified in taking out those targets knowing that they were using civilians as shields.

[Fishman]

:sl:

Oh hilarious! Ever seen a rocket launched beside a house or in a closed area? What do think happens to the one who launched it? That is the most ridiculous excuse ever.

:sl:
Good point. Contary to what every action movie and violent video game says, it is dangerous to launch rockets from a closed room (its pretty bad to launch them anywhere, but never mind). The backblast will create a pressure wave that can easily kill. And there is always the possibility that the rocket might swerve off and hit a wall near you.

But then, aren't those rockets they use launched from trucks?
:w:

[Keltoi]

:sl:
Good point. Contary to what every action movie and violent video game says, it is dangerous to launch rockets from a closed room (its pretty bad to launch them anywhere, but never mind). The backblast will create a pressure wave that can easily kill. And there is always the possibility that the rocket might swerve off and hit a wall near you.

But then, aren't those rockets they use launched from trucks?
:w:

It isn't that they are firing those rockets from "inside" a building, but in close proximity to a building. It isn't a bad strategy, because firing crude rockets from the back of trucks in an open field isn't exactly intelligent knowing the Israeli air force is targeting you. The question isn't the strategy of it, it is whether it is moral to use civilian structures to provide cover for rocket teams. Then there is the question whether it is moral to strike those targets knowing that the blast radius will probably effect those civilian structures nearby.