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View Full Version : Can there be justice in Guantanamo Bay?



Muezzin
02-18-2008, 03:03 PM
The US military commissions could mean that America risks having its own system of justice being put on trial

Clive Baldwin

I have worked on and observed trials around the world from Kosovo to Kenya, but I have never experienced anything quite like the military commissions at Guantanamo Bay. It is probably the only place in the world where observers go to court each morning by gunboat.

Being on the Guantanamo Bay naval base is an experience in itself, part rocky beachfront, part small-town America. It’s a balmy Caribbean February. The observers, together with the media, are housed on the west side of the bay, which separates us from the main base, the stores and residences, and the inaccessible detention facilities. To get to the commission hearings we have to cross the bay itself - usually in fast gunboats. The base is much larger than I expected, with McDonald's, Starbucks and other amenities to make it feel like home for the military personnel. One distant gate marks the boundary of the base with Castro’s Cuba. Signs around the base warn that anyone harming the rare iguanas found here faces a $10,000 (£5,000) fine. There are no such signs concerning the protection of the detainees.

I spent a week in Guantanamo to observe for Human Rights Watch hearings in the only two criminal cases presently being heard there: those of Omar Khadr, a Canadian, and Salim Hamdan, a Yemeni once a driver and bodyguard to Osama bin Laden. Both cases are in pretrial hearings.

Six years after the first detainees were brought to Guantanamo, there has still not been a single trial.

There are several reasons but the key is the initial decision of the Bush Administration not to pursue cases in a regular US federal court, or even in a court martial, but before special military commissions.

Last Monday the US Government announced that six alleged key conspirators of September 11, including Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind, would be charged with various offences and face the death penalty. But that still leaves more than 260 people without any criminal charges. They are simply being detained.

In 2006 the US Supreme Court in Hamdan’s case found the military commissions at Guantanamo to be illegal because they permitted prosecutions in violation of the Geneva Conventions and were not in conformity with the US Code of Military Justice. In response, the US Congress passed legislation to create a new structure of military commissions.

The courtroom at Guantanamo was created for the commissions and a permanent building is in the works. However, it’s not just the buildings but an entire justice system that is being created from scratch. It is therefore not surprising that many of the pretrial arguments have been about fundamental questions of jurisdiction and what crimes, and what suspects, the commissions can deal with. The US Government is claiming that this novel system of justice cannot rely on any other body of established law and thus the commissions have no precedents to draw on in deciding highly complex issues.

One of these is the Government’s oft-repeated arguments that Guantanamo detainees have no rights under the US Constitution or international law. For example, in the case of Omar Khadr, the Government believes that the commission can try a child soldier without any regard for his juvenile status. Khadr was 15 when taken prisoner during a firefight in Afghanistan with US soldiers in which he is alleged to have killed an American.

International law places a duty on states to treat juvenile soldiers with an eye to rehabilitating them. Unlike the couple of other children held at Guantanamo, the US has never treated Khadr as a child, for instance, by housing him in quarters separate from adults.

At the pretrial hearing the Government argued that the military commissions not only apply to juveniles but require them to be treated as adults. Thus, Khadr will be tried without any specialist juvenile judge, despite the trial focusing on his actions and words between the ages of ten (the age he is alleged to have been forced to join al-Qaeda) and 15. Indeed, the Government contends that the commissions could apply the death penalty against juveniles, though it has just chosen not to in Khadr’s case. The juvenile death penalty has been abolished in the United States.

These fundamental problems have emerged in the first two, supposedly simple, cases. Now the US is attempting to use this ad hoc system of justice to prosecute those accused of planning and executing the September 11 attacks and other major crimes. Among a multitude of issues, the commissions will need to address whether evidence obtained through coercive interrogation — including torture — can be admitted.

The issue of criminal trials is, of course, separate from the legality of the detention of the 275 people who remain incarcerated at Guantanamo. Until this month the number of Guantanamo detainees charged with criminal offences was precisely three. (The third person charged, Mohammed Jawad, has not yet had a hearing.)

Only one prisoner, David Hicks, has been convicted. He agreed to a guilty plea after nearly six years of detention allowing him to return home to Australia and serve a nine-month prison sentence.

For the criminal cases, there remains a relatively simple solution. Rather than continue to construct a new system of justice, they should be transferred to US federal courts. Around the world ordinary civilian courts deal with the most complex of terrorism cases, where judges can draw on years of precedent to sort out basic issues such as jurisdiction and access to evidence. Sticking with the military commissions means that the United States risks having its own system of justice being put on trial even as it pursues justice for the terrible crimes of September 11, 2001.

The author is senior legal adviser at Human Rights Watch

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Cognescenti
02-18-2008, 04:11 PM
Clive has serious agenda. He is no neutral fact finder. Rather than simply make that claim, allow me to demonstrate.

"Signs around the base warn that anyone harming the rare iguanas found here faces a $10,000 (£5,000) fine. There are no such signs concerning the protection of the detainees."

Oh please. What a load of crap. And this in the second paragraph?

"The base is much larger than I expected, with McDonald's, Starbucks and other amenities to make it feel like home for the military personnel."

A gentle rub on the rubes.

"Six years after the first detainees were brought to Guantanamo, there has still not been a single trial."

Deliberate obfuscation. Never mind that over 3 hundred have already been released after host goverments agreed to accept them or evidence proved insufficient. The Australian Talib was prosecuted. There was no "trial" as he accepted a plea bargain. Nice try Clive. Also, "pretrial hearings" are part of the skirmishing of the defence and prosecution. This is what happens when a defendant is vigorously defended, Clive baby. The defence does not permit the trial to go forward until they have the most favorable circumstance for their client. Clive knows this, but to disclose it is to undercuts his purpose...which is, of course, to find the process deficient, whether it is or not.

"Indeed, the Government contends that the commissions could apply the death penalty against juveniles, though it has just chosen not to in Khadr’s case. The juvenile death penalty has been abolished in the United States."

Yeah, so? You just said it yourself Clive. They are not bringing capital charges. He is complaining abotu the punishment when there is no conviction and no sentence handed down yet. What **** ****.

"Among a multitude of issues, the commissions will need to address whether evidence obtained through coercive interrogation — including torture — can be admitted."

More strawman **** ****. The Commission will only need to address that issue if the Prosecution attempts to admit such evidence. Of course, the implication is that such "confessions" are par for the course in trials under the UCMJ...they aren't and Clive knows it.

No US Prosecutor is going to bring evidence of some battlefield interrogation by the Northern Alliance or the Pakistani secret service....where real torture can be found. Clive is trying to pad his resume here.

"For the criminal cases, there remains a relatively simple solution. Rather than continue to construct a new system of justice, they should be transferred to US federal courts."

Phht! Is he kidding? Relativley simple? Did anyone watch the Moussaoui trial? Ask yourself why Clive is not somewhere where systematic, politically motivated denial of rights is occuring on a daily basis on a much greater scale...like about 1/3 of Africa or China for eg. I will tell you why, because they wouldn't let his arrogant butt in the door.
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Heera Singh
02-18-2008, 06:12 PM
apparently democrats (specifically obama) say that they will get out of there if they are elected...
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CaptlistAtheist
02-21-2008, 02:42 AM
Per the title of this thread, the answer is a resounding "no".

I'm as disgusted by miscarriages of justice done under the veil of secrecy in this country as I am by miscarriages of justice like stoning adulterers. There can be no justice if the trials go as secret military tribunals because in the end essentially the executive branch of the government is usurping the roles of the judicial branch of the government by determining themselves who goes to the American judicial system and the military tribunal system.

The fact that we keep information from the defendants is eerily reminscent of how some Islamic countries mandated that a female rape victim must have four male witnesses state that the woman was raped. It makes it impossible for innocent people to defend themselves. I'm not saying the people being held at Guantanamo are on the whole innocents, far from it, but there are definitely a few people there who've been rounded up simply because some a-hole in Afghanistan said "this guy's Taliban/al-Qaeda" to settle an old score.
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crayon
02-21-2008, 11:40 AM
Not to stray from the topic, but to capitalistathiest:

"Q:If a woman is raped, does she have to bring up 4 witnesses to get the rapist convicted
A:This is a common myth about Islamic criminal law. Rather, the four witness requirement applies only to the prescribed hadd punishment (which in the case of a married person could be death and for the non-married, 100 lashes). [Marghinani, Hidaya] This punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.

As the classical and contemporary jurists (such as Mufti Taqi Usmani) have made clear, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments. These discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine."

source

Those islamic countries do not abide by islamic law.

edit-a more descriptive link
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Roasted Cashew
02-25-2008, 05:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CaptlistAtheist
Per the title of this thread, the answer is a resounding "no".

I'm as disgusted by miscarriages of justice done under the veil of secrecy in this country as I am by miscarriages of justice like stoning adulterers. There can be no justice if the trials go as secret military tribunals because in the end essentially the executive branch of the government is usurping the roles of the judicial branch of the government by determining themselves who goes to the American judicial system and the military tribunal system.

The fact that we keep information from the defendants is eerily reminscent of how some Islamic countries mandated that a female rape victim must have four male witnesses state that the woman was raped. It makes it impossible for innocent people to defend themselves. I'm not saying the people being held at Guantanamo are on the whole innocents, far from it, but there are definitely a few people there who've been rounded up simply because some a-hole in Afghanistan said "this guy's Taliban/al-Qaeda" to settle an old score.
I think "crayon" gave you a good and precise answer on that misconceptions of yours.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 11:35 AM
Innocent Palestinians detained in jails in Isreal. Innocent Sikhs detained in jails in India. USA detain some innocent people. This just seems like it's the way to do things sadly. The ruined world we live in!
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