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AntiKarateKid
02-18-2008, 08:51 PM
Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, "Please read this." And he will say, "I cannot read."

Can any brother or sister tell me what the confusion is among Christians about this verse? It seems that it is the be all to end all verse that predicts the Prophet ( pbuh). But if people claim that this is a verse about some false prophet then why does Isaiah 18 say:

In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll,
and out of gloom and darkness
the eyes of the blind will see.


Surely a " false prophet" would not bring people out of the darkness?
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rabarbara2008
02-19-2008, 02:20 PM
I don't know the answer to this brother, but I hope someone will help you as I am curious too. good question!
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Whatsthepoint
02-19-2008, 02:37 PM
Be stunned and amazed,
blind yourselves and be sightless;
be drunk, but not from wine,
stagger, but not from beer.
The LORD has brought over you a deep sleep:
He has sealed your eyes (the prophets
he has covered your heads (the seers).
For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read, and say to him, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I can't; it is sealed."
Or if you give the scroll to someone who cannot read, and say, "Read this, please," he will answer, "I don't know how to read."
I'm not a Christian but I don't think the passage speaks of a prophet, it talks about the blindness of God's people, the general disability to understand his word etc, that, as described in the verses 18+, will eventually disappear.
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Keltoi
02-19-2008, 03:02 PM
First of all, you have to understand the context, which is the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem.

God promised the House of Israel that He would deliver them from impending destruction...

6 You shall be visited by the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and a devouring flame fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against and distress Ariel shall be like a night vision in a dream, even all that fight against her and her fortresses.

8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreams, and, behold, he eats; but he awakes, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreams, and, behold, he drinks; but he awakes, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul is yearning: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.

9. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry out, and say: they are drunk, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the LORD has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes the prophets, and your leaders the seers, has he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become to you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I cannot, for it is sealed: 12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he says, I am not learned.

So what is being said here is that this miracle from God, the protection of Jerusalem, will confuse and befuddle the enemies of Israel. However, the faithful are also confused and befuddled, because they give lip service to God while their hearts are far from Him.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

15 Woe to them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who sees us? and who knows us? 16 Surely your turning things upside down shall be likened to the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? 17. Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? 18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness. 19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel. 20 For the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off: 21 Those who make man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him who rightly reproves in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught. 22 Therefore thus says the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. 23 But when he sees his children, the work of my hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. 24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

These verses are stating that the miracle that God performed in defense of Jerusalem will cause the faithful to seek more understanding of God, and even the doubters will come to faith and the knowledge of doctrine.

So, in context, these verses are understood much more easily than looking at one or two passages and forming a conclusion based on that.
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AntiKarateKid
02-19-2008, 09:16 PM
"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Alak(96):1-5


The actual word angel Gabriel used to address Muhammad (pbuh) was the Arabic word "Iqra." It is derived from the Arabic root word "qara". However, if we were to go back to the original Hebrew form of the verses of Isaiah 29:11, we would find that the actual word which is translated into English as "Read this [I pray thee]" is the Hebrew word qara', {kaw-raw'}. Is it not an amazing coincidence that the Hebrew text used not only a word with the same meaning, but the exact same word itself ?



Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.



"A Book whereof the verses are explained in detail; a Qur'an in Arabic for people who have knowledge"

The noble Qur'an, Fussilat(41):3



"Had We made this as a Qur'an (in a language) other than Arabic, they would have said: 'Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! An Arab and non Arabic?' Say: 'It is a Guide and a Healing for those who believe; and for those who disbelieve, there is a heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it is a blindness upon them: They are as those who are called from a place far distant (so they neither hear nor understand)'"

The noble Qur'an, Fussilat(41):44


Indeed, the Qur'an was revealed to a man who could neither read nor write so that it might be apparent to mankind that he could not have received it from the writings of man, but only from God Almighty.



"Neither did you (O Muhammad) read any book before it, nor did you write any book with your right [hand]. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted Nay, it is but clear signs in the breasts of those endowed with knowledge: and none but the unjust reject Our signs."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Ankaboot(29):48-49.



As we see in the verses of Isaiah you presented, by the time Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received this book from God, mankind will have been reduced to worshipping God in words alone, while their hearts shall be far removed from true belief. They will have forsaken the true belief in God in favor of "the precept of men" (the laws of men). We have already seen the confirmation of this in chapter one where we learned how "St. Paul" managed to totally replace the message of Jesus (pbuh) with his own message, and how the later followers of Paul believed that they were justified in using force to get the first Christians to accept their gospels. We also saw how they burned Gospels that were accepted as authentic in the first centuries CE, and killed all Christians who did not "convert." Finally, we also saw how St. Paul managed to reduce the message of Jesus (pbuh) to mere "words" of "faith" with no concrete actions or commandments required of them (i.e. Romans 3:28).



Verse 14 now goes on to explain how when mankind accepts this situation, then the wisdom of the wise men shall perish and all that shall be left is mankind's corruption. Once again, we have seen this in chapter one, where we learned the historical details of how the followers of Jesus (pbuh) and the apostles were murdered and their books destroyed.



This is indeed the same situation described by Muhammad (pbuh) in one of his sayings. In Sahih Al-Bukhari we read that Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al-'As said:

"I heard Allah's Apostle (pbuh) saying, 'Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of them remain, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray.'"



In verse 15, we are told that there will remain among those corrupt individuals those who shall know the truth but shall strive to hide it from becoming known. Once again, we have seen this in chapters, one, and two. For more, see chapter 7. Once again, when the Qur'an was revealed, it confirmed this situation, we read:



"Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognize (this prophet) as they recognize their sons. But lo! a party of them conceal the truth which they themselves know."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Baqara(2):14



"And whether you hide your word or publish it, He certainly has (full) knowledge, of the secrets of (all) hearts."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Mulk(67):13



Verses 16 goes on to tell us how this treachery, concealment of the truth, and "overturning" of verses, laws, and obligations shall be exposed, and the wicked shall be held accountable for their deeds. Yet again, in the Qur'an we read:



"That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they used to do"

The noble Qur'an, Ya-seen(36):65



"And (remember) the day that the enemies of Allah shall be gathered to the Fire so that they will (all) be collected there. Till, when they reach it, their hearing and their eyes and their skins will testify against them as to what they used to do. And they will say to their skins 'Why did you testify against us?' They will say: 'Allah has caused us to speak, [for He is] the One who caused all things [which He willed] to speak, and He created you the first time, and unto Him you are returned".

The noble Qur'an, Fussilat(41):19-21.



"O People of the Scripture! Now has Our messenger come unto you, revealing to you much of that which you used to hide in the Scripture, and forgiving much. Now has come unto you light from Allah and plain Scripture,"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):15



"They did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did God send down to man [by way of revelation]" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But you make it into [separate] sheets for show, while you conceal much [of its contents]: and [by which] you were taught that which you knew not yourselves nor [did] your fathers [know it]?." Say: 'Allah [sent it down]': Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling."

The noble Qur'an, Al-An'am(6):91



Finally, we read in Isaiah 18 that when this final message is revealed to this "unlettered" prophet, those who have been lost in darkness and ignorance through the work of the corrupt shall be brought out of their ignorance and their darkness and shall be returned to the true message of God.



"Wherewith God guides all those who seek His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He brings them out of darkness unto light by His decree and guides them unto a straight path."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):16



"And that those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from thy Lord, so that they may believe therein and their hearts may submit humbly unto Him. Lo! Allah verily is guiding those who believe unto a right path."

The noble Qur'an, Al-Hajj (22):54


On the contratry, this argument is presented by using all the lines and not taking a few out of context as you must do to claim otherwise. You have to look deeper, since when can you skim an ancient religious text people???
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Keltoi
02-19-2008, 09:48 PM
I'm sorry to say that your understanding of these verses are simply incorrect. I cited nearly the full chapter, and nothing in these verses is referring to a future prophet. It is about the Siege of Jerusalem.
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john316
02-24-2008, 01:11 AM
I have a quick question what were the angel's exact first words to the prophet?
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