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islamirama
02-19-2008, 12:18 AM
Kosovars Want Muslim Recognition, Help

By Hany Salah, IOL Correspondent
Image

"We call on the Muslim world to recognize the nascent state of Kosovo," Bajgora told IOL
CAIRO — The Albanian Muslim majority in newly-independent Kosovo is appealing for swift recognition from Muslim countries as well as assistance to help sustain their new state.

"We call on the Muslim world to recognize the nascent state of Kosovo," Sabri Bajgora, the chief imam at the Islamic Sheikhdom of Kosovo, told IslamOnline.net over the phone.

Prime Minister Hashim Thaci declared the independence of Kosovo on Sunday, February 17, vowing the new state will be a democratic society that respects human dignity.

The announcement was instantly marked by fanfare.

Hundreds of thousands of flag-waving Kosovars, many returned from overseas for the occasion, poured into the snow-blanketed streets of the capital Pristina to celebrate the birth of their independent state.

Firecrackers went off sporadically, competing with folk music blaring from loudspeakers outside CD shops.


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Many believe the happiness would be completed with international, particularly Muslim, recognition of Europe's newest state and world's 193rd.

"We are in urgent need of political support to preserve our independence," said imam Bajgora.

Abdullah Klinako, the leader of the Justice Party of Kosovo's youth wing, agreed.

"We need Muslim assistance to join international organizations such as the United Nations."

The US and major European powers had been expected to give swift diplomatic recognition, but EU foreign ministers are still wrangling over how to react.

At an emergency session of the UN Security Council on Sunday, Western powers resisted a bid by Serbia's ally Russia to block the independence.

Kosovo, where nearly two million Muslim Albanians make up more than 95 percent of the population, has been run by the UN since a 1999 NATO campaign ended ethnic cleansing by Serbian troops.

Helping Hand

The survival of the world's newest country – small, landlocked and economically dependent on others - hinges very much on its friends.

Aware of the fact, Kosovars are hoping fellow Muslims, especially wealthy countries, will extend a helping hand.

"We need Muslim economic support to develop our new state in all fields," said imam Bajgora.

"We need Muslim investments to create new job opportunities for young Kosovars," agreed Agron Hoxha, the owner of an internet café.

Landlocked and poor apart from mineral deposits, some 45 percent of the population subsists below the poverty line of 1.5 euros a day.

Half the workforce is in formal employment, with the rest either long-term unemployed or working unofficially.

Some 30,000 young people enter the job market every year, five times the number Kosovo businesses can absorb.

The road and rail network was neglected in Yugoslav times, fell into a total state of disrepair during the 1990s, and was partly destroyed in the 1998-99 war.

Luljeta Selim, the chairwoman of Jeta Ne Kasterjot foundation, hopes Muslims would help thousands of women who were systematically raped by Serb troops during the war.

"Kosovo also needs Muslim aid for thousands of orphans who lost their parents during the war."


http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout

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Muezzin
02-19-2008, 09:41 AM
Housekeeping - the link is broken, probably because the forum software has automatically shortened it. If you link it with tags like so, it should work all right.
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guyabano
02-19-2008, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
...competing with folk music blaring from loudspeakers outside CD shops.
Music ? in Islam? haraam, no?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
And the majority drink beer/wine & eat pork! - Are they really Muslims?? :hmm:
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Trumble
02-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
And the majority drink beer/wine & eat pork! - Are they really Muslims?? :hmm:

In the context of recognising the independence of the new state, does that matter one way or the other?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
In the context of recognising the independence of the new state, does that matter one way or the other?
I'm in two minds about the status, as they do already have Albania. And the Serbs have a right over their own lands. But I'm not going to argue over it, because I'm In two minds as I say.


BTW - If they are Muslims, they should abide the Islamic way.
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Roasted Cashew
02-19-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
I am not sure what is the position of seniors in this board here but some scholars believe Music with good lyrics is permissible. Here:

Edited from:
http://www.islamawareness.net/Music/music_fatwa005.html

Among the entertainments, which may comfort the soul, please the heart, and refresh the ear is singing.
Islam permits singing under the condition that it is not in any way obscene or harmful to Islamic morals. There is no harm in its being accompanied by music, which is not exciting. In order to create an atmosphere of joy and happiness, singing is recommended on festive occasions such as the days of 'Eid, weddings and wedding feasts, births, 'aqiqat (the celebration of the birth of a baby by the slaughter of sheep), and on the return of a traveler.

It is reported that many Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them) as well as second-generation Muslim scholars used to listen to singing and did not see anything wrong with it. As for the ahadith, which have been reported against singing, they are all weak and have been shown by researchers to be unsound.
The jurist Abu Bakr al-'Arabi says, "No sound hadith is available concerning the prohibition of singing," while Ibn Hazm says, "All that is reported on this subject is false and fabricated "
However, since singing is in many cases associated with drinking parties and nightclubs, many scholars have declared it to be haram or at least makruh. They state that singing constitutes that kind of idle talk which is mentioned in the ayah, And among the people is the one who buys idle talk (at the expense of his soul) in order to lead (people) astray from the path of Allah without knowledge, holding it in mockery; for such there will be a humiliating punishment. (31:6) Says Ibn Hazm: This verse condemns a particular behavior, that of doing something to mock the path of Allah. Anyone who does this is an unbeliever; if he even should buy a copy of the Qur'an, doing so in order to make it the object of his mockery and thereby leading people astray, he would be an unbeliever. It is this type of behavior, which is condemned by Allah and not the idle talk in which one may indulge for mere relaxation, without intending to lead people astray from the path of Allah.
Ibn Hazm also refutes the argument of those who say that since singing is not of "the truth" it must be of "error," referring to the verse, "And what is beyond the truth except error?" (10:32). He comments, The Messenger of Allah (peace be on him) said, 'Deeds will be judged according to intentions, and everyone will get what he intended.' (Reported by al-Bukhari and Muslim.) Accordingly, the one who listens to singing with the intention of using it in support of a sin is a sinner, and this holds true of anything other than singing (as well), while one who listens to singing with the intention of refreshing his soul in order to gain strength to do his duty toward Allah Ta'ala and to do good deeds, is a good and obedient servant of Allah, and his action is of the truth. And he who listens to singing intending neither obedience nor disobedience is doing something neutral and harmless, which is similar to going to the park and walking around, standing by a window and looking at the sky, wearing blue or green cloths, and so on.
However, there are some limitations to be observed in the matter of singing:

* 1. The subject matter of songs should not be against the teachings of Islam. For example, if the song is in praise of wine, and it invites people to drink, singing or listening to it is haram.
* 2. Although the subject matter itself may not be against the Islamic teachings, the manner of singing may render it haram; this would be the case, for example, if suggestive sexual movement accompanied the singing.
* 3. Islam fights against excess and extravagance in anything, even in worship; how, then, can it tolerate excessive involvement with entertainment? Too much time should not be wasted in such activities; after all, what is time but life itself? One cannot dispute the fact that spending time in permissible activities consumes time, which ought to be resaved for carrying out religious obligations and doing good deeds. It is aptly said, "There is no excess except at the expense of a neglected duty."
* 4. Each individual is the best judge of himself. If a certain type of singing arouses one's passions, leads him towards sin, excites the animal instincts, and dulls spirituality, he must avoid it, thus closing the door to temptations.
* 5. There is unanimous agreement that if singing is done in conjunction with haram activities—for example, at a drinking party, or if it is mixed with obscenity and sin—it is haram.
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Roasted Cashew
02-19-2008, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
And the majority drink beer/wine & eat pork! - Are they really Muslims?? :hmm:
Majority? Any prove for that or is that a blatant accusation and generalization? Of course you are right when you say they should abide by the Islamic way. But if a Muslim eats pork and drinks wine, he/she is a committing a sin and such Muslim who often sin are known as "Fasiq" if not mistaken. Yet, they would be still classified as Muslims but of course non-practicing ones. God will deal with them on Judgment Day.

You speak as if all Sikhs are practicing and devout.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
Majority? Any prove for that or is that a blatant accusation and generalization? Of course you are right when you say they should abide by the Islamic way. But if a Muslim eats pork and drinks wine, he/she is a committing a sin and such Muslim who often sin are known as "Fasiq" if not mistaken. Yet, they would be still classified as Muslims but of course non-practicing ones. God will deal with them on Judgment Day.

You speak as if all Sikhs are practicing and devout.
Hey don't rant mate! I was saying something in favour of Islam! - No no tall Sikhs are devout :mmokay:
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Whatsthepoint
02-19-2008, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
Majority? Any prove for that or is that a blatant accusation and generalization? Of course you are right when you say they should abide by the Islamic way. But if a Muslim eats pork and drinks wine, he/she is a committing a sin and such Muslim who often sin are known as "Fasiq" if not mistaken. Yet, they would be still classified as Muslims but of course non-practicing ones. God will deal with them on Judgment Day.

You speak as if all Sikhs are practicing and devout.
Can you prove the majority of world's muslims are actual muslims?
I am sure the majority of Kosovars listen to music, I am not that sure about alcohol. As for pork, I don't think it's widely consumed.
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Roasted Cashew
02-19-2008, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Can you prove the majority of world's muslims are actual muslims?
I am sure the majority of Kosovars listen to music, I am not that sure about alcohol. As for pork, I don't think it's widely consumed.
What do actual Muslims mean?? Can you prove the majority of world's agnostics are actual agnostics? If you can't then you shouldn't make blatant assumptions and generalizations. Though, I would still like to know what do actual Muslims mean??
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Cognescenti
02-19-2008, 03:56 PM
I may have missed something. There seems to be no thank you to the United States for saving them from the Serbs.

Oh well.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I may have missed something. There seems to be no thank you to the United States for saving them from the Serbs.

Oh well.
You want GRATITUDE?? :D

What was the real motive behind it is the question that I want to ask lol
:p
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Trumble
02-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You want GRATITUDE?? :D

What was the real motive behind it is the question that I want to ask lol
:p
Oddly enough, it was prevention of genocide. If it makes you feel any better there was probably something of a guilt trip there, particularly on the part of the US, for having sat and done nothing about the genocide in Rwanda.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Oddly enough, it was prevention of genocide. If it makes you feel any better there was probably something of a guilt trip there, particularly on the part of the US, for having sat and done nothing about the genocide in Rwanda.
Sudan? Zimbabwe?

I'll give credit where due. Well done to the UK & USA
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 04:56 PM
Though, It'll lead to war. Read the news, Serbs won't let anyone take their lands. Would you?
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Whatsthepoint
02-19-2008, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
What do actual Muslims mean?? Can you prove the majority of world's agnostics are actual agnostics? If you can't then you shouldn't make blatant assumptions and generalizations. Though, I would still like to know what do actual Muslims mean??
Practicing muslims, muslims who follow the Quran and the Sunnah, to an extent that they do not listen to music, do not drink drink etc.
I'd say the majority of the world's agnostics are agnostics as a person is not born an agnostic but becomes one, converts/reverts if you will.
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Whatsthepoint
02-19-2008, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Though, It'll lead to war. Read the news, Serbs won't let anyone take their lands. Would you?
It won't lead to war. It's been a couple of days since Kosovo declared independence, Serbs are a bit angry and excited, it will all pass away quite soon, I reckon...
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 06:55 PM
^^^ I hope so, but I really doubt it. Serbs are stubborn people!
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Whatsthepoint
02-19-2008, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
^^^ I hope so, but I really doubt it. Serbs are stubborn people!
Well, I don't blame them. I just hope they're not a stuborn as the Palestinians.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-19-2008, 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, I don't blame them. I just hope they're not a stuborn as the Palestinians.
Yup. Im not sure on this, it conflicts with what Sikhs want (Independence from India) yet, it's also taking somebody elses land, to accomodate more of the Albanians. (When they alread have Albania) I'm divided!!!
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Roasted Cashew
02-20-2008, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Practicing muslims, muslims who follow the Quran and the Sunnah, to an extent that they do not listen to music, do not drink drink etc.
I'd say the majority of the world's agnostics are agnostics as a person is not born an agnostic but becomes one, converts/reverts if you will.
Agnostics most probably raise their children as agnostics just as Muslims raise their kids as Muslims. All reverts/converts who did it sincerely are practicing Muslims I believe.

Next, I can't speak for the world but in my original birth place, Pakistan, Muslims are very devout. However, I would assume most people listen to music but as I said in one my earlier post not all scholars conclude that music to be haram/forbidden. As for alcohol, it's forbidden and therefore not even sold except to licensed dealers who can only sell to non-Muslims and can only be found in big cities. Gambling is also forbidden and no casinos can be found Mostly the societies are conservative. This would be also true for most of the Islamic Countries. I can't speak for the Muslims in non-Muslims countries.
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Whatsthepoint
02-20-2008, 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
Agnostics most probably raise their children as agnostics just as Muslims raise their kids as Muslims. All reverts/converts who did it sincerely are practicing Muslims I believe.

Next, I can't speak for the world but in my original birth place, Pakistan, Muslims are very devout. However, I would assume most people listen to music but as I said in one my earlier post not all scholars conclude that music to be haram/forbidden. As for alcohol, it's forbidden and therefore not even sold except to licensed dealers who can only sell to non-Muslims and can only be found in big cities. Gambling is also forbidden and no casinos can be found Mostly the societies are conservative. This would be also true for most of the Islamic Countries. I can't speak for the Muslims in non-Muslims countries.
Well, Kosovans listen all kinds of music (which the majority of scholars conclude is haraam), there are no laws banning alcohol or pork, very few women wear the hijab, the mosque attendance is low etc. Besides, the Kosovans are very nationalistic, which I gather is also haraam.
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islamirama
02-21-2008, 01:48 AM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I may have missed something. There seems to be no thank you to the United States for saving them from the Serbs.

Oh well.
yea, thank you US and UN and their allies. Thank you for standing by and watching serbian Christians commit genocide and mass rape of Albanians like they did of kosovo. It wasn't until Mujahideen went in to kick some serb butt that the UN/US and their cronies decided to intervene in the name of "helping" .
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The_Prince
02-21-2008, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, Kosovans listen all kinds of music (which the majority of scholars conclude is haraam), there are no laws banning alcohol or pork, very few women wear the hijab, the mosque attendance is low etc. Besides, the Kosovans are very nationalistic, which I gather is also haraam.
just because ppl commit haram and sinful acts does not take them outside the fold of Islam....so i really dont see any points in this non stop garbage barrage of yours of how sinful these kosovans are, it doesnt make them non-Muslim but simply bad Muslim.

the prophet even said a Muslim who has true faith will go to heaven no matter what his sin is, and they asked EVEN IF HE DRINKS ALCOHOL? he said yes, and they asked EVEN IF HE FORNICATES? he said yes.

so now whats your point? oh you have none!
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Roasted Cashew
02-21-2008, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
just because ppl commit haram and sinful acts does not take them outside the fold of Islam....so i really dont see any points in this non stop garbage barrage of yours of how sinful these kosovans are, it doesnt make them non-Muslim but simply bad Muslim.

the prophet even said a Muslim who has true faith will go to heaven no matter what his sin is, and they asked EVEN IF HE DRINKS ALCOHOL? he said yes, and they asked EVEN IF HE FORNICATES? he said yes.

so now whats your point? oh you have none!
On the Judgment Day, If a believer's(Muslims) sins are more than his/her deeds she/he will enter hell but not for eternity. He/she will serve for a time appointed and then will be entered in Heaven.
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abdil han
02-21-2008, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, I don't blame them. I just hope they're not a stuborn as the Palestinians.
im not surprised,
nobody blamed them until they killed,massacred hundreds of thousands of muslims in 1990s in the middle of ''western-democratic-developed'' europe...

sorry but
u can not understand the muslims in this sight of mind...
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Whatsthepoint
02-21-2008, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by abdil han
im not surprised,
nobody blamed them until they killed,massacred hundreds of thousands of muslims in 1990s in the middle of ''western-democratic-developed'' europe...

sorry but
u can not understand the muslims in this sight of mind...
They did not killed houndreds of thousands of muslims, and anyway, they did most of their killing in Bosnia, not in Kosovo.
That's right, I can't.
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Keltoi
02-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
yea, thank you US and UN and their allies. Thank you for standing by and watching serbian Christians commit genocide and mass rape of Albanians like they did of kosovo. It wasn't until Mujahideen went in to kick some serb butt that the UN/US and their cronies decided to intervene in the name of "helping" .
Hmmm...must of have missed all those "mujahideen" kicking Serb butt. That must be like that big Hezbollah victory awhile back.
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Trumble
02-22-2008, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
yea, thank you US and UN and their allies. Thank you for standing by and watching serbian Christians commit genocide and mass rape of Albanians like they did of kosovo. It wasn't until Mujahideen went in to kick some serb butt that the UN/US and their cronies decided to intervene in the name of "helping" .
More fantasy history from the master....... :rollseyes You don't actually believe that rubbish do you?
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Cognescenti
02-23-2008, 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
yea, thank you US and UN and their allies. Thank you for standing by and watching serbian Christians commit genocide and mass rape of Albanians like they did of kosovo. It wasn't until Mujahideen went in to kick some serb butt that the UN/US and their cronies decided to intervene in the name of "helping" .
The Albanians are one of the ethnic groups of Kosovo? What are you on about?

They actually outnumber the Serbs, but don't let the real world gt in the way.:okay:

BTW..there is no such thing as "cronieism" between the US and the UN. Americans don't trust the UN any moe than you do.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-23-2008, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
yea, thank you US and UN and their allies. Thank you for standing by and watching serbian Christians commit genocide and mass rape of Albanians like they did of kosovo. It wasn't until Mujahideen went in to kick some serb butt that the UN/US and their cronies decided to intervene in the name of "helping" .
And what the Albanians did whilst NATO was there was genocide too! - Destroyed Churches, something Hitler wasn't able to do. Drove away Serbs, only about 150.000 remain in Kosovo. Bad as each other!
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north_malaysian
02-23-2008, 10:23 AM
MALAYSIA RECOGNISES KOSOVA

KENYATAAN AKHBAR
PERISYTIHARAN KEMERDEKAAN KOSOVO
Malaysia mengalu-alukan kemerdekaan Kosovo yang telah diisytiharkan oleh Perdana Menteri Hashim Thaci pada 17 Februari 2008. Semenjak Julai 1999, Kosovo adalah di bawah pentadbiran pihak United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) berikutan Resolusi 1244 Pertubuhan Bangsa-bangsa Bersatu (PBB).

Malaysia berharap perisytiharan kemerdekaan ini memenuhi aspirasi rakyat Kosovo dalam menentukan masa depan Kosovo dan menjamin hak semua rakyat untuk hidup dalam keadaan aman, bebas dan stabil. Dalam usaha masyarakat antarabangsa mencari jalan penyelesaian kepada isu Kosovo, Malaysia menyeru supaya semua pihak terus bekerjasama untuk menjamin kedamaian dan kestabilan rantau Balkan.

Malaysia mempunyai sebuah Pejabat Perhubungan Malaysia di Pristina, Kosovo yang ditauliahkan kepada (UNMIK) semenjak tahun 2000. Peranan utama pejabat tersebut ialah menyalur dan mengawal selia bantuan daripada Malaysia kepada Kosovo dan perantara antara Kerajaan Malaysia dengan UNMIK. Pejabat Perhubungan Malaysia ini akan ditukar status apabila tiba masanya. Sementara itu, Wakil Malaysia di Kosovo akan terus menjalankan tugas sebagai Kuasausaha Sementara.


Kementerian Luar Negeri, Malaysia
20 Februari 2008

Source: http://www.kln.gov.my/?m_id=26&vid=607
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north_malaysian
02-23-2008, 10:35 AM
Muslim countries that recognise Kosova (Date of recognition):

1) Afghanistan (18.02.2008)
2) Albania (18.02.2008)
3) Turkey (18.02.2008)
4) Senegal (19.02.2008)
5) Malaysia (20.02.2008)

Muslim countries that would not recognise Kosova:

1) Azerbaijan
2) Kazakhstan
3) Kyrgyzstan
4) Tajikistan

Undecided Muslim nations:

1) Bangladesh
2) Bosnia-Herzegovina
3) Burkina Faso
4) Egypt
5) Indonesia
6) Iraq
7) Jordan
8) Kuwait
9) Libya
10) Uzbekistan

Muslim Organisations Supporting Kosova's Independence:

1) Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC)
2) Chechen Republic of Ichkeria
3) Mejlis of Crimean Tatar People

Muslim Organisation Against Kosova's Independence:

1) Islamic Community of Serbia

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...oreign_Affairs
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Omar_Mukhtar
02-23-2008, 12:33 PM
The Western Media didn't report or condemn attacks against Serbs, in places they were driven out from. As for Kosovans being thankful, for sure they are thankful. This is the only Muslim state where Bush is welcomed like a king and the people wave their own flag as well as the American flag.


ps. there was no Mujahideen in Kosovo, but the secular K.L.A movement. The West intervened in Kosovo because they wanted extend the border of liberal Europe and diminish Russian-Serb influence. Also, Kosovo is heavily rich in resources, so you must understand the territorial squabble of that land! So you can think of this as the end product of Russia's decline as a an empire vis-a-vis Americans.....

There was Mujahideen in Bosnia, and the Mujahideen(outside volunteers) were probably one of the most decisive factors in coming to the aid of the Bosnians. The United Nations and others were sitting by whilst people were being massacred in their very own camps.
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