Hell and Heaven in Christianity

[KAding]

How widespread is the idea that there is indeed something like a 'hell' in Christian belief? Is it described in a gruesome manner in the bible for example, like it is in the Qu'ran? Or is there actually some debate on it's existence?

I'm asking because my sister, who has turned a Christian, does not seem to believe in hell as described in, for example, the Qu'ran. She seems to think it is all metaphorical. In fact, she claims that Christianity originally believed in reincarnation, but that that belief got corrupted over time.

That just doesn't correspond with the popular depiction of Christianity, so I was wondering if anyone heard about such beliefs within certain Christian denominations before?

Thanks :).

[glo]

Interesting thread, KAding. :)

I am sure there are others better qualified than me to answer your question, but here is my view off the top of my head.

As far as I remember the OT actually does not describe hell.
Jesus, however, is reported to refer to people as being separated and 'thrown into the fire' (Like the chaff is separated from the grain and thrown in the fire). There are also references to 'gnashing of teeth' - so it doesn't seem to be much of a fun place to be ...

I find the Islamic perception of hell and the detailed, graphic descriptions of punishments rather disturbing.

Interpretations of different Christian groups seems to range from 'brimstone and hellfire' to 'being eternally separated from God'.

If I get time I shall research this topic a little further, and I will let you know what I find ...
In the meantime I shall look forward to be views of other fellow Christians. :)

As for Christians believing in reincarnation, in the sense of being born again into another earthly life, that's completely news to me. Would be interesting to quiz your sister a bit more about that.

Peace

[Skillganon]

Their was an interesting detail discription in some early christian writing concerning hell.
If I can locate it I would post it.

Note: the writing is not part of the Bible even it maybe considered an apocrophya. So although it may not be considered evidence for the belief of christianity it may lend some credence to it. Never the less I consider what Glo posted to be enough evidence that hell is a place of torment and punishment.

[barney]

We have discussed it in some detail on the "Paradise...now what" thread that I set up.
Having said that, I can target it towards christian heaven and hell as well.

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[KAding]

Interesting thread, KAding. :)

I am sure there are others better qualified than me to answer your question, but here is my view off the top of my head.

As far as I remember the OT actually does not describe hell.
Jesus, however, is reported to refer to people as being separated and 'thrown into the fire' (Like the chaff is separated from the grain and thrown in the fire). There are also references to 'gnashing of teeth' - so it doesn't seem to be much of a fun place to be ...

I find the Islamic perception of hell and the detailed, graphic descriptions of punishments rather disturbing.

Interpretations of different Christian groups seems to range from 'brimstone and hellfire' to 'being eternally separated from God'.

If I get time I shall research this topic a little further, and I will let you know what I find ...
In the meantime I shall look forward to be views of other fellow Christians. :)

Thank you. So apparently it is a bit unclear how literal we have to take these references to eternal 'fire'. Nevertheless, some kind of punishment clearly awaits those who transgress.

As for Christians believing in reincarnation, in the sense of being born again into another earthly life, that's completely news to me. Would be interesting to quiz your sister a bit more about that.

Peace

Yes, it will be. I'll ask her about it a bit more next time. It was completely new to me as well. Her path to becoming a Christian is a bit odd though, having first been a Buddhist, which probably explains her beliefs on reincarnation.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

Hello.

I have found some of verses in the Bible. I am hope it is correct one.

A place of weeping and gnashing of teeth - And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 25:30).

A place of torments - "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23).

A place of Sorrows - "The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;" (2 Samuel 22:6).

A place of everlasting destruction - "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (II Thessalonians 1:9).

A place where men are tormented with fire and brimstone - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and wh*remongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8).

A place where fire is not quenched - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44).

A bottomless pit - "And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit" (Revelation 9:2).

A place of no rest - "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Revelation 14:11).

It is ultimately a lake of fire - "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Revelation 20:14).

A place of hopeless of unsatisfied desires - "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame " (Luke 16:24). The rich man wanted water but could not get any.

Please let me to know if any of those verses are incorrect.

[Keltoi]

I think it is fairly obvious that Hell is not a happy place to be. Verses that actually attempt to describe Hell aren't very numerous in the OT or the NT. As Glo mentioned, some take Hell to mean an eternal separation from God, and some believe in a literal lake of brimstone and fire where souls are "physically" punished. This literal lake of fire and brimstone played a major part in the Protestant tradition, especially with Puritans.

I suppose all that can be said for certain is that Hell in the Christian tradition is a bad place, with fire most often used to describe it. Hopefully I won't find out for certain what Hell is all about.

[barney]

I wonder if you can choose which bit you get to see.

Personally , im plumping for the lake of fire bit, cos that sounds really pretty.
My Brother is a flop-haired Emo Kid so he's more likely to go for the Place of Sorrows.

[------]

:salamext:

Hey glo

I find the Islamic perception of hell and the detailed, graphic descriptions of punishments rather disturbing.

This is what instills fear in us, and the desciptions and preceptions of Paradise in Islaam are what instills hope is us. That is what a believer in Islaam is made of :)

[MustafaMc]

Jesus, however, is reported to refer to people as being separated and 'thrown into the fire' (Like the chaff is separated from the grain and thrown in the fire). There are also references to 'gnashing of teeth' - so it doesn't seem to be much of a fun place to be ...

I find the Islamic perception of hell and the detailed, graphic descriptions of punishments rather disturbing.

Interpretations of different Christian groups seems to range from 'brimstone and hellfire' to 'being eternally separated from God'.

Having grown up in the "Bible Belt" as a Baptist, I have heard my fair share of fire-and-brimstone sermons. I remember reading as a pre-teen little pamphlets given out at a "tent-revival" with drawings of people in Hell. As a Muslim, my perception of Hell is generally the same, but the magnitude and the details of the torment are more graphically described in Islam.

Muslims fear the Wrath and Punishment of Allah, but we also hope in His Mercy and Forgiveness. We put our faith in His Mercy and trust in the promises for forgiveness that Allah made in the Qur'an to those who believe (Oneness of Allah, angels, prophets, books, resurrection/Judgment Day, preordainment) and do good works (pray, give charity, fast, etc.).

[*Hana*]

Brother MustafaMc has it exactly right.

Islam doesn't try to sugar coat Hell. It is described in full detail because that's the reality that we strive to avoid. Paradise is also described in full detail because that the reality we strive to obtain.

If you find the detailed descriptions disturbing...imagine the reality of being there.

For example: I can describe a spanking to my child in detail...but actually experiencing it would be far more scary and painful for him.

Hana

[glo]

Muslims fear the Wrath and Punishment of Allah, but we also hope in His Mercy and Forgiveness. We put our faith in His Mercy and trust in the promises for forgiveness that Allah made in the Qur'an to those who believe (Oneness of Allah, angels, prophets, books, resurrection/Judgment Day, preordainment) and do good works (pray, give charity, fast, etc.).

Greetings, Mustafa

I can think of three reasons why people (believers and unbelievers) may choose to do good deeds over bad ones:

• Because they feel it is humanly and morally the right thing to do (so because of some internal motivation).
• Because they desire praise/reward (external motivation).
• Because they want to avoid punishment (external motivation).

Do you think there is a hierarchy in which reasons for doing good are more 'honourable' than others?
Is doing good out of fear of punishment as meaningful as doing good just out of a loving, charitable heart?

Personally, I feel there is a difference ...

What do others think?
What does Islam teach?

Peace :)

[snakelegs]

glo,
interesting questions.
of course i am motivated internally (and selfishly) - when i do a good deed, it makes me feel good about myself and when i do something that hurts someone it makes me feel horrible.
since i run on internal motives, naturally, i think that's superior to external motives. :D
but maybe it does not matter? maybe it is the actions themselves that count, regardless of motivation?

[barney]

Greetings, Mustafa

I can think of three reasons why people (believers and unbelievers) may choose to do good deeds over bad ones:

• Because they feel it is humanly and morally the right thing to do (so because of some internal motivation).
• Because they desire praise/reward (external motivation).
• Because they want to avoid punishment (external motivation).

Do you think there is a hierarchy in which reasons for doing good are more 'honourable' than others?
Is doing good out of fear of punishment as meaningful as doing good just out of a loving, charitable heart?

Personally, I feel there is a difference ...

What do others think?
What does Islam teach?

Peace :)

That only works within a moral framework of what society you have at the time.
If i was to say to Most people in Wednesbury Birmingham, Theres a Witches convention happening at the NEC, can you pop down B&Q and get me 10000 firelighters, 700 bundles of rough sawn off-cut timber and twenty gallons of unleaded from Esso, they would report me to the police and i would quite clearly be morally wrong.
Let me pop through my time-portal device to Wednesbury in the year 1717.
i would get a rousing cheer and praise for my efforts. i wouldnt certainly speak out against the crowd, because , id be on the top of the pyre and I wouldnt be eating Parkin cake.

Let me Head over to Bergen Belsen for a bit. Say 1906.
"Hey jerrys, what say we round up 450,000 jews and gays and people who dont like the Kaiser and literally burn them to death after months of starvation and torture?" I'd not get any praise for that Idea would I.

Move forward 33 years and suddenly, i'm a jolly good chap.

In Ancient Persia, if i wanted to be Gay, id paint my nails, put on my black eyeliner and rouge my cheeks, Wearing my necklace and silk robes with pride, i wouldnt turn many heads.
In 2007AD in Persia, the State would give me a very tight necklace...very freaking tight...and my cheeks would be a blue colour from asphixiation. My head would turn, cos it would bounce around the floor.

Morals are variable. Slavery was good...now its bad. The bible approves of it....now it disapproves. Select a scripture for the times.

[islamirama]

Glo,

why do you not steal, kill, or do other bad stuff? Not looking at it religion wise, why don't you or any atheist or anyone else for that matter not do that? The reason is because of the repercussions of our actions. We know stealing is against the law and we will go to jail, we know murder will put us away a long long time. We know the punishments the law of the land for each crime and so we are deterred (most of us) from breaking the law. In the same sense, Divine law is no different. There is no metaphorical this or that. The hell is real and it's description is given very clearly as a warning and deterrence to us so we don't break that supreme law of the Creator. So one does not necessarily do good for fear of hell but rather does not do bad for fear of hell just as you wont' break the law for fear of jail. We need to know the punishments so we can't say "i didn't know".

Muslims don't need to be instilled with fear to do good. For us, everything is done for Allah. We do good to please Allah and we stay way from evil also to please Allah. We do good to earn reward and mercy of Allah and we stay way from bad so as not to get wrath, anger or displeasure of Allah. Everything we do in our lives whether for this world or religion or spiritual is for sake of Allah,that is why Islam is not just a religion but rather a way of life. Every breath we take is for sake of Allah.

[MustafaMc]

• Because they feel it is humanly and morally the right thing to do (so because of some internal motivation).
• Because they desire praise/reward (external motivation).
• Because they want to avoid punishment (external motivation).

Do you think there is a hierarchy in which reasons for doing good are more 'honourable' than others?
Is doing good out of fear of punishment as meaningful as doing good just out of a loving, charitable heart?

Greetings, Glo,

This is a good question and I assume that you posed it in reference to the thread title. As Islamirama pointed out, Muslims have another motivation, which is for the sake of Allah, or Feesabil'Allah. In Islam, the intention or motivation for doing or not doing a deed determines to a large extent the merit or demerit of the deed before Allah. Only Allah knows our inner intentions for performing good deeds. Good deeds include worship (prayer, fasting, paying poor due, etc), helping the needy (orphans, widows, invalids, etc), struggling in the way of Allah to oppose oppression, giving food or water to a needy animal, a kind word, a smile, etc, etc, etc.

From my human perspective the relative value of intentions are something like:

1) for the sake of Allah
2) because of the love or compassion that we have for the recipient
3) to counteract a sin committed previously to avert the Wrath of Allah
4) hoping for reward from Allah
5) for show to be praised by family, friends, peers

... and Allah knows best. What really matters is the value of the intention before Him.

[glo]

That only works within a moral framework of what society you have at the time.
Morals are variable. Slavery was good...now its bad. The bible approves of it....now it disapproves. Select a scripture for the times.

Hi Barney

And yet, during those times you describe, there were people who questioned the morals of the day.
My guess is that most of them were opposed, many of them died themselves ... but those who persevered were the ones who influenced the morals of society and caused change.

Were did those individuals get their 'different' moral values from?

Greetings, Glo,
As Islamirama pointed out, Muslims have another motivation, which is for the sake of Allah, or Feesabil'Allah.
1) for the sake of Allah
2) because of the love or compassion that we have for the recipient
3) to counteract a sin committed previously to avert the Wrath of Allah
4) hoping for reward from Allah
5) for show to be praised by family, friends, peers

... and Allah knows best. What really matters is the value of the intention before Him.

Greetungs, Mustafa

As a Christian I understand the sentiment of 'doing things to please God'. In fact, our whole life should be aimed at that purpose.
And yet, I struggle with the concept of 'doing things to gain God's reward' or 'doing things to avoid God's punishment'. Don't get me wrong, I understand those principles, and I am not saying they are wrong.

But in terms of living my life by them, they enter into my thinking very rarely.

My perception is better described like this:
I know that God loves me. I love God. Our relationship is defined by love.
My greatest desire is to please God - not so much so gain his reward, or to avoid his anger ... but to just please him and bring him joy!
That is my greatest motivator.

I can translate this to a human level, for demonstration.
I love to me nice to my husband, just to see him happy! He doesn't need to bring me flowers in return. Nor do I think 'Phew, perhaps he won't be angry now, when he realises that I scratched the car ...'
Rewards or anger don't really come into the equasion of treating my husband lovingly.

I'm not sure if I am making sense ... :)

Peace

[MustafaMc]

And yet, I struggle with the concept of 'doing things to gain God's reward' or 'doing things to avoid God's punishment'. Don't get me wrong, I understand those principles, and I am not saying they are wrong.

But in terms of living my life by them, they enter into my thinking very rarely.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. One way of looking at it is that it seems manipulative, shallow and childish to do things for a reward or to avoid a punishment. Yet, how many reach the level of love toward God that you speak of such that it is the primary motivational force and for those who do reach that level, how often do they achieve it.

To be honest with you, my primary motivation in practicing Islam is to avoid the Hellfire. Oh, Paradise will be great and beyond our wildest dreams, but I fear the punishment of the Hellfire. Unfortunately, sometimes I make mistakes and sin such that an observer would think that I don't fear the punishment. May Allah forgive me!

[MustafaMc]

There is a well known hadith where the angel Jibra'il questioned Prophet Muhammad (saaws) about several things - one of which was "perfection."

Then he (Jibra'il) further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?"
Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you."

My goal is to reach a point in my life where I achieve this level of perfection such that I worship Allah as though I see the Him, although I know that I can't see or fully comprehend Him during this life. Until then, the best that I can do is strive and to pray that I die not, but as one who has submitted his will to that of Allah.

[barney]

Glo,

why do you not steal, kill, or do other bad stuff? Not looking at it religion wise, why don't you or any atheist or anyone else for that matter not do that?

I agree totally.
Sincerely
Barney #2323551
Dartmore High Security Wing

[barney]

Glo:
You ask where people get their different Moral Values from?
Well from society. As a whole it reflects what people want.
The free spirit of the 60's, the greed of the 80's the Jingoism of the Victorians the "nuff resect" of the ninetys.

People within society will look for scripture to back their morals, and they will always find it.

Lets say that making jokes is a sin. Anyone who does this should be put to death.
All I have to do is wheel out the life of Elisha and i'm up and running.

[glo]

Glo:
You ask where people get their different Moral Values from?
Well from society. As a whole it reflects what people want.
The free spirit of the 60's, the greed of the 80's the Jingoism of the Victorians the "nuff resect" of the ninetys.

I think you misunderstood my question, Barney.

My question was, where do those people who oppose the morals of the society of their day, and who push to reform moral values get their values from?
The people who advocated against slavery, for example.
The ones who tried to fight the Nazi regime.
The ones who hid and protected 'witches'.

[barney]

ahh! Getcha now!

It comes from what i call "original Goodness" (Copyright Barneyism 2008).
This is the theory that within the human psyche their is a drive to form social groups in order to help each other. its why we dont all live in single bedroom houses and carry a AK74 shooting it at nearcomers. It's why we dont wee against the trunk of our garden trees to mark our territory.

Within this integral drive is a understanding of "sweet mercy! look at that poor freaking witch up on the bonfire there!...i wouldnt like that to be me"

I beleive this integral goodness was what fuelled jesus's message and the Grand wiccans message and ghandi's message and the Hippys message.
Within us all too is the need to compete, and this balances with Original goodness, (to use the concept of O.G, please make an easy payment of £3 to the bank of Barney, (i take paypal).
This need to compete manifests in Moses's message of "chosen people" in Thatchers Message of Yuppies and in Hitlers message of the Master-race.

I could ramble all night on this, but thats it in a nutshell.

[glo]

Could this "original Goodness" (Copyright Barneyism 2008) be divinely inspired?

"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

[snakelegs]

Could this "original Goodness" (Copyright Barneyism 2008) be divinely inspired?

i will change the term to "innate goodness" so i don't tread on copyright. :D
my answer is - yes, of course.

[barney]

Could this "original Goodness" (Copyright Barneyism 2008) be divinely inspired?

"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."

It's possible that a original creating force designed sentinant life.

Once life is sentinent we know that it has free will unless an external factor prevents this , like a hypnotist, and i could show that that involves free will too.
The free will simply has to be able to operate on flight or fight or it would cease to be a free willed being, since it would be extinct within generations.

Our advanced brains have taken this a step further. Chimps can pick the fleas off each other because its helpful as a species to help each other.
More evolved processing power and experience of previous generations all add to a constant evolving Original Goodness (Copyright Barnyism) .

After Rawanda, we said as a culture "never again" and so when Kosovo kicked off, we were in there. Humanity helping humanity.
After WW1 started over lack of trust and lack of ability to negotiate as a group we said "never again", so we tried the League of nations. Humanity helping humanity.

So O.G (C Barneyism 2008) stems from a natural state of survival and working out the best way to progress.

But we need a creating force.

This craeting force in my studies has nothing to do with beings called Yahweh or Allah or Jesus.

[Ghira]

Hi Barney


As a Christian I understand the sentiment of 'doing things to please God'. In fact, our whole life should be aimed at that purpose.
And yet, I struggle with the concept of 'doing things to gain God's reward' or 'doing things to avoid God's punishment'. Don't get me wrong, I understand those principles, and I am not saying they are wrong.

But in terms of living my life by them, they enter into my thinking very rarely.

My perception is better described like this:
I know that God loves me. I love God. Our relationship is defined by love.
My greatest desire is to please God - not so much so gain his reward, or to avoid his anger ... but to just please him and bring him joy!
That is my greatest motivator.

I can translate this to a human level, for demonstration.
I love to me nice to my husband, just to see him happy! He doesn't need to bring me flowers in return. Nor do I think 'Phew, perhaps he won't be angry now, when he realises that I scratched the car ...'
Rewards or anger don't really come into the equasion of treating my husband lovingly.

I'm not sure if I am making sense ... :)

Peace

Christians have this love thing mixed up. They understand God is love and God loves us!! Then again many Christians believe God has conditions on his love. Meaning God does not have unconditional love. I think you have to search what are the conditions to attain his pleasure/love. I am sure It is not simply to say a statement that He killed his only begotten son for the sin of man. If that is the case, then according to Christians we have a God who has a strange condition to attain his pleasure/love. A confusing statement that God, part man, part God, part holy ghost has died for the sins of man.

God does not need our righteous actions, and God is not need of our love for Him. It works the other way around, God wants you to do good for your own well-being. We need Him and He needs no one. One of the names of God in Islam is self-sufficient.

Hell and Heaven are part of way to show God showing man His ultimate mercy and grueling punishment. God with His wisdom knows how the human mind works and what gets them thinking and be in the right path. This is one way. Of course, some say I will do this act purely for the sake of God's pleasure. I commend that but most of us understand the truth of this temporary life and the eternity of hereafter. The only way we can be saved from hell-fire is by the mercy of God, not just by our actions. Our actions will not suffice but the mercy of God will. We must attain that mercy by gaining the pleasure of God in the way that He and His Messenger has prescribed for us.

God does love His creation and wants to guide them to his everlasting paradise. God is also is able to punish those who break disobey Him, worship others beside him by sending to the pits of hell. Most definitely we believe His Mercy prevails over His wrath.