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Na7lah
04-06-2008, 12:24 AM
One sis asked me to pass this around :)

This is for Muslims, so if they see the article - they know the evidences to give a clear view that Islam is against terrorism. So they can pass it onto others, or they can atleast be informed of the truth.




For Muslim Related Forums:

Alot of People don't know where the Muslims stand today, with all these attacks going on - we're all confused. Is this terrorism a part of Islam? What should the Muslims really be doing?


We know there's quite alot of verses in the Qur'an which call against killing and harming innocent people;


Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

[Qur'an 5:32]



So it's mentioned that killing one person unjustly is like killing all of mankind, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of mankind.


Now some people are still confused, are we supposed to be kind to non muslims? The answer for this is also in the Qur'an:


Allah/God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just.

[Qur'an 60:8]


So Allah/God is telling us that He does not stop us from dealing kindly and justly with the people who don't fight us for our faith. He encourages us to be kind and just towards them, and He loves that.




But then there's some people who twist the words of the Qur'an and argue that Muslims are allowed to kill the people who attack Muslim lands. Does this mean that the non fighters should be fought aswell?

Let's look at what the Messenger of Allah, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said;


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) forbade the killing of non-combatants. Ibn `Umar, a Companion of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), said: “I saw the body of a slain woman during one of the battles of the Prophet (peace be upon him), so he forbade the killing of women and children.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]


This narration shows how it's forbidden to kill people who are not fighting the Muslims, and this includes the innocent people who are living their daily lives within the lands we're living in. Such as the UK, Europe, USA etc.


And even when defense is allowed in Islam, innocent people are not to be killed either;


Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) used to say the following words to his troops before sending them to war: “Go forward in the name of Allah. Do not kill an elderly person, nor a child, nor a woman, and do not exceed the bounds.” [ al-Muwatta’]



More info:

IslamReligion.com



maybe if we as Muslims can speak out to others - condemning the kind of stuff which is wrong, our lives as Muslims might become abit more easier insha Allah (God willing.) So spread this far and wide! You might just stop a terrorist attack.. or something?








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Na7lah
04-06-2008, 12:28 AM
This ones abit edited and aimed at non muslim audiences (a slight change of some wording insha Allah: )


For Non-Muslim Related Forums:

Alot of People don't know where the Muslims stand today, with all these attacks going on - everyone's all confused. Is this terrorism a part of Islam? If so, why is Islam the most followed religion in the world today?



We know there's quite alot of verses in the Qur'an which call against killing and harming innocent people, and about the importance of life;


Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

[Qur'an 5:32]



So it's mentioned by God, that killing one person unjustly is like killing all of mankind, and saving the life of one person is like saving all of mankind.


Now some people are still confused, are Muslims' really supposed to be kind to non muslims? The answer for this is also in the Qur'an:


Allah/God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just.

[Qur'an 60:8]


So Allah/God is telling Muslims' that He does not stop us from dealing kindly and justly with the people who don't fight us for our faith. He encourages us to be kind and just towards them, and He loves that, since that is justice.




But then there's some people who twist the words of the Qur'an and argue that Muslims are allowed to kill the people who attack Muslim lands. Does this mean that the non fighters who are living their normal daily lives away from the battlefield, should they be fought aswell?

Let's look at what the final Messenger of Allah/God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said;


The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) forbade the killing of non-combatants. Ibn `Umar, a Companion of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), said: “I saw the body of a slain woman during one of the battles of the Prophet (peace be upon him), so he forbade the killing of women and children.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]


This narration shows how it's forbidden to kill people who are not fighting the Muslims, and this includes the innocent people who are living their daily lives within the lands we're living in. Such as the UK, Europe, USA etc.


And even when defense is allowed in Islam, innocent people are not to be killed either;


Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) used to say the following words to his troops before sending them to war (i.e. in defense): “Go forward in the name of Allah. Do not kill an elderly person, nor a child, nor a woman, and do not exceed the bounds.” [ al-Muwatta’]



More info:

IslamReligion.com


Click on the above link to find out more about what Islam is all about!




Peace!




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barney
04-06-2008, 12:59 AM
Although I applaud any work done to bring about peace and understanding between the religions and indeed humanity, I notice that your quotes from the Surah miss out a crucial lines.
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

So although i know this surah is quoted in good faith, its directed at the children of Israel, and has two exeptions. Murder and sowing mischeif.
The Muslims who plant bombs are the ones who quote the full text, not a sanitised version.

If there ever was a sentance in a scripture that needed clarification, its sowing mischeif. Is that scrumping apples from a neighbours tree? Is it speaking badly of the ummah? Is it oppressing the ummah by slavery? Or is it military attacks on the Ummah?
It's basically whatever Muslims want it to be.
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barney
04-06-2008, 01:01 AM
Muslims if they want to break from the shadow of terrorism need to tell mankind theirs is a religion of peace.
To do this they must shout out against terror, and their shouts must literally be louder than Bombs.
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Yanal
04-06-2008, 01:27 AM
Asalam Alaykum Warakmatulahi Wabarkatuh.
I don't think it is only for muslims to see. I think it is for the people who accuse innocent muslims in Asian countries also.
This is only my opinion.
Khudafiz
Reply

Omari
04-06-2008, 03:13 AM
We have to realize that there ARE no Muslim terrorists. There NEVER was a SINGLE Muslim terrorist in the world. Merely people who use the word to accomplish their selfish desires.
These terrorists are PAYED to do what they do in order for bigger people to accomplish THEIR own goals. It's all planned out, and politicized.

As my brother had clearly quoted from the quran:
Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

[Qur'an 5:32]

Any muslim following the quran would never kill an innocent being.

Jazakullah-hu-khairan for sharing sister.
Peace be with you.
Omari
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snakelegs
04-06-2008, 03:21 AM
i believe that the vast majority of muslims are against terrorism.
however, the issue is not quite so clear-cut.
for example, see:
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34830&ln=eng
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barney
04-06-2008, 03:22 AM
Is that the "Islam is perfect-some Muslims are not" arguement?
or
"Islam is perfect and when muslims do something wrong, at the point they do it they cease to be muslim"

And @ Snake: Thats not the only site of course, theres thousands of them out here, just as there are millions upon millions of muslims who beleive this. We have lots of them crop up on these forums.
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Na7lah
04-06-2008, 03:23 AM
edit
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snakelegs
04-06-2008, 03:40 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Is that the "Islam is perfect-some Muslims are not" arguement?
or
"Islam is perfect and when muslims do something wrong, at the point they do it they cease to be muslim"

And @ Snake: Thats not the only site of course, theres thousands of them out here, just as there are millions upon millions of muslims who beleive this. We have lots of them crop up on these forums.
i believe they are a small minority. but they do indeed exist.
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barney
04-06-2008, 03:51 AM
Yeah, it is a small amount on forums certainly who follow that face of "islamic" teaching.
I know the forums are, pro-rata, populated mainly by muslims living in the west.
Perhaps this may have some influence on the numbers?
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snakelegs
04-06-2008, 04:13 AM
maybe. it's really just speculation. islam, like any other religion(with the possible exception of catholism), is not one thing.
still, common sense suggests to me, that the vast majority of human beings are against killing innocent people - and this would of course, include muslims.
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barney
04-06-2008, 04:22 AM
Who was it who said "for evil to triumph all it takes is good men to do nothing"?
Was that Kennedy or Lincon or Col Saunders?

Anyway, thats what is needed. Good men and women to do something.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-06-2008, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
maybe. it's really just speculation. islam, like any other religion(with the possible exception of catholism), is not one thing.
still, common sense suggests to me, that the vast majority of human beings are against killing innocent people - and this would of course, include muslims.
What do you mean Islam is not one thing?. That is preciscly what it is - ONE THING. There is only one thing called the religion of Islam. It contains many sub-elements if you like; like the quran, its followers (Muslims) and holy places but it only equates to ONE thing.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-06-2008, 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Who was it who said "for evil to triumph all it takes is good men to do nothing"?
Was that Kennedy or Lincon or Col Saunders?

Anyway, thats what is needed. Good men and women to do something.
I have to add one thing - this whole so-called "war on terror" is something which has been extremely badly skewed.

Most sane and reasonable people, deep down, know this. For a start, more people die each year from swimming pool accidents than they do from 'terror incidents' (I put this phrase in commas as I am very skeptical about how many EXACTLY are done by Muslims alone e.g. with the training, arming, nurturing and I even heard naming of Al-Qaeda by the CIA) - thats an official UN report quote.

So number one: its been blown out of proportion to serve other needs - e.g. invasions. The second point is: the Muslims have been condoning this for a long time. Whether people chose to listen or not is another issue but the facts remain.

Its the sad state of the times we are living in now. The truth is the truth even if you are the only one calling to it and falsehood is falsehood even if everyones doing it.
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Cabdullahi
04-06-2008, 10:49 AM
war on islam is disguised under war on terror,there are muslim terrorists but the media do perfectly well in exaggerating and making the public hate islam but what the viewers dont know is that the western governments have caused more terror to muslims in the arab world,i cannot accept the west to urge me to tackle terrorism when my muslim brothers are being terrorised abroad,When the illegal state israel is demolished when america pulls out of iraq and afghanistan then only terrorism will stop
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Whatsthepoint
04-06-2008, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Omari
As my brother had clearly quoted from the quran:
Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.
[Qur'an 5:32]
the blue part is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways...
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S1aveofA11ah
04-06-2008, 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
the blue part is rather vague and can be interpreted in many ways...
It can be interrprested in an infintie number of (false) ways however the truth of Islam still remains as ONE truth.

Ultimately, just like we Muslims believe there is only one, true God (Allah), there is only one, true religion (Islam) of Allah and only one, true interrpretation of it otherwise there would be many 'Islams'.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-06-2008, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
war on islam is disguised under war on terror,there are muslim terrorists but the media do perfectly well in exaggerating and making the public hate islam but what the viewers dont know is that the western governments have caused more terror to muslims in the arab world,i cannot accept the west to urge me to tackle terrorism when my muslim brothers are being terrorised abroad,When the illegal state israel is demolished when america pulls out of iraq and afghanistan then only terrorism will stop
Two wrongs my brother don't make a right. Don't stoop to the level of your enemy and bring shame on your head like they have.

We should be proud of our religion; its the biggest of blessings Allah has given us more than even health or life. If the West urge you to tackle Terror then so does Islam so you have no harm in agreeing; you lose nothing to them and gain good only. There is no stigma attached, in fact when they see us Muslims fighting evils perhaps they will take note and wake up.
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Whatsthepoint
04-06-2008, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
It can be interrprested in an infintie number of (false) ways however the truth of Islam still remains as ONE truth.

Ultimately, just like we Muslims believe there is only one, true God (Allah), there is only one, true religion (Islam) of Allah and only one, true interrpretation of it otherwise there would be many 'Islams'.
How do you know your interpretation is teh correct one? Do you have other verses and hadiths to back it up? do you think terrorism supporters don't?
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S1aveofA11ah
04-06-2008, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
How do you know your interpretation is teh correct one? Do you have other verses and hadiths to back it up? do you think terrorism supporters don't?
Whatsthepoint: Whether you agree or not that there is only one true interrpretation of Islam is your businesses - its up to you what you think, no-one should force you. How do I know my interpretation is the correct one?. How do you know your interrpretation of 2+2=4 is the correct one?. The truth manifests itself in many ways and evidence is the way to know for sure.

This is where Islam is unique; like no other religion - its a religion of proofs/evidences. In fact logic would tell you that the true religion must be able to be prooved by evidences otherwise it would be gobbledegook/falsehood. Its got to be able to 'stand the test'. No wonder Islam is the world's fastest growing religion. Don't you think God (if he exists - to put it in agnostic-speak) would make his religion supreme over all others?. The people won't as people - as we all know - imperfect.

The job of explaining Islam properly is obviously by the scholars of Islam and they have the right tools. This is a wide spread of various sciences/fields such as: history, Arabic language, law and and many others which are understood in depth.

The terrorists can have their verses/hadiths listed 'till the cows come home' but it doesn't bring a dot of truth.
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Azy
04-06-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
How do I know my interpretation is the correct one?. How do you know your interrpretation of 2+2=4 is the correct one?
This makes no sense. There is only one answer to the question "what is 2+2?" because of the way numbers are defined.
There are as many answers as there are people to the question "what is corruption?" or "what is making mischief?"
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snakelegs
04-06-2008, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
What do you mean Islam is not one thing?. That is preciscly what it is - ONE THING. There is only one thing called the religion of Islam. It contains many sub-elements if you like; like the quran, its followers (Muslims) and holy places but it only equates to ONE thing.
people make statements like "islam such and such". what i meant was that islam has no Central Authority like a pope or something. the scholars don't all agree on all issues - there are different interpretions. islam is not an institution, like the catholic church. so it many things - it is not a monolith.
beyond the basics, there is no one who can speak for islam on all issues that all muslims would agree with.
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aadil77
04-06-2008, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
people make statements like "islam such and such". what i meant was that islam has no Central Authority like a pope or something. the scholars don't all agree on all issues - there are different interpretions. islam is not an institution, like the catholic church. so it many things - it is not a monolith.
beyond the basics, there is no one who can speak for islam on all issues that all muslims would agree with.
yes that's true, there are the alims (scholars), they share the same views, but there isn't one authority that can speak for every muslim,
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barney
04-07-2008, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
. For a start, more people die each year from swimming pool accidents than they do from 'terror incidents' (.
The Swimming pool accidents are Accidents. it's in the name.
The Terror attacks are mass murder designed to "cast fear into their hearts".
Its in the name.

March 2008 total casulties from one website.
Jihad Attacks: 167
Countries: 14
Dead Bodies: 847
Injured: 1712.

Each one a person. Most of them muslims. Statistics can be skewed, but these dont include combat casulties. They are shootings and bombings for one month.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-07-2008, 08:51 AM
Barney, the reasonably minded world is slowly but surely waking up to what is happening with the 'war on terror' and subsequent colonialisation/invasions. Many have known for years.

When/where death or injury (in whatever form it comes in e.g. terror attacks, accidents etc.) can be reduced (e.g. eliminating terrorism or implementing safety measures) it is important to reduce it.

More swimming pool safety features/training/education is therefore needed to combat the accidents/deaths aiming to reduce (eliminate?) the 3000 deaths/year figure. According to the statistics (and logic) MORE should therefore be channelled to the swimming pool threat than terrorist threats. Have we seen billions invested in accident reduction suddenly like the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan?. We have seen billions of dollars pumped into the Iraq/Afghanistan genocides. The result?. A reduction on terror?. Fat chance!. We've seen the biggest terror unleashed recently with something like a million Iraqs killed - God knows how many civilians - and so many injured. Will this effectively reduce terrorism by Muslims?. Now the dodgy groups are going to possibly increase their attacks due to all this mismanagement (oppression).

Before someone starts opening up the 'those stats are dodgy' line I'll add another point. This is JUST swimming pool accidents. There are hundreds of others. Also there are thousands of other 'terror' threats. Domestic crime, rape, murder, robbery, car crimes - the list is long.
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Keltoi
04-07-2008, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Barney, the reasonably minded world is slowly but surely waking up to what is happening with the 'war on terror' and subsequent colonialisation/invasions. Many have known for years.

When/where death or injury (in whatever form it comes in e.g. terror attacks, accidents etc.) can be reduced (e.g. eliminating terrorism or implementing safety measures) it is important to reduce it.

More swimming pool safety features/training/education is therefore needed to combat the accidents/deaths aiming to reduce (eliminate?) the 3000 deaths/year figure. According to the statistics (and logic) MORE should therefore be channelled to the swimming pool threat than terrorist threats. Have we seen billions invested in accident reduction suddenly like the invasion of Iraq/Afghanistan?. We have seen billions of dollars pumped into the Iraq/Afghanistan genocides. The result?. A reduction on terror?. Fat chance!. We've seen the biggest terror unleashed recently with something like a million Iraqs killed - God knows how many civilians - and so many injured. Will this effectively reduce terrorism by Muslims?. Now the dodgy groups are going to possibly increase their attacks due to all this mismanagement (oppression).

Before someone starts opening up the 'those stats are dodgy' line I'll add another point. This is JUST swimming pool accidents. There are hundreds of others. Also there are thousands of other 'terror' threats. Domestic crime, rape, murder, robbery, car crimes - the list is long.

You do understand the difference between willful acts of murder and carnage and swimming pool accidents don't you? While I agree the threat posed by terrorism to everyday Americans, Brits, etc is small, it doesn't change the fact that terrorism does exist and has killed and does kill many thousands of people every year. Not to mention the effect it can have on international and domestic stability. No country is going to sit idly by while it's citizens are being murdered by a terrorist ideology.
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Azy
04-07-2008, 11:45 AM
I think I might write a letter to my local MP asking that police manpower be redirected towards checking paths for ice instead of hunting rapists. It's an underestimated danger to humanity I think we can all agree.
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Muezzin
04-07-2008, 01:36 PM
I think I might write a letter to my MP asking why a thread on 'Muslims Against Terrorism' has gone off the rails like a tipsy Thomas the Tank Engine.

And I'll also ask for a watermelon.
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barney
04-08-2008, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I think I might write a letter to my MP asking why a thread on 'Muslims Against Terrorism' has gone off the rails like a tipsy Thomas the Tank Engine.

And I'll also ask for a watermelon.
I always thought that James the Red Engine would be the staggering lager lout.


I'll voice it once more. Muslims against terrorism. This concept needs supporting and nurturing and backing in every way possible.
If only it could be centralised as a campaign. That caught the imagination like Live-Aid did.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-12-2008, 10:18 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
This makes no sense. There is only one answer to the question "what is 2+2?" because of the way numbers are defined.
There are as many answers as there are people to the question "what is corruption?" or "what is making mischief?"
The point was that terrorists are being taught WRONG teachings/ideas about Islam i.e. things not from the religion.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-12-2008, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
You do understand the difference between willful acts of murder and carnage and swimming pool accidents don't you? While I agree the threat posed by terrorism to everyday Americans, Brits, etc is small, it doesn't change the fact that terrorism does exist and has killed and does kill many thousands of people every year. Not to mention the effect it can have on international and domestic stability. No country is going to sit idly by while it's citizens are being murdered by a terrorist ideology.
What do you think!??. Of course I know the difference...one invloves intentional harm (willful acts of murder and carnage) and the other (swimming pool accidents) does not. In the second harm sometimes results but is never intended or sought. No-one is saying they are identical. I'm just quoting you official UN statistics - more people die each year from swimming pool mishaps than terror incidents.

However, my point is that the END RESULT is the same - death or injury. Further, how this loss (death/injury) fits into the BIGGER picture of what is going on in the world today i.e. lands being invaded.

We don't see $1 trillion dollars SUDDENLY going into reducing deaths/injuries from other sources as we did in the Iraq oppression - I'm talking about how sudden and how 'well-organised' the invasion was.

No country is going to sit idly by while it's citizens are being murdered by a terrorist ideology --- no sane person is condoning such ideologies. However these idelogies are also being used as excuses for others to carry out their own ideologies and this is my main point.

The so-called "war on terror" is a catch-phrase manipulated by some oppresive powers to instill a fearful-type thinking into the minds of people. Which sane ideology says that if 3000 innocent people (i.e. 9/11) are killed by some sick nutters then we will go to a land and kill innocent people (civilians) in order to teach those sick people a lesson or better still put a stop to their existence?. They have done the same as the terrorists except on a grander scale.
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S1aveofA11ah
04-12-2008, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
I think I might write a letter to my local MP asking that police manpower be redirected towards checking paths for ice instead of hunting rapists. It's an underestimated danger to humanity I think we can all agree.
Look Azy - have a fair and polite discussion we me and others here on the forum but please don't get sarcy with me. If you want to write a letter like that to your MP then that is your business. However, don't try and blur the issue with a nonsense arguement. I quoted statistics of REAL deaths from swimming pool accidents. You probably don't even know how many people die each year from iced roads anyway so don't even go down there. My point is no-one is saying don't put money into fighting terrorism. No-one is saying don't put money into swimming pool safety - even in rape reduction for that matter.

The point is fight the threats properly - in the true and JUST due they deserve - each and every one of them. Don't fight fire with fire. Killing a million INNOCENT Iraqis because of one tyrant leader and no WMD is terrorism plain and clear. Not one of those Iraqis was a terrorist who harmed people in other lands - they probably never even travelled to another country in all their life!. They were ordinary people. That is an unfair retaliation.
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barney
04-12-2008, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
What do you think!??. Of course I know the difference...one invloves intentional harm (willful acts of murder and carnage) and the other (swimming pool accidents) does not. In the second harm sometimes results but is never intended or sought. No-one is saying they are identical. I'm just quoting you official UN statistics - more people die each year from swimming pool mishaps than terror incidents.

However, my point is that the END RESULT is the same - death or injury. Further, how this loss (death/injury) fits into the BIGGER picture of what is going on in the world today i.e. lands being invaded.

We don't see $1 trillion dollars SUDDENLY going into reducing deaths/injuries from other sources as we did in the Iraq oppression - I'm talking about how sudden and how 'well-organised' the invasion was.

No country is going to sit idly by while it's citizens are being murdered by a terrorist ideology --- no sane person is condoning such ideologies. However these idelogies are also being used as excuses for others to carry out their own ideologies and this is my main point.

The so-called "war on terror" is a catch-phrase manipulated by some oppresive powers to instill a fearful-type thinking into the minds of people. Which sane ideology says that if 3000 innocent people (i.e. 9/11) are killed by some sick nutters then we will go to a land and kill innocent people (civilians) in order to teach those sick people a lesson or better still put a stop to their existence?. They have done the same as the terrorists except on a grander scale.
One of Tony Benn's, bless him, favorite buzzlines is "there is no difference between a stealth bomber and a suicide bomber.

Differences I can see:
1) one is a aircraft, the other a person.
2) one travels at 700 MPH, the other at 4 MPH
3) One of them uses trillions of pounds of technology and intelligence to avoid causing harm to innocents; the other spends a couple of bucks to deliberatly cause the maximum harm to innocents.

Should the west have gone into Iraq and Afganistan?
Afganistan supported and housed the leader of the attacks on the USA. Thats plain self defence.
Saddam may have hated america, and wished its downfall, and been in violation of countless UN resolutions. I went to Iraq and it wasnt for us about the WMD's it was about the iraqi people who were picking over the landfill sites outside basra for food as they had done for ten years. it was about the endless stories of killings and torture that Saddam had committed. The three hundred thousand dead under the sands killed by the Baathists. When nobody in the Ummah would help the Iraqi's, the Great Satan spent blood and money to try and make it a better place.
They tried, and they failed. that dosnt in my books make it wrong.
If two kids are brawling in the street and the brother of one comes along and kicks the head of the other one in, is the guy who drags the brother away responsible for the two kids carrying on fighting?
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S1aveofA11ah
04-12-2008, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by barney
I always thought that James the Red Engine would be the staggering lager lout.


I'll voice it once more. Muslims against terrorism. This concept needs supporting and nurturing and backing in every way possible.
If only it could be centralised as a campaign. That caught the imagination like Live-Aid did.

Please correct me if I am wrong but you make it sound as if Muslims have done/are doing nothing - as if they are babies about to start their first steps. If anyone has done the most it IS the Muslims because (1) it is THEIR religion that is under attack/scrutiny in all the "war on terror" and therefore they have the most to defend as any Muslim knows his religion is more dear than even his own life and (2) they know their religion the best - so they are best to judge who is and who isn't following it correctly - therefore who IS and who IS NOT a terrorist. The Muslims are the best ones to fight the threat at 'grass-roots' level as they live in/amongst the Muslims. They know the 'mind-set' so to speak.

Without a doubt your right "This concept needs supporting and nurturing and backing in every way possible" - because it is such a grave evil and (probably) like a lot of evils on-going. I think we all agree that terrorism is probably here to stay like a lot of bad things in the world.

However, you say "If only it could be centralised as a campaign" - well let me tell you the Muslims - those following the true teachings of Islam - are as unified and have been as centralised (on many occaisions) in their attack on terrorism as can be - regardless of all their differences such as lands, colours, race, sex, age etc. They have used/are using all the best approaches they can to tackle it e.g. to root out those bad apples amongst them or the bad ideologies being preached in say established/respected teaching institues. I don't think a stage with Muslims dancing/singing is really apt (in my opinion) as a good counter-measure for terrorism. That (Live aid) in and of itself has not eliminated the starving/poor people in the world - it may have been a good fund raiser for a while but poverty/starvation still remains as a world issue.

Real Muslims have been warning about/against it for YEARS but so sadly some real idiots didn't listen or want to listen and the result was even more real terror (expect on a much greater scale) in the shape of invading people's countries.

You really have to ask yourself who the real terrorists are. Are they JUST Muslims or are they other people as well?. One things clear - some of the BIGGEST currently alive are not Muslim...not a bodycount basis by no means at all...
Reply

barney
04-12-2008, 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Please correct me if I am wrong but you make it sound as if Muslims have done/are doing nothing - as if they are babies about to start their first steps. If anyone has done the most it IS the Muslims because (1) it is THEIR religion that is under attack/scrutiny in all the "war on terror" and therefore they have the most to defend as any Muslim knows his religion is more dear than even his own life and (2) they know their religion the best - so they are best to judge who is and who isn't following it correctly - therefore who IS and who IS NOT a terrorist. The Muslims are the best ones to fight the threat at 'grass-roots' level as they live in/amongst the Muslims. They know the 'mind-set' so to speak.

Without a doubt your right "This concept needs supporting and nurturing and backing in every way possible" - because it is such a grave evil and (probably) like a lot of evils on-going. I think we all agree that terrorism is probably here to stay like a lot of bad things in the world.

However, you say "If only it could be centralised as a campaign" - well let me tell you the Muslims - those following the true teachings of Islam - are as unified and have been as centralised (on many occaisions) in their attack on terrorism as can be - regardless of all their differences such as lands, colours, race, sex, age etc. They have used/are using all the best approaches they can to tackle it e.g. to root out those bad apples amongst them or the bad ideologies being preached in say established/respected teaching institues. I don't think a stage with Muslims dancing/singing is really apt (in my opinion) as a good counter-measure for terrorism. That (Live aid) in and of itself has not eliminated the starving/poor people in the world - it may have been a good fund raiser for a while but poverty/starvation still remains as a world issue.

Real Muslims have been warning about/against it for YEARS but so sadly some real idiots didn't listen or want to listen and the result was even more real terror (expect on a much greater scale) in the shape of invading people's countries.

You really have to ask yourself who the real terrorists are. Are they JUST Muslims or are they other people as well?. One things clear - some of the BIGGEST currently alive are not Muslim...not a bodycount basis by no means at all...
two quick responses.
1) Why has noone heard of any of this massive response then? I can if you like link you to a few thousand west hate sites and a few more thousand apologist terrorism sites. I could show you hours upon hours of footage of muslims gathering in thousands and tens of thousands to decry the west, burn flags, rant against Bush, call for the death of Dutch artists, rage against Israel, banners and placards being swung frantically against the banning of headscarfs.

Where is the footage of a demonstration of muslims against terrorism.
Well actually, its on You tube. Some of the Ummah have responded. Its a pityful few compared to the job that needs to be done.
Muslims are sticking their head in the sand thinking that this is going to go away.The west is thinking that they can defeat terrorism by killing the terrorist. There is hardly any point in that.

2)The only way to defeat terrorism is by the Ummah waking up, and showing as much rage against the extremists as they show against the banning of headwear in schools.
This is the Ummahs challenge. There is always the west to blame for things, its never the fault of the muslims, as long as that remains the mindset terrorism will grow and grow to the doom of us all.
Check out the anti US leftist site iraqbodycount.
Check who is killing the innocents.
Reply

S1aveofA11ah
04-12-2008, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by barney
One of Tony Benn's, bless him, favorite buzzlines is "there is no difference between a stealth bomber and a suicide bomber.

Differences I can see:
1) one is a aircraft, the other a person.
2) one travels at 700 MPH, the other at 4 MPH
3) One of them uses trillions of pounds of technology and intelligence to avoid causing harm to innocents; the other spends a couple of bucks to deliberatly cause the maximum harm to innocents.

Should the west have gone into Iraq and Afganistan?
Afganistan supported and housed the leader of the attacks on the USA. Thats plain self defence.
Saddam may have hated america, and wished its downfall, and been in violation of countless UN resolutions. I went to Iraq and it wasnt for us about the WMD's it was about the iraqi people who were picking over the landfill sites outside basra for food as they had done for ten years. it was about the endless stories of killings and torture that Saddam had committed. The three hundred thousand dead under the sands killed by the Baathists. When nobody in the Ummah would help the Iraqi's, the Great Satan spent blood and money to try and make it a better place.
They tried, and they failed. that dosnt in my books make it wrong.
If two kids are brawling in the street and the brother of one comes along and kicks the head of the other one in, is the guy who drags the brother away responsible for the two kids carrying on fighting?
Well your entitled to YOUR opinion. However, stealth bomber, gun, soldier, missle, tank - whatever the weapon under scrutiny the result was the same - some ridiculous figure of something like a million Iraqis killed. Saddam was the US's friend over a long political period.


"Afganistan supported and housed the leader of the attacks on the USA". It is VERY debatable who did the attacks on 9/11 in their ENTIRETY. Who trained Al-Qaeda? - the USA. Who armed and nurtured them? - the USA. Bin Laden was their man not the Taliban's man. He was putty in their hands. Did he accomplish the 9-11 attacks on his own?. No inside help?. Not even a jet on duty at the building (Pentagon) with the world's highlest surveillance?. With the USAs security so advanced?. We are in cloud-cuckoo land now - I'm sure all will agree.

"Thats plain self defence". No it isn't. Self-defense would have been for America to have stopped the 4 passenger jets hitting buildings. They went on an offensive against tons of innocent people who had no relation to terrorism.

"...When nobody in the Ummah would help the Iraqi's, the Great Satan spent blood and money to try and make it a better place...." - That's a joke from start to end. Firstly Muslims don't refer to the US as the great satan (unless they are maybe terrorists) - as we believe their is ONLY one satan who IS the archenemy. Secondly - the Ummah was helping the Iraqis - both internally as an Ummah (i.e. the Iraqis helping each other in day to day living) and with external trade/support. Don't try and blur reality. Some of the West were NOT helping by putting sanctions on a MILLION dead babies so get your facts right. The facts remain as they are - you don't make any place better by killing innocents on a huge/massive scale. Two wrongs don't make a right.


"I went to Iraq and it wasnt for us about the WMD's it was about the iraqi people who were picking over the landfill sites outside basra for food as they had done for ten years. it was about the endless stories of killings and torture that Saddam had committed". This shows the viewers of this forum what kind of person you are if you "went to Iraq".

The Iraqis are the one's who count and THEY say they were BETTER OFF under Saddam so save the sob stories about landfill sites. At least they could look for food without their daughters being gang raped and then having their brains blown out.


"They tried, and they failed. that dosnt in my books make it wrong." I don't know what books you are reading but I reckon it might be Satan's own books.
Reply

S1aveofA11ah
04-13-2008, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by barney
two quick responses.
1) Why has noone heard of any of this massive response then? I can if you like link you to a few thousand west hate sites and a few more thousand apologist terrorism sites. I could show you hours upon hours of footage of muslims gathering in thousands and tens of thousands to decry the west, burn flags, rant against Bush, call for the death of Dutch artists, rage against Israel, banners and placards being swung frantically against the banning of headscarfs.

Where is the footage of a demonstration of muslims against terrorism.
Well actually, its on You tube. Some of the Ummah have responded. Its a pityful few compared to the job that needs to be done.
Muslims are sticking their head in the sand thinking that this is going to go away.The west is thinking that they can defeat terrorism by killing the terrorist. There is hardly any point in that.

2)The only way to defeat terrorism is by the Ummah waking up, and showing as much rage against the extremists as they show against the banning of headwear in schools.
This is the Ummahs challenge. There is always the west to blame for things, its never the fault of the muslims, as long as that remains the mindset terrorism will grow and grow to the doom of us all.
Check out the anti US leftist site iraqbodycount.
Check who is killing the innocents.

Look Barney - I for one (I don't know about others) and just about fed up with your constant, blatant and see-through doubt-spreading. Doubts, doubts, doubts. What is surprising - your an agnostic after all; you even doubt God exists - you probably doubt your own existence (maybe your just a figment of your neighbour's imagination who himself is a space-alien from Neptune or something like that?). Who knows Barney? - who cares?. I for one don't because your responses are SO doubt ridden its almost beyond belief which is why I say goodbye Barney; I've no time to entertain your doubt-mongering. You see the Muslim may call you to Islam but if you behave in such a manner then don't expect much daw'ah or scope to open up debate. Ask any Muslim to read your post above - they will see it is full of rubbish. YouTube - as if that is SOOOOO important in the world. Who gives a **** about Youtube or 1000's of dodgy sites. Anyone can devise and push-out 1000's of websites in a few days.

If you want a GENUINE debate on Islam (which is why this is an Islamic forum) then by all means - open up some sensible DOUBT-FREE dialogue.
Reply

barney
04-13-2008, 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
Look Barney - I for one (I don't know about others) and just about fed up with your constant, blatant and see-through doubt-spreading. Doubts, doubts, doubts. What is surprising - your an agnostic after all; you even doubt God exists - you probably doubt your own existence (maybe your just a figment of your neighbour's imagination who himself is a space-alien from Neptune or something like that?). Who knows Barney? - who cares?. I for one don't because your responses are SO doubt ridden its almost beyond belief which is why I say goodbye Barney; I've no time to entertain your doubt-mongering. You see the Muslim may call you to Islam but if you behave in such a manner then don't expect much daw'ah or scope to open up debate. Ask any Muslim to read your post above - they will see it is full of rubbish. YouTube - as if that is SOOOOO important in the world. Who gives a **** about Youtube or 1000's of dodgy sites. Anyone can devise and push-out 1000's of websites in a few days.

If you want a GENUINE debate on Islam (which is why this is an Islamic forum) then by all means - open up some sensible DOUBT-FREE dialogue.
With all due respect, your simply quoting the mantra you have been fed.

Firstly. Iraq has 24 million people.
If the US killed a million of them with guns and a million babies with starvation, thats 2 millon dead. Attrition research rules that for each KIA there are 8-10 WIA.
that means that over 75% of iraqs poulation has been killed or wounded. Its pure fantasy, theres no basis in reality other than the website you read that from. I'm sure they did their research really really well.

i know its a happy excuse to think that Al Quada diddnt plan it, but your ignoring Osamas own admissions. you cant get any clearer than that!
then , when it suits, you seem to switch to "But Al-Quada were created by the US" Which again is fantasy. The US supported the Muj against the Russians. They gave them missiles and ammo and money. Does that mean theyre responsible for Al Quadas insane doctrine?

You seem also to beleive that the USA or any other country is flying combat air patrols in peacetime over their cities in case something like this occours. nope, it diddnt. Hence it must have been an inside job.....but the US created Al-Quada, so meh, your to blame again. Sensing a pattern at all?

Ok so they shoot down the jets. Then wait for more. Then shoot them down, and wait for more. Top Tip; dont ever become a leader of a nation. Shoot down two hundred of your own civilians a pop to defend your land? Sign me up! What a great policy!

External trade and support. I would invite you to find out who gave Iraq money during the period 91-2003. Check out who the traders were, exports and imports. it's going to enlighten you.
What Arab nation demonstrated against Saddam?
What happened to the oil-for -food money.
What sect did you have to be to get admitted to hospital in saddams iraq?
How many US soldiers have strapped bombs to themselves and blown up schools?
What is the US Armys ROE and what happens when its broken?

I actually have no doubts about Gods existance. I know there is/was something that I call God. Your sick of my doubts? theres an Ignore feature, please use it.

If a debate is too difficult then dont join in. thats simple.
Anyway, farewell then and best wishes, but i would advise you to do your own research and think for yourself rather than just chanting a mantra.

Edit: oh yeah, as to what sort of person I am, I'm the person who pressed pressure bandages onto Iraqi kids who had been bayoneted by the Fedyeeen. Thanks.
Reply

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