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FatimaAsSideqah
04-06-2008, 09:01 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Vandals have desecrated 148 Muslim graves in France's biggest WWI cemetery, officials have said.

A pig's head was hung from one headstone and slogans insulting Islam and France's Muslim justice minister were daubed on other graves.

President Nicolas Sarkozy condemned the attack as a "hateful act" and the "most inadmissible kind of racism".

About 78,000 colonial subjects of France, including many Muslims from North Africa, died in the war.

The Notre Dame de Lorette war cemetery, near Arras in northern France, is on the site of some of WWI's largest battles.

About 100 police officers have been sent to the cemetery to investigate the incident.

President Sarkozy has called for the rapid detention and punishment of those responsible.

In a similar attack in April 2007, Nazi slogans and swastikas were painted on about 50 graves in the Muslim section of the cemetery. Two men were sentenced to a year in prison for that act.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7333344.stm
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Whatsthepoint
04-07-2008, 02:42 PM
A disgrace! Awful!:raging:
Muslims whose graves have been defiled did more for France than these nazi hate mongers ever will!
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 02:49 PM
They are ignorant. First of all many Muslims were allied with Nazi Germany. Arabs attacked the British Garrison in Baghdad with promises from the Third Reich of air support (which never came). The Grand Mufti of Palestine was a huge proponent of the "Final Solution" and was put in charge of his own SS unit made up of mostly muslims in Serbia.
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crayon
04-07-2008, 02:50 PM
Simply disgusting.
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Simply disgusting.
Absolutely without a doubt disgusting. If caught part of their punishment should be to clean those headstones with their tongues.
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barney
04-07-2008, 02:59 PM
Cowardly scum. Disgusting.
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MTAFFI
04-07-2008, 04:18 PM
never liked the french much... just goes to show the level of idiocy and impertinence still readily available in the world today
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aamirsaab
04-07-2008, 04:22 PM
:sl:
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to deface a grave. It's like, is nothing sacred left in the world? Can the dead not just be left to you know rest?
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Omar_Mukhtar
04-07-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
. First of all many Muslims were allied with Nazi Germany. Arabs attacked the British Garrison in Baghdad with promises from the Third Reich of air support (which never came). The Grand Mufti of Palestine was a huge proponent of the "Final Solution" and was put in charge of his own SS unit made up of mostly muslims in Serbia.
Nonsense!
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Amadeus85
04-07-2008, 04:37 PM
Unfortunately the pagan neo nazi movement is growing in strength in many parts of Old Continent. It won't bring any good to anyone.
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Keltoi
04-07-2008, 05:05 PM
Grave desecration is fairly common, unfortunately. The difference here is the obvious religious component at play. A few years back the grave of Quanah Parker, for those of you who know who that is, was desecrated by people who obviously had a hatred for Native Americans. Cemetaries are usually fairly vulnerable to vandalism, as most people keep their distance out of respect, but perhaps it is time to create a new profession...cemetary security.
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
Nonsense!
What is nonsense about it? Do you not know who Al-Huseyani is? This is not a matter of hearsay it is a known fact.
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Grave desecration is fairly common, unfortunately. The difference here is the obvious religious component at play. A few years back the grave of Quanah Parker, for those of you who know who that is, was desecrated by people who obviously had a hatred for Native Americans. Cemetaries are usually fairly vulnerable to vandalism, as most people keep their distance out of respect, but perhaps it is time to create a new profession...cemetary security.
Cherokee right? Founder of the Native American Church. Dealt heavily in Peyote.
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Amadeus85
04-07-2008, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
What is nonsense about it? Do you not know who Al-Huseyani is? This is not a matter of hearsay it is a known fact.
It was just an extreme exception, which doesnt make the rule.
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Omar_Mukhtar
04-07-2008, 05:59 PM
@Izyan, it's a "fact" that “many Muslims" supported Nazism because the Mufti in Palestine supported the Nazis and all because some Arabs attacked the British in Baghdad?

That would actually make sense since the British had been colonizing and slaughtering Arabs in Iraq, whilst the Palestinians had lost Jerusalem at that time? You know in politics, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing. Furthermore, many Muslims during that era couldn’t care as they were equally occupied by Italy, Britain, France and the other powers.


But that is beside the point and not why a labeled your remarks nonsensical.

It is nonsense because you can't prove that "many Muslims" were allied to Nazism. In any case, even if you have sufficient prove for your case, it has no relevance to the desecration of the graves! What is the purpose in rushing to this thread to remind people that "many Muslims were allied to Nazism"?


Imagine if some Austrian war graves had been desecrated and I replied with the remarks, “it’s a fact many Austrians were allied to Nazi Germany". What has that got to with today? Nothing! Many Germans were allied to Nazism? Again, how is that important to what happens today? Members of the Catholic Church supported Nazism. Does that mean "many Catholics were allied to Nazism"?


It's as if you’re trying to cleverly demonize Muslims, by pointing historical half truths, which were in fact related to the events of that day. Didn't many Muslims fight Nazism for Europeans, only to never really be recognized or rewarded for their efforts, i.e. those in France? Why only point out the Muslims who were supposedly allied to Nazi Germany?
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
It was just an extreme exception, which doesnt make the rule.
Yes and no. There was a large muslim population in Palestine, Syria, and Iraq that were Pro Nazi. They saw the Nazis as a great partner to realize their dream of Greater Syria.
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-07-2008, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Yes and no. There was a large muslim population in Palestine, Syria, and Iraq that were Pro Nazi. They saw the Nazis as a great partner to realize their dream of Greater Syria.
Pro-Nazis in Palestine, Syria and Iraq?! Where did you heard that from?
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
@Izyan, it's a "fact" that “many Muslims" supported Nazism because the Mufti in Palestine supported the Nazis and all because some Arabs attacked the British in Baghdad?

That would actually make sense since the British had been colonizing and slaughtering Arabs in Iraq, whilst the Palestinians had lost Jerusalem at that time? You know in politics, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, kind of thing. Furthermore, many Muslims during that era couldn’t care as they were equally occupied by Italy, Britain, France and the other powers.


But that is beside the point and not why a labeled your remarks nonsensical.

It is nonsense because you can't prove that "many Muslims" were allied to Nazism. In any case, even if you have sufficient prove for your case, it has no relevance to the desecration of the graves! What is the purpose in rushing to this thread to remind people that "many Muslims were allied to Nazism"?


Imagine if some Austrian war graves had been desecrated and I replied with the remarks, “it’s a fact many Austrians were allied to Nazi Germany". What has that got to with today? Nothing! Many Germans were allied to Nazism? Again, how is that important to what happens today? Members of the Catholic Church supported Nazism. Does that mean "many Catholics were allied to Nazism"?


It's as if you’re trying to cleverly demonize Muslims, by pointing historical half truths, which were in fact related to the events of that day. Didn't many Muslims fight Nazism for Europeans, only to never really be recognized or rewarded for their efforts, i.e. those in France? Why only point out the Muslims who were supposedly allied to Nazi Germany?
Have you read any of my posts before you decided to reply? I said the desecration of the graves were a disgrace. I also said that they were ignorant because muslims also fought with the Axis forces in WWII. Husyani was the Mufti of Jerusalem. Even though Palestine at the was a British Mandate they effectively had control at the time as the 1929, 36-39 revolts proved. Muslims did fight the Alies in Iraq, Egypt, and Serbia. How I know? Because my Grandfather was one of them ( a fact I'm not proud of). As for your Catholic comment, yes the Roman Catholic church has a burden to bare when it comes to Nazism and the Holocaust but aren't we talking about muslims here? By the way I'm not codemning all muslims. There were many muslims that also helped the Jews escape prosecution.
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The_Prince
04-07-2008, 06:17 PM
yes there were pro-nazi arabs, but does that mean they supported the mass extermination of jews? not really, there was NAZIS themselves even some who were close to hitler including his secretary who didnt know what was going on to the jews, such as the mass extermination.

everyone assumes that each single nazi knew of what was happening at the camps and so on, yet thats not so, so being a nazi ally at the time does not mean you were involved in jewish holocaust nor does it mean you supported it.
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by RighteousLady
Pro-Nazis in Palestine, Syria and Iraq?! Where did you heard that from?
Sanctuary and Survival: The PLO in Lebanon, Westview Press, Boulder, 1990

Glenn E. Robinson, Building a Palestinian State: The Incomplete Revolution. Indiana University Press,1997 p. 6

Shaw Report

The Shaw Report, Minority Opinion by Mr.Snell p.174

Yisraeli, David The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945 p. 310 quoted in Browning, Christopher R. (2004). The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 0803213271 p. 539.

Hall Amin Al-Husayni: The Mufti of Jerusalem. Holocaust Encyclopedia (June 25, 2007). Retrieved on 2007-10-19.

Need more sources?
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-07-2008, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Sanctuary and Survival: The PLO in Lebanon, Westview Press, Boulder, 1990

Glenn E. Robinson, Building a Palestinian State: The Incomplete Revolution. Indiana University Press,1997 p. 6

Shaw Report

The Shaw Report, Minority Opinion by Mr.Snell p.174

Yisraeli, David The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945 p. 310 quoted in Browning, Christopher R. (2004). The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy, September 1939-March 1942. University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 0803213271 p. 539.

Hall Amin Al-Husayni: The Mufti of Jerusalem. Holocaust Encyclopedia (June 25, 2007). Retrieved on 2007-10-19.

Need more sources?
I've got that now. :thumbs_up
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
yes there were pro-nazi arabs, but does that mean they supported the mass extermination of jews? not really, there was NAZIS themselves even some who were close to hitler including his secretary who didnt know what was going on to the jews, such as the mass extermination.

everyone assumes that each single nazi knew of what was happening at the camps and so on, yet thats not so, so being a nazi ally at the time does not mean you were involved in jewish holocaust nor does it mean you supported it.
That's not necessarily true. These camps were not exactly small and the public had a big hand in rounding up Jews, Gypsies, black and other undesireables. Where did you think the general public thought these people were going? Not every single Nazi knew they were being killed but they didn't think they were going on Holiday either.
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Omar_Mukhtar
04-07-2008, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Have you read any of my posts before you decided to reply? I said the desecration of the graves were a disgrace. I also said that they were ignorant because muslims also fought with the Axis forces in WWII. Husyani was the Mufti of Jerusalem. Even though Palestine at the was a British Mandate they effectively had control at the time as the 1929, 36-39 revolts proved. Muslims did fight the Alies in Iraq, Egypt, and Serbia. How I know? Because my Grandfather was one of them ( a fact I'm not proud of). As for your Catholic comment, yes the Roman Catholic church has a burden to bare when it comes to Nazism and the Holocaust but aren't we talking about muslims here? By the way I'm not codemning all muslims. There were many muslims that also helped the Jews escape prosecution.
quote:They are ignorant. First of all many Muslims were allied with Nazi Germany. Arabs attacked the British Garrison in Baghdad with promises from the Third Reich of air support (which never came). The Grand Mufti of Palestine was a huge proponent of the "Final Solution" and was put in charge of his own SS unit made up of mostly muslims in Serbia.

That was your first post, in which you stated that " many Muslim were allied with Nazi Germany". You did say they were ignorant, but you made no mention of Muslims who fought alongside their allies!You have now also tried to imply that large populations of Syria, Palestine and other Arab countries were supporters of the Nazi State. Again, more historical half truths!


ps.What many people forget is that many peoples of the colonized world simply saw the second world war as war between European tribes, as a war of good vs evil, since they had brutally suffered under the hands of the allied colonies!
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
quote:They are ignorant. First of all many Muslims were allied with Nazi Germany. Arabs attacked the British Garrison in Baghdad with promises from the Third Reich of air support (which never came). The Grand Mufti of Palestine was a huge proponent of the "Final Solution" and was put in charge of his own SS unit made up of mostly muslims in Serbia.

That was your first post, in which you stated that " many Muslim were allied with Nazi Germany". You did say they were ignorant, but you made no mention of Muslims who fought alongside their allies!You have now also tried to imply that large populations of Syria, Palestine and other Arab countries were supporters of the Nazi State. Again, more historical half truths!


ps.What many people forget is that many peoples of the colonized world simply saw the second world war as war between European tribes, as a war of good vs evil, since they had brutally suffered under the hands of the allied colonies!
So wait were they allied with the Nazi regime because they thought the "colonial" world was evil or they allied themselves with the Allies even though they were evil? It has to be one of the other because there were a lot of battles on muslim soil. Be careful with your words as not to paint yourself in a corner.
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Omar_Mukhtar
04-07-2008, 06:41 PM
I made a typo, what I meant was that " as opposed to a war of good of evil". Many people would have seen the war as Europeans struggle over who controls the world.

Anyway, people were allied with different political groups due the locality, political desires and objectives. All of these actors need analyzing need and understanding in their in the historical contexts they occured. WHat made one man in East Africa fight for the Italians and one another fight for the British? Because one was a Facist and the other was a good guy? Propably not....



Some our self appointed historians will make statements such as, " Many Muslims were allied to Nazism" or "facts" such as, " Large populations in Palestine and Syria......". Thus making gross generalizations of entire groups of people and then expecting people to swallow these opinions as facts.

So put the evidence on the table: WERE the majority of Muslims( populations) allied to Nazism as you seem to be implying? Or am I misinterpreting your words?
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
I made a typo, what I meant was that " as opposed to a war of good of evil". Many people would have seen the war as Europeans struggle over who controls the world.

Anyway, people were allied with different political groups due the locality, political desires and objectives. All of these actors need analyzing need and understanding in their in the historical contexts they occured. WHat made one man in East Africa fight for the Italians and one another fight for the British? Because one was a Facist and the other was a good guy? Propably not....



Some our self appointed historians will make statements such as, " Many Muslims were allied to Nazism" or "facts" such as, " Large populations in Palestine and Syria......". Thus making gross generalizations of entire groups of people and then expecting people to swallow these opinions as facts.

So put the evidence on the table: WERE the majority of Muslims( populations) allied to Nazism as you seem to be implying? Or am I misinterpreting your words?
Majority and many are 2 different words with 2 different implications. One million people out of one billion would be many people but it would be a small minority would it not?
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Whatsthepoint
04-07-2008, 07:49 PM
People, WWI graves...!
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snakelegs
04-07-2008, 08:03 PM
it's horrible the level to which some will stoop in their blind hate.

i find this ironic:
In a similar attack in April 2007, Nazi slogans and swastikas were painted on about 50 graves in the Muslim section of the cemetery.
the jews and the muslims have the same enemies, but neither realize it.
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Izyan
04-07-2008, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
People, WWI graves...!
Sure let facts get in the way of a good argument.
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AvarAllahNoor
04-07-2008, 09:18 PM
It's not right!

''Muslims and members of other faiths gathered Monday to condemn the desecration of 148 Muslim graves'' At least they are bringing the Religious community together.

http://www.ejpress.org/article/26012
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Keltoi
04-07-2008, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Cherokee right? Founder of the Native American Church. Dealt heavily in Peyote.
Comanche actually. I believe he was credited with founding the church though.
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Amadeus85
04-07-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Izyan
Yes and no. There was a large muslim population in Palestine, Syria, and Iraq that were Pro Nazi. They saw the Nazis as a great partner to realize their dream of Greater Syria.
Accusing muslims of supporting nazism is highly wrong, because do we want it or not, nazism was our european thing and invention. Thats why we should bow our heads in shame and not accusing others.
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Keltoi
04-08-2008, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Accusing muslims of supporting nazism is highly wrong, because do we want it or not, nazism was our european thing and invention. Thats why we should bow our heads in shame and not accusing others.
What is more important to consider is what set the framework for a Nazi war machine in the first place...which was dire economic hardship and a victim mentality left over from WWI. Those who have picked up the mantle of Nazism are usually outcast teens who feel like they are victims of a multicultural state. We should never underestimate the influence this kind of stuff has on youth. In fact, Hitler was considered a political comedy before the rise of the Third Reich and the invasion of Poland.
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Muezzin
04-08-2008, 02:25 PM
Respected brothers, sisters and dudes,

Please let us not drive this topic... off-topic with excessive talk about the holocaust, the Nazi regime and Commanche. It will result in the most heinous removals of your most savoury posts that you have put much work and effort into.

This topic is about the most non-triumphant desecrations of French Muslim war graves.

Be excellent to each other and party on dudes!
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Keltoi
04-08-2008, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Respected brothers, sisters and dudes,

Please let us not drive this topic... off-topic with excessive talk about the holocaust, the Nazi regime and Commanche. It will result in the most heinous removals of your most savoury posts that you have put much work and effort into.

This topic is about the most non-triumphant desecrations of French Muslim war graves.

Be excellent to each other and party on dudes!
Well, I believe the Nazi aspect was brought up because those who desecrated these graves are more than likely neo-nazis, or of similar ideology. There are more of them around than one might think.
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Fishman
04-14-2008, 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
In fact, Hitler was considered a political comedy before the rise of the Third Reich and the invasion of Poland.
:sl:
Hitler was a serious problem way before the invasion of Poland. Britain and France just insisted on appeasing him until then.

before the Great Depression, on the other hand, he was a joke. He had tried to take over the country by force and failed, and the country had recovered so much that nobody felt any need to vote for extremist parties. It was only when the economic situation swung back out of control that people started becoming desperate and voted for the Nazis or the Communists.
:w:
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Keltoi
04-15-2008, 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Hitler was a serious problem way before the invasion of Poland. Britain and France just insisted on appeasing him until then.

before the Great Depression, on the other hand, he was a joke. He had tried to take over the country by force and failed, and the country had recovered so much that nobody felt any need to vote for extremist parties. It was only when the economic situation swung back out of control that people started becoming desperate and voted for the Nazis or the Communists.
:w:
I was referring to international opinion, not in terms of the German people. The German people knew why they elected Hitler, although they had no idea what his intentions were in regards to the Holocaust. Before the Nazi war machine really started taking off, most international observers thought he was ridiculous and there were numerous parodies of him in early films.
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truemuslim
04-15-2008, 03:46 AM
lets show them the inside of a grave .... *evil face here*
and lets introduce to them the ppl they did that to
*ghetto evil face here*
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Trumble
04-15-2008, 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
People, WWI graves...!
I don't think the distinction matters. The target of the vandals was not muslim veterans of either war (whichever side they happened to be on) but muslims today.
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Whatsthepoint
04-15-2008, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
I don't think the distinction matters. The target of the vandals was not muslim veterans of either war (whichever side they happened to be on) but muslims today.
Yeh.
I just wanted to stop all the "who allied with the nazis" stuff.
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Fishman
04-15-2008, 06:29 PM
:sl:
So what if some Muslims did ally with the Nazis anyway? some westerners allied with the Nazis as well. There was a fight between Jews and socialists and the British Nazis on Cable Street. Luckily they were imprisoned for the duration of the war.

Hitler knew the Arabs didn't get on well with the Zionists, so he probably just pretended to be on their side so he could get allies to help him. After that, he would have probably betrayed the Arabs just like he did the Soviet Union, after all, Arabs are just as Semetic as Jews.
:w:
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