Why doesn't God Stop all the suffering on Earth?

[Nerd]

If I ask you to explain all the suffering on this earth (human and otherwise) despite God’s tenure of all His divine abilities and mercifulness,

You would present the standard apologists’ response; God’s divine psyche does not have to be on par with that of the human or more specifically, God does not necessarily have the very human emotion of empathy.

Which I could rebuff by highlighting the various similarities (that I could draw) between the divine and human ‘minds’:
jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
and the most controversial, vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

So if God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering and certain doom?

[barney]

I remember posting something similar about the Tsunami in 2005 that wiped out 700000 people.
It diddnt get many replies, but the one I remember is "Perhaps it was their time" and "Perhaps the children who died would have grown up as sinners"
The best answer in my opinion was "God Knows Best"

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Nerd;

We all die at some point, and yes we look on the Tsunami as catastrophic, but will the victims of the tsunami have something greater in a life after death?

I think if you attach to much importance to our short life on Earth then you may overlook a possible answer. If you have a faith in God, the solution might be in how God is preparing us for a greater life after death.

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God

Eric

[glo]

Hi Nerd

I don't think you will ever get a safisfactory answer to that question. That's because we just cannot fathom God's ways from our human perspectives.

We try. With answers such as "Perhaps it was their time" and "Perhaps the children who died would have grown up as sinners" ... and how terribly judgmental and patronising those answers sound. :-[

I am imagining how I might feel, if a loved one had died in some terrrible accident, and somebody gave a response such as this to me. I would probably be screaming mad angry!

I guess in times of suffering and tragedy we might well question God and our faith.
Some may turn their back and lose their faith.
Others may gain an acceptance that despite the terrible thing that has happened, God is still in it; God is still good; God is still loving; and God has a purpose. (As my Muslim friends here put it so well, God knows best)

But that's a decision each has to make for themselves. To put it upon other would probably be patronising and insulting ...

(As a sidenote, you have to remember that Christians (I am not too sure about Islamic teaching on this one) believe that one day indeed there will be no more pain or suffering or tears ... however, not in this earthly life ...)

Peace

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[crayon]

As muslims, we believe that all this life is simply a test. You are tested with hardships along the way, and you have to be patient and thankful if you want to reach heaven.

If life was all rainbows and sunshine, what would be the point of it all?

[ranma1/2]

so what would be the point of the afterlife if its all rainbows and sunshine?

[------]

:salamext:

^ You get rewarded/punished for the deeds you did in this life.

[crayon]

The afterlife is not all rainbows and sunshine, hence heaven and hell. The after life exists so that justice can be served. Those who followed the correct path will be rewarded, those that did not will be punished. Because yes, Allah is compassionate and merciful, but he is also just. Those that passed the test do not deserve the same end as those that did not.

[Malaikah]

Crayon said it well. The whole point of this life is that there will be hardships, this life was never created for us to have nothing but ease. this was God's intention all along. That is what paradise is for.

That being said, just because something bad happens to use, doesn't mean there isn't good that comes from it, as highlighted by this story from the Quran:

65. Then they found one of Our slaves, unto whom We had bestowed mercy from Us, and whom We had taught knowledge from Us.

66. Mûsa (Moses) said to him (Khidr) "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge (guidance and true path) which you have been taught (by Allâh)?"

67. He (Khidr) said: "Verily! You will not be able to have patience with me!

68. "And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"

69. Mûsa (Moses) said: "If Allâh will, you will find me patient, and I will not disobey you in aught."

70. He (Khidr) said: "Then, if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention it to you."

71. So they both proceeded, till, when they embarked the ship, he (Khidr) scuttled it. Mûsa (Moses) said: "Have you scuttled it in order to drown its people? Verily, you have committed a thing "Imra" (a Munkar - evil, bad, dreadful thing)."

72. He (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you, that you would not be able to have patience with me?"

73. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "Call me not to account for what I forgot[], and be not hard upon me for my affair (with you)."

74. Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Mûsa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukra" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"

75. (Khidr) said: "Did I not tell you that you can have no patience with me?"

76. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "If I ask you anything after this, keep me not in your company, you have received an excuse from me."

77. Then they both proceeded, till, when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them. Then they found therein a wall about to collapse and he (Khidr) set it up straight. [Mûsa (Moses)] said: If you had wished, surely, you could have taken wages for it!"

78. (Khidr) said: "This is the parting between me and you, I will tell you the interpretation of (those) things over which you were unable to hold patience.

79. "As for the ship, it belonged to Masâkîn (poor people) working in the sea. So I wished to make a defective damage in it, as there was a king after them who seized every ship by force.

80. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

81. "So we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in righteousness and near to mercy.

82. "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the town; and there was under it a treasure belonging to them; and their father was a righteous man, and your Lord intended that they should attain their age of full strength and take out their treasure as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of those (things) over which you could not hold patience."

chapter 18.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

you might aswell ask why God doesnt just make earth a heaven then.

This place isnt the final resting place, its a testing ground.

simple...

[Keltoi]

Just think of the phrase "natural disaster." Is God to blame for every tree that falls, every rock and mudslide, and every hurricane? In one aspect, yes, since He was the source of all natural creation. The question would be, is God responsible for making the tree fall on you in the woods? Or is God responsible for not saving you from the falling tree? I think we all agree that God could save you from the falling tree if that was His wish. Fundamentally it comes down to whether one believes in predestination or not. Is everything that you do and everything that is done to you all part of God's divine will? Somehow I'm going to conclude we don't know the answer to that question.

[Malaikah]

Fundamentally it comes down to whether one believes in predestination or not. Is everything that you do and everything that is done to you all part of God's divine will? Somehow I'm going to conclude we don't know the answer to that question.

Actually the Islamic answer to that question is yes.:thumbs_up

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Evil is not attributed to Allah because He has legislated that we do good, and call against evil.


Mankind does evil, out of disobedience to Allah. Yet man has been given the choice of picking good over evil or evil over good. If he does good, he is rewarded, if he does evil - he is punished, yet He is the Most Merciful to those who regret and mend their ways.

And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks (Exalted be You above all that they associate with You as partners) and sanctify You." He (Allâh) said: "I know that which you do not know."

[Qur'an 2:30]

It may be that there is a great deal of good through this thing which we percieve as evil. Yet Allah has not made this world as an eternal home. He has sent us Messengers and ordered us to believe in them, and follow them. He has placed in this world good and bad to trial His servants on their sincerety to Him, and every soul has been destined death - then we will return to Him and be informed of all that we did, and no-one will be dealt with unjustly. Each will be given a recompense of what they used to do.

[Keltoi]

Actually the Islamic answer to that question is yes.:thumbs_up

Perhaps I shouldn't have said "we"...:D

If one believes every single incident in one's life is dictated by God, how does one explain the small every day trials...like a paper cut, the common cold, a wasp sting, ....the Brown Recluse spider that bit me the other day..etc, etc. I don't know...I have a hard time thinking that God is interested in putting me through mundane trials like stubbing my toe...I think human free will and natural chance play a huge role in all of this. Of course that doesn't mean God doesn't know what happens or is going to happen to you.

*I'm speaking as a philosophical human...not a representation of theology. :D

[Gator]

What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?

[Malaikah]

Well, life wouldn't exactly be 'realistic' without 'mundane trials', will it? :?

Anyway, in Islam, we believe all hardships, no matter how small, expiate a persons sins, so that paper cut and spider bit might have just wiped out a couple of sins committed a few days ago...

[Keltoi]

Well, life wouldn't exactly be 'realistic' without 'mundane trials', will it? :?

Anyway, in Islam, we believe all hardships, no matter how small, expiate a persons sins, so that paper cut and spider bit might have just wiped out a couple of sins committed a few days ago...

Interesting way of looking at it

[- Qatada -]

People are trialled through ease and hardship. Your children, family and wealth are a trust from Allah which you, and every other will be questioned about, and everyone is trialled in their own way.

Each person will be judged by the Most Just,the same way they were born, lived and died alone, they will be ressurected alone. Each step of your life is a trial, and every breath you have in life is a chance for you to redeem yourself. But every soul has a time in which it will taste death, and then there will be no turning back. What you had earned during this passing abode will be what will be brought forth along with you on the Day of Recompense.


No-one will be dealt with unjustly, so whatever you face in life - Allah is aware of it. If you were forced or coerced into something evil - then He is the Knowing, Aware of that, and He will not hold you responsible for that, but doing evil out of choice will be a source of regret for the evildoer. Each person will be judged independently, their own life will be what they will be judged for, not anothers. Therefore each has his/her own responsibility, and each can only succeed by obedience to Allah and His Messenger.



His slave & Messenger calls to what is good, and calls away from evil. He unites mankind on what they differed, by the will of Allah. He calls them to be sincere to God, and to establish the prayer and to give in charity. He calls them to upholding the ties of the family, and to help the needy. He is known as the most truthful (Al-Ameen) by even those who opposed him, because he was brought up and lived among them.

He warned us of the consequences of our actions and deeds in this life, and that we are responsible for them. And he gave glad tidings of reward and mercy to those who believed and did good for the pleasure of their Lord, while warning of a severe punishment in the life to come, for those who rejected the Promise of their Lord.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

It is up to God who lives and who dies - noone else.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

No, you are to learn from the test. I will give a personal example. At As and A level accounts, during college years, I was the shiznit. No joke - at one point, I taught the class room. You could ask anyone in that college about me (even those not in my year --- hell, one time a student who was 1 year above me asked for my help on accounts due to my reputation) and they'd say: yes, he is the absolute shiznit at accounts. The exam comes, I get an E. I did everything in my ability to ascertain an A (note; from my actions, I was a master at accounts at the time as already illustrated). Heck, there were people in my class who were absolute crap at accounts and still managed to beat me overall. Noone (not even the teachers, who admitted I was the shiznit in all my parents evenings) knows why I got an E - I personally thing the examiner was on crack but that's by the by. Yeah it ticked me right off - I freakin cried like a baby (for 5 minutes) because of it.

But, that's the way it goes. The example I gave was to illustrate that you can do everything in your power to succeed but one time you will fail. Is that to purely make you suffer? No. It is to teach you something - which is individual for every person who goes through that test.

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Absolutely. Many beings let alone human get a fair shot at life. Thus, God has blessed us with compassion and consideration for all His creations. And as such we should show this through our actions.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?

Only God can answer this.

If we are not tested then how do we know where we stand? Also, who is to say that SID syndrome is just to test the parents of that child? What if you or I are also being tested. That's the way I approach it at least.

As for the topic; I believe someone stated it before: the question could also be phrased as why not just plunk us all in heaven or hell. It is simple; we as humans have to first help them. God will aid us (this is because this life is a test for US!)

[YusufNoor]

If I ask you to explain all the suffering on this earth (human and otherwise) despite God’s tenure of all His divine abilities and mercifulness, You would present the standard apologists’ response; God’s divine psyche does not have to be on par with that of the human or more specifically, God does not necessarily have the very human emotion of empathy.

Which I could rebuff by highlighting the various similarities (that I could draw) between the divine and human ‘minds’:
jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
and the most controversial, vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

So if God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering and certain doom?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i disagree with the premise that Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] has not done everything in HIS power to save us. HE DID send thousands upon thousands of Prophets and and hundreds of Messengers to warn, educate and save mankind. so why do we blame HIM when it is us that refuse to obey HIM? we have the free will to disobey and we appear to take full advantage of it, so why whine about the consequences UNLESS you do YOUR PART by returning to Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] and accepting the guidance the HE provided via HIS Messenger, Muhammad ibn Abdullah [Salla Allahu Alayhe Wa Salaam]?

regarding items such as the tsunami, i remember a lecture by Mufti Ismail ibn Musa Menk. in it he presented the the plight of those who were caught in sin at the moment of the disaster and the martyrdom of those who were in Ibadah at the same moment. also in the second volume of the Ma'ariful Qur'an we are told (although the ayat escapes me at the moment) that we will die as we have lived So if you have Ikhlas and Sabr and perform all of your responsibilities that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] will take you upon that state. if you shirk your responsibilities and are careless with your Ibadah, you have no such promise.

we tend to compare INFINITY in the Akhira with a few miserable years in the dunya! we tend to deny that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] will judge us or that HE even hast the RIGHT to judge us, yet we have no worries about judging HIM! Nowoothu Billah!

Gator wrote
What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?

you don't believe in Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala], so there no way you are going to know that 3 year old will be in Jannah, nor will you understand the concept of Allah's[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] justice. it actually appears that YOU are the one denying them justice by denying the ONE who, provides justice.

it is YOU that claims the victim of SIDS has been somehow shortchanged or that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is somehow unfair. all of your misconceptions are based upon your denial of Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala]!

La Ilaha Ilah Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah could change all of that, but we have no power to convince you of that. you have to change yourself first...

:w:

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

he exam comes, I get an E.

woahh! i'm shocked bro :omg:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

ok lets step back for a second


God created earth

likewise he has the ability to create more.

he understands every emotion and is all just.

he has granted a respite till the day of judgement to dwell in freedom and do good.

The suffering which occurs in between will be recompensed at the end of the respite.


whats hard to understand? people just need to get their heads round a "day of judgement" and its all good.

[Gator]

you don't believe in Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala], so there no way you are going to know that 3 year old will be in Jannah, nor will you understand the concept of Allah's[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] justice. it actually appears that YOU are the one denying them justice by denying the ONE who, provides justice.

it is YOU that claims the victim of SIDS has been somehow shortchanged or that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is somehow unfair. all of your misconceptions are based upon your denial of Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala]!

I'm just showing my thought process in regards to your ideas about the nature of god in relation to the fact that suffering exists. The argument that "only god knows" just doesn't do for me

La Ilaha Ilah Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah could change all of that, but we have no power to convince you of that. you have to change yourself first...

I am as god made me.

:w:

Thanks.

[crayon]

What about the 3 year old that dies of cancer. That's her test?!

There's definitely a survivorship bias in this idea.

Everyone thinks this is a test and that you suffer through the hardships. Well, what about the people who don't make. What if they had lived and redeemed themselves?

The idea is everyone gets there fair shot, which is hardly the case.

Is Sudden Infant Death Syndrome a test for the parents and screw the little kid?

In islam, any child that dies before reaching puberty goes straight to heaven. In the situation being described, the people being tested are the parents.

"With regard to where the children who have died are – are they in the seventh heaven with Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) or in their graves?

What has been narrated concerning that is the hadeeth of Samurah ibn Jundub (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) often used to say to his companions: “Has anyone among you seen a dream?” and whoever Allaah willed would tell him what he had seen. One day he said: “Last night two people came to me and made me get up, and they said to me: ‘Let’s go.’ So I set off with them…” He mentioned things that he had seen, then he said:

“We set off, and we came to a verdant garden, in which were all the colours of spring, where there was a man who was so tall that I could hardly see his head in the sky. Around the man was the largest number of children I had ever seen…” Then among things that the two angels explained to him was: “As for the tall man who was in the garden, that was Ibraaheem. As for the children who were around him, these are all the children who died in a state of fitrah.” One of the Muslims said: “O Messenger of Allaah, what about the children of the mushrikeen?” He said: “And the children of the mushrikeen.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7047).

This hadeeth indicates that whoever dies before reaching the age of puberty is in Paradise under the care of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), not that he is in the seventh heaven. "

edit- source http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=71175&ln=eng

[Gator]

This hadeeth indicates that whoever dies before reaching the age of puberty is in Paradise under the care of Ibraaheem (peace be upon him), not that he is in the seventh heaven. "

edit- source http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=71175&ln=eng

I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.

[TrueStranger]

If I ask you to explain all the suffering on this earth (human and otherwise) despite God’s tenure of all His divine abilities and mercifulness,

You would present the standard apologists’ response; God’s divine psyche does not have to be on par with that of the human or more specifically, God does not necessarily have the very human emotion of empathy.

Which I could rebuff by highlighting the various similarities (that I could draw) between the divine and human ‘minds’:
jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
and the most controversial, vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

So if God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering and certain doom?

Salaaam Nerd.

You are on this world so you could be tested. To separate the good from the evil, the oppressors from the oppressed, the just from the unjust, and so forth.

And what do you think the Day of Judgment is for? Allah if He Willed could truly make us all believers, but we Humans are being tested, and we will have to answer for the atrocities which he committed and reward for the suffering we endured with patience.

Those who suffer in this world, fear Allah, obey Allah, put their trust in Allah and those who are patient are the ones which will enter paradise.

Suffering, just like happiness is part of the test. Will you disbelieve because calamity touched you, or will you disbelieve because your riches occupy your mind 24/7.

A true believer, will believe in Allah while suffering from a disease, occupation, torture, poverty, and he/she will put their trust in Allah, for Allah sees what we do.

So fear not, the ultimate Judge is Allah, and He is the Best of Judges. Suffering is just part of the test, hold-fast, for Allah doesn’t forsake those who believe in HIM with clear certainty.

I am from Somalia, and you can’t possibly talk to me about suffering, and never ending war, poverty, chaos, and occupation. Who listens to the cries of the thousands of mothers who saw their children dying, their daughters raped, their husbands killed, their fathers tortured other than Allah? Who listens to the cries of the thousands of orphans who walk bare feet, half-dressed on the blood-stained hot cracked roads of Mogadishu with empty bellies other than Allah? Who listens to the cries of fathers, who watch as their daughters being brutally raped and their wives dying in their arms other than Allah?

Do not despair of Allah’s Mercy

Salaaam

[TrueStranger]

I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.

Don't you know that a child goes straight to Heaven? Allah knows what is best for His Slaves.

Allah tests us in all ages, old and young will die.

[crayon]

I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.

Why would a child's soul need to grow and learn from its mistakes if it's going to heaven no matter what? What benefit would be gained from giving someone a biology test if they've already got their high school diploma?

[Gator]

This is a tricky question for me to get across.

The child isn't developed? Why didn't it get a chance to develop. If you assume a islamic god, there has to be a point of life right? The child just died. It didn't get a chance to grow into other stages. To experience all the stages of life? Why not?

[crayon]

I understand what you mean, I'm just finding the answer hard to get across hah.

Here's a horrible example, but it's the best I have for now. Animals are alive, yes? What is their purpose in life? They provide us with things we need, such as food and clothing. But essentially, they are a part of this world. In the hereafter, they will not be judged. They will give each other what they owe (if a horned animal attacked a hornless one, the hornless one will be given horns and the chance to get even). Then they are turned to dust. In the same way, a child will not be judged. It is like an animal in that sense.. am I making sense or just rambling?

[TrueStranger]

This is a tricky question for me to get across.

The child isn't developed? Why didn't it get a chance to develop. If you assume a islamic god, there has to be a point of life right? The child just died. It didn't get a chance to grow into other stages. To experience all the stages of life? Why not?

Define developed? Do you mean physically, or religious wise? And you can’t keep asking ‘why’. It is the will of Allah. Allah showers His Mercy on whoever He wants. Children die, just like the old die. Some of us return to our Creator earlier than others. The hereafter is certainly better than this world. And did you forget that we all have our appointed time? You can’t question death, when it comes it comes, that is why you have to always be prepared.

Again “Allah knows what is best for His Slaves”

Hope that helps

[aadil77]

As muslims, we believe that all this life is simply a test. You are tested with hardships along the way, and you have to be patient and thankful if you want to reach heaven.

If life was all rainbows and sunshine, what would be the point of it all?

Best answer - Simple and Clear

I'd like to add that all the hardships aren't for nothing, people who pass the test will be rewarded according to what they did

[Keltoi]

It is always difficult to address the question "Why is there so much suffering if an all knowing and loving God is in charge?"

I'm sure it is difficult for an athiest or agnostic to accept the answers put forth here. There seems to be so much senseless suffering in the world. I believe I saw a statistic which stated that a child dies of starvation every second of the day somewhere in the world. Perhaps instead of blaming God for these events, we should blame ourselves. Especially when it comes to starvation and violence. We as human beings have the ability to stop these things...but we don't. That isn't God, that is us.

When it comes to child mortality, disease, etc...that is more difficult to answer. We can come up with theologic philosophy about redemption and tests...but it is hard to accept that as an athiest or agnostic I'm sure.

[aadil77]

This is a tricky question for me to get across.

The child isn't developed? Why didn't it get a chance to develop. If you assume a islamic god, there has to be a point of life right? The child just died. It didn't get a chance to grow into other stages. To experience all the stages of life? Why not?

Well that child is lucky, I'd rather die as a child because I would be absolutley sinless and Paradise would be guaranteed for me, this could be considered as a mercy from God,

The death of the child could be a test for its parents, God knows best

[aadil77]

It is always difficult to address the question "Why is there so much suffering if an all knowing and loving God is in charge?"

I'm sure it is difficult for an athiest or agnostic to accept the answers put forth here. There seems to be so much senseless suffering in the world. I believe I saw a statistic which stated that a child dies of starvation every second of the day somewhere in the world. Perhaps instead of blaming God for these events, we should blame ourselves. Especially when it comes to starvation and violence. We as human beings have the ability to stop these things...but we don't. That isn't God, that is us.

When it comes to child mortality, disease, etc...that is more difficult to answer. We can come up with theologic philosophy about redemption and tests...but it is hard to accept that as an athiest or agnostic I'm sure.

I've read in the Quran somewhere, (bros'sisis prvide evidence please)
that someone asked the prophet why did God not remove the poor from poverty, God says that he could have if he willed, but it was a test for mankind, no one would be able to give charity or help the poor and they could n't be tested in that way

btw not 100% accurate, need to find evidence

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

To me this would be the best explanation. Imagine if there was no suffering, no evil in the world. Imagine if everything was perfect, how would you as a human being ever have the chance to help one another? If everyone had perfect lives, no problems, no fears, we would all mind our business and have no reason to give charity, be kind to one another, help one another. If everything was so darn good and nothing bad ever happened, we would never have the opportunity to do good with each other. For example all the helpless people in places like Africa or war driven countries, we wouldnt think twice to look that way or think about them if they lived a life without problems. We wouldnnt learn from our mistakes, grow the courage to do better, or struggle or any of it. Honestly, thats the best thing I can think of, for me to understand why things are the way they are. Im not even saying thats all right, because God has given us a choice to do good or bad. You do good and u will be rewarded for that and do bad youll be punished. This is why as Muslims we believe life is a test for us. Well thats the best I can explain it. Hope u get the idea.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Well that child is lucky, I'd rather die as a child because I would be absolutley sinless and Paradise would be guaranteed for me, this could be considered as a mercy from God,

The death of the child could be a test for its parents, God knows best

Do you think a 2-year-old child is mentally capable of grasping all that paradise has to offer? Do toddlers understand concepts like Allah, mercy...? What exactly is the purpose of ehaven in Islam? simply pleasure or is there a place for theological experience too?
Muslims believe every child is born a muslim, but where exactly do you believe the knowledge of Isalm is stored. Do you even believe being born a muslim means having the knowledge or is it just a state of innocence?

And if the child in question is a boy, how old will his virgins be? will he get any?
Do children grow up in heaven?

[truemuslim]

Do you think a 2-year-old child is mentally capable of grasping all that paradise has to offer? Do toddlers understand concepts like Allah, mercy...? What exactly is the purpose of ehaven in Islam? simply pleasure or is there a place for theological experience too?
Muslims believe every child is born a muslim, but where exactly do you believe the knowledge of Isalm is stored. Do you even believe being born a muslim means having the knowledge or is it just a state of innocence?

And if the child in question is a boy, how old will his virgins be? will he get any?
Do children grow up in heaven?

i think ur supposed to be 33 in heaven or something like that


nevermind. ignore

[crayon]

"Whoever buries three children, Allah will forbid the Fire for him." (Saheeh, Tabarani in al-Kabeer, Al-Albani authenticated it in Saheeh Al-Jaami' (6238).)

"There are no two Muslim parents whose three children die before reaching puberty except that Allah will enter them into Paradise due to His mercy to the children. It will be said to them, "Enter the Paradise", so they will say, "Not until our parents enter first". It will be said, "Enter the Paradise you and your parents." (Ahmad, an-Nasaa'i, and Al-Albani authenticated it in Saheeh al-Jaami' (5780).)

"'Whoever iHtasaba (remains content and patient after the death of) three of his offspring will enter Jannah.' A woman said, 'What about two?' He said, 'And two.'" (Saheeh, an-Nasaa'i, Ibn Hibban, authenticated by al-Albani in Saheeh al-Jaami (5969).)

"To no woman three children die and she remains patient and content, except that she will enter Jannah. Or two (children)." (Muslim)

Put it this way. Children that die young are the test paper for their parents. That is their purpose.

[Whatsthepoint]

"Whoever buries three children, Allah will forbid the Fire for him." (Saheeh, Tabarani in al-Kabeer, Al-Albani authenticated it in Saheeh Al-Jaami' (6238).)

"There are no two Muslim parents whose three children die before reaching puberty except that Allah will enter them into Paradise due to His mercy to the children. It will be said to them, "Enter the Paradise", so they will say, "Not until our parents enter first". It will be said, "Enter the Paradise you and your parents." (Ahmad, an-Nasaa'i, and Al-Albani authenticated it in Saheeh al-Jaami' (5780).)

"'Whoever iHtasaba (remains content and patient after the death of) three of his offspring will enter Jannah.' A woman said, 'What about two?' He said, 'And two.'" (Saheeh, an-Nasaa'i, Ibn Hibban, authenticated by al-Albani in Saheeh al-Jaami (5969).)

"To no woman three children die and she remains patient and content, except that she will enter Jannah. Or two (children)." (Muslim)

Put it this way. Children that die young are the test paper for their parents. That is their purpose.

So, technically, parents who lost 3+ children can do whathever they want?
Patience is mentioned in one of three hadiths only.

[crayon]

No, of course not. All hadiths and ayas that mention hardships, the reward can only be gained by patience, that's a given. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned every time. :P

and btw, children remain children in heaven.

[barney]

I'm stepping well outside the theist ring on this one.
The child isnt aware of allah, cant grasp the concept of paradise,(I cant and I'm 39)They can understand pain and agony as they slowly die.

Their purpose in life is to feel pain. Wonderful.
Evrything is OK, because if God wills it, she is in paradise?

I notice that some people seem a bit embarrassed about their answers to this one.
As I think Ranma said "If Life-all -rainbows is pointless...what use is heaven". Not Hell: Heaven.
If pain of stubbing Keltoi's toes wipes out him looking at a Hot Chick last week, why dosnt he just start twisting thumbscrews on himself or going the full opus-dai.

Lets take the 2005 Tsunami: Lets take the position that an all powerful, all merciful, loving benevolent God is in charge of all that is on earth.
I find it farcical to think that along four coastlines on that day, 700,000 people who "deserved to die" or their "Time was due" or had "Sinned Greatly" all gathered together and died within 6 hours because God was responsible for it.

Y'know, I think a few good people might have died that day, people with something good to give to the world.
If he was then I'd love someone to try and explain the mercy in that.

"It's a test for their families", "we are not to try and reason why" "Gods ways are not our ways"

If I accepted a God being capable of doing any of this, I'd book my place on Doom Hotel, Fire Boulavard, Flame street, Hell Number 4, because morally, I not only wouldnt want to accosiate myself with such a deity, I'd want to be as far as possible from it.

[Whatsthepoint]

No, of course not. All hadiths and ayas that mention hardships, the reward can only be gained by patience, that's a given. It's so obvious it doesn't need to be mentioned every time. :P

and btw, children remain children in heaven.

Ok, what will they do in paradise? Dring from the wine filled rivers? Have sex with virgins? Play with letter cubes?

[- Qatada -]

If pain of stubbing Keltoi's toes wipes out him looking at a Hot Chick last week, why dosnt he just start twisting thumbscrews on himself or going the full opus-dai.

Self harm is forbidden in Islam, therefore no.

Lets take the 2005 Tsunami: Lets take the position that an all powerful, all merciful, loving benevolent God is in charge of all that is on earth.
I find it farcical to think that along four coastlines on that day, 700,000 people who "deserved to die" or their "Time was due" or had "Sinned Greatly" all gathered together and died within 6 hours because God was responsible for it.

Y'know, I think a few good people might have died that day, people with something good to give to the world.
If he was then I'd love someone to try and explain the mercy in that.

"It's a test for their families", "we are not to try and reason why" "Gods ways are not our ways"

When sins become widespread, and people do not enjoin the good and forbid the evil - then Allah will punish the people. Then everyone will be raised up in account of what they did in this life.

[Danah]

So, technically, parents who lost 3+ children can do whathever they want?
Patience is mentioned in one of three hadiths only.

well the patience is not meaning that they can do whatever they want
patience in Islam keep worship Allah and ask him for forgiveness. ask him also to give us the strength to be a good patience when we are put through hard times. There is no point if the patience is do whatever you like.

to clarify that: the Parent lose their child and they are sad to death. if they are totally free to do whatever they want they can easily end their life because they cant continue living without their lovely child. This will be a great sin (Suicide) so its not patience at all

hope that is clear

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Sometimes we tend to indulge in blessings, forgetting that they are tests. Through our lack of appreciation, we allow Shaytan to make us into ungrateful servants.

Then I will certainly come to them from before them and from behind them, and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful. (Al-A`raf 7:17)

Whether Allah Most High gives us everything or takes something away, it is a trial. Every hardship is a blessing, and we should look at everything from both sides. We should not ignore the other side when we are faced with an adversity or given a blessing.

It is not for fun that Allah created the universe and everything in it. It was for a purpose. And also Allah does not benefit from our good deeds; it is we ourselves who benefit. And likewise, Allah is not harmed in any way by our wicked ways; it is we ourselves who face the consequences of our actions.

[aadil77]

Do you think a 2-year-old child is mentally capable of grasping all that paradise has to offer? Do toddlers understand concepts like Allah, mercy...? What exactly is the purpose of ehaven in Islam? simply pleasure or is there a place for theological experience too?
Muslims believe every child is born a muslim, but where exactly do you believe the knowledge of Isalm is stored. Do you even believe being born a muslim means having the knowledge or is it just a state of innocence?

And if the child in question is a boy, how old will his virgins be? will he get any?
Do children grow up in heaven?

Everyone in heaven will be 33 years old as it is the optimum age when people are at their best health, the 2 year old doesn't have to grasp what paradise has to offer because he has been saved from possibly going to hell,

and being born muslim isn't about having all knowledge of islam stored in you, its about being pure and favoured by God until the child grows old enough decide between whats wrong and whats right

[aadil77]

Ok, what will they do in paradise? Dring from the wine filled rivers? Have sex with virgins? Play with letter cubes?

mate what are you trying to get at here, why don't you describe christian paradise to us then, i'm sure its much more fun?
paradise is nothing we can imagine those are only a few verses, they don't have to satisfy everyone, you can ask for whatever you wish within limits:D

[Mikayeel]

For everyone who complains! Just to remaind you, that if you arent paying to any charity that you should start doing so! If you are, carry on doing so.

We are responsible for one another!

[TrueStranger]

I'm stepping well outside the theist ring on this one.
The child isnt aware of allah, cant grasp the concept of paradise,(I cant and I'm 39)They can understand pain and agony as they slowly die.

How do you know that a child isn’t aware of Allah? Neither you nor I have any knowledge about what children/babies know about Allah. Age has nothing to do with, some people just don’t believe, and they won’t believe till the day of Judge, and by then it is too late. For all we know Allah maybe easing their pain and agony. What do you have about children dying young? Or them returning to their Creator earlier than others? There is nothing horrible, sadistic, or unbelievable about this. Death is just the beginning, not the end. Returning to your Lord.

Their purpose in life is to feel pain. Wonderful.

Don’t you also feel joy, happiness, excitement, pleasure, and many other emotions which Allah has given us?

Evrything is OK, because if God wills it, she is in paradise?

Yes….

I notice that some people seem a bit embarrassed about their answers to this one.
As I think Ranma said "If Life-all -rainbows is pointless...what use is heaven". Not Hell: Heaven.
If pain of stubbing Keltoi's toes wipes out him looking at a Hot Chick last week, why dosnt he just start twisting thumbscrews on himself or going the full opus-dai.

There is really nothing to be embarrassed about. Stubbing his toes won’t wipe out anything.

Lets take the 2005 Tsunami: Lets take the position that an all powerful, all merciful, loving benevolent God is in charge of all that is on earth.
I find it farcical to think that along four coastlines on that day, 700,000 people who "deserved to die" or their "Time was due" or had "Sinned Greatly" all gathered together and died within 6 hours because God was responsible for it.

You are a person who doesn’t believe in God and to you this life is everything, and the ONLY thing you got, and death itself shatters and makes your life seem pointless. These 700,000 people weren’t the first ones to die, nor are they the last ones to die. Why does this come to you as a surprise? You are already told that every soul shall taste death. You know it and I know it, and we shall all return to Allah and He will Judge between us. Whether you believe in God or not, you will die, it could be from a mosquito bite or a natural disaster. God gave you life, and God can take life way from you, and God can bring you back to life again.

Y'know, I think a few good people might have died that day, people with something good to give to the world.

If they were good people, then I am certain that they had already given all they could give during their lifetime. And for that they will be reward. Their reward is with Allah, not you or I.

If he was then I'd love someone to try and explain the mercy in that.

In What? Death is nothing more than a way/journey back to Allah and being held accountable for what we did.

"It's a test for their families", "we are not to try and reason why" "Gods ways are not our ways"

If I accepted a God being capable of doing any of this, I'd book my place on Doom Hotel, Fire Boulavard, Flame street, Hell Number 4, because morally, I not only wouldnt want to accosiate myself with such a deity, I'd want to be as far as possible from it.

And I guess you're as far away from God as you believe you are. He is rich and free from all His creatures. You would have to find it out for yourself that you truly do need the One which has shaped and provided for you all you have today. You haven’t created yourself, nor did you create what you eat, the earth you live on, or the universe.

Peace

[Trumble]

The problem of evil, ancient as it is, is still by far the most convincing argument for the non-existence of God. It is what has always clinched it for me, as I find the usual theistic responses totally unconvincing.

Why does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God not stop all the suffering in the world, indeed?

Why was there any suffering in the first place? With such a God there was no need to be.

What is the supposed purpose of this "test"? An omnipotent God could easily arrange things so no test was needed as all of his creations would be only infinitesimally less perfect than Himself, all living in peace, harmony and tranquility. No war, no violence, no hatred, no suffering.

None of it makes sense in the context of an omnipotent, omnescient, omnibenevolent God. God therefore either lacks one or more of those qualities, or simply does not exist.

[aadil77]

The problem of evil, ancient as it is, is still by far the most convincing argument for the non-existence of God. It is what has always clinched it for me, as I find the usual theistic responses totally unconvincing.

Why does an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God not stop all the suffering in the world, indeed?

Why was there any suffering in the first place? With such a God there was no need to be.

What is the supposed purpose of this "test"? An omnipotent God could easily arrange things so no test was needed as all of his creations would be only infinitesimally less perfect than Himself, all living in peace, harmony and tranquility. No war, no violence, no hatred, no suffering.

None of it makes sense in the context of an omnipotent, omnescient, omnibenevolent God. God therefore either lacks one or more of those qualities, or simply does not exist.

Thing were like that until Adam and Eve were cast onto the earth after falling for satan, so now this world is test for us, the next world will be what you want it to be depending on your deeds, so free of suffering or the opposite

[truemuslim]

Why doesnt god stop all suffering on earth?
hm... interesting...
You know what else is interesting?
Why can't we live heaven on earth?
Why do you have to try when you make a goal in soccer?
What do you get when you try hard on your math test?
And after your done with all the grades, whats your reward?
Can you live your life perfectly without trying?
Can the questions on your test be easy?
Can you skim through all your years of school not trying?
Wondering why its so hard to do.
Why can't you get what you are going to get without trying?
Why do people ask extremely stupid questions?
AAND, are people getting stupider and stupider by the years?


*sigh*
i have no idea why i just did all that...

i guess some things can't make me wait, patiently and ignore?

[crayon]

What is the supposed purpose of this "test"? An omnipotent God could easily arrange things so no test was needed as all of his creations would be only infinitesimally less perfect than Himself, all living in peace, harmony and tranquility. No war, no violence, no hatred, no suffering.

AKA heaven. But not everyone deserves that, hence the testing.

"Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?"

[Trumble]

AKA heaven. But not everyone deserves that, hence the testing.

That's exactly my point. Certainly, taking people as they are, not everyone 'deserves' to go to heaven. But if there is a God, people are only that way because He decided they should be. Why create the imperfect when you could create the perfect?

[crayon]

You can't have joy without sadness. If everyone was happy, and we lived on heaven-like earth, we would have nothing to compare our emotions to. How could we be grateful to Allah if all we've ever known is happiness?

[Ghira]

There can be more reasons why there is suffering on Earth. Ultimately, God knows BEST, He is All-wise, All-knowing. We are here in this earth not to enjoy and be oblivious of after-life. We must know life is short, that is essential in someone who truly has faith in God and hereafter. Most people ignore that in life. With that said...

Suffering occurs because....

1) Sins of Man

[since they have become oblivious of God,] corruption has appeared on land and in the sea as an outcome of what men’s hands have wrought: and so He will let them taste [the evil of] some of their doings, so that they might return [to the right path]. (30:41)

And so, because of their sins, they (people of Noah) were drowned [in the great flood], and were doomed to suffer the fire [of the hereafter]; [16] and they found none who could succour them against God.(71:25)

2) Test

We will test you with a certain amount of fear and hunger and loss of wealth and life and fruits. But give good news to the steadfast. (2:155)
who, when calamity befalls them, say, "Verily, unto God do we belong and, verily, unto Him we shall return." [That statement is REALLY comforting].


3) God's wisdom of opposites. Cannot know peace and tranquility if you do not what suffering is. It is psychological hedonism, humans need to gain pleasure and to avoid as much pain/suffering as possible.

"Limitless in His glory is He who has created opposites in whatever the earth produces, and in men’s own selves, and in that of which [as yet] they have no knowledge." (36:36)

"When your Lord said to the angels, 'I am putting an overlord on the earth,' they said, 'Why put on it one who will cause corruption on it and shed blood when we glorify You with praise and proclaim Your purity?' He said, 'I know what you do not know." (2:30)

4) God to show His ultimate justice in the end for those who witness suffering.

Oh you who have faith! If you have taqwa (God-consciousness, righteousness), He will give you a discrimination and erase your bad actions from you and forgive you. Allah's favour is indeed immense. (Surat al-Anfal: 29)

"Any good thing that happens to you comes from Allah. Any bad thing that happens to you comes from yourself. We have sent you to mankind as a Messenger. Allah suffices as a Witness." (4:79)

Read Sura Tin. Chapter/Surah 95.

[barney]

How do you know that a child isn’t aware of Allah? Neither you nor I have any knowledge about what children/babies know about Allah. Age has nothing to do with, some people just don’t believe, and they won’t believe till the day of Judge, and by then it is too late. For all we know Allah maybe easing their pain and agony. What do you have about children dying young? Or them returning to their Creator earlier than others? There is nothing horrible, sadistic, or unbelievable about this. Death is just the beginning, not the end. Returning to your Lord.



Don’t you also feel joy, happiness, excitement, pleasure, and many other emotions which Allah has given us?

I know a child isnt aware of allah because it is born not knowing right from wrong, good from bad, how to speak or even how to get its thumb in its mouth.
If a child is suffering agony fom birth to its death after a week, what is it's Test? God knew it would be born in agony and then let it die after a week to taste paradise. A loving god would skip the week.
What do i have against them dying young?
Umm...they havnt had a crack at life. What possible chance have they had if theyre born on a tuesday and a tidal wave kills them on a thursday.
I experience happyness, joy and all the emotions avalible. God hasnt given me them. i make them for myself by my actions.





Yes….



There is really nothing to be embarrassed about. Stubbing his toes won’t wipe out anything.



You are a person who doesn’t believe in God and to you this life is everything, and the ONLY thing you got, and death itself shatters and makes your life seem pointless. These 700,000 people weren’t the first ones to die, nor are they the last ones to die. Why does this come to you as a surprise? You are already told that every soul shall taste death. You know it and I know it, and we shall all return to Allah and He will Judge between us. Whether you believe in God or not, you will die, it could be from a mosquito bite or a natural disaster. God gave you life, and God can take life way from you, and God can bring you back to life again.

I do beleive a God existed or even exists. The afterlife i'm uncertain about apart from it not being as described in scripture. My life is as pointless as i make it.
I'm told every soul shall face death? Err, yeah, I know we all die and thats not dependent on if I'm a Bush-baptist or a twentieth day adventist.
I die when I die, and Humans or disease or my own actions may bring about that. If i was to jump off a building now, has God still taken my life? wheres free will gone again?


If they were good people, then I am certain that they had already given all they could give during their lifetime. And for that they will be reward. Their reward is with Allah, not you or I.

There is absolutly no way you could know that. What! 700,000 people all suddenly had nothing further to give!
And I guess you're as far away from God as you believe you are. He is rich and free from all His creatures. You would have to find it out for yourself that you truly do need the One which has shaped and provided for you all you have today. You haven’t created yourself, nor did you create what you eat, the earth you live on, or the universe.

No I havnt. God created the universe. Do i need him? Not as he's decribed, no i dont.

Peace

Regards

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hmm no one liked my response I guess :S Was it that confusing? =|

[truemuslim]

Hmm no one liked my response I guess :S Was it that confusing? =|

lol i think mine was too..lol

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It was really straight to the point...no one responded to it is why Im curious.

[Ahmed.]

God is the Most Mercifull and he is also the Just; thus there will allways be consequences for peoples actions and since not all of mankinds actions are good [infact the majority of them are bad], then there is bound to be bad consequences [such as all the suffering in the world] as well as good ones.

Peace.

[barney]

To me this would be the best explanation. Imagine if there was no suffering, no evil in the world. Imagine if everything was perfect, how would you as a human being ever have the chance to help one another? If everyone had perfect lives, no problems, no fears, we would all mind our business and have no reason to give charity, be kind to one another, help one another. If everything was so darn good and nothing bad ever happened, we would never have the opportunity to do good with each other. For example all the helpless people in places like Africa or war driven countries, we wouldnt think twice to look that way or think about them if they lived a life without problems. We wouldnnt learn from our mistakes, grow the courage to do better, or struggle or any of it. Honestly, thats the best thing I can think of, for me to understand why things are the way they are. Im not even saying thats all right, because God has given us a choice to do good or bad. You do good and u will be rewarded for that and do bad youll be punished. This is why as Muslims we believe life is a test for us. Well thats the best I can explain it. Hope u get the idea.

Peace

It's got some great points in it.

Life is filled with ups and downs f'shizzle, this we all know. The problem comes when we try to attribute gods hand (if it has any hands) in everything we see.
My Mum says to me "I'm so blessed, God has really spoken to me. I was worried about the car Tax and now I got a rebate on my fuel bills to pay it with"
Fair do's. But the fact remains that her cat got flattened the same week. If god's hand is in all then God Killed her cat. Thats not a blessing, she's cut up about it, but beleives that it was tiggers time and that God had a purpose.

Sometimes, (very freaking often actually) things happen that no good comes from, or the good is outweighed by the bad a millionfold.

If we accept that the famine in Ethiopia was caused so that the British people could show generosity in donating food and clothes, we have to also consider that in order to show this generosity, God killed 4 million people.
It simply dosnt work.

If Serbia attacking the Kosovan Muslims was a chance for the West to help their fellow humans and stop milosovics evil reign, we have to pass the skinned bodies hanging from the churches as a neccessery sacrifice to a loving God.

[Gator]

Jazzy, in response to your reply. I would suggest breaking it up into at least 2 paragraphs next time.

I understand the argument of suffering makes us better. My question is why the young kids as a specific example? What have they learned and grown with for their suffering given their immature stage?

The answer's I've gotten are:
1) kids go to heaven. Which really doesn't answer the question I don't think.
2) As a test for the parents.
3) Only Allah knows.

So tackling number 2, god creates a soul, makes it suffer and brings it back to heaven for the sole purpose of teaching the parents a lesson.

Thanks.

[- Qatada -]

People are trialled, even if they are sinless (i.e. the Prophets) - yet it effects those around them. This trial increases their status in the next life, or if they sin - it removes their sins.


Our belief is that Adam and his wife ate from the tree, we were affected by that mistake because we came in this world. An example of how someone elses trial affected people of a later time. The same may be applied to this baby scenario.

[barney]

People are trialled, even if they are sinless (i.e. the Prophets) - yet it effects those around them. This trial increases their status in the next life, or if they sin - it removes their sins.


Our belief is that Adam and his wife ate from the tree, we were affected by that mistake because we came in this world. An example of how someone elses trial affected people of a later time. The same may be applied to this baby scenario.

So the baby with the tumour has the tumour because their parents sinned in some way?

[- Qatada -]

That doesn't necessarily have to be the case - since sins don't pass on from one person to another, i just said its likely that a future generation is affected by a previous one (that's obvious from what we see around us.) And i don't know why the kid had the tumour, so i'd just say Allah knows best.


Anyways, i gota go now.




Peace.

[Keltoi]

I heard an interesting debate on this topic earlier this morning on the radio. A theist will say that every human being, whether 1 minute old or 100 years old is here to serve a purpose. That purpose can range from the dramatic to something very subtle.

An athiest or agnostic might say that the millions of deaths and the millions who suffer don't seem to have a purpose but to suffer, which doesn't point to the existence of an almighty loving Creator.

The truth is that people of faith, particularly the Abrahamic faiths, believe in a divine purpose and plan. Athiests and agnostics do not. There is not going to be a breakthrough on this issue I'm afraid. People have been debating this for centuries.

All I can say is be patient. We all die eventually, regardless of how or when. Then the answer will be there for all of us, whether we wink out of existence like a candle or we exist with God eternally. My bet is with God. Others may bet on something else.

[YusufNoor]

This is a tricky question for me to get across.

The child isn't developed? Why didn't it get a chance to develop. If you assume a islamic god,

we don't assume an Islamic God, you do. Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is both "our" God AND your God as well!

there has to be a point of life right?

to try and obtain Jannah, so the child gets to avoid a whole lot of crap and gets straight to graduation! Alhumdulillah!

The child just died. It didn't get a chance to grow into other stages. To experience all the stages of life? Why not?

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

you ASSUME an importance to the dunya(this world) that Islam tries to put in perspective. this world is but the twinking of an eye, Paradise is forever!

picture this, someone gets Jannah after a really short life, are you under the impression that they will be upset that they never got to:

smoke, drink, have sex, watch WWF, go top a Mariah Carey show, watch some footy, listen to music?

that would be dumb as you ARE IN PARADISE!

:w:

[YusufNoor]

[QUOTE=Gator;928790]

Originally Posted by YusufNoor
you don't believe in Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala], so there no way you are going to know that 3 year old will be in Jannah, nor will you understand the concept of Allah's[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] justice. it actually appears that YOU are the one denying them justice by denying the ONE who, provides justice.

it is YOU that claims the victim of SIDS has been somehow shortchanged or that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] is somehow unfair. all of your misconceptions are based upon your denial of Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala]!

I'm just showing my thought process in regards to your ideas about the nature of god in relation to the fact that suffering exists. The argument that "only god knows" just doesn't do for me

La Ilaha Ilah Allah, Muhammadur Rasulullah could change all of that, but we have no power to convince you of that. you have to change yourself first...

I am as god made me.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

yes, only Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] knows the total reason for everything!

BUT, you assume facts not in evidence to wit: this dunya actually matters!

you are definitely NOT as Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] made you. you WERE when you were born, but your environment has molded you into the person that you are.

[QUOTE][Jazzy, in response to your reply. I would suggest breaking it up into at least 2 paragraphs next time.

I understand the argument of suffering makes us better. My question is why the young kids as a specific example? What have they learned and grown with for their suffering given their immature stage?

The answer's I've gotten are:
1) kids go to heaven. Which really doesn't answer the question I don't think.
2) As a test for the parents.
3) Only Allah knows.

So tackling number 2, god creates a soul, makes it suffer and brings it back to heaven for the sole purpose of teaching the parents a lesson.

Thanks. /QUOTE]

sorry thought i had more time, Allahu Alam yes!

but who knows, others close by may learn as well as the parents realizing that the dunya is termporary and they get more spiritual.

the baby may also get a high rank in Jannah, and when someone wants to know why the baby is higher than them, Allah[Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] can inform them of the suffering in the baby's past.

Allahu Alim though...

:w:

[Woodrow]

Us humans have a very poor understanding of time. Time is a concept not a thing. The difference in the age of a baby that dies at birth and a man who dies at 100 years old is insignificant. Both are just a minute speck in terms of eternity.

A baby with just one cognitive second of life can achieve more than some people achieve in 100 years. We need to think in the perspective of lifetime not in terms of years. It does not matter how long the lifetime is, a lifetime is a lifetime, and we will be judged on the basis of what we do and think in that lifetime.

[TrueStranger]

Barney

I know a child isnt aware of allah because it is born not knowing right from wrong, good from bad, how to speak or even how to get its thumb in its mouth.

There is a difference between knowing what is right or wrong, and being aware of Allah. And who teaches the child how to speak, how to walk, how to put their thumbs in their mouths? When a mother first grabs her new born baby, the baby opens its mouth and starts suckling. There are some things which Allah has already taught us from birth.

If a child is suffering agony fom birth to its death after a week, what is it's Test? God knew it would be born in agony and then let it die after a week to taste paradise. A loving god would skip the week.

Where do you get this idea of suffering? You can’t feel the pain you assume the child is undergoing, all you are doing so far is assuming, and making countless assumptions. God does as He Wills, and until you grasp that concept you will continue to ask questions which you can’t comprehend.

What do i have against them dying young?
Umm...they havnt had a crack at life. What possible chance have they had if theyre born on a tuesday and a tidal wave kills them on a thursday.

Are you the one who gave them life? The one who will take away their life? Is that your argument, they didn’t had the opportunity to sin? and disobey Allah? They died while they were sinless. You should be glad, that is the Mercy of Allah. Only Allah knows what was before them and what was behind them.

You have being given the chance to live for at least 3 decades? I am sure you have had a crack at life.

I experience happyness, joy and all the emotions avalible. God hasnt given me them. i make them for myself by my actions.

So your actions create your emotions? Come’ on, is it a consequence that all Humans have a set of emotions, which makes us all humans? If each individual “made” their own emotions depending on their actions, then certainly we would not have experienced basic emotional feelings such as joy, happiness, anger, hatred, jealousy, sadness, pleasure, ect. The point is these emotions are universal, and that only proves that you certainly do not create your own emotions, but you had then when you were born. At least be grateful dear.

I do beleive a God existed or even exists. The afterlife i'm uncertain about apart from it not being as described in scripture. My life is as pointless as i make it.

A life which doesn’t fulfill its designed purpose is truly pointless.

I'm told every soul shall face death? Err, yeah, I know we all die and thats not dependent on if I'm a Bush-baptist or a twentieth day adventist.
I die when I die, and Humans or disease or my own actions may bring about that. If i was to jump off a building now, has God still taken my life? wheres free will gone again?

You could have jumped off a building, and survived. You only die at your appointed time. God takes your life, when the soul is forced to live your body. And we both know that it isn’t you who is able to separate your soul from your body.

There is absolutly no way you could know that. What! 700,000 people all suddenly had nothing further to give!

I know that good people tend to do good things when they have the chance of doing so. And they will only be reward for the good things they did. They give what their Lord has given them and what Allah has decreed for them. That is it. You will be only asked of what you did and gave while alive..

No I havnt. God created the universe. Do i need him? Not as he's decribed, no i dont.

And how would you like God to be described?

Peace.


Allah knows Best.

My fellow Muslims, correct me if i have made an unintentional mistake(s) :blind:

[Gator]

Thanks for the replies guys. Its not experience I'm talking about (Yusuf) or lenght of time (Woodrow).

I'm explaining myself badly. Going to take a few days and see if I can put it together in a better way (if i think there's a good point to it).

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Jazzy, in response to your reply. I would suggest breaking it up into at least 2 paragraphs next time.

I understand the argument of suffering makes us better. My question is why the young kids as a specific example? What have they learned and grown with for their suffering given their immature stage?

The answer's I've gotten are:
1) kids go to heaven. Which really doesn't answer the question I don't think.
2) As a test for the parents.
3) Only Allah knows.

So tackling number 2, god creates a soul, makes it suffer and brings it back to heaven for the sole purpose of teaching the parents a lesson.


Thanks.

Does it really matter if I do. I'm not in English class or writing a paper of some sort. And you understood it well, so I really don't see why I need too. But if it helps you understand better, sure why not.

As for your statement, way to mix it up....

Are you not thankful in whatever it may be, that you have your health. That you have something others may lack? Thankful for being able to live a longer life than most? Does it not make you want to feel more compassionate and sympathetic to others who aren't as fortunate as you are? Not specifically just kids, anyone you see who aren't as lucky as you might be. You might have something they lack and they might have something you lack. All this are examples so you realize not to complain of what you do not have and instead be thankful for what you DO have. And not compare or compete with people and be satisfied with what you have already been blessed with. It sure does make me feel that way...
This is why me and more like me are thankful to Allah(swt) for everything he has given us and for what we may not have, cause we know we are not the only ones and there are others who feel the same.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Btw, this is my opinion of it all, how I see it. I don't expect the atheists to believe it, as I know you won't. Could be wrong...who knows!

[barney]

Barney



There is a difference between knowing what is right or wrong, and being aware of Allah. And who teaches the child how to speak, how to walk, how to put their thumbs in their mouths? When a mother first grabs her new born baby, the baby opens its mouth and starts suckling. There are some things which Allah has already taught us from birth.

Some of the above is Parenting and society. Children who are brought up in the wild by animals cant speak, and cant be taught to speak.
The sucking reflex isnt a confirmation that a baby knows God.



Where do you get this idea of suffering? You can’t feel the pain you assume the child is undergoing, all you are doing so far is assuming, and making countless assumptions. God does as He Wills, and until you grasp that concept you will continue to ask questions which you can’t comprehend.

Your saying that a newborn cant feel pain? You would rather take that on board as a beleif in contery to all evidence , science and common sense rather than accept that God, if he is omnipotent allows suffering?
Hey, OK. Theres no debating against that. Each to their own i suppose.

Are you the one who gave them life? The one who will take away their life? Is that your argument, they didn’t had the opportunity to sin? and disobey Allah? They died while they were sinless. You should be glad, that is the Mercy of Allah. Only Allah knows what was before them and what was behind them.

Their parents are the ones who gave them life. Am I glad that they diddnt have an oppotunity to sin? I'm far far more concerned with the point , that they never had the oppotunity to use their free will to do good. I'm never happy at death. The younger the death, the less point in it all.

You have being given the chance to live for at least 3 decades? I am sure you have had a crack at life.

Yeah, and I'm happy enough with what Ive done so far. My daughter hasnt. If she died next week from a tree falling on her, I would not be cheering a God who allowed it to happen. Actually I wouldnt be angry with it either. I just beleive that it had no part in the matter.


So your actions create your emotions? Come’ on, is it a consequence that all Humans have a set of emotions, which makes us all humans? If each individual “made” their own emotions depending on their actions, then certainly we would not have experienced basic emotional feelings such as joy, happiness, anger, hatred, jealousy, sadness, pleasure, ect. The point is these emotions are universal, and that only proves that you certainly do not create your own emotions, but you had then when you were born. At least be grateful dear.

Yes indeed my emotions are my own. I choose to get angry with the parking ticket, i choose to accept the promotion with happyness. I can listen to my favorite music and the part of my brain that appreciates music wont trigger joy unless I submit to that feeling.
If God controls our emotions and as evidenced by him being omnipotent and omnipresent controls our free will, then we are surely mindless automons.

A life which doesn’t fulfill its designed purpose is truly pointless.

Trufax! But do we have a designated purpose in life. Am I supposed to invent the cure for the common cold? Am i here to provide freindship for my mate, am I here to buy a cup of tea off the starbucks shop in Wakefield on the 22nd of Febuary 2012AD?



You could have jumped off a building, and survived. You only die at your appointed time. God takes your life, when the soul is forced to live your body. And we both know that it isn’t you who is able to separate your soul from your body.

If I jump off a building in a certain way at a certain height, I'll die.
If I die then its "God taking my life" If I live then "God saved me to live paralysed for the rest of my days" as a test.
I'll just chuck the free will out of the window.


And how would you like God to be described?
Loving, peaceful, merciful, and present.

Peace.


Allah knows Best.

My fellow Muslims, correct me if i have made an unintentional mistake(s) :blind:

Peace.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ I dont get it, did u like that Barney? lol

[barney]

^^ I dont get it, did u like that Barney? lol

LOL!
Nahh I disagree with pretty much all of it (again!:D)
Still, all the better to spam out our feelings on it.
Peace.

[kirk]

In the spirit of searching for a loving and forgiving God

If god is forgiving why is there a hell?

k

[kirk]

of us return to our Creator earlier than others

God is preparing us for a greater life after death.

Then I presume you both want people to get to that greater life as quickly as possible. If an elderly person is in great pain and dying, euthanasia will put them out of pain and get them to that greater place much quicker!

k

[kirk]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

This saying is very sad because it means you don’t wish peace on anybody else.

k

[kirk]

Don't you know that a child goes straight to Heaven?

I thought people go nowhere till the Day of Judgement

k

[barney]

He only forgives if we repent and beleive in him and worship him in the prescribed manner.

The all-forgiving dosnt actually mean Forgiving everything. It means forgiving certain things on certain terms.

My veiwpoint is hell is the stick, heaven the carrot.

[barney]

This saying is very sad because it means you don’t wish peace on anybody else.

k

They might do! Its in the small print. Hey and stop copying Siggys. You cant have mine!:)

[YusufNoor]

This saying is very sad because it means you don’t wish peace on anybody else.

k

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

it's a greeting and a type of du'a[prayer], a Muslim du'a. you don't think there is a God, why are you sad to be left out of a prayer?

that's not logical!

If I jump off a building in a certain way at a certain height, I'll die.
If I die then its "God taking my life" If I live then "God saved me to live paralysed for the rest of my days" as a test.

the word test isn't always the best word, it may actually be a punishment instead of a test. Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] doesn't punish us for the same thing twice, therefore it's better to be punished now, then later.

I'll just chuck the free will out of the window.

you don't talk about why you might jump!btw, if you die it's gravity & acceleration! :D

there's also the concept of Qadr that eludes some. whether or not you jump may be your own free will, BUT just because Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] wrote it down aeons ago doesn't mean you didn't have free will, it just means that Allah [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] knew that you were going to jump!

He only forgives if we repent and beleive in him and worship him in the prescribed manner.

we only know about 5% of Allah's [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] Mercy! in fact, i read a great quote once which i cannot find, it read(sort of): if the non-believer knew the true extent of Allah's [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] Mercy, then he would never fear the hellfire; and if a beliver knew the full extent of Allah's [Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala] wrath, then he would lose all hope of obtaining Jannah! (i wish i could find it soo i could quote it and source it)

The all-forgiving dosnt actually mean Forgiving everything. It means forgiving certain things on certain terms.

MAYBE some folks don't WANT forgiveness!

although:

My veiwpoint is hell is the stick, heaven the carrot.

that sounds about right! [although there's another hadeeth...]

:w:

[barney]

I diddnt know that the "peace" greeting was wishing for Gods peace upon the person. You learn something new every day.

As for not wanting forgiveness, perhaps some people dont think theyve done anything wrong worth forgiving or that theres anyone who cares about forgiving it!

[AntiKarateKid]

I under stand that, but my question I guess is what is the test for the child? Doesn't that soul get a chance to develop and mature. We are different people at different stages of life.

Why is not this soul tested at later stages of life. Allowed to grow and learn through other tests?

Has that question been addressed?

Thanks.

You sound so foolish right now. Your answer has been given, Allah knows best. Accept it. You do not know everything. You don't run everything. An Omnipotent God is an omnipotent God. Whther or not YOU understand the point of some people's lives is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. ALlah knows and that is all that matter. Would the child have been better off later on? You certainly do not know and you whining about this same thing like a broken record is tantamount to the child asking the parent about things beyond his comprehension then crying because he is told " You will know when you're ready".

The answer has been given. Accept it and move on.

[AntiKarateKid]

If god is forgiving why is there a hell?

k

For people like you who rebel against him. WHo try to comprehend what is beyond them and then moan and whine when they don't understand, blame it on God and get screwed in the next life.

Hell is the place for people who have failed the test of life. Live with it.

[Nerd]

if God posses
1. jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
2. possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
3. vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

If God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering??

[barney]

You sound so foolish right now. Your answer has been given, Allah knows best. Accept it. You do not know everything. You don't run everything. An Omnipotent God is an omnipotent God. Whther or not YOU understand the point of some people's lives is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. ALlah knows and that is all that matter. Would the child have been better off later on? You certainly do not know and you whining about this same thing like a broken record is tantamount to the child asking the parent about things beyond his comprehension then crying because he is told " You will know when you're ready".

The answer has been given. Accept it and move on.

I think the question has been answered for you, but not for others.:D

The Answer for me is, If God existed, then it is not all powerful, all merciful or omnipresent or ceased to exist. I find my answers in one of these explainations.

But if you are happy with your explaination, then your happy with that.
No problem really.

[barney]

if God posses
1. jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
2. possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
3. vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

??

1)A right to be accepted for his work
2) some thanks and acceptance for his power
3)Rightous justice to be dispensed as a penalty of sin.

[aamirsaab]

if God posses
.........
If God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering??

1)It is not a question of why God has/has not x.y,z ability. It is a question of whether He will use it. We cannot fathom the reasons for God's decision as we are mere humans. It is on a completely different plane. My opinion on this matter is that if you strive for something and do everything in your power to do it, you will suceed (and this is saying quite a bit from me --- read my previous post on this thread)

2) One of the tests of life is the suffering of mankind - how can we as humans deal with it. And yes we can through showing compassion and love to our fellow kind. You're question essentially asks: Oh I am too lazy to do anything about the suffering of mankind. Why doesn' t God do it!

It is precisely that thinking that will get you absolutely nowhere in life. God will aid and guide whom He choses - He is not commanded by us, we are commanded by Him. Though if you really would like some help from God prayer and dua are the keys.

[AntiKarateKid]

if God posses
1. jealousy (conditioning absolute belief in His unity),
2. possessiveness (worshiping /reverence)
3. vengefulness (dreadful mechanisms of torture) just to name a few.

If God can have these idiosyncrasies which are reflected by our human nature, why not empathy? Would not a compassionate and omnipotent being do all that is in its power to save mankind (or any other creature) from constant suffering??

Yawn... I'll do this quick.

1 and 2 are answered by this

Most Muslim thinkers hold that knowledge of tawhid pertains to what it means to be human. It lies in the original human nature (fitra) since human beings were created knowing that ‘there is no god but God’. The prophets were sent to remind them of what they already know. Hence, to associate others with God is to go against the most fundamental instincts of the human species. It is, so to speak, to betray human nature and even to leave human existence. This explains why it is such a grave sin: It is the overturning of what makes us human. In this view of things, claiing ignorance of tawhid is tantamount to claiming not to be human. In the next world, paradise is the human realm, while hell is the realm of those creatures who began as human beings but did not live up to their humanity’

3... lol I really think you need to go back to religion 101, you have lost all religious common sense. A punishment comes in 2 forms. Recompense for your sins so that you may learn from them, or as a test of faith. The first is because you have done something wrong and you have the chance to redeem yourselve through accepting punishment here, as opposed to a far far worse one in the hearafter. The second is a blessing in disguise because you will get far far more in heaven if you patiently persevere. Allah knows what is best for you.

Your attributions of jealousy and possessiveness stem from inaccurate perceptions of prayer, the central pillars of Islam, and our position in the universe. Through acknowleging his unity and through prayer, like i quoted fromt he book above, we fullfill ourselves and our potential instead of living in ignorance. It is a test for us and Allah warns us about what will happen if we die. You're negative perceptions of God taint anything about religion in your mind. Open your eyes, these suggestions of yours are foolish at best.

[truemuslim]

If god is forgiving why is there a hell?

k

*sigh* *shakes head for how many ppl ask stupid questions these days*

OOK... So your in high school and you suck so bad because you never ever try because you still need reasons why you have to try in school to graduate eh? and at graduation the guy who announces the names of those who graduate didn't announce your name because you didn't graduate. but its too late now right. so u basically sayin you can go and not learn or try at school and have straight F's and still graduate??
Come on your like seriously kiddin right??
you wanna kill people, not know your creator, violate all things your creator prohibited, live this life as if theres no next , and not go to hell??
btw your supposed to answer that... juss so u kno...
*sighs again*
:w:

[- Qatada -]

If god is forgiving why is there a hell?

k

Because He is the Just too :)

[Trumble]

Because He is the Just too :)

I'm sorry, but that's a complete non-answer. An entity that 'sentences' it's fellow entities to eternal torment and d*mnation is not "just", but evil and sadistic to a degree the human mind can't possibly imagine.

However..., one consequence of the problem of evil is that it also works the other way around. God cannot be an evil sadist as, if He was, there would be no good around... in other words He would make a much better job of being evil and sadistic. The only logical conclusion, therefore, is that the whole idea of hell is a nonsense, at least within a monotheistic framework. It's a scare story to frighten the gullible into line, no more.

*sigh* *shakes head for how many ppl ask stupid questions these days*

Almost as many as those who provide stupid answers, probably. That however, was not a stupid question and your answer was far too feeble to justify patronizing anybody.

[Keltoi]

In response to Trumble, I think the answer lies in human free-will. God created us to be free thinking and able to make our own decisions and follow our own chosen actions. With that freedom, as in all freedom, it comes with responsibility. So in that sense, it isn't God who sends us to Hell, but ourselves.

On the question of evil, it also boils down to free will. God could have created robots who do nothing but walk around saying "I love you". However, would these mindless robots truly understand what love is? Love is a choice. It is not real unless we have the ability to not love. So in a world of free thinking human beings, there will be the opposite of love. Hence, evil.

[- Qatada -]

Trumble, if someone was given a limited life and was given glad tidings and warnings for what was to come ahead of an eternal life, but the person was ungrateful to Allah [this is coming from a believers perspective] - should they be punished forever, if from a similar perspective they would get rewarded eternally?


If the reward is eternal, then the punishment also has to be eternal on the other side of the scale. This is because one side was obedient for a limited time, and the other disobedient for their lifetime - both were warned and given glad tidings. Whoever chose the glad tidings strived for it and earned it by the Mercy of Allah, whoever was warned and rejected it - earned what they did for their rejection and ungratefulness.

[barney]

In response to Trumble, I think the answer lies in human free-will. God created us to be free thinking and able to make our own decisions and follow our own chosen actions. With that freedom, as in all freedom, it comes with responsibility. So in that sense, it isn't God who sends us to Hell, but ourselves.

On the question of evil, it also boils down to free will. God could have created robots who do nothing but walk around saying "I love you". However, would these mindless robots truly understand what love is? Love is a choice. It is not real unless we have the ability to not love. So in a world of free thinking human beings, there will be the opposite of love. Hence, evil.

Kelt, I'm getting a healthy dose of "God dosnt interact with us on earth" from that. It's looking like "everything that is natural is natural and not from God"?
A sort of the Tidal wave of New Orleans was a tidal wave and not gods punishment against greed and tack.

I would agree with that, but if so...what is the point where God steps in?

[Azy]

So people are forced into an existence of suffering (mortal tests) that they didn't ask for, and if they aren't grateful for a life of hunger, disease and deprivation then they're subject to eternal punishment.

Yay.
Go justice.
Go mercy.

[Mikayeel]

I'm sorry, but that's a complete non-answer. An entity that 'sentences' it's fellow entities to eternal torment and d*mnation is not "just", but evil and sadistic to a degree the human mind can't possibly imagine.

However..., one consequence of the problem of evil is that it also works the other way around. God cannot be an evil sadist as, if He was, there would be no good around... in other words He would make a much better job of being evil and sadistic. The only logical conclusion, therefore, is that the whole idea of hell is a nonsense, at least within a monotheistic framework. It's a scare story to frighten the gullible into line, no more.




Almost as many as those who provide stupid answers, probably. That however, was not a stupid question and your answer was far too feeble to justify patronizing anybody.

Why is there life sentence for criminals?

How come that when a child misbehaves his parents punish him?
Also how come that if he does good, that they reward him.

Well in the case of Allah, hes reward is 10000000........X more, but so is his punishment for those arrogant, ignorant corruption spreaders.

[Mikayeel]

So people are forced into an existence of suffering (mortal tests) that they didn't ask for, and if they aren't grateful for a life of hunger, disease and deprivation then they're subject to eternal punishment.

Yay.
Go justice.
Go mercy.

“Indeed Allah is All-Powerful (Al-`Aziz) and He is able to do all things (`ala kull sha’in qadir). The Qur’an has mentioned this hundreds of times. It is also mentioned in the Qur’an that Allah is the Creator and He is the Best Creator. “Glory be to Allah, the best Creator.” (Al-Mu’minun: 14)

But then the question comes why do pain and sufferings exist in the world.
We find sickness, old age and death. We see things that are ugly, people who are insane and foolish. There are storms, earthquakes, floods, draught and famine. We also see people commit sins, show disloyalty, unfaithfulness, greed and insincerity. We see people commit rapes, murders; they fight and make wars. We know all these and many more problems. There are evils caused by human beings and there are natural disasters. There are suffering for individuals and there are those that involve a large number of people.

But we also know that this is not the whole story. Besides all these negative things, we also see beauty, health, prosperity, life, birth, wisdom, intelligence, growth and progress. We also see goodness among people, faith, sincerity, charity, love and the spirit of sacrifice. We also see a lot of virtue and piety. It is wrong to see one side of the coin and not to see the other side. Any philosophy that concentrates on one aspect of the creation and denies or ignores the other side is partially true and partial truths are no truth at all.

It is also the fact that the element of good is more in the creation than the element of evil. We all see that there are more people who are healthy than those who are sick. There are more that eat well than those who starve.

There are more that lead decent life than those who commit crimes. Goodness is the rule and evil is the exception. Virtue is the norm and sin is the aberration. Generally trees bear fruits, the flowers bloom, the winds move smoothly.

But then the question is why does Allah allow these exceptions to the rules?

Let us ask this question to understand Allah’s ways in His creation. The Qur’an tells us that good, evil and whatever happens in this world happens by Allah’s Will (mashi’at Allah). Only Allah knows fully His Will. We finite beings cannot grasp fully His infinite Will and Wisdom. He runs His universe the way He deems fit. The Qur’an tells us that Allah is Wise and everything that Allah does is right, just, good and fair. We must submit and surrender to His Will. The Qur’an has not given us all the details about Allah’s Will, but it has enlightened us with the guidance that is useful and sufficient for us. There are several points that we should keep in our mind to understand this issue:

1. First of all, Allah did not make this world a permanent world. This is a temporary world and everything here has a time limit. When its times comes it will die, come to an end and finish. Neither the good things of this world are forever, nor the bad things eternal. We are here for a short time and we are being tested. Those who will pass this test will find an eternal world that is perfect and permanent. Those who will fail this test shall see the evil consequences of their sins and corruption.

2. Allah has placed a physical law and a moral law in this universe. Allah allows suffering to occur when one or more of these laws are broken. The physical law is based on cause and effect. Sickness comes if one does not take care of one’s health or is exposed to infections. A car accident occurs when one is not alert, or drives in a careless manner, or if the cars are not checked, roads and freeways are not made and kept in right shape, or the traffic laws are not right or not properly enforced. Study of causes and effects is very important to facilitate safeguards. Even here we should keep in mind that Allah often saves us and He does not let us suffer from every negligence. How many times it happens that we are not careful and still we reach safely to our destinations. The way people drive in some cities, it is a miracle that more accidents do not happen and more people do not suffer. Allah says:

“(Allah) Most Gracious! It is He Who has taught the Qur’an. He has created man: He has taught him speech (and Intelligence). The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed; and the herbs and the trees both (alike) bow in adoration. And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice), in order that you may not transgress (due) balance. So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance. It is He Who has spread out the earth for (His) creatures." (Ar-Rahman:1-10)

The way we exceed the measures set by Allah and violate His laws of cause and effect is incredible. It is really the mercy of Allah that we are saved. Strictly speaking, the question should not be why does Allah allow suffering, but how much Allah protects us and saves us all the time in spite of our violations and negligence. The Qur’an says:

“If Allah were to punish people according to what they deserve, He would not leave on the back of the (earth) a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, verily Allah has in His sight all His servants." (Fatir:45)

But sometimes Allah does punish people because of their violations of His laws whether they are physical or moral. The Qur’an tells us that many nations and communities were destroyed because of their sinful lifestyles:

“If they treat thy (mission) as false, so did the Peoples before them (with their Prophets), the People of Noah, and Ad and Thamud. Those of Abraham and Lut; and the Companions of the Madyan people; and Moses was rejected (in the same way). But I granted respite to the Unbelievers, and (only) after that did I punish them: but how (terrible) was My rejection (of them)! How many populations have We destroyed, which were given to wrong-doing! They tumbled down on their roofs. And how many wells are lying idle and neglected, and castles lofty and well-built?" (Al-Hajj: 42-45)

3. Suffering can also be a test and trial for some people. Allah allows some people to suffer in order to test their patience and steadfastness. Even Allah’s Prophets and Messengers were made to suffer. Prophet Ayyub is mentioned in the Qur’an as a Prophet who was very patient. Good people sometimes suffer but their sufferings heal others and bring goodness to their communities. People learn lessons from their good examples. Martyrs die for their faith, soldiers give their lives for their nations and this brings liberation and freedom for their people.

4. Allah sometimes allows some people to suffer to test others, how they react to them. When you see a person who is sick, poor and needy, then you are tested by Allah. Allah is there with that suffering person to test your charity and your faith. In a very moving Hadith Qudsi (Divine Hadith) the Prophet, peace be upon him, said:

“Allah will say on the Day of Judgment, ‘O son of Adam, I was sick and you did not visit Me.’ He will say, ‘O my Lord, how could I visit You, when you are the Lord of the Worlds.’ Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was sick and you did not visit him? Did you not know that if you had visited him, you would have found Me there?’ Allah will say, ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not.’ He shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I feed you and you are the Lord of the Worlds?’ And Allah will say, ‘Did you not know that My servant so-and-so was in need of food and you did not feed him? Did you not know that if you had fed him, you would have found that to have been for Me?’ ‘O son of Adam, I asked you for water and you did not give Me to drink.’ The man shall say, ‘O my Lord, how could I give You water, when You are the Lord of the Worlds?’ Allah will say, ‘My servant so-and-so asked you for water and you did not give him to drink water. Did you not know that if you had given him to drink, you would have found that to have been for Me.’ (Muslim, Hadith no. 4661)

So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test.

Believers face the sufferings with prayers, repentance and good deeds. The non-believers face the sufferings with doubts and confusions. They blame Allah or make arguments against Him.

May Allah keep us on the right path, Amen!

[- Qatada -]

So people are forced into an existence of suffering (mortal tests) that they didn't ask for, and if they aren't grateful for a life of hunger, disease and deprivation then they're subject to eternal punishment.

Yay.
Go justice.
Go mercy.

That's a strawman argument. So we don't even need to bother to respond to it.


Besides, the whole issues been discussed throughout the thread repeatedly, so i wouldn't be surprised if a mod closed the thread.

[barney]

Why is there life sentence for criminals?

How come that when a child misbehaves his parents punish him?
Also how come that if he does good, that they reward him.

Well in the case of Allah, hes reward is 10000000X more, but so is his punishment for those arrogant, ignorant corruption spreaders.

My son smashed in a kids lip yesterday. He acted stupid and threw a snooker ball which riccoched into the kids face.

Such stupidity is totally against my values. Hurting someone else is anathema to me.

I however , given the ability to place my son in a shirt that burned and exquisite torment the kind that we cannot here contemplate for the next 90000000000000000000900000000200000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000070000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000007000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000002000000000030090years, and then some more till my computor breaks from typing 0000's.

I would have to be pretty darned sure that my kid deserved this.
. Lets say that Its my most beloved son, I am infinatly merciful and infinatly benevolent, and noone can comprehend my love for humanity and my perfection of justice.

He decides as all teenagers do, to rebel or perhaps not tell me how much he loves me a certain amount of times.

Fetch the Burning tar. Eternity awaits.:skeleton:

Anyway, back to reality. I told him off and stopped his money for a week.
Am i merciful, or does my mercy pale into insignificance?

[Mikayeel]

My son smashed in a kids lip yesterday. He acted stupid and threw a snooker ball which riccoched into the kids face.

Such stupidity is totally against my values. Hurting someone else is anathema to me.

I however , given the ability to place my son in a shirt that burned and exquisite torment the kind that we cannot her contemplate for the next 90000000000000000000900000000200000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000070000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000007000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000040000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000002000000000030090years, and then some more till my computor breaks from typing 0000's.

I would have to be pretty darned sure that my kid deserved this.
. Lets say that Its my most beloved son, I am infinatly merciful and infinatly benevolent, and noone can comprehend my love for humanity and my perfection of justice.

He decides as all teenagers do, to rebel or perhaps not tell me how much he loves me a certain amount of times.

Fetch the Burning tar. Eternity awaits.:skeleton:

You can't compare your love/mercy to that of GOD, neither your ability to be just!

Please do remember that it was GOD in the first place, to have placed you here right now, and gave you a mind of your own! The ability to argue things! The ability to argue his own creation!, More frightening to QUESTION HIS OWN EXISTENCE!!!

Man just reflect and be thankfull! If i had created a small device, and it did not operate the way i wanted to, I would get very impatient and frusterated, I would possibly destroy the device!

Nope, but you are still here! This just shows how mercifull and how patient he is!

Sub7anAllah!!!

[- Qatada -]

A response to something similar to what barney said;

You are comparing apples with oranges here. For Allah is not like you. You are a limited and finite human being. Justice demands that the punishment must fit the crime. The punishment committed against your mother is that of finite magnitude, thus calling for a finite punishment.

However, Allah is infinite and beyond limitations. Thus, one who rejects the infinite God for no valid reason (e.g. he wasn't insane, he wasn't in a coma, he received the correct message, etc.), has committed a crime that is of infinite magnitude. Thus, since the punishment must fit the crime and the crime is that of infinite magnitude, objective logic demands that the punishment must also be infinite and that is burning in hell forever.

Objective logic states that a crime commited against the infinite God should draw in an infinite punishment. But it is our emotions and personal subjective opinions that say other wise.

Also, we tend to look at the magnitude of the crime (e.g. simply rejecting a religion) but we do not tend to try and imagine the magnitude of whom the crime is being committed against.

Also, simply not liking, understanding or agreeing with something is not evidence against that thing. For example, in China you have people who commit tax evasion being executed. Now, I don't agree, understand or like that law, but that does not change the fact that the law is a reality in China.

Similarly, not liking, understanding or agreeing with people being burnt in hell forever, is not evidence against its reality. Us Muslims submit to the truth rather we like it or not. We don't care about what people like, agree or understand, we care about the truth. If the truth is something that we don't like, well then as the saying goes 'Truth hurts'.

Allah knows best.