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Muezzin
04-17-2008, 12:24 PM
By Alastair Macdonald

GAZA (Reuters) - A medical examination showed on Thursday that metal darts from an Israeli tank shell that explodes in the air caused the death of a Reuters cameraman killed a day earlier in the Gaza Strip, doctors said.

X-rays displayed by physicians who examined the body of Fadel Shana in Gaza's Shifa hospital showed several of the controversial weapons, known as flechettes, embedded in the 23-year-old Palestinian's chest and legs.

Several of the 3 cm (1 inch)-long darts were also found in Shana's flak jacket, emblazoned with a florescent "Press" sign, and in his vehicle, an unarmoured sport utility vehicle bearing "TV" and "Press" markings.

Shana was covering events in the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip for Reuters on a day of intense violence when 16 other Palestinians and three Israeli soldiers were also killed.

"The evidence from the medical examination underlines the importance of a swift, honest and impartial investigation by the Israel Defence Forces and by the government," said David Schlesinger, editor-in-chief of Reuters News.

"The markings on Fadel Shana's vehicle showed clearly and unambiguously that he was a professional journalist doing his duty. We and the military must work together urgently to understand why this tragedy took place and how similar incidents can be avoided in the future," Schlesinger added.

Several hundred people, mainly local journalists, marched in Shana's funeral procession on Thursday. His body was draped in a Palestinian flag and his shattered camera and flak jacket were borne aloft on a separate stretcher.

Two youths passing by died in the same explosion that killed Shana, witnesses said. The cameraman had stepped from his car to film an Israeli tank dug in several hundred metres (yards) away.

Reuters soundman Wafa Abu Mizyed, 25, sustained a shrapnel wound in the incident.

Dr. Yunes Ramadan Awadallah, one of the physicians who examined Shana's body, said he suffered multiple lacerations from projectiles, some of which appeared to have entered his chest through his neck and shoulder, severing his spinal cord.

Asked about the information that an Israeli flechette shell had killed Shana, an Israeli military spokeswoman said: "The Israel Defence Forces do not, as a rule, comment on the weapons they use. But its weapons are legal under international law.

"Flechettes are legal under international law and a petition filed in the (Israeli) Supreme Court against their use was rejected," she added.

RULING

Rejecting a petition in 2003 by Israel's Physicians for Human Rights and the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, the court said a 1980 U.N. convention on restricting the use of conventional weapons that cause excessive injury did not prohibit those with "sub-ammunition such as flechette shells".

Video from Shana's camera showed the tank opening fire. Two seconds after the shot raises dust around its gun, the tape goes blank -- seemingly at the moment Shana was hit.

A frame-by-frame examination of the tape shows the shell exploding in the air and dark shapes shooting out from it.

"This tragic incident shows the risks journalists take every day to report the news. All governments and organisations have a responsibility to take the utmost care to protect professionals trying to do their jobs," Schlesinger said.

There was no word from the Israeli military on Thursday on whether it would launch an investigation.

An Israeli military spokeswoman, Major Avital Leibovich, said there had been clashes in area throughout Wednesday after the three Israeli troops had been killed there overnight.

A military official said: "We wish to express sorrow for the death of the Palestinian cameraman ... It should be emphasised that the area in which the cameraman was hurt is an area in which ongoing fighting against armed, extreme and dangerous terrorist organisations occurs on a daily basis.

"The presence of media, photographers and other uninvolved individuals in areas of warfare is extremely dangerous and poses a threat to their lives."

Shana, who was unmarried, was a gentle and popular figure among the 15-strong Reuters news team in the Gaza Strip. The bureau was honoured by Britain's Royal Television Society for its coverage of last year's factional fighting in Gaza.

Journalists have become casualties on numerous occasions in the Palestinian territories. Media watchdogs estimate that nine have been killed in the West Bank and Gaza Strip since 2000.

An Israeli soldier shot a Reuters photographer in the leg in Gaza in October. Two Reuters journalists were wounded by an Israeli tank shell in the enclave in 2003.

Also in 2003, one of the most widely renowned Palestinian journalists to work for Reuters, television cameraman Mazen Dana, was shot dead by a U.S. soldier in Baghdad. Six other Reuters journalists have been killed in that conflict.

(Additional reporting by Jeffrey Heller in Jerusalem, Writing by Jeffrey Heller; Editing by Samia Nakhoul)

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Keltoi
04-17-2008, 12:29 PM
When you run around with a camera in a war zone you are taking a huge risk. I remember an episode in Baghdad when a cameraman on a roof stuck his camera over a ledge, which looks like an RPG to a soldier on alert, and was blasted as a result.

I don't know the circumstances of this incident, but there is a certain element of personal responsibility when you enter a war zone.
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Gator
04-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Let's check the body count!

Palestinians - 18+ (with women and children)
Israelis - 5 (2 civilians & 3soldiers)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/wo...=1&oref=slogin

Highlighted quotes -

"Asked about the many civilian casualties, Maj. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli Army spokeswoman, said the military had struck an armed group. “It could be that civilians were nearby; it would not be the first time,” she said.

"Amid the violence, Israel resumed the pumping of emergency fuel supplies into Gaza after a weeklong suspension. The flow stopped on April 9 after Palestinian militant groups attacked the sole fuel depot on Israel’s border with Gaza, killing two Israeli civilians who worked there."

Ahh, Israeli army lobbing rockets at everything that moves and Hamas provoking Israel to shut off the fuel supply to keep the Palestinians in miserable conditions.

Great job everyone, great job.
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Keltoi
04-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
Let's check the body count!

Palestinians - 18+ (with women and children)
Israelis - 5 (2 civilians & 3soldiers)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/17/wo...=1&oref=slogin

Highlighted quotes -

"Asked about the many civilian casualties, Maj. Avital Leibovich, an Israeli Army spokeswoman, said the military had struck an armed group. “It could be that civilians were nearby; it would not be the first time,” she said.

"Amid the violence, Israel resumed the pumping of emergency fuel supplies into Gaza after a weeklong suspension. The flow stopped on April 9 after Palestinian militant groups attacked the sole fuel depot on Israel’s border with Gaza, killing two Israeli civilians who worked there."

Ahh, Israeli army lobbing rockets at everything that moves and Hamas provoking Israel to shut off the fuel supply to keep the Palestinians in miserable conditions.

Great job everyone, great job.
Don't worry, Jimmy Carter will take care of everything. *sarcasm*
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Roasted Cashew
04-17-2008, 02:00 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Don't worry, Jimmy Carter will take care of everything. *sarcasm*
Though you were trying to be sarcastic, peace can't be achieved until Hamas is brought onto the table. Why is recognizing Israel such a big deal to the Americans anyway? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia and almost every Islamic country in the world doesn't recognize Israel but when Hamas chooses a similar view point, it is SO WRONG! I think peace still can be achieved even if Hamas refuses to recognize Israel. Though rockets got to stop.
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Keltoi
04-17-2008, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
Though you were trying to be sarcastic, peace can't be achieved until Hamas is brought onto the table. Why is recognizing Israel such a big deal to the Americans anyway? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia and almost every Islamic country in the world doesn't recognize Israel but when Hamas chooses a similar view point, it is SO WRONG! I think peace still can be achieved even if Hamas refuses to recognize Israel. Though rockets got to stop.
It doesn't matter whether Pakistan, Malaysia or SA recognizes Israel or not, they aren't directly involved with the situation. Hamas is directly involved and are largely responsible for the continuation of this conflict. If there is going to be peace between Israel and the Palestinians, it will have to come through recognition of Israel's right to exist...otherwise the conflict will continue.
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crayon
04-17-2008, 04:14 PM
"There was no word from the Israeli military on Thursday on whether it would launch an investigation."

Why bother?... it's bound to be another "mistake".

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Keltoi
04-17-2008, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
"There was no word from the Israeli military on Thursday on whether it would launch an investigation."

Why bother?... it's bound to be another "mistake".

Are you suggesting that Israel intentionally targets journalists? What possible logic would that make? Do you think Israel enjoys bad publicity?
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crayon
04-17-2008, 05:32 PM
No, I was talking about civilians in general, who they don't necessarily target, but if they're in their way, they don't really give a crap.
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Trumble
04-17-2008, 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
Though you were trying to be sarcastic, peace can't be achieved until Hamas is brought onto the table. Why is recognizing Israel such a big deal to the Americans anyway? Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia and almost every Islamic country in the world doesn't recognize Israel but when Hamas chooses a similar view point, it is SO WRONG! I think peace still can be achieved even if Hamas refuses to recognize Israel.
As Keltoi said it is not necessary that those countries recognise Israel, while it is necessary that Hamas does, at least as long as they remain necessary 'players' in any peace process. If Hamas does not recognise that the State of Israel exists it is not only politically impossible but also logically impossible for them to reach any agreement with it. It's therefore pointless "bringing them to the table" unless recognition of Israel is at least on the agenda.
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kirk
04-18-2008, 03:02 AM
If any civilians are anywhere near those who are firing upon the Israelis, then they better stand back because the Israelis will retaliate!

k
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barney
04-18-2008, 03:12 AM
Flechette rounds explode over a wide area. They dont guide themselves away from flurecent jackets.


Gator, the Israelis are running around shooting at everything that moves? Did they run out of ammo after 18 bullets?
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Gator
04-18-2008, 04:06 AM
I realize the tank was under extreme duress.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b1c_1208421211
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barney
04-18-2008, 04:15 AM
Ok. look at the mid foreground at the trench. It zigzags in the field in front of the buildings.
The tank fired an airburst which is the greenish flash just before the tape ends.This would have shredded the gunmen crouched in the trench.It also spreads its shrapnel and flechettes outwards.
The shell clearly bursts in the last few frames above the target.
This poor guy, stood in the open filming, got hit over 90 meters from the target.

Reveiw the tape yourself and check it out.
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Muezzin
04-18-2008, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Flechette rounds explode over a wide area. They dont guide themselves away from flurecent jackets.
So, surely, flechette rounds should not be used. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut...
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Roasted Cashew
04-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
It doesn't matter whether Pakistan, Malaysia or SA recognizes Israel or not, they aren't directly involved with the situation. Hamas is directly involved and are largely responsible for the continuation of this conflict. If there is going to be peace between Israel and the Palestinians, it will have to come through recognition of Israel's right to exist...otherwise the conflict will continue.
Well, Israel has to stop it's settlements as well. It got an "F" in that area.
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barney
04-18-2008, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
So, surely, flechette rounds should not be used. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut...
Muez, I was a soldier. I know the risks of assaulting a trenchline.
If you are receiving gunfire from a position, you do not "Fight fair and with honour" by drawing sabers and charging at them. You just take them out with a airbust.

I was Artillery myself, so I know the amount of target recognition and clearence to fire needed. The Israeli army has similar ROE, (wether it sticks to em , i dont know).
Looking at that vidio from a proffesional's veiwpoint, I see a military position, well dug in, a tank on the hill opposite and a cameraman in the open directly behind.
Any attempt to put this particular incident as an example of Jewish callous- slaughter fails on every level possible.
If Flechette rounds should be banned then so should high explosive, and then, because people might get hurt, so should rifles, then can we get rid of rocks please because they might get thrown. It dosn't work. War is a horrible deverstating foul thing. Trying to sanitise it by equiping everyone with swords wont work. It never did.

Perhaps some rogue Israeli troops have indeed delibertly killed palastinian civilians. I have never met them to get a measure of what they are like. I however ask why, if genocide is their game, why is there a single palastinian still alive?

In this instance , no its not a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's a poor foolish reporter standing in the line of fire between a Tank and a trenchline, thinking that a body armour protects against flechettes. :(
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Gator
04-19-2008, 01:40 AM
Look, the tank was on a hill, they saw a bunch of guys (other voices on the tape) standing in the open and one had something on his shoulder (the camera).

The tank decided to take them out. They really didn't care who it was.

The round burst in perfect position to kill them.

I'm sorry but I don't buy the "trench" theory.
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Gator
04-19-2008, 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
So, surely, flechette rounds should not be used. Talk about a sledgehammer to crack a nut...
Here's an old article on their use by the IDF.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article558.shtml


Israel's military debates use of flechette round
Steve Rodan, Jane's Defence Weekly, 22 May 2001


The Israel Defence Force (IDF) is using tank-fired flechette anti-personnel rounds in its conflict with Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Military sources told Jane's Defence Weekly that the IDF is divided about the employment of the round, with some officers arguing that the shell is effective against certain targets while others warn of an international backlash.

The IDF is using a modified version of the M494 105mm APERS-T round provided by the USA in the 1970s. According to a US Army manual, the round is "designed for close-in assault against massed infantry assaults and for offensive fire against exposed enemy personnel".

In IDF service the M494 is fitted with the Reshef Technologies OMEGA M127 electronic fuze which is set before the round is fired. At the set range the forward section of the M494 round ruptures releasing approximately 5,000 small flechette darts and a dye marker. The flechettes are dispersed in a cone-shaped pattern which is 300m long and about 94m wide.
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barney
04-19-2008, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
Here's an old article on their use by the IDF.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article558.shtml


Israel's military debates use of flechette round
Steve Rodan, Jane's Defence Weekly, 22 May 2001


The Israel Defence Force (IDF) is using tank-fired flechette anti-personnel rounds in its conflict with Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Military sources told Jane's Defence Weekly that the IDF is divided about the employment of the round, with some officers arguing that the shell is effective against certain targets while others warn of an international backlash.

The IDF is using a modified version of the M494 105mm APERS-T round provided by the USA in the 1970s. According to a US Army manual, the round is "designed for close-in assault against massed infantry assaults and for offensive fire against exposed enemy personnel".

In IDF service the M494 is fitted with the Reshef Technologies OMEGA M127 electronic fuze which is set before the round is fired. At the set range the forward section of the M494 round ruptures releasing approximately 5,000 small flechette darts and a dye marker. The flechettes are dispersed in a cone-shaped pattern which is 300m long and about 94m wide.
Take another look and freeze the film just before the end. You will see the airburst.
It's up to you, but I'm fairly knowlagable about explosives and if you dont buy the trench just pretend that it's not on the film.:)
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Keltoi
04-19-2008, 07:11 PM
Why would the IDF intentionally target journalists? To cover up the "truth"? How would targeting journalists who have cameras pointed at them work in their favor? If journalists want to put themselves in the line of fire while a battle is going on, they should know the danger involved. Soldiers are not going to put their own lives or the lives of their comrades in danger because there are media types running around enemy positions.
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Gator
04-20-2008, 01:42 AM
My feeling is that the guys in the tank didn't know who it was. They were far away, probably on thermal imaging in Palestinian territory. They saw this guy with something on his shoulder (RPGish) standing with other guys and took them out.

There was no battle and no trench. the only shot was from the tank (though the limited amount of tape time couldn't be conclusive). Militants don't sit in trenches firing at a tank that's got the superior position waiting to get to get blown away.

The israelis are NOT out to eliminate the palestinian people or kill indiscriminatly. The IDF feel they are striking back at valid targets and given the cowardly actions of Hamas militants firing from positions close to civilians, they seem to be justified and there's a lot of innocent people killed. As far as the tank crew was concerned it could have been a militant with an RPG.

But then again it could have been 12 year olds playing soccer and one kid picks up a branch to get it off the field and they are wiped out. The threshold to really identify your target appears to be pretty low sometimes.
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Muezzin
04-20-2008, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Muez, I was a soldier. I know the risks of assaulting a trenchline.
If you are receiving gunfire from a position, you do not "Fight fair and with honour" by drawing sabers and charging at them. You just take them out with a airbust.

I was Artillery myself, so I know the amount of target recognition and clearence to fire needed. The Israeli army has similar ROE, (wether it sticks to em , i dont know).
Looking at that vidio from a proffesional's veiwpoint, I see a military position, well dug in, a tank on the hill opposite and a cameraman in the open directly behind.
Any attempt to put this particular incident as an example of Jewish callous- slaughter fails on every level possible.
If Flechette rounds should be banned then so should high explosive, and then, because people might get hurt, so should rifles, then can we get rid of rocks please because they might get thrown. It dosn't work. War is a horrible deverstating foul thing. Trying to sanitise it by equiping everyone with swords wont work. It never did.
Um, I'm not suggesting replacing modern equipment with swords (unless of course they're lightsabers). I'm simply talking about proportionality. I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Unless they're something like 'may the Force be with you' or 'I'm Batman'. But strawmen? Nah. I always preferred the Tin Man myself.

But anyway, you see one guy, and think it's proportionate to shoot a flechette at him?

Perhaps some rogue Israeli troops have indeed delibertly killed palastinian civilians. I have never met them to get a measure of what they are like. I however ask why, if genocide is their game, why is there a single palastinian still alive?
Kindly tell me where I suggested they are genocidal. All I have said is that this was disproportionate.

In this instance , no its not a sledgehammer to crack a nut. It's a poor foolish reporter standing in the line of fire between a Tank and a trenchline, thinking that a body armour protects against flechettes. :(
From your soldier's point of view, yes. From us meek civilians' point of view, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
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Keltoi
04-20-2008, 03:23 PM
Using a "sledgehammer to crack a nut" is sort of the point in military terms.
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Muezzin
04-20-2008, 03:25 PM
So maybe the military should be a little bit more careful as to which nuts they're targetting.

Note I said 'which' not 'whose'.
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barney
04-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Um, I'm not suggesting replacing modern equipment with swords (unless of course they're lightsabers). I'm simply talking about proportionality. I would really appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Unless they're something like 'may the Force be with you' or 'I'm Batman'. But strawmen? Nah. I always preferred the Tin Man myself.

But anyway, you see one guy, and think it's proportionate to shoot a flechette at him?


Kindly tell me where I suggested they are genocidal. All I have said is that this was disproportionate.


From your soldier's point of view, yes. From us meek civilians' point of view, it is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
OMG! That will teach me to type whilst hammered.
Sorry muzz. My bad.
I meant Gator. having said that I pretty much agree in some aspects with gators last post.

Sincere apologies for the typo. Let this be a warning to evryone on the bad effects of carlsberg. :(
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Pygoscelis
04-21-2008, 03:45 AM
Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.
The term "right to exist" is directly related to Hamas, because in their charter it states their goal is the destruction of Israel. From the standpoint of Israel, it doesn't really matter if the intention is to "exterminate" the Israeli people or to "change the regime and system of governance"...I'm afraid the differences here aren't that intricate. Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel, a terrorist organization that continues to fire rockets into Israeli territory on a daily basis. The "right to exist" goes hand in hand with Hamas ceasing terrorist operations and the firing of rockets.

It doesn't matter if Abbas and company sign off on a peace deal if Hamas refuses to recognize it and continue their attacks. Therefore requiring Hamas to recognize Israeli's right to exist is exactly the point.
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Roasted Cashew
04-21-2008, 04:43 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Israel needs to define the phrase "right to exist". By opposing "Israel's right to exist" does that mean I want to exterminate israeli people or does it just mean I want to change the regime and system of governance? Once we define the phrase we can actually engage in meaningful diagloge. I believe that phrase is used deliberately to avoid meaningful conversation.

Personally, I can never support Israel so long as it has a group of 2nd class citizens cooped up in concentrated areas. Give all palestinians equal citizenship, or split them off their own entirely independent country or something. The way it is now is just unaceptable, and I really am not suprised that they fight back.
Very good question. Israel hasn't "tried to get peace."
For example, Hamas observed a truce for year and a half, Israel refused to accept it and continued to carry out assassinations, bombings and illegally cutoff funds.

It simply isn't accurate to claim that Israel "values humans and lives of others." Israel continues to commit atrocities. Israel continues its takeover, annexation and cantonization programs. Israel did NOT try "to give the Palestinians there a good life." Israel turned Gaza into "one big Prison." See B’Tselem's report about the continued strangulation of the Gaza.

"Although Israel withdrew from Gaza more than a year ago, its control over the lives of Palestinians there is in some ways even tighter than before, a new report by an Israeli human rights organisation says"
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_s...strangled.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6270331.stm
http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_...aza_Status.asp

Whoever is telling you that "Israel always tried to get peace" is lying to you. They are not being honest about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. The 9th commandment says, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 02:33 PM
There are plenty of atrocities to go around from both sides. Palestinians playing the innocent victims of Israeli aggression isn't going to fly. You can thank Hamas for that.
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SATalha
04-21-2008, 03:56 PM
I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?
It has nothing to do with "Zionism", it is about the possibility of a peace deal. A peace deal will not and cannot occur without assurances from Hamas than their attacks will cease and that they will openly recognize the state of Israel. If not, who exactly is Israel supposed to make peace with?
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SATalha
04-21-2008, 04:20 PM
Oh its got everything to do with Zionism, since the birth of it! The rhetoric of people like Theodor Herzl and his ideas still run deeply within the Isreali guvernment. This mentality of destroying the Palestinina people and taking over their lands. Tell me how many settlements have gone up this years? And Isreal wants peace!! what a pathetic ecxuse, they are giving the Palestinians more and more reasons to fight and fight they shall.
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
Oh its got everything to do with Zionism, since the birth of it! The rhetoric of people like Theodor Herzl and his ideas still run deeply within the Isreali guvernment. This mentality of destroying the Palestinina people and taking over their lands. Tell me how many settlements have gone up this years? And Isreal wants peace!! what a pathetic ecxuse, they are giving the Palestinians more and more reasons to fight and fight they shall.
If Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people they better get started soon...

As for settlements, why should Israel make concessions in the face of Hamas attacks? It isn't politically possible to move settlements when Hamas continues to send suicide attackers and rockets. It would seen as giving in to terrorist strategies, which Israel will not do. A peace deal is very possible, but it requires Hamas to make concessions as well.
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Fishman
04-21-2008, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
I see the pro-zionist still at it on this forum?
:sl:
Insulting people doesn't help you win arguments, it just makes you feel better...
:w:
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SATalha
04-21-2008, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Insulting people doesn't help you win arguments, it just makes you feel better...
:w:
yeah your right....but i dont feel better....no insults intended. It was just an opinion Akhi
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Fishman
04-21-2008, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by SATalha
yeah your right....but i dont feel better....no insults intended. It was just an opinion Akhi
:sl:
That wasn't really meant as a personal thing, I was just saying that if you insult people or lavel them in an argument, it makes you feel that you are more right than them.
:w:
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barney
04-21-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
If Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people they better get started soon...

As for settlements, why should Israel make concessions in the face of Hamas attacks? It isn't politically possible to move settlements when Hamas continues to send suicide attackers and rockets. It would seen as giving in to terrorist strategies, which Israel will not do. A peace deal is very possible, but it requires Hamas to make concessions as well.
Unfortunatly Hamas need the Big Bad Zion just as much as the PLO and Black September ever did. So they will keep attacking, keep up the old enemy when peace is a simple matter.
They have to keep the palastinians looking the other way for their problems otherwise they would cease to exist.
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Unfortunatly Hamas need the Big Bad Zion just as much as the PLO and Black September ever did. So they will keep attacking, keep up the old enemy when peace is a simple matter.
They have to keep the palastinians looking the other way for their problems otherwise they would cease to exist.
I agree, that was never more apparent than when Arafat was calling the shots.
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barney
04-21-2008, 08:28 PM
Its a microscopic version of lots of other Arab states. The government can be as rrepressive and dictatorial as they want. People can get shot or flogged or put in mental hospitals or prison for speaking out, but it's all fine. Why? Well because theyre a god-fearing muslim government, or pretending to be, and they condem the Zionists who have caused all the peoples suffering.

Thousands of starving Iraqi's and their infant mortality rate show how much this campaign works. Who did the Iraqi's rage against in the ninetys. The Guy who was starving them? Or the Zionist conspiricy? Clue it begins with a Z and a C.
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Roasted Cashew
04-22-2008, 01:37 AM
I see most people here are very Naive. I don't think there is really any point discussing with people who have such naive mentalities.

Have you guys watched the award-winning documentary film called Occupation 101.
http://www.occupation101.com/

It's an awesome documentary. It starts here. You can go about and finish the ten parts. It will only broaden your perspective.
Occupation 101 Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU753cxpZBw

Maybe this part would address why there is hatred towards Jews. I am not condoning the hatred but you would do a great injustice to yourself if you don't know the cause.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfeO-irQQdY&NR=1


And yes, for those of you who think IDF's are saints, this is a good eye-opener:-

Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
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Keltoi
04-22-2008, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
I see most people here are very Naive. I don't think there is really any point discussing with people who have such naive mentalities.

Have you guys watched the award-winning documentary film called Occupation 101.
http://www.occupation101.com/

It's an awesome documentary. It starts here. You can go about and finish the ten parts. It will only broaden your perspective.
Occupation 101 Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU753cxpZBw

Maybe this part would address why there is hatred towards Jews. I am not condoning the hatred but you would do a great injustice to yourself if you don't know the cause.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfeO-irQQdY&NR=1


And yes, for those of you who think IDF's are saints, this is a good eye-opener:-

Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo
Nobody suggest anyone involved in this conflict was a saint. The issue isn't who the bad guy is, the issue is finding a peaceful settlement that both sides can live with. There are just as many Arabs who want this conflict to continue as there are Israelis.
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SATalha
04-22-2008, 10:34 PM
Ok Hamas are no longer invloved in the West Bank? Then why do Isreal continue to build settlements? Its clear that since the birth of this "nation" they have had only one aim, and that is to take all of the land and not live in peace with thier neighbours. Keltoi and others we have argue and debated many times over this matter, i have lost count. But hey at least this week we saw Carter doing the right thing and bringing Hamas to the table, i hope this is the first step in the right direction InshALlah.
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Muezzin
04-23-2008, 08:56 AM
My thread is doing an impression of a runaway train. Thus, it is being closed.
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