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islamirama
04-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Automakers step up in China as West wobbles
By Fang Yan and Chang-Ran Kim

Automobile industry executives at Beijing's bi-annual auto show forecast another boom year in China in 2008, with sales in the world's No. 2 car market rising and production ramping up to take advantage of lower costs.

Global automakers such as Volkswagen AG (VOWG.DE), General Motors Corp (GM.N) and Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) are increasingly relying on emerging markets such as China to take up the slack as U.S. and European consumers feel the pinch from slowing economies and rising prices.

"I say this internally all the time, but the company that gets China right is going to be the dominant player for the next 25 years," GM Chief Executive Rick Wagoner said at the Beijing Auto Show.

GM's China sales lagged in the first quarter due to winter storms that disrupted shipments, but the company ranked No. 2 by production in China last year is forecasting a recovery.

"We still expect a very good year and to grow in line with the market," GM's president and managing director Kevin Wale said.

GM expects total China car sales to rise about 16 percent in 2008, after climbing to 6.3 million in 2007. Most executives predicated the whole auto market, including trucks and buses, to reach 10 million units this year.

As big as the Chinese car market has become, just 44 out of every 1,000 people owns a vehicle, compared with an average 600 for the developed world and some 800 for the United States.

The number of vehicles on Chinese roads last year reached 47 million, parts maker Magna International said, a level equivalent to where the United States was in 1947.

"All the fundamentals are really, really good (for China to keep growing)," said Magna International Asia Pacific Executive Vice President Frank O'Brien.

Carlos Ghosn, chief executive officer of Nissan Motor Co (7201.T) and Renault SA (RENA.PA), agreed.

"If China is going to become the world's second-biggest economy -- if not the biggest -- you can expect the (per capita sales) number to reach at least 600," he told reporters at the auto show.

"You can imagine the growth prospects."

MORE CAPACITY

Banking on those prospects, Ford Motor Co (F.N) is considering building a third assembly plant in China to meet fast-growing demand just five years after entering the market, while Volkswagen's chief executive said he expects the German company to sell at least 1 million vehicles in China this year.

Luxury brands such as Germany's BMW (BMWG.DE) and Daimler's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes division are also eyeing China's growing elite to boost global demand for top-end vehicles.

BMW's China venture, Brilliance Auto, plans to nearly triple capacity in the next four years, aiming to produce about 100,000 vehicles a year by 2012.

Qi Yumin, chairman of Brilliance Auto, the state parent of the Hong Kong-listed unit, Brilliance China Automotive Ltd (1114.HK)(600609.SS), said the company was still in talks with BMW to build a second plant in China, but gave no further details.

Despite BMW's aggressive growth plan, the chief executive of Daimler, Dieter Zetsche, said he was convinced his Mercedes Benz unit, which launched its GLK small SUV in China at the show, would overtake BMW in the market.

But with soaring oil costs a major challenge facing the auto industry, many carmakers are shifting their focus to smaller, cheaper, more fuel-efficient models -- despite the threat to margins.

Honda Motor Co (7267.T) unveiled on Sunday the new Fit subcompact for China, while Toyota did the same with its rival car Yaris.

Japan's Mitsubishi Motors (7211.T), meanwhile, said it is developing a low-cost car that it aims to start selling in China and elsewhere from around 2010. The car, expected to be priced under $10,000, would be based on a 660cc mini-vehicle platform currently only used in Japan, President Osamu Masuko said.

Mitsubishi Motors also announced plans to nearly double capacity at two Chinese engine plants in which it has minority stakes. The plant sells to 20-some local carmakers, but Masuko said China could eventually become an export base for Mitsubishi engines to supply other countries, thanks to its lower cost base.

Reducing production costs is taking on greater urgency as major developed markets stumble.

Mitsubishi said its 2008 U.S. sales target would be tough to achieve, given industry-wide forecasts for sales to fall as low as 14.5 million vehicles. For the first three months of 2008, the U.S. market shrank 6.2 percent from the year earlier.

But Nissan's Ghosn sounded a brighter note, saying he was not revising down his forecast for 2008 U.S. industry sales of 15.5 million units.

"I don't believe it will be below this," he said, though adding the risk was on the downside.

"The economy in the United States is adjusting very quickly."

($1=103.65 Yen)

(Additional reporting by Jong-woo Cheon, Marcel Michelson, Kevin Krolicki; Writing by Lincoln Feast; Editing by Ken Wills)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080420/bs_nm/autoshow_dc_2
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KAding
04-21-2008, 01:42 PM
Does the rise of China ever worry Muslims? I mean, this country is on the one hand fiercely atheist and traditionally Chinese religion is polytheistic.

Will China be a friend of the Muslim World?
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Does the rise of China ever worry Muslims? I mean, this country is on the one hand fiercely atheist and traditionally Chinese religion is polytheistic.

Will China be a friend of the Muslim World?
China will need to be a friend with anyone who has access to oil, even more so in the next twenty years.

Unless they decide to take it of course.
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Fishman
04-21-2008, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
China will need to be a friend with anyone who has access to oil, even more so in the next twenty years.

Unless they decide to take it of course.
:sl:
Are you suggesting China would try to conquer the middle east? It sounds more like a video game than reality...
:w:
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islamirama
04-22-2008, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Does the rise of China ever worry Muslims? I mean, this country is on the one hand fiercely atheist and traditionally Chinese religion is polytheistic.

Will China be a friend of the Muslim World?
Muslims aren't worried about China. It's not a capitalist parasite that engages in regime changes, ruler's assassinations, and false flag operations among other things for "national interest".
Reply

Keltoi
04-22-2008, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Are you suggesting China would try to conquer the middle east? It sounds more like a video game than reality...
:w:
When oil starts to become more and more expensive and harder to obtain you will be surpised what many countries are willing to do. The Japanese attacked the U.S. at Pearl Harbor to protect their interest in resources. It isn't a "video game" at all.
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Keltoi
04-22-2008, 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims aren't worried about China. It's not a capitalist parasite that engages in regime changes, ruler's assassinations, and false flag operations among other things for "national interest".
Why don't you find out what China does to its Muslim minority? Then come back and explain why Muslims aren't worried about China.
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kirk
04-22-2008, 03:09 AM
And compare that with how America treats it's Muslim minority.

k
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KAding
04-22-2008, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims aren't worried about China. It's not a capitalist parasite that engages in regime changes, ruler's assassinations, and false flag operations among other things for "national interest".
And you don't think it will start doing those things once it becomes a 'Great Power'? Why not? What makes you think it will behave differently from the US, UK or the USSR in the Muslim world? Because it is a Capitalist/Communist hybrid regime?
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Al-Zaara
04-22-2008, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Why don't you find out what China does to its Muslim minority? Then come back and explain why Muslims aren't worried about China.
Exactly! Don't forget the Uyghurs. The Muslims in China most certainly don't have it easy, subhanAllah.
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MTAFFI
04-22-2008, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims aren't worried about China. It's not a capitalist parasite that engages in regime changes, ruler's assassinations, and false flag operations among other things for "national interest".
i think you may want to try a little research on China... assasinations are almost as common as executing leaders in public for "national interest"... Also perhaps you didnt get the news today, and hopefully this will finally and forever debunk your theory that the WTC was a government plot..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080422/...ida_al_zawahri

also take note that capitalism is not at all a bad thing, in fact free market seems to be the way to go as far as I am concerned... Of course you could go visit any number of the 1000's of sweat shops and villages in China that get paid a penny a day for 8 hours of work while their government soaks up all of the trade money and takes the people land from them as the feel necessary according to "national interests"

Believe me, China is very much a threat to the entire world, US and Muslims alike, should they decide to be..
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snakelegs
04-22-2008, 07:29 PM
i wonder why the chinese don't make their own cars? they seem quite capable of turning out good quality products.
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Keltoi
04-22-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i wonder why the chinese don't make their own cars? they seem quite capable of turning out good quality products.
Like toys with lead paint? :D Sorry, couldn't resist.
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snakelegs
04-22-2008, 11:38 PM
:giggling: er.... um, yeah.
actually, i was thinking of their electronics stuff which seems to be pretty good.
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islamirama
04-22-2008, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
i think you may want to try a little research on China... assasinations are almost as common as executing leaders in public for "national interest"... Also perhaps you didnt get the news today, and hopefully this will finally and forever debunk your theory that the WTC was a government plot..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080422/...ida_al_zawahri

also take note that capitalism is not at all a bad thing, in fact free market seems to be the way to go as far as I am concerned... Of course you could go visit any number of the 1000's of sweat shops and villages in China that get paid a penny a day for 8 hours of work while their government soaks up all of the trade money and takes the people land from them as the feel necessary according to "national interests"

Believe me, China is very much a threat to the entire world, US and Muslims alike, should they decide to be..
your yahoo news is useless, don't waste my time with that trash.

We have seen the deeds of US, I say we give china a chance to see what they can do. Besides, the way US dollar and economy is going vs China's, it looks like the world doesn't have much of a choice.

What little left in US Dollar is because of over a trillion dollar of China's investments in the dollar and the west. First it was saddam who tried, then iran and chavez turned this way and now china said it no longer will peg against the dollar. Looks like a depression is coming....

http://economistsview.typepad.com/ec...drops_peg.html
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Fishman
04-24-2008, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
We have seen the deeds of US, I say we give china a chance to see what they can do.
:sl:
We have also seen what China can do, and it was much worse than the USA. American pressure during the Cold War was the only reason why China even allows Islam to exist inside its borders. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
:w:
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islamirama
04-24-2008, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
We have also seen what China can do, and it was much worse than the USA. American pressure during the Cold War was the only reason why China even allows Islam to exist inside its borders. The enemy of your enemy is not your friend.
:w:
:w:

Chinese didn't starve to deathl over 1 milion iraqi children and then go on national tv and say it was worth it. China didn't wage WMD war based on lies upon lies and has killed 1 million iraqis and continue to do so and occupy muslim land. China didn't team up with terrorist and war lords to over throw a muslim gov't (afghan) and occupy it. China does not support zionist terrorists with financial, political, economically, and military backing nor hinder anyone else from passing any resolutions in UN against zinoist terrorism. China is not leading a war on Islam nor has bigots from religious to secular, laymen to politicians attacking anti-islam propaganda. China isn't making movies and tv shows with Muslims as "terrorists", preparing it's public to relax its views for concentration camps for Muslims when time comes.

I say we give china a chance, cuz we sure as hell don't want US demon-cracy in the Muslim world anymore.
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Fishman
04-25-2008, 07:22 PM
:sl:
Chinese didn't starve to deathl over 1 milion iraqi children and then go on national tv and say it was worth it. China didn't wage WMD war based on lies upon lies and has killed 1 million iraqis and continue to do so and occupy muslim land.
China forced thousands of imams to abandon Islam and work in the fields. They would throw pork and alcohol at them and parade them through the streets to humiliate them. And they occupy Muslim land (east Turkestan), where they surpress any protests against their rule as 'terrorism'.

China didn't team up with terrorist and war lords to over throw a muslim gov't (afghan) and occupy it.
China still occupies East Turkestan. And if a Muslim country was deemed a threat to Chinese rule in East Turkestan they would be crushed even worse than the Taliban were.
China does not support zionist terrorists with financial, political, economically, and military backing nor hinder anyone else from passing any resolutions in UN against zinoist terrorism.
China supports Jinjaweed terrorists who have killed far more Muslims than the Israelis ever have. China supports dictators in Burma and Zimbabwe. China occupies Kashmir. China threatens to take over Taiwan all the time.

China is not leading a war on Islam nor has bigots from religious to secular, laymen to politicians attacking anti-islam propaganda.
America has never lead a war on Islam, whilst China tried to eradicate all religion. They have merely relaxed their persecution now, as America wouldn't like it.
And America stopped the last war on Islam, the Bosnian genocide. there was no oil or other resource at stake then.

China isn't making movies and tv shows with Muslims as "terrorists", preparing it's public to relax its views for concentration camps for Muslims when time comes.
China already had labour camps for Muslims. Again, they've stopped now because the USA wants freedom of religion.

I say we give china a chance, cuz we sure as hell don't want US demon-cracy in the Muslim world anymore.
And you would rather have Maoist Communism instead?
:w:
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 07:27 PM
hey fishman

study ME history and US involvement, i think you'll get a shock of your life. You can be as patrioritic as you want but quite frankly, rest of the Muslim world hates US. We have seen the fruits of this regime and to be honest, this nation and it's crooks are always in our duas (and don't think that as a compliment).
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omar_2133
04-25-2008, 07:27 PM
Chinese didn't starve to deathl
Are you kidding? It suffered the worst famine in human history, where 30 million Chinese died over the period from 1958 to 1961, under Mao's policies.

China is not leading a war on Islam nor has bigots from religious to secular, laymen to politicians attacking anti-islam propaganda
It is not leading a war, but it certainly is persecuting its minority Uighur population of Turkic Muslims in the Xinjiang province, a fact that has only intensified in the aftermath of 9/11. The situation there is the Muslim equivalent of Tibet, albeit a much-less recognized one, among so many people, Muslims included.

China 'crushing Muslim Uighurs'

I can understand perfectly why you wouldn't the US in your backyard, but counting on a nation which carries out detentions, executions, tortures and actually does repress our fellow Muslims, for standing up for their faith is just as bad, if not worse.

Even outside of the province, you still cannot ignore the virtual state-sanctioned Islam that exists for many, or as it's called, "Islam with Chinese characteristics", in an effort to maintain communist control.

Chinese Muslims forge isolated path

Muslim voices rising in China

I'll have to agree with Fishman on this. I mean, if you really think that we should give a nation, that bans Uighur children from attending the mosque, studying Islam and gaining knowledge, celebrating Eid, reading out the sermons they want on the Friday, and warning them not to fight this tyranny, and stray away from their version of Islam, a chance, then I think you're making a grave mistake.
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Fishman
04-25-2008, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
hey fishman

study ME history and US involvement, i think you'll get a shock of your life. You can be as patrioritic as you want but quite frankly, rest of the Muslim world hates US. We have seen the fruits of this regime and to be honest, this nation and it's crooks are always in our duas (and don't think that as a compliment).
:sl:
Patriotic? I'm British! In fact I'm also a socialist, which means that I don't have some kind of irrational hatred for Communists either. Their economics are relatively fair, I just don't like the political repression.

Yes, the Muslim world does hate the US. But if China is in power instead, things will be a lot worse. Just ask the people who have suffered because of Chinese intervention. Darfuris. East Turkestanis. Burmese people. Zimbabweans. Kashmiris. Tibetans. Hui Muslims.

But if the Chinese had not broken with the USSR over political differences, then we would all be speaking Russian by now. Any group that controlled that much of Asia would be invincible, with massive amounts of resources, population, nuclear weapons, land, food production, industry and millitary power. they would also be impossible to defeat because they would control the ultimate natural fortress, the Heartland.
:w:
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 07:52 PM
China may have its bads and what not. But if it's china vs US then i pick china. why? even if they turn out to be rotten like US, atleast they would be reachable by mujahideens to kick their butt like they did with russians in afghanistan.
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Fishman
04-25-2008, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
China may have its bads and what not. But if it's china vs US then i pick china. why? even if they turn out to be rotten like US, atleast they would be reachable by mujahideens to kick their butt like they did with russians in afghanistan.
:sl:
The 'Mujahideens' would get pwned and the Chinese would probably kill everybody else too. It was part of Mao's belief system that if you want to catch fish (terrorists and revolutionaries) you shouldn't just fish around with a rod, you should drain the whole lake, meaning destroy the popluation that supports the terrorists. Chinese soldiers have to read Mao's Little Red Book every day.

And the Taliban might have given the Russians a hard time in Afganistan, but that was only because the Americans armed them with SAM missiles, and because they didn't really fight well in the terrain.
:w:
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 08:51 PM
Who knows what the future holds, inshallah may Allah guide the muslims and unite them soon.

ameen.
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Amadeus85
04-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
:w:



I say we give china a chance, cuz we sure as hell don't want US demon-cracy in the Muslim world anymore.
Islamirama, you remind me guys from an old rock band Rage Against the Machine. They were calling USA the "evil empire". They compared U.S presidents to nazi generals, they were hanging out in t-shirts with Che Guevara, they were admiring Fidel Castro etc etc and in the same they they were drinking orange juice in swimming pool in California,using all the benefits of U.S capitalism and democracy.
You Islamirama also lives in U.S right? :D So why don't you give a chance to China and move there, instead of living in U.S evil empire.
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Islamirama, you remind me guys from an old rock band Rage Against the Machine. They were calling USA the "evil empire". They compared U.S presidents to nazi generals, they were hanging out in t-shirts with Che Guevara, they were admiring Fidel Castro etc etc and in the same they they were drinking orange juice in swimming pool in California,using all the benefits of U.S capitalism and democracy.
You Islamirama also lives in U.S right? :D So why don't you give a chance to China and move there, instead of living in U.S evil empire.
I'm calling it as i see it buddy. US has done more evil then good in the world and majority (muslim or not) will agree with that. Anyways, i'm not living here for free, so why buggin you :D
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Amadeus85
04-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
I'm calling it as i see it buddy. US has done more evil then good in the world and majority (muslim or not) will agree with that. Anyways, i'm not living here for free, so why buggin you :D
I understand that you pay taxes etc etc. I am also sure that you as a muslim would get more religious freedom in USA than in China.Thats all what I meant. :statisfie
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I understand that you pay taxes etc etc. I am also sure that you as a muslim would get more religious freedom in USA than in China.Thats all what I meant. :statisfie
speaking of taxes, there's a growing trend in US of people not paying taxes to protest against the war. People leaving their 100K job to earn minimum wage so they don't have to pay taxes. Very interesting article, i posted here somewhere few days ago. do check it out :)
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barney
04-25-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Are you suggesting China would try to conquer the middle east? It sounds more like a video game than reality...
:w:

It's in Revelations.

Having said that,The Chucklebrothers riding a cloud to tesco's is in revalations if you squint hard enough. (ill prove that if you like).

There will no doubt be a faction of muslims cheering, as they predict the fall of the evil empire of the USA.
To those, I'll smile and say, take a good look at the world now, and give it a hug.
Because theres one undeniable truth. If China becomes a superpower over America, you can kiss mankind goodbye. The world will be screaming for the Yanks, and it will be sadly far far too late.
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islamirama
04-25-2008, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by barney
It's in Revelations.

Having said that,The Chucklebrothers riding a cloud to tesco's is in revalations if you squint hard enough. (ill prove that if you like).

There will no doubt be a faction of muslims cheering, as they predict the fall of the evil empire of the USA.
To those, I'll smile and say, take a good look at the world now, and give it a hug.
Because theres one undeniable truth. If China becomes a superpower over America, you can kiss mankind goodbye. The world will be screaming for the Yanks, and it will be sadly far far too late.
the world did survived for centuries before the "great and mighty" usa came along. This empire done more evil in it's 200yrs of existence than any other empire. I can understand your fear of change and new super power, especially one that isn't your ally nor your skin color.
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Keltoi
04-26-2008, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama
the world did survived for centuries before the "great and mighty" usa came along. This empire done more evil in it's 200yrs of existence than any other empire. I can understand your fear of change and new super power, especially one that isn't your ally nor your skin color.
"This empire done more evil...blah blah than any other empire"....do you really believe that? If so, perhaps you are the one who should study a little history.

In any event, what is at stake is a system of governance, not racial dominance. If Western democracy does fail, which doesn't seem likely, but let us theorize...if it does fail, there will be many millions of people around the world who will yearn for the days of your "evil USA". Talk to some of the people who have lived under Communist rule, ask what superpower they would prefer.
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Fishman
04-26-2008, 04:42 PM
[quote=islamirama;933135]
This empire done more evil in it's 200yrs of existence than any other empire.
:sl:
Ever heard of the Spanish Empire? The Mongol Empire? Or the Nazi Empire? America's atrocities pale in comparison to the genocidal slaughters commited by these countries, and in fact any other empire you can think of with the exeception of the Central African Empire.
In fact, the USA isn't even an empire in the proper sense of the word (a country that rules over many conquered peoples). The current foregin policy may be mildly imperialistic, and there was a kind of semi-empire in the 1800s, but technically it isn't really an empire anyway.

I can understand your fear of change and new super power, especially one that isn't your ally nor your skin color.
I don't know about Barney, but for me skin colour isn't really anything to do with it. I admire Chinese culture, and I think China deserves to be honoured as the only surviving ancient civilisation. But with the current (and recent past) Chinese policies, the idea of China becoming a superpower is rather worrying. I would rather have India or Brazil, to be honest.
:w:
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barney
04-26-2008, 04:56 PM
I cant think of another "Empire" that rebuilt a deverstated world up from scratch.
Nor another "Empire" that consisted of its own country, Hawai a few scattered islands and a small bay in Cuba. Thats the worst Empire that controls the world ever.

Still, people are so rabidly anti-american these days, theres no reasoning or showing them facts and logic and history. Truth flies out of the window in the face of propaganda and emotion.

Just have to be a case of wait and see for these people. :(
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Fishman
04-26-2008, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by barney
Thats the worst Empire that controls the world ever.
:sl:
Central africa was even more pathetic...
:w:
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islamirama
04-26-2008, 07:19 PM
Well lets look at a little facts.

the complete genocide of native americans
the holocaust of africans, destruction of their thriving empire and slavement of their people
the illegal wars with mexico to steal their land (half of USA). only thing these britsh lackies had were the 13 original colonies.
the meddling of in other nation's affairs thru out history. The assasination of their leaders, regime changes, protection of US friendly dictators or puppet regime leaders, all that goes under indirect ruling rather then the old ways of direct ruling, except iraq and afghan.

Anyways, don't know why you all are crying over china coming to power. it's a normal circle of world, one empire falls and another arises.
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Fishman
04-26-2008, 07:57 PM
[quote=islamirama;933415]Well lets look at a little facts.

the complete genocide of native americans
Not complete genocide, native Americans are still alive and well. There was a genocide of them, but most other empires have done similar or worse. And that is hardly the modern USA, that was the semi-empire I mentioned before.

the holocaust of africans, destruction of their thriving empire and slavement of their people
Western Europeans and Arabs started it, and the USA abolished slavery before most other countries did.

the illegal wars with mexico to steal their land (half of USA). only thing these britsh lackies had were the 13 original colonies.
That's pretty minor compared to the other empires. And, as I said before, there was a semi-imperial period in American history. But it doesn't continue into present day.

the meddling of in other nation's affairs thru out history. The assasination of their leaders, regime changes, protection of US friendly dictators or puppet regime leaders, all that goes under indirect ruling rather then the old ways of direct ruling, except iraq and afghan.
Every powerful country does that, not just the USA. Its called politics.

Anyways, don't know why you all are crying over china coming to power. it's a normal circle of world, one empire falls and another arises.
Just because something is normal doesn't mean its good. A volcanic eruption is a normal thing in some places in the world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to escape from getting caught in the blast!


Here is my list of what the Mongols did. I'm sure that you will find it much worse than the USA:
1. Pillaging central Asia so that its economy was (and still is) completely destroyed
2. Sacking cities in central Asia, depopulating the whole region
2+1. Destroying major cities such as Baghdad and Dehli
4. Ending the Caliphate
5. Keeping the Caliph in a small cage
5. Conquering China
6. Devastating China
7. Conquering and devastating eastern Europe.
8. Forcing Siberian natives to pay tribute or be destroyed.
9. Repeatedly betraying their allies.
:w:
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Fishman
04-26-2008, 08:09 PM
:sl:
Oh, great. A thread about empires and I didn't even try to make any silly comments about Civilization IV or the Fishman Empire or something...

Oh, drat! Muttley!

:w:
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islamirama
04-26-2008, 08:17 PM
Fishman,

there's no point arguing with you or others here on this topic. apparently you guys have your heart set on what you believe. just a few quick notes.

Mongol was bad, khan killed lots of people. His grandson became a Muslim and fought his own father and destroyed the Mongol empire.

The caliphate was destroyed by the westerners not mongols. it was destroyed in 1923 by the jewish kemal attaturk with western friends like US, France, Britian and few others. Read the history on tis.

anyways, regardless of what you or i believe, what is to come will come and time will tell whose the worst of the lots. I just pray inshallah madhi comes soon and show them.
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Fishman
04-26-2008, 08:25 PM
:sl:
there's no point arguing with you or others here on this topic. apparently you guys have your heart set on what you believe. just a few quick notes.
Your notes are wrong, see below.

Mongol was bad, he killed lots of people. His grandson became a Muslim and fought his on father and destroyed the Mongol empire.
There is no such person as 'mongol'. the person you are referring to was called 'Genghis Khan'. And his grandson never destroyed the Mongol empire. The empire collapsed in on itself and broke into several 'hordes' or Khanates.

The caliphate was destroyed by the westerners not mongols. it was destroyed in 1923 by the jewish kemal attaturk with western friends like US, France, Britian and few others. Read the history on tis.
I am referring to the original Caliphate, not the Ottoman Empire. The Caliphate I'm talking about was the orginal one that was descended from the Rashidun Empire and the Prophet (peace be upon him)'s state.

anyways, regardless of what you or i believe, what is to come will come and time will tell whose the worst of the lots. I just pray inshallah madhi comes soon and show them.
Ameen.
:w:
Reply

islamirama
04-26-2008, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:


There is no such person as 'mongol'. the person you are referring to was called 'Genghis Khan'. And his grandson never destroyed the Mongol empire. The empire collapsed in on itself and broke into several 'hordes' or Khanates.
:w:

I know, when i say mongol i was refering to mongols, which is why i speicifically mentioned khan in the next sentence. The empire was bound to collapse when the grandson defeated his father and his army. What's an empire without a leader?

I am referring to the original Caliphate, not the Ottoman Empire. The Caliphate I'm talking about was the orginal one that was descended from the Rashidun Empire and the Prophet (peace be upon him)'s state.

Ameen.
:w:
The caliphate you are talking about was a caliphate by name only. They were morons at that time. The moron king/caliphate of that time was messing with the khan's people for no reason. He had too much pride in himself. Khan was busy taking over china side of the world when this caliphate started sticking his hand in the bee's nest. Khan sent his diplomats to sort it out and this moron killed the diplomats too. So khan put his work on hold against the chinese and started towards Muslims. He killed 10 million muslims. It was the punishment for muslims who had abandoned islam and were nothing more than muslims by names. And Islam was almost wiped out. Then Allah guided the grandson of khan and made him a defense against the enemies and a beacon of light for islam. Indeed it is easy for Allah to destroy a nation and raise better nation that will obey Allah.
Reply

Fishman
04-26-2008, 09:09 PM
[quote=islamirama;933475]:w:

I know, when i say mongol i was refering to mongols, which is why i speicifically mentioned khan in the next sentence. The empire was bound to collapse when the grandson defeated his father and his army. What's an empire without a leader?
Sorry, I didn't see the word Khan there.


The caliphate you are talking about was a caliphate by name only. They were morons at that time. The moron king/caliphate of that time was messing with the khan's people for no reason. He had too much pride in himself. Khan was busy taking over china side of the world when this caliphate started sticking his hand in the bee's nest. Khan sent his diplomats to sort it out and this moron killed the diplomats too. So khan put his work on hold against the chinese and started towards Muslims. He killed 10 million muslims. It was the punishment for muslims who had abandoned islam and were nothing more than muslims by names. And Islam was almost wiped out. Then Allah guided the grandson of khan and made him a defense against the enemies and a beacon of light for islam. Indeed it is easy for Allah to destroy a nation and raise better nation that will obey Allah.
It was the Shah of Iran who started on the Mongols and killed their diplomats, not the Caliph. Genghis wanted good relations with the Iranians for the time, so he sent some diplomats to establish good relations. the Shah, knowing what happened to Genghis Khan's other allies, didn't want relations with such a person and had the diplomats killed. So in response, the Khan destroyed the country and slaughtered its inhabitants.

In fact the destroyer of Baghdad was Hulagu Khan, not Genghis Khan.

Genghis Khan's grandson did convert to Islam. However, he didn't attack his father as you claimed, or did he conquer back his lands. He did attack Hulagu Khan's empire, but certainly didn't reconquer the whole empire. He didn't really take much territory off him.
:w:
Reply

FatimaAsSideqah
04-26-2008, 09:18 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

This link will explaining about Islam in China History:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_China
Reply

islamirama
04-26-2008, 09:25 PM
On the eve of the Mongol invasion, the spiritual state of the Muslim world was pathetic. Corruption, disunity, and materialism were rampant. Khwarizm Shah was not the only example of insufferable leadership. The Abbasid Caliph, Al-Mustasim, was reportedly pleased to hear of the collapse of Khwarizm Shah’s empire because of his personal dislike for the monarch. Before the Mongols reached Baghdad, the Caliph's advisors had convinced him to seriously scale back the army. The city was in no way prepared to withstand what lay in store for it.


And yet Islam did not die. Genghis Khan who proclaimed himself as the Scourge of God, who delighted in the rape of conquered women could not exterminate the Muslim Ummah. Within a generation the tide had begun to turn in Islam’s favor. Baghdad was destroyed by Genghis’ grandson Halaku but his great grandson Berek became a Muslim. In fact, Berek withdrew his forces from Halaku’s army after the fall of Baghdad which contributed to the first defeat the Mongols suffered against the Muslims during the battle of Ayn Jalut in 1260. The aura of the Mongols’ terrifying invincibility was broken. Three years later Berek himself would defeat Halaku’s forces in the Caucus region. Those who tried to destroy Islam became its protectors.



Historical Sources:
Saviors of the Islamic Spirit, Volume 1, by Abul Hasan Ali Nadwi
History of Islam, Volume 2, by Masudul Hasan
A Short History of the Saracens, by Amir Ali



---------------



now lets get back to topic....
Reply

snakelegs
04-26-2008, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
The caliphate was destroyed by the westerners not mongols. it was destroyed in 1923 by the jewish kemal attaturk
whoppeeee - attaturk was a jew!

i shudda knowed!
Reply

islamirama
04-26-2008, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
whoppeeee - attaturk was a jew!

i shudda knowed!
http://www.khilafah.com/kcom/the-khi...fah-state.html
Reply

snakelegs
04-26-2008, 10:13 PM
thanks - i read the article (but not the comments).
if there was any mention of attaturk being a jew, i missed it.
Reply

islamirama
04-26-2008, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
thanks - i read the article (but not the comments).
if there was any mention of attaturk being a jew, i missed it.
hmm thought it would mention it, i don't have the link to the article i have saved up. but try this one...

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index...d=593&Itemid=2
Reply

snakelegs
04-26-2008, 10:36 PM
i almost didn't read it because of the evil looking photo of the guy in the top hate with a big star of david on it, labelled "jewish dictator mustafa kemal".
anyway, i did read it and yes, it does cover it. this is the first time i have ever read that attaturk's ancestors were sabbetaeans. it could be true - i'd like to find it in some more objective source.
anyway, thanks for the link....
Reply

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