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Fishermans_eye
04-21-2008, 03:50 AM
Nationalism in any form is the eternal enemy against the Ummah and Islam.

Some believe that Islam has traditionally been anti-nationalist. These proponents believe that racism and nationalism of various segments of the Middle East was abolished and outlawed when Muhammad took political power with Islam[citation needed]. Later the Caliphs ruled, and expanded a form of Islamic equality with the expanding transnational Caliphate state. According to this view, the anti-nationalism did not last throughout the history of the Muslim world. Instead, many Muslims have warred with each other over tribe or nation,[citation needed] which seems to be at odds with Islamic teaching.[citation needed] The anti-nationalist movements within Islam are based upon dictates of the Quran and Muhammads speech (Hadith). According to supporters of this view, Muhammad is known to have made many references to the ills of nationalism such as:

'People should give up their pride in nations because this is a coal from the coals of hell-fire. If they do not give this up Allah (swt) will consider them lower than a lowly dung worm which pushes itself through feces.' (recorded by Abu-Dawood and al-Tirmidhi)

Some Muslims argue that the roots of nationalism are found in the sin of pride by the devil shaytaan himself.[1]

Critics of this idea believe that religious nationalism is exactly the same as ethnic nationalism, thus the Islamic religion was no less nationalist than the states it destroyed. This idea may be faulty because, in some aspects, group feeling based on a shared ideology is quite different from group feeling based on a shared race or country of origin. One cannot change what race they belong to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-na...ti-nationalism

Arab nationalism is kind of dead. Islam is winning, you can read about the conflict here. Very good article from Al Jazeera.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...3A8503BAFA.htm

What bothers me the most is Turkic nationalism. They want to make an unified nation from Turkey to Kyrgyztan. It's going to be called "Turan". I'm a proud Turk, but I know it goes against Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism

Western support for Turanism started with the Carter Administration and is a policy still held by the Bush Administration.The goal of this policy first developed by the Carter Administration was a pro-insurgency program developed to aid and inspire internal uprisings within the Islamic communities within the Soviet Union. It is believed that the CIA covertly supported the growth of the Chechan separatist and jihadist movements during the years of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan as an effective tool against the Soviets and later the Russians. This pro-Turanic policies of the Bush Administration have led to US support for Azerbajian, Uzbekistan,Tajikistan and Turkmenistan.The US has been a major contributor to oil projects in Azerbajian and other post-Soviet Turkic republics.
Sounds like the British that created Arab Nationalism against the Ottoman Empire doesn't it?:D
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Keltoi
04-21-2008, 04:42 AM
This is sort of a humorous question to me. Say nationalism among Muslims did die out...what exactly would replace it? Am I to gather that Muslims would have no homeland to call their own? I understand what is meant by this...meaning only Islam itself would be worthy of allegiance...but this has been tried before. Most notably by the Communists in the Soviet Union. Ironically, when the Nazis invaded Russia, the Communists turned to nationalism to rally the people.

Perhaps this anti-nationalist attitude is why so many Muslims seem to view the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a war against Islam? Because they believe nationalism is wrong and simply don't wish to think in terms of borders and geography?
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Fishermans_eye
04-21-2008, 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is sort of a humorous question to me. Say nationalism among Muslims did die out...what exactly would replace it? Am I to gather that Muslims would have no homeland to call their own? I understand what is meant by this...meaning only Islam itself would be worthy of allegiance...but this has been tried before. Most notably by the Communists in the Soviet Union. Ironically, when the Nazis invaded Russia, the Communists turned to nationalism to rally the people.
The modern Arabic nations where reated by the west. Jordan was never a nation, it was created by the British cause a Sheikh wanted it.
"Palestine", is also not a nation but a province. It was also created by the British and the UN. These nations do not exist, you can see it in their borders. They have been drawn on a map in London.

Perhaps this anti-nationalist attitude is why so many Muslims seem to view the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a war against Islam? Because they believe nationalism is wrong and simply don't wish to think in terms of borders and geography?
Afghanistan does not bother most Muslims. Iraq bothers all Arabs. Do you see the connection?
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snakelegs
04-22-2008, 04:48 AM
if you are speaking of arab nationalism specifically, i think it would go against "All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab" (from the prophet's last sermon.)
i think the problem would be if you made your nation an idol. i don't think there is anything wrong with being loyal to/proud of your country etc as long as it does not require you to go against your religion - do you?
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north_malaysian
04-22-2008, 05:50 AM
The Malaysian nationalists lost five states (out of 13) in last general election (March 2008)... and two states were ruled by Islamists...

Nationalism is not popular among Malaysian young voters...
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Al-Zaara
04-22-2008, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think the problem would be if you made your nation an idol. i don't think there is anything wrong with being loyal to/proud of your country etc as long as it does not require you to go against your religion - do you?
This is how I think.


Originally Posted by Fishermans_eye
Nationalism in any form is the eternal enemy against the Ummah and Islam.
No, I have to disagree.


What bothers me the most is Turkic nationalism. They want to make an unified nation from Turkey to Kyrgyztan. It's going to be called "Turan". I'm a proud Turk, but I know it goes against Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanism
I usually avoid Wikipedia, there are better sources out there. But lol, that idea is ridicilous and I doubt it would ever work to be honest and the supporters probably would realize that sooner or later. I doubt any Finn for that matter would like the idea! Haha. ;D

What is far less known is the role of foreign (non-Turkish) interests in the manipulation of the Turks to service wider geopolitical interests. It is truly an irony that the idea of a Turanian empire never originated amongst the Ottoman Turks, but by a man of European descent.
Yea, typical..
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
if you are speaking of arab nationalism specifically,
Arab nationalism is dead, Pan Turanism is a greater threat to the ummah.

Originally Posted by north_malaysian
The Malaysian nationalists lost five states (out of 13) in last general election (March 2008)... and two states were ruled by Islamists...

Nationalism is not popular among Malaysian young voters...
Great news!:D

Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
I usually avoid Wikipedia, there are better sources out there.
Nothing wrong with Wikipedia. What do you mean then, schoolbooks? Half of the worlds schoolbooks (20 years ago), said that there is no God and religious people are deluded.
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Al-Zaara
04-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Fishermans_eye
Nothing wrong with Wikipedia. What do you mean then, schoolbooks? Half of the worlds schoolbooks (20 years ago), said that there is no God and religious people are deluded.
Oh come on, even schoolbooks I'd suggest are better than a site in which anyone can write in.

I wasn't refferring to schoolbooks, but other historical books or old people who have lived through that what you just suggest. 20 years ago they said there wasn't a God in the schoolbooks? I wonder were you get your information from, it sounds more like what they would say today.
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Oh come on, even schoolbooks I'd suggest are better than a site in which anyone can write in.
Such as FoxNews?

I wasn't refferring to schoolbooks, but other historical books or old people who have lived through that what you just suggest. 20 years ago they said there wasn't a God in the schoolbooks? I wonder were you get your information from, it sounds more like what they would say today.
The Soviet union had half the world. And Africa/South America didn't have that many Schools.
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Al-Zaara
04-22-2008, 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Fishermans_eye
Such as FoxNews?
Maybe, I don't watch.

The Soviet union had half the world. And Africa/South America didn't have that many Schools.
That really didn't stop the religious thoughts to still expand exist, no.
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Amadeus85
04-22-2008, 03:58 PM
In my opinion modern nationalism was one of the factors which helped to create the welfare and richness of Europe.The Western Europe was able to stand up and rise from the War World II disaster also because these countries were ethnicly homogeneous. It was easier to make big reforms for the whole country then, there was bigger amount of social trust and peace, no ethnic tensions. Thats why i think that nowadays multicultural illusion may lead to big problems.
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
Maybe, I don't watch.
You should, it's very fun. They don't hide of being biased. Serious ones like BBC hide their biased opinions well. FoxNews is very open about them.

That really didn't stop the religious thoughts to still expand exist, no.
Why does it feel like you just want to debate and win it?:D
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
In my opinion modern nationalism was one of the factors which helped to create the welfare and richness of Europe.The Western Europe was able to stand up and rise from the War World II disaster also because these countries were ethnicly homogeneous. It was easier to make big reforms for the whole country then, there was bigger amount of social trust and peace, no ethnic tensions. Thats why i think that nowadays multicultural illusion may lead to big problems.
How can you say that old comrade? Don't you remember the old songs we used to sing from East Germany to Turkmenistan and Siberia? "United forever, in friendship and labor..."?:D
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Good to know :)
Haha I also remember that old good soviet hit :D, although that Im just 22 and barely remember the best system in the world. :statisfie
The best system indeed, only that it was atheistic. And it was not meant to be a military system cause it can't compete in an arms race.

And the Russians should not have run the place. You know how Poland had to work to feed East Germany and give money to make East Germany look good? Well we had to take care of Mother Russia. The poor Ukrainians too, but they where foolish enough to rebel, did they regret it! We were smart enough to wait it out.:D
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Amadeus85
04-22-2008, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Fishermans_eye
The best system indeed, only that it was atheistic. And it was not meant to be a military system cause it can't compete in an arms race.

And the Russians should not have run the place. You know how Poland had to work to feed East Germany and give money to make East Germany look good? Well we had to take care of Mother Russia. The poor Ukrainians too, but they where foolish enough to rebel, did they regret it! We were smart enough to wait it out.:D
I dont like communism, that is also why I am suspicious to every anti-nationalistic ideologies. Thats just my opinion. :)
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I dont like communism, that is also why I am suspicious to every anti-nationalistic ideologies. Thats just my opinion. :)
The Soviet Union was very nationalistic, but to the union. It was like the United States. Texas was an independent country once. But they merged with America and the Souther US states rebelled once. One US state wants to be an independent country. (The others wont let them.)

Nationalism in it self is very anti religious. Cause people would rather fight for their country, than to not kill at all. To be "free", unaware that they are just as much a soul as the enemy and both will be judged the same when this trial called Earth is over.

Nationalism is wrong.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-22-2008, 06:13 PM
The only thing I see wrong with Nationalism is if you start to feel yourself superior to someone else. It doesn't hurt to love your country and your people, but it shouldnt get to the point where you say something like "Pakistanis are the best" or "America is the best" and so on. That's where I draw the line. Being born and growing up here in America, I'm not very attached but I wouldnt want harm on anyone here. So basically as long as u dont let the pride get to u, then I wouldnt think its too horrible. I dont like pride. The only thing I would take pride in is being a Muslim, thats about it. Oh and I'm not so fond of waving a flag. The only flag I'll ever wave is of 'La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur RasulAllah."

Peace
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
The only thing I see wrong with Nationalism is if you start to feel yourself superior to someone else. It doesn't hurt to love your country and your people, but it shouldnt get to the point where you say something like "Pakistanis are the best" or "America is the best" and so on. That's where I draw the line. Being born and growing up here in America, I'm not very attached but I wouldnt want harm on anyone here. So basically as long as u dont let the pride get to u, then I wouldnt think its too horrible. I dont like pride. The only thing I would take pride in is being a Muslim, thats about it. Oh and I'm not so fond of waving a flag. The only flag I'll ever wave is of 'La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur RasulAllah."

Peace
But you have the Ummah one world nation under Islam flag as an avatar!:D
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-22-2008, 06:22 PM
So? Like I said, thats the only thing I'd ever take pride in cuz that comes before anything. Everything we do should be for Allah, so taking pride in our Deen and being a Muslim isnt nationalism. Islam is not a geographical piece of land brother. If you can understand what it means to be a Muslim, you wouldn't ever have the thinking that your better than anyone. So Alhamdulillah that I'm a Muslim.

The only thing I would take pride in is being a Muslim, thats about it. Oh and I'm not so fond of waving a flag. The only flag I'll ever wave is of "La Ilaha Illallah Muhammadur RasulAllah."
:sl:
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
So? Like I said, thats the only thing I'd ever take pride in cuz that comes before anything. Everything we do should be for Allah, so taking pride in our Deen and being a Muslim isnt nationalism. Islam is not a geographical piece of land brother. If you can understand what it means to be a Muslim, you wouldn't ever have the thinking that your better than anyone. So Alhamdulillah that I'm a Muslim.

:sl:
I better learn Arabic! I speak a lot of different languages but not the only one that really matters.
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S_87
04-22-2008, 09:20 PM
can i just point out there is a difference between nationalism (where you think youre better than others, the pride etc) and liking your home country and its people.
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chacha_jalebi
04-22-2008, 09:21 PM
is it me or has this thread gone off topic!

NO IT CANT BE ME:D the thread has gone off topic

and yes no pictures allowed in avatar

keep the thread on track or else you know what will happen you innocent dafodils:p
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Pk_#2
04-22-2008, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by amani
meaning :?
Check ma location...

Now we are officially *on topic*
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Fishermans_eye
04-22-2008, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Happy
Check ma location...

Now we are officially *on topic*
That post took it back of topic again! :D
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