Killing of First Born In Moses' Egypt:What's the problem???

[AntiKarateKid]

I dont get it. Allah controls life and death so why do people say, " Oh God is evil, he killed those babies." Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgement and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

/rant


Anyways, waht are your opinions of this? I think the controversy stems from a lack of trust in Allah by some people.

[islamirama]

If you watch the Moses film made by westerners. In it, the farown ordered the death of Moses's older child and in return God punished them by killing the eldest child of each one of them and to show His power over farown's.

not sure what the islamic version is....

[Umar001]

Well this is the problem of viewing thing from a different prespective. Let me give you an example, if you ask someone if you can poke them with a needle they will say no, if someone from the jungle goes to a Doctor's practice and observes the doctor puncturing the skin of an innocent baby with a needle this jungle individual may, most likely, be disgusted, specially when the child cries. This is because the individual from the jungle does not understand the reasoning behind the doctor's actions, he has a different prespective of the action than those who understand the point of sticking a needle in a child. That's one thing.


Another thing is that killing is usually associated with a scenario. You see, words are sounds which have a meaning. They are a symbol. Killing, in humanity, is normally done out of selfish reasons. I say normally, meaning normal killing we hear of most, on the streets and so forth. So when we hear God killed we, I think, subcontiously associate this word/symbol (i.e. killing) in a way we would associate killing with a selfish reason. Many have to be asked 'What if God had a good reason to end someone's life' before they put such a possibility into the equasion.

And Allah knows best.

[glo]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

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[- Qatada -]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

This might be useful;

http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...run-aaron.html

[Al-Zaara]

Out of interest, how similar is the Islamic view of Moses and the Exodus from Egypt to the Biblical account?

The Story of Moses,based on Ibn Katheer

EXODUS FROM EGYPT and THE DROWNING OF PHARAOH IN THE SEA

[glo]

The Story of Moses,based on Ibn Katheer

EXODUS FROM EGYPT and THE DROWNING OF PHARAOH IN THE SEA

Thank you, Al-Zaara and Qatada.
There are clearly many similarities ... but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born ...

[Al-Zaara]

Thank you, Al-Zaara and Qatada.
There are clearly many similarities ... but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born ...

Ah, are you referring to islamirama's post where he speaks of that Western-movie of the Moses story, where the Pharaoh's first-born was killed after Moses's first-born was killed? Or are you asking if it is also in Islam said, that the Pharaoh's first-born was killed, or.. ? I'm a bit confused what you are asking for.

[barney]

The "problem" is only one voiced by non-theists of the judean-christian religion.

It stems from our beleif that killing without a very good reason, (self defence- combatants in war etc) is an evil act.
God diddnt warn Pharoh that he was going to do any of the plagues or the passover. He simply sent moses to ask him to free the Israelites, and in response to the negative response a plague was sent.
"Let my people go"
"No"
Plague 1
"let my people go"
"No"
Plague 2, etc...etc..

The veiw is , a kind just merciful loving God, would not under any circumstances butcher tens of thousands of totally innocent babies.

As always I like to delve behind the scripture with hypothesis. This is mine for passover.
The jews painted crosses on the doors of their houses so that the Jewish death squads that roamed the city that night knew which houses not to break into and slaughter the inhabitants.
An angel of god wouldnt need the marks on the doors to know which houses to hit. A Jewish death militia would.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I don't think the killing of the first born thing is an Islamic concept...

[glo]

Ah, are you referring to islamirama's post where he speaks of that Western-movie of the Moses story, where the Pharaoh's first-born was killed after Moses's first-born was killed? Or are you asking if it is also in Islam said, that the Pharaoh's first-born was killed, or.. ?

I am referring to the OP by AntiKarateKid, which seems to give the impression that the Qu'ran refers to the killing of the first born under Pharao. (Also see thread title):

Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgement and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

In the links given by yourself and Qatada I found references to many of the plagues, but didn't seem to find anything on the killing of the first born ... so I am still wondering whether it is mentioned in the Qu'ran at all.

So far the evidence seems to point to Malaikah being right:

:sl:

I don't think the killing of the first born thing is an Islamic concept...

[glo]

Barney, according to the Bible Pharao had been given very clear warning of God's punishment, and several times so ...

Here is just an example:

"Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me." If you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them back, the hand of the LORD will bring a terrible plague on your livestock in the field—on your horses and donkeys and camels and on your cattle and sheep and goats.

The account of Pharao refusing to let the Israelites go, is an example of people persistently turning from God and refusing to listen and obey. The expression of 'heardening one's heart' is used often in this story, and describes it well.

[Al-Zaara]

I am referring to the OP by AntiKarateKid, which seems to give the impression that the Qu'ran refers to the killing of the first born under Pharao. (Also see thread title):


In the links given by yourself and Qatada I found references to many of the plagues, but didn't seem to find anything on the killing of the first born ... so I am still wondering whether it is mentioned in the Qu'ran at all.

So far the evidence seems to point to Malaikah being right:

Aha, OK. I think I have misunderstood something, for how I have understood this is that the Christian and Jewish view is that all the male-babies got killed, no matter if they were the first-born ones? For it is not mentioned in the Qur'an or Sunnah about first-born.


Remember when We rescued you from the people of Pharaoh. They were inflicting an evil punishment on you-slaughtering your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial for you from your Lord. (Qur'an, 2: 49)

Remember when We rescued you from Pharaoh's people who were inflicting an evil punishment on you, killing your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial from your Lord. (Qur'an, 7: 141)

[barney]

Barney, according to the Bible Pharao had been given very clear warning of God's punishment, and several times so ...

Here is just an example:


The account of Pharao refusing to let the Israelites go, is an example of people persistently turning from God and refusing to listen and obey. The expression of 'heardening one's heart' is used often in this story, and describes it well.

Exodus 5
Bricks Without Straw
1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the desert.' "
2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."

4 But the king of Egypt said, "Moses and Aaron, why are you taking the people away from their labor? Get back to your work!" 5 Then Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are now numerous, and you are stopping them from working."

6 That same day Pharaoh gave this order to the slave drivers and foremen in charge of the people: 7 "You are no longer to supply the people with straw for making bricks; let them go and gather their own straw. 8 But require them to make the same number of bricks as before; don't reduce the quota. They are lazy; that is why they are crying out, 'Let us go and sacrifice to our God.' 9 Make the work harder for the men so that they keep working and pay no attention to lies."

10 Then the slave drivers and the foremen went out and said to the people, "This is what Pharaoh says: 'I will not give you any more straw. 11 Go and get your own straw wherever you can find it, but your work will not be reduced at all.' " 12 So the people scattered all over Egypt to gather stubble to use for straw. 13 The slave drivers kept pressing them, saying, "Complete the work required of you for each day, just as when you had straw." 14 The Israelite foremen appointed by Pharaoh's slave drivers were beaten and were asked, "Why didn't you meet your quota of bricks yesterday or today, as before?"

15 Then the Israelite foremen went and appealed to Pharaoh: "Why have you treated your servants this way? 16 Your servants are given no straw, yet we are told, 'Make bricks!' Your servants are being beaten, but the fault is with your own people."

17 Pharaoh said, "Lazy, that's what you are—lazy! That is why you keep saying, 'Let us go and sacrifice to the LORD.' 18 Now get to work. You will not be given any straw, yet you must produce your full quota of bricks."

19 The Israelite foremen realized they were in trouble when they were told, "You are not to reduce the number of bricks required of you for each day." 20 When they left Pharaoh, they found Moses and Aaron waiting to meet them, 21 and they said, "May the LORD look upon you and judge you! You have made us a stench to Pharaoh and his officials and have put a sword in their hand to kill us."

God Promises Deliverance
22 Moses returned to the LORD and said, "O Lord, why have you brought trouble upon this people? Is this why you sent me? 23 Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all."

Exodus 7:2-3
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. 15 Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. 16 Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened. 17 This is what the LORD says: By this you will know that I am the LORD : With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. 18 The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.' "
19 The LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron, 'Take your staff and stretch out your hand over the waters of Egypt—over the streams and canals, over the ponds and all the reservoirs'-and they will turn to blood. Blood will be everywhere in Egypt, even in the wooden buckets and stone jars."

20 Moses and Aaron did just as the LORD had commanded. He raised his staff in the presence of Pharaoh and his officials and struck the water of the Nile, and all the water was changed into blood. 21 The fish in the Nile died, and the river smelled so bad that the Egyptians could not drink its water. Blood was everywhere in Egypt.

Sorry for the long post. As you can see, in the very first plauge, Moses hadnt said to pharoh, "Let my peeps go or I'll turn your rivers to blood". He just asked him to let them go, pharo refused, and moses promptly turned the rivers to blood. He had made a few snakes out of staffs by then, but hadnt threatened anything.
The Egyptian Gods had matched that trick with their own staff/snake combo and to give them their due as non-existant deitys, they went and trashed the remaining water supply by turning it into blood just to prove they were right up there with moses.
Hmm. Your nation is going to be short of water due to a Jewish prophet ruining the main supply, so your own preists trash the only other supplies in a game of one-upmanship.:?


Last quick point. Why was God hardening Pharohs heart? Gid he want to end up butchering Egypt? If he hadnt "hardened his heart", Pharoh would have prolly let them go after two or three plaugues. But instead, God deliberatly makes pharoh stupidly insanely ridiculously stubbon in the face of obvious divine power, culminating in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents.
Not to mention the remaining weeks and months of serfdom for his beloved chosen people.

Reread the first part of exodus Glo. I cant find anything that links in with a threat of plague.

[Malaikah]

Remember when We rescued you from the people of Pharaoh. They were inflicting an evil punishment on you-slaughtering your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial for you from your Lord. (Qur'an, 2: 49)

Remember when We rescued you from Pharaoh's people who were inflicting an evil punishment on you, killing your sons and letting your women live. In that there was a tremendous trial from your Lord. (Qur'an, 7: 141)

:sl:

Sis I think you might be a little confused. The verses you mentioned refer to the Pharaoh killing the Hewbrew male babies, back when Moses was still a baby himself.

this thread is about the Christian belief that one of the punishments sent on the Pharaoh (when Moses is a prophet) was that God killed all the first borns of the Egyptians.

You with me? Or have I misunderstood you?

[YusufNoor]

I dont get it. Allah controls life and death so why do people say, " Oh God is evil, he killed those babies." Moses had sent the Egyptian sign after sign after sign, after he had warned them again and agian. The families who refused all of this till the end got the reward they deserved. As for the children, Allah knows when to take life and when to give life. In His grand scheme of things, those people were meant to die then, and Allah knows best. As for their deaths, they were signs to the rest of humanity and warnings to be heeded.

so, i'm hoping that you don't have a problem here...

Just because some people don't trust Allah's judgment and say nonsense like, he killed babies, desn't mean a thing. Yes those children did die, who was the one who allowed them to? The person who game them existence in the first place and chose to end their existence on THIS world at that time.

that's right, and there is NOTHING to preclude Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala, giving them all the best of the hereafter.

/rant


Anyways, waht are your opinions of this? I think the controversy stems from a lack of trust in Allah by some people.

:sl: &

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

are you trying to understand the exodus, or people not understanding the exodus?

but I cannot find a reference to the killing of the first-born

you mean the killing of the Egyptians 1st born, the last "plague" of Exodus, i haven't seen it in any Muslim histories.

The veiw is , a kind just merciful loving God, would not under any circumstances butcher tens of thousands of totally innocent babies.

i reckon most folks would see it that way...

As always I like to delve behind the scripture with hypothesis. This is mine for passover.
The jews painted crosses on the doors of their houses so that the Jewish death squads that roamed the city that night knew which houses not to break into and slaughter the inhabitants.

the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt, i doubt that the "Mossad" was that developed yet! :)

An angel of god wouldnt need the marks on the doors to know which houses to hit. A Jewish death militia would.

of course an Angel of God wouldn't need the sign. the painting of the doors was a command for the Hebrews. they were being trained to obey God. the Torah tells they didn't really get the idea in the end...

Last quick point. Why was God hardening Pharohs heart?

Firaun had publicly declared himself to God and it was the official position of the Egyptian government, part of the state religion

Gid he want to end up butchering Egypt?

polytheism and shirk are punishable crimes

If he hadnt "hardened his heart", Pharoh would have prolly let them go after two or three plaugues.

ah, but Firaun, much like today's non-believers, thought that he was better, stronger AND more powerful than God

But instead, God deliberatly makes pharoh stupidly insanely ridiculously stubbon in the face of obvious divine power, culminating in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

God can ONLY make Firaun this stubborn IF A) He exists in the 1st place and B) He really is Omnipotent! how do you blame the God that you think doesn't exist for anything???? :?

Not to mention the remaining weeks and months of serfdom for his beloved chosen people.

makes perfect sense...

:w:

[Gator]

To the OP, it does not seem like justice in my heart. Deep down there is something very wrong with God's actions in this case (Again we're assuming God exists and all this happened.). I agree with most of the points, Barney raised as well (the Jewish hit squad hypothesis is a little out there, but I'll give you your props for originality).

So what about the Egyptian's who didn't hear about this or were not involved. Is it fair that their kids get killed? Don't the babies get a chance to redeem themselves and turn to God (since they have freewill this could always happen, but God cuts them down early)?

And this god knows best thing just doesn't fly. I don't go around defending serial killers saying, "Hey, they might know something about these people we don't so let's let them go!". Not gonna work in court.

If there is a god, her actions have to make sense to me and in a plethora of situations they do not.

Also, I find theists are very group oriented in there punishments where as I'm more individual. Examples are one Egyptian is at fault so ALL Egyptians must suffer, a few Jew's caused Jesus to be killed so they ALL must bear the guilt, Saul wronged the Gibeonites so his sons have to die for it, etc. I believe a supreme being would be able to customize a punishment rather than a one size fits all type of nuclear bomb approach (i.e. the Flood and killing first borns).

I guess that's why I have the negative reation to these stories that I have.

Thanks.

[Al-Zaara]

:sl:

Sis I think you might be a little confused. The verses you mentioned refer to the Pharaoh killing the Hewbrew male babies, back when Moses was still a baby himself.

this thread is about the Christian belief that one of the punishments sent on the Pharaoh (when Moses is a prophet) was that God killed all the first borns of the Egyptians.

You with me? Or have I misunderstood you?

Aleykum selam,

Oh that one!!! Yes, now it's cleared, jazakiAllah kheyr Malaikah!

Sorry for posting nonsense people, I'll shut up now. :thumbs_up

[barney]

To the OP, it does not seem like justice in my heart. Deep down there is something very wrong with God's actions in this case (Again we're assuming God exists and all this happened.). I agree with most of the points, Barney raised as well (the Jewish hit squad hypothesis is a little out there, but I'll give you your props for originality).

So what about the Egyptian's who didn't hear about this or were not involved. Is it fair that their kids get killed? Don't the babies get a chance to redeem themselves and turn to God (since they have freewill this could always happen, but God cuts them down early)?

And this god knows best thing just doesn't fly. I don't go around defending serial killers saying, "Hey, they might know something about these people we don't so let's let them go!". Not gonna work in court.

If there is a god, her actions have to make sense to me and in a plethora of situations they do not.

Also, I find theists are very group oriented in there punishments where as I'm more individual. Examples are one Egyptian is at fault so ALL Egyptians must suffer, a few Jew's caused Jesus to be killed so they ALL must bear the guilt, Saul wronged the Gibeonites so his sons have to die for it, etc. I believe a supreme being would be able to customize a punishment rather than a one size fits all type of nuclear bomb approach (i.e. the Flood and killing first borns).

I guess that's why I have the negative reation to these stories that I have.

Thanks.

Gator the "Hit Squad" hypothisis wasnt just a few Jewish terrorists. It's more like the Mahdi Army in Bagdad last year, but more organised and on a bigger scale. Like Krystalnacht in the 1930's Nazi Germany.
I dont think evry firstborn Egyptian was killed....think about it, that would destroy the population for years to come, and I'm not aware of the Egyptians even mentioning it which seems unbeleivable, unless the records were destroyed in the Libary of Alexandria.

I think over several days a Mhadi Army style force of several hundred or a couple of Thousand carried out daily slaughter and turned Egypts cities into no-go areas, where Egyptians were massacred in their own homes. Perhaps sevaral thousand died.
It's the only logical explaination why the jews would paint their doors with a bloody mark. What Angel of Death is going to flap over a house going, "Oops, nearly diddnt see that house down there was jewish....my bad". An Angel of Death knows the names ages and DNA structure of all occupants of all houses in the world. Whats with a mark on the door?

[Pygoscelis]

This is sick.

How can anybody try to justify such attrocities as killing all the first born of a whole nation?

And according to the bible story, the jewish monster god "hardened the pharoah's heart", he ARRANGED it so the pharoah wouldn't set the israelis free.

[AntiKarateKid]

This is sick.

How can anybody try to justify such attrocities as killing all the first born of a whole nation?

And according to the bible story, the jewish monster god "hardened the pharoah's heart", he ARRANGED it so the pharoah wouldn't set the israelis free.

You sound really ridiculous when you say " this is sick". Death is merely the parting of the soul from the body. Sooner or later, everyone will die and it is up to Allah to choose when and how we die, he knows best.

I can understand why you would think it is sick. Being an atheist like yourself, death is the end of everything, and people blink out of existence right? Nothing more than shadows and dust?

Anyways, I have found my answers. I will say this though, do not think that you could suppose that your "justice" is greater than Allah's. Perhaps the corrupters of the old testament made out Allah to be vicious, who knows what they changed. The fact is Allah knows best and not us.

[AntiKarateKid]

Gator the "Hit Squad" hypothisis wasnt just a few Jewish terrorists. It's more like the Mahdi Army in Bagdad last year, but more organised and on a bigger scale. Like Krystalnacht in the 1930's Nazi Germany.
I dont think evry firstborn Egyptian was killed....think about it, that would destroy the population for years to come, and I'm not aware of the Egyptians even mentioning it which seems unbeleivable, unless the records were destroyed in the Libary of Alexandria.

I think over several days a Mhadi Army style force of several hundred or a couple of Thousand carried out daily slaughter and turned Egypts cities into no-go areas, where Egyptians were massacred in their own homes. Perhaps sevaral thousand died.
It's the only logical explaination why the jews would paint their doors with a bloody mark. What Angel of Death is going to flap over a house going, "Oops, nearly diddnt see that house down there was jewish....my bad". An Angel of Death knows the names ages and DNA structure of all occupants of all houses in the world. Whats with a mark on the door?

Symbolic I presume, a clear reminder to the other people.

[Fishman]

:sl:
According to the Bible, the pharaoh killed all the Israelite first-born before. It's poetic justice.
:w:

[AvarAllahNoor]

I can't fathom the Bible or the Quran, I just respect it as my Scriptures tell me to. Allah knows best.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

God hardened the hearts of Pharaoh with good old greed and power. If Pharaoh let the Jews go he would lose all this virtually free slave labour.

God asked the Jews to mark their front doors so their first born would not be killed. This was for the Jews benefit and not God’s, they were obeying God and doing something. Jews today still leave a note of God’s commands in their front door and gate.

I do not think that a subdued nation of Jewish slaves would have the might to strike down the first born of the Egyptians.

As to God killing all the first born, he can still put this right in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and merciful God,

Eric

[AntiKarateKid]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

God hardened the hearts of Pharaoh with good old greed and power. If Pharaoh let the Jews go he would lose all this virtually free slave labour.

God asked the Jews to mark their front doors so their first born would not be killed. This was for the Jews benefit and not God’s, they were obeying God and doing something. Jews today still leave a note of God’s commands in their front door and gate.

I do not think that a subdued nation of Jewish slaves would have the might to strike down the first born of the Egyptians.

As to God killing all the first born, he can still put this right in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and merciful God,

Eric

Therein lay their misdirected problems. They say why couldn't Allah soften his heart instead? I believe that the Pharoh's heart was already hardened and fell out of favor ( for obvious reasons ) from Allah and so was doomed. Allah guides whom he will and misguided whom he will. He placed us with tasks to do in this world and when we abuse our free will and turn away from him Allah punishes us. You sin enough and you may pass by the point of no reutrn.

[Umar001]

Maybe the view stems from the presupposition that this life is all we have?

[Pygoscelis]

That you people can look favourably upon horrible acts of this God that are on par with genocide makes me wonder if there is ANYTHING this God could do or say that you could find distasteful. Is there no attrocity you could not smile upon by declaring it God's will?
.

[aamirsaab]

That you people can look favourably upon horrible acts of this God that are on par with genocide makes me wonder if there is ANYTHING this God could do or say that you could find distasteful. Is there no attrocity you could not smile upon by declaring it God's will?
.

It's all perception, mate. You are used to human form of justice - this is completely different to God's form of justice. And since justice relies on perception, God's justice will always trump the human form of justice. However, I can understand why one would vehimently disagree with God's justice system but if one has the faith (not the same as blind faith) it is easy to agree with it.

[Pygoscelis]

I'll take that as a no? There is no attrocity you'd not find acceptable if you believed it to be God's will?

[tetsujin]

I'll take that as a no? There is no attrocity you'd not find acceptable if you believed it to be God's will?

Depends on one's views as to what it means to be a Muslim.

If it's your own child, it's a test. If it's your neighbor's child, it's a warning/sign. If it's your enemy's child, it's justice.

Allah can only be praised, even when prayers aren't answered.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

Depends on one's views as to what it means to be a Muslim.

If it's your own child, it's a test. If it's your neighbor's child, it's a warning/sign. If it's your enemy's child, it's justice.

Allah can only be praised, even when prayers aren't answered

You might think this is how Muslims should be, but have you read the signature at the bottom of aamirsaab’s posts?

Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)

''If you only have love for your own race. You only leave space to discriminate. When you discriminate, it only generates hate. And when ya hate, ya bound to get irate''

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith friendship.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

I'll take that as a no? There is no attrocity you'd not find acceptable if you believed it to be God's will?

God is fair and just to all people, we are not fair and just to each other. God’s justice favours the poor and oppressed, man’s justice seems to favour the strong and the rich.
Although I cannot know how God works; I trust fully that he is fair and just to all people. He has the power to put all things right in a greater good life after death.

In the spirit of praying to a just and loving God.

Eric

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Eric H pretty much said it all. I do recall a thread pygoscelis made a few months back, in which we spoke about trusting in God (I used a parent analogy to explain the relationship between myself and God) but the thread got deleted when the forum crashed.

I'll reiterate the point I made in that thread: to me, God is like a parental figure - no matter what action He performs it is always just and correct (He's doing things that are for the betterment of His creations), though we do not always see it that way (e.g the events of sodom and Ghamora, the punishments towards the people of Egypt during the time of moses etc). It does take time to put your faith and trust into God - when you finally have that trust though, it is much easier to understand His actions.

[AntiKarateKid]

I'll take that as a no? There is no attrocity you'd not find acceptable if you believed it to be God's will?

Man you're so stubborn ( I am too but meh). Atrocity this, atrocity that. God takes the lives of people everyday through natural death, why is THAT not an atrocity? God takes the lives of people back to him in others ways and then suddenly THAT is an atrocity. Very narrow minded if u ask me. God's justice>your justice, your job is to focus on what Allah gave you and leave the runnings of life and death to him. Unless, of course u think u can do it better, but that would be preeeetty arrogant huh?

[Pygoscelis]

I think this provides us with a glimpse into the mind of the suicide bomber, crusader, and witch burner. I find the notion that any horrible act is turned good by believing it to be God's will, to be a very dangerous mindset. Just sayin.

[glo]

:sl:
Eric H pretty much said it all. I do recall a thread pygoscelis made a few months back, in which we spoke about trusting in God (I used a parent analogy to explain the relationship between myself and God) but the thread got deleted when the forum crashed.

I'll reiterate the point I made in that thread: to me, God is like a parental figure - no matter what action He performs it is always just and correct (He's doing things that are for the betterment of His creations), though we do not always see it that way (e.g the events of sodom and Ghamora, the punishments towards the people of Egypt during the time of moses etc). It does take time to put your faith and trust into God - when you finally have that trust though, it is much easier to understand His actions.

As a Christian I agree with your statement, aamirsaab.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is the first time I hear a Muslim compare his relationship with God to a parent-child relationship.

I have heard Muslims refer to Allah as a much more distant God, one which one would hardly dare to have a personal relationship with, let alone look upon as a parental figure ... I always assumed that was the general view of God in Islam.
Your words are making me wonder now ...

Salaam :)

[AntiKarateKid]

I think this provides us with a glimpse into the mind of the suicide bomber, crusader, and witch burner. I find the notion that any horrible act is turned good by believing it to be God's will, to be a very dangerous mindset. Just sayin.

Again, those suicide bombers, crusaders etc acts are disproven and unsupported by the very books they claim to follow. Following a book truthfully and following a book falsely are two different things so your point FAILS. If you following the true religion by the rules, you're acts cannot be wrong.

[AntiKarateKid]

As a Christian I agree with your statement, aamirsaab.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is the first time I hear a Muslim compare his relationship with God to a parent-child relationship.

I have heard Muslims refer to Allah as a much more distant God, one which one would hardly dare to have a personal relationship with, let alone look upon as a parental figure ... I always assumed that was the general view of God in Islam.
Your words are making me wonder now ...

Salaam :)

Honestly there is nothing to wonder about. Allah can be compared to a parental figure in some ways but by no means in the ways which imply that we are his sons/daughters. Allah cares for his crations, whether they are birds, trees, humans, zebras...uh hedgehogs etc. I think he is simply pointing to the positive relationship that exists between the two beings. In no way is Allah a distant God jsut because we don't say taht we are his sons/daughter doesnt mean we dont have a personal relationship with him.

[Pygoscelis]

Again, those suicide bombers, crusaders etc acts are disproven and unsupported by the very books they claim to follow. Following a book truthfully and following a book falsely are two different things so your point FAILS. If you following the true religion by the rules, you're acts cannot be wrong.

But nobody thinks they are wrong. It doesn't matter if they are following the god or even if the God exists, so long as they THINK they are following the god, this mentality leads to such horrible things.

[AntiKarateKid]

But nobody thinks they are wrong. It doesn't matter if they are following the god or even if the God exists, so long as they THINK they are following the god, this mentality leads to such horrible things.

What exactly do u mean nobody thinks they are wrong, I have just told you the opinion of virtually all Muslims that the suicide bombings are wrong and AGAINST the teachings. Now you are shifting the blame from religion to the individual person. People will always do violence whether they justify it by love, religion, greed, anger whatever. What it comes down to is if they are right. If a person is a true Muslim, they would not commit such acts. I can't say the same thing for other people. WHen you follow Allahs (SWT) law with all all your mind, body and soul you cannot go wrong because you are following Allah.


You seem to have a very fatalistic view of religion which is not at all befitting it. WHen properly followed it is the gateway to happiness and truth. And when improperly followed, like all things, trouble arises. Look at the Prophet ( pbuh) and could you still say that people would be bad if they followed him?

[aamirsaab]

:sl: and hello

As a Christian I agree with your statement, aamirsaab.
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is the first time I hear a Muslim compare his relationship with God to a parent-child relationship.

Thanks :D. I guess it comes from my own experience. As a child (I was about 9 or 10 If I remember correctly) I did face the loss of a cherished aunty and it could easily have turned me into a rebellious brat (especially given that I blamed myself for it for a very long time). However, religion was there beside me (all the way) warning me from that path and fortunately I didn't take it. Events like that and even failing exams (and various other life events) have all helped me to build a relationship with God as a parental figure: the one figure that no matter what what you do or what happens, He is always there to turn too. There isn't really an equivalent but the closest thing would be a priest, imaam or rabbi etc; someone who's doors are always open for you.

I think this provides us with a glimpse into the mind of the suicide bomber, crusader, and witch burner. I find the notion that any horrible act is turned good by believing it to be God's will, to be a very dangerous mindset. Just sayin.

I do understand your points but I believe you require a little more knowledge on Islam: With the belief that God is just, we as muslims also understand that God will punish those (either in this life or the hereafter) - so these mass murderes, rapists, suicide bombers and the like will all be dealt with eventually - why God has allowed them to commit these attrocities is not known to me (maybe it is a test to mankind, maybe it is God allowing those individiduals to express their free will). What I do know is that I believe in God's justice and that He will sort those people out. As said before, it requires an element of trust in God (which for me was gained a long time ago over a period of years).

[Umar001]

Depends on one's views as to what it means to be a Muslim.

If it's your own child, it's a test. If it's your neighbor's child, it's a warning/sign. If it's your enemy's child, it's justice.

Erm, if that was the case wouldn't Muslims be sought to kill enemies children at times of war?

[tetsujin]

Erm, if that was the case wouldn't Muslims be sought to kill enemies children at times of war?

That's out of context, but it has also been demonstrated.

In war, there are two kinds of casualties. There are those who are actively participating in war, and then there's collateral damage.


Assuming you have an absolutely perfect weapon at your disposal. Let's say you develop a technology that stops the heart of any one person on the planet simply by entering their date of birth, gender, name, height, weight, or anything that was unique yet readily accessible etc... Do you think, for example, in the quest for eradicating terrorism, the military of the United states would waste it's time and money on the innocent people of Iraq or Afghanistan, or only those that fought for oppression and their terrorist ideologies?

Yes? Then we have another debate on our hands.

If you answered no, then you agree that there are at times casualties that are unwanted. Typically called collateral damage, they are the unintended victims due to human or technological error.

So my question to you is, "Why kill the children of your enemy?" If you had the chance, would you do it?


Arguably, god has the best weapons available, and god chose to kill the children. If you can answer that for me, without resorting to "We don't know the mind of god?", how are you going to rationalize that it was a just act.

If you're telling me that you don't know how god thinks, or why he does what he does, then don't say that it was justice. You're claiming more than you yourself can claim to know.

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

[AntiKarateKid]

That's out of context, but it has also been demonstrated.

In war, there are two kinds of casualties. There are those who are actively participating in war, and then there's collateral damage.


Assuming you have an absolutely perfect weapon at your disposal. Let's say you develop a technology that stops the heart of any one person on the planet simply by entering their date of birth, gender, name, height, weight, or anything that was unique yet readily accessible etc... Do you think, for example, in the quest for eradicating terrorism, the military of the United states would waste it's time and money on the innocent people of Iraq or Afghanistan, or only those that fought for oppression and their terrorist ideologies?

Yes? Then we have another debate on our hands.

If you answered no, then you agree that there are at times casualties that are unwanted. Typically called collateral damage, they are the unintended victims due to human or technological error.

So my question to you is, "Why kill the children of your enemy?" If you had the chance, would you do it?


Arguably, god has the best weapons available, and god chose to kill the children. If you can answer that for me, without resorting to "We don't know the mind of god?", how are you going to rationalize that it was a just act.

If you're telling me that you don't know how god thinks, or why he does what he does, then don't say that it was justice. You're claiming more than you yourself can claim to know.

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

This is going nowhere. Again, WHO is the one who causes death? WHether those children died at 1 or 100 is up to Allah and if he took them at X age, it is at his discretion and he knows best. Somehow you keep ignoring this basic point, u dont control life, Allah does. Just keep sticking your fingers in your ears and spewing nonsensical pseudo noble dribble like " you justify death of children!!!". You just dont trust Allah and that is the base of your problem.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Faysal;

Somehow, you're finding the death of guiltless children acceptable.

Without God the children would not exist in the first place, there would be no universe, no life.

As AntiKarateKid said; If a child’s life on Earth exists for one hour, or the child lives to be a hundred years old, that has little meaning. Life after death with God is were we search for a true meaning.

Whilst we spend our time on Earth we should try and obey God, we should also care for each other. We have little control over our own lives or our families, sickness, accidents, death happens.

This is how we believe, and this in a way helps us to find peace. I think the problem arises when you mix up your own world view as an atheist were life stops with death; and there do not seem to be any meaningful answers to children dying.

In the spirit of searching for a loving God,

Eric

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^ I would pretty much say the same thing.

Peace

[tetsujin]

So all of those children were predestined for death at age X, if it happened to be in the early years, it's okay because it was god's will?

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

So all of those children were predestined for death at age X, if it happened to be in the early years, it's okay because it was god's will?

You talk about the death of a child as being predestined by God, logically the same God need not predestine that child to die. God could just as easily predestine everyone to live a healthy and jolly life up to a hundred.

This fits in with a world view I have heard from atheists that life is about getting the most out of it, enjoying it until they die.

I have noticed that you are critical of God, but have you really questioned your own perception about the death of a child today.

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for. You cannot blame God because God does not exist, you cannot find any comfort in life after death because it does not exist.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

Is there really no God?

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric

[tetsujin]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

You talk about the death of a child as being predestined by God, logically the same God need not predestine that child to die. God could just as easily predestine everyone to live a healthy and jolly life up to a hundred.

This fits in with a world view I have heard from atheists that life is about getting the most out of it, enjoying it until they die.

I have noticed that you are critical of God, but have you really questioned your own perception about the death of a child today.

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for. You cannot blame God because God does not exist, you cannot find any comfort in life after death because it does not exist.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

Is there really no God?

In the spirit of searching for a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Eric

I will speak for myself, and not any others.

If a child dies of a preventable disease, there is an attempt to find out why it was not prevented

If a child dies or a preventable war, there is an attempt to find out why there was no peace

If a child dies because of mistakes made by him/her, there is an attempt to educate others

In the words of Stephen Fry, (and I'm paraphrasing)

What possible reason do we have to be ashamed of our nakedness, or if we are naked that we should be ashamed of what we are and what we do? That we should apologize for our dreams, our impulses, our drives, and our desires...

The fault is in us and not in our stars and the glory is in us and not in our stars... We take credit for everything that is good about man and we take blame for everything that is dreadful about man... We do not grovel or apologize at the feet of a god nor are we so infantile as to project the idea that we once had a biological father and so we should have a divine one too.

If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice. The rest of us will take it upon ourselves to make our lives better.

I'm sorry if taking such responsibility is not comforting, but my purpose in life is not to feel better about things by consoling myself that I could do nothing more.

If you wish to know more, I would refer you to the works of Carl Sagan.

All the best wishes,


Faysal

[Umar001]

As I mentioned before, maybe the understanding of death is what aids different people to take different stances.

What's one of the worst things a person can have happen to them?

Athiest - may say death.

Christian/Muslim - may say to lose faith.

Death by some who hold religions is not always a punishment, it can also be a reward, or a means to gain a reward. Whereas with individuals who do not take God or religion into hand, this is not a part of death.

Yes, in general, we try our best to preserve human lives, but in some cases death is better than life, and in other cases when we do preserve a life, it may be that, in a different perspective from yours, the life the individual goes on to live is worse than if the individual had died.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

...If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice. The rest of us will take it upon ourselves to make our lives better.

I'm sorry if taking such responsibility is not comforting, but my purpose in life is not to feel better about things by consoling myself that I could do nothing more.

This is the mistake non religious folk make. Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

[Muezzin]

'He works His work in mysterious ways. Some people like it. Some people don't.'

That's from the Constantine movie. With Keanu Reeves.

A lot of people I dislike it for some reason (probably because they have good taste), but I like it (probably because I have no taste).

[Pygoscelis]

You just dont trust Allah and that is the base of your problem.

I agree with this statement.

And what you say does make some sense, given your belief in a perfect and perfectly benevolent higher being.

But I still say it is a VERY dangerous mentality, if your belief is mistaken (which those outside your particular sect of your particular religion believe, so they can see it). You can see the same if you examine another religion you find false and the believers of said religion doing horrible things in the name of their god, and then justifying it by declaring it the will of their god.

You can even see this within your own religion (or an offshoot of it) in those people (ie suicide bombers) who you dismiss as not following your faith. There is no reason to believe they are not following their version of the religion (no matter how twisted you may find it) and this same mentality enables them also not to question their actions which they believe to be blessed.

It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

[Pygoscelis]

I am sorry to turn this question back to you, but how would, or do you cope if your child died, or someone you loved and cared for.

By grieving. Something the religious may never learn to do, as they instead pretend the person has gone to heaven and nothing has been lost. You hear things like "He's in a better place now". This is avoidance. There is something valuable in learning to grieve and accept loss. There is a value in accepting life as it is rather than engaging in soothing fantasy.

How do you as an atheist cope with a seemingly senseless or needles death of a child today?

By actually seeing it as a senseless or needless death of a child today, doing whatever can be done to prevent the same happening again, and accepting that life isn't always fair. We're not all beautiful. We're not all brilliant. We're not all born rich. We're not all going to live a long painless life.

Is there really no God?

Not outside the minds of his believers.

[AntiKarateKid]

I agree with this statement.

And what you say does make some sense, given your belief in a perfect and perfectly benevolent higher being.

But I still say it is a VERY dangerous mentality, if your belief is mistaken (which those outside your particular sect of your particular religion believe, so they can see it). You can see the same if you examine another religion you find false and the believers of said religion doing horrible things in the name of their god, and then justifying it by declaring it the will of their god.

You can even see this within your own religion (or an offshoot of it) in those people (ie suicide bombers) who you dismiss as not following your faith. There is no reason to believe they are not following their version of the religion (no matter how twisted you may find it) and this same mentality enables them also not to question their actions which they believe to be blessed.

It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

Nothing wrong with that when it is the creator dishing out the rules. There is a clear line between Islam and the other religions of the world but seeing your responses on the Thor thread, you yourself have yet to find them ( for some incomprehensible reason). Finally, your trust is lacking and that is what makes you a disbeliever so further discussion between us would be pointless as we are arguing from two extreme. But the moral of this story is that you are under the illusion that death is the end and that is the problem.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

...It is the ultimate in authoritarianism. "Obey and trust the leader. Never question the leader. The leader is always good and just and right."

The difference with religion though, is that you first earn the leader's trust (i.e He proves to YOU). With authoritarianism, you place your trust blindly - question the leader and you're brown bread.

[tetsujin]

:sl:

This is the mistake non religious folk make. Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

[AntiKarateKid]

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

Again you fall into the same trap. I am finally seeing these patterns. In Islam we all have something called fitrah which is the inherent disposition towards virtue in humanity. Allah created us all with it. Religion is there to purify it and give it the true direction. And how is that? By leading them to the true God, their creator and the ultimate good. The answer to your misguided question is not a simple one but in the end it will probably ( and correct me if I am wrong brothers and sisters) a believer will seek Allah. That in itself is the most profound, beautiful and guiding action this through which all other truly good actions stem from. This is assuming that the believer is honestly seeking Allah and not content with false religions or atheistic vain talk ( cough foxhole cough).

[aamirsaab]

Very well then...

"Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer." ~ Christopher Hitchens

I don't understand how this relates to what I said nor do I understand the point you are making since I didn't claim anything along the lines of only religious people can behave ethically, which I do believe you thought I did hence your quote.

I'll reiterate and highlight the important bit cus I think you misread my post:
...Being religious isn't just about praying to God - it's also about actually doing stuff (hence charity being a core pillar of Islam!). Think of prayer as an addition - not a replacement.

To answer your quote: I cannot name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Note: The main purpose of religion is to help mankind (and society as a whole) LIVE, which is 100% true as far as Islam goes, evidence is shown in the fact that anything that is harmful to the human in Islam is regarded as haram [heh haram and harm...they sound the same don't they] aka unlawful. Examples range from narrow and broader connotations of this, including: abortion, euthanasia, adultery/zina, theft etc etc.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

There wasnt such as thing as atheism even with the first man on earth! So what makes u think this isn't something learned by someone who becomes atheist?

Ok since we r talking about any religious person, they all do acts of good. But I have yet to see any other religion preaching to break that barriers of race! Do you? From a scriptural point of view, do u know of any besides Islam? Do you know of any other religion that gave women the right to property, inheritance, money, right to give her voice on issues and seek knowledge other than Islam?

[Pygoscelis]

Nothing wrong with that when it is the creator dishing out the rules.

If said creator is perfectly good and benevolent, then that would be so, yes. As you correctly pointed out above, this is the fundamental conflict in our outlooks.

There is a clear line between Islam and the other religions of the world but seeing your responses on the Thor thread, you yourself have yet to find them ( for some incomprehensible reason).

As does every other person who is not muslim. That you believe you have "found" them is what makes you a muslim.

Finally, your trust is lacking and that is what makes you a disbeliever

My disbelief is what makes me a disbeliever. Trust is not an issue, as you can't trust or distrust something that doesn't exist. I can contemplate a person however who may actually believe yet distrust. Is there an offshoot of islam like that?

[Pygoscelis]

There wasnt such as thing as atheism even with the first man on earth! So what makes u think this isn't something learned by someone who becomes atheist?

I'm not clear on what you are trying to say here.

But atheism has existed as long as belief in gods has existed, and in fact existed long before then but simply wasn't recognized. Atheism is a lack of belief in Gods. Before there was belief in Gods everybody was an atheist but didn't know it.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^Not really. People of the past, believed in a being of some sort, regardless of how many and in what sense. And atheism in itself is still a belief.

[Pygoscelis]

And atheism in itself is still a belief.

as much as bald is a hair colour.

[AntiKarateKid]

Your analogy is flawed. Color would be a variation of a trait of hair. Assuming hair signifies religion and baldness lack of it which equates with disbelief, are u saying you dont believe in different religions ( hair colors)? Baldness is the lack of hair which is also a style. Atheism is also a belief like religion. To deny that atheism is also a faith ( a faith that no God exists) is folly.

[tetsujin]

Your analogy is flawed. Color would be a variation of a trait of hair. Assuming hair signifies religion and baldness lack of it which equates with disbelief, are u saying you dont believe in different religions ( hair colors)? Baldness is the lack of hair which is also a style. Atheism is also a belief like religion. To deny that atheism is also a faith ( a faith that no God exists) is folly.

I must refer you to the nearest Encyclopedia Britannica. Atheism is not a belief system. It is specifically the rejection of religion and it's theological dogma. Whether that religion includes a faith in god such as YHWH, Jesus or Allah, or whether it is transcendent such as Hinduism or Buddhism, it does not matter. Characterization of atheism as a disbelief in the existence of god or gods is inadequate.

It is also not faith based, as per any definition of faith that I have come across. Typically referring to any belief not based on proof, logic, or evidence. One cannot say that atheism is a faith because as an atheist you would believe in the non-existence of gods even if you had no proof for their non-existence.

You cannot disprove the existence of god any more than you can prove the existence of god, however that is not what atheism rests upon. If you wish to boil it down, it is the antithesis of religious dogmatism and any supernatural beliefs they include.

I apologize to certain sects of the eastern religions as I know some of them do not have dogmatic beliefs per se, but it served as in illustration.


All the best wishes,


Faysal

[tetsujin]

To answer your quote: I cannot name an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer.

Note: The main purpose of religion is to help mankind (and society as a whole) LIVE, which is 100% true as far as Islam goes, evidence is shown in the fact that anything that is harmful to the human in Islam is regarded as haram [heh haram and harm...they sound the same don't they] aka unlawful. Examples range from narrow and broader connotations of this, including: abortion, euthanasia, adultery/zina, theft etc etc.

Sorry, I was pressed for time so I didn't clarify why I quoted that but.....

If you do not have to be religious to act morally or ethically, or to help humanity, or live a peaceful life, why do you need religion?

To be frank, I can understand theft, but how are abortions more harmful than miscarriages (which are more frequent), what's the problem with euthanasia (as according to religious people you are only easing their pain and the person will probably go to heaven/hell as god sees fit), and why is adultery intrinsically harmful (unless by adultery you also meant promiscuity)?

All the best wishes,


Faysal

[Pygoscelis]

Bald is not a hair colour because bald people have no hair. Atheism is not a type of faith or religion, because atheists have no faith or religion. The analogy is apt. Atheism is the null set, it is when one lacks god belief rather than having a particular kind of god belief. Atheism is the default set. It is what you are before you put your mind to the question and it is what you remain if you are not convinced by the religion salesmen.

I do often encounter what seems to be a strong need in theists to believe that atheists have "faith", and have a "religion" or system of beliefs or leaders. Some will further insist particular atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens speak for atheists at large - when really they only speak for themselves.

THERE IS NO ATHEIST CREED OR PROPHET OR HOLY BOOK. How many times do people have to point that out to theists before they get it through their heads? If a given atheist has an ideology it is due to that ideology, not due to atheism, just as its not due to their lack of belief in leprechauns. Is the lack of belief in leprechauns a worldview? Are there lack-of-belief-in leprechaun holy books or prophets or rituals? No. Same with atheism.

By the way, the reason why "atheist groups" so often flounder is because atheism defines what one is not rather than what one is, and so having little in common between atheists they don't organize well.

[AntiKarateKid]

Bald is not a hair colour because bald people have no hair. Atheism is not a type of faith or religion, because atheists have no faith or religion. The analogy is apt. Atheism is the null set, it is when one lacks god belief rather than having a particular kind of god belief. Atheism is the default set. It is what you are before you put your mind to the question and it is what you remain if you are not convinced by the religion salesmen.

I do often encounter what seems to be a strong need in theists to believe that atheists have "faith", and have a "religion" or system of beliefs or leaders. Some will further insist particular atheists like Dawkins or Hitchens speak for atheists at large - when really they only speak for themselves.

THERE IS NO ATHEIST CREED OR PROPHET OR HOLY BOOK. How many times do people have to point that out to theists before they get it through their heads? If a given atheist has an ideology it is due to that ideology, not due to atheism, just as its not due to their lack of belief in leprechauns. Is the lack of belief in leprechauns a world view? Are there lack-of-belief-in leprechaun holy books or prophets or rituals? No. Same with atheism.

By the way, the reason why "atheist groups" so often flounder is because atheism defines what one is not rather than what one is, and so having little in common between atheists they don't organize well.

Think about it this way. I have very short hair. I am lacking alot of hair. My uncle is bald in places but he instead keeps whats left and turns it into a different style. A bald man cuts off all of his hair to make it seem like he has none. The issue is not whether bald is a hair COLOR. Bald is a hair style. The color bit comes in to show what TYPE of hair ( faith if anyone needs a refreshment on metaphors). Therefore, atheism is a a lack of faith, in religion but faith in nothing. You belive there is no God, that is a faith. We both have differing views on the metaphysical.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Sorry, I was pressed for time so I didn't clarify why I quoted that but.....

If you do not have to be religious to act morally or ethically, or to help humanity, or live a peaceful life, why do you need religion?

Because religion teaches us to be moralistic and ethic (if we take the religious history with the first humans adam and eve whom were taught those codes from God - these moral codes and practices didn't originate from the minds of any mere mortal I can assure you!).

For me certainly it has shaped my own moral and ethic code - were it not for those teachings I'd quite possibly be the polar opposite of who I am today: homosexual, habitual smoker, leader of a racist gang with a girlfriend smoking whatever the hell kids smoke these days. But anyone who knows me well knows that I'm the exact opposite of that and it is because of religion.

Throughout all the teachings of Islam, human preservation keeps coming up (I'll explain in detail as to how this is in another thread). This coupled with my knowledge on psychology has only bolstered my belief that religion as a whole is actually better for mankind and that Islam is the true religion.

To be frank, I can understand theft, but how are abortions more harmful than miscarriages (which are more frequent), what's the problem with euthanasia (as according to religious people you are only easing their pain and the person will probably go to heaven/hell as god sees fit), and why is adultery intrinsically harmful (unless by adultery you also meant promiscuity)?

All the best wishes,


Faysal

I'll explain those points and the punishments in this thread as I'm writing a mini essay on the topic.

[Ninth_Scribe]

You know, this story sounds so much like the one about King Sargon. The story of his life starts with him being found as a baby by a gardener as he came floating in a basket down the river — a story older but similar to the one the Old Testament tells about Moses. King of ancient Mesopotamia, reigning probably from 2334 BCE to 2279. His byname was Sargon of Akkad, after the kingdom he formed.

When I read them both, I honestly don't know what to make of it. I know that Ezra rewrote the Torah and he also had access to the Library at Babylon, which would have held the first record. Since he was a son of Abraham, these were his family records, so it's not like he was stealing them, but it still mystifies me, why he wrote it the way he did. Or perhaps the event was duplicated by the parents of Moses? Maybe, since this story was well known at the time.

This is the one from the first story, King Sargon of Akkadia:

The Ninth Scribe

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you tetsujin;

If you find comfort in doing nothing but praying for better times, that is your choice.

Pray as if everything depends on God, work as if everything depends on your own efforts. If you pray in this way then you might understand the power of prayer, you cannot sit back and leave everything to God.

It is no good praying for the poor and leaving everything to God, that makes us hypocrites. As well as giving money and goods, many people in the churches are involved in projects raising money for good causes too. People give their time in the community voluntarily to help others, these things work better when we pray for other people and their needs.

I am involved in an initiative called Street Pastors, we go out voluntarily in pairs until late on a Friday night; trying to bring about a little peace in the community. We purposefully go to places were there are a good chance of finding gangs of youths drinking, doing drugs, being vandals and being a general nuisance. I am nearly sixty, my partner is a lady in her sixties who has trouble walking and she gets out of breath. She is a lady who just should not be doing something like this late on a Friday night.

We spend time in prayer before we go out, we have people back at the church praying for us while we are out. This gives us the comfort and courage to do a task that can seem daunting and frightening. I would not be able to do these things without prayer and knowing God is there.

In the spirit of praying to a loving and merciful God.

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

So you pray as it if depends on God but work as if it depends on you. That really isn't so different in what gets done than with the non-believer who only works as if it depends on them.

You do say that you would not have the courage to do these things without God, which in my mind turns God into Dumbo's magic feather. You lean on the feather (God) thinking it gives you power when indeed you have that power in yourself all along. (For anybody unfamiliar with the Dumbo story, its about an elephant who can fly seemingly because he has a magic feather, but loses the feather and discovers he could fly all along without it)

That being said, I'm glad you have such feather if it enables you to do good for the community. I just hope the feather doesn't happen to come bundled with anything less community friendly.

[Pygoscelis]

You know, this story sounds so much like the one about King Sargon. The story of his life starts with him being found as a baby by a gardener as he came floating in a basket down the river — a story older but similar to the one the Old Testament tells about Moses. King of ancient Mesopotamia, reigning probably from 2334 BCE to 2279. His byname was Sargon of Akkad, after the kingdom he formed.

When I read them both, I honestly don't know what to make of it. I know that Ezra rewrote the Torah and he also had access to the Library at Babylon, which would have held the first record. Since he was a son of Abraham, these were his family records, so it's not like he was stealing them, but it still mystifies me, why he wrote it the way he did. Or perhaps the event was duplicated by the parents of Moses? Maybe, since this story was well known at the time.

This is the one from the first story, King Sargon of Akkadia:

The Ninth Scribe

I am convinced that most of the biblical stories, especially those in the Old Testament or Torah are recycled from earlier stories from earlier cultures, be they the Epic of Gilgamesh, Osiris, Mithras, Amen-Ra, etc. There are too many similarities for it to be otherwise. I aknowledge that this doesn't completely invalidate them, as the original stories may have had some truth to them, but it does present a real challenge for biblical literalists.

[Ninth_Scribe]

I am convinced that most of the biblical stories, especially those in the Old Testament or Torah are recycled from earlier stories from earlier cultures, be they the Epic of Gilgamesh, Osiris, Mithras, Amen-Ra, etc. There are too many similarities for it to be otherwise. I aknowledge that this doesn't completely invalidate them, as the original stories may have had some truth to them, but it does present a real challenge for biblical literalists.

Well I know Ezra was the one who compiled them all, and I don't buy the argument that he "stole" them from the Babylonian libraries. I think Madam Blavatsky and others were harsh in that conclusion. I believe Ezra knew Abraham came from Babylon and, since they were descendants, considered the records to be their inheritence. I do know they botched some of the records - they made a mess out of calandar conversions. But this instance, with Sargon's records... he may have re-arranged the story soley for a learning curve. In other words, some of these stories have no historical value at all, apart from the moral lessons they present. Also, Ezra wasn't exactly a stuffy historian. He was a scribe, with a keen eye for the rule of law and an undying desire to teach it. He was also a beautiful speaker. He literally wowed the crowds at the king's palace in Babylon and in front of the Water Gate in Jerusalem. Everyone loved the way he told the stories, and maybe that's what it was all about? A means to teach law by sharing stories?

The Ninth Scribe

[Pygoscelis]

apart from the moral lessons they present.

Many of us would dispute there being any morality in those stories :)

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

You lean on the feather (God) thinking it gives you power when indeed you have that power in yourself all along.

Faith and trust in God helps some people find comfort, strength and a peace that surpasses all understanding. As faith and trust in God happens there seems the need to do something, to give something back to the community

That being said, I'm glad you have such feather if it enables you to do good for the community.

Being a parent and grandparent I often worry about what my own kids get up to late at night. It is with these thoughts in mind that I try and make sense of the role of Street Pastor. We hope that people will talk to us, and I feel that they do.
We go out trying to encourage the youngsters to care for each other, and to take care of the community. I feel troubled by the numbers of young 13, 14, year old girls wondering around the streets gone midnight; often the worse for drink or drugs. Our role seems very limited in that we can only be a presence walking around the streets, parks, and alleys. We have been told by a number of people and the police; that they appreciate a kind of calming influence in the community when we are around.

I just hope the feather doesn't happen to come bundled with anything less community friendly.

You mean do we go out preaching to all the atheists out there:) We go around with jackets that have Street Pastors written in large reflective letters, which means we have to put up with all the insults, and micky taking; it is often done with good humour. We do introduce ourselves as belonging to the local churches and I leave it at that. Sometimes people ask us about God, and we try and answer them.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our communities.

Eric

[Ninth_Scribe]

Many of us would dispute there being any morality in those stories :)

Yes, but you don't know Ezra (Uzayr) as well as I do. I've studied his work for almost nine years now, and I've adapted to the way he viewed his religious obligations. For instance, you will not find one record written by him that attempts to vindicate his people from divine judgment. In fact, one message is repeated over and over again:

Defy the laws of God, and you will be punished.

He defies all modern adaptations of religion that suggest babtism or bloodline can save one from religious prosecution. He believed the fall of Judah was an act of divine judgement and their punishment was Babylon. Likewise, Moses was punished too. In the story, a slave became a great leader but when he displeased God, he was not allowed into the promised land. Different story, same principle.

Ezra has a habit of repeating his message over and over again, regardless of how it's written or what story its been inserted into. In fact, this is one reason I know for certain he was not the author of the Books of Esdras, they are fakes, because the work contradicts the principles he held dear to his very soul. That, and his style of writing does not match up with the author's style in those books (Esdras, Tobit and Enoch).

Wow, I just answered my own question, why he would re-write the story of Sargon the way he did. He did it to prove to the sons of Abraham that any one, no matter how favored they are by God, can invoke his wrath should they disobey Holy Law.

Tee hee. Thanks guys :)

The Ninth Scribe