Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

[aadil77]

This may sound stupid!

Do christians worship God and Jesus both equally etc?,
or just Jesus on his own? Or do some christians only worship God?
Seriously I don't have a clue!:-[

Well I've seen boards outside churches saying 'Your Lord is Jesus, Come worship him here' it sounded as if worshipping the Creator himself doesn't matter:?

Also when you 'thank God' do you thank Jesus or God ? the same with other situations

[ddz]

basically, some denominations of the christian faith beleive that God is made up of Three forms, all of which ARE GOD.. just like water has 3 forms - Water (Liquid Form), Ice (Solid Form), Water Vapour (Gas)

The three forms of God are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. and soo I guess this is why some pray to Jesus, because they beleive he is God, in a different form.. thus the Trinity comes into Play

Some christians (Jehovah's Witnesses especially) beleive that Jesus was God's first creation of life, even before the heavens and earth, even before Adam and Eve etc etc but these denominations do not recognise Jesus as God, but usually do recognise his importance and end prayers by saying 'and we say this through your Son Jesus Christ Amen' just like Jesus delivered the Good News, they see him as a messenger to God and so ask prayers through his name.

Many Many other christians say prayers through Jesus as well including Trinitarians alike. But christians are not polytheists as some might tend to beleive, perhaps its how we interpret and perceive God that distinguishes us from other monotheistic groups

Within Islam there is strictly 1 God, and none as high or as equal, all are prophets who speak his work. Some denominations of Christianity allow the Supreme Diety as having another form - Jesus Christ

Hope this helps, sounds a little confusing, but Christians beleive in ONE God, its just the interpretations. :) God Bless

[Mikayeel]

basically, some denominations of the christian faith beleive that God is made up of Three forms, all of which ARE GOD.. just like water has 3 forms - Water (Liquid Form), Ice (Solid Form), Water Vapour (Gas)

The three forms of God are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. and soo I guess this is why some pray to Jesus, because they beleive he is God, in a different form.. thus the Trinity comes into Play

Some christians (Jehovah's Witnesses especially) beleive that Jesus was God's first creation of life, even before the heavens and earth, even before Adam and Eve etc etc but these denominations do not recognise Jesus as God, but usually do recognise his importance and end prayers by saying 'and we say this through your Son Jesus Christ Amen' just like Jesus delivered the Good News, they see him as a messenger to God and so ask prayers through his name.

Many Many other christians say prayers through Jesus as well including Trinitarians alike. But christians are not polytheists as some might tend to beleive, perhaps its how we interpret and perceive God that distinguishes us from other monotheistic groups

Within Islam there is strictly 1 God, and none as high or as equal, all are prophets who speak his work. Some denominations of Christianity allow the Supreme Diety as having another form - Jesus Christ

Hope this helps, sounds a little confusing, but Christians beleive in ONE God, its just the interpretations. :) God Bless

may i also ask, since you believe jesus is fully god right? Only in human shape ofcourse... are you guys aware of his imperfection as a human god? Since he used to excrete, urinate.. he used to curse stuff.. he made mistake etc...
or is that part of being a human(god)? I really am looking for that answer, since i couldn't get around it my self :) thank you...

[ddz]

may i also ask, since you believe jesus is fully god right? Only in human shape ofcourse...

Yes, Some Denominations beleive he came down to Earth in human form.

are you guys aware of his imperfection as a human god? Since he used to excrete, urinate.. he used to curse stuff.. he made mistake etc...
or is that part of being a human?

I dont think its imperfection to excrete and urinate, If God created humans to Excrete and Urinate, it only amplifies his ability as the greatest creator of all - The human body is such a complicated and beautiful creation by God, and Excretion and Urination are ways for the body to get rid of chemicals not needed by the Body. But enough about that lool

On the matter of Jesus cursing, hmm.. it doesnt state within the scriptures whether he did or not, but I do know he used to shout sometimes at his desciples because sometimes of their lack of faith - showing human emotions again, and when he entered a temple and saw Jews selling and gambling to make money, he trashed the place - Anger - Human Emotion,

Having done all of this, if you concentrate on his actions alone it seems God in his human form is angry and impatient.. but if you look at it in the long run, it makes sense for him to do this - The temple is for worshipping God Almighty, disciplining the disciples meant they would carry on to do Jesus' work and ministry after his death and resurrection.

He had a human side with human emotions and I dont think he made mistakes, he was a human, but he did not sin. Though he was human he proved his pwer by resurrecting the dead (Lazurus as an example) performing Excorsisms (The Man with the Legion Demon in the land of the Gentiles) Healing the Sick (Centurions Slave, Lepers, Wealthy Man's Ill Daughter) He healed a woman of blindness, calmed down a storm, walked on water etc..

So to sum it up, yes he was God in Human Form (according beleif to most christians, NOT ALL) and being human meant that he had human emotions, human actions, but he was free of Sin.
But being human, he was also capable of doing amazing things as previously explained which defied Normality, Physics, etc etc and left many people in awe, and even Jews and Gentiles back then beleived Jesus Christ had divinity because as Humans they had not seen such a thing, performed by a human..YET he was Human

I really am looking for that answer, since i couldn't get around it my self :)

I hope I have helped :) Thank You

thank you...

Anytime :)

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[Mikayeel]

I dont think its imperfection to excrete and urinate, If God created humans to Excrete and Urinate, it only amplifies his ability as the greatest creator of all - The human body is such a complicated and beautiful creation by God, and Excretion and Urination are ways for the body to get rid of chemicals not needed by the Body.

Lool, can't disagree with you there:),
However i have always wondered why are people so ashamed when doing there business, that they have to lock themselves up in private areas. To show how perfect the act is?

On the matter of Jesus cursing, hmm.. it doesnt state within the scriptures whether he did or not, but I do know he used to shout sometimes at his desciples because sometimes of their lack of faith - showing human emotions again, and when he entered a temple and saw Jews selling and gambling to make money, he trashed the place - Anger - Human Emotion,

And on the next day, when they had departed from Bethany, He became hungry. 13 And seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went to see if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. 14 And He answered and said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening. (skip to verse 20) 20 And as they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots up. (Mark 11:12-14, 20 NASB)

Personally i can't really understand this here, maybe u can enlight me:) Well jesus felt hungry, he saw a fig tree in the distance. He went to it only to find out that there are no figs in the tree.... because they were out of season (something you expect a god to know, since he created that tree in the first place) So he then curses that tree, simple because it did not follow his own laws.

I hope I have helped :) Thank You



Anytime :)

yes it certaintly did help:), i have some counter questions if you don't mind:)
peace

[Keltoi]

Quite simply, God and Jesus are One. As Christ described Himself.

[Mikayeel]

Quite simply, God and Jesus are One. As Christ described Himself.

This passage in the bible makes me think though...

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This here shows how humble a man Jesus was! He was accused of being good! He was showing humility!! 'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God'

'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible' Which god did he mean? Him, or the ONE TRUE GOD! UNIQUE IN HIS ONENESS!?

Is he talking about himself here? Has jesus got a dual personality?


Or is he simply refering to the ONE GOD! The god worthy of worshipping? You tell me:)

[ddz]

Quite simply, God and Jesus are One. As Christ described Himself.

hmmm where does he do this?

However i have always wondered why are people so ashamed when doing there business, that they have to lock themselves up in private areas. To show how perfect the act is?

ummm :? Are you being sarcastic here? lol I really dont know lolzz

yes it certaintly did help, i have some counter questions if you don't mind
peace

ask away bro :)

[Keltoi]

hmmm where does he do this?



ummm :? Are you being sarcastic here? lol I really dont know lolzz



ask away bro :)

I'm surprised you don't know this...

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One".

[Mikayeel]

hmmm where does he do this?



ummm :? Are you being sarcastic here? lol I really dont know lolzz



ask away bro :)

lool, i was sarcastic in a way:) a very innocent way though!

Yep i was just going to ask keltoi, where did JESUS SAY, ''I AM GOD'' OR ''WORSHIP ME'', am not interested in the words of anyone else BUT JESUS!

[Keltoi]

This passage in the bible makes me think though...

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This here shows how humble a man Jesus was! He was accused of being good! He was showing humility!! 'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God'

'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible' Which god did he mean? Him, or the ONE TRUE GOD! UNIQUE IN HIS ONENESS!?

Is he talking about himself here? Has jesus got a dual personality?


Or is he simply refering to the ONE GOD! The god worthy of worshipping? You tell me:)

Christ was referring to God. The One who sent Him to Earth for a particular purpose. To even begin to understand this you have to understand Christ's relationship with the Father. Plus, you have to understand why Christ was born into flesh in the first place.

Christ is considered to be of the same essence as the Father, sent by the Father as the living Word, and sent to achieve atonement for the sins of mankind. To do this, Christ would have to have been fully human, with all the weakness and temptation that effects all mankind. That being the case, Christ would be humble. Christ was dependant upon God, in the same way that all mankind is dependant upon God.

[ddz]

This here shows how humble a man Jesus was! He was accused of being good! He was showing humility!! 'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God'

Agreed :)

'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible' Which god did he mean? Him, or the ONE TRUE GOD! UNIQUE IN HIS ONENESS!?

Is he talking about himself here? Has jesus got a dual personality?

Or is he simply refering to the ONE GOD! The god worthy of worshipping? You tell me

The disciples are still learning, they are still amazed with Jesus' words and actions, he is infact talking to his disciples about God, If he was to say 'I am God' first of all his disciples would've been confused and probably thought Jesus was blasphemous.. Jesus was strengthening their faith for whom they knew to be up in the heavens, for whom they were personal to and also beleived in. It would be easy for him to have said 'I am God' worship me, but this would most probably have caused confusion and questioned their own faith in who to beleive. Plus, I beleive that perhaps it showed more faith in beleiving and worshipping someone which no body had ever seen or witnessed , so Jesus said to others to beleive in God- because the faith they put in someone who they had not seen before would have been far greater than for the people to suddenly beleive Jesus was God..

[ddz]

lool, i was sarcastic in a way a very innocent way though!

sooo you agreed with my comment? or does that mean you disagreed lol sorry bro sarcasam over the internet somtimes confuses mee >_<;; haha

[Mikayeel]

Christ was referring to God. The One who sent Him to Earth for a particular purpose. To even begin to understand this you have to understand Christ's relationship with the Father. Plus, you have to understand why Christ was born into flesh in the first place.

Christ is considered to be of the same essence as the Father, sent by the Father as the living Word, and sent to achieve atonement for the sins of mankind. To do this, Christ would have to have been fully human, with all the weakness and temptation that effects all mankind. That being the case, Christ would be humble. Christ was dependant upon God, in the same way that all mankind is dependant upon God.

wow, this is when my brain can't follow it nomore.... every christian so far has explained it to me in a different way...


Christ relationship with the father? All i know is that they are one!
1+1+1=1(?), so christ is a 1/3 of the total??.. or he is he 3/3(1)(fully god).??. Do you know what aslong as it makes sense to you:)

peace

[Keltoi]

wow, this is when my brain can't follow it nomore.... every christian so far has explained it to me in a different way...


Christ relationship with the father? All i know is that they are one!
1+1+1=1(?), so christ is a 1/3 of the total??.. or he is he 3/3(1)(fully god).??. Do you know what aslong as it makes sense to you:)

peace

If you want the official doctrinal explanation read the Nicean Creed.

[Mikayeel]

I'm surprised you don't know this...

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One".

here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=634o4BIArrY

,I have to go off and sleep now!

[TrueStranger]

Quite simply, God and Jesus are One. As Christ described Himself.

Are they one Spiritually? Physically? or Mentally? They can't be separate and at the same time be one.

[Keltoi]

Are they one Spiritually? Physically? or Mentally? They can't be separate and at the same time be one.

As I've already mentioned, they are One in that Christ was of the same essence as the Father, sent directly by Him and from Him. That is why Christ is referred to as the "Son" and God as the "Father".

[Keltoi]

here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=634o4BIArrY

,I have to go off and sleep now!

A rather long-winded attempt to create his own context to a situation that is already clear in context. It is clear because the other Gospels address the issue in the same way with slightly different quotes.

During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,

"I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
"Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
"You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)

There was no confusion about what Jesus meant, and there is no confusion as to why the Pharisees accused Him of blasphemy. Deedat tried to muddy the waters by suggesting the Pharisees were simply looking for any excuse to stone Christ, but that is his own creation, not something contained within the Gospels.

[aadil77]

So basically when you pray you refer to one God which somehow includes 3 beings, kind of like how hindu's pray to their idols but refer to one 'God'

Also what about the rest of the prophets sent to mankind from 'God', aren't they
also the 'sons of the father',:?

[Umar001]

Deedat tried to muddy the waters by suggesting the Pharisees were simply looking for any excuse to stone Christ, but that is his own creation, not something contained within the Gospels.

You don't think they were?

[Keltoi]

You don't think they were?

Christ wasn't stoned...which sort of says no to that question. The Pharisees were actually reluctant to execute Christ because of the number of His followers. Which is why they handed Christ over to the Romans to do the job for them. It was Christ's claim of divinity that led them to feel justified in doing so.

[barney]

Yet the romans washed their hands, and so legally wasnt his execution by a non-state approved collection of preists, with no jusrisdiction.
The Romans AFAIK organised the crucifixions and had some genuine ordinary criminals tried by their system up that day as well. (two others?)

A Similar situation I suppose would be A Liberal Political activist being shouted down by his opponents and tried on their own Conservative party rules, after the State threw the case out of court. :huh:

[Umar001]

Christ wasn't stoned...which sort of says no to that question. The Pharisees were actually reluctant to execute Christ because of the number of His followers. Which is why they handed Christ over to the Romans to do the job for them. It was Christ's claim of divinity that led them to feel justified in doing so.

Let me rephrase, do you not think that the Pharasees and others were looking for any reason to get rid of Jesus?

[Keltoi]

Let me rephrase, do you not think that the Pharasees and others were looking for any reason to get rid of Jesus?

I'm sure they would have been happy to see Him gone. They knew the way to see Him gone and still maintain their stature was to execute Him for His claims of divinity as the Son of God.

[barney]

Are they one Spiritually? Physically? or Mentally? They can't be separate and at the same time be one.

Your forgetting that anything is possible with God.:)

[john316]

This passage in the bible makes me think though...

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

This here shows how humble a man Jesus was! He was accused of being good! He was showing humility!! 'Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God'

'But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible' Which god did he mean? Him, or the ONE TRUE GOD! UNIQUE IN HIS ONENESS!?

Is he talking about himself here? Has jesus got a dual personality?


Or is he simply refering to the ONE GOD! The god worthy of worshipping? You tell me:)

Is Jesus good?

[john316]

Is Jesus good?

Is Jesus good?

[MustafaMc]

ask away bro :)

I have a few questions:

How do you reconcile one person coming up from baptism, another entity descending upon the first in the appearance of a dove and yet another announcing to those present that the first one is His son - and yet all three are at that very moment only One God? Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water (1): and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove (2), and coming upon him;and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (3).

If Jesus is God incarnate, how can he be tempted by the devil? Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Jesus later says that one can't tempt or make trial of God - Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, Again it is written, Thou shalt not make trial of the Lord thy God.

How can God possibly worship the devil? Matthew 4:9-10 and he (devil) said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

[barney]

I have a few questions:

How do you reconcile one person coming up from baptism, another entity descending upon the first in the appearance of a dove and yet another announcing to those present that the first one is His son - and yet all three are at that very moment only One God? Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water (1): and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove (2), and coming upon him;and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased (3).

Well baptism is a time of great spiritual emotion.
Seeing a bird flying about and beleiving that it is god and hearing an auditory halluncination would be pretty common under those circumstances.

[john316]

We are waiting for Hamada 's response to our question. 'Is Jesus good?' I am waiting........

[john316]

wow, this is when my brain can't follow it nomore.... every christian so far has explained it to me in a different way...


Christ relationship with the father? All i know is that they are one!
1+1+1=1(?), so christ is a 1/3 of the total??.. or he is he 3/3(1)(fully god).??. Do you know what aslong as it makes sense to you:)

peace

1 X 1 X1 = 1

And we are going to ask you one more time. Within that context which you qouted from scripture where did Jesus say He is not good. 'Is Jesus good?' Even your quran affirms that he is sinless.

[john316]

John 20:24-29
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his believe. hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[MustafaMc]

We are waiting for Hamada 's response to our question. 'Is Jesus good?' I am waiting........

How did Jesus reply when he was addressed as "good teacher"?

[snakelegs]

John 20:24-29
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his believe. hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not
26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

i looked this up and found that 2 verses later jesus says but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
so first he doesn't correct thomas for calling him my lord and my god and then he says he is the son of god.
maybe you can see why all this makes no sense to non-christians?

[john316]

Jesus is God in the flesh. HE is GOD THE FATHER BY NATURE NOT POSITION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Jesus is God in the flesh. HE is GOD THE FATHER BY NATURE NOT POSITION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

Sorry dude, never did and never will. :sunny:

[snakelegs]

Jesus is God in the flesh. HE is GOD THE FATHER BY NATURE NOT POSITION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

nope.

[north_malaysian]

I'm surprised you don't know this...

John 10:30 "I and My Father are One".

Some sufis are also claiming that they and God become one through a concept of "Wahdatul Wujud"... if I'm not mistaken..... "Wahdatul Wujud" concept is banned in Malaysia.

[john316]

Sorry dude, never did and never will. :sunny:

GOD is GOD because of his NATURE

Galatians 4:8(YLT)
But then, indeed, not having known God, ye were in servitude to those not by nature gods,

[YusufNoor]

Jesus is God in the flesh. HE is GOD THE FATHER BY NATURE NOT POSITION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

:sl:

so let me ask, IF Jesus is your god AND your god is all powerful AND in control of the universe, does that mean that when your Jesus is alleged to have been crucified, that he crucified himself? wouldn't that be suicide? and forbidden?

:w:

[john316]

good questions. First of all Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

[snakelegs]

no jew would allow himself to be addressed as "my lord and my god". it's as simple as that. :muddlehea

[YusufNoor]

good questions. First of all Jesus offered himself as a sacrifice.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father .

it seems like:


No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. again, suicide!

I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

this is really strange, IF he can "lay down his life" AND "take it up gain"; then he isn't really dead or he couldn't "take it up gain"; which means that he didn't really "lay it down", doesn't it?

This commandment have I received of my Father , which would of course mean that he gave it to himself!???

and this makes sense?

:w:

[Armand]

Jesus is God in the flesh. HE is GOD THE FATHER BY NATURE NOT POSITION DOES THAT MAKE SENSE.

But is not flesh a created substance? Surely it is.

This implies that God, the creator of flesh, transformed into His own creation. This is in violation of the unity and oneness of God. As soon as God turns into flesh His oneness becomes invalidated.

[glo]

no jew would allow himself to be addressed as "my lord and my god". it's as simple as that. :muddlehea

Quite. It would be blasphemous to the extreme!

Yet Jesus did allow it ... make of that what you will ...

Peace :)

[snakelegs]

Quite. It would be blasphemous to the extreme!

Yet Jesus did allow it ... make of that what you will ...

Peace :)

i do.
peace right back at you!. :)

[john316]

How did Jesus reply when he was addressed as "good teacher"?

Show me where Jesus denied that he was good. Show where did He correct Thomas when he said to him My Lord and My God.

[john316]

John 8:58(One of my favorite verse)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[MustafaMc]

Show me where Jesus denied that he was good. Show where did He correct Thomas when he said to him My Lord and My God.

You did not answer my question. Would you like for me to answer it for you with a quote from the Bible?

How did Jesus reply when he was addressed as "good teacher"?

[john316]

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Now that I answered your question answer my questions

Is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1?
What did Jesus mean when He said this?
John 10:30 (Young's Literal Translation)
I and the Father are one.'
John 8:58 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'
And lastly
Is Jesus 'good'?

[جوري]

Why are we using multiplication here, did the bible say to multiply?
God impregnated a mortal woman, but before he did, he came to her in person tell her, he was going to impregenate her with himself, he then decided to leave the cosmos and the laws that govern our world behind to suckle as a helpless infant some where in a small town Nazareth, hang around as a pauper for a few years curse the world he created for not bearing the fruit he wanted, go on paying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane, declare he is God, get crucified and die... And we are expected to buy this as the same guy/God?

and christians wonder why people leave christianity behind in a hurry? try selling this one to fa irst grader.. Think there is less confusion over santa clause than the tri-God...

astghfor Allah al3li il3atheem-- sheer ignorance!

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

Show me where Jesus denied that he was good. Show where did He correct Thomas when he said to him My Lord and My God.

That argument would make some sense if your bible didn't have so many different contradicting versions.

[Armand]

glo,

Perhaps you can shed some light on this one.

But is not flesh a created substance? Surely it is.

This implies that God, the creator of flesh, transformed into His own creation. This is in violation of the unity and oneness of God. As soon as God turns into flesh His oneness becomes invalidated.

[john316]

Why are we using multiplication here, did the bible say to multiply?
God impregnated a mortal woman, but before he did, he came to her in person tell her, he was going to impregenate her with himself, he then decided to leave the cosmos and the laws that govern our world behind to suckle as a helpless infant some where in a small town Nazareth, hang around as a pauper for a few years curse the world he created for not bearing the fruit he wanted, go on paying to himself in the garden of Gethsemane, declare he is God, get crucified and die... And we are expected to buy this as the same guy/God?

and christians wonder why people leave christianity behind in a hurry? try selling this one to fa irst grader.. Think there is less confusion over santa clause than the tri-God...

astghfor Allah al3li il3atheem-- sheer ignorance!

1 cube is just an analogy to make you understand the trinity little better rather than using 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[john316]

See you guys dont answer my questions. Speechless!! :)

Philiapians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[جوري]

1 cube is just an analogy to make you understand the trinity little better rather than using 1 + 1 + 1 = 1

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

lol indeed... you should really have a closer look at 'saul/paul' when discerning that declaration and worshipping the man/god

cheers

p.s 1+1+1= 3
last we left it-- perhaps that is why we can't understand you.. you don't know of God any more than you know simple math?
You can't use cubes, squares, circles, narnians, humans or animals when speaking of God... but christianity is much like Greek mythology (perhaps that was its original appeal) except even Zeus' Hercules from a mortal woman wasn't one in the same... an amazing thing it is this veil of ignorance that dulls the senses and leaves them aghast still in the dark ages, God forbid one should question their centuries old folly!

[Armand]

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Indeed they did ("apostle Paul"?) :)

[john316]

Indeed they did ("apostle Paul"?) :)

In the context Jesus was talking about the last days which encomapasses our generation. The days of the Pauline era were not the last days. :)
Please read your bible. You've got a reading assignment. Matthew 24. Note that down. :)

[Armand]

Then why did you even bother citing the verse?

[جوري]

Then why did you even bother citing the verse?

lol.. maybe because he is a hypocrite?.. Prophet Mohammed days, weren't the last days either, were they? Or do people just write to suit their desires?
wa sob7an Allah

:w:

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

lol.. maybe because he is a hypocrite?.. Prophet Mohammed days, weren't the last days either, were they? Or do people just write to suit their desires?
wa sob7an Allah

:w:

:sl:

Indeed it is exactly as Allaah has said:

{Rather, We have brought them the truth, and indeed they are liars.} [al-Muminoon; 90]

[جوري]

:sl:

Indeed it is exactly as Allaah has said:

{Rather, We have brought them the truth, and indeed they are liars.} [al-Muminoon; 90]

one of my favorite suras, and Masha'Allah I see it in your quote

http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=outdoo...1&rm_size=2.73

here is the abridged version from youtube

Media Tags are no longer supported

[john316]

lol.. maybe because he is a hypocrite?.. Prophet Mohammed days, weren't the last days either, were they? Or do people just write to suit their desires?
wa sob7an Allah

:w:

i know your prophet's days werent last either. in the context Jesus says the gospels must reach the ends of the earth. which happening now. PRAISE THE LORD!!! PLease read Matthew 24 :)

[جوري]

i know your prophet's days werent last either. in the context Jesus says the gospels must reach the ends of the earth. which happening now. PRAISE THE LORD!!!

lol.. actually this is what your man/god said--

'I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.' (Matthew 15:24)[1]

and Islam is soon to outnumber christianity we now stand at 1.86 billion .. already it has outnumbered the largest denomination of roman catholicism.. the rest of the many many confused thousands of sects, have very small sliver of hope of being made into anything other than confusing fairy tales for susceptible children and ignorant red neckers..

so take your evangelizing else where, no one here is buyin'

cheers

[جوري]

Matthew 15:24 >>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Answering Anyone Except Israel's Lost Replied Save Sheep Wandering Wasn't

Except House Israel Israel's Lost Save Sheep Wandering Wasn't

Except House Israel Israel's Lost Save Sheep Wandering Wasn't

American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.

Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.

English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Mateo 15:24 Spanish: La Biblia de las Américas (©1997)
Y respondiendo El, dijo: No he sido enviado sino a las ovejas perdidas de la casa de Israel.

Mateo 15:24 Spanish: La Nueva Biblia de los Hispanos (©2005)
Y Jesús respondió: "No he sido enviado sino a las ovejas perdidas de la casa de Israel."

Mateo 15:24 Spanish: Reina Valera (1909)
Y él respondiendo, dijo: No soy enviado sino á las ovejas perdidas de la casa de Israel.

Mateo 15:24 Spanish: Sagradas Escrituras (1569)
Y él respondiendo, dijo: No soy enviado sino a las ovejas perdidas de la Casa de Israel.

Mateo 15:24 Spanish: Modern
Y respondiendo dijo: --Yo no he sido enviado sino a las ovejas perdidas de la casa de Israel.

Matthieu 15:24 French: Louis Segond (1910)
Il répondit: Je n'ai été envoyé qu'aux brebis perdues de la maison d'Israël.

Matthieu 15:24 French: Darby
Mais lui, répondant, dit: Je ne suis envoyé qu'aux brebis perdues de la maison d'Israël.

Matthieu 15:24 French: Martin (1744)
Et il répondit, et dit : je ne suis envoyé qu'aux brebis perdues de la maison d'Israël.

Matthieu 15:24 French: Ostervald (1744)
Et il répondit: Je ne suis envoyé qu'aux brebis perdues de la maison d'Israël.

Matthaeus 15:24 German: Luther (1912)
Er antwortete aber und sprach: Ich bin nicht gesandt denn nur zu den verlorenen Schafen von dem Hause Israel.

Matthaeus 15:24 German: Luther (1545)
Er antwortete aber und sprach: Ich bin nicht gesandt, denn nur zu den verlornen Schafen von dem Hause Israel.

Matthaeus 15:24 German: Elberfelder (1871)
Er aber antwortete und sprach: Ich bin nicht gesandt, als nur zu den verlorenen Schafen des Hauses Israel.

馬 太 福 音 15:24 Chinese Bible: Union (Traditional)
耶 穌 說 ： 我 奉 差 遣 不 過 是 到 以 色 列 家 迷 失 的 羊 那 裡 去 。

馬 太 福 音 15:24 Chinese Bible: Union (Simplified)
耶 稣 说 ： 我 奉 差 遣 不 过 是 到 以 色 列 家 迷 失 的 羊 那 里 去 。

馬 太 福 音 15:24 Chinese Bible: NCV (Simplified)
耶稣回答：“我被差遣，只是到以色列家的迷羊那里去。”

馬 太 福 音 15:24 Chinese Bible: NCV (Traditional)
耶穌回答：“我被差遣，只是到以色列家的迷羊那裡去。”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ο definite article - nominative singular masculine
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
δε conjunction
de deh: but, and, etc. -- also, and, but, moreover, now (often unexpressed in English).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
αποκριθεις verb - aorist passive deponent participle - nominative singular masculine
apokrinomai ap-ok-ree'-nom-ahee: to conclude for oneself, i.e. (by implication) to respond; by Hebraism to begin to speak (where an address is expected) -- answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ειπεν verb - second aorist active indicative - third person singular
epo ep'-o: to speak or say (by word or writing) -- answer, bid, bring word, call, command, grant, say (on), speak, tell.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ουκ particle - nominative
ou oo: no or not -- + long, nay, neither, never, no (man), none, (can-)not, + nothing, + special, un(-worthy), when, + without, + yet but.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
απεσταλην verb - second aorist passive indicative - first person singular
apostello ap-os-tel'-lo: set apart, i.e. (by implication) to send out (properly, on a mission) literally or figuratively -- put in, send (away, forth, out), set (at liberty).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ει conditional
ei i: if, whether, that, etc. -- forasmuch as, if, that, (al-)though, whether.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
μη particle - nominative
me may: any but (that), forbear, God forbid, lack, lest, neither, never, no (wise in), none, nor, (can-)not, nothing, that not, un(-taken), without.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
εις preposition
eis ice: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
τα definite article - accusative plural neuter
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
προβατα noun - accusative plural neuter
probaton prob'-at-on: something that walks forward (a quadruped), i.e. (specially), a sheep -- sheep(-fold).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
τα definite article - accusative plural neuter
ho ho: the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom) -- the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
απολωλοτα verb - second perfect active passive - accusative plural neuter
apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee: to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively -- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
οικου noun - genitive singular masculine
oikos oy'-kos: a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication, a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively) -- home, house(-hold), temple.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ισραηλ proper noun
Israel is-rah-ale': Israel (i.e. Jisrael), the adopted name of Jacob, including his descendants -- Israel.
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· Οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν Οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν· οὐκ ἀπεστάλην εἰ μὴ εἰς τὰ πρόβατα τὰ ἀπολωλότα οἴκου Ἰσραήλ.

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ απεσταλην ει μη εις τα προβατα τα απολωλοτα οικου ισραηλ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ απεσταλην ει μη εις τα προβατα τα απολωλοτα οικου ισραηλ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ απεσταλην ει μη εις τα προβατα τα απολωλοτα οικου ισραηλ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ απεσταλην ει μη εις τα προβατα τα απολωλοτα οικου ισραηλ

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 15:24 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort
ο δε αποκριθεις ειπεν ουκ απεσταλην ει μη εις τα προβατα τα απολωλοτα οικου ισραηλ

Matthew 15:24 Hebrew Bible
ויען ויאמר לא שלחתי כי אם אל הצאן האבדות לבית ישראל׃

Apocalypsis 22:21 Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata
ipse autem respondens ait non sum missus nisi ad oves quae perierunt domus Israhel

New American Standard Bible Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation, La Habra, Calif. All rights reserved. For Permission to Quote Information visit http://www.lockman.org.


Alphabetical: and answered But He house I Israel lost of only said sent sheep the to was

Matthew 15:24 Multilingual Bible

ScriptureText.com Multilingual Bible

http://scripturetext.com/matthew/15-24.htm
and there you have it folks.. the man/God in their million bibles apparently only sent to the Jews...

[john316]

Matthew 21:42-44(YLT)
Jesus saith to them, `Did ye never read in the Writings, A stone that the builders disallowed, it became head of a corner; from the Lord hath this come to pass, and it is wonderful in our eyes. `Because of this I say to you, that the reign of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth its fruit; and he who is falling on this stone shall be broken, and on whomsoever it may fall it will crush him to pieces.'

Matthew 21:42-44(KJV)
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.


My my I thank the Lord for increasing your knowledge.

GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST
AND PEACE TO HIS PEOPLE ON EARTH
HONOR AND PRAISE IN ALL OF HIS GLORY
AND LOVE HIM IN ALL MANKIND!!!!!

[MustafaMc]

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

In this instance, Jesus is in effect denying that he is "good" and replied that God alone is good.

Now that I answered your question answer my questions

Is 1 X 1 X 1 = 1?

Yes, it is. An example is a box with a height of 1m, a width of 1m and a depth of 1m. The area of this box is 1 cubic meter 1m X 1m X 1m. Since I can't comprehend Jesus as being width, can you give me a real world example that would be analogous to the Trinity?

What did Jesus mean when He said this?
John 10:30 (Young's Literal Translation)
I and the Father are one.'

I am not sure, but didn't he later say that the Father sanctified and sent him into the world. In that instance aren't the 2 distinct with one sending and the other being sent?

John 8:58 (Young's Literal Translation)
Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'

I don't know as I don't know what was meant by "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it." What about "It is my Father that honors me, of whom you say, that He is your God."?

And lastly
Is Jesus 'good'?

"there is none good but one, that is, God." Jesus is not God.

[glo]

glo,

Perhaps you can shed some light on this one.

But is not flesh a created substance? Surely it is.

This implies that God, the creator of flesh, transformed into His own creation. This is in violation of the unity and oneness of God. As soon as God turns into flesh His oneness becomes invalidated.

Greetings Armand

I have not really followed this thread, but I will try to comment briefly.

Yes, I believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.
I suppose whether it 'violates God's oneness' depends on how God defines his oneness ...
We agree that there is only one God.
Do you think it would be outside his ability to be born man, if he so chose?

The dual nature of Jesus is a mystery. I don't think anybody can fully and clearly explain it.
People arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was human and divine by studying the scripture and discussing their findings.

Perhaps you might find this site helpful:

That Jesus is both God and human is a mystery beyond our limited experience. Yet no other explanation upholds all that Scripture says about Jesus Christ. Understanding this essential truth is more than an intellectual exercise. It involves appreciating the great depths of God's love for us.

I must get ready for work now. :)

Peace

P.S. Armand, the link I gave was removed by mods, so most of the information to answer your question is gone. PM me if you want to know more. Peace :)

[MustafaMc]

The dual nature of Jesus is a mystery. I don't think anybody can fully and clearly explain it.
People arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was human and divine by studying the scripture and discussing their findings.

How many times did Jesus clearly state that he was the "Son of Man" as compared to the "Son of God"?

If I remember correctly, the few times that Jesus was quoted as saying he was the Son of God all occured in John - not in the synoptic gospels.

[john316]

In this instance, Jesus is in effect denying that he is "good" and replied that God alone is good.Yes, it is. An example is a box with a height of 1m, a width of 1m and a depth of 1m. The area of this box is 1 cubic meter 1m X 1m X 1m. Since I can't comprehend Jesus as being width, can you give me a real world example that would be analogous to the Trinity?I am not sure, but didn't he later say that the Father sanctified and sent him into the world. In that instance aren't the 2 distinct with one sending and the other being sent?
I don't know as I don't know what was meant by "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it." What about "It is my Father that honors me, of whom you say, that He is your God."?"there is none good but one, that is, God." Jesus is not God.

That still does not answer my questions 'Is Jesus 'good'?'

[john316]

How many times did Jesus clearly state that he was the "Son of Man" as compared to the "Son of God"?

If I remember correctly, the few times that Jesus was quoted as saying he was the Son of God all occured in John - not in the synoptic gospels.

Matthew 16:16-20
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.


You need to do a lot of reading. :)

[barney]

That still does not answer my questions 'Is Jesus 'good'?'

By who's Values?

Instructing his followers to hate their families and ordering disbeleivers to be brought in front of him and killed, smashing up government property.

Ive managed to get through life without doing these things , so perhaps if he's good, I'm some sort of uberbrilliantsuperflygood

[john316]

Jesus always had two disticnt titles. The Son of Man refering to His Manhood and the Son of God referring to His divinity.

[john316]

By who's Values?

Instructing his followers to hate their families and ordering disbeleivers to be brought in front of him and killed, smashing up government property.

Ive managed to get through life without doing these things , so perhaps if he's good, I'm some sort of uberbrilliantsuperflygood

You guys need to do a lot of reading. That's all I can say. Read to book yourself and comprehend what was said, when it was said, how it was said, to whom it was said, & why was it said. :) that is not a smart reply but just shows me how knaive you are of scripture.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

You guys need to do a lot of reading. That's all I can say. Read to book yourself and comprehend what was said, when it was said, how it was said, to whom it was said, & why was it said. :) that is not a smart reply but just shows me how knaive you are of scripture.

If you had a consistent scripture it would make some sense for me to do that. But when there are many versions of the same "scripture" it's quite pointless and a waste of time and the authenticity of what's being read is greatly reduced. You need to wake up to the fact that your scripture is altered (heard of the Canon?) and contains blatant contradictions and each denomination within your religion claims a different theory about the reality of Jesus which to me indicates that you are a people confused. At least the Christians I know and meet with have enough justice to acknowledge this fact, but with all due respect, you seem to be just a desperately deluded and confused individual.

Just an observation. :)

[aadil77]

Matthew 21:42-44(YLT


My my I thank the Lord for increasing your knowledge.

GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST
AND PEACE TO HIS PEOPLE ON EARTH
HONOR AND PRAISE IN ALL OF HIS GLORY
AND LOVE HIM IN ALL MANKIND!!!!!

Thank who ?:?
Glory to who?:?
Praise who?:?

God (the creator), Jesus man god, mary, holy spirit?
seriously who are you thanking?, which is what I asked at the very beggining of this thread

[john316]

If you had a consistent scripture it would make some sense for me to do that. But when there are many versions of the same "scripture" it's quite pointless and a waste of time and the authenticity of what's being read is greatly reduced. You need to wake up to the fact that your scripture is altered (heard of the Canon?) and contains blatant contradictions and each denomination within your religion claims a different theory about the reality of Jesus which to me indicates that you are a people confused. At least the Christians I know and meet with have enough justice to acknowledge this fact, but with all due respect, you seem to be just a desperately deluded and confused individual.

Just an observation. :)

We are neither cathlolic or orthodox. Our final authority in the WORD OF GOD alone. which contains the The Old Testament(Tanakh) and the New Testament. It is by God's grace alone that I am saved. So please do more research of the canons to learn more:)

[john316]

Thank who ?:?
Glory to who?:?
Praise who?:?

God (the creator), Jesus man god, mary, holy spirit?
seriously who are you thanking?, which is what I asked at the very beggining of this thread

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I dont know whether it's worthwhile answering your questions or whether answering them is going to make a difference. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[aadil77]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I dont know whether it's worthwhile answering your questions or whether answering them is going to make a difference. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Lol i'm glad you found it funny:thumbs_up, because I find it funny when someone says 'thank the lord' And I think to myself which one? Just like how when hindus say thank god, I'm like which one?

So could you just give me a simple answer to who you're referring to when you say 'Praise the Lord'

thanks

[MustafaMc]

Matthew 16:16-20
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God."

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[c] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[d] will not overcome it.[e] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[f] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[g] loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.


You need to do a lot of reading. :)

Jesus did not say in this passage that he was the Son of God, he tiold the disciples not to tell that he was the Christ, or Messiah, he did not say he was the Son of God.

[john316]

Lol i'm glad you found it funny:thumbs_up, because I find it funny when someone says 'thank the lord' And I think to myself which one? Just like how when hindus say thank god, I'm like which one?

So could you just give me a simple answer to who you're referring to when you say 'Praise the Lord'

thanks

Whoever we thank we thank the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DThat's the only God we know.

[john316]

Jesus did not say in this passage that he was the Son of God, he tiold the disciples not to tell that he was the Christ, or Messiah, he did not say he was the Son of God.

Why did Jesus not correct him but on the contrary bless upon his confession that He was the Christ, Son of the ever living God. :)

[john316]

Jesus did not say in this passage that he was the Son of God, he tiold the disciples not to tell that he was the Christ, or Messiah, he did not say he was the Son of God.

You keep ignoring the question "Is Jesus Good?" I understand from your perspective that He is not God and that is what you answered me. But that still does not answer my question. "Is Jesus good?" It's just a simple yes or no.

[barney]

I'd say on balance from the little we know of him, He was pretty basically good, whith a few off days where he was inciting violence and hatred. (If you take the gospels as an accurate account)

[john316]

This is called "hyperbole"—a statement of extremes, contrasting love with hate for emphasis’ sake. The Bible often does this (Proverbs 13:24; 29:24). Jesus tells us that the first and greatest Commandment is to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind (Matthew 22:37,38). As much as we treasure our spouse and family, and even our own life, there should be no one whom we love and value more than God, no one who takes precedence in our life. To place love for another (including ourselves) above God is idolatry.

[wth1257]

Jesus always had two disticnt titles. The Son of Man refering to His Manhood and the Son of God referring to His divinity.

Son of Man was a title he gave himself, son of God was given by Paul I beleive

[wth1257]

I'd say on balance from the little we know of him, He was pretty basically good, whith a few off days where he was inciting violence and hatred. (If you take the gospels as an accurate account)

Jesus never incited violence.

With all due respect this seems like Hitchens hyperbole:raging:

[barney]

The Bible is full of Hyperbole?

Just how inspired is it! You can write what you just wrote the first and greatest Commandment is to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind without resorting to hyperbole.
Were the Miracles Hyperbole. Was the water turned into wine, or did Jesus just get a round of drinks in? Did the Red Sea Split, or did the Egyptian fleet get caught in a storm and have to turn back? Did Jesus in his God-mode slaughter every first born of Egypt, or did a Jewish terrorist group like an ancient Stern Gang, simply kill a few thousand people in the city who hadnt marked their doors to avoid the ethnic cleansing?

[barney]

Jesus never incited violence.

With all due respect this seems like Hitchens hyperbole:raging:

Matthew 10:34
'Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth.'
Matthew 10:34
'I have not come to bring peace but a sword.'
Luke 12:49
'I have come to bring fire to the earth.'
Luke 12:49
'And how I wish it were blazing already
Luke 12:51
'Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!'

Matthew 10:35
'I have come to set son against father...
Matthew 10:35
'...daughter against mother...'

Matthew 10:35
'...and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law
Luke 14:26
'If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple

As a postscript to this, Jesus has himself tortured and killed in order to save Mankind from his own wrath.:enough!:

[MustafaMc]

Why did Jesus not correct him but on the contrary bless upon his confession that He was the Christ, Son of the ever living God. :)

...and why did you select the Matthew version of Peter's answer to this question?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mark 8:29 ...And Peter answered and said unto him, You are the Christ.

Luke9:20 ...Peter answering said, The Christ of God

Don't you think that this is important enough of a quote that there should be 100% agreement between the three? Which version is correct? Are any of them accurate? Which have deletions and which have additions? Why would all three not include the most important part - "the Son of the living God"?

[MustafaMc]

You keep ignoring the question "Is Jesus Good?" I understand from your perspective that He is not God and that is what you answered me. But that still does not answer my question. "Is Jesus good?" It's just a simple yes or no.

I know of no sin or error that Jesus commited; however, I am in no position to judge whether any human being (including Jesus) was, is, or will be absolutely good.

[MustafaMc]

Whoever we thank we thank the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DThat's the only God we know.

You obviosly aren't from Mississippi because around here Christians say "Thank you, Jesus" or "Lord help me, Jesus".

Did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or David have any knowledge of Jesus being God incarnate before he was even born? Did Jesus cast Adam out of the Garden? Did Jesus tell Noah to build the ark? Did Jesus tell Abraham to kill his son? Did Jesus speak to Moses through the burning bush? Did Jesus pray to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

What about the Holy Spirit? Tell me a single instance where the Holy Spirit spoke to anyone. John 16:13 ...for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak... Now if the Holy Spirit is inferred here, why would he not speak of his own, but what he heard?

The One that Jesus prayed to is none other than the "Father" referred to in the NT, Who is the One God. It is as simple as that.

[Armand]

Peace john316,

Originally Posted by john316 View Post
You keep ignoring the question "Is Jesus Good?" I understand from your perspective that He is not God and that is what you answered me. But that still does not answer my question. "Is Jesus good?" It's just a simple yes or no.

It depends how you interpret the word "good". If you speak of morals and piety, then yes, Jesus was certainly a righteous servant of his Lord. I've seen this 'trick question' posed by Christians in the past.

I personally think Jesus was practicing modesty here, if the verse is reliable. One of the major problems Christians have is that they interpret their texts without Guidance; they do not and will not ever know the full context of the sayings and events in the Bible.

[barney]

Peace john316,



It depends how you interpret the word "good". If you speak of morals and piety, then yes, Jesus was certainly a righteous servant of his Lord. I've seen this 'trick question' posed by Christians in the past.

I personally think Jesus was practicing modesty here, if the verse is reliable. One of the major problems Christians have is that they interpret their texts without Guidance; they do not and will not ever know the full context of the sayings and events in the Bible.

Well, actually they get their Guidance from their Clergy, just as Muslims look to the scholars to interprete for them.

[Armand]

Greetings Armand

I have not really followed this thread, but I will try to comment briefly.

Yes, I believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully divine.
I suppose whether it 'violates God's oneness' depends on how God defines his oneness ...
We agree that there is only one God.
Do you think it would be outside his ability to be born man, if he so chose?

The dual nature of Jesus is a mystery. I don't think anybody can fully and clearly explain it.
People arrived at the conclusion that Jesus was human and divine by studying the scripture and discussing their findings.

Peace glo,

I'm not questioning the omnipotence of God. An all-powerful God is able to accomplish anything; the Qur'an does not reveal that the Lord cannot incarnate, rather it says that incarnation is contrary to the Majesty of God.

Getting back to my question. Was Jesus (whose physical body was made of flesh, blood and bones) created?

Now I acknowledge your belief that he, as God, was preexistent. But was his physicality uncreated?

Peace

[wth1257]

With all due respect mimicking Hitchens poor intelectual integrity is a profoundly poor idea, it is very good for selling books, but rarely will it stand up to scrutiney.

Though it is an ad hominem I would mention that it is strange that given this "clear" demonstration of what a violent fellow Jesus was the early Christians were markedly pacefist, in fact Christianity was a fairly non-violence crowed untill it's institutionalization in the Roman and Augustine, even then Christians have rarely interpreted any of these verses as inciting violence, though this is clearly not a logical proof, this should give pause, to say the least, to your claims.

Matthew 10:34
'Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth.'

The context of this verse, and this contextual meaning is so clear I am suprised you would use it. The verse is saying that he has not come to instill universal tranquility, but is imparting a message that will cause discontent, simply saying you have not come to bring a universal age of tranquility, as the Jews of the time would have expected, is not saying you intend to incur violence, never ONCE in the entire chapter does Jesus EVER command violence.

Matthew 10:34
'I have not come to bring peace but a sword.'

Sword represents the word of God, CLEARLY it is not refering to a physical weapon, hence Christ ordering Peter to put his sword away when the guards seized him.

Luke 12:49
'I have come to bring fire to the earth.'

clensing fire

Luke 12:49
'And how I wish it were blazing already
Luke 12:51
'Do you think I have come to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but hostility!'

Matthew 10:35
'I have come to set son against father...
Matthew 10:35
'...daughter against mother...'

Matthew 10:35
'...and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law
Luke 14:26
'If anyone does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple

These are all in the same vein.

With all due respect this is such a rediculous case it is difficult to articulate and simply haveing to refute this non-sense is highly annoying.

As a postscript to this, Jesus has himself tortured and killed in order to save Mankind from his own wrath.:enough!:

:raging:

[Armand]

Barney, did I ask you anything? (just joking :))

Well, actually they get their Guidance from their Clergy, just as Muslims look to the scholars to interprete for them.

But these scholars rely on the interpretation of the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and their descendants, as well as the great scholars of that time. In addition, the Qur'an gets extra support from hadiths. Christians on the other hand have nothing to rely upon in defense of their anagogy.

[wth1257]

Barney, did I ask you anything? (just joking :))



But these scholars rely on the interpretation of the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and their descendants, as well as the great scholars of that time. In addition, the Qur'an gets extra support from hadiths. Christians on the other hand have nothing to rely upon in defense of their anagogy.

Church Fathers

Something of their(or at least the oldest ones) equivalent of Hadiths

[barney]

Barney, did I ask you anything? (just joking :))



.

I just tend to pop my nose in now and then.


WTH, You can interprete the verses as you will, and sure, early christianity hadnt a great deal of violence, although Christianity found plenty to justify its aggression as time marched on.

The New testement is a pretty sound book as regards sending a message of peace. The problem is Jesus is God.
Yahweh/ Jehovah=Jesus.
So the man who played with the children and loved them so much was thirteen hundred years before sending bears to rip them to bits for laughing at Elisha, and one thousand five hundred years before that slaughtering newborns of a entire nation, fivehundred years prior to that wiped out the entire population of the earth bar one family and ten million animals on a boat, then had nearly eight million of them killed in the desert from polar bears to duck-billed platypuses. (Quite a lengthy task for a 600 year old man with just a stone axe).
A full 700 years before this, he was telling a guy on a hill to slaughter his own son to please him. This is apparently Jesus?

[wth1257]

I just tend to pop my nose in now and then.


WTH, You can interprete the verses as you will, and sure, early christianity hadnt a great deal of violence

It's not some subjective interpretation I pulled out of the air, it is the CLEAR and DISTINCT meaning of the verse in it's larger context, like all the lines around it. You claimed Jesus incited violence, not only do your presented verses fail to even have the meaning you tried to give them, you never got around to actually listing a place where Jesus demanded his followers inact violence on others.

although Christianity found plenty to justify its aggression as time marched on.

Utterly irrelivent, institutionalized Christianity commited plenty of atrocities, that dosen't give any merit to your claim, however.

The New testement is a pretty sound book as regards sending a message of peace. The problem is Jesus is God.
Yahweh/ Jehovah=Jesus.

In mainstream Christianity yes.

So the man who played with the children and loved them so much was thirteen hundred years before sending bears to rip them to bits for laughing at Elisha, and one thousand five hundred years before that slaughtering newborns of a entire nation, fivehundred years prior to that wiped out the entire population of the earth bar one family and ten million animals on a boat, then had nearly eight million of them killed in the desert from polar bears to duck-billed platypuses. (Quite a lengthy task for a 600 year old man with just a stone axe).
A full 700 years before this, he was telling a guy on a hill to slaughter his own son to please him. This is apparently Jesus?

Utter tangent and irrelivent.

You claimed that Jesus incited violence, not that God as portrayed in the OT commanded numerus atrocities.

I dislike bringing Hitchens up again however this is exactly his tatic, make an unfounded claim, then use slight of hand to slip out of it.

Did the God of the OT command atrocities? I'd certianly say yes
Did Jesus in the Gosple's incite violence? Absolutly not.

I'm concerned this post may sound harsh, I really don't intend to personally insult you or link you with Hitchens, I'm just sick of this argument being circulated in the popular discourse.

[john316]

I know of no sin or error that Jesus commited; however, I am in no position to judge whether any human being (including Jesus) was, is, or will be absolutely good.

What do you mean by absolutely good. You mean there is no way one could be absolutely perfect in nature just as God is perfect in nature. And have that nature of God?

[john316]

There are several groups that deny the deity of Christ. Four of the most common are: Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way International, Christadelphians and Unitarians. The most common arguments used by these groups, and some others that are not listed, are cited below. It is out of obedience to Jude 3 and love for the truth of God that this study has been presented. (The Christian worker should become familiar with the contents of this study. See 1 Pet. 3:15.)


[Before the following refutations are given, it is imperative that you know two basic truths about the Lord Jesus: (1) When a Christian says, "Jesus is God," he is NOT saying Jesus is the Father! Jesus is NOT the person of the Father, yet He is equal to the Father BY NATURE. In other words, Jesus is God BY NATURE, as are the Father and the Holy Spirit. (2) Jesus is both God BY NATURE and man. In other words, He is both true God AND true man. Jesus' humanity is shown in Heb. 2:14 and 1 Tim. 2:5.]



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OBJECTION #1. Jn. 14:28 reads, "... my Father is greater than I." If Jesus is equal to the Father, as the Trinity definition states, then why did Jesus say His Father was "greater" than He?

ANSWER: Jesus spoke these words after He humbled Himself and became a servant (Phil. 2:5-8). Furthermore, the word "greater" refers to OFFICE or POSITION and not NATURE! God is God because of His "NATURE" (Gal. 4:8). Jesus is saying in Jn. 14:28 that His Father has a "greater" OFFICE or POSITION than He does. This is how the word "greater" is used as clearly seen in Gen 41:40. That verse reads, "You [Joseph] shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I [Pharaoh] be GREATER than you," (NIV). Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by OFFICE or POSITION, but not NATURE. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph was the same, that is, human being. Similarly, the president of the USA is GREATER than we are, as far as OFFICE or POSITION is concerned, but certainly not by NATURE!



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OBJECTION #2. 1 Cor. 11:3 reads, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." If Christ has a "head," then He can't be God.

ANSWER: Does this show Jesus inferior to the Father by NATURE? If one will insist that it does, then to be consistent, he would have to say the same regarding the woman to the man! Though a wife is subject to her husband in the Lord, she is NOT inferior to him by nature. The same is true with the relationship between the Lord Jesus and the Father.



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OBJECTION #3. 1 Cor. 15:28 says, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." If Jesus is "subject" to the Father, He can't be God.

ANSWER: Again, this argument is similar to Arguments #1 and #2. This verse doesn't refer to NATURE either, but only to OFFICE or POSITION! In Lk. 2:51, the SAME GREEK WORD translated "subject" is found. No one would say that Jesus was inferior BY NATURE to Joseph and Mary from Lk. 2:51, which would be the natural conclusion if the word "subject" refers to NATURE! Likewise, Jesus is NOT inferior BY NATURE to the Father, since He is God. See Jn. 1:1, Greek; Jn. 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1 and 1 Jn. 5:20.



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OBJECTION #4. Mk. 13:32 declares, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." If Jesus was God, then He would have had this knowledge.

ANSWER: Again, we must bear in mind that Jesus is true man besides true God. The Lord Jesus spoke these words when He was limited by His humanity and was relying upon the Father entirely (Acts 10:38; Jn. 12:49). After His resurrection, however, Jesus would have to be all-knowing, since He can be prayed to (Jn. 14:14, Greek; Acts 7:59; 9:14,21; 1 Cor. 1:2). In other words, if a group of Christians is praying to Jesus in Canada, Mexico and Japan at the same time, He would have to be all-knowing to know their requests! Also, since prayer is a form of worship, it would be idolatry to pray to Jesus unless He was and is God by NATURE. (If He wasn't God by NATURE, then the early Church was guilty of idolatry by praying to Jesus, which is IMPOSSIBLE!)



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OBJECTION #5. Lk. 18:19 reads, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.'" God is "good," but Jesus isn't. Therefore, Jesus isn't God.

ANSWER: If one would look closely at this verse, he should quickly notice that Jesus NEVER said that He Himself was NOT 'good'! He merely asked, "Why callest thou me good?" Jesus wanted to know "WHY," that's all! Furthermore, Jesus openly declared elsewhere that He Himself was the "GOOD shepherd" (Jn. 10:11). Psalm 23 declares YHWH as the "shepherd," but He isn't called the "GOOD" shepherd, the description Jesus reserved for Himself!



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OBJECTION #6. Jesus is shown in the Scriptures as being created in Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15; Prov. 8:22 and Psa. 2:7. If He was created, He can't be God, since God is eternal.

ANSWER: (A) Rev. 3:14 states that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." The word translated "beginning" is ARCHE in the Greek. It also means ORIGIN besides BEGINNING. Since ORIGIN and SOURCE are synonymous, we can now understand why this verse reads in the N. A. B. "the SOURCE of God's creation." This verse doesn't show Jesus is created, but that He is the Creator! After all, since Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created (Col. 1:16), how could He be part of His own creation?


(B) Col. 1:15 reports that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." Please notice that it does NOT say "first-created"! This word, "firstborn," has more than one possible meaning. If one would read Gen. 41:51,52; 48:17-19 and Jer. 31:9 he would see that it can mean PREEMINENT. That is how it is used in Col. 1:15 as the context reveals from verses 15 through 18. Jesus is PREEMINENT over creation because: (1) He created everything that was created, (2) ALL created things were created for Him, (3) He existed before ALL created things and (4) ALL created things are held together because of Him.


(C) Prov. 8:22 states that Wisdom was brought forth in the beginning. Since Jesus is called the "Wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24), He was created, according to the argument.

What one must decide is: IS THIS WISDOM MENTIONED IN PROV. 8 REFERRING TO JESUS, BEFORE HE CAME TO EARTH? According to Jn. 1:1,14, Jesus was called the "Word" before He came to earth, NOT Wisdom (or even "Michael" as some groups teach)!

Secondly, the chapter reveals Wisdom in verse 19 as the PROPER USE OF KNOWLEDGE as shown by Job 28:15. Therefore, the Wisdom of Prov. 8 is personified and not really a person at all!

Finally, since Jesus is the WISDOM OF GOD and the POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24), for one to say that He was created is to say that there was a point in time in the distant past when God existed WITHOUT Wisdom and Power, which is ludicrous!


(D) Psa. 2:7; Jn. 3:16; etc. state that Jesus was "begotten." Does this mean that Jesus had a beginning as we did, since we were begotten by our fathers and at that point we had our beginning? The answer to Psa. 2:7 is found in Acts 13:30-33. There we learn that this verse from Psalms refers to the resurrection of Christ! Secondly, the word translated "only begotten" in Jn. 3:16,18 and 1 Jn. 4:9 in regards to Christ is also used in Heb. 11:17 in regards to Isaac. Was Isaac the FIRST child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16. Was Isaac the ONLY child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16; 25:1,2. Was Isaac the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND son of Abraham? Yes! This is how this same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND Son to the Father, but NOT created. Micah 5:2 refers to Jesus the SAME WAY Psa. 93:2 refers to God. Jesus is "from everlasting" and therefore can't be part of creation. Since He isn't part of creation, then He must be God, since only God is eternal!



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OBJECTION #7. In the Bible, Jesus is NEVER called "God the Son," but instead "the Son of God." Therefore, He can't be God.

ANSWER: This argument has a trace of truth in it for the words, "God the Son," are NOT found in the Bible. However, when an "open" student of the Scriptures examines all the verses relevant to the deity of Christ, he will conclude that Jesus is both God and man. How can this be? It's possible the same way Jesus can be both shepherd and lamb and the high priest and sin offering at the same time! Concerning words NOT found in the Bible, the word, "Bible," isn't found in the Bible! Neither is the word "Millennium" found in the Bible, even though it is certainly taught in Rev. 20.



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OBJECTION #8. If Jesus is God, who was He praying to in the Garden, Himself?

ANSWER: This question stems from a misconception about HOW Christians believe Jesus is God. We believe Jesus is God BY NATURE. We do NOT believe Jesus is the person of the Father! He can NOT be the Father, since He prayed to the Father in Jn. 17! He certainly wasn't praying to Himself. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God by NATURE, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is only one true God by NATURE. See Gal. 4:8. The Trinity is NOT defined as three Gods in one, but instead three Persons in one God. God is the NATURE of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



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OBJECTION #9. If Jesus is God, then who ran the universe while He was dead for three days?

ANSWER: Again, this is no problem to answer when one understands that Jesus is NOT the person of the Father. The Father and the Son are two separate and distinct personalities.



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OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.



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OBJECTION #11. Jesus can't be God, because He said that the Father was His God in Jn. 20:17.

ANSWER: Jesus said this as a man. This, however, doesn't change the clear evidence that shows Jesus is God! The Apostle Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God," Jn. 20:28. The Greek literally says, "The Lord of me and the God of me." Remember also that Thomas was a strict MONOtheistic Jew. Was the Apostle Thomas "in the truth?" Obviously he was. Was the Apostle Thomas part of the early church? Obviously he was. Therefore, the early church believed that Jesus is God. If you claim to believe and teach like the early church, then shouldn't you proclaim the same? Are you in the same "light" that the Apostles were in? Furthermore, the Father identifies Jesus as "God" in Heb. 1:8. Again, the Greek says, "the God." Certainly the Father knows the true identity of the Son. Also, Heb. 1:6 declares that "ALL the angels worship Him [Jesus]." Who do the angels worship, according to Rev. 19:10? According to Heb. 1:6, the angel of Rev. 19:10 WORSHIPS Jesus! In fact, Jesus' disciples WORSHIPED Him too (Matt. 28:9). Why do you think Jesus received this WORSHIP from His disciples? Are you following the example of the early disciples regarding this? Did you know it would have been idolatry for those early disciples, who were "in the truth" to worship Jesus, unless He was God?

[barney]

It's not some subjective interpretation I pulled out of the air, it is the CLEAR and DISTINCT meaning of the verse in it's larger context, like all the lines around it. You claimed Jesus incited violence, not only do your presented verses fail to even have the meaning you tried to give them, you never got around to actually listing a place where Jesus demanded his followers inact violence on others.



Utterly irrelivent, institutionalized Christianity commited plenty of atrocities, that dosen't give any merit to your claim, however.



In mainstream Christianity yes.



Utter tangent and irrelivent.

You claimed that Jesus incited violence, not that God as portrayed in the OT commanded numerus atrocities.

I dislike bringing Hitchens up again however this is exactly his tatic, make an unfounded claim, then use slight of hand to slip out of it.

Did the God of the OT command atrocities? I'd certianly say yes
Did Jesus in the Gosple's incite violence? Absolutly not.

I'm concerned this post may sound harsh, I really don't intend to personally insult you or link you with Hitchens, I'm just sick of this argument being circulated in the popular discourse.

I'm happy to be linked with Hitchins works, he's not my favorite theologian and i copy his smoking and drinking habits a bit too much, but no problems otherwise.
As regards Insults, again , i'm perfectly happy with people letting off steam.

To your main point.

Stating something is irrelevent when it directly focuses on the core of your main point is not a new tactic, but a rather clumsy avoidance.

You say that God committed atrocity. That Jesus did not.
I assume therefore that you beleive that Jesus and God are not one, but that Jesus is a seperate God from the Old testement God, even though he claimed to be the same. A Kinder, genteler, forgiving God who is not connected with the massive scale inhuman slaughtering, sacrifice and terror of the old one.

Where did your God come from? Why did he think he was yahweh or tell people that?

Your position is a new one to me. A Christian who beleives that a divine being-Jesus- is seperate from God.

[wth1257]

I'm happy to be linked with Hitchins works, he's not my favorite theologian and i copy his smoking and drinking habits a bit too much, but no problems otherwise.
As regards Insults, again , i'm perfectly happy with people letting off steam.

To your main point.

Stating something is irrelevent when it directly focuses on the core of your main point is not a new tactic, but a rather clumsy avoidance.

You say that God committed atrocity. That Jesus did not.
I assume therefore that you beleive that Jesus and God are not one, but that Jesus is a seperate God from the Old testement God, even though he claimed to be the same. A Kinder, genteler, forgiving God who is not connected with the massive scale inhuman slaughtering, sacrifice and terror of the old one.

Where did your God come from? Why did he think he was yahweh or tell people that?

Your position is a new one to me. A Christian who beleives that a divine being-Jesus- is seperate from God.

I don't think I ever claimed my argument was new:?

My only point was the Jesus, as portrayed in the Gosples, did not incite violence, nothing more and nothign less. The question of wether Jesus was God, and how to reconcile the seemingly contrary personalities are seperate issue, ones I have no position in arguing.

[barney]

I don't think I ever claimed my argument was new:?

My only point was the Jesus, as portrayed in the Gosples, did not incite violence, nothing more and nothign less. The question of wether Jesus was God, and how to reconcile the seemingly contrary personalities are seperate issue, ones I have no position in arguing.

God is Jesus. Jesus is God. They are the same entity. Jesus is God given form on earth.

God Incites and commits violence, on a scale never seen before or since in known history. Commanding populations to be exterminated, cities to be destroyed and Children to be stoned with stones till they are dead. He tears kids apart, scatters blood in a bun dance and commands genocide infanticide regicide homicide and anyothercide.

Jesus is however, despite being the same guy.....someone who dosnt incite violence.

Okey.
:skeleton:

[Armand]

Rev. 3:14 states that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." The word translated "beginning" is ARCHE in the Greek. It also means ORIGIN besides BEGINNING. Since ORIGIN and SOURCE are synonymous, we can now understand why this verse reads in the N. A. B. "the SOURCE of God's creation." This verse doesn't show Jesus is created, but that He is the Creator! After all, since Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created (Col. 1:16), how could He be part of His own creation?

This brings me right back to my original question. I will no longer be using the word Jesus for manifest reasons, I shall call him the Son of Mary (pbuh).

If the Son of Mary was the uncreated Creator, then what do you say of his physical body? You already acknowledge that he had an anatomy, and we all know that an anatomy is a created substance. If you use the duality argument again, it won't work. The Son of Mary was a corporeal entity composed of matter, which, in order to exist, must be created. You cannot worship what you see; for anything that your senses can perceive and your mind can conceptualize is not divine. Doing so would constitute idolatry.

A pantheist or panentheist can easily produce an equal argument in favour of his preferred doctrine. In their inability in explaining the transcendent separation line between God and nature, pantheists identify God with creation (matter) and believe that God is all and all is God. This is possible, they contend, given the infinity and incomprehensibility of the Divine. Incarnation therefore is inherently a pagan myth with a scent of pantheism.

The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is {2:117}

Anything existing within the universe had an origin - the Son of Mary was in his mother's womb and was given birth thereafter, meaning he was a part of the universe which makes him a material and temporal being. The bottom line here is if you believe the Son of Mary is God, then you must also accept that God had re-created Himself (in the person of the Christ) by giving Himself a form on earth. If He in fact did so, this creates serious theological implications; in this case He violated His own law of unity and singleness, even if He retains His position as the Father in simultaneousness. Incarnation is a long way away from true monotheism.

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. {5:17}

[MustafaMc]

You cannot worship what you see; for anything that your senses can perceive and your mind can conceptualize is not divine. Doing so would constitute idolatry.

Assalamu alaikum.

I fully agree with your post, but since Christians clearly worship the "Son of Mary", why do you think that Allah speaks favorably of them (and the Jews) as "People of the Book".

[wth1257]

God is Jesus. Jesus is God. They are the same entity. Jesus is God given form on earth.

God Incites and commits violence, on a scale never seen before or since in known history. Commanding populations to be exterminated, cities to be destroyed and Children to be stoned with stones till they are dead. He tears kids apart, scatters blood in a bun dance and commands genocide infanticide regicide homicide and anyothercide.

Jesus is however, despite being the same guy.....someone who dosnt incite violence.

Okey.
:skeleton:

all respect, your argument is silly.

Let's say most Hindu's in India beleived Ghandi was the reincarnation of a violent previous Indian empire.

Now, you come up and say, "Ghandi constantly commited atrocities aghinst smaller tribal populations", someone naturally says, "that's rediculious, Ghandi never ordered anyone to kill, never led an army, etc", you say, "no, Hindu's beleive he's the reincarnation of an indian warlord, so Ghandi was a very violent man"

Now, if the Hindu's were right about their metaphysical postulation you may have a point, if you are refering to Ghandi as the world knew him your argument is rediculious

You claimed JESUS incited violence, simply because some Christians believe that Jesus was the God of the OT as well dosen't mean that the Jesus of the Bible EVER incited violence.

[Armand]

Assalamu alaikum.

I fully agree with your post, but since Christians clearly worship the "Son of Mary", why do you think that Allah speaks favorably of them (and the Jews) as "People of the Book".

Wa alaikum as salam,

I'm not exactly certain as to why you posit this particular question? Perhaps it is the case that you are testing my ilm. Nonetheless I will give the benefit of the doubt and answer your question.

The Lord has named them People of the Book because they are just that: ahl ul kitaab; those who have received previous revelation. Their status is superior to those of the polytheists and the idolaters, mainly because these are not people of scripture.

[john316]

This brings me right back to my original question. I will no longer be using the word Jesus for manifest reasons, I shall call him the Son of Mary (pbuh).

If the Son of Mary was the uncreated Creator, then what do you say of his physical body? You already acknowledge that he had an anatomy, and we all know that an anatomy is a created substance. If you use the duality argument again, it won't work. The Son of Mary was a corporeal entity composed of matter, which, in order to exist, must be created. You cannot worship what you see; for anything that your senses can perceive and your mind can conceptualize is not divine. Doing so would constitute idolatry.

A pantheist or panentheist can easily produce an equal argument in favour of his preferred doctrine. In their inability in explaining the transcendent separation line between God and nature, pantheists identify God with creation (matter) and believe that God is all and all is God. This is possible, they contend, given the infinity and incomprehensibility of the Divine. Incarnation therefore is inherently a pagan myth with a scent of pantheism.

The originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is {2:117}

Anything existing within the universe had an origin - the Son of Mary was in his mother's womb and was given birth thereafter, meaning he was a part of the universe which makes him a material and temporal being. The bottom line here is if you believe the Son of Mary is God, then you must also accept that God had re-created Himself (in the person of the Christ) by giving Himself a form on earth. If He in fact did so, this creates serious theological implications; in this case He violated His own law of unity and singleness, even if He retains His position as the Father in simultaneousness. Incarnation is a long way away from true monotheism.

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. {5:17}

Philliapians 2 says he humbled himself and became one like His creation. What a meek and compassoinate creator?

[KAding]

Some sufis are also claiming that they and God become one through a concept of "Wahdatul Wujud"... if I'm not mistaken..... "Wahdatul Wujud" concept is banned in Malaysia.

How did they 'ban' such a concept? Are you in violation by talking about it here and now? :exhausted

[جوري]

I think they probably do mushrooms or LSD to experience that oneness not unlike some native american tribes.. it is good to ban drugs or at least their outcome no?

amusing.. I learn something new every day!

[aadil77]

You obviosly aren't from Mississippi because around here Christians say "Thank you, Jesus" or "Lord help me, Jesus".

Did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, or David have any knowledge of Jesus being God incarnate before he was even born? Did Jesus cast Adam out of the Garden? Did Jesus tell Noah to build the ark? Did Jesus tell Abraham to kill his son? Did Jesus speak to Moses through the burning bush? Did Jesus pray to himself in the Garden of Gethsemane?

What about the Holy Spirit? Tell me a single instance where the Holy Spirit spoke to anyone. John 16:13 ...for he shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak... Now if the Holy Spirit is inferred here, why would he not speak of his own, but what he heard?

The One that Jesus prayed to is none other than the "Father" referred to in the NT, Who is the One God. It is as simple as that.

Exactly, thats what happens when you take man for a God, when people go to such extents, they even forget the true Creator

[barney]

all respect, your argument is silly.

Let's say most Hindu's in India beleived Ghandi was the reincarnation of a violent previous Indian empire.

Now, you come up and say, "Ghandi constantly commited atrocities aghinst smaller tribal populations", someone naturally says, "that's rediculious, Ghandi never ordered anyone to kill, never led an army, etc", you say, "no, Hindu's beleive he's the reincarnation of an indian warlord, so Ghandi was a very violent man"

Now, if the Hindu's were right about their metaphysical postulation you may have a point, if you are refering to Ghandi as the world knew him your argument is rediculious

You claimed JESUS incited violence, simply because some Christians believe that Jesus was the God of the OT as well dosen't mean that the Jesus of the Bible EVER incited violence.

OK, you are hard work because instead of accepting an earlier premise or discarding it you reply with something about a social revolution and reincarnation of Indian warlords.
We are talking about Divinity and Theology here. If you had attempted to do a simile it bears no relevence to any known christian teaching about Unity/Trinity or even Divinity.

We are left with the following that can be summised from your posts.


You Know Yahweh/God is a intolerant atrocity-maker
You Beleive Jesus is God, Jesus is Lord, the Lord is your Saviour.
Jesus is an Reincarnation of God? Is that what your saying?
The Original God is Dead.
Jesus is not connected with the God of Abraham and Moses, other than being a reincarnation.
Jesus Is peaceful, All that nasty stuff he said is simply hyperbole, because Deitys talk in a hyperbolic way,and like using words like "And it came to pass! and Behold!" All stuff like that that dosnt fit in with the bits of message you like, can be squinted at and have tangled quasi-theological explainations.
Jesus knew about the Old God and supported all his decisions, agreed with his prophets but because he wasnt the same God, was free of all sin.
(Kinda like me Coming back in a new life as Hitler's reincarnation. I know about him , and agree with his lovely ideas and actions. But I'm not him, even when I start telling everyone that I'm bringing the world not peace but a Panzer Division).

The seperate God-thingy has been created by itself,then created the world millions of years before it created itself retroactively, including populating it with people for another totally seperate God to wipe out and punish.

Seriously dude. I would get all your stuff down on paper quick. It sounds like you might have found the next new religion! Get out there and preach it. Theres probably a few hundred who will go for it, thats all ya need to get started. Try the poor and downtrodden first and offer them some of the good stuff, Jam tommorow in heaven, 15% of all donations today.
I'm Deadly serious. You could go far with this thing. Get the party started!

If you need a hand working out the loose ends Give us a shout, Ive done it before and would be happy to help.

[wth1257]

OK, you are hard work because instead of accepting an earlier premise or discarding it you reply with something about a social revolution and reincarnation of Indian warlords.

It's called "Refutation by Logical Analogy"

The claim about Ghandi had the same logical structure as your argument, just applied to a different situation, one that showed it's logical flaw.

We are talking about Divinity and Theology here. If you had attempted to do a simile it bears no relevence to any known christian teaching about Unity/Trinity or even Divinity.

I have never argued that Jesus was or wasen't God/son of God/Prophet, anything else.

I have ONLY argued that Jesus, as recorded in the four Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luck, and John, never incited violence.

We are left with the following that can be summised from your posts.

no, but let's go through them

You Know Yahweh/God is a intolerant atrocity-maker

I don't know that, I know that the OT reports God ordering numerous things I would consider atrocities

You Beleive Jesus is God, Jesus is Lord, the Lord is your Saviour.

Never said any such thing

Jesus is an Reincarnation of God? Is that what your saying?

no

The Original God is Dead.

I think you have me confused with Nietzsche:-[

Jesus is not connected with the God of Abraham and Moses, other than being a reincarnation.

NEVER SAID JESUS WAS A REINCARNATION:raging:

I don't beleive in reincarnation

I said the question of how the OT portrayes God is IRRELIVENT to the issue of Weather Jesus in the Gosples incited violence, IF he were God, then perhapse, however

a-that antecedent has not been proven
b-that is a seperate issue
c-Even IF he were, and therefore in the past DID command atrocities, then Gosples STILL do not recored him commanding his followers to violence

Jesus Is peaceful

correct

All that nasty stuff he said is simply hyperbole

The only time I used the word hyperbole was in relation to your claim that Jesus incited violence, I never claimed Jesus used hyperbole

because Deitys talk in a hyperbolic way

Never said he was a Deity

and like using words like "And it came to pass! and Behold!"

:?

All stuff like that that dosnt fit in with the bits of message you like, can be squinted at and have tangled quasi-theological explainations.

Not a quasi theological explication

I made note of the historical interpetation, and the clear contextual meaning of the verse in the larger chapter.

Jesus knew about the Old God and supported all his decisions

Never said that

agreed with his prophets but because he wasnt the same God, was free of all sin.

Never said that

(Kinda like me Coming back in a new life as Hitler's reincarnation. I know about him , and agree with his lovely ideas and actions. But I'm not him, even when I start telling everyone that I'm bringing the world not peace but a Panzer Division)

:?

poor analogy

The seperate God-thingy has been created by itself,then created the world millions of years before it created itself retroactively, including populating it with people for another totally seperate God to wipe out and punish.

:?:?:?:?:?:?

Seriously dude. I would get all your stuff down on paper quick. It sounds like you might have found the next new religion!

Sounds like you have confused me with someone else

Get out there and preach it. Theres probably a few hundred who will go for it, thats all ya need to get started. Try the poor and downtrodden first and offer them some of the good stuff, Jam tommorow in heaven, 15% of all donations today.
I'm Deadly serious. You could go far with this thing. Get the party started!

If you need a hand working out the loose ends Give us a shout, Ive done it before and would be happy to help.

Well, if you haden't falsely like 10 claims to me perhapse it woulden't be so confusing:statisfie

[barney]

Simply put, your replying a load of "no"'s and no explainations.
You might not have said some of the above. Jesus did. Have you got a different scripture you follow? Jesus diddnt say anything at all. His "apostles" said that he said things.

Right, you say that the Jesus of the Bible was Peaceful.
I say the Jesus of the Bible was Mostly peaceful...with a few off days of inciting violence and I give examples.
You say this is Irelevent. Which is one of the very poorest of debate-avoidance tools, equivilent to simple capitulation.

The Ghandi analogy had no structure at all to my arguement, it was light years off course. I've tried to bring it back in two ways. Pointing out that we are actually talking about theology and making a equally silly example which you reject as being poor, but your analogy was fine. And still no explaination why.

Despite my love of Lolcats, if you cant tackle some very simple ideas, i'll have to acknowlage that sometimes, cohesion of thought is simply not everyones forte, and leave this here.
In order to argue Jesus is not a violent raging mass murderer, you must seperate him from the being that did all these atrocitys.

Are you or are you not claiming that Jesus is God? Yes /No.


If not, then who do you say Jesus is?

With a basis of beleif to work from, we might actually start this discussion going.

[wth1257]

Simply put, your replying a load of "no"'s and no explainations.

I have provided a cohesive argument, you attributed about a dozen claims to me I never made, I don't have time to individualy clarify each point, I told you which one's I didn't agrea with and tried to explain at a few points.

You might not have said some of the above. Jesus did.

correct.

Right, you say that the Jesus of the Bible was Peaceful.

correct

I say the Jesus of the Bible was Mostly peaceful...with a few off days of inciting violence and I give examples.

not really my friend, you quote mined the Gosples ripping some lines from context.

You say this is Irelevent.

No, I said that you had misrepresented the ines by ripping them from the context, both historical, theological, and textual, and trying to make a silly claim.

Which is one of the very poorest of debate-avoidance tools, equivilent to simple capitulation.

I don't think I avoided the issue, I have a historical and textual analysis of the claims:?

The Ghandi analogy had no structure at all to my arguement, it was light years off course. I've tried to bring it back in two ways. Pointing out that we are actually talking about theology and making a equally silly example which you reject as being poor, but your analogy was fine. And still no explaination why.

Alright, reject the analogy, it dosen't make the argument any better:?

Despite my love of Lolcats, if you cant tackle some very simple ideas, i'll have to acknowlage that sometimes, cohesion of thought is simply not everyones forte, and leave this here.
In order to argue Jesus is not a violent raging mass murderer, you must seperate him from the being that did all these atrocitys.

No.

You claimed Jesus commanded violence, to support this you cited verses from the Gospels, due to that I assumed you were claiming that Jesus IN THE GOSPELS, incited violence. As in there were specific instances IN THE GOSPELS of Jesus inciting violence.

nothing more nothing less.

Are you or are you not claiming that Jesus is God? Yes /No.
You are catholic yep? Jesus being God is pretty fundamental to the faith.

Where did I say I AM Catholic? I am studying religion.

I NEVER claimed Jesus was God

If not, then who do you say Jesus is?

With a basis of beleif to work from, we might actually start this discussion going.

:?

[barney]

Right ho. Public apology time.

For some reason I had you flagged as a christian.
I was getting utterly confused and a bit incredulous that you diddnt think Jesus was God or that he was your lordnsaviourinsureandcertainhopeforlifeeverlasting ,T.M.

All makes total sense now that I see your an aggy like me, and hence not required to beleive that Jesus was God. :D

Meh.

Apologies again, and for anyone else. Top tips
1)To assume makes an ass out of yourself.
2)Dont troll forums when tired.
3) Read Peoples Tags before trying to get them to accept Jesus!

However this has brought up some things for the christians. Was Jesus Good? If he's the son of and the divine creation of and the manifestation of Yahweh, how can he be classed as "good:"

[wth1257]

Right ho. Public apology time.

For some reason I had you flagged as a christian.
I was getting utterly confused and a bit incredulous that you diddnt think Jesus was God or that he was your lordnsaviourinsureandcertainhopeforlifeeverlasting ,T.M.

All makes total sense now that I see your an aggy like me, and hence not required to beleive that Jesus was God. :D

Meh.

Apologies again, and for anyone else. Top tips
1)To assume makes an ass out of yourself.
2)Dont troll forums when tired.
3) Read Peoples Tags before trying to get them to accept Jesus!

However this has brought up some things for the christians. Was Jesus Good? If he's the son of and the divine creation of and the manifestation of Yahweh, how can he be classed as "good:"

:raging::raging::raging:HOW DARE YOU MAKE A MISTAKE!!!:raging::raging::raging:

It happens:p

"3) Read Peoples Tags before trying to get them to accept Jesus!"

Very funny apology:D

[MustafaMc]

Wa alaikum as salam,

I'm not exactly certain as to why you posit this particular question? Perhaps it is the case that you are testing my ilm. Nonetheless I will give the benefit of the doubt and answer your question.

The Lord has named them People of the Book because they are just that: ahl ul kitaab; those who have received previous revelation. Their status is superior to those of the polytheists and the idolaters, mainly because these are not people of scripture.

Thank you for answering my question.

[Grace Seeker]

Anything existing within the universe had an origin - the Son of Mary was in his mother's womb and was given birth thereafter, meaning he was a part of the universe which makes him a material and temporal being.

Materially this would indeed be true.

The bottom line here is if you believe the Son of Mary is God, then you must also accept that God had re-created Himself (in the person of the Christ) by giving Himself a form on earth.

I would prefer the term "incarnated" himself, for "re-created" implies something different -- that God ceased to exist as God or that he has a new beginning. That is not what happened in the incarnation when God revealed himself to humankind in the flesh in the same way you might put on a clothing.

If He in fact did so, this creates serious theological implications;

You are correct. Very much so. In fact discussion of the hypostatic union of Jesus two natures was one of the issues that the early church was forced to wrestle with.

in this case He violated His own law of unity and singleness, even if He retains His position as the Father in simultaneousness.

I don't see this. It would be true if God had not always been, from before the act of creation, a God who existed in Trinity. But we don't believe that God's nature changed in the incarnation of Jesus and we do believe there are hints of this understanding of the ONE God existing in muti-unity even before he spoke to Moses. This was not as foreign to the Jews of Moses or David's day as many today seem to think.

Incarnation is a long way away from true monotheism.

Well, I agree that you understanding of it is, but your understanding of what took place in the incarnation and mine seem to be radically different. My understanding leaves monotheism fully intact.

They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. {5:17}

Hey, that's close to a line I delivered in my sermon on Trinity Sunday. Let me lift it out of context for you. Isolated from the rest of my sermon you might even agree with it, for I said, "Jesus is not God." That indeed was the complete sentence without any equivocation. Piqued your interest any?

[MustafaMc]

The bottom line here is if you believe the Son of Mary is God, then you must also accept that God had re-created Himself (in the person of the Christ) by giving Himself a form on earth. If He in fact did so, this creates serious theological implications; in this case He violated His own law of unity and singleness, even if He retains His position as the Father in simultaneousness. Incarnation is a long way away from true monotheism.

To our Christian brethren:

In what form did the Son of Mary exist prior to being an embryo in Mary's womb. We can relate to his changing form from embryo to his ascension to Heaven. As he sits at the right hand of the Father, what form does he take? Is it the pre-birth, the regular human, the transfigured human or another form. When he returns to earth what form will he take?

If God become a man, did all of Him enter that form or only a portion of Him with the rest existing separately? How can God pray to Himself? How can He have two conflicting Wills at the same time with one submitting to the Other? How can God in the flesh ask the rest of Himself why He forsake Himself on the cross?

[MustafaMc]

I would prefer the term "incarnated" himself, for "re-created" implies something different -- that God ceased to exist as God or that he has a new beginning. That is not what happened in the incarnation when God revealed himself to humankind in the flesh in the same way you might put on a clothing.

Would this be analogous to God speaking to Moses through the burning bush?

Well, I agree that you understanding of it is, but your understanding of what took place in the incarnation and mine seem to be radically different. My understanding leaves monotheism fully intact.

As I posted above, did all of God incarnate as Jesus or just a portion with the rest residing elsewhere?

[Keltoi]

Would this be analogous to God speaking to Moses through the burning bush?As I posted above, did all of God incarnate as Jesus or just a portion with the rest residing elsewhere?

This seems to be a recurring idea from the Muslim point of view. Did God put "all of Himself" in Jesus or just a part? From the Christian perspective that question doesn't really make sense. It is putting a limitation on God's ability to manifest, as if He is made up of some physical substance that can run dry.

I know that isn't what you mean to suggest, but that question assumes a limitation of substance. Early Christian theologians described it as water from a fountain or a ray of light from the sun. God took a human form on Earth because He willed it to be so. No part of Him was missing or dried up as a result.

[Grace Seeker]

Would this be analogous to God speaking to Moses through the burning bush? As I posted above, did all of God incarnate as Jesus or just a portion with the rest residing elsewhere?

As I best understand it, the burning bush would be a theophany. In other words God was truly present making himself known, but he wasn't the bush, he was using the bush. And I think this next will help us with the second part of your question.

God wasn't just in the bush. It isn't like God was not also all the other places and doing all the other things that God always is and does. So, too, when God was incarnate in Jesus Christ, God wasn't present in Jesus and not still and at the same time also in all the other place and doing all the other things that God always is and does. Yet, it would also be wrong to think that we can divide God into parts (yes, Christian language about the Trinity has a problem with appearing to do this -- that's a problem with our language not God though) and say that a part of him was in the bush. But we do have Paul's words to us regarding the Christ that "in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (Colossians 2:9).


As for the questions you asked in your other post above, I have asked some of them myself, and can't claim to have arrived at a satisfactory answer. Does Jesus physically reside at the right hand of God? Well, we have plenty of biblical testimony to this. (See Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56, Romans 8:34, Colossian 3:1, Hebrews 10:12.) Yet, I am struck by how much of the Bible is metaphor as well. So, are these passages metaphor, especially given that Jesus himself declares, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)? Or are these passages showing us a physical manifestation/expression of a spiritual reality? Or are these passages simply showing inherent contradictions within scripture itself? Well, if they were all from one writer (like all from Paul) we might say that he was in error, but we have at least 4 different writers involved saying the same basic thing, so I think that rules out that they are wrong in referring to Jesus at the right hand of God. Might it be that John (a single voice) is wrong and misquoted Jesus? Perhaps God really isn't spirit? Even a casual reading of the Bible shows that to be the basic understanding of God throughout, Old Testament, New Testament, even those who speak of Jesus at the right hand of God. So, that leaves me with the understanding that these writers are using metaphor to speak of mysteries that are beyond full explanation. And I have to accept that.

I don't know if Jesus is in a physical body someplace, but I personally don't think so. I think that he has a spiritual body, like Paul speaks of the rest of us humans being raised with in 1 Corinthians 15. So, I think that means Stephen's experience of seeing Jesus standing at the right hand of God (Acts 7:55-56) was also a theophany, just like Moses' burning bush. But just as after his resurrection Jesus assumed a physical body, yet completely different from our physicall bodies for it could pass through walls (John 20:19 & 26), I assume that Jesus will return in physical body. Will the body look like the one that the disciples became accustomed to on earth, or will it look like the one that John saw in his vision of Christ in heaven

dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. (Revelation 1:13-16)

It is primarily speculation, but based on Revelation 19, I think more likely in a body like what John saw in his vision.

Then I saw Heaven open wide—and oh! a white horse and its Rider. The Rider, named Faithful and True, judges and makes war in pure righteousness. His eyes are a blaze of fire, on his head many crowns. He has a Name inscribed that's known only to himself. He is dressed in a robe soaked with blood, and he is addressed as "Word of God." The armies of Heaven, mounted on white horses and dressed in dazzling white linen, follow him. A sharp sword comes out of his mouth so he can subdue the nations, then rule them with a rod of iron. He treads the winepress of the raging wrath of God, the Sovereign-Strong. On his robe and thigh is written

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

(Revelation 19:11-16)

As to Jesus' pre-incarnate appearance or form, again we are not told. But first, I would agree with those who have said that he wasn't Jesus. Jesus as a human being did not come into existence until his conception in Mary's womb. What/who was in existence prior to the incarnation was not Jesus but the infinite God. And that God included all three persons of his singluar being. So, I suspect this 2nd person of the divine Trinity (using the term "person" as the ancient Greeks did meaning persona, NOT as modern thinkers do meaning a separate individual) was spirit simply because God is spirit.

Sorry, I have to interrupt my own thought with an aside---
I wonder if part of the problem that we Christians have in explaining this to Muslims is because we have different understanding of when humanity begins? What I mean is I remember someone telling me once that Muslims believe that God has created each of us already before we are born and that we exist in heaven (or someplace, like in storage) until the phyical body is conceived. So, rather than creating the person by the union of egg and sperm cells and at that time giving it a soul, as if continuing to create ex nihlio, that the Muslim understanding is that we already were created back in the beginning and God merely implants the person into the mother's womb. I wonder if this is part of why the idea of the incarnation leads Muslims to think that God must have likewise created Jesus back at the beginning as a seperate being?


Anyway, Christians understand that God is now who he has always been. And that was just as true when Jesus was on earth, the only difference was the manner in which he revealed himself to us by also incarnating himself (i.e., putting on flesh). There is no real difference in the nature of who God is, it is only our knowledge of him that is better informed now than before, because of how effective Jesus was in making God's self known to us.

[barney]

Id like to address all my earlier woffling to an actual christian.

Why did God suddenly develop a completly different personality. What happened to the Kidslaughtering and the city destroying?

Normaly when somebody does that the stock question is "Hey...did they get religion?"

Do you think Jesus was the same entity that tore apart babies? Why did he suddenly mellow that side of him out into a bit of sword-rattling, property destroying and anti-family values?

[Armand]

Thank you for answering my question.

You're welcome.

Hey, I received your PM, but I'm not allowed to send or reply to PM until I have 50 posts. I am far, far from being knowledgeable. Ironically, the reason I said that was because I thought the exact same of you! But yeah I was like, uh oh, they're testing my knowledge (or the lack thereof). :)

Wa salaam

[Armand]

Peace Grace Seeker, and thank you for taking time to kindly peruse and reply to my post,

I would prefer the term "incarnated" himself, for "re-created" implies something different -- that God ceased to exist as God or that he has a new beginning. That is not what happened in the incarnation when God revealed himself to humankind in the flesh in the same way you might put on a clothing.

Fair enough. I will try and clarify my statement below.

I don't see this. It would be true if God had not always been, from before the act of creation, a God who existed in Trinity. But we don't believe that God's nature changed in the incarnation of Jesus and we do believe there are hints of this understanding of the ONE God existing in muti-unity even before he spoke to Moses. This was not as foreign to the Jews of Moses or David's day as many today seem to think.

I wasn't alluding to a change in nature. Would you like to share with us a few of these "hints", as you say, of God's "multi-unity" from the Old Testament?

Hey, that's close to a line I delivered in my sermon on Trinity Sunday. Let me lift it out of context for you. Isolated from the rest of my sermon you might even agree with it, for I said, "Jesus is not God." That indeed was the complete sentence without any equivocation. Piqued your interest any?

I'm not exactly certain what you are implying here by putting "out of context" in bold in your response to a verse I cited from the Qur'an where the Lord reprimands Christians for their idolatry.

As promised, allow me to expound on my questions regarding the nature of Christ. Jesus' physical body was created, I'm sure you would agree?

Your claim to salvation through the blood of Christ (pbuh) is most amusing when you consider the fact that his blood was created by God. On what grounds does the Vicarious Atonement stand in the light of this?

Peace and Guidance,

Armand

[glo]

Id like to address all my earlier woffling to an actual christian.

Why did God suddenly develop a completly different personality. What happened to the Kidslaughtering and the city destroying?

Normaly when somebody does that the stock question is "Hey...did they get religion?"

Do you think Jesus was the same entity that tore apart babies? Why did he suddenly mellow that side of him out into a bit of sword-rattling, property destroying and anti-family values?

Hi Barney

I like your questions the best!
I may not always get round to replying, but they always make me think ... :)

Some people seem to think that “the God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath while the God of the New Testament is a God of love”, and your thinking seems to be along the same lines ...

Most Christians will tell you that God's nature (or 'personality', as you put it) does not change, and that his judgment and his love are presented in both the OT and the NT.
I am copying this text from a Christian site, to save myself writing it all out. (I have been told not to post links to Christian websites, so I cannot post the actual link)

For example, throughout the Old Testament, God is declared to be “merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth” (Exodus 34:6; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 4:31; Nehemiah 9:17; Psalm 86:5; Psalm 86:15; Psalm 108:4; Psalm 145:8; Joel 2:13). Yet in the New Testament, God’s loving-kindness and mercy are manifested even more fully through the fact that “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). Throughout the Old Testament, we also see God dealing with Israel much the same way a loving father deals with a child. When they willfully sinned against Him and began to worship idols, God would chastise them, yet each and every time He would deliver them once they had repented of their idolatry. This is much the same way that we see God dealing with Christians in the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 12:6 tells us that “For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives."

Certainly Christians believe that Jesus has existed since the beginning of time - so in that sense, yes, he is the same entity as the God of the OT.

But I expect your actual question is of a different nature:
Why is there so much blood-shed and slaughter in the OT, when Jesus seems to present a much more peaceful image?

You are not the first to ask that question.
Indeed some people at Jesus' time thought similarly: they expected that Jesus had come to overthrow the Roman rule and make Israel the powerful nation again, which it once was ... and they were very disappointed when he didn't!

I have no authoritative answer to your question, only my own thoughts. (Perhaps somebody else can add to this and/or correct me)

God is the one and only God he has ever been, and he always will be. He does not change!
But that does not mean that he does not speak to people differently throughout the ages.

I guess that's where Judaism and Christianity may be different from Islam. Whereas Islam believes that God's message has always been the same to all the prophets, the Bible/Torah seems to say otherwise.
According to the Bible/Torah each convenant which God made with his prophets was different. The convenants did not contradict each other, but built onto each other, to gradually reveal God's relationship with and purpose for his people ...

The Israelites were an expanding warring desert tribe, fighting for their survival.
At Jesus' time the situation had changed.

A question I always ask myself is how Jewish thinking has changed over the millenia. After all, they don't claim that Jews brought a new era and covenant ... and yet, they don't advocate the slaughter of children and destruction of entire cities (I am aware that I am opening a HUGE way here for debate around the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. :X That is not what I mean. I am speaking about Jews across the world as a religious group, not the political and secular state of Israel!)
As I understand Judaism has always had a tradition of reading and studying Torah, and discussing it in the light of the present time ... therefore the human understanding of God is forever evolving.

In that sense it is not God who is changing, but our understanding of him. That makes sense to me ...

Now I am waffling too ... so I'll leave it at that!
You really bring our the philosopher in me, Barney! :D

Oh, before I go, can you explain what you mean by 'God's anti-family values'? Ta muchly. :)

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Actually glo, I was going to say something along the very same lines as your closing thoughts. People tend to point to Jesus' words about love and think that because they see a warring God in the OT and a loving God in the NT that OT and NT are two different gods. But look at the Jews. One could never accuse the Jews of having 2 different gods, yet it seems that the God whom Jews worship today isn't any more warring than the God that Jesus talked about. So, it isn't about OT and NT, because the Jews don't have them, they just have one Bible, what we Christians tend to call the Old Testament. Yet this OT God is just a loving as the NT God after all. In other words it is a false dichotomy.

Well, then from whence does the apparent difference come? If not from God, then from people. People who progressively grew to understand God better and to interpret his actions better and understand his true involvement in the world better.

While there are some Christians (and I suppose some Jews) who believe that the Bible was basically dictated, that is not the dominate view held by most.

My own understanding (I will not suggest that it is held by others, though it might be) is that, in contrast to the Qur'an, the Bible was written by inspired people, but their own humanness does become a filter, only rarely do we have the actual words that God (or even Jesus) spoke. What we predominately have are the inspired understandings of God filter by human beings who were very much also conduits of their own personal experiences and prejudices. I think as they came to reflect more on their experience with God, they learned that while they might have at one time perceived God to be acting in judgment with every victory or defeat as if it were a referendum on their righteousness, the reality was closer to what Jesus taught that the rain falls on both the righteous and unrighteous. God didn't change. His word didn't change. But our perceptions of him and our interpretations of his word have.

And then you add Jesus to the mix, and we see that he often takes ideas that where commonly accepted in his day, interpretations of passages of the Tanakh that had come to be accepted standards and he stands them on their head show that God wanted us to see something different in those passages than we got out of them.

Thus I suggest to you that God has in fact always been predominately a loving God, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast mercy. We see this even in the very beginning, for Adam and Eve, though kicked out of the garden and provided for by God who clothes them and makes sure they are able to continue to feed themselves from the abundance of the earth (even if it is going to take more work than before). And he continues in saving remnants of people even when they are so bad (as in the days of Noah or the community in which Lot lived) as to deserve judgment. Read that way, the story of even the OT is of a loving God who seeks to save and redeem his people, and we see that ultimately happening in the sending of the Messiah to bring us back to God.

[gang4]

...
While there are some Christians (and I suppose some Jews) who believe that the Bible was basically dictated, that is not the dominate view held by most.

My own understanding (I will not suggest that it is held by others, though it might be) is that, in contrast to the Qur'an, the Bible was written by inspired people, but their own humanness does become a filter, only rarely do we have the actual words that God (or even Jesus) spoke. What we predominately have are the inspired understandings of God filter by human beings who were very much also conduits of their own personal experiences and prejudices. I think as they came to reflect more on their experience with God, they learned that while they might have at one time perceived God to be acting in judgment with every victory or defeat as if it were a referendum on their righteousness, the reality was closer to what Jesus taught that the rain falls on both the righteous and unrighteous. God didn't change. His word didn't change. But our perceptions of him and our interpretations of his word have.

And then you add Jesus to the mix, and we see that he often takes ideas that where commonly accepted in his day, interpretations of passages of the Tanakh that had come to be accepted standards and he stands them on their head show that God wanted us to see something different in those passages than we got out of them.
...

wow..http://www.islamicboard.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
Thumbs up

respect for your honesty...

...Among the People of the Book are some who display honesty...

[MustafaMc]

This seems to be a recurring idea from the Muslim point of view. Did God put "all of Himself" in Jesus or just a part? From the Christian perspective that question doesn't really make sense. It is putting a limitation on God's ability to manifest, as if He is made up of some physical substance that can run dry.

I understand your perspective that it appears we are putting limitations on God's abilities to become flesh, but it is more I think an inability to comprehend that the Almighty could become part of His creation. In Islam, we don't have a concept of Allah being Omnipresent - except in His Knowledge. My understanding is that He is closer to us than our juglar vein because He knows our innermost thoughts and intentions. Ayat Kursi (Quran 2:255) explains our fundamental beliefs about Allah that better explains how Allah is distinct from His creation.

I know that isn't what you mean to suggest, but that question assumes a limitation of substance. Early Christian theologians described it as water from a fountain or a ray of light from the sun. God took a human form on Earth because He willed it to be so. No part of Him was missing or dried up as a result.

Part of our difficulties is in trying to define the undefinable and in Islam we err when we use metaphors and analogies to try to do so. The best that we have is an ayat about lamp in a niche, but I don't have the Alim software with me to look it up. Perhaps, another Muslim can quote this ayat for me.

[MustafaMc]

Thank you for your patience and thoroughness of reply.

As I best understand it, the burning bush would be a theophany. In other words God was truly present making himself known, but he wasn't the bush, he was using the bush. And I think this next will help us with the second part of your question.

God wasn't just in the bush. It isn't like God was not also all the other places and doing all the other things that God always is and does.

This is one of the things that I don't understand, but I agree that God was not confined to the burning bush when speaking to Moses. Perhaps, it was a hologram kind of thing that He temporarily created for the purpose of communicating with Moses through a physical medium. ...and Allah knows best.

So, too, when God was incarnate in Jesus Christ, God wasn't present in Jesus and not still and at the same time also in all the other place and doing all the other things that God always is and does. Yet, it would also be wrong to think that we can divide God into parts.

...but that does not explain Jesus praying to the Father and having a different will than the Father in that prayer in Gethsemane.

As for the questions you asked in your other post above, I have asked some of them myself, and can't claim to have arrived at a satisfactory answer. Does Jesus physically reside at the right hand of God? Well, we have plenty of biblical testimony to this. (See Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55-56, Romans 8:34, Colossian 3:1, Hebrews 10:12.)

In Islam we believe on Judgement Day, there will be people who receive their books in their left hands behind their back (dwell in Hell), those who receive their books in their right hands (dwell in Paradise) and those of the highest honor and are brought near to Allah. Could brought near be equivalent to at the right hand of?

Yet, I am struck by how much of the Bible is metaphor as well. So, are these passages metaphor, especially given that Jesus himself declares, "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24)? Or are these passages showing us a physical manifestation/expression of a spiritual reality? ... Perhaps God really isn't spirit? Even a casual reading of the Bible shows that to be the basic understanding of God throughout, Old Testament, New Testament, even those who speak of Jesus at the right hand of God. So, that leaves me with the understanding that these writers are using metaphor to speak of mysteries that are beyond full explanation. And I have to accept that.

Honestly, there is much that we can't comprehend and accept what limited understanding our respective Books convey to us. To say that God is or is not a spirit is impossible to say - for one thing can we even define what a spirit is?

I don't know if Jesus is in a physical body someplace, but I personally don't think so. I think that he has a spiritual body, ... But just as after his resurrection Jesus assumed a physical body, yet completely different from our physicall bodies for it could pass through walls (John 20:19 & 26), I assume that Jesus will return in physical body.

...but didn't Jesus eat food and Thomas feel of his wounds? This would indicate a physical body.

Will the body look like the one that the disciples became accustomed to on earth, or will it look like the one that John saw in his vision of Christ in heaven ...It is primarily speculation, but based on Revelation 19, I think more likely in a body like what John saw in his vision.

...or could those descriptions also be metaphorical with a meaning beyond the physical description?

As to Jesus' pre-incarnate appearance or form, again we are not told. But first, I would agree with those who have said that he wasn't Jesus. Jesus as a human being did not come into existence until his conception in Mary's womb. What/who was in existence prior to the incarnation was not Jesus but the infinite God. And that God included all three persons of his singluar being. So, I suspect this 2nd person of the divine Trinity (using the term "person" as the ancient Greeks did meaning persona, NOT as modern thinkers do meaning a separate individual) was spirit simply because God is spirit.

...but, according to Christianity, for 33 years God would have not been identically the same as before Jesus' birth and life on earth or after his accension to His right hand.

Anyway, Christians understand that God is now who he has always been. And that was just as true when Jesus was on earth, the only difference was the manner in which he revealed himself to us by also incarnating himself (i.e., putting on flesh). There is no real difference in the nature of who God is, it is only our knowledge of him that is better informed now than before, because of how effective Jesus was in making God's self known to us.

Yes, I understand how you can say this and hopefully you can understand what I am trying to say.

[glo]

Actually glo, I was going to say something along the very same lines as your closing thoughts. People tend to point to Jesus' words about love and think that because they see a warring God in the OT and a loving God in the NT that OT and NT are two different gods. But look at the Jews. One could never accuse the Jews of having 2 different gods, yet it seems that the God whom Jews worship today isn't any more warring than the God that Jesus talked about. So, it isn't about OT and NT, because the Jews don't have them, they just have one Bible, what we Christians tend to call the Old Testament. Yet this OT God is just a loving as the NT God after all. In other words it is a false dichotomy.

[...]

What we predominately have are the inspired understandings of God filter by human beings who were very much also conduits of their own personal experiences and prejudices. I think as they came to reflect more on their experience with God, they learned that while they might have at one time perceived God to be acting in judgment with every victory or defeat as if it were a referendum on their righteousness, the reality was closer to what Jesus taught that the rain falls on both the righteous and unrighteous. God didn't change. His word didn't change. But our perceptions of him and our interpretations of his word have.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Grace Seeker.

I really have to learn more about Jewish theological thinking. As a Christian I could really learn from it.

Do you think the Bible is a chronological record of how people's understanding and perception of God matured and changed?

[MustafaMc]

I thought to look on islamicity.com for the ayat I was thinking of.

Quran 2:255 Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His Throne does extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Ayatal Kursi explains above that Allah does not require food for sustenance and He does not sleep or ever get tired. Since he owns whatever is in the heavens and on earth, He can't be tempted with what is already His. He knows all about us, but we know only of Him what He wills us to know, hence our difficulty in explaining His "Essence" to each other. His Throne is over the heavens and the earth, hence He is not bound within them.

The best description we have is that Allah is "the Light of the heavens and the earth," hence He surpasses our limited concepts of what a "spirit" is. Quran 24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. ...and yet even this is apparently put forth in parable form. And Allah knows best.

It is incomprehensible to a Muslim that Allah would take the form of a human, but this makes sense to Christians as the only means possible for them to be cleansed of sin. Is the Christian concept of Trinity and the Christian "plan of salvation" supported in the OT?

[Keltoi]

The OT and the NT describe two different covenants with God. Yes, Christians believe evidence of God acting as a Trinity can be found in the OT. Of course Christ is the third manifestation, so obviously the OT part of the equation centers on God as the Holy Spirit.

As for salvation, that is part of the new covenant with God brought about through Jesus Christ.

[جوري]

I think the Jews on board are best to answer that question ("plan of salvation" supported in the OT') .. 'Trinity can be found in the OT' is very questionable unless of course it is the christian rendering... or why else would they stay Jews?

:w:

[MustafaMc]

Yes, Christians believe evidence of God acting as a Trinity can be found in the OT. Of course Christ is the third manifestation, so obviously the OT part of the equation centers on God as the Holy Spirit.

...but in the OT there was no concept of Jesus as he had not yet been born. Was it the "Word" that became flesh such that the OT concept was Father, Word, and Holy Spirit (no I am not being facetious)? What OT verses would support this idea or an even better explanation of OT Trinity? Since I don't believe that God changes or evolves over time, there should be a continuity between OT and NT concepts of God even if there is a different covenant or relationship with man over time as we do grow collectively.

Edit: Perhaps the Christian understanding is that, although God does not change, He manifests or reveals of Himself differently to different peoples and times.

[Grace Seeker]

...but in the OT there was no concept of Jesus as he had not yet been born. Was it the "Word" that became flesh such that the OT concept was Father, Word, and Holy Spirit (no I am not being facetious)? What OT verses would support this idea or an even better explanation of OT Trinity? Since I don't believe that God changes or evolves over time, there should be a continuity between OT and NT concepts of God even if there is a different covenant or relationship with man over time as we do grow collectively.

Edit: Perhaps the Christian understanding is that, although God does not change, He manifests or reveals of Himself differently to different peoples and times.

That last part is called modalism, it is something that creeps into every discussion about the Trinity, but was declared to be a heresy from its inception. Nonetheless, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the vast majority of Christians are actually modalists without realizing it.


With Skye Ephémérine I would agree that Jews are perhaps best to explain any plan of salvation to be based on the OT alone. And my guess is that their answer both to that question and to any expression of the Trinity in the OT would be very different from that of a Christian. That doesn't preclude Christians from looking back and seeing what I call "hints" of the Trinity in the Tanakh. Just as some Muslims tend to see Muhammed in passages of the Bible, so Christians tend to see a triune God in the Tanakh. And just as I think that Muslims are reading things into the Bible that are not there when they make those great leaps, no doubt Jewish readers of the Tanakh would say the same to me.

But for me, to worship Jesus is no different than worshipping the God of the Old Testament. I can't give them all here, but let me cite one example:

Paul, the writer of Philippians, is saying about Jesus what Isaiah 45:23 ("But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.") says about the LORD. Now Isaiah is an OT passage and so clearly isn't talking about Jesus, but Paul then concludes that Jesus is LORD, that is, the same LORD God of the Old Testament.

Of course, this doesn't prove anything. It could be that it is merely Paul who is showing his views, and perhaps he is in error in drawing the conclusion that he does. Accept, that he isn't alone in doing so. We see Peter doing the very same thing in Acts 2, while Paul is still breathing out threats against Christians for this very act of equating Jesus with God.

But more than this, I would like to submit to everyone reading this thread that even the Jewish understanding of monotheism is NOT what many have been led to believe. Now some like to turn to Genesis 1:26 ("Let us make man in our image.") and point to the plural pronouns. For myself, I am quite willing to concede to scholarship that suggests this is nothing more than the royal "we" and give that passage little weight in my argument. However, I do think a little more weight needs to be given to the "angel of Yahweh" who appears to Abraham in Genesis 18 as perhaps a pre-incarnation appearance of the second person of the Trinity.

But, please, don't construe my statements as saying that there is a specific formulation of the Trinity present in the OT. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that things like the use of the plural term Elohim to speak about God along with the personification of ruach (God's Spirit) and dabar (God's Word) in various OT narratives simply point to both the concepts of plurality and relationality as being foundational in even the Hebrew understanding of the one God.*

Even before the birth of Jesus and the writings of the NT, there is an incipient pluraity in the one God expressed in terms of "Wisdom," "Word," and "Spirit," which serve as (semi-)personified agents of divine activity. In other words, even in monothesitic Judaism, the existence of personified agents, pointing to the idea of plurality in the one God, was NOT seen as a threat to monotheism.**

Some examples: Word, beginning from the first creation account (Genesis 1:1-2:4a) appears as the agent of God; it was through the Word (and Spirit) that creation was accomplished (Psalms 33:8-9), and the Word is able to accomplish its God-given purposes (Isaiah 55:10-11). Spirit, sometimes coupled with either Word or Wisdom brings about and sustains life (Genesis 1:2), sustaining all life (Genesis 1:2; Psalm 104:29-30).

In addition to these semi-personified agents of the one God, the Jewish Tanakh knows others, such as the name of Yahweh, especially in Deuteronomic theology. Note that the "name of Yahweh" dwells in the temple (Deuteronomy 12:5, 11, etc.) while, at the same time God is in heaven. (Deuteronomy 26:15). Still one more example is the "glory of God" that acts as an agent separately from, yet sent by, Yahweh -- the book of Ezekiel (especially 43:4-7) is a collection of prime examples.

Theologian Richard Bauckham (God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology in the New Testament) maintains that the early Jewish definition of God could include the person of the Son WITHOUT a violation of traditional monotheism. The key is to understand that even the highest angels or heavenly powers, while participating alongside God and sharing in God's rule over the earth, did NOT share in God's essence. God was not just at the top of a hierarchy of beings, God was/is a totally unique being, completely uncomparable in nature to any other. However, ruach and dabar do share God's essence, for they are a part of God. Thus, distinctions within the one God , such as between God's Word and God's Spirit, were not understood as compromising God's inherent unity. Therefore, Bauckham concludes: "The Second Temple Jewish understanding [that in operation in the first century] of the divine uniqueness...does NOT make distinctions within the divine identity inconceivable."


Sad to say, but I fear that many, on seeing this the length of this post, will either completely skip over it, or begin to critique it point by point from the top. If they do so, they will completely miss reading it in the context of what I am about to say next:

None of the above implies that there must be a Trinity. It just means that when early Christians (all Jews) began to try to make sense out of their experience in which they on the one hand had the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4 -- "Hear, O Israel: 'The LORD our God, the LORD is one'.") and on the other hand were experiencing God's presence in their lives through the Spirit at Pentecost, that they already had a framework within monotheistic Judaism in which they could conceive of this. As Wolfhart Pannenberg said, "Christian statements about the Son and Spirit take up questions which had already occupied Jewish thought concerning the essential transcendent reality of the one God and the modes of his manifestation" (Pannenberg, Systematic Theology).

The vivid personfications of Wisdom/Word and Spirit already present in the Tanakh, inasmuch as they were not only identified with God and God's divine activity but also (and paradoxically) at the same time distinguished from God, served to open up the way for 1st century Jews who were finding salvation to be anchored in God's Messiah and who were experiencing God's Spirit as interacting with them in their personal lives to recognize God as being tripersonal. I don't think they would have made that leap, for it is a big one, if these divine personifications and Father/Son language was not already present for them in their existing Bible.

No doubt today, Jews who have not had the same experience that these early Christ-following Jews had, would look at the same texts differently. But with both these things --the foreshadowings in scripture and their own experience-- it is possible for a Christian today to look back and see what was missed by those who lived the OT, that is the one and only God is indeed a multi-personal being who has always existed in inter-personal relationship within himself.

In many respects, in the older testament regarding God's covenantal relationship with humanity, many things are seen from Israel's attempt to project the Father's point of view; wheras, what we have in the newer testament is the church's attempt to project a portrayal of the Father from the Son's point of view.





*For a further discussion of this idea, see Ben Withington and Laura Ice, [u]The Shadow of the Almighty: Father, Son, and Spirit in Biblical Perspective; Robert Letham, The Holy Trinity In Scripture, History, Theology, and Worship; and Herman Bavinck, In the Beginning: Foundations of Creation Theology.

**For more detailed discussion of this, see Gerald O'Collins, Tripersonal God.

[MustafaMc]

Peace, GraceSeeker, thank you for the thorough answer to my questions. You and several other Christians have put forth good explantions for the Christian perspective on the "unity of the Trinity".

[Armand]

Peace, GraceSeeker, thank you for the thorough answer to my questions. You and several other Christians have put forth good explantions for the Christian perspective on the "unity of the Trinity".

I was anticipating a response from Grace Seeker to the post I wrote last.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no Christian "hints" in the Tanakh. The Tanakh and New Testament are complete opposites. It doesn't really matter what the NT says about the OT -- it is the reverse that is important. Unfortunately, we find nothing in the scriptures about the trinity, a divine sonship, or vicarious atonement that the NT proclaims.

Finally:

As promised, allow me to expound on my questions regarding the nature of Christ. Jesus' physical body was created, I'm sure you would agree?

Your claim to salvation through the blood of Christ (pbuh) is most amusing when you consider the fact that his blood was created by God. On what grounds does the vicarious atonement stand in the light of this?

Blessings of abundance to anyone who can resolve this one.

Peace,

Armand

[Grace Seeker]

As far as I'm concerned, there are no Christian "hints" in the Tanakh. The Tanakh and New Testament are complete opposites. It doesn't really matter what the NT says about the OT -- it is the reverse that is important. Unfortunately, we find nothing in the scriptures about the trinity, a divine sonship, or vicarious atonement that the NT proclaims.

I didn't say that there were "Christian" hints in the Tanakh. I said that as a Christian, I see what I call "hints" of the monotheistic God existing as a being that is both multi-personal and relational in nature.

I if you read my above post you will also see that I didn't actually say that it did make a difference what the NT has to say about the OT. (Though I do think you dismiss it to lightly, perhaps it is a good standard you might use when considering the NT and the Qu'ran.) What I did was examine what in the OT might have had an impact on those who came to faith in Jesus in the first century preparing them for the development of a trinitarian faith even within monotheistic Judaism.


As for the rest of what you write and sought of me. You have presented a number conclusions as if they were fact. What they really are opinions; opinions I don't happen to agree with. I have given some of the reasons for the opinion I hold to. You are certainly entitled to think otherwise if you so desire. If you really are interested in learning about what I think and believe or why I do so, I will be glad to engage in that sort of discussion, but I have no desire to enter into endless debate simply for the purpose of trying to prove myself right and you wrong, nor to engage with anyone who desires to do the opposite with regard to me. As I find most differences beginning with apriori assumptions regarding the nature of what God must be like, can or cannot do, be or cannot be, I find little value in simply refuting another's position. Whereas Mustafa sought to understand where I was coming from and how Christians think about these things, you appear to be more interested in proving your own or challenging another's point of view. The problem is you begin with assumptions about the Tanakh, the New Testament, and the very nature of atonement that are foreign to my understanding for these things just as my views would be to you. Hence, I though might make an argument that is beyond refutation, but it would be pointless as our respective starting places would be so different that the very concepts I would present would probably be meaningless to you. And as it does not appear that you seek to actually see things from another point of view, but merely engage in some sort of verbal jousting match I prefer to decline. So, beyond answering your question as to what I meant by "hints", which I thoroughly covered above, there really was nothing more to discuss.

[MustafaMc]

I didn't say that there were "Christian" hints in the Tanakh. I said that as a Christian, I see what I call "hints" of the monotheistic God existing as a being that is both multi-personal and relational in nature.

This is an example of reading a religous text through the lenses of our own personal faith. Just as you see hints of a "multi-person" God in the OT, so also we see prophesy about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in the NT gospels. However, just as you don't see what we see regarding the "Spirit of Truth", so also the Jew doesn't see what you do in the OT regarding God's triune nature. I suppose when we read something of another's scripture we assume that our own beliefs and preconceived ideas of what the Truth is, actually is the Truth, and it flavors the interpretation of that other text to support our own personal faith.

[Armand]

Salaam,

As for the rest of what you write and sought of me. You have presented a number conclusions as if they were fact. What they really are opinions; opinions I don't happen to agree with. I have given some of the reasons for the opinion I hold to. You are certainly entitled to think otherwise if you so desire. If you really are interested in learning about what I think and believe or why I do so, I will be glad to engage in that sort of discussion, but I have no desire to enter into endless debate simply for the purpose of trying to prove myself right and you wrong, nor to engage with anyone who desires to do the opposite with regard to me. As I find most differences beginning with apriori assumptions regarding the nature of what God must be like, can or cannot do, be or cannot be, I find little value in simply refuting another's position. Whereas Mustafa sought to understand where I was coming from and how Christians think about these things, you appear to be more interested in proving your own or challenging another's point of view. The problem is you begin with assumptions about the Tanakh, the New Testament, and the very nature of atonement that are foreign to my understanding for these things just as my views would be to you. Hence, I though might make an argument that is beyond refutation, but it would be pointless as our respective starting places would be so different that the very concepts I would present would probably be meaningless to you. And as it does not appear that you seek to actually see things from another point of view, but merely engage in some sort of verbal jousting match I prefer to decline. So, beyond answering your question as to what I meant by "hints", which I thoroughly covered above, there really was nothing more to discuss.

I'm sorry if my words sounded the least bit harsh to you, Grace Seeker. By no means was it my intent to provoke any negative or uneasy feelings on your part. Forgive me if it appeared as such.

After replying to one of your replies, I waited a few days to give you time to respond, knowing that it is tough to deal with members of other faiths on their own message board. I've been there. All I asked for was brief and simple answer to a question that has puzzled me as of recent. I quickly recognized you were definitely a Christian well-versed in your theology hence I picked you to offer us a reasonable explanation regarding what seems to me as the deification of created substance. Rest assured, with several years of experience in my research on Christian thought and various other theosophies, I am very understanding of and attentive to different ethereal concepts regardless of what religion they may be. Quite honestly, I am excited to receive your argument, which you say is beyond refutation, that might shed some light on the topic. If you are able to resolve the issue then I will back off and move on.

I believe all of us present would enjoy a continued discussion on this particular subject. I shall put aside my Islamic doctrine and open my mind as I examine your postulation. Remember, there is no hostility in true inter-faith discourse or aggressive argumentation involved.

Again, I thank you for your time and contributing some of your knowledge to our forum, which is well appreciated. I will look forward to your answers in hope for a peaceful resolution.

God bless,

Armand

[Grace Seeker]

This is an example of reading a religous text through the lenses of our own personal faith. Just as you see hints of a "multi-person" God in the OT, so also we see prophesy about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in the NT gospels. However, just as you don't see what we see regarding the "Spirit of Truth", so also the Jew doesn't see what you do in the OT regarding God's triune nature. I suppose when we read something of another's scripture we assume that our own beliefs and preconceived ideas of what the Truth is, actually is the Truth, and it flavors the interpretation of that other text to support our own personal faith.

I agree. I think I even said most of the same above in my own post:

And just as I think that Muslims are reading things into the Bible that are not there when they make those great leaps, no doubt Jewish readers of the Tanakh would say the same to me.

Of course, only part of my post dealt with where it is that I see "hints" of the Trinity in the OT. Another aspect of it that I hope readers picked up on was how it is that those nonotheistic Jews who became followers of Jesus, might have been more predisposed to accept the idea of a tripersonal God than we usually allow for them to have so considered.

Salaam,
I'm sorry if my words sounded the least bit harsh to you, Grace Seeker. By no means was it my intent to provoke any negative or uneasy feelings on your part. Forgive me if it appeared as such.

Reading your post today, I might have over-reacted yesterday. In general I'm not seeking to engage in debate, but only to add clarification where one is seeking understanding or correction if something in Christianity is just patently misrepresented.

Since, it appears that I misconstrued your request, I shall attempt to respond as best I can, but be mindful that I can only give my personal view and that no doubt there would be others who would respond differently than I. Also, I hope you didn't hear me say that I had an argument "beyond refutation." Please, take a second look at what I actually said:

Hence, I though [sic] might make an argument that is beyond refutation...

First, you will see that my grammar is atrocious. Second, that I wrote in the conditional tense, not claiming that I either possessed or could produce any such argument, only that even if I did, it probably wouldn't solve anything for ultimately people (all of us, me included) tend to believe what they want to believe or at least what they are predisposed to believe. That is what makes it so hard, even when one is trying, to put one's self in another's shoes and understand their religion, political philosophy, or even views on child raising.

Now, as to when I get around to your question, I don't know. My plate is rather full this week, I have a conference to attend next week, and my daughter is flying in from Hong Kong to spend a couple of weeks of vacation with us. So, I've got to get a few other things done first, and then we'll see if you're still interested in and I'm capable of a reply.

[Armand]

Peace GS,

Reading your post today, I might have over-reacted yesterday. In general I'm not seeking to engage in debate, but only to add clarification where one is seeking understanding or correction if something in Christianity is just patently misrepresented.

I doubt you had over-reacted. The fault is mine for failing to express myself in a clearer manner. Like you, I also do not favour a debate at the moment due to years of pointless disputation on various forums, so I have come to learn that debate certainly is not always the right approach.

Since, it appears that I misconstrued your request, I shall attempt to respond as best I can, but be mindful that I can only give my personal view and that no doubt there would be others who would respond differently than I. - Also, I hope you didn't hear me say that I had an argument "beyond refutation." Please, take a second look at what I actually said: First, you will see that my grammar is atrocious. Second, that I wrote in the conditional tense, not claiming that I either possessed or could produce any such argument, only that even if I did, it probably wouldn't solve anything for ultimately people (all of us, me included) tend to believe what they want to believe or at least what they are predisposed to believe. That is what makes it so hard, even when one is trying, to put one's self in another's shoes and understand their religion, political philosophy, or even views on child raising.

Understandable. I guess I did misread your statement.

My view is that disbelief in certain theological doctrines doesn't necessarily denote a lack of comprehension. I may disagree with and assume that a particular concept is untrue, but not outside the realm of possibility. One thing Islam frequently calls upon humanity to reflect on is the unparalleled majesty and grandeur of God which, according to the Qur'an, exalts God above and beyond theanthropism, which of course doesn't detract an atom from His omnipotence. So, for Muslims, it isn't really matter of what the Creator could or could not do but what He would and would not do.

Now, as to when I get around to your question, I don't know. My plate is rather full this week, I have a conference to attend next week, and my daughter is flying in from Hong Kong to spend a couple of weeks of vacation with us. So, I've got to get a few other things done first, and then we'll see if you're still interested in and I'm capable of a reply.

Absolutely. Feel free to return when time allows and write back when you are able. I'm pretty sure I'll stay interested and I welcome any response from you.

Take good care and God bless.

[Grace Seeker]

So, for Muslims, it isn't really matter of what the Creator could or could not do but what He would and would not do.

Yeah, I've picked up on that over time. And that is one of the things I was referring to when saying that we begin with different apriori assumptions. Just a couple of illustrations:
1) The current thread about jokes not meant to be an offense. Because of different beginning points, not because we have different senses of humor, it seems that some things might be offensive to Muslims that would not be offensive to Christians. (And though it wasn't identified, I'm sure vice-versa as well.) It isn't that we don't both seek to honor and serve God or that we don't both highly value our resepctive scriptures. Rather it is the underlying assumptions about what is and isn't acceptable that are completely different.
2) On a Christian website someone mentioned about a prayer in a bathroom. (Trust me you don't want details.) It made me think back to a conversation on here several months ago in which the idea of a Muslim doing such a thing was out of the question. It was seen by some as tantamount to "soiling" God. Which I thought was equally strange, because I don't see how God could be soiled by any thing in creation as he is the author of it all.

Again, I'm not saying one is right and another is wrong. It is just that our underlaying differences begin to shape us and how we emotionally hear each other before the logic (or illogic) of a particular point is even intellectually considered.

[Grace Seeker]

Your claim to salvation through the blood of Christ (pbuh) is most amusing when you consider the fact that his blood was created by God. On what grounds does the vicarious atonement stand in the light of this?

[Can you] offer us a reasonable explanation regarding what seems to me as the deification of created substance?

When you speak of the deification of a created substance, I have to guess as to what you are referencing. Do you mean Jesus' physical body? Do you mean (looking at the other comment) Jesus' blood? Or perhaps something else entirely?

I'm not sure, so I'm stumbling around in the dark a bit. If you could clear that up first it would be helpful. Is this all there is to your question, or have I left some other parts out?

Then, as this doesn't really have as much to do with whether or not Christians worship God (not Jesus), as with a specific understanding of our worship of (I'm assuming) Jesus, I'm going to suggest posting this in another thread: Questions About Christians, Requesting Answers From Christians.

[Armand]

Well it's worth a shot I suppose. As you know, it would be worse if I was of those who argue that such and such is "impossible" or "cannot be done", without elaborating. My beliefs are not in the way of my ability to comprehend Christian theology even if I refuse to accept that something in the Bible did not really occur. Therefore I do not allow emotion to interfere with my analysis of your beliefs.

The point is to understand and not to refute.

I will kindly leave you alone for now and possibly take some time off the boards myself. :)

All the best my friend,

Armand

[Armand]

When you speak of the deification of a created substance, I have to guess as to what you are referencing. Do you mean Jesus' physical body? Do you mean (looking at the other comment) Jesus' blood? Or perhaps something else entirely?

I'm not sure, so I'm stumbling around in the dark a bit. If you could clear that up first it would be helpful. Is this all there is to your question, or have I left some other parts out?

Then, as this doesn't really have as much to do with whether or not Christians worship God (not Jesus), as with a specific understanding of our worship of (I'm assuming) Jesus, I'm going to suggest posting this in another thread: Questions About Christians, Requesting Answers From Christians.

Very well, we'll take it from there then.

[YusufNoor]

This is an example of reading a religous text through the lenses of our own personal faith. Just as you see hints of a "multi-person" God in the OT, so also we see prophesy about Prophet Muhammad (saaws) in the NT gospels. However, just as you don't see what we see regarding the "Spirit of Truth", so also the Jew doesn't see what you do in the OT regarding God's triune nature. I suppose when we read something of another's scripture we assume that our own beliefs and preconceived ideas of what the Truth is, actually is the Truth, and it flavors the interpretation of that other text to support our own personal faith.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i stumbled upon this a while back:

http://orthodoxstudybible.com/samples/genesis/P2/

it may or may not answer some of your questions MustafaMc. i would have PM'ed it to you, but i thought that Gene might actually order one once he saw/read it.

go ahead and read the whole Genesis sample. it's Eastern Orthodox, but it appears to incorporate the "Trinity" into Genesis. kinda eerie actually!

:sl:

[silkworm]

Christians should worship the Creator (the God) and not the creature (Jesus Christ), cause nobody can simply 'associate' a human with God and cannot make him 'consider' a God with God like qualities.

[Grace Seeker]

Christians should worship the Creator (the God) and not the creature (Jesus Christ), cause nobody can simply 'associate' a human with God and cannot make him 'consider' a God with God like qualities.

Thanks for you opinion on what we Christians SHOULD do. Now, as to the question at hand, whe do you think it is that we actually DO do? Do we worship God or not?

[AntiKarateKid]

Thanks for you opinion on what we Christians SHOULD do. Now, as to the question at hand, whe do you think it is that we actually DO do? Do we worship God or not?

Haven't responded here for a while. Using intermediaries such as idols, the cross, statues etc is acknowledging gods beside God. Worship is not a narrow term, it is somewhat broad. If you say, Saint Thomas/Jesus can you help me? You are considered worshiping other than God. If you say Allah can you help me, you are worshiping God. Now it does not matter whether you THINK Isa (pbuh) or Krushna or what have you is God, from the Islamic standpoint only God is God and Isa(pbuh) was a prophet so you are committing shirk. Thats what it boils down to I guess.

[john316]

I know of no sin or error that Jesus commited; however, I am in no position to judge whether any human being (including Jesus) was, is, or will be absolutely good.

What exactly according to you is absolutely good. If a person commits no sin as a human being and he cannot be absolutely good then what exactly is yor point?

[john316]

I am waiting for MustafaMC's response. What according to him is absolutely good?

[MustafaMc]

What exactly according to you is absolutely good. If a person commits no sin as a human being and he cannot be absolutely good then what exactly is yor point?

I refuse to answer the question that you ask, "Is Jesus good."

If I answer, "Yes", then you will put forth an argument that Jesus is Allah incarnate which is directly contradictory to my fundamental belief that Allah is the One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal. If I answer, "No", then I would be at risk of defaming a Servant, Prophet, and Messenger of Allah - which I refuse to do.

This is the last time that I will respond to this matter.

[john316]

I refuse to answer the question that you ask, "Is Jesus good."

If I answer, "Yes", then you will put forth an argument that Jesus is Allah incarnate which is directly contradictory to my fundamental belief that Allah is the One God without father, mother, son, daughter, or equal. If I answer, "No", then I would be at risk of defaming a Servant, Prophet, and Messenger of Allah - which I refuse to do.

This is the last time that I will respond to this matter.

So I guess that should be the last time you use the Bible to justify your fundamental beliefs. My beliefs will be from scriptures alone(sola scriptura).
The Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

This is what the BIBLE may stand for.

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

:):):):):):):):):)

[MustafaMc]

Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

The indisputable answer to this question is that Christians undeniably worship Jesus, who they believe is God incarnate. Sometimes they pray to "the Father" and end the prayer "in the name of your son, Jesus, amen". Sometimes they pray to Jesus and end the prayer "in your name, amen". There is no disagreement that the Christian focal point is on Jesus, more specifically, on the ultimate sacrifice that he made on the cross for their personal salvation.

[Grace Seeker]

So I guess that should be the last time you use the Bible to justify your fundamental beliefs. My beliefs will be from scriptures alone(sola scriptura).
The Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the final authority of Christian doctrine.

This is what the BIBLE may stand for.

Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth

:):):):):):):):):)

I'm trying to make sense out of this post and can't.

First, I've never seen Mustafa use the Bible to justify any of his beliefs as a Muslim. His use of the Bible seems to try to understand the beliefs that Christians (and/or Jews) hold so that he can better relate to them. And then also to engage Christians in serious debate with regard to their beliefs when they assert things as true that he doesn't see as being supported from the Bible, but perhaps more human interpretation than divine inspiration. I do both of these same things with the Qu'ran and Hadith.

Second, I would hardly label Mustafa's beliefs as being "fundamentalistic". Certainly he has some beliefs that are fundamental to him, just as you and I have some beliefs that are fundamental to us as followers of Christ, but using the term as the label it seems to have become in popular culture, I would say that one who declares the Bible to be "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth" to be more fundamentalistic than a Muslim who is willing to make friends with Christians without insisting that they either convert to Islam or be treated as an infidel being the only options. Many a Christian could learn from that type of tolerance.

Third, a statement like: "I know of no sin or error that Jesus commited; however, I am in no position to judge whether any human being (including Jesus) was, is, or will be absolutely good," seems entirely reasonable to me for someone coming from outside the Christian perspective. They are simple statements of fact. Mustafa knows of no sin or error that Jesus committed. That doesn't mean that Jesus was sinless, but that he knows of no sin. And at face value, it doesn't even mean that Mustafa believes that Jesus was sinless (though he might), only again that he doesn't know of anything that he could testify of or point to where Jesus may have committed a sin. It is saying that so far as Mustafa knows from his own personal knowledge, he cannot articulate any sin that Jesus is known to have committed.

He also adds the qualifier that he is not in a position to be making judgements regarding anyone -- Jesus, you, me, his next door neighbor or a family member -- as to whether or not that individual is good. Why not? Well, if it is true what Jesus said that no one is good except God alone, then it would seem to follow that no one can really declare another to be good except God alone. As a faithful Muslim, Mustafa would never assert that authority in his own life, but would leave all such declarations in God's charge. And though I might disagree with Mustafa over many finer points of theology, this seems to be a pretty broad concept that I believe we can be in full agreement with one another be with Christian or Muslim (or perhaps any number of other faiths as well).

[Grace Seeker]

Do christians worship God (not Jesus)?

The indisputable answer to this question is that Christians undeniably worship Jesus, who they believe is God incarnate. Sometimes they pray to "the Father" and end the prayer "in the name of your son, Jesus, amen". Sometimes they pray to Jesus and end the prayer "in your name, amen". There is no disagreement that the Christian focal point is on Jesus, more specifically, on the ultimate sacrifice that he made on the cross for their personal salvation.

I have no argument with the concept that Christians worship Jesus. I know that I certainly do. But I wonder what would be the response if the converse of the question were posed: Do Christians worship Jesus (not God)? I suspect that many would think that by saying that Christians worship Jesus that this in itself is sufficient proof to say that Christians do not worship God, but that I do not believe would be an indisputable position, even if it is indisputable that Christians do worship Jesus. Speaking only for myself, I know that when I worship Jesus I understand that that I am, in fact, at the same time worshipping God. Hence, I could not affirm the question when presented as "Do Christians worship God, not Jesus?", nor could I affirm it if rewritten to ask do Chrisians worship Jesus, not God?", for I believe that in worshipping Jesus Christians are worshipping God and that in worshipping God Jesus is always included in that worship. Not to insult my Muslim friends, for I know it would seem shirk to them, but my own understanding is that anyone who worships God is (whether they realize it or not) also offering worship to Jesus even if they do not use his name.

[Muslim_4_Life]

The answer to whether christians worship Jesus or God is easily answered from a perspective of a non-muslim, or perhaps more accurately a muslim. Creation is finite everything in creation has a beginning and an end. Creation is started by Allah, this means that the finite has at it's origin an intelligence and power that is the greatest and also infinite. This simple fact lets us to no other conclusion that pantheism is a false and illogical belief. If Allah were part of creation then:

1. It would mean that He has a beginning and also an end. And this inadvertently means that

2. He would not be the most supreme, the allmighty, the most knowledgable etc. and that leads us to conclude that

3. He is also susceptible to disease and death

Astaghfirullah! May Allah ban such evil thoughts from our minds

The christian religion is based on the bible, a collection of books written over centuries by many different people most of whom never claimed to be divinely inspired by God, one particular person claimed to have written his gospel because they he others doing it and saw fit to embark on a similar task believing he could do a better job at it.

Not surprisingly because of this the bible is a book of contradictory statements, and falsehood. The oldest scriptures of the bible the ones used to write copies from in all the different languages of the world are in themselves 5 times the copy of the pressumed original. This means that there is no original scripture to be found, there is no way of checking the validity of the scriptures moreover the knowledge of christians today is lacking so much they do not study the scriptures in hebrew or even aramaic for as much as it is possible, and look at the striking evidence it still contains in support of Islam and the Qur'an. Rather they take the english and misinterpret it to their liking. To take an example is something someone asked earlier in this thread which came down to asking whether Jesus is good or not. The answer to this question is easy to answer because islamically the attribute of good belongs only to Allah. Allah is good but we only exhibit some of it's characteristics in our behaviour and it is subject to our own standard for determining what is good and what is not. So when Jesus is supposed to have said as is stated in the bible:

Luke 18:19

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

It is understood that Jesus is negating the attribute of good and instead of answering the jew and telling him that he should worship Jesus, Jesus does something else He questions the remark with a rhetorical question. Notice that Jesus does not wait for an answer, he instead answers the question himself by saying none is good, save one, that is, God.

For those christians who still wanna insist that Jesus is not negating divinity (when he does so grammatically) I make the following example.

If someone were to come to me and say mr. president what do you think about this or that, and I would ask him rhetorically why do you call me president when only one is the president and that is the one ruling the country anyone with common sense will understand that I'm negating the suggestion of being a president and am in fact pointing out who is the only one deserving that title.

If it had been the aim of Jesus to have the jews worship him he could very easily have remained silent on this claim and instead simply have answered keep the commandments.

Thus remains the question was Jesus sinless. Well we muslims can at least say jesus was more free of sin as we know him in Islam than as he is known in the bible.

When we look at the bible it tells us God cannot be tempted, however we see something different when we look at matthew chapter 4 verses 5 through 8.

4:5

Then the devil took him to the holy city, and set him on the pinnacle of the temple,

4:6

and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down; for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge of you,' and 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.'"

4:7

Jesus said to him, "Again it is written, 'You shall not tempt the Lord your God.'"

4:8

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them;

Look at how Jesus is goes with the devil to the holy city. Clearly if by God it is meant Jesus than he was certainly tempted. And a second time Jesus is taken by the devil and tempted on a very high mountain. So does God hearken to the will of the devil when he wants to take Him around the world showing tempting Him with wordly splendour?

Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

So when christians are worshipping Jesus are they worshipping God? Against all evidences from the bible and common sense they may still choose to believe so however from an islamic perspective they are merely worshipping a man, a messenger of Allah and in doing so committing shirk which is the highest sin possible. Polytheism is forbidden in Islam and it is even forbidden in christianity, the first of the commandments is:

Exodus 20

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

So all people are called to have tawheed which means believing in the oneness of Allah and not worshipping anything besides Allah, for no one can share in anything with Allah.

This is the primary call to Islam and those that do not worship Allah as the only deity worthy of worship, who is the one and the only true deity who begets not nor is begotten, who has no one equal or supercede Him in anything are polytheists.

There is a great deal of evidence that Paul (Saul of tarsus) or the one speaking in His name (the uknown writer of the pauline gospels) introduced pagan elements in to christianity to make it more palatable to the romans. They have in their history also a God who came down as the son and sacrificed himself for the sins of mankind. He too was born on december 25th and there are many such commonalities with other pagan religions of the past. Alot of it comes from hinduism as well.

So the christians today unfortunately worship many things but not their creator Allah. They have even forsaken the calling of His proper name which is Allah but rather call Him yhwh or God which is not what Jesus called His creator. These are all pagan titles, it is however interesting to note that when Jesus was supposedly on the cross giving His last in moments of desperation he called out to Allah. the aramaic is Allah Allah lama sabachtani. Oh Lord oh Lord why hast thou forsaken me.

Another piece of evidence is the authentic rendering of what Jesus said in the bible when he prophecied of the coming of Ahmed the spirit of truth, the praised one who will guide mankind unto all truth and again not only prophecies the coming of the prophet Muhammed but also speaks of His creator Allah. Watch the 2 min clip from the passion of christ here:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BTSG0YzlGB8

In conclusion Allah tells us in the Qur'an to call the people of the book (jews and christians) to the worship of Allah alone and no one else besides Allah. The evidence is for those who ponder much and seek the truth of Allah in sincerity. No one can guide a person but Allah, and no one can misguide but Allah. We have no power but we do as we are told by Allah for He knows what we don't know, and He knows what is best for us.

[SixTen]

Yes and no - this goes for all theistic religions.

All theistic religions believe in the ultimate creator - so to say.

In this sense, it would seem like they all follow the same God.

But is this really possible, if the people say God said different things? He could have only said one surely - so in that essense Islam follows a different God to that of Christians, because Christians believe God had begot a son for sacrificing - while Islam does not - so is it the same God? Or does one believe in a manmade God?

[Grace Seeker]

The answer to whether christians worship Jesus or God is easily answered from a perspective of a non-muslim, or perhaps more accurately a muslim. Creation is finite everything in creation has a beginning and an end. Creation is started by Allah, this means that the finite has at it's origin an intelligence and power that is the greatest and also infinite. This simple fact lets us to no other conclusion that pantheism is a false and illogical belief. If Allah were part of creation then....



Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

So when christians are worshipping Jesus are they worshipping God? Against all evidences from the bible and common sense they may still choose to believe so however from an islamic perspective they are merely worshipping a man, a messenger of Allah and in doing so committing shirk which is the highest sin possible.

So the christians today unfortunately worship many things but not their creator Allah. They have even forsaken the calling of His proper name which is Allah but rather call Him yhwh or God which is not what Jesus called His creator. These are all pagan titles, it is however interesting to note that when Jesus was supposedly on the cross giving His last in moments of desperation he called out to Allah. the aramaic is Allah Allah lama sabachtani. Oh Lord oh Lord why hast thou forsaken me.

See what I mean about it being disputable?

In conclusion Allah tells us in the Qur'an to call the people of the book (jews and christians) to the worship of Allah alone and no one else besides Allah. The evidence is for those who ponder much and seek the truth of Allah in sincerity. No one can guide a person but Allah, and no one can misguide but Allah. We have no power but we do as we are told by Allah for He knows what we don't know, and He knows what is best for us.

Good to know that if we Christians are wrong, at least it is Allah who has led us down this wrong path.

[Muslim_4_Life]

See what I mean about it being disputable?





Good to know that if we Christians are wrong, at least it is Allah who has led us down this wrong path.

It seems like you're mocking, but let me clarify the issue a bit here. it is quite logical to say none guides or misguides save Allah. Because nothing in this world happens without Allah's will or approval. I have had christians tell me that God did not create satan, or that satan is the creator of evil and God cannot create it. This is all very illogical, to give satan more prestige, more power than he really has. Creation is the will of Allah, and because Allah is not part of time and space as time and space are created by Allah than it follow logically that He knows all things whether they be in the past, present and future, and it befits His might that He is most able to allow and disallow what He wills. This does not negate free will on our part, we have been given the freedom to choose, and Allah knows all of our choices and He permits thereof what He wills and He prohibits from happening what He wills. It is not for mortal beings such as us to question Allah concerning what He wills. Because this is an obvious trap into asking other nonsensical questions such as many unbelievers have posed before concerning the majesty that is Allah and the unseen. How often do we find people with little knowledge mocking and laughing and asking where is Allah if He exists, or let Allah do this or that if He truly exists. What these people don't understand is that nothing they do reduces anything from Allah's majesty nor does it add to it. They are only mocking themselves but they do not realize it. So those who choose evil and do not repent and persist in their evil than Allah will surely increase for them what they have chosen to the point of no return, so they will never be able to go back and see the truth unless Allah wills for them to see. Similarly a person will choose what is truth and does not lie so much so that Allah will increase him in this and it will become natural for him to speak the truth. It's hard for non-muslim - at least in my experience - to understand and accept that all power resides with Allah alone and that no one can do anything, think, breath, live, die, laugh, cry, speak truth or lies except Allah permits it first. But it is your own choices, and those who think they will not be punished in this world and the hereafter for the evil that their mouths and hands have wrought they are sadly mistaken. So instead we should repent and learn from what comes to us of good knowledge.

The christians should leave this paganism business and purify their religion as all the prophets of Allah conveyed which is tawheed, first commandment. Anyone that invokes anything besides Allah whether it is a person, or an secular ideology or a thing such as money or a commodity such as oil, gold, real estate etc and they die in this state being slaves to these things rather than being a slave to Allah they will surely enter the hell fire and so it has been decreed. Islam means complete and total submission to the will of the only deity who alone is worthy of worship Allah. Jesus taught this, and the christians can find prove of this tantamount in their corrupted scriptures and in the perfect Qur'an. And every other prophet and messenger of Allah has come with this same message.

[snakelegs]

Yes and no - this goes for all theistic religions.

All theistic religions believe in the ultimate creator - so to say.

In this sense, it would seem like they all follow the same God.

But is this really possible, if the people say God said different things? He could have only said one surely - so in that essense Islam follows a different God to that of Christians, because Christians believe God had begot a son for sacrificing - while Islam does not - so is it the same God? Or does one believe in a manmade God?

wow - that's an interesting question i never thought about before!

[MustafaMc]

I have no argument with the concept that Christians worship Jesus. I know that I certainly do. But I wonder what would be the response of the converse of the question were posed: Do Christians worship Jesus (not God)? I suspect that many would think that by saying that Christians worship Jesus that this in itself is sufficient proof to say that Christians do not worship God, but that I do not believe would be an indisputable position, even if it is indisputable that Christians do worship Jesus. Speaking only for myself, I know that when I worship Jesus I understand that that I am, in fact, at the same time worshipping God. Hence, I could not affirm the question when presented as "Do Christians worship God, not Jesus?", nor could I affirm it if rewritten to ask do Chrisians worship Jesus, not God?", for I believe that in worshipping Jesus Christians are worshipping God and that in worshipping God Jesus is always included in that worship.

My understanding is that this is a reiteration of what I wrote earlier. Hence, I agree with you.

Not to insult my Muslim friends, for I know it would seem shirk to them, but my own understanding is that anyone who worships God is (whether they realize it or not) also offering worship to Jesus even if they do not use his name.

From your perspective, I can understand what you are saying because you see Jesus as a human manifestation of the One God. However, of course I disagree with the statement that "anyone who worships God...is...also offering worship to Jesus..." because we Muslims definitely distinguish between the two and in no sense of the word do we worship Jesus, the human who walked on earth nearly 2000 years ago. You may see that we worship the same God, but also say that we Muslims refuse to accept the "full manifestation" of God because we reject the divinity of Jesus. However, as you have acknowledged, we Muslims see the equating of Jesus with God as being undeniably shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah. Christians see the unity of three in the Trinity, but Muslims see their distinction in what may be called a "Trichotomy" with the One God, being distinct from both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Note that I don't mean in the sense of opposites here, but of distinctness.

From Wikipedia:
A dichotomy is any splitting of a whole into exactly two non-overlapping parts.
In other words, it is a bipartition of elements. i.e. nothing can belong simultaneously to both parts, and everything must belong to one part or the other. They are often contrasting and spoken of as "opposites."
New word:
A trichotomy is any splitting of a whole into exactly three non-overlapping parts.
In other words, it is a tripartition of elements. i.e. nothing can belong simultaneously to the other two parts, and everything must belong to one part or the other.

[MKE Brother]

I grew up Roman Catholic and one (of quite a few) of my problems with it was the polytheistic vew of the trinity. Far too much emphasis on the prophet Jesus. Allah has now shown me the way, I believe it is others who are misguided.

[mkh4JC]

Consider the following, christians believe that Jesus is God, the son of God and the holy spirit. These three according to the christians are one, and equal to one another. The example was made earlier of the different states of water these being liquid, solid and gas and these being one and the same. In fact even if we go with this analogy this very much dissproves the concept of trinity because it suggests that when God is God He is not the son and/or the holy spirit, and when He is the son He is not God and/or the holy spirit and when He is the holy spirit He is not God and/or the son just like when water is liquid it is not solid and/or gas, and when it is solid it is not liquid and/or gas and when it is gas it is not liquid and/or solid.

While you can try to explain the Trinity this way or any number of ways, this is how I do so using a verse in the Old Testament no less:

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.

Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

[Grace Seeker]

While you can try to explain the Trinity this way or any number of ways, this is how I do so using a verse in the Old Testament no less:

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.

Therefore: God=The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

Fedos, while I agree with your final statement, in fairness to the truth I think we must admit that the passage cited, Genesis 1:26, (although it does indeed use plural in referring to God) is not the best passage to use as a prooftext for the Trinity. The reason is that the Hebrew term employed herein is being used more like the "royal WE", simlar to how a king/queen might say "WE" when speaking of him/herself, and is not meant to be understood by its original Hebrew audience as a true plural personal pronoun. Of course, that fact doesn't disprove the Trinity, but to prove it we Christians are better off referencing other passages.

I grew up Roman Catholic and one (of quite a few) of my problems with it was the polytheistic vew of the trinity. Far too much emphasis on the prophet Jesus. Allah has now shown me the way, I believe it is others who are misguided.

I'm sorry to hear that you received a polytheistic understanding of the Trinity within the Catholic Church. That certainly is NOT what the Catholic Church (or any other Christian church that ascribes to historic, orthodox Christian theology) teaches. There is a significant difference between the tri-theism which you apparently experienced and a correct view of the Trinity which understands that there is one and only one God who exists in three seperate and distinct persons (something close to, but not exactly, what Mustafa means with his definition of trichotomy), but is yet one being.

Another apparent misunderstanding of the trinity, based on some of the other above comments, is that it involves God existing as a finite being or as a created being. Such an understanding is a terrible corruption of the actual understanding of the incarnation, which involves the creator putting on corruptable flesh, yet not being corrupted by it, but rather redeeming all who are a part of that corruption. So, it is really quite the opposite of what some seem to infer from it. While it may not make sense to all, we Christians do not believe that God is so limited that he cannot do what seem impossible to the human mind.

[Grace Seeker]

It seems like you're mocking, but let me clarify the issue a bit here. it is quite logical to say none guides or misguides save Allah.

I don't have a problem with the overall concept that none guides or misguides save Allah. Certainly, the Christian concept of the sovereignty of God is a very close parallel. I'm just saying that if you hold strongly to Surah 14:4...

So Allah leads astray those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases and He is Exalted in power, full of wisdom

...then, we have to note that there is only one actor in the process of any human's salavation who actually gets to make a choice, and that actor is Allah.

A person can be a devout Muslim and go to hell or a incorrigible pagan and go to paradise. It is, as you say, according to Allah's will and not your will or my will. So, if it be Allah's will that I should be led astray to believe what I believe, then why the great protest? Apparently Allah has set a seal on my heart and on my hearing. And on my eyes as well. No doubt, great will be my chastisement (Surah 2:6-7), but if this is what Allah's will is for me, then what human being has the power to change it? Surely you would not say that Allah is wrong and seek to change my fate? No one has the power to change what Allah has already decided. From my conception, my fate has been in the hands of Allah. I can live with that.

The christians should leave this paganism business and purify their religion as all the prophets of Allah conveyed which is tawheed, first commandment. Anyone that invokes anything besides Allah whether it is a person, or an secular ideology or a thing such as money or a commodity such as oil, gold, real estate etc and they die in this state being slaves to these things rather than being a slave to Allah they will surely enter the hell fire and so it has been decreed. Islam means complete and total submission to the will of the only deity who alone is worthy of worship Allah. Jesus taught this, and the christians can find prove of this tantamount in their corrupted scriptures and in the perfect Qur'an. And every other prophet and messenger of Allah has come with this same message.

One of the reasons I can live with my fate being placed in the hands of Allah, is that you are right I do have a different understanding of who Allah is than you do. You may, as I have acknowledged above, call it shirk, but I believe that God is not a fatalistic creator. Rather, I believe that God, especially in his sovereignty, has given a degree of freedom to humans to make individual decisions of their own will and to do so with freedom to accept or reject him as Lord of their lives. That is, each person ultimately chooses for themselves to say (or not say) to God, "let your will, not mine, be done in my life".

Submission can only be truly submissive if it is voluntary, not something chosen for you by another. Only pagans are fatalists. Christians are not fatalists. And Christians are not pagans.

Christians believe that God allows us to make the choice to go our own way, after our own will and desires (and thus try to live as if we were "god" of our own lives) or to submit to God's will for us. When we make the later choice we place our lives into his hands, trusting in him. This act of trusting, not the act of ascribing to a certain set of beliefs, is what Christians really mean by faith. As such, we Christians believe that God has acted in Jesus Christ to accomplish something for us that we could never accomplish for ourselves. We believe that no amount of good works, right words, or proper/moral behavior would be sufficient to guarantee us a spot in heaven. But we do believe that Jesus' work on the cross is sufficient to open the door to heaven to all who would receive it. It is only necessary to trust in that offering of Jesus' life in our place to receive, even now in this life, the promise of heaven and a life eternally attached to God. No Roman or other form of paganism ever offered such a promise, and it is trusting in that promise which is at the heart of the Christian faith.

So, I trust that in Christ's work Allah is himself accomplishing for me something which I could never accomplish on my own. Whether I am right or wrong in that act of trusting, it is into Allah/God's hands that I place myself in total trust that has already acted to redeem me (in Jesus' life and death and resurrection) and that because of this act of redemption he will ultimately take me to himself in paradise.

[MustafaMc]

The previous 2 posts reflect a high level of understanding of the Islamic faith and it states the Christian faith in a understandable way. While reading, the following passage came to my mind.

Qur'an 5:116-119 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Jesus son of Mary, Did you ever say to the people, "Worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

The fate of each of us is in the Hands of Allah. May Allah guide those who seek guidance and forgive those who strive to submit their will to His.

[mkh4JC]

Fedos, while I agree with your final statement, in fairness to the truth I think we must admit that the passage cited, Genesis 1:26, (although it does indeed use plural in referring to God) is not the best passage to use as a prooftext for the Trinity. The reason is that the Hebrew term employed herein is being used more like the "royal WE", simlar to how a king/queen might say "WE" when speaking of him/herself, and is not meant to be understood by its original Hebrew audience as a true plural personal pronoun. Of course, that fact doesn't disprove the Trinity, but to prove it we Christians are better off referencing other passages.

Oh ok, I didn't know that. I knew that it was plural, but I didn't know what you just described. I'll keep that in mind for future reference.

[john316]

I don't know about you guys but I knw of a woman who died. The relatives were mourning for her for abt 12 hours until a chrisitian missionary who have prayed in the HOLY SPIRIT to GOD in the name of JESUS and by the power of prayer she was raised from the dead. PRAISE THE LORD!!!

Christ is the only hope for salvation. And salvation is a gift from God not earned. We believe in a personal relationship with God which can save us.

[Umar001]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

[Whatsthepoint]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

If I'm notwrong, he deceived Eve and even tempted Jesus.

[MKE Brother]

If I'm not wrong, he deceived Eve and even tempted Jesus.

Yes, correct on both counts

[Grace Seeker]

Do Christians hold that Satan can decieve people?

Sure. And, as pointed out, he has. But we also hold that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3).

I'm not sure if your question is related to John316's story about the woman being resurrected or not. But in case it might be, even though I have never myself been witness to such a thing, I want to affirm that it is God, not Satan, who is in the business of doing resurrections.



I'm going to post a link here, one I understand may need to be deleted, (if so, I accept that, I just ask that you read it before making that decision), that I think posses some interesting questions regarding the connection between what God is doing in Jesus and in humanity from a cosmological perspective. I post them because the comment about the woman's resurrection made me think of the Biblical story of the resurrection of Lazarus which is referred to in this article.

[Eeman]

Lool, can't disagree with you there:),
However i have always wondered why are people so ashamed when doing there business, that they have to lock themselves up in private areas. To show how perfect the act is?

LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!
Sorry I just found that hilarious!

[Eeman]

I have a question that has been really bugging me and i would really appreciate it if the christian brothers and sisters would help me understand this.
Firstly i do not have any knowledge whatsoever of the 1st two scriptures the torah and the bible, i have come across verses but to be honest i have never paid much attention since my main attention has been towards the Qur'an and islam.

Now a few weeks back i was on youtube watching clips as usual and i cam across a video from a christian brother that was anti islam and had many videos posted about how Allah swt is a fake God ( Astaghfirullah!!!)

So regardless at one point his arguement was this, now as he put it according to christian belief as long as the person believes in god as in the holy trinity (if that is what it is named) then that person goes to heaven in the hereafter. And was criticising islam on the basis that our so called fake God ( Astaghfirullah) holds us account according to our deeds even if we do believe in Him.

Now what i dont understand and what i fail to understand i should put it is say for arguments sake you have a murderer or a rapist or a child molester who believes in god (holy trinity) with firm belief but yet does wrong and commits major sins how can they then go straight to heaven just on the basis that they believe in god ( holy trinity)????

And on the other side you have a jew or a buddhist who strive all their life for humanity and do people no bad or harm but just do not believe in that god (holy trinity) and they go straight to hell for that whilst heaven is full of christian murderers, rapists and child molesters and oppressors just because these people believed in the holy trinity????

Would you not think that there is a big flaw in that?

[MKE Brother]

It usually isn't then entire trinity that one must state belief to, just Christ, but it is assumed that if you do that that the other two are implied.

Depending on the flavor of Christianity you are dealing with things can vary but the general rule is yes, no matter what you have done; murder, rape, etc, if you decide to suddenly accept Christ into your life you are absolved of everything you have done, you have a new slate, that is how they view things.

[Grace Seeker]

Eeman, questions very similar to yours are being discussed on pages 88 & 89 of the thread Questions About Christains. Requesting Answer From Christians. so I'l just direct you there rather than repeating myself here. If our responses there don't actually address your question, please state it again, we will be happy to get more specific where we can.

[suffiyan007]

basically, some denominations of the christian faith beleive that God is made up of Three forms, all of which ARE GOD.. just like water has 3 forms - Water (Liquid Form), Ice (Solid Form), Water Vapour (Gas)

The three forms of God are God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.. and soo I guess this is why some pray to Jesus, because they beleive he is God, in a different form.. thus the Trinity comes into Play

Some christians (Jehovah's Witnesses especially) beleive that Jesus was God's first creation of life, even before the heavens and earth, even before Adam and Eve etc etc but these denominations do not recognise Jesus as God, but usually do recognise his importance and end prayers by saying 'and we say this through your Son Jesus Christ Amen' just like Jesus delivered the Good News, they see him as a messenger to God and so ask prayers through his name.

Many Many other christians say prayers through Jesus as well including Trinitarians alike. But christians are not polytheists as some might tend to beleive, perhaps its how we interpret and perceive God that distinguishes us from other monotheistic groups

Within Islam there is strictly 1 God, and none as high or as equal, all are prophets who speak his work. Some denominations of Christianity allow the Supreme Diety as having another form - Jesus Christ

Hope this helps, sounds a little confusing, but Christians beleive in ONE God, its just the interpretations. :) God Bless

Questioning about Christianity are so brilliant question:


Talk bout Christian here what i begin:


Christian believe in "Trinity". "In the name of the father, and the son and the holy spirit" Amen. Why the christian put sign of the cross when they see something OMG! why Do christian pray to Mother Mary and Jesus.? Cause The both human are perfect human and born sinless.So the christian believe that why Mary and Jesus come to the world just like an angel...so that's why christian pray to the sculptureso of Mary and Jesus...cause christian patronise Mary and jesus to pray for them, cause we as a normal human are sinners.People assumed mother mary never die her body and soul lifted up to heaven and jesus is a miracle to the Jews and christian...cause why a woman can bear a child without a man intercourse with her?here the pinnacle that the jews and christian deviation the truth....so is a miracle that Jesus so intelligent to answer the questions of the people of israel....So the christian making Mother mary is mother of god and jesus is son of God?

Here the quotes of the bible to be considered:

a) Begotten son of god

- Jesus said to be the only begotten son of God(John 3:18)
- About David the bible says" The lord has said unto me. Thou art my son, this day have i begotten thee(psalm2:3)

b) Son of God

- Thus says the lord that, israel is my son even my first born(exodus 4:22)

c) God as husband

-For thy Maker is thy husband; the Lord of hosts is his name and thy redeemer the holy one of Israel.(isaiah 54:5)

- The Church is known as the Bride of Christ



Can these make sense?

Even the christian priests deviation the truth...and the christian believers are follow blindly.




A'uzubillahi minas syaitanir Rajim..

Bismillah Hir Rahma Nir Rahim

" Say , He is God, The One and Only, God the eternal,absolute.
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten and there is none like unto Him.
(Surah al-ikhlas 1-4)

[suffiyan007]

prayer for mother mary ,God,Jesus:

Holy Mary full of grace
the lord is be with you
blessed you are amongst woman
blessed fruit of ya womb jesus
Holy Mary mother of God
pray for us sinners now,
and hour of our death.

amen...


Our Father in heaven
holy be ya name
ya will be done
as on earth as it in heaven
give us our daily bread
forgive us our sin
and we forgive those who sin against us
but delivered us from evil

Amen.


Lord Jesus Christ,on son of the father
Lord God; Lamb of God
you take away the sin of the world
have mercy on us
you seated at the right hand of the father
receive our prayer
for you alone are the Holy one
You alone are the lord
you alone are the most high, jesus christ with the holy spirit
in the glory of God the father.Amen..



Does these make sense?


trinity are making people crazy....

if there're 3 god...the world r fighting for God position..anyone also wanna be king....huhu

[Grace Seeker]

Why the christian put sign of the cross when they see something OMG!

First, not all Christians actually do make the sign of the cross. Those that do use it simply as a mnemonic device to remind themselves to pray in the name of "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." I believe nearly all people, including Muslims that I have prayed alongside in Friday prayers, have such mnemonic devices.

why Do christian pray to Mother Mary and Jesus.? Cause The both human are perfect human and born sinless.So the christian believe that why Mary and Jesus come to the world just like an angel...so that's why christian pray to the sculptureso of Mary and Jesus

Actually that isn't true. If this is your understanding of Christian prayer you have been misinformed.

The reason that Christians pray to Jesus, and through Mary are different questions and have completely different answers.

We pray to Jesus because we do believe that Jesus is simply the incarnation of the one Holy and Almighty God, the creator of the universe. Since Jesus is God, it makes perfect since to pray to Jesus, for it is just simple prayer to God.


As regards Mary, Christians don't really pray to Mary, but rather pray through Mary. (Yes, you will hear people use other language, but that is because they are being lazy and imprecise rather than speaking as correctly on this issue as they should.) I've noticed that many Muslims ask other Muslims to offer prayer (supplications) on their behalf. These prayers are not offerings of worship, but are asking for God's help. Christians too offer these types of prayers. Whereas Muslims have two different names for them, Christians often (not always) just use the term "prayer" to cover all sorts of prayers be they petitions, supplications, adoration, praise, or worship. And most certainly Christians, not less than Muslims, we make prayers of supplication seeking help.

In addition to praying for myself, sometimes I might ask a neighbor, a friend, a brother, another Christian, to pray for me when dealing with a particular crisis or problem in my life. I think you understand that taking these things to others and asking them to join me in these prayers of supplication is not worship. But we ask others to join us because the believe that the prayers of a righteous man can aid much. And somehow people sense that a corrollary to this is that the more people you ask to pray for you the better chance of being heard one's prayer has. (I'm not sure that is true, but as others say, it couldn't hurt.)

Anyway, it is also helpful to understand that many Christains believe that those who belong to God, enter into eternity with him not at some distant day of future judgment, but enter into eternity with God at the moment of their passing. And still other Christians believe that some people may have to spend some time in purgatory being purified of their sins before being able to enter into paradise with God, but over time this would be accomplished for the more righteous rather quickly and for the less righteouss more slowly but eventually. Certianly, Mary is viewed as one of the more righteous people who ever lived, but she is just viewed as a person. (When Catholics speak of her as the Mother of God, they don't mean that she is divine, they are only speaking of her role as having given birth to Jesus who was the incarnation of God come among us.) But I get ahead of myself.

As I might ask a friend to pray for me now, so too I might ask a friend who is in heaven to pray for me. This makes perfect sense when one remembers that people's lives don't end at death, but continue in the spiritual realm (a realm that is just as real as the physical world and one in which God abides). Therefore, why not continue to ask those persons to pray for us once they have entered into the spiritual realm? Those who see Mary as being especially close to Jesus think that Jesus might be more inclined to listen to a request made on our behalf from his mother than from us directly. It is for this reason that some (certainly not all) Christians pray through Mary, asking her to inteceede on their behalf, adding her own supplications along with those that they themselves are offering. Of course, there are many Christians who don't bother to pray through Mary or any other pesons, but take all of their petitions and prayers of supplication directly to God themselves.

So the christian making Mother mary is mother of god and jesus is son of God?

I just addressed this above. Mary is the mother of God not as a divine being, but only as the consequence of having been the mother of Jesus who we do understand to be Immanuel (i.e. God with us).

To say that Jesus is the Son of God is something completely different. It doesn't have anything to do with biology at all. It is a title that already existed for God's Messiah even before Jesus was born. Since Jesus is the Messiah (even Muslims admit this), then it is appropriate to call him "the Son of God". It is also appropriate to call him "the Son of Man" as this too was another title for the Messiah. And the terms "the Son of Man" and "the Son of God" are not contradictory, rather they speak to two different, but simultaneously true aspects of Jesus nature. Not that he was the biological progeny of either God or all of mankind at once, but that he has the hypostatic union of both the divine nature and human nature complete in one person. Something that would not work in nature, but then we are dealing with the supernatural when we are dealing with God, so that is no longer a problem except for those who minds cannot think of heavenly things but only in earthly terms.

Here the quotes of the bible to be considered:

a) Begotten son of god

[B]- Jesus said to be the only begotten son of God(John 3:18)

While some well-known English versions of the Bible use the term "begotten" to translate the Greek in which this was originally written, there are other (I believe better) translations. One of those is NIV which renders the verse as follows: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." The actual word being translated is μονογενους the connotation of which again has nothing to do with biology (which is why I don't prefer the term "only begotten" as I think people misunderstand it too easily) but speaks of uniqueness. And indeed Jesus was truly unique in his person.


μονογενους happens to also be the word used in other passages such as "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14), and "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known" (John 1:18) which again speak of the uniqueness (not the paternity) of Jesus.

But one of the more amazing places in which the term μονογενους is used is in Hebrews 11:17 to speak of Isaac as the μονογενους of Abraham. Well as any good Muslim would know, Isaac is NOT the only begotten son of Abraham. Isaac has an older brother, Ishmael. So "only begotten" is NOT the best translation for μονογενους. That is why I suggest the concept of "uniqueness" is a better understanding of what is trying to be communicated by that term, for indeed Isaac was unique the son of the promise that God made to Abraham when God told Abraham that Sarah would give him a son.

- About David the bible says" The lord has said unto me. Thou art my son, this day have i begotten thee(psalm2:3)

Again, you see the concept of "uniqueness" is more appropriate here than is biological progeny.

b) Son of God

- Thus says the lord that, israel is my son even my first born(exodus 4:22)

Another case in which an English phrase needs to be understood in terms of the connotations involved in the original language. Here God is speaking in figurative language to Moses.

c) God as husband

-For thy Maker is thy husband; the Lord of hosts is his name and thy redeemer the holy one of Israel.(isaiah 54:5)

- The Church is known as the Bride of Christ

Again it is figurative language, the nature of the relationship between Christ and his church is a model for the type of relationship a husband and wife should have. That is Christ gave his life for the church (or its people anyway) and the church should be submissive to Christ in the way brides of that era were expected to be submissive to their husbands.

[suffiyan007]

huhu...why the christian bow down to the sculpture of MAry and Jesus...oh mother mary pray for us....why we must begged Mary to pray for and jesus also...-please help me jesus....pray for me....u r my saviour and Lord?...why jesus are saviour...jesus just a messenger of God and He show the way to worship God, one God.only god...we should pray straight to God..Does Jesus and Mary Really hear christian prays? only one true God hear who prays! on Era of the century of mARy and JEsus can help people to pray....cause MAry still alive and Jesus teaching his disciples...cause now mary and jesus no more here, how can they pray for us? we must pray for ourselves... and muslim dont pray through to muhammad,but pray straight to Allah...no need to cry to mary and jesus sculptures please them to pray for us.nonsense! we must help ourselves, we born alone,we eat alone,we die alone,we sleep alone,and etc...no one will help us to do things..if not we do it ourselves.

[Grace Seeker]

Does these make sense?


trinity are making people crazy....

if there're 3 god...the world r fighting for God position..anyone also wanna be king....huhu

Yes, they do.

The first is a bit of liturgy used in the Catholic church. The prayer is not offered to Mary as worship. Rather it is actually composed of two parts. The beginning is simply quoting the angel's greeting to Mary at the point where the angel shared with her that she was going to be pregnant with Jesus. The second half of it is a request asking for Mary to pray on the individual's behalf just as I have already explained above.

The middle prayer is taken directly from scripture. Jesus is the one who taught his disciples to pray this way. If Jesus taught it, it is not surprise that we would maintain the practice.

The last is an adaptation of statements made about Jesus in scripture and put together in this liturgical prayer.



As all of these are basically taken from scripture, it makes total sense to me for people in the church to use them. Do you not quote the Qur'an in your Islamic prayers? If that makes sense to you, why would it not make sense to quote the Bible in ours?



I do understand why the Trinity might be making you crazy if you perceive it as talking about three different gods. Be assured that it isn't. The Trinity in no wise is meant to speak of three different gods at all. Rather it is an proclamation that there is only one God. You might see us worship the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit (and by the way you will never see a true Christian worship Mary), but we are not worshipping three gods when we do this. All three persons are but one being, so we are still worshipping just one God. I think some people think of three persons as if they were three individuals (a very western concept), but we do not mean three individuals when we speak of the three persons of the one God. Perhaps it would be better for those who are confused in that way to think of three personas (as opposed to thinking in terms of persons)? No doubt you have probably noticed how a single individual can have different personas depending on the situation in which he finds him/herself. So, if persona helps you to better understand, then think that way rather than of persons. For Christians DO NOT worship three different gods, but only the one true God, the God of Abraham. It is just that he is known to us in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but still just one God. There is no fighting for position for no matter who you name, there is just one king.

huhu...why the christian bow down to the sculpture of MAry and Jesus...oh mother mary pray for us....why we must begged Mary to pray for and jesus also...-please help me jesus....pray for me....u r my saviour and Lord?...why jesus are saviour...jesus just a messenger of God and He show the way to worship God, one God.only god...we should pray straight to God..Does Jesus and Mary Really hear christian prays? only one true God hear who prays! on Era of the century of mARy and JEsus can help people to pray....cause MAry still alive and Jesus teaching his disciples...cause now mary and jesus no more here, how can they pray for us? we must pray for ourselves... and muslim dont pray through to muhammad,but pray straight to Allah...no need to cry to mary and jesus sculptures please them to pray for us.nonsense! we must help ourselves, we born alone,we eat alone,we die alone,we sleep alone,and etc...no one will help us to do things..if not we do it ourselves.

Some of your statements regarding Christians are not true. And the answer to other question is simple -- it is because we simply believe differently than Muslims.

I have explained about the prayers. I have said that only some Christians practice praying "to" (but really through) Mary. And for them it isn't a "must", it is simply a preference, in the same way that you might prefer to ask your brother to pray for you.

The reason we pray to Jesus is because he is God. If you don't accept that latter, then of course you wouldn't pray to him. No Christian would pray to Muhammad either. Muhammad doesn't measure up to Jesus (at least not from a Christian perspective). Jesus is more than just a prophet. Jesus is not simply a messenger. Jesus is himself the message, he is the living Word of God become incarnate among us. Jesus is Muhammad, the Qur'an, and Allah all wrapped up into one being. That is shirk to your understanding, but it very simply explains why Christians worship and pray to Jesus.

As for idols, any idols, Christians do not worship idols of any sort. If you see someone doing this, please stop them, remind them that this is not Christian practice. Of course, that doesn't mean that the presence of statutes are bad, because we don't recognize them to be genuine manifestations of the person. They are just pieces of rock (or wood or some other material) nothing more. They are not objects of worship, but only objects of art the same as any painting or photograph.


I disagree with your last set of comments most vociferously:

we must help ourselves, we born alone,we eat alone,we die alone,we sleep alone,and etc...no one will help us to do things..if not we do it ourselves.

If Christians were to call something shirk, this would be it. It is totally untrue that we must help ourselves, for in fact we cannot ever help ourselves. Rather we are totally dependent on God, not ourselves, for whatever we need both in this life and in the next. The sooner one comes to that realization and quits trying to make it to God on one's own, and instead seeks God's help in life the better off one will be.

[MustafaMc]

I believe nearly all people, including Muslims that I have prayed alongside in Friday prayers, have such mnemonic devices.

Could you clarify what you mean by this statement about "mnemonic devices"?

[Grace Seeker]

Sure. A mnemonic device is one relating to, assisting, or intended to assist the memory.


This is taken from the New Advent Encyclopedia which has a lengthy article on the "Sign of the Cross":

A term applied to various manual acts, liturgical or devotional in character, which have this at least in common: that by the gesture of tracing two lines intersecting at right angles they indicate symbolically the figure of Christ's cross.

Most commonly and properly the words "sign of the cross" are used of the large cross traced from forehead to breast and from shoulder to shoulder, such as Catholics are taught to make upon themselves when they begin their prayers, and such also as the priest makes at the foot of the altar when he commences Mass with the words: "In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti". (At the beginning of Mass the celebrant makes the sign of the cross by placing his left hand extended under his breast; then raising his right to his forehead, which he touches with the extremities of his fingers, he says: In nomine Patris; then, touching his breast with the same hand, he says: et Filii; touching his left and right shoulders, he says; et Spiritus Sancti; and as he joins his hands again adds: Amen.)

This phrase, in Latin, can also be rendered in English as follows: "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen." The joining of them together serves to remind the devotionate whom they are worshipping when they worship God.



In attendance at Friday prayers in mosques I have noticed that there are ritualized patterns of body language that also convey meaning. (If they had no meaning why would we ritualize them?) For instance, getting prostrate reminds us of who we are before God.

[MustafaMc]

Sure. A mnemonic device is one relating to, assisting, or intended to assist the memory....

In attendance at Friday prayers in mosques I have noticed that there are ritualized patterns of body language that also convey meaning. (If they had no meaning why would we ritualize them?) For instance, getting prostrate reminds us of who we are before God.

Yes, there are definitely ritualized actions and postures in the Islamic salah, but I would not say that they "assist the memory".

The Islamic salah is performed according to how Prophet Muhammad prayed 1400 years ago and our intention is to perform it exactly how he did. This reminds me of the disciples question to Jesus before he told them to pray the Lord's Prayer.

Some actions and postures such as standing with the head bowed, bowing at the waist and prostration on the floor/ground are signs of humility before One of exceedingly greater rank, but I am unsure of the meaning of raising the hands to shoulder level or sitting in a particular posture. I understand that pointing with the right index finger while sitting symbolizes the Unity of Allah. In this case, I would say these are symbolic rather than mnemonic gestures.

[suffiyan007]

i believe in MustafaMc, i wonder why That christianity start with trinity?
Name of the father,and the son and the holy spirit.Amen! does this make sense....why Christianity that God begetteth the Son...God created Adam...that means Adam is 1st son of God, JEsus 2nd son of God...cause They dont have father...and born to the world.and God is his father.pretty funny that mother mary is mother of God....mother mary is daughter of omran and hannah...!how she can be mother of God...she just normal human.she **** and urine also... so Mary is the mother to God....so mary is stronger than God? it is?

[Grace Seeker]

In this case, I would say these are symbolic rather than mnemonic gestures.

OK. I agree with you regarding their emphasis. I just happen to personally see these as two sides of the same coin, but I will not split hairs over it.

[Keltoi]

i believe in MustafaMc, i wonder why That christianity start with trinity?
Name of the father,and the son and the holy spirit.Amen! does this make sense....why Christianity that God begetteth the Son...God created Adam...that means Adam is 1st son of God, JEsus 2nd son of God...cause They dont have father...and born to the world.and God is his father.pretty funny that mother mary is mother of God....mother mary is daughter of omran and hannah...!how she can be mother of God...she just normal human.she **** and urine also... so Mary is the mother to God....so mary is stronger than God? it is?

I take it you didn't bother to read Grace Seeker's response to this? Sometimes it helps to actually read the answer to your question before posting the same question again.

[suffiyan007]

Ya, i had agreed. i just commenting...:-


A'uzubillahi minas syaitanir rajim....


Why in christian have such of idols like St. John,St.Joseph,St.Jude and etc paintings....do we know how they look like? or are the painting same like what the painter vision? we can't simply make some analisys of the painting is the pictures of that person...even we cant craft the sculptures of Mary and Jesus in the Church. Christian believe they pray to God....but why they must still put the idols,painting,or sculptures in the church...by the mean,Nothing can put except the name of God,YahWeh...jews and Christian God. Just the Yahweh writing in hebrew should be put in the jews temples and christian church...and state Yesus(Jesus) in hebrew as a prophet of God...nothing we can pray through a messenger to God or through saint to God...Just BoW down and Surrender to God.... submit yourself to God....? Why christian speaks in English not in neither Roman nor Hebrews? cause stated that Religion oF jews and christian...So they follower should be able to speak hebrews/roman.Recite the Torah,psalm and bible in hebrew? why in English? where is your Holy Books? can anyone tell me.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Suffiyan007;967488]

Why christian speaks in English not in neither Roman nor Hebrews? .

Lol how old are you, this is my first question.
Then think again,do all christians speak in english? Those in Brazil and Kenya also? Those in Syria and Germany too? What about those in Egypt and France?

So they follower should be able to speak hebrews/roman.Recite the Torah,psalm and bible in hebrew? why in English? where is your Holy Books? can anyone tell me.

Do all muslims know arabic?

[suffiyan007]

i means why the jews and christians dont recite their holy books in hebrews...and their holy books in in English....in muslim We have Quran in Arabic and we have translation book of Quran in English those who dont understand meaning in arabic....we have tafseer....Quran...? i know religion and race are differents...i just to impliment that Why Bible in English not Hebrew....the Holy bible that now holding by christian and jews are English translation not the origin books?

[Amadeus85]

Maybe because a sentence "A jewish rabbi Jesus Christ died on a cross and ressurected and appeared to be Son of God" means the same in hebrew, greek, english and german.

[suffiyan007]

yeah i agreed...but i want the Qriginal book of torah,psalm and injil(bible) in hebrews...not translation version of bible in english,chinese and etc...i also have Malay language quran translation, chinese quran translation and english translation quran....u know the the bible meaning english...in modern holy bible...but must to know how to recite your holy books in Hebrews? understand what i gonna say?

[glo]

yeah i agreed...but i want the Qriginal book of torah,psalm and injil(bible) in hebrews...not translation version of bible in english,chinese and etc...i also have Malay language quran translation, chinese quran translation and english translation quran....u know the the bible meaning english...in modern holy bible...but must to know how to recite your holy books in Hebrews? understand what i gonna say?

Greetings, Suffiyan

This topic is really not very much connected with the topic of this thread. It may be better to start another thread, or to ask a question about it in the 'Questions for Christians' thread.

To answer your questions very briefly, you have to understand that Christians don't look at the Bible in the same way Muslims look at the Qu'ran. You simply cannot compare the two. Trying to do so will only lead to confusion ...

The Bible does not claim to be God's dictated word (as the Qu'ran does).
The Bible shows the history os God's relationship with his people.
It tells us about Jesus' life, his teachings and his death and resurrection.

The message of the Bible remains the same - regardless of the language it is printed in.
We do not believe that God gave us the Bible in his 'divine language', and we have to preserve it like that.
We believe that God gave us the Bible message to share with as many people as possible - whichever language that may be!

I hope this helps you understand.

Salaam :)

[suffiyan007]

understood.thanks Glo...!

[glo]

^ You are welcome, Suffiyan

[AntiKarateKid]

Ya, i had agreed. i just commenting...:-


A'uzubillahi minas syaitanir rajim....


Why in christian have such of idols like St. John,St.Joseph,St.Jude and etc paintings....do we know how they look like? or are the painting same like what the painter vision? we can't simply make some analisys of the painting is the pictures of that person...even we cant craft the sculptures of Mary and Jesus in the Church. Christian believe they pray to God....but why they must still put the idols,painting,or sculptures in the church...by the mean,Nothing can put except the name of God,YahWeh...jews and Christian God. Just the Yahweh writing in hebrew should be put in the jews temples and christian church...and state Yesus(Jesus) in hebrew as a prophet of God...nothing we can pray through a messenger to God or through saint to God...Just BoW down and Surrender to God.... submit yourself to God....? Why christian speaks in English not in neither Roman nor Hebrews? cause stated that Religion oF jews and christian...So they follower should be able to speak hebrews/roman.Recite the Torah,psalm and bible in hebrew? why in English? where is your Holy Books? can anyone tell me.

Honestly brother, I have a hard time following your walls of text. Could you make it more concise?

[Grace Seeker]

Why in christian have such of idols like St. John,St.Joseph,St.Jude and etc paintings

They are not idols.

....do we know how they look like?

We don't know what they looked like, nor do we pretend that these pictures are really what they looked like. They are merely an artists representation of an idea that they happen to have in their own mind.

even we cant craft the sculptures of Mary and Jesus in the Church.

Why can't you?

[quote[Christian believe they pray to God....but why they must still put the idols,painting,or sculptures in the church[/quote] It is not something they must do. It is something they want to do.

...by the mean,Nothing can put except the name of God,YahWeh...jews and Christian God. Just the Yahweh writing in hebrew should be put in the jews temples and christian church...and state Yesus(Jesus) in hebrew as a prophet of God...

Who says? Now you are trying to dictate to us how we are to practice our faith? God never said any of these things to us and we are not going to listen to your instructions for neither you nor Muhammad is our prophet.

nothing we can pray through a messenger to God or through saint to God...Just BoW down and Surrender to God.... submit yourself to God....?

I believe that most Christians you will find have a desire to submit their lives to God, those who don't aren't truly Christian. But what God has asked us to do is different than what you believe God has asked you to do. So of course our behaviors are different than yours. It doesn't mean that we are not submitting to God, but that God has spoken different to us than to you. If you suggest that God would not speak differently to different people, then there is no need for additional prophets, just the message from the earlier ones. If you accept that God could speak differently to different people, then those who are listening to "prophet" Jesus (your term, certianly not mine) are under his authority and not Muhammad. If you still think we are in error, well isn't that our problem, because we happen to think you are.

Why christian speaks in English not in neither Roman nor Hebrews? cause stated that Religion oF jews and christian...So they follower should be able to speak hebrews/roman.Recite the Torah,psalm and bible in hebrew?

Why should we? People speak the language they are born speaking? God's word can be translated for the benefit of people, it is not necessary for people to learn to speak the languages that it was originally written in. Of course it is helpful for those who want to study it most closely to be able to speak and read in those original languages, but for the majority of people it is good enough to read it in English or Spanish or Chinese -- it makes no difference.

BTW, there is no language called Roman. The Romans spoke Latin, and the Roman Catholic Church did use Latin for a long time, but the Bible wasn't ever written in Latin (Roman) so I don't know why you suggested it.

Why English?

For the same reason that you will find interpretations of the Qur'an in English.

where is your Holy Books? can anyone tell me.

Yes, on my bookshelf.

[glo]

where is your Holy Books? can anyone tell me.

Yes, on my bookshelf.

... and one by the side of my bed, one downloaded on the computer, and one in my bag which I take with me wherever I go ... :D

[suffiyan007]

very well you have a real strong anwsered...i agreed with you...! about what u had told...Grace Seeker bro...! i just as a commentator to give my opinions to the forum:God had sent about 20,000 thousand prophets to the israelites.Neither Jews nor Christian obey their prophets. zechariah(zakariya)the jews had call him Liar prophet who be his follower will die...and the the Jews always fight with their opponent as enemy.Mary is purest women salute for her holiness,she still virgin but bear child,the jews mocking on her for her bad attitude that she bear a child without a husband..."she said, how shall i have a son,seeing that no man has touched me,and I am not unchaste". but at last the the angel sent the words to Mary that she bear a child...she need to leave Jerusalem to Bathelehem.She walks alone to Bathelehem...and born a child beneath the "palm tree" and a baby was come, called Jesus..there came a messiah.He will be the prophet of Israel welcome the Jesus....! why the Jews mocking mary cause she been unclean,that she have zinaa with man..and born a child...for a power of God.."Said it will be,it will be....and the creation of God held in the world.We must believe God Create his creation full of miracle...Even a man can turn to be a stone, or a man can turn into salt stone..! and etc...nothing is stronger Than God...!" Kun Fayakun"... i saw a fish body have stated "Allah" on the body and i saw a cat also stated "Allah" on the fur...our hand also stated 99 beauty name of Allah,why our finger have short and long...cause Allah name is revealed on our palm!... ! the ahzab are near for rejects faith and for who "Taqwa" to Allah will have a glad tiding from God...so u wanna accept or not...is your will..! but i gonna tell you...i have a friend who are a christian priest convert to muslim...!hope Allah will guide him!....insyaallah!

" LAkum dinukum waaliya din".

:sl:

Suffiyan.:D

[suffiyan007]

THEY REJECT THE PROPHET.

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with succession of messenger; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear Signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.It is whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not,ye are puffed up with pride?- some ye calle impostors, and others ye slay! "Our hearts are wrappings (which preserve God's Word:we need no more)". Nay, God's curse is on them for their blasphemy: little is it they believe. And when there comes to them a Book fro God,comfirming what is with them,-although from of old they had prayed for victory against without faith-when there comes to them that which they should have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of God is on those without faith.Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls,in that they deny the revelation which God has sent down, in insolent envy that God of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases:thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject faith. When it is said to them,"Believe in what God hath sent down" they say,"We believe in what was sent down to us": Yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them.Say"why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times gone by,if ye did indeed believe?'There came to you Moses with clear Signs;yet ye worshipped the Calf(even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully and remember We took your convenant and we raised above you(the towering height)of Mount Sinai, saying: Hold firmly to what We have given you and hearken to the Law": they said: "We hear,we disobey." and they had to drink into their hearts of the taint of the Calf because of their faithlessness.Say:"Vile indeed are the behests of your faith if ye have any faith!". Say: " If the last Home, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then ye for death, if ye are sincere.But they will never seek for death, on account of the (Sins) which their hands have sent on before them,and God is well- acquainted with the wrong-doers.Thou wilt indeed find them,of all people,most greedy of life,- even more than the idolaters: each one of them wishes he could be given a life of a thousand years: but the grant of such life will not save him from(due) punishment.For God sees well al that they do.

[suffiyan007]

THEY REJECT THE PROPHET.

"We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with succession of messenger; We gave Jesus the son of Mary clear Signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.It is whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not,ye are puffed up with pride?- some ye calle impostors, and others ye slay! "Our hearts are wrappings (which preserve God's Word:we need no more)". Nay, God's curse is on them for their blasphemy: little is it they believe. And when there comes to them a Book fro God,comfirming what is with them,-although from of old they had prayed for victory against without faith-when there comes to them that which they should have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of God is on those without faith.Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls,in that they deny the revelation which God has sent down, in insolent envy that God of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases:thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject faith. When it is said to them,"Believe in what God hath sent down" they say,"We believe in what was sent down to us": Yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them.Say"why then have ye slain the prophets of God in times gone by,if ye did indeed believe?'There came to you Moses with clear Signs;yet ye worshipped the Calf(even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully and remember We took your convenant and we raised above you(the towering height)of Mount Sinai, saying: Hold firmly to what We have given you and hearken to the Law": they said: "We hear,we disobey." and they had to drink into their hearts of the taint of the Calf because of their faithlessness.Say:"Vile indeed are the behests of your faith if ye have any faith!". Say: " If the last Home, with God, be for you specially, and not for anyone else, then ye for death, if ye are sincere.But they will never seek for death, on account of the (Sins) which their hands have sent on before them,and God is well- acquainted with the wrong-doers.Thou wilt indeed find them,of all people,most greedy of life,- even more than the idolaters: each one of them wishes he could be given a life of a thousand years: but the grant of such life will not save him from(due) punishment.For God sees well al that they do.(Al-baqarah 87-96)

[suffiyan007]

Their Emnity to the prophet.

Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel(angel)-for he brings down the(revelation)to thy heart by God's will,a confirmation of what went before,and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe, whoever is an enemy to God,and His His angels and his messengers,to Gabriel and Michael- lo! God is an enemy who reject faith. We have sent down to thee manifest Signs(ayat);and none reject them those who are preserve. Is it not(the case) that every time they make a convenant,some party among the throw it aside? Nay, most of them are faithless. And when there came to them a messenger from God, confirming what was with them, a party of the People of The Book threw away the Book of God behind their backs, as if(it had been something)they did not know! They followed what the evil ones gave out falsely against the power of Solomon(sulaiman):The blasphemers were,not Solomon,but the evil ones,teaching men magic,and such things as came down at Babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone such things without saying"We are only for trail, do not blaspheme".They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife.But they could not thus harm anyone except by God's permission.And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them,And they knew that the buyers of magic would have no share in the happiness of the hearafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls,if they but knew!If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil,far better had been the reward from their Lord.If they but knew!.(al-baqarah 97-102)

[suffiyan007]

previous Scriptures are abrogated


O ye of Faith! Say not(to the messenger)words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to Him): to those without faith is a grievous punishment.It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the book,nor of the pagans,that anything good should come down to you from your Lord.But God will choose for His special Mercy whom He will- For God is Lord of grace abounding.None of Our Revelation do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten,but We substitute something better or similar:knowest thou not that God hath power over all things? Knowest thou not that to God belongth the dominion of the heavens and ye earth? And besides Him ye hav neither patron nor helper.Would ye question your messenger Moses was questioned of old? But whoever changeth from faith to unbelief,hath stray without doubt from even way. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you(people) back to infidelity afte ye have believed,from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till God accomplish His purpose; for God hath power over all things. And be steadfast in praye and regular in charity:and whatever good ye send forth for your souls before you, ye shall find it with God: for God sees well all that ye do. And they say" None shall enter paradise unless he be a Jews or a christian" Those are their vain desires.Say:"produce your proof if ye are truthful". Nay- whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good- he will get his reward with his Lord.On such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.(al-baqarah 104-112)

[suffiyan007]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;967687]They are not idols.

We don't know what they looked like, nor do we pretend that these pictures are really what they looked like. They are merely an artists representation of an idea that they happen to have in their own mind.


very well, we can't have a such vision in the drawing or painting.the painting of Jesus is truly jesus potret...! we can assume that. for example:

Zechariah: the painter can draw zechariah is a skinhead, wearing silk cloths..and even have and angry face or happy face...the vision in our mind can imagine who zechariah looks like...for the best we must witness the real look Zechariah....then we can draw...if not is call fitnah!...really haram in fatwa...is muslim we cant draw or painting prophets picture....we only allow to painting prophets names.No one can know someone look like if we dont see him/her?

[suffiyan007]

After the creation of Adam, just one original message has been repeatedly delivered to mankind throughout the history of humanity.
Thus,to remind people about it and bring them back to track,many prophets and messengers including Adam, Noah,Abraham,Moses,JEsus,and muhammad were sent by the only true God to convey this mesage:

"The true God is only ONE. Worship Him ALONE and keep His commandments."

The True God,The Creator.

Sent to convey
_____ _________

Adam God is one

Noah God is one

Abraham God is one

Moses God is one

Jesus God is one

Muhammad God is one


God sent these major prophets as well as other prophets messengers to accomplish several tasks and missions,sone of which are:

1. To receive guidance from God and deliver it to people
2. To convey the message that God is One.
3. To be sole models to their people
4. To instruct their people to fear God and keep His Commandments
5. To teach their followers important religious and moral and worldly matters.
6. To guide those who deviated, disobeyed God,or worshipped other gods or idols.
7.To tell about their final destination(The Last Day) and what leads to paradise or Hellfire.


It is the same God who created and sent those prophets and messengers. He is the Creator of all humans, all animals,and all objects. It is this ONE TRUE GOD who created the who universe(including nature) and all it contains.He is the Creator of Life,deathg,and life after death.

The Oneness of this true God, the Creator,is clearly evident and easily traceable in the holy scriptures of the Jews, Christian,Muslim and others.


Studying the concept of God in the Bible and Quran sincere and objectives, a sincere seeker of truth would be able to discern the unique qualities belonging to the true God only.

Some of the qualities that distinguish only true God from others who claim to be God are:

a) This true God is Creator, not created.
b) This true God is ONE,not three or more! He has no partners nor equals.
c) This one true God in invisible; no one can see Him in this life. He is not physically manifested or incarnated in other forms.
d) This one true God is eternal:He does not die or change.
e) This one true God is not in need of anyone like a mother,wife,or a son; or anything like food,drink,or help. But others are in nee of Him.
f) This one true God is unique in His attributes; no one is like Him.No human or animal descriptions can be attributed to Him.

We can use these criteria and qualities(as well as other ones belonging to Him alone)in examining and rejecting any claims of being God.

Now let me turn to discuss the one message mentioned above and cite some of the biblical and Quranic verses confirming the Oneness of God

But before that, I would like to share with you this thought:

Some Christians might wonder, " It is obvious that God is one. We believe in one God.So whar is th point?".

However,based on a great deal of reading and studying materials on:

Christianity and dialogues with many Christians, I came to understand what "they perceive this One God to include".:

1. God the Father.
2. God the Son.
3. God the Holy spirit.

So,based on common sense and logic, a sincere and honest seeker of the truth could reason:

1. What do you mean by saying that GOD is One,While you refer to THREE GODS?

2. Is God One in Three or Three in One(1 in 3 or 3 in 1)...????!

In addition to that and according to Christian dogmas,these three"God" have different identities,images,role, and functions:

1. God the Father= The Creator.
2. God the Son = The saviour
3. God the holy spirit=the counselor.

By the way, if Jesus,God the son(or son of god) is really God or part of the One God,doesn't this contradict what the Bible itself reports that no one can see God,nor hear His voice? The Bible states:

- You have never heard his voice nor seen his face.(John 5:37)
- No one has ever seen Him.And no one can see him.(1 timothy 6:16)
- No one can see me and stay alive(exodus 33:20)

Based on these and other biblical texts, I sincerely and honestly ask: "How can we reconcile the dogma that Jesus is God and the Biblical testimony that no one has ever seen God, nor heard His Voice?".

Didn't the Jews at his time,his family and his followers SEE Jesus(God the Son,as some believe!).and hear his voice?

> Is there any secre or hidden purpose concerning the truth about God?


In the Bible,the true God emphatically testifies,
"I am the Lord,and there is no other God. I have not spoken in secret or kept my purpose hidden... I am the Lord, and I speak the truth; I make known what is right."(isaiah 45:19)

So what is the truth? Please re-read the verse and think about it!..

Now, let us take off on a journey of seeking the truth about the one true God in the Bible and the Quran.

At the end of this journey and after your critical,sincere,honest,and thoughtful reading of the passage and particularly the verses cited below, I would like to know your reactions or view.

>>> To be as objective as possible, I cite the verses without any comment. Please read the following verses CAREFULLY,CRITICALLY,and WITHOUT ANY PRECONCEPTIONS.>>>

>>> THE ONE TRUE GOD IN THE BIBLE<<<<

(tHE OLD TESTAMENT):

1. Hear,O israel: The lord our God is one Lord.(Deutronomy 6:4)
2. Has not the one God made and sustained for us the spirit of life?(Malachi 2:15)
3. You may know and believe Me and understand that I am HE. Before Me no God was formed,nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, besides Me there is no savior/saviour.(Isaiah 43:10-11)
4. I am the first and I am the last;besides Me there is no God.Who is like me? (isaiah 44:6)
5. And there is no other god besides Me,a righteous God and a saviour;
there is none besides Me. Turn to Me and be saved...To Me every shall bow.(Isaiah 45:21-23)

>>>THESE ARE JUST SOME VERSES FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT<<<<

Can you think of other similar ones?


THE ONE TRUE GOD IN THE BIBLE(THE NEW TESTAMENT):

1. One cam and said unto him,Good Master,what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he(Jesus) said unto Him,Why callest thou me good?There is none good but one, that is God.(Matthew 19:16-17.King James version).

2. Now this is life eternal,that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ,whom you have sent.(John 17:3)

3. Worship the Lord your God,and serve Him only.(Matthew 4:10)

4. Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is One Lord.(Mark 12:29)

5. For there is One God and there is one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus.(Timothy 2:5)

>>>Can you recall other verses that "GOD I ONLY ONE"?(NOT THREE(3)!!!)<<<


THE ONE TRUE GOD IN THE QURAN


-Say: He is Allah, the One; Allah the Eternal,Absolute;He begets not, nor is he
begotten; and there is none like unto Him.(Al-ikhlas 1-4)

-There is no God but I;worship Me.(21:25)

- They disbelieve who say: Allah(God) is one of three,for there is no God except One God.If they desist not from their word(of blasphemy),verily,a grieveous chastisement will befall the disbeliever among them.(5:73)


- Can there be another God besides Allah(God)? Nay, most of them know not.(27:61)

- Can there be another God besides Allah (God)? Nay, " Bring forth your proof, if ye are telling the truth!(27:64)


>>>Indeed, this message concerning the "Oneness of God(i.e, Tauheed in Arabic) is the essential theme of the Quran.<<<


Conclucion of my analysys...

These verse as well as hundreds of similar piece of evidence in Bible and Quran confirm this one,eternal message that "the true God is only ONE".

"Turn to me now and be saved,people all over the world! I AM THE ONLY GOD THERE IS." (isaiah 45:22).

Not only does te Bible affirm that God is only ONE, but it is also reveals that the true God,the Creator,is the "ONLY SAVIOUR"

"Before me no God was formed, nor shall there be any after me, I am the Lord,and besides me there is no Saviour." (Isaiah 43:10-11).

So according to this affirmation, all other supposed gods or deities like Jesus,Holy Spirit,Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva,Krishna or Buddha are neither Gods nor manifesttations of the ONE TRUE GOD.

It was because of such false beliefs that after the Jews worshipped other gods,"The Lord's anger burned against them."(Numbers 25:3)
Likewise,Moses destroyed the golden calf.

On the other hand,the essenes,an early Christian unitaria community,endured torture and persecution because they refused to exchange Jesus's monotheistic teachings for the Paulin innovation of the trinity.

To sum up, all God's prophets including Adam,Noah,Abraham,Moses,Jesus,and Muhammad were sent by the same God,The Creator to convey the same message:

>>>> The true God is the only ONE.Worship Him ALONE and Keep His commandments<<<<

And since those prophets and messengers preached the same one message, their religion must be the same one! So, what is the religion of those prophets and messengers?

Submission to the Will of God is the essense of the message of those prophets.This word "SUBMISSION" means "ISLAM" in Arabic.

The Quran does confirm that "Islam" is the true religion of all God's prophets and messengers.This Quranic fact is traceable in the Bible itself!.

Ultimately, to attain salvation, we must receive and believe in the above mentioned message willingly and wholeheartedly.Nevertheless,doing this is not enough! We must also believe in all God's true prophets(including Prophet Muhammad) and follow their true guidance and teachings.This is the gateway to a happy,eternal life!.

So, if you are a sincer seeker of truth and lover of Salvation,you might to consider this NOW,before it is too late! BEFORE DEATH. IT CAN BE SOON! WHO KNOWS?

FINAL THOUGHT

>>> Those who are sincere, honest,serious,objective,and open minded in seeking the truth,after thinking critically about this one message,they may ask questions like:

So,What is the truth?

What can I do?

you CAN sincerely believe in your only true God(Allah),believe in His last messenger,and utter the following:

"I testify that there is no god worthy of worship but the One true God(Allah) and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God(Allah)..."

>>> This testimony is the 1st step on the way to eternal life and the real key to the gate of paradise.<<<

If you decide to take this way,you can contact your muslim friend,the nearest islamic center,or me(i will be very happy to help).


YAY! YAY!


YES,YOU CAN DO IT...!


Brief Definitions of Major islamic TErms

A) ALLAH
- The proper Name of the one true God,the Creator. Allah is the true God of all mankind( JEWS, CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM,HINDUS,ETC)

B) MUHAMMAD

- The last prophet of the one True God(Allah)

c) Islam

- Submission to Will of the cReator,the true God(Allah). One can attain real happiness and peace of mind only through submission and obedience to the true God.

d) Muslim
- One who submits to the Will of the true God.

e) Quran
- The Word of God revealed to Prophet Muhammad pbuh...



insyaallah Allah guide all our non-muslim bros and sis...!

[SirZubair]

There are christians out there who are very similar to those who follow The Barelwi Version Of Islam, they believe that Jesus(as) was not 'Human in flesh, he was simply a spirit" as the Barelwis believe that Muhammed (saw) was not human in flesh either.

Guys, when we utter "Jesus", can we all please make an effort to end it with "A.S", out of respect to all of Allahs messengers, Insha'allah.

[suffiyan007]

insyaallah....

[Grace Seeker]

After the creation of Adam, just one original message has been repeatedly delivered to mankind throughout the history of humanity.
Thus,to remind people about it and bring them back to track,many prophets and messengers including Adam, Noah,Abraham,Moses,JEsus,and muhammad were sent by the only true God to convey this mesage:

You are of course entitled to hold to that opinion, but make no mistake about it, it is just that, opinion. By faith you belief it to be true, but I don't expect that you nor anyone else can actually prove that it is true. I and (despite SirZubair's comments) the majority of Christians, on the other hand, believe something very different. I like to say "I know" that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that one can have life in his name -- but as Mustafa correctly pointed out, even though it feels like "knowing" to me, I can't categorically and undeniably prove it either, so both of us are left with what we believe to be true and those beliefs are different from each other on many (though not all) points. And while you assert that my beliefs are a deviation from the truth, I claim the same in response to your beliefs. We either learn to respect this about each other or we end up in conflict and there has been entirely too much conflict in our past. Hopefully discussions on these boards can help move us toward mutual understanding rather than mutual condemnation.

[glo]

And while you assert that my beliefs are a deviation from the truth, I claim the same in response to your beliefs. We either learn to respect this about each other or we end up in conflict and there has been entirely too much conflict in our past. Hopefully discussions on these boards can help move us toward mutual understanding rather than mutual condemnation.

Amen to that, Grace Seeker.

[James1992]

It Could Be Either Go To A Church And Ask...

[suffiyan007]

:bump: i am here to explained not to debate..i as a commentator to put my commentation to say....:

there are no such thing of "Trinity"....

<<<God is Father, God is son, God is spirit >>>

God can transform to be a son,father or spirit...for a God to entered the wo earth need a wide place for him to enter...even the earth will be earthquake...No such thing...the pope paulus has fool the followers...! he begged the people listen to his lies..!...insyaallah God will guide the non-muslim to get back the right track to Submit themselves to Allah.:bump:

[James1992]

I Would Probabely Guess God..

[Grace Seeker]

:bump: i am here to explained not to debate

Right. BTW, anyone want to buy a nice bridge stretching from Manhattan into Brooklyn?

[MustafaMc]

And while you assert that my beliefs are a deviation from the truth, I claim the same in response to your beliefs. We either learn to respect this about each other or we end up in conflict and there has been entirely too much conflict in our past. Hopefully discussions on these boards can help move us toward mutual understanding rather than mutual condemnation.

I agree with you, GraceSeeker. We each believe that we have the Truth and the other is in error. One thing for us Muslims to remember is that Christian who come to this forum are under constant attack that their beliefs are wrong, as I myself have done my fair share to point out what I see are errors in Christian doctrine. Yet some Christians have persisted in staying here, apparently because they believe that they are doing some good to build a common understanding with Muslims. Although I don't agree with some of their beliefs, discussion on this forum has helped me to see where they are coming from in their understanding. I admire several Christians for their patience and courtesy in sharing their beliefs.

[glo]

I agree with you, GraceSeeker. We each believe that we have the Truth and the other is in error. One thing for us Muslims to remember is that Christian who come to this forum are under constant attack that their beliefs are wrong, as I myself have done my fair share to point out what I see are errors in Christian doctrine. Yet some Christians have persisted in staying here, apparently because they believe that they are doing some good to build a common understanding with Muslims. Although I don't agree with some of their beliefs, discussion on this forum has helped me to see where they are coming from in their understanding. I admire several Christians for their patience and courtesy in sharing their beliefs.

Those are kind words, Mustafa.
Thank you. :)

I have the benefit of being part of a Christian forum too, and I spend a fair bit of time in the Comparative Religions forum there.
There, non-Christians complain about being bombarded by Christian evangelising, rather than it being respected that they have different beliefs!
There, too, Christians complain about non-Christians being allowed to promote their own faith, when it is, after all, a Christian forum!
The experience has greatly helped me to see things from both perspectives.

I guess people could visit forums of a different religion to their own for several reasons:

1. They want to explore another faith, perhaps even with the possibility of converting.
2. They want to evangelise their own faith.
3. They want to build bridges and improve understanding between the faiths.

I have learned that heavy-handed dawah/evangelising is really entirely ineffective!

People from group 1 are more likely to look in those sections which explain the religion they are interested in (in this case 'Learning about Islam')

People from group 2 are likely to dive head-first into the debate, allowing it to escalate into a heated argument pretty quickly ... which often leaves both sides hardened, and even less likely to attempt to see each other's point of view.

People from group 3 are likely to simply ignore it and walk away from something that it pointless. We can only try to talk about our faiths, when the other party is genuinely interested in listening, and open to hear views which they may strongly disagree with.

The funny thing is that somebody who is as eager and zealous to make Christians see the 'error of their ways' as Suffiyan, may have exactly the opposite effect on his listeners. So instead of getting people interested in Islam, he is more likely to put them off ...

I have learned more about Islam in harmonious exchanges with people like yourself, which allow both parties to equally express their beliefs, than I will ever learn from confused bombardments of ill-constructed posts, which sometimes don't seem to make any sense at all ...

I find that those meaningful exchanges are often better made easier via PM, rather than in the public forums, where they can be escalated so easily ...

Salaam :)

[suffiyan007]

i am not picking on someone or find fault with someone.i just give my opinion and explaination between Islam and Christian.... for the sake of Allah. I do respect on people religions and I just explained what was in Islam and Christian.I dont care who side who...! is my job to complete my mission as muslim or caliph of Allah..to give a short Dakwah...to people.I am doing my path to the way of Allah. I didnt Force people to believe me. I am just corrected my iman/faith to God. i dont wanna know who religion is right or wrong..? i just wanna ask why in christian trinity concept.
<<< God is Father,God is son, God is Spirit>>>. to make it clear....Why should a God transform be Father and Son to human,and transform back to Spirit as origin..be God back..! are these God transform to be Batman,superman,spider...after that transform to the origin..Quite funny...For a God to enter the Earth need time and space for him to enter..if God success to enter the Earth there will be earthquake,and hurricane...does it make sense?

[mkh4JC]

i just wanna ask why in christian trinity concept.
<<< God is Father,God is son, God is Spirit>>>. [/B]to make it clear....Why should a God transform be Father and Son to human,and transform back to Spirit as origin..be God back..! are these God transform to be Batman,superman,spider...after that transform to the origin..Quite funny...For a God to enter the Earth need time and space for him to enter..if God success to enter the Earth there will be earthquake,and hurricane...does it make sense?

God is triune in nature and yet still one, just as we human beings are triune in nature and are still one. Let's look at a verse in the Old Testament:

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the firsh of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' Genesis 1: 26.

So we as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God; and because we are triune and nature and yet are still one, so too is God. So our very makeup testifies to the Trinity.

You can also look at verses like this in the Old Testament:

'The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.' Psalms 110: 1. Which Jesus referenced to the Pharisees here: 'Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, til I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.' Matthew: 22: 42-46.

[Grace Seeker]

i i just wanna ask why in christian trinity concept.
<<< God is Father,God is son, God is Spirit>>>. to make it clear....Why should a God transform be Father and Son to human,and transform back to Spirit as origin..be God back..! are these God transform to be Batman,superman,spider...after that transform to the origin..Quite funny...For a God to enter the Earth need time and space for him to enter..if God success to enter the Earth there will be earthquake,and hurricane...does it make sense?

Suffiyan, your question assumes many things that are not actually a part of our understanding of the Trinity. Among the things that you assume that are NOT true are the followinng:

1) That God is being transformed from one thing to another.
2) That God becomes a part of time and space simply because he enters it.
3) That the incarnation of God in Jesus makes him a limited finite being.
4) That the incarnation of God would be a destructive event bringing calamities to the earth.

None of these ideas that you think are a part of or would be consequences of the Trinity are actually held to be true by Christians. Hence your questions and objections to it don't make sense to us. That's not a personal attack on you, I find it often true that those who object most vocifierously against the Trinity often do so on points that aren't actually a part of proper understanding of what is meant by speaking of God in trinitarian terms. How can I help you to understand our meaning better? Do you actually want to understand? If so, I am willing to do my best to explain what we mean by it and how it helps us to better understand who God is and how he acts in this world.

[------]

I find the Trinity unrealistic to be honest. It aint mentioned anywhere in the bible btw. :-\

[suffiyan007]

Serene, i agreed. i am getting tired of explains to people...Serene..! thanks for your help..haha. trinity<<<GOD IS FATHER,GOD IS SON,GOD IS HOLY SPIRIT>>>>

[------]

Brother I know what the Trinity is, I studied it at A Level in college. Your concept is incorrect.


The trinity is:


The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God


Not the way you said it.


The way the Christian priests try to explain the trinity is not very clear, and there are gaping holes in it. They say that it is like a Water molecule [Solid, Liquid Gas] it has 3 different forms. However this can be refuted by saying that although [by their saying] God takes 3 different forms, the concept is still not correct.


This is because when water takes form of a solid/liquid/gas, the properties of the water remain the same. However if God changes His form to a human, he would have to eat, drink, take medicine and human stuff to stay alive. He is a Unnecessary being. This is in contradiction with the properties of God because He is an Necessary being, He does not need anyone or does not depend on anyone.


Hence, the contradiction.


Btw, the above explanation is from a Dr. Zakir Naik lecture.

[john316]

Brother I know what the Trinity is, I studied it at A Level in college. Your concept is incorrect.

The trinity is:

The Father is God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirit is God

Not the way you said it.

The way the Christian priests try to explain the trinity is not very clear, and there are gaping holes in it. They say that it is like a Water molecule [Solid, Liquid Gas] it has 3 different forms. However this can be refuted by saying that although [by their saying] God takes 3 different forms, the concept is still not correct.

This is because when water takes form of a solid/liquid/gas, the properties of the water remain the same. However if God changes His form to a human, he would have to eat, drink, take medicine and human stuff to stay alive. He is a necessary being. This is in contradiction with the properties of God because He is an Unnecessary being, He does not need anyone or does not depend on anyone.

Hence, the contradiction.


Btw, the above explanation is from a Dr. Zakir Naik lecture.

ICE is a form of water just as Jesus is a form of GOD. Jesus has the same nature as the Father and the Holy Ghost. Ice is not a fluid. unlike water and water vapor. It is a solid. Ice has the same formula as that of water and water vapor.

Ice is H20
Water is H20
Water Vapor is H20

but it's all in all one formula. H20

[Grace Seeker]

I find the Trinity unrealistic to be honest. It aint mentioned anywhere in the bible btw. :-\

Does something have to be mentioned by name in the Bible to be realistic? Think of all the very real things that are not mentioned in any religion's set of scriptures. What scriptures mention atoms, photons, quasars? What scriptures mentions environmental warming? What scriptures mentions the countries of Saudia Arabia, Maylaysia, Great Britian, or the United States? What scriptures mention cars, television, airplanes, or the internet? Yet all of these things are real. We have observed all of these things and by observation we know them to be real. And having observed them we then have created names to identify what it is that we have observed.

The same thing is true with regard to the Trinity. It is just a name. Christains observed that God was known to them as Father. This is clear because Jesus himself taught his disciples to address God as "our Father". Of course, Jesus as not the first to call God "Father", it was a common way of speaking of God during the rabbinic period of Judaism in which Jesus lived.

Then they observed that God was known to them as a Spirit who was present in their lives. This is the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send his followers. And this concept of God as Spirit was not foreign to monotheistic Jews either, for there are references to the Spirit of God all the way back to the writings of Moses and especially in the Psalms of David and even more in the later prophets.

And then this Spirit of God revealed to them that Jesus also was God, only incarnate among them. That did require a shift in one's understanding of God, but it was not so strong a shift as to imagine that there was more than one God. There was still just one God, but God was known to them in three distinct persons. They had no name for it, yet is was something that they really observed. And today we can still observe this very truth to be present and revealed to us in the pages of the Bible.

No, the word Trinity is not to be found in the Bible. But what is found in the Bible is that God has made himself known to us in these three persons. Having both observed and experienced it in their own lives the disciples never did give a name to it, but they testified repeatedly to the truth of it. It would be a later generation that would suggest a name to describe the totality of this experience in a single word "trinitas" which we translate into the word "Trinity".

So, we don't need to find the word in the Bible for it to be true. It is merely a name identified something that we already know to be true, no matter what name one uses to describe it.



BTW, those that seek to explain the concepts identified in the term Trinity with analogies, be those with references to water, an egg, or something else are not trying to say that there are 100% parallels. They are analogies and nothing more. They teach about one (or perhaps a few) aspects of the Trinity, but they in no wise reveal all of its truth. They will break down for the very simple (and hopefully obvious) reason that they are finite illustrations of an infinite being. There is no way that they can speak all of the truth regarding God. Nor are they intended to. If one tries to make the illustration explain some aspect of God different than what it is intended to explain, the fact that the illustration fails to do so, does not reflect on the truth of God's character at all, on that any one illustration can only go so far in attempting to explain the nature of God who by his very nature of being God is beyond the comprehension of humankind.

[Keltoi]

The best way to understand the Trinity concept is to look at it in terms of personality. Three ways in which God's Will is manifest on Earth. It is described in terms of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit because that is what we as Christians believe to be true. There is only One God, who became manifest in the flesh in the form of Jesus Christ, and whose will can reside within us in the form of the Holy Spirit. All three aspects are of One God, One God who interacts with His people in different ways.

[------]

ICE is a form of water just as Jesus is a form of GOD. Jesus has the same nature as the Father and the Holy Ghost. Ice is not a fluid. unlike water and water vapor. It is a solid. Ice has the same formula as that of water and water vapor.

Ice is H20
Water is H20
Water Vapor is H20

but it's all in all one formula. H20

Greetings john316,


How can Jesus (AS) have the same formula as The Father? I'm sorry but you didn't read my post correctly. They cannot have the same formula as they have different properties!

• One is a Necessary being and the other is not.
• One needs to eat and drink, the other does not.
• One needs to satisfy desires (no offence), the other does not.
• One gets sick, the other does not.
• One grows and ages, the other does not.
• One is in the time realm, the other is not.

See the contradictions?

[Grace Seeker]

How can Jesus (AS) have the same formula as The Father? I'm sorry but you didn't read my post correctly. They cannot have the same formula as they have different properties!

• One is a Necessary being and the other is not.
• One needs to eat and drink, the other does not.
• One needs to satisfy desires (no offence), the other does not.
• One gets sick, the other does not.
• One grows and ages, the other does not.
• One is in the time realm, the other is not.

See the contradictions?

I see that you have defined necessary and unecessary beings. I suggest that Allah is a necessary being as we all need Allah. So, I think your definitions are off. I'll await your thinking on that suggestion before addressing some other ideas you expressed that I also think are misconceptions of the nature of God.

[------]

The best way to understand the Trinity concept is to look at it in terms of personality. Three ways in which God's Will is manifest on Earth. It is described in terms of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit because that is what we as Christians believe to be true. There is only One God, who became manifest in the flesh in the form of Jesus Christ, and whose will can reside within us in the form of the Holy Spirit. All three aspects are of One God, One God who interacts with His people in different ways.

Greetings Keltoi,


Why would a God, All Knowing, All Seeing, etc. NEED to manifest in the form of Jesus and Holy Spirit? He is the one who created us, so He knows what is best for us without taking forms of humans and animals.


E.g. (Another Dr. Zakir Naik example); If a person makes a video player, he will know what is right and wrong for the video player and for the person who does not know about it, he would write an instruction manual for them. The creator of the video player would not need to become the video player to see what is good/bad for it.


The same way God has given us the Qur'aan, which is our instruction manual.

[------]

I see that you have defined necessary and unecessary beings. I suggest that Allah is a necessary being as we all need Allah. So, I think your definitions are off. I'll await your thinking on that suggestion before addressing some other ideas you expressed that I also think are misconceptions of the nature of God.

Greetings Grace Seeker,


I'm sorry I got confused, it has been a couple of years since I studied this! Yes, Allaah is a Necessary Being, whilst we are Unnecessary. We depend on Him, He is dependant on no one.

[Keltoi]

Greetings Keltoi,


Why would a God, All Knowing, All Seeing, etc. NEED to manifest in the form of Jesus and Holy Spirit? He is the one who created us, so He knows what is best for us without taking forms of humans and animals.


E.g. (Another Dr. Zakir Naik example); If a person makes a video player, he will know what is right and wrong for the video player and for the person who does not know about it, he would write an instruction manual for them. The creator of the video player would not need to become the video player to see what is good/bad for it.


The same way God has given us the Qur'aan, which is our instruction manual.

God doesn't need those things, we as human beings need God. That is why Christ was sent to us, because we needed Him, not the opposite. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. It doesn't need us, we need it.

As for Dr. Zakir's analogy, it doesn't make sense in the Christian context. Jesus Christ did not need to know what was sinful, He paid the price for our sin.

[------]

God doesn't need those things, we as human beings need God. That is why Christ was sent to us, because we needed Him, not the opposite. Same goes for the Holy Spirit. It doesn't need us, we need it.

Yes, but why would God bring himself so low (excuse my choice of words), that he needed to appear in human form? I am sure God has plenty of other ways to help us?

[Keltoi]

Yes, but why would God bring himself so low (excuse my choice of words), that he needed to appear in human form? I am sure God has plenty of other ways to help us?

Because we as human beings are incapable of earning our salvation alone. There had to be an atonement. That atonement came in the body of Jesus Christ.

[------]

Because we as human beings are incapable of earning our salvation alone. There had to be an atonement. That atonement came in the body of Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry that does not make any sense either. The atonement bit. Why would Jesus die on the cross to atone for our sins? Would it not make much more sense that we be held accountable for all our actions; be rewarded for good ones and get punished for bad ones? Isn't that the whole purpose of life that makes sense? That life is a test and you will get rewarded and punished according to the deeds that you do?

P.S. Please excuse me if you do not get prompt replies to your post, I might have to go away from the computer inabit.

[Keltoi]

I'm sorry that does not make any sense either. The atonement bit. Why would Jesus die on the cross to atone for our sins? Would it not make much more sense that we be held accountable for all our actions; be rewarded for good ones and get punished for bad ones? Isn't that the whole purpose of life that makes sense? That life is a test and you will get rewarded and punished according to the deeds that you do?

From a Christian standpoint, nothing we do can earn our place in Heaven. It is only God's mercy that allows us to achieve salvation. God's mercy came in the body of Jesus Christ, who paid the ransom for sin. That doesn't give Christians free reign to sin at will, it only gives us the opportunity to achieve salvation through faith in Christ and a life dedicated to God.

[------]

Thanks for replying Keltoi.

From a Christian standpoint, nothing we do can earn our place in Heaven. It is only God's mercy that allows us to achieve salvation.

I'm glad we can come to an agreement here! This is what we believe as well, that our Good deeds cannot gain us entry into paradise, only Allaah's Mercy can.

God's mercy came in the body of Jesus Christ, who paid the ransom for sin. That doesn't give Christians free reign to sin at will, it only gives us the opportunity to achieve salvation through faith in Christ and a life dedicated to God.

So, from this viewpoint, do Christians not get punished by law then? Because Jesus has already atoned for your sins? [This is a genuinely serious question]

[mkh4JC]

So, from this viewpoint, do Christians not get punished by law then? Because Jesus has already atoned for your sins? [This is a genuinely serious question]

Here's what the Bible says to that effect: 'For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chasteneing, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he who the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spiritis, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastenening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6.

So if you sin as a Christian God has ways of getting your attention, and will chasten you for it. I should know this, as I myself have had to deal with some very adverse circumstances relating to sins I commited when I first accepted Christ.

[------]

Greetings Fedos,

Regardless of Jesus atoning for your sins, the law still punishes Christians, does it not?

[Grace Seeker]

I'm sorry that does not make any sense either. The atonement bit. Why would Jesus die on the cross to atone for our sins? Would it not make much more sense that we be held accountable for all our actions; be rewarded for good ones and get punished for bad ones? Isn't that the whole purpose of life that makes sense? That life is a test and you will get rewarded and punished according to the deeds that you do?

Because if we are merely held accountable for our sins, then the result of that would be our condemnation NOT our salvation NOR redemption. Given that God in his infinite mercy loves us and desires that none should perish, he has provided a means for our salvation. However, he requires his work to accomplish it for we cannot save ourselves. When people ask for justice, justice is that all (even the best of us) go to hell. Because of God's mercy and Jesus' work on the cross, that is no longer necessary.

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings Fedos,

Regardless of Jesus atoning for your sins, the law still punishes Christians, does it not?

No. We are not under law.

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:20-22a)

BUT... this does not mean that Christians have permission to sin. Quite the opposite. It means that we too are to be made righteous, just as God is righteous, so there should be no sin in our lives. The difference is that rather than trying to prove our righteousness so that God might be pleased with us and accept us --something that we believe no one can do-- that Christians are called to live righteously not to earn God's favor, but in response to God's unmerited favor.

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? (Romans 6:1-2)

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Romans 6:12-14)

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. (Romans 6:18)

Of course, for those who have not accepted God's gift of grace in Jesus Christ, they would still be under the law --as would Christians who seek to live in their own righteousness rather than God's. Though which LAW you are referring to might be problematic because the Law received by Moses was not for all people, but a part of God's covenant with the Jewish nation. Behind that was something often referred to as the Noahedic law or covenant and natural law. But these are harder to quantify with precise regulations. In any event, we return to the reality that none of us can keep these laws well enough to measure up to God's standard of perfection and so we are not saved by doing what the law requires but rather condemned by falling short of God's holiness which is the final standard for all.

[suffiyan007]

ICE is a form of water just as Jesus is a form of GOD. Jesus has the same nature as the Father and the Holy Ghost. Ice is not a fluid. unlike water and water vapor. It is a solid. Ice has the same formula as that of water and water vapor.

Ice is H20
Water is H20
Water Vapor is H20

but it's all in all one formula. H20

Oops! Choking Hazard!....

in Quran:

Human are made from clay and water. Even Jesus are made from clay and water...the soil of the earth.the holy spirit that mention not a spirit...is a Light(Nur)..God has puts the Light into jesus A.s. and born in the womb of Mary.Son of MAry please. Not Son of God, God neither begetteth nor he is be begotten...

[------]

Suffiyan007, you are getting on my nerves. I am trying to have a peaceful discussion. Please stop it with your rude remarks. Thanks.


Grace Seeker, I will respond to your comments later InshaaAllaah (God Willing). I have to go now.


Peace.

[suffiyan007]

ok!...

[Grace Seeker]

Suffiyan007, you are getting on my nerves. I am trying to have a peaceful discussion. Please stop it with your rude remarks. Thanks.


Grace Seeker, I will respond to your comments later InshaaAllaah (God Willing). I have to go now.


Peace.

Allahaismarladik. I'll be glad to continue our pleasant conversation when you return. إن شاء الله

[suffiyan007]

Dear Grace Seeker

Bro, i am not rude, i just wanna have my point to tell my view about the God Religions,and Serene get into nerves...i dont mean it...! hmm! why not we shakehand, "PEACE TO BE WITH YOU AND I ASLO BE WITH YOU"...no more fighting or debating...