good and evil; light and darkness

[glo]

Calling all philosophers for a peaceful discussion!

I was reading something elsewhere on why God did not just create a world that was good.
Now, this thread is not so much for discussion on why there is evil in the world.

Instead I want to ask this:

Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?
What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?
Can one exist without the other?

Perhaps we can equate this to light and darkness.
Can light exist without the existance of darkness?
Or is what we perceive to be light not defined by the absense of darkness, or vice versa?

Please discuss! :)

[Umar001]

Hey,

I think that even if they cannot exist indipendently, then surely they could both exist but only one be experienced?

Like, God could have created good and evil but only ordained good. Would we then know the good, meaning understand it's greatness? Maybe not, then we could have had a day of evil or a dream of evil or an account of what evil is like to understand the good. I think that would have been possible.

But I think God is more wise than me so I'll let him deal with what He allows and doesn't.

Allah knows best.

[barney]

First we need to establish where good and evil come from, and also what Good and Evil is.
The Totenkopft SS were a celebrated elite, the pinnacle of national socialism.
To describe them as evil in the city of Munich or Dresden in 1941 would have been laughable to the inhabitants.
Saddam Hussain was either a mighty and good hero, standing up against the bloated american steamroller or a egotistical Evil madman who bulldozed hundreds of thousands into mass graves.

We need a perspective of what is Good. What is Evil.

[- Qatada -]

This is why humans are so special, because unlike angels (who only ever do good) - humans have the choice, so by being obedient, encouraging good and forbidding evil - they are infact in an extremely noble and loving position in the sight of their Lord.


This argument actually refutes those who question why God allows evil to take place, because without having the choice to do evil, how could one reach such a high level of goodness?

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[Abdul Fattah]

Calling all philosophers for a peaceful discussion!

I was reading something elsewhere on why God did not just create a world that was good.
Now, this thread is not so much for discussion on why there is evil in the world.

Instead I want to ask this:

Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?
What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?
Can one exist without the other?

Perhaps we can equate this to light and darkness.
Can light exist without the existance of darkness?
Or is what we perceive to be light not defined by the absense of darkness, or vice versa?

Please discuss! :)

Interesting topic. I don't know if the analogy is 100% correct though. That because I'm not sure if they have the same relationship. Light is a measurable, material thing. a ray of light is made out of particles: photons. Darkness isn't a material object though, darkness is more like a state: "the absence of light". So I'm not sure whether or not the same can be said of good and evil. In my opinion good and evil are group names which refer to other characteristics like: chaotic, harmonised, painfull, joyfull, obedient, defiant, and so on. So we do always have antagonistic charesteristics, but there dependence on one over another seems unclear. For example, if there was no harmony, there would still exist chaos. The only difference would be that we just wouldn't be aware of chaoticness of everything, since it would be the most common thing in the world.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you glo; and thanks for starting the thread.

I believe there are three questions to find what you are looking for.

What is the greatest good thing that God can create?

What is the greatest good purpose to create these things?

What greatest good purpose can you give these things to do?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[barney]

This is why humans are so special, because unlike angels (who only ever do good) - humans have the choice, so by being obedient, encouraging good and forbidding evil - they are infact in an extremely noble and loving position in the sight of their Lord.


This argument actually refutes those who question why God allows evil to take place, because without having the choice to do evil, how could one reach such a high level of goodness?

Angels can do ill as they have free will, as we discussed some weeks ago.
Although that bogged down into that they only do the will of Yahweh/Allah and that means they havnt got free will.
Regardless in Christian/Judan teaching Satan was an angel who sinned.

[Abdul Fattah]

Angels can do ill as they have free will, as we discussed some weeks ago.

I thought not?

[جوري]

we actually define good by its contrast to evil..
the same way we contrast darkness by seeing light
or hunger by being satiated. relieved by having felt pain.. one can't exist without its polar opposite...
if it were day light all the time, you wouldn't know what night time is and that would be normal... because of the introduction of one can the other exist in a distinct state be enhanced or even defined...

cheers

[Trumble]

Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?
What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?

Can one exist without the other?

Yes, at least from the theistic viewpoint. God would be a counter example, and one is enough.

The question I would ask is whether, in the case of people, the existence of this 'good' defined in terms of its contrast with evil actually is sufficient to justify the existence of evil. Consider instead equating 'good' and 'evil' with 'suffering' and 'non-suffering' and good and evil actions as those that lead to suffering and those that do not, respectively. Defined as such, is a world with only 'good' actions not quite concievable?

[barney]

we actually define good by its contrast to evil..
the same way we contrast darkness by seeing light
or hunger by being satiated. relieved by having felt pain.. one can't exist without its polar opposite...
if it were day light all the time, you wouldn't know what night time is and that would be normal... because of the introduction of one can the other exist in a distinct state be enhanced or even defined...

cheers

Totally agree to the extreme.

In genisis interestingly, God makes a watery formless void and hovers over it,all is darkness on its own with no light. Darkness exists singularly with lightness a part of it, but not in existance.
God pulls then darkness out of the light. Calls the light day and the dark night. This watery void is obviously spinning around some light source.
God seperates the waters and creates land, then creates it again, and divides it from the secret underground sea. He makes plants which photosynthisise without the sun, makes Stars and heavenly bodies except the sun and the moon, then makes them and makes them both glow, then sets the earth spinning.
The Sun can now throw off its matter coelsece and cool in order to actually form the earth thats already got water and plants on it.
Add Animals and finally man...bobs your uncle!

[جوري]

Not conceivable no.. but on my next novel, I'll write of "Good Town' see how the story pans out, or if it will turn out a mere pamphlet...

But then again. I suppose there is always this ultra liberal, un-orthodox view of pure malevolence, where even under the threat of incest, torture and/or death for no good reason have a brisk substitution under the guise of mental illness or suffering etc..
Evil exists... it is not looking to be justified... it is a mere counter analogue....

[جوري]

Totally agree to the extreme.

In genisis interestingly, God makes a watery formless void and hovers over it,all is darkness on its own with no light. Darkness exists singularly with lightness a part of it, but not in existance.
God pulls then darkness out of the light. Calls the light day and the dark night. This watery void is obviously spinning around some light source.
God seperates the waters and creates land, then creates it again, and divides it from the secret underground sea. He makes plants which photosynthisise without the sun, makes Stars and heavenly bodies except the sun and the moon, then makes them and makes them both glow, then sets the earth spinning.
The Sun can now throw off its matter coelsece and cool in order to actually form the earth thats already got water and plants on it.
Add Animals and finally man...bobs your uncle!

I don't know if you have 'banana bags/rally packs' in England.. but you are in desperate need of one...

thank you for that.. I haven't seen a rummie in a couple of days, I was beginning to miss the confabs..

cheers

[ddz]

its equilibrium

For someone to be good, people have to understand what evil is...

For Someone to be Evil, someone has to understand what Good is... because both counteract each other...

its all equalibrium- just like if there was EvIL only.... not much point of living eh? everyone will be dead.. lol theres no goal...no acheivments... just as everything was good- no goals or acheivments, everything is there... you are therefore spoonfed... They need to exist together for mankind to thrive as humans beings.. if we make a mistake..and Good never existed... what would we feel then? How can we learn from out mistake... just lyk... if Good existed with no evil... how can we ever learn to progress?? Good and Evil existing together means we attain the most we can through Life's Challanges... we learn, we grow, we teach etc from what we have gone through..

[barney]

We have the Koran and the Torah and the Bible to tell us what Good is. Thus Good has a definate face and we have clear instructions. Choosing to go against this is evil.

Evil has a form. Satan. Satan provides all evil and only by using our free will to defy him by turning to god can evil be defeated.
Thats substansively correct yeah?

[جوري]

No not correct!
Satan has packed his bags, haven't you read my thread? http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/1...01-1610-a.html

[barney]

No not correct!
Satan has packed his bags, haven't you read my thread? http://www.islamicboard.com/arabic/1...01-1610-a.html

Umm, nope i missed that one. I dont go around reading all your threads y'know! :rollseyes

Anyway is so totally in arabic. , I'll pop off and learn arabic then come back in a couple of years :D

[snakelegs]

technically, darkness is merely the absence of light.
as for good and evil - do they exist as absolutes? people have different definitions of good and evil. and people in one time period may find evil that which in another time was viewed as perfectly acceptable or normal.
of course, if you narrow it down to people who believe in one of the abrahamic religions, it becomes a great deal easier. good = that which brings you closer to god. evil = that which takes you away from god.

[barney]

technically, darkness is merely the absence of light.
as for good and evil - do they exist as absolutes? people have different definitions of good and evil. and people in one time period may find evil that which in another time was viewed as perfectly acceptable or normal.
of course, if you narrow it down to people who believe in one of the abrahamic religions, it becomes a great deal easier. good = that which brings you closer to god. evil = that which takes you away from god.

But Gods perception of Good and Evil seems to change. God says that evil is calliing someone a fool, then he calls a whole race "fools".

Sometimes God just wont clarify what Evil is. "For they did evil in the sight of the lord". Sure we have the laws, but despite Moses saying they were for all time, we then have Jesus, who said he wouldnt change them, then saying his laws were above them, then we have Mohammed who said they were perfect, but are now corrupted by sinners and so the perfect message for all time was given again, and again by Joseph smith. Lets not even talk about papal infallability, otherwise Gods perfect message is so chaotic and confused that a hypermanic ADHD sufferer would have trouble understanding a sentance of it.

Can we really look to scripture to provide what is good? Does Good change over time?
Thou Shalt Not Murder,To murder is bad, but God instructs murder (david), protects murderers (Caine), orders kidnapping and attempted murder(Ishamel/Issac), mass murders (elisha)....

[glo]

Glo pulls up a chair, grabs her coffee and enjoys the discussion ... :)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?

yep if you think about it most evil comes from injustice, and there will be no injustice in heaven. So good can exist without evil, if we enter heaven we might see proof o fthat.

What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?
Can one exist without the other?

i believe so as what "good" is, is defined by our holy scriptures and morals etc. We dont need evil to define good, neither do we need darkness to define light. If Gods telling you somethings you dont need the vice versa or polar opposite to accept it, only to perhaps better understand it.

Perhaps we can equate this to light and darkness.
Can light exist without the existance of darkness?
Or is what we perceive to be light not defined by the absense of darkness, or vice versa?

light and darkness are not equal, good and evil are not equal. There is a theory that chaos gives balance to good, ie it makes one feel more alive etc and gives you more of a push but honestly, you can get the same lively feeling and push etc from the fear of God and his love...



Peace

[Snowflake]

Glo: Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?

Yes, I believe so. For example when we look at something that's white, we know it's white, but we only know how white when we put black next to it. So good can exist without evil; although we wouldn't really appreciate if there was no evil.

What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?
Can one exist without the other?

Good isn't destructive so yes it can exist without evil, whereas evil is destructive and if there was only evil it would wipe itself out because of it's destructive nature. So evil alone cannot exist.

However, both are vital in nature. But I guess that's a different topic.

[KAding]

Maybe defining 'good' and 'evil' would become impossible if they can't be contrasted against eachother. So our puny brains might not be able to grasp the concepts of goodness or evil anymore. However, in purely practical (and not philosophical/linguistic) terms without evil there would simply be less pain and suffering. At that point we might not be able to recognize the 'goodness' of that, since we can't compare it with evil. However, that does not mean that a world is such a state wouldn't be 'better', it would IMHO only mean we wouldn't be able to imagine how it could be worse.

[Pygoscelis]

we actually define good by its contrast to evil..
the same way we contrast darkness by seeing light
or hunger by being satiated. relieved by having felt pain.. one can't exist without its polar opposite...
if it were day light all the time, you wouldn't know what night time is and that would be normal... because of the introduction of one can the other exist in a distinct state be enhanced or even defined...

cheers

I do believe this is the first time I have ever agreed with this poster.

You can not recognize good without evil anymore than you can recognize short without tall or up without down. Opposites define one another.

Of course, where I disagree with the folks above is that I don't believe in Good or Evil as entities or forces that exist independent of the minds perceiving them. Where there is no sentient being to enjoy the good or suffer the evil, there is no good or evil.

[ranma1/2]

Can there be good at all without the existence of evil?
What I mean is, is what we mean by 'good' not defined by what we mean by 'evil', and vice versa?
Can one exist without the other?

it woudl of course depend on your def but id say yes.


Perhaps we can equate this to light and darkness.
Can light exist without the existance of darkness?
Or is what we perceive to be light not defined by the absense of darkness, or vice versa?

and light can exists without darkness.

Of course we might not have a term for either with out somethign to compare it to.

can you have peanut butter without chocolate?
can you have pepsi without coke?

[barney]

[B]Can

can you have peanut butter without chocolate?
can you have pepsi without coke?

Yeah, you can take the ingerdients that make them up and produce either pepsi or coke.

Light is on a scale of darkness.
Darkness is the absence of light.
Thats the easy one. Even the Bible and Quran allege to this, which is amazingly, one of the few places I agree with both books:)

Evil and good. Thats the tricky one. Does humankind have original Good or Original sin?