Psychology and Sociology in Miracles

[Umar001]

Bismillah,

Hope all is well,

I watched a programme yerstaday called Jesus camp, it was interesting, especially since I am at the moment trying to write an essay on the title of the thread.

I'm trying to talk about how sometimes 'miracles' may be no more than psychological and sociological things.

One thing I wanted to ask here is, would you consider a miracle to be a reason to embrace a faith? I have found that alot of people, Muslim and non Muslim, use 'Miracles' as a base for their faith do you? If so, why?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah

i see nothing wrong with taking miracles as a "sign" from Allah and thus embracing a faith.

However at the same time i dont believe miracles to be the defining factor, if you see a miracle it could be for such a huge number of reasons... that miracle doesnt necessarily necessitate your embracing of a particular faith, it could just indicate that you should research into the being of an almighty and omnipotent creator. Therefore i think miracles could be the start of a life long search to find Allah or even to strengthen the faith you already had in him, but i would never use them as a defining factor for a particular religion.

For me the miracles do indeed help, but nothing helps more then the Quran (which itself is a miracle).

If it wasnt for the Quran i probably would find it extremely difficult to embrace a faith.



I hope ive given an "ok'ish" reply


Assalamu Alaikum

[------]

:salamext:

My opinion is, if u believe and are searching for God, then He will show u miracles. If you have faith, He will show you miracles.

Thing is, if u are not searching for God or dont want to believe in God, then you will dismiss a miracle, no matter how obvious it is.

...get me?

[Umar001]

Wa Alaykum Salam wa Rahamatullahi Wa barakatuh IbnAbdulHakim
I see your point brother, so you mean if you saw a Miracle, something which seemed supernatural, you would still investigate the religion/person?

Wa Alaykum Salam Wa Rahamatullahi Wa Barakatuh Broken,

Sister, do you think it depends on how we interpret miracles? For example, someone who is brought up in a certain religion may interpret a miracle to be proof for his own religion while others might interpret that same miracle to be proof for another religion?

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[------]

:salamext:

For example, someone who is brought up in a certain religion may interpret a miracle to be proof for his own religion while others might interpret that same miracle to be proof for another religion?

Yup....whats the word I'm looking for now....*goes off to google it* ...cant find it....did it in RE in year 13.....thats it!

Blik

A blik is a frame of reference in terms of which data is interpreted – a mental filter in terms of which the notion of evidence is defined. Hare says: “ ... without a blik there can be no explanation; for it is by our bliks that we decide what is and what is not an explanation.

Hare illustrates this with the parable of the paranoid man.



“A certain lunatic is convinced that all dons want to murder him. [A “don” is a tutor at a British university.] His friends introduce him to all the mildest and most respectable dons that they can find, and after each of them has retired, they say, ‘You see, he doesn’t really want to murder you; he spoke to you in a most cordial manner; surely you are convinced now?’ But the lunatic replies, ‘Yes, but that was only is diabolical cunning; he’s really plotting against me the whole time, like the rest of them; I know it, I tell you.’ However many kindly dons are produced, the reaction is still the same.”



The paranoid man’s entire frame of reference is paranoid. Any evidence that might count to falsify the claim that dons are all killers (e.g., a large number of mild, kindly dons) simply does not count as evidence in a paranoid’s frame of reference. Many kindly dons would eventually convince a non-paranoid man that not all dons are killers. But for the paranoid man, the kindly dons only serve to reinforce the paranoid belief.

Source

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Wa Alaykum Salam wa Rahamatullahi Wa barakatuh IbnAbdulHakim

wa alaikum ussalaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakatuh

I see your point brother, so you mean if you saw a Miracle, something which seemed supernatural, you would still investigate the religion/person?

na'am

for example this thing about christian preachers speaking in tongues and healing etc. It may appear a miracle to you but you should investigate it further.

You know those people who embrace straight away, it might be the final straw for them. For example they might have already done all the investigating and have believed but needed a push, and Allah gives that push...


maybe... remember brow there have been evil men who have performed miracles, dajjal will perform miracles...

[Umar001]

maybe... remember brow there have been evil men who have performed miracles, dajjal will perform miracles...

Yes, if I remember correctly it was Imam Shafi'i and a scholar named something like Laa'i... something who said something along the lines of, 'If I had seen someone walking on water I still wouldn't accept their bida'' then the other scholar said, 'this scholar has fallen short, if I had seen them flying I still wouldnt accept their bida''

I think that maybe in Imam An Nasaa'e's book of knowledge. Allah knows best.

[barney]

Bismillah,

Hope all is well,

I watched a programme yerstaday called Jesus camp,

I saw that, It was freaking scary. Simply put it was child abuse. The poor kid fitting on the floor whilst everyone gathered around and rocked about thinking that the nervous destruction of the kid was something beautiful.

Made me sick to the guts.
It reminded me of the poor bloke in that You-Tube vidio posted recently on the forums, he collapses and fits on the floor as people just stand around trying to get rid of his "Djinn".
Crying out loud- stick him in the recovery position and get him to a doctor.

My daughter came back from Grandmas last weekend, she had had two days there and as she walked in the door, she said "i want to go to church so I can have sure and certain hope of life everlasting alongside my lord and saviour Jesus Christ"- All in one breath.
She's six years old.
Now some of the older forum members might ponder that a daughter having me as a father would have picked up a certain amount of cynicism about religion, but I dont talk to her about it either positively or negitively.
After 48 hours of being at Grandmas, she was not far off foaming at the mouth in furious devotion.

I work in mental health and have a psychology degree. From my experience if someone hears a voice, sees a supernatural event it is one of three things.

1. God is talking to them
2. The Devil is talking to them
3. Theyre psychotic

Rather than have the stigma of being mad, people will naturally plump for the nicer option. it's God.

Miracles: I discount miracles in scripture. why?
Well, cos im a snarky old cynic, but also because it's revisionist History.
A modern miracle would be filmed on a Mobile phone camera, the parting of the sea would be picked up by satalite cams, mana from heaven would be posted on you-tube.

Look at all the miracles on you-tube at the moment. The name Allah in clouds. Well gosh yes, out of the trillions of cloud configuations happening every second,from trillions of angles, its not surprising that occassionaly a squiggely badly spelled word will appear. The cloud outside as i type looks like a broken banana. Is god telling me the theory of Monkey men is broken?
If I went into a bunch of Christians and started ranting about that, some ...only a few... but some would take up the chant. They would tell their mates, their mates would pass it on. Two days later , if i was a cult of personality and a respected preacher to start with, the Broken banana would have turned into an angel battling charles darwin. Three weeks later, It would be a Host of angels ripping the sky A Sun Deer with eyes ;like laserbeams and guns that fired swords that fired axes.