/* */

PDA

View Full Version : British Created an Indian Holocaust



islamirama
06-14-2008, 05:37 AM
1857 mutiny revisited

India's secret history: 'A holocaust, one where millions disappeared...'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007....randeepramesh


  • Author says British reprisals involved the killing of 10 millions, spread over 10 years...
  • Let's unveil the reality a little. 1770 -- Bengal faced the most severe famine in the history, approximately 10 million people evaporated.

The battle of Cawnpore - the entire British garrison died at Cawnpore (now Kanpur), either in the battle or later massacred with women and children. Their deaths became a war cry for the British. Photograph: Hulton Archive/Getty


A controversial new history of the Indian Mutiny, which broke out 150 years ago and is acknowledged to have been the greatest challenge to any European power in the 19th century, claims that the British pursued a murderous decade-long campaign to wipe out millions of people who dared rise up against them. In War of Civilisations: India AD 1857, Amaresh Misra, a writer and historian based in Mumbai, argues that there was an "untold holocaust" which caused the deaths of almost 10 million people over 10 years beginning in 1857. Britain was then the world's superpower but, says Misra, came perilously close to losing its most prized possession: India.


Conventional histories have counted only 100,000 Indian soldiers who were slaughtered in savage reprisals, but none have tallied the number of rebels and civilians killed by British forces desperate to impose order, claims Misra.


The author says he was surprised to find that the "balance book of history" could not say how many Indians were killed in the aftermath of 1857. This is remarkable, he says, given that in an age of empires, nothing less than the fate of the world hung in the balance.


"It was a holocaust, one where millions disappeared. It was a necessary holocaust in the British view because they thought the only way to win was to destroy entire populations in towns and villages. It was simple and brutal. Indians who stood in their way were killed. But its scale has been kept a secret," Misra told the Guardian.
His calculations rest on three principal sources. Two are records pertaining to the number of religious resistance fighters killed - either Islamic mujahideen or Hindu warrior ascetics committed to driving out the British.


The third source involves British labour force records, which show a drop in manpower of between a fifth and a third across vast swaths of India, which as one British official records was "on account of the undisputed display of British power, necessary during those terrible and wretched days - millions of wretches seemed to have died."


There is a macabre undercurrent in much of the correspondence. In one incident Misra recounts how 2m letters lay unopened in government warehouses, which, according to civil servants, showed "the kind of vengeance our boys must have wreaked on the abject Hindoos and Mohammadens, who killed our women and children."


Misra's casualty claims have been challenged in India and Britain. "It is very difficult to assess the extent of the reprisals simply because we cannot say for sure if some of these populations did not just leave a conflict zone rather than being killed," said Shabi Ahmad, head of the 1857 project at the Indian Council of Historical Research. "It could have been migration rather than murder that depopulated areas."


Many view exaggeration rather than deceit in Misra's calculations. A British historian, Saul David, author of The Indian Mutiny, said it was valid to count the death toll but reckoned that it ran into "hundreds of thousands".


"It looks like an overestimate. There were definitely famines that cost millions of lives, which were exacerbated by British ruthlessness. You don't need these figures or talk of holocausts to hammer imperialism. It has a pretty bad track record."


Others say Misra has done well to unearth anything in that period, when the British assiduously snuffed out Indian versions of history. "There appears a prolonged silence between 1860 and the end of the century where no native voices are heard. It is only now that these stories are being found and there is another side to the story," said Amar Farooqui, history professor at Delhi University. "In many ways books like Misra's and those of [William] Dalrymple show there is lots of material around. But you have to look for it."


What is not in doubt is that in 1857 Britain ruled much of the subcontinent in the name of the Bahadur Shah Zafar, the powerless poet-king improbably descended from Genghis Khan.


Neither is there much dispute over how events began: on May 10 Indian soldiers, both Muslim and Hindu, who were stationed in the central Indian town of Meerut revolted and killed their British officers before marching south to Delhi. The rebels proclaimed Zafar, then 82, emperor of Hindustan and hoisted a saffron flag above the Red Fort.


What follows in Misra's view was nothing short of the first war of Indian independence, a story of a people rising to throw off the imperial yoke. Critics say the intentions and motives were more muddled: a few sepoys misled into thinking the officers were threatening their religious traditions. In the end British rule prevailed for another 90 years.


Misra's analysis breaks new ground by claiming the fighting stretched across India rather than accepting it was localised around northern India. Misra says there were outbreaks of anti-British violence in southern Tamil Nadu, near the Himalayas, and bordering Burma. "It was a pan-Indian thing. No doubt."
Misra also claims that the uprisings did not die out until years after the original mutiny had fizzled away, countering the widely held view that the recapture of Delhi was the last important battle.


For many the fact that Indian historians debate 1857 from all angles is in itself a sign of a historical maturity. "You have to see this in the context of a new, more confident India," said Jon E Wilson, lecturer in south Asian history at King's College London. "India has a new relationship with 1857. In the 40s and 50s the rebellions were seen as an embarrassment. All that fighting, when Nehru and Gandhi preached nonviolence. But today 1857 is becoming part of the Indian national story. That is a big change."


What they said

Charles Dickens: "I wish I were commander-in-chief in India ... I should proclaim to them that I considered my holding that appointment by the leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the race."


Karl Marx: "The question is not whether the English had a right to conquer India, but whether we are to prefer India conquered by the Turk, by the Persian, by the Russian, to India conquered by the Briton."


L'Estaffette, French newspaper: "Intervene in favour of the Indians, launch all our squadrons on the seas, join our efforts with those of Russia against British India ...such is the only policy truly worthy of the glorious traditions of France."

The Guardian: "We sincerely hope that the terrible lesson thus taught will never be forgotten ... We may rely on native bayonets, but they must be officered by Europeans."
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
north_malaysian
06-14-2008, 11:39 PM
When people are talking about "Holocaust"..it's all about the 6 millions Jews.

But when it comes to other ethnic groups/nationalities - NOBODY cares.

Stupid double standards....
Reply

Amadeus85
06-14-2008, 11:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
When people are talking about "Holocaust"..it's all about the 6 millions Jews.

But when it comes to other ethnic groups/nationalities - NOBODY cares.

Stupid double standards....
Well, muslims ussually cries about few thousands of palestinians killed in last few years. But they ussually forget about 200 thousands of black muslims killed in Darfur. These are also double standards. The holocaust of Armenians is also often forgotten.
Reply

islamirama
06-15-2008, 01:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, muslims ussually cries about few thousands of palestinians killed in last few years. But they ussually forget about 200 thousands of black muslims killed in Darfur. These are also double standards. The holocaust of Armenians is also often forgotten.
You don't kill a few thousand palestinians in 60yrs. The refugee camp massacres alone numbed in thousands thanks to that war criminal zionist pig shorun forwon. The zionist terrorist committed a holocaust in Palestine, they have killed 6 million palestinians (muslims and christians alike) over the 60yrs. They have become the new hitlers, no i take that back. They are worst then the hilter since hitler's "holocaust" was just a few hundred thousand dead only.

Whether it's british, european, americans or zionist history we look at, seems like all of them are great at genocide and holocaust of other nations and people....
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
islamirama
06-15-2008, 01:21 AM
The British Created an Indian Holocaust

http://urbansemiotic.com/2007/07/17/...-mass-killing/

Kathakali Chatterjee wrote this article.



We all know Hitler caused the biggest genocide on earth; he eliminated approximately six million Jews and half a million Gypsies. The Holocaust is the most widely known and despised event in world history. I argue that during World War II in India, the undivided Bengal witnessed the greatest passive-Holocaust in the world and it was all courtesy of the British who were "administering" India at the time.




Compared to what happened in India, Hitler looks pretty amateurish, doesn't he? The winners always write history and it is not unusual that this havoc was covered under a façade of natural calamity, but the catastrophe was actually man made.




Let's unveil the reality a little. 1770 -- Bengal faced the most severe famine in the history, approximately 10 million people evaporated. The British took over the country five years earlier; but no one could pinpoint them for the havoc. Actually it started because of a severe drought, but certainly the British didn't take any measure to reduce the effect. In fact, their revenue collection in 1771 surpassed the Rs. 15.21 million collected in 1768 by Rs. 52,000. No wonder 10 million people starved to death. Then in 1942 -- United Kingdom had suffered a disastrous defeat at Singapore against the Japanese military, which then proceeded to conquer Burma (Now Myanmar) from the British in the same year. At that point Myanmar was the highest rice exporting country in the world and 15% of India's rice came from Myanmar. In Bengal the proportion was slightly higher because of the state's proximity to Myanmar. British authorities feared a subsequent Japanese invasion of British India through Bengal, and they started stockpiling food for British soldiers to prevent access to supplies by the Japanese in case of an invasion. To implement that strategy the British ruthlessly enforced a "boat denial scheme" and then a "rice denial scheme."



The first policy confiscated almost 66,500 boats/ships which eventually collapsed the economy -- fishing became impossible, so was the exporting/importing of food. The second policy allowed the free merchants to purchase rice at any price and sell it back to the government for stocking in the governmental food storage. On one hand it increased the price of rice but on the other it created an artificial food shortage which finally dampened the effect of "Quit India movement." I was talking to a friend recently about the German Holocaust and he mentioned this British incident, saying, "probably we Indians are either pretty forgiving or forgetful... we don't talk much about this greatest man-made holocaust possible on earth..." I instantly understood why nobody really knows what happened in India because attention was cleverly directed towards the natural calamity to cover the brutal fact of deliberate starvation to provide a good night's sleep to the rest of the world. Should India have been forced to accept the offer?
Reply

The_Prince
06-15-2008, 01:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, muslims ussually cries about few thousands of palestinians killed in last few years. But they ussually forget about 200 thousands of black muslims killed in Darfur. These are also double standards. The holocaust of Armenians is also often forgotten.
Muslims have been complaining about Palestine way before any problems began in Darfur hence you are wrong. Darfur is a recent issue, and many are ignorant of what is going on there.
Reply

north_malaysian
06-15-2008, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, muslims ussually cries about few thousands of palestinians killed in last few years. But they ussually forget about 200 thousands of black muslims killed in Darfur. These are also double standards. The holocaust of Armenians is also often forgotten.
I'm talking about the Zionists... they cried the "6 millions Jews died in holocaust" since WWII until today...but never recognise Armenian genocide...let alone "Indian Holocaust"...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-15-2008, 09:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
You don't kill a few thousand palestinians in 60yrs. The refugee camp massacres alone numbed in thousands thanks to that war criminal zionist pig shorun forwon. The zionist terrorist committed a holocaust in Palestine, they have killed 6 million palestinians (muslims and christians alike) over the 60yrs. They have become the new hitlers, no i take that back. They are worst then the hilter since hitler's "holocaust" was just a few hundred thousand dead only.
Let me get this straight.. You're a naqba exaggerator as well as holocaust denier?
Reply

Amadeus85
06-15-2008, 10:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama

Whether it's british, european, americans or zionist history we look at, seems like all of them are great at genocide and holocaust of other nations and people....
Hindu scientists say that during the muslim conquest of India dozens of million people were killed as well.
Reply

Al-Zaara
06-15-2008, 10:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, muslims ussually cries about few thousands of palestinians killed in last few years. But they ussually forget about 200 thousands of black muslims killed in Darfur. These are also double standards. The holocaust of Armenians is also often forgotten.
The Armenian issue is a very much disputed matter, because there are those who refrain from calling it a holocauste due to the meaning of the word (and gotta admit, even it's definition is disputed) but not denying that many died.. Difficult innit.

But I agree, double standards everywhere.
Reply

Trumble
06-15-2008, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Hindu scientists say that during the muslim conquest of India dozens of million people were killed as well.

In other parts of Asia and Europe, the conquered nations quickly opted for conversion to Islam rather than death. But in India, because of the staunch resistance of the 4000 year old Hindu faith, the Muslim conquests were for the Hindus a pure struggle between life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and their populations massacred. Each successive campaign brought hundreds of thousands of victims and similar numbers were deported as slaves. Every new invader made often literally his hill of Hindu skulls. Thus the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000, was followed by the annihilation of the entire Hindu population there; indeed, the region is still called Hindu Kush, 'Hindu slaughter'. The Bahmani sultans in central India, made it a rule to kill 100.000 Hindus a year. In 1399, Teimur killed 100.000 Hindus IN A SINGLE DAY, and many more on other occasions. Koenraad Elst quotes Professor K.S. Lal's "Growth of Muslim population in India", who writes that according to his calculations, the Hindu population decreased by 8O MILLION between the year 1000 and 1525. INDEED PROBABLY THE BIGGEST HOLOCAUST IN THE WHOLE WORLD HISTORY. (Negat.34)

But the "pagans" were far too numerous to kill them all; and Hinduism too well entrenched in her people's soul, never really gave up, but quietly retreated in the hearts of the pious and was preserved by the Brahmins' amazing oral powers. Thus, realising that they would never be able to annihilate the entire Indian population and that they could not convert all the people, the Muslims rulers, particularly under the Hanifite law, allowed the pagans to become "zimmis" (protected ones) under 20 humiliating conditions, with the heavy "jizya", the toleration tax, collected from them.

"It is because of Hanifite law, writes Mr Elst, that many Muslim rulers in India considered themselves exempted from the duty to continue the genocide of Hindus". The last "jihad" against the Hindus was waged by the much glorified Tipu Sultan, at the end of the 18th century. Thereafter, particularly following the crushing of the 1857 rebellion by the British, Indian Muslims fell into a state of depression and increasing backwardness, due to their mollah's refusal of British education (whereas the elite Hindus gradually went for it) and their nostalgia for the "glorious past"'. It is only much later, when the British started drawing them into the political mainstream, so as to divide India, that they started regaining some predominance.
source
Capitals are the author's, not mine. Note, I found the article at a 'secular' site (not an "anti-islamic" one) but I will remove it (or mods, please do so) if anyone considers it inappropriate. However, I urge careful thought before doing so.


People, I am not an historian and no idea how much of this, or of the story that started this thread is "true", how much is not and how much is "just a theory". I don't think that we are ever likely to to. The point is, though, that people should think very carefully before they "throw the first stone" and start complaining about double standards from anyone else. Every culture has is skeletons that are more or less well buried; as a Briton I certainly take no pride in my country's history as a colonial power.

The lesson is not that so-and-so was bad, or that so-and-so somehow has double standards because of what happened long before any of those currently making the decisions, or reading this, was born. The lesson is that the past should learned from so mistakes are not repeated, but the past is gone. We need to move on and make things better for everyone NOW and in the future. That is why 'holocaust denial' is such poison, and indeed ignoring the truth in any of the articles quoted from above would be equally poisonous. We must learn so it never happens again.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-15-2008, 11:58 AM
Practically EVERY country has a 'colourful' past. Lets reflect on it, and not get our claws out. Move on and let's become more tolerant of each other!
Reply

islamirama
06-15-2008, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Hindu scientists say that during the muslim conquest of India dozens of million people were killed as well.
yea sure they did and the pink flying elephants exist also. :rollseyes

Muslims conquered most of the world, toppled 3 superpower empirers and ruled the world for centuries. If they were anything like the white ethenocentric christion zealous, most of the world they ruled would've been Muslim or dead. The very fact india is hindu majority religion contradicts your silly allegations. Now how about you stick to the topic of british and their good little deeds rather then derailing the topic as you neocons always do.
Reply

Trumble
06-15-2008, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
yea sure they did and the pink flying elephants exist also. :rollseyes
I think you need to do a little research, and remove your head from the sand. I have been researching and I'm afraid the "allegations", while probably exaggerated in the article I quoted from, are a very long way from being "silly".
Reply

The_Prince
06-15-2008, 04:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I think you need to do a little research, and remove your head from the sand. I have been researching and I'm afraid the "allegations", while probably exaggerated in the article I quoted from, are a very long way from being "silly".
get on topic, is that the topic?

why is it that these same guys who always nag on Muslims changing subjects are the very same people who change thread topics!

the topic is clear, british created Indian Holocaust, hence stay on topic, stop switching it.

STAY ON TOPIC
Reply

Amadeus85
06-15-2008, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
get on topic, is that the topic?

why is it that these same guys who always nag on Muslims changing subjects are the very same people who change thread topics!

the topic is clear, british created Indian Holocaust, hence stay on topic, stop switching it.

STAY ON TOPIC
Yes, you are right. Brittish did it if these documents are true. Shame on them. I just wanted to show that most of societies have such "dark" moments in history, because Islamirama said that Europeans are best in genocides.
Reply

Trumble
06-15-2008, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
the topic is clear, british created Indian Holocaust, hence stay on topic, stop switching it.

STAY ON TOPIC
My first post made quite clear why the reference was very much on topic. You are just as well aware of why islamirama is suddenly taking an interest in Indian history (or at least carefully selected parts of it) as I am. I suggest you (re)read that post and keep your spurious advice to yourself.
Reply

islamirama
06-15-2008, 07:20 PM
It's bad enough that they did it, they hide it as well since they were the "victors" ruling (occupying) those people. Ethnocentric genocidal maniacs!
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-15-2008, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
yea sure they did and the pink flying elephants exist also. :rollseyes

Muslims conquered most of the world, toppled 3 superpower empirers and ruled the world for centuries. If they were anything like the white ethenocentric christion zealous, most of the world they ruled would've been Muslim or dead. The very fact india is hindu majority religion contradicts your silly allegations. Now how about you stick to the topic of british and their good little deeds rather then derailing the topic as you neocons always do.
I agree with Trumble. You need to re-search history. Hindus ONLY survived because of the Sikhs. Read Bulleh Shah's poetry

Agar Na Hote (Dhan Dhan Shiri) Guru Gobind Singh, Sunnat Hoti Sab Ki'' - ''If (Dhan Dhan Shiri) Guru Gobind Singh Ji Didn't Exist, All would be circumcised''

Mughals were a tyrannical force, not saying they were Muslims, as they didn't follow the code of Islam. Akbar didn't to begin with, but Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed him the error of his ways, and he reformed.
Reply

north_malaysian
06-16-2008, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I agree with Trumble. You need to re-search history. Hindus ONLY survived because of the Sikhs. Read Bulleh Shah's poetry

Agar Na Hote (Dhan Dhan Shiri) Guru Gobind Singh, Sunnat Hoti Sab Ki'' - ''If (Dhan Dhan Shiri) Guru Gobind Singh Ji Didn't Exist, All would be circumcised''

Mughals were a tyrannical force, not saying they were Muslims, as they didn't follow the code of Islam. Akbar didn't to begin with, but Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji showed him the error of his ways, and he reformed.
Akbar created his own religion right? Din-i-Elahi...
Reply

Izyan
06-16-2008, 01:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
yea sure they did and the pink flying elephants exist also. :rollseyes

Muslims conquered most of the world, toppled 3 superpower empirers and ruled the world for centuries. If they were anything like the white ethenocentric christion zealous, most of the world they ruled would've been Muslim or dead. The very fact india is hindu majority religion contradicts your silly allegations. Now how about you stick to the topic of british and their good little deeds rather then derailing the topic as you neocons always do.
You just contradicted your own argument. Weren't the Brits white ethenocentric christion zealous at the time they occupied India? Aren't the majority still Hindu?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-16-2008, 02:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Akbar created his own religion right? Din-i-Elahi...
Yes, more of a cult status for himself. But his persection of non-muslims was halted by his meeting with Dhan Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and aknowledged him to be a Fakir of God.

BTW - What a match yesterday! Turkey cameback from 0 - 3!
:D
Reply

north_malaysian
06-17-2008, 12:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Yes, more of a cult status for himself. But his persection of non-muslims was halted by his meeting with Dhan Shri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and aknowledged him to be a Fakir of God.

BTW - What a match yesterday! Turkey cameback from 0 - 3! :D
What's a "Fakir of God". In Arabic "Faqir" means "poor man"

Yeah...Turkey rocks!!!:D:thumbs_up
Reply

islamirama
06-17-2008, 03:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
You just contradicted your own argument. Weren't the Brits white ethenocentric christion zealous at the time they occupied India? Aren't the majority still Hindu?
British war criminals were there to commit holocaust and steal the natural resources, not to "save" the "colored heathens". 10 million murdered aren't enough for you?


Charles Dickens: "I wish I were commander-in-chief in India ... I should proclaim to them that I considered my holding that appointment by the leave of God, to mean that I should do my utmost to exterminate the race."
Reply

Trumble
06-17-2008, 06:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
British war criminals were there to commit holocaust and steal the natural resources, not to "save" the "colored heathens". 10 million murdered aren't enough for you?
I take it you haven't yet stopped playing ostrich in order to research some earlier Indian history, then?

Look, I know this probably won't sink in but the point is we have no more idea of how many were killed by the British than we have how many were were killed by muslims centuries earlier. Both articles are not lists of 'facts' but theories based on limited evidence gathered by their authors. Accepting one as 'true' and totally rejecting the other with a puerile argument is ludicrous. Neither seem to represent mainstream positions regarding the number of deaths although, in both cases, it is clear a great many innocents may have been killed. We all have to face up to the past... I'm afraid muslims are not immune.

BTW, Charles Dickens was a novelist, not a politician or soldier. I don't think he ever got any nearer to India than Switzerland.
Reply

islamirama
06-18-2008, 03:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
I take it you haven't yet stopped playing ostrich in order to research some earlier Indian history, then?

Look, I know this probably won't sink in but the point is we have no more idea of how many were killed by the British than we have how many were were killed by muslims centuries earlier. Both articles are not lists of 'facts' but theories based on limited evidence gathered by their authors. Accepting one as 'true' and totally rejecting the other with a puerile argument is ludicrous. Neither seem to represent mainstream positions regarding the number of deaths although, in both cases, it is clear a great many innocents may have been killed. We all have to face up to the past... I'm afraid muslims are not immune.

BTW, Charles Dickens was a novelist, not a politician or soldier. I don't think he ever got any nearer to India than Switzerland.

We have plenty of evidence. It's just buried by the colonial war criminals. These two articles i posted in here are an attempt at researching these and what we discover is that british committed holocaust of 10 million people there and covered it up under the guise of shortage of food or what not. You can play the denial card for only so long till it sinks in....

Charles dickens remarks shows the mentality of these people. If a novelist can say that, then what about the military people?

apparently 10 million dead doesn't mean much to you and rather then deal with this fact, you (like few other trolls here) like change topics or try to turn the tables.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-18-2008, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
What's a "Fakir of God". In Arabic "Faqir" means "poor man"

Yeah...Turkey rocks!!!:D:thumbs_up
Meant Pir/Peer! :D
Reply

Fishman
06-19-2008, 10:04 AM
[quote=islamirama;960389]
Muslims conquered most of the world, toppled 3 superpower empirers and ruled the world for centuries.
Romans, Persians, which was the third? :?

If they were anything like the white ethenocentric christion zealous, most of the world they ruled would've been Muslim or dead.
Interestingly, the second Islamic Caliphate/dynasty, the Umayyads, were racist and ethnocentric, but in a different way to Western colonialism. The Umayyads believed that Islam was for Arabs only, and actually made converting to Islam very difficult. They certainly wouldn't want to force anybody to convert to Islam, as they believed that a non-Arab that became Muslim willfully was insincere, let alone somebody who was compelled!

At the end of the Umayad's reign, only about 40% of people in the Caliphate were Muslims, whilst at the end of the Abbasids (the next dynasty) the number was near 100%. The Abbasids were the dynasty during which the Islamic golden age took place.

Now how about you stick to the topic of british and their good little deeds
Some British people do have a habit of sweeping Colonialism under the carpet with remarks such as 'the British were better than the French, at least!' and 'we brought them roads and modern infrastructure'. I don't really see why Americans would have this attitude though, opposing colonialism is part of American patriotism as America used to be a British colony.
:w:
Reply

Keltoi
06-19-2008, 03:46 PM
Just to clarify, The Roman Empire was long gone by the time the Turks took Constantinople, and the Byzantines were hardly a superpower either.
Reply

Fishman
06-19-2008, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Just to clarify, The Roman Empire was long gone by the time the Turks took Constantinople, and the Byzantines were hardly a superpower either.
:sl:
In Islamic sources the Byzantines are usually referred to as 'Romans'. In fact, the name 'Byzantine' is just an invention by modern historians, not what the Bzyantines actually called themselves.

The main damage Muslims did to Byzantium was to conquer the middle east and north Africa from them. The rest just screwed itself up eventually due Arab raids, the Crusaders and various Turks. The Ottomans just delivered the finishing blow.
In a way the Ottomans replaced the Byzantines, at the height of the Ottoman Empire it controlled all the territory of the eastern Roman Empire and more.
:w:
Reply

Trumble
06-19-2008, 04:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
Some British people do have a habit of sweeping Colonialism under the carpet with remarks such as 'the British were better than the French, at least!' and 'we brought them roads and modern infrastructure'. I don't really see why Americans would have this attitude though, opposing colonialism is part of American patriotism as America used to be a British colony.
At the risk of taking this further off-topic I would point out that "the Americans" were in fact the colonizers themselves, not the native inhabitants. The weren't remotely concerned with "opposing colonialism", only in no longer being a colony (or colonies, to be precise) themselves. What did happen to the native inhabitants was every bit as bad as any British colonial excesses. Again, though, this all happened a long time ago.

As to the quoted remarks very few Brits these days do "sweep colonialism under the carpet". What I, and indeed most of us, will not do is go on some sort of massive guilt trip because of something done before our great-grandparents were born. Particularly when we all have skeletons in the ancestral cupboard - even those who prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and cry "off topic!" rather than admit them.
Reply

Fishman
06-19-2008, 05:24 PM
:sl:
[quote=Trumble;962353]
At the risk of taking this further off-topic I would point out that "the Americans" were in fact the colonizers themselves, not the native inhabitants. The weren't remotely concerned with "opposing colonialism", only in no longer being a colony (or colonies, to be precise) themselves. What did happen to the native inhabitants was every bit as bad as any British colonial excesses. Again, though, this all happened a long time ago.
It's still part of their patriotism though, the idea of being free and 'keeping the king of England out of your face'. Whether they actually violated their principles is a different matter.


As to the quoted remarks very few Brits these days do "sweep colonialism under the carpet". What I, and indeed most of us, will not do is go on some sort of massive guilt trip because of something done before our great-grandparents were born. Particularly when we all have skeletons in the ancestral cupboard - even those who prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and cry "off topic!" rather than admit them.
I'm just saying what I've seen, I am British!
:w:
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-04-2013, 05:09 PM
  2. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-28-2011, 10:27 AM
  3. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-27-2010, 02:08 PM
  4. Replies: 31
    Last Post: 05-11-2009, 07:41 PM
  5. Replies: 32
    Last Post: 01-06-2007, 05:49 PM
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Holiday in the Maldives

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!