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Uthman
06-15-2008, 02:15 PM
One staple of anti-Semitism has been that Jews have taken over the world, or are about to. Now Muslims are being accused of the same. That Muslims pose a dire demographic and ideological threat to the West was the hypothesis of a 4,800-word article, The Future Belongs to Islam, in Maclean's magazine in October 2006. Its reverberations are still being felt.

Last month, the Ontario Human Rights Commission called it "Islamophobic." This month, the British Columbia commission held a week-long hearing. And the federal commission is weighing a report from its investigators.

The commissions are responding to petitions filed by a Muslim group that argued the article constituted hate and that Maclean's refused an adequate counter-response.

The issue has triggered a heated debate.

Many commentators vilified the complainants – or Muslims in general. Joining the latter was CBC-TV's Rex Murphy. He sneered at the idea that Canadian Muslims would have the temerity to go to human rights commissions when "real human rights violations" were rampant across the Muslim world, especially in Saudi Arabia.

The parallel was similar to ones heard by Quebec's Bouchard-Taylor commission, which has since dismissed them as "deceitful."

Murphy is entitled to his sulphurous opinions. But why doesn't the publicly funded CBC offer counterbalancing points of view?

Other commentators have invoked the free-speech argument, in its various formulations – free speech is so precious that even hate speech should not be censored. Or hate speech may be curbed but only through the Criminal Code. Or hate speech is best dealt with under human rights statutes, which should be tightened to allow only "vexatious" cases, not "frivolous" ones.

But freedom of speech is not absolute. "Except for the U.S., virtually every Western democracy has laws against hate," notes Bernie Farber of the Canadian Jewish Congress. "Our anti-hate laws are probably the most underused."

The Supreme Court has upheld those laws. Jewish, gay and other groups have long advocated their use. Few Canadians complained. But now that Muslims are, many are.

"That's really what it's about," Farber told me. "When non-Muslims were using it, nobody really cared.

"People need scapegoats. It used to be Jews. Now it's Muslims, to a great extent. Tomorrow, it may be Bahais or somebody else ...

"People should focus on the law, not on those using it. If the complaint is frivolous, the system will deal with it."

Barbara Hall, chair of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, has offered a similarly clear-headed view.

Even while refusing to hear the Maclean's case – because her commission, unlike the one in B.C., does not have the jurisdiction to hear cases against the media – she used her "broader mandate to promote and advance respect for human rights" to speak out:

"Islamophobia is a form of racism ... Since September 2001, Islamophobic attitudes are becoming more prevalent and Muslims are increasingly the target of intolerance ...

"The Maclean's article, and others like it, are examples of this. By portraying Muslims as all sharing the same negative characteristics, including being a threat to `the West,' this explicit expression of Islamophobia further perpetuates and promotes prejudice toward Muslims and others."

Her statement, posted on the commission's website, is worth reading. So is a blog by John Miller, professor of journalism at Ryerson University: thejournalismdoctor.ca/.

He calls the Maclean's article "xenophobic," and says it's riddled with errors. He ridicules the Canadian Association of Journalists for its knee-jerk defence, given that the article may have violated the association's own guidelines for fairness, accuracy, access and anti-discrimination.

People will always differ on what constitutes hate or where to draw the line on free speech. But most people would agree that free speech is not a licence to target vulnerable groups, let alone risk rupturing the common good in Canada.

Haroon Siddiqui's column appears Thursday and Sunday.
hsiddiq@thestar.ca

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Uthman
06-18-2008, 12:03 PM

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------
06-18-2008, 12:07 PM
:salamext:

free speech is not a licence to target vulnerable groups
:thumbs_up
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KAding
06-18-2008, 01:40 PM
I've read the original article by Mark Steyn now and I don't see how it could be labeled as "hate speech". It talks about demographics and Islam as an political ideology. I don't agree with his reasoning on the matter. This is his point basically:

This is about the seven-eighths below the surface -- the larger forces at play in the developed world that have left Europe too enfeebled to resist its remorseless transformation into Eurabia and that call into question the future of much of the rest of the world. The key factors are: demographic decline; the unsustainability of the social democratic state; and civilizational exhaustion.
In other words, Europe will become Islamic because of demographics, the welfare state and a refusal by Europeans to defend their own values. He views that as a negative development. I can only assume that the latter makes it "hate speech"? The belief an Islamic Europe is a bad development? If that is hate you can probably lock up 95% of Europe? Because I don't know any non-Muslim who believes that Europe with a Muslim majority would be swell. Or is the "hate" part the belief that demographics will make Muslims a majority in Europe?

If you want hate speech, try something like "Rage and Pride" by Oriana Fallaci. I would agree that would probably qualify.
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KAding
06-18-2008, 01:46 PM
"Islamophobia is a form of racism"
I disagree. Firstly, Islam is not a race. Secondly, Islam is not a-political. You can't be blatantly political and at the same time demand protection against political speech. Islam is a religion, yes. Islam is a culture, yes. But Islam also promotes certain political values and a political system. Calling political criticism of Islam "Islamophobe" and racist, is about as sensible as calling criticism of socialism "Socialistophobe" and racist. You can't always hide behind the religious banner to silence other who protest your political message.
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Amadeus85
06-18-2008, 02:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I disagree. Firstly, Islam is not a race. Secondly, Islam is not a-political. You can't be blatantly political and at the same time demand protection against political speech. Islam is a religion, yes. Islam is a culture, yes. But Islam also promotes certain political values and a political system. Calling political criticism of Islam "Islamophobe", is about as sensible as calling criticism of socialism "Socialistophobe". You can't always hide behind the religion banner to silence other who protest your political message.
Agree with every word.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2008, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
I've read the original article by Mark Steyn now and I don't see how it could be labeled as "hate speech". It talks about demographics and Islam as an political ideology. I don't agree with his reasoning on the matter. This is his point basically:



In other words, Europe will become Islamic because of demographics, the welfare state and a refusal by Europeans to defend their own values. He views that as a negative development. I can only assume that the latter makes it "hate speech"? The belief an Islamic Europe is a bad development? If that is hate you can probably lock up 95% of Europe? Because I don't know any non-Muslim who believes that Europe with a Muslim majority would be swell. Or is the "hate" part the belief that demographics will make Muslims a majority in Europe?

If you want hate speech, try something like "Rage and Pride" by Oriana Fallaci. I would agree that would probably qualify.
I disagree. Firstly, Islam is not a race. Secondly, Islam is not a-political. You can't be blatantly political and at the same time demand protection against political speech. Islam is a religion, yes. Islam is a culture, yes. But Islam also promotes certain political values and a political system. Calling political criticism of Islam "Islamophobe", is about as sensible as calling criticism of socialism "Socialistophobe". You can't always hide behind the religion banner to silence other who protest your political message.
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron
Agree with every word.
Same here!:)
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KAding
06-18-2008, 02:23 PM
Besides, if we'd want to ban hate speech we'd have to be consistent and ban stuff like "Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (98:6)" and "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk (51:5)." I can't think of any kind of sensible argument why this would be any better than what Mark Steyn wrote. It actually sounds a lot worse, but thats probably my non-Muslim bias right there ;).

So be careful what you wish for!
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aamirsaab
06-18-2008, 03:06 PM
:sl:
We should be able to use the islamophobia card in the exact same way we use anti-semitic card.

If you say no, you're an anti-semitic-islamophobe
:p

Explanation: If we are allowed to say anti-semitism to anything remotely criticising Israel or Judaism or Jews, then what is the problem of using islamophobia to those who criticise Islam and muslims? Both terms refer to a form of racism; if you are racist or abusive to jews you'll be called anti semitic (which is well deserved!) Similarly, if you're abusive or racist to muslims you'll be called an islamophobe.
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Amadeus85
06-18-2008, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
We should be able to use the islamophobia card in the exact same way we use anti-semitic card.

If you say no, you're an anti-semitic-islamophobe
:p

Explanation: If we are allowed to say anti-semitism to anything remotely criticising Israel or Judaism or Jews, then what is the problem of using islamophobia to those who criticise Islam and muslims? Both terms refer to a form of racism; if you are racist or abusive to jews you'll be called anti semitic (which is well deserved!) Similarly, if you're abusive or racist to muslims you'll be called an islamophobe.
Nope I dont agree. :)
First of all does really every form of criticism to Israel is attacked as anti-semitism? I guess no. If it was, so how we could see all these news about killed civilians in Gaza, persecuted people by IDF etc etc. Actually just very small minority of people sees every anti-israeli view as anti-semitism.
Just like muslims have right to criticize the state of Israel, the same we have right to criticize some aspects of Islam.
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2008, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Many commentators vilified the complainants – or Muslims in general. Joining the latter was CBC-TV's Rex Murphy. He sneered at the idea that Canadian Muslims would have the temerity to go to human rights commissions when "real human rights violations" were rampant across the Muslim world, especially in Saudi Arabia.
:rollseyes
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Uthman
06-19-2008, 07:02 AM
:sl: The Prince (nice name),

Obviously you are entitled to your views, but do you think you are emulating the example that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) set for us when speaking to others, especially Non-Muslims?

Something to think about. :)

:w:
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 08:45 AM
:sl:
ooooooooooooo kay then.

Just would like to add: true freedom of speech is actually detrimental to society. Proof of this is that every society has a taboo subject (something that you shouldn't talk about) - this is essential for a society to actually run. If we allow true freedom of speech (seeing as we're humans, this innevitably leads to hate speech) we will all end up causing rifts between one another. Rifts = mistrust = no trade = no food = no humans in that society = no society.

The amount of ''freedom of speech'' that exists in the UK (and the West for that matter) is enough. We do not need to be encouraged to use our existing freedom to hurl abuse at one another (if we look back at the cartoons, this is exactly what it is all about!)

In all things there is balance. Humans need balance to survive as an individual let alone a species.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-19-2008, 12:58 PM
allahu a'lam its painful to see this ummahs state in the west


in the name of free-speech we see our most beloved (sallallahi alaihi wasallaam) slandered...

may Allah reward the muslims who fight against those who insult our beloved, Ameen



Assalamu Alaikum
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Muezzin
06-19-2008, 01:03 PM
Guys, you do know that on this forum, you're free to speak as long as it's on topic, right? Otherwise I start deleting and locking things like a crazy demon.
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Pygoscelis
06-19-2008, 02:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Besides, if we'd want to ban hate speech we'd have to be consistent and ban stuff like "Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (98:6)" and "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk (51:5)." I can't think of any kind of sensible argument why this would be any better than what Mark Steyn wrote. It actually sounds a lot worse, but thats probably my non-Muslim bias right there ;).

So be careful what you wish for!
Absolutely. Be very careful religionists. If you manage to ban hate speech, your holy books may very well be banned along with it.

And as for the article above, slamming the CBC because it wouldn't air opposing views.... that is an outright falsehood. I have to assume the writer has not listened to the CBC. There have been hours of airtime of muslim response to this. The CBC has actually been very balanced on the issue.

I also agree with the above that Islam can not be made immune from criticism simply because it is a religion. The same goes for all other religions.
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aamirsaab
06-23-2008, 02:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
....I also agree with the above that Islam can not be made immune from criticism simply because it is a religion. The same goes for all other religions.
Let us be clear on something; socially and legally you have complete freedom of speech in the UK. You are able to say anything you want. However, anyone who feels offended by those comments has the right to report you and have you detained for discrimination, harassment, liable etc.

Those who want freedom of speech really want the ability to get away with insulting someone i.e ''I can call you a racist term and you cannot do a **** thing about it other than sit there and cry - that's right, you aren't allowed to report it to the police or any of that crap, just sit here and listen to my insults...It's my right ****it!''

So, all in all, freedom of speech already exists in its entirety - what adamant supporters of this freedom truly want is the lack of negative consequences (both socially and legally) towards them. To use a Tekken analogy: I'm allowed to cheap throw you all I want - you aren't allowed to press: reset, start, block, punch or kick or any of the four directional buttons. In fact, the only thing you can do is sit there and take the beatings...like a man!
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SixTen
06-23-2008, 03:09 PM
Their is no point debating against those who feel that ridiculing a religion is fine and is excercise of freedom of speech. Deep down, they are very anti-religious and think pretty much everyone who is religious as nutters.
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Keltoi
06-23-2008, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Their is no point debating against those who feel that ridiculing a religion is fine and is excercise of freedom of speech. Deep down, they are very anti-religious and think pretty much everyone who is religious as nutters.
I am a religious person, and I do want the freedom to "ridicule", or more importantly, to criticize my or any other religion. I may not always like it when it is my religion being ridiculed, but I want the freedom to criticize any institution, whether it be religious, political, or public.
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SixTen
06-23-2008, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I am a religious person, and I do want the freedom to "ridicule", or more importantly, to criticize my or any other religion. I may not always like it when it is my religion being ridiculed, but I want the freedom to criticize any institution, whether it be religious, political, or public.

First, I would like to say - I am not against criticism, but I am of ridiculing. Ridiculing has no good to it - just can cause hatred. Criticism, is I believe completly different. I have no problem with criticism, but what good is mocking other peoples Prophet in a form say, cartoons, knowing it only angers them - what benefit did you achieve? Did you feel joyous freedom of having been able to say something for no purpose but piss alot of people off - just for the sake of it?
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Keltoi
06-23-2008, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
First, I would like to say - I am not against criticism, but I am of ridiculing. Ridiculing has no good to it - just can cause hatred. Criticism, is I believe completly different. I have no problem with criticism, but what good is mocking other peoples Prophet in a form say, cartoons, knowing it only angers them - what benefit did you achieve? Did you feel joyous freedom of having been able to say something for no purpose but piss alot of people off - just for the sake of it?
Who decides what is criticism and what is ridicule? What you consider to be ridicule another can consider to be criticism. Personally, I thought the cartoons were full of criticism...and full of ridicule. While I do agree that newspaper publications and other media have a responsibility to properly edit what they deem necessary for public consumption, I do not think their freedom to be jerks, if they so choose, should be fringed upon. In a free market system, if you don't like the product you don't buy it.
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SixTen
06-24-2008, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Who decides what is criticism and what is ridicule? What you consider to be ridicule another can consider to be criticism. Personally, I thought the cartoons were full of criticism...and full of ridicule. While I do agree that newspaper publications and other media have a responsibility to properly edit what they deem necessary for public consumption, I do not think their freedom to be jerks, if they so choose, should be fringed upon. In a free market system, if you don't like the product you don't buy it.

Care to explain how the cartoons were criticism?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-24-2008, 09:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I do not think their freedom to be jerks, if they so choose, should be fringed upon.
but it disturbs the peace. and its not a small disturbance.


if people arent allowed to shout and howl or play loud music at night because it disturbs the neighbours then why are they allowed to provoke other religions intentionally?
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Suomipoika
06-24-2008, 11:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Those who want freedom of speech really want the ability to get away with insulting someone i.e ''I can call you a racist term and you cannot do a **** thing about it other than sit there and cry - that's right, you aren't allowed to report it to the police or any of that crap, just sit here and listen to my insults...It's my right ****it!''

So, all in all, freedom of speech already exists in its entirety - what adamant supporters of this freedom truly want is the lack of negative consequences (both socially and legally) towards them. To use a Tekken analogy: I'm allowed to cheap throw you all I want - you aren't allowed to press: reset, start, block, punch or kick or any of the four directional buttons. In fact, the only thing you can do is sit there and take the beatings...like a man!
Im sorry, but this is really offensive, insulting and hurtful generalisation. I support "total" freedom of speech, (its one of my core values and Id imagine its as important to me as Islam is to muslims) but I really dont want to insult anyone.

Overall this place is really depressing considering how much hate is allowed in here and I have never seen so much racism in my life without actually looking for it and I have never felt so hated before for simply because what I am than on various muslim and Islam related discussion forums. Ive asked this before, on this forum too I think, and never really gotten a real answer, who is the judge to decide what is deamed as insulting speech that can be banned and what cannot be? Which is why I support the freedom of speech the way I do. I do not think a system can ever be worked that doesnt create a separate classes of people between groups that can be insulted and groups that cannot be based on what they believe in. I strongly feel the situation is alreadly like that in Finland.

You over generalised that people like me want to get away with insulting others, I over generalise that religious people like you want a free hand to insult the values of others but have their own values protected.
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aamirsaab
06-24-2008, 12:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
Im sorry, but this is really offensive, insulting and hurtful generalisation. I support "total" freedom of speech, (its one of my core values and Id imagine its as important to me as Islam is to muslims) but I really dont want to insult anyone.

Overall this place is really depressing considering how much hate is allowed in here and I have never seen so much racism in my life without actually looking for it and I have never felt so hated before for simply because what I am than on various muslim and Islam related discussion forums. Ive asked this before, on this forum too I think, and never really gotten a real answer, who is the judge to decide what is deamed as insulting speech that can be banned and what cannot be? Which is why I support the freedom of speech the way I do. I do not think a system can ever be worked that doesnt create a separate classes of people between groups that can be insulted and groups that cannot be based on what they believe in. I strongly feel the situation is alreadly like that in Finland.

You over generalised that people like me want to get away with insulting others, I over generalise that religious people like you want a free hand to insult the values of others but have their own values protected.
I think you have misunderstood my post and I honestly did not mean to offend anyone. Look all I was saying is freedom of speech already exists. What certain folk want is to remove the negative consequence of it. You can say anything you want in the UK - it's not like you'll get shot for it. But, you can be reported for some of those (offensive) remarks provided someone reports it to the police or authority (which is the other person's right!). So, essentially what certain freedom of speech proponenents want is to be legally allowed to criticise anything (by this I mean it cannot be categorised as an arrestable offence). The initial reasoning for the cartoon crisis was freedom of speech (but, it was targeted more at eliminating the social taboos!) - the rest of the world jumped on the freedom of speech bandwagon AFTER muslims expressed disgust at the cartoons, thereby supporting my previous statement that people want the right to insult and get away with it. Perhaps not in finland or denmark, but certainly this view was expressed in the West.

You did raise a good question, which I shall answer:
''who is the judge to decide what is deamed as insulting speech that can be banned and what cannot be?''

This is down to two things:
Society (in terms of social taboos)
Government (in terms of legal issues)

That's it. An individual has little control over it in either matter - it's down to the masses.

P.s Again, to reiterrate; freedom of speech already exists and I have no problem with that. In fact, I think it is good (to an extent) since it allows constructive criticism. But, what certain folk want to do is to a: break down social taboos (which is nigh on impossible) and break down the legal related consequences that protect certain individuals (such as those who follow a particular religion or ideology) - this innevitably leads to DESTRUCTIVE criticism!
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Suomipoika
06-24-2008, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I think you have misunderstood my post and I honestly did not mean to offend anyone. Look all I was saying is freedom of speech already exists. What certain folk want is to remove the negative consequence of it. You can say anything you want in the UK - it's not like you'll get shot for it. But, you can be reported for some of those (offensive) remarks provided someone reports it to the police or authority (which is the other person's right!). So, essentially what certain freedom of speech proponenents want is to be legally allowed to criticise anything (by this I mean it cannot be categorised as an arrestable offence). The initial reasoning for the cartoon crisis was freedom of speech (but, it was targeted more at eliminating the social taboos!) - the rest of the world jumped on the freedom of speech bandwagon AFTER muslims expressed disgust at the cartoons, thereby supporting my previous statement that people want the right to insult and get away with it. Perhaps not in finland or denmark, but certainly this view was expressed in the West.
Im really one of those "certain" people that want a situation where any value, be it religion, political ideology or whatever can be insulted, ridiculed, hated and nothing is sacred. Because...

You did raise a good question, which I shall answer:
''who is the judge to decide what is deamed as insulting speech that can be banned and what cannot be?''

This is down to two things:
Society (in terms of social taboos)
Government (in terms of legal issues)

That's it. An individual has little control over it in either matter - it's down to the masses.
Those are the "judges" in Finland too as to what is allowed and what is not. To give an example. Drawing pig on cross is crime, but drawing pigs with political cartoons or satire is perfectly accetable. So end result is, religious people are worth more and better protected than non-religious. I dont want to be a second class citizen, I want same protection for my feelings than what the religious people have, or actually none for anybody because as stated earlier, I dont really see a way to for a system which takes into account everyones feelings. Society and goverment, atleast in Finland, isnt smart enough to do that.

Bottomline, it has nothing to do with wanting to insult others but more to do with getting treated equally.
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aamirsaab
06-24-2008, 03:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suomipoika
....
Those are the "judges" in Finland too as to what is allowed and what is not. To give an example. Drawing pig on cross is crime, but drawing pigs with political cartoons or satire is perfectly accetable. So end result is, religious people are worth more and better protected than non-religious. I dont want to be a second class citizen, I want same protection for my feelings than what the religious people have, or actually none for anybody because as stated earlier, I dont really see a way to for a system which takes into account everyones feelings. Society and goverment, atleast in Finland, isnt smart enough to do that.
Clearly I have more learning to do with regards to Finland's social norms.

Bottomline, it has nothing to do with wanting to insult others but more to do with getting treated equally.
I'm all for equality, my friend.

Peace
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Keltoi
06-24-2008, 09:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Care to explain how the cartoons were criticism?
From a political standpoint the critique was obvious. People are strapping on bombs and killing themselves and others with the justification of "defense of Islam" or some other such religious excuse. The criticism was quite apparent. One can argue that it was offensive, but one can't honestly suggest there was no criticism involved.
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SixTen
06-24-2008, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
From a political standpoint the critique was obvious. People are strapping on bombs and killing themselves and others with the justification of "defense of Islam" or some other such religious excuse. The criticism was quite apparent. One can argue that it was offensive, but one can't honestly suggest there was no criticism involved.
Well, their was a picture of the Islamic prophet with a bomb for a hat. Care to tell me, how this is political criticism?

Its one thing, to make a picture of say, Osama with a bomb as a hat - then to someone who has nothing to do with it. Or do you feel you have some certain knowledge to state otherwise?
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Keltoi
06-25-2008, 01:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Well, their was a picture of the Islamic prophet with a bomb for a hat. Care to tell me, how this is political criticism?

Its one thing, to make a picture of say, Osama with a bomb as a hat - then to someone who has nothing to do with it. Or do you feel you have some certain knowledge to state otherwise?
Oh c'mon, I know you aren't that naive. Why Mohammed? Because the Prophet Mohammed is the key figure in Islam. Imagine if Christians were going around blowing stuff up, not to mention themselves, and stated they were doing it for Christ(Christianity). A newspaper printed a cartoon of Christ with bombs hanging from the Cross...are you telling me you wouldn't get the criticism? Of course you would. Is it offensive? Hell yes.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-25-2008, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Oh c'mon, I know you aren't that naive. Why Mohammed?
I have been trying so hard to avoid controversy, but what the heck. If you go to any urban neighborhood in America... any one at all, and say this to some one, you're asking for a butt kicking! Your Mamma! With that in mind, yes... maybe it's better to just shut the cake hole. Some people care about their mothers. Some people care about their prophet. Some people CARE!

The Ninth Scribe
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Keltoi
06-25-2008, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I have been trying so hard to avoid controversy, but what the heck. If you go to any urban neighborhood in America... any one at all, and say this to some one, you're asking for a butt kicking! Your Mamma! With that in mind, yes... maybe it's better to just shut the cake hole. Some people care about their mothers. Some people care about their prophet. Some people CARE!

The Ninth Scribe
Are you actually suggesting people say things that other people don't like? Wow, what a concept.

You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Are you actually suggesting people say things that other people don't like? Wow, what a concept.

You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?
Exactly. I think freedom of speech should be total. If you want to ridicule Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc.., it is up to you as long as no one gets hurt. If your feelings get hurt, so be it, just ignore.
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YusufNoor
06-26-2008, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Oh c'mon, I know you aren't that naive. Why Mohammed? Because the Prophet Mohammed is the key figure in Islam.

but the Prophet[pbuh] was NEVER a terrorist no matter how much you misread the Seerah!


Imagine if Christians were going around blowing stuff up, not to mention themselves, and stated they were doing it for Christ(Christianity). A newspaper printed a cartoon of Christ with bombs hanging from the Cross...

i rather doubt it, the "sect" of the group involved would more likely take the hit! Jesus[pbuh] escapes except in bad art...

are you telling me you wouldn't get the criticism? Of course you would. Is it offensive? Hell yes.

Peace,

on a different note, if 9/11 is the mother of all terrorists attacks, then the cartoons should have either Dubya, Cheney, Rummy, Condi, General Meyers or even Colin Powell in them! put them in turbans if you want as they are ones in charge of "Islamic terrorism!"

link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...89869548020370


You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?
try saying that in Beantown! :D

:w:
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 04:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Are you actually suggesting people say things that other people don't like? Wow, what a concept.

You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?
Your confusing issues again. My point is that provocation ALWAYS leads to fights! Some are silly fights, like what you described, the football teams. Others are more... personal, and those are the ones that always cause problems. My youngest son, Kevin, when he was 14, carved a swastika onto my driveway. He thought it was funny. I went ballistic and reminded him that our house could have been burned to the ground over something like that - and no one would have felt sorry for us! There is a line that should be drawn because when people step over it, silly things can become very ugly very quickly. I teach my children to not invite this type of ugliness... even if it does seem silly to them. The Holocaust is not a joke. A person's mother is not a joke. A people's prophet is not a joke. Swastikas are not a joke. In fact, a law was recently passed in Massachusetts: a person who is caught making these "funnies" can go to jail for Hate Crimes!

I wouldn't have blamed a Jew for burning my house down, if they had seen the swastika. I don't blame anyone for an attack that is provoked.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Exactly. I think freedom of speech should be total. If you want to ridicule Christians, Muslims, Jews, Atheists, etc.., it is up to you as long as no one gets hurt. If your feelings get hurt, so be it, just ignore.
No holds barred... total and complete free-for-all? Society would crumble so fast it would make your head spin! Words become deeds very quickly. If people say what ever they want, they will begin to do whatever they want, in no time at all. Vulgar language will produce a vulgar people.

Personally, I believe Bush has caused an aweful lot of misery here and overseas ~ but, sticks and stones, right?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Tornado
06-26-2008, 06:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
No holds barred... total and complete free-for-all? Society would crumble so fast it would make your head spin! Words become deeds very quickly. If people say what ever they want, they will begin to do whatever they want, in no time at all. Vulgar language will produce a vulgar people.

The Ninth Scribe
How do you know this exactly, when has this happened? How do you know that such a society would crumble. We are kind of close to it and we see nothing close to it. If you want to insult me with words, go ahead, as I don't get hurt physically.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-26-2008, 06:44 PM
^^But u get offended emotionally. Gotcha.


On a side note...

If you support hatred, ridiculing, disprespect or racism of a religion/group of people, you are a serious nutcase! Don't hope for peace if you support something that prevents peace in the first place! By golly, it's not that hard. Don't justify hatred. PERIOD.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
How do you know this exactly, when has this happened? How do you know that such a society would crumble. We are kind of close to it and we see nothing close to it. If you want to insult me with words, go ahead, as I don't get hurt physically.
Pick a major city? It all began with the free speech. Now we have stuff like car-porn. These metal testicles that hang from one's back bumper (a weird form of self-expression). Sure, YOU might think it's funny, but what do you intend to say to your 8 year old daughter? And then there is all the streaking, running buck naked through a public place. Again, self expression, but you wouldn't want your 8 year old daughter to do that. Hmmm. There's, of course, the middle finger. No biggy, but again, you wouldn't want people to teach this to your 8 year old daughter.

Gee, it's funny the way my childhood comes back to me. It all began when I was 8 years old, with a poster containing 24 or so screen shots of an old woman sitting on a rocker. These screen shots appeared under a banner that read: Express Yourself. In the last of the screen shots, the old woman was giving the finger to the camera... and you can guess the rest? I don't know, I can see how words would cause deeds of the same nature. I can see how this would snow-ball.

The alternative? Death... or something very close to it. A billion human souls, without feelings, that don't give a **** about anything. Problem solved... anyone could say whatever they wanted and no one would even care.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Muezzin
06-26-2008, 07:05 PM
In a way, it's very amusing to see people get so hot and bothered over so simply an issue.

In the UK, you are free to say what you want, as long as you're not inciting hatred and/or violence, as that would be a crime. Most people would agree with this.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
In a way, it's very amusing to see people get so hot and bothered over so simply an issue.

In the UK, you are free to say what you want, as long as you're not inciting hatred and/or violence, as that would be a crime. Most people would agree with this.
Yes, but beauty isn't the only thing determined by the eye of the beholder. I would not go into a black neighborhood and call a local n----r. I would not go into a working class neighborhood and insult a family's mother. I would not go to a Jewish neighborhood wearing a swastika. Nor would I encourage that type of freedom in public. So, I'm not going to encourage Denmark, by believing they meant no harm by what they did. I think they had every intention of starting something nasty... and that's OK too ~ so long as they don't whine 'pity me' about it afterward.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Tornado
06-26-2008, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
^^But u get offended emotionally. Gotcha.


On a side note...

If you support hatred, ridiculing, disprespect or racism of a religion/group of people, you are a serious nutcase! Don't hope for peace if you support something that prevents peace in the first place! By golly, it's not that hard. Don't justify hatred. PERIOD.
If I get offended emotionally, I should just ignore it and decide not to listen to it. Words shouldn't break you.

I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it. If you don't agree with something, then you can respond since you would also have free speech.
Reply

KAding
06-27-2008, 07:43 PM
So...are we in agreement than that the some of the earlier Qu'ran quotes I posted should be outlawed? Or is that different? If so, why? They cause offense, no?
Reply

KAding
06-27-2008, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
i speak the truth! go to youtube you will find a ton of videos by americans playing that song with pictures of soldiers etc etc, always with the drama, like a movie.

and what hate crime have i commited????? i made a rude comment against americans? lol guess what? i too am an American! straight from los angelas california (which should be for the mexicans though). what can i say? God decided to make me a very mixed human, hence lol no American can accuse me of anything as i myself am American. :D

bet you never expected that, that good ole prince is American ey, from the city of angels. :D
Yes yes, but according to author of the original article your gross generalizations would most likely be considered hate speech. After all, they were pretty much identical in nature to those of Mark Steyn, who he wants to see convicted.
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Pygoscelis
06-28-2008, 12:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Oh c'mon, I know you aren't that naive. Why Mohammed? Because the Prophet Mohammed is the key figure in Islam. Imagine if Christians were going around blowing stuff up, not to mention themselves, and stated they were doing it for Christ(Christianity). A newspaper printed a cartoon of Christ with bombs hanging from the Cross...are you telling me you wouldn't get the criticism? Of course you would. Is it offensive? Hell yes.
This isn't directed at you Keltoi, but the above sparks something in my mind.

The religious have been attacking and slandering the non-religious for centuries. The point that the very religions themselves often incorporate very anti-"infidel" beliefs, which are accepted as mainstream and pushed as just and right.

It is the belief of most christians for example that I as a non-believer deserve eternal torture unless I accept Christ as my personal saviour from it. That is extremely insulting (on many levels) but so mainstream that I don't think most believers can see the numerous reasons why.

Given the above I have little compassion for religious people who feel their religion is being ridiculed. Turnabout is fair play as they say.
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-28-2008, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Are you actually suggesting people say things that other people don't like? Wow, what a concept.

You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?
Indeed. And who is more in the wrong, the man who sticks his tongue out, or the man who chops it off?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth Scribe
I wouldn't have blamed a Jew for burning my house down, if they had seen the swastika. I don't blame anyone for an attack that is provoked.
So.. you pick the man who chops it off? I find that outlook alarming. It has no place in a free society.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-28-2008, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
If I get offended emotionally, I should just ignore it and decide not to listen to it. Words shouldn't break you.

I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it. If you don't agree with something, then you can respond since you would also have free speech.
I dont care what definition of free speech you bring to the table...don't expect peace from anyone or anywhere if you support the same reason that stops it! Plain and simple. And if your going to say or do something inciteful, expect a verbal thrashing.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-28-2008, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
So...are we in agreement than that the some of the earlier Qu'ran quotes I posted should be outlawed? Or is that different? If so, why? They cause offense, no?
We dont cut and paste verses like other religions do. What verses are u referring to?
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-28-2008, 12:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Pick a major city? It all began with the free speech. Now we have stuff like car-porn.
You mean the "jesus fish" I see on cars? That symbol, the vesica pisces, was originally a pagan fertility symbol meant to represent a woman's genitals, for those who didn't know. Every time I see a "jesus fish" I smile at the irony.

These metal testicles that hang from one's back bumper (a weird form of self-expression). Sure, YOU might think it's funny, but what do you intend to say to your 8 year old daughter?
That is funny. You seriously have a problem with it? Get over yourself. As for my 8 year old daughter, I doubt she'd care or ask what it was anymore than she'd as what the mudflaps were.

And then there is all the streaking, running buck naked through a public place. Again, self expression, but you wouldn't want your 8 year old daughter to do that.
Actually... I would. In a society that could handle it. Its only outlandish and a spectacle becasue of the ridiculus nudity taboo we've developed here in western society. I hope it will fade and eventually people will be more comfortable with the human body.

The alternative? Death... or something very close to it. A billion human souls, without feelings, that don't give a **** about anything. Problem solved... anyone could say whatever they wanted and no one would even care.
Why do you equate people expressing themselves to Death or people without feelings who don't give a **** about anything? I can as easily suggest that without such free expression what you've got is a society of mindless obedient drones. No life there.
Reply

KAding
06-28-2008, 09:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
We dont cut and paste verses like other religions do. What verses are u referring to?
Stuff like "Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (98:6)" and "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk (51:5)". Do you agree these are insulting? And like Pygoscelis alread pointed out, the idea that us unbelievers deserve eternal hellfire is in itself highly insulting and disrespectful, yet it is so ingrained in the three monotheist religious doctrines.
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-28-2008, 03:45 PM
Hmm no it's not. Try facing reality. It's not a book of fairytales. Also, I think u should know by now not to take verses out of context. You have to look at what's before and after it. And even those have conditions.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-28-2008, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Hmm no it's not. Try facing reality. It's not a book of fairytales. Also, I think u should know by now not to take verses out of context. You have to look at what's before and after it.
The same should be done with the cartoons!
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-28-2008, 03:58 PM
What should be done? If you mean facing reality, well I've been doin that for a while now. They only look foolish with what they do, so let them keep doing it. I wont give air to their ignorance.
Reply

Muezzin
06-28-2008, 09:43 PM
*sigh*

I wish that sounded less condescending, but I'm going to follow it up with one of my catchphrases such as 'get back to the topic, people,' or 'We're going off-topic' or 'Spot of Darjeeling, mate?'

So the condescension kind of multpilies so much that it explodes the consciousness of the universe and cancels itself out into some semblance of comedy.

Fingers crossed.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Why do you equate people expressing themselves to Death or people without feelings who don't give a **** about anything? I can as easily suggest that without such free expression what you've got is a society of mindless obedient drones. No life there.
Get over myself? What exactly do I have to do with this? I'm not the one who started these insults and I'm not the one who is doing all the whining about it. You should get over yourself. You're the one who's whining. I don't mind passion. Heck, I don't even mind a good punch out, for that matter. I spent 20 years of my life as a rebel rouser and I've never once gone home to cry to mummy.

You should understand the Nature of the human Beast. Fact: If you mess around with people, that's fine. Just don't cry about it later on, when you're handed your @ss over it. Ninety-nine point nine percent of the time, this name calling crap has led to fights on your school play-ground. One kid wants to jack another kid up and he gets his teeth knocked out. Even the school principle knows this and now they punish BOTH the kids; the one who STARTED it is just as guilty as the one who FINISHED it.

The issue on this thread is no different. If they want to provoke the Muslims, well, they did that... and they got a double helping back. It hardly comes as a surprize. It doesn't "shock" me and it shouldn't "shock" them.

What I meant by Death is this. If anyone could say anything they wanted to, without anyone else caring... well, what's the point of even talking then? You say you like passion, but you seem to think it can be contained to a certain fixed and safe level. Maybe it's a guy thing, but passion is never contained. Hence the line: Don't write a check that your mouth can't cash.

This is exactly what happened. They knew it could get out of hand, but they rolled the dice and did it any way. Now they have the nerve to cry about it?

Gimme a break!

The Ninth Scribe
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Uthman
06-29-2008, 06:38 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it.
But why? I apologise if I am making you repeat yourself, but I simply don't understand it. Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated? What possible benefit could come of them, that could not be achieved in more acceptable ways?

Regards
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
But why? Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated?
I'm still trying to figure that one out. The last time I heard one of my children swear, I fed him a spoonful of hot-sauce. Now, aparently, this one thinks we should all be able to say what ever the heck we want - but I know quite a few school teachers who disagree. No one likes trash-talk. It should have no place in schools, on TV or in any public venue. Why? Because trashy thoughts because trashy words, that become trashy deeds.

Maybe he never went to kindergarten?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Keltoi
06-29-2008, 07:32 PM
Why should insults be tolerated?...Why should compliments be tolerated? Why should bad TV programming be tolerated? Why should people who can't write be given publishing contracts? Why can somebody carry around a sign at a protest rally calling the president a bad name and questioning his moral ethics? I could go on and on. It is called FREE SPEECH. It is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the most important freedom granted us by whatever constitution we happen to live by.

Speech is speech...if you can't handle being insulted and feel the need to resort to violence to make your point...well that says more about you than it does free speech.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Why should insults be tolerated?...Why should compliments be tolerated? Why should bad TV programming be tolerated? Why should people who can't write be given publishing contracts? Why can somebody carry around a sign at a protest rally calling the president a bad name and questioning his moral ethics? I could go on and on. It is called FREE SPEECH. It is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the most important freedom granted us by whatever constitution we happen to live by.

Speech is speech...if you can't handle being insulted and feel the need to resort to violence to make your point...well that says more about you than it does free speech.
Why can't kids use the f-word at their teacher or others? Why can't Hip Hop be produced unedited? Why is it illegal to be naked in public? Why does the U.S. government have the right to classify information and keep it secret from the people?

Free speech doesn't give a person the right to be lewd. It doesn't give them the right to be disorderly. It doesn't give them the right to be obscene and it doesn't give them the right to incite violence. You can say things like: I hate the Queen. You do have the right and you don't even have to explain why. But if you state that the Queen is a sl-t ~ well that's just plain slander, and slander is illegal, sir. Are you trying to say slander should become... legal?

I would have prefered this issue as a lawsuit, to be settled in a court ~ but that's just more to my personal style.

Slander:

1. (Law) Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slander

Libel:

1. (Law) The publication of something false which damages a person's reputation.
2. any damaging or unflattering representation or statement.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libel

Choose your weapon folks! Neither of these laws specify that the plaintiff (person who suffered), has to be living. They only require that the form of slander or libel was made public (eg: not in secret).

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Tornado
06-29-2008, 09:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings,



But why? I apologise if I am making you repeat yourself, but I simply don't understand it. Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated? What possible benefit could come of them, that could not be achieved in more acceptable ways?

Regards
As I said no one gets hurt. I'm sure hatred, ridicule, and insults are tolerated for most things, just not religion, and specifically Islam. People, I think, don't actually want to make fun of religion, but want that ability to. It's so that they can exercise their free speech. If there exist a group you feel is destructive to society, you should be able to speak out. If you are unable to speak out, that group may get out of hand.
Let's take a very different example. In my opinion, you should be able to say that Holocaust didn't happen or that the claimed 6 million Jews who died was an exaggeration. This forces people to go back to evidence and see how accurate that event was. If the evidence is there, the person making the claim just looks foolish but like I said, is still able to exercise their freedom of speech.
Reply

Tornado
06-29-2008, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Why can't kids use the f-word at their teacher or others? Why can't Hip Hop be produced unedited? Why is it illegal to be naked in public? Why does the U.S. government have the right to classify information and keep it secret from the people?

Free speech doesn't give a person the right to be lewd. It doesn't give them the right to be disorderly. It doesn't give them the right to be obscene and it doesn't give them the right to incite violence. You can say things like: I hate the Queen. You do have the right and you don't even have to explain why. But if you state that the Queen is a sl-t ~ well that's just plain slander, and slander is illegal, sir. Are you trying to say slander should become... legal?

I would have prefered this issue as a lawsuit, to be settled in a court ~ but that's just more to my personal style.

Slander:

1. (Law) Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slander

Libel:

1. (Law) The publication of something false which damages a person's reputation.
2. any damaging or unflattering representation or statement.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libel

Choose your weapon folks! Neither of these laws specify that the plaintiff (person who suffered), has to be living. They only require that the form of slander or libel was made public (eg: not in secret).

The Ninth Scribe
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can lie and get away with it.
Reply

KAding
06-29-2008, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Light of Heaven
Hmm no it's not. Try facing reality. It's not a book of fairytales. Also, I think u should know by now not to take verses out of context. You have to look at what's before and after it. And even those have conditions.
I think the context is one of enormous disrespect for anything but "people of the book", and even that seems on shaky grounds at times in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran has no respect for polytheists(and in extension I suppose atheists), continuously equating them with wrong-doers. For gods sake, you are condemning us to hell where our skins get burned off again and again, over and over, forever! Do you honestly don't see the disrespect and insult in that? That we are so evil that we deserve eternal hellfire?
Reply

KAding
06-29-2008, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Greetings,

But why? I apologise if I am making you repeat yourself, but I simply don't understand it. Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated? What possible benefit could come of them, that could not be achieved in more acceptable ways?

Regards
The problem is in defining what is "insulting" and "ridicule" and what is not. Who defines that? The majority? The insulted minorities? Is it insulting to say Jesus was not God? Is it insulting to say Muhammed was not a messenger of God? Is it insulting to say God does not exist? Is it insulting to say you apostate from Islam? Is it insulting to eat pork? Who answers these questions? The Qu'ran and the Sunnah? Mao's Red Book? Do we hold referendum's on it? How can we define these limits without trampling on rights of others. Insults are in the eye of the beholder.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 09:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can lie and get away with it.
Well, there's an aweful lot of that going on. But, I have to ask. You've seen this cartoon? Would you define it as slander?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Freedom of speech doesn't mean you can lie and get away with it.
Well, there's an aweful lot of that going on. But, I have to ask. How would you define this? I mean, I'm adding this fact to light, which also includes just words:

Holocaust denial is illegal in a number of European countries. Many countries also have broader laws against libel or inciting racial hatred, as do a number of countries that do not specifically have laws against Holocaust denial, such as Canada and the United Kingdom. The Council of Europe's 2003 Additional Protocol to the Convention on Cyber Crime, concerning the prosecution of acts of a racist and xenophobic nature committed through computer systems includes an article 6 titled Denial, gross minimisation, approval or justification of genocide or crimes against humanity, though this does not have the status of law.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_ag...locaust_denial
The Ninth Scribe
Reply

KAding
06-29-2008, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
But, I have to ask. You've seen this cartoon? Would you define it as slander?

The Ninth Scribe
Which cartoon, there were several. No, I would not consider them slander. They were a valid political criticism of violence committed by Islamic radicals, where Islam and political violence and explicitly linked by the perpetrators.
Reply

Tornado
06-29-2008, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Well, there's an aweful lot of that going on. But, I have to ask. Would you define this as slander?

The Ninth Scribe
Looking at the definition, I guess I would but it would depend on the situation and severity.
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Looking at the definition, I guess I would but it would depend on the situation and severity.
All I'm saying is that there really is a line. The Jews enforced it by preventing us from saying two words together and the Muslims are demanding the same respect. If it's good for the goose, it's also good for the gander.

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-29-2008, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Which cartoon, there were several. No, I would not consider them slander. They were a valid political criticism of violence committed by Islamic radicals, where Islam and political violence and explicitly linked by the perpetrators.
Yes, but they only serve to encourage the same behavior they're complaining about. What good is that?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

Tornado
06-29-2008, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
All I'm saying is that there really is a line. The Jews enforced it by preventing us from saying two words together and the Muslims are demanding the same respect. If it's good for the goose, it's also good for the gander.

The Ninth Scribe
Like I've said, I believe in total freedom of speech, so they shouldn't be an exception either.
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-29-2008, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, but they only serve to encourage the same behavior they're complaining about. What good is that?

The Ninth Scribe
The reaction to the cartoons proved the cartoons right. This makes the artist's point twice over, once in the cartoon itself, and once in the reaction to the cartoon.

So again, who is more horrible, the man who sticks his tongue out or the man who chops it off?
Reply

Ninth_Scribe
06-30-2008, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
So again, who is more horrible, the man who sticks his tongue out or the man who chops it off?
Any kindergarten teacher can answer that... they BOTH get sent to the Principle's office! But why would grown men behave like children? That's what I'd like to know! I can understand an eight year old doing this. I could even understand a 16 year old doing this. But I'm not inclined to let a bunch of grown men (supposedly) behave like juvenile delinquents! I'll be seeing them after class, and as for the rest of you. Take note of the reality and don't throw gas on an open flame. You could get yourselves burned.

There, I'm done saying my peace on this subject. Just what I needed to wake up to... a planet full of teenagers... in full twit. Where's the **** asparin!?

The Ninth Scribe
Reply

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