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crayon
06-17-2008, 01:12 PM
I just heard a similar sentence in a film I watched, and its worth thinking about... Is doing a small bad thing in order to do something much greater worth it?

Yes/No and explain please.
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------
06-17-2008, 01:14 PM
:salamext:

Advertise music with Islaam? No.

EDIT: I mean advertise Islaam with music.. sorry my minds elsewhere :hiding:
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crayon
06-17-2008, 01:22 PM
How about cheating in elections for example, not necessarily presidential ones or anything, say a small organization, because you know you will benefit it more than the other person?

Or doing something robin hood style, take from the rich, give to the poor?

Does it depend on the situation?..
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------
06-17-2008, 01:26 PM
:salamext:

Allaahu Aalim. This is like the small evil or the greater evil, e.g. when a baby is born and only one of them can survive, you are allowed to save the mother. ( I think )
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'Abd al-Baari
06-17-2008, 01:35 PM
Assalamu Alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakaatuh,

This might be of some purpose here, Insha'Allah. :)

The basic rule with regard to lying is that it is not permitted, but there are certain circumstances in which Islam permits lying to serve a greater purpose or to prevent harm.

One of these situations is when a person mediates between two disputing parties in order to reconcile between them, if reconciliation cannot be achieved in any other way. Um Kalthoom (may Allaah be pleased with her) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not a liar who reconciles between people and conveys something good or says something good.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 2495).

Another example is a man’s speaking to his wife, or a woman speaking to her husband, with regard to matters that will strengthen the ties of love between them, even if that is accompanied by exaggeration. Asma’ bint Yazeed said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.’” (Reported by al-Tirmidhi, 1862; he said: it is a hasan hadeeth. See also Saheeh Muslim, 4717).
:w:
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------
06-17-2008, 01:36 PM
:salamext:

But what about at other times, e.g. nasheeds with music, etc.
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'Abd al-Baari
06-17-2008, 01:40 PM
:sl:

Nasheeds with Music, in my 'opinion' are completely Haraam. If you can spread the message of Islaam in a Halal way, then there is no need to do Haraam. :)

:w:
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-17-2008, 01:44 PM
nope, good cant come from evil.


for the greater good <-- whatever you do for the greater good cannot be evil.
for example if you shoot a man to save a nation thats not evil.
if you punch a boy to save a group, thats not evil
if you steal from the rich and give to the poor <-- that is EVIL
if you establis a islamic state and impose regulations for the rich to give zakaah to the poor <-- thats NOT evil


the lesser of two evils however is something completely different, thats you achknowledging that what your doing IS evil, but you fear a greater evil if you dont do it....
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crayon
06-17-2008, 01:51 PM
"if you establish a islamic state and impose regulations for the rich to give zakaah to the poor"

Say for that example, you had to kill the person in charge of that country, would that still not be evil? Even if the country was doing great, good system of ruling, etc., it's just not islamic. Would you still consider it okay?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-17-2008, 01:52 PM
^no it wouldnt be evil. if this man is letting the rich go fat and the poor starve then i say chop off his head



Assalamu Alaikum
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crayon
06-17-2008, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by - Serene -
:salamext:

But what about at other times, e.g. nasheeds with music, etc.
For nasheeds with music, it's completely possible to do them without music, so I don't think that would be allowed. But what I mean is that if there were no other choice, either do the bad deed and gain a great benefit from it, or do nothing.
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crayon
06-17-2008, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^no it wouldnt be evil. if this man is letting the rich go fat and the poor starve then i say chop off his head



Assalamu Alaikum
But then with that reasoning, many (if not most) rulers should be killed....?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-17-2008, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
But then with that reasoning, many (if not most) rulers should be killed....?
yep

they can always repent n change if they want
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aamirsaab
06-17-2008, 03:02 PM
:sl:
It depends on the circumstance really. Some cases it would be allowed say like laying the smackdown on a bully - though not via bullying cus that would be ironic and wrong. It depends on how greater the good and how little the evil. If it is something insignificant i.e some random guy of the street yells ''paki'' then you can't use the greater good argument (i.e I want to stop that person from hurtling racial abuse and causing fitna in the society!) to go beat him to a bloody pulp.
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 03:16 PM
Depends what the "evil" is....
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Umar001
06-17-2008, 03:19 PM
Salam Alaykum,

With threads which have these type of themes I get confused, are we asked for our viewpoint even if it contradicts the Islamic viewpoint, or are we asked what we think the Islamic viewpoint is, or...?
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IceQueen~
06-17-2008, 03:31 PM
I completely disagree...

There is a hadeeth in Sahih Muslim in which he (saw) saw people being punished during the night journey- one of the things he saw was people who had one half of their bodies so beautiful and the other half -extreme ugliness

The interpretation of this was those who mixed good deeds with evil.
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------
06-17-2008, 03:32 PM
:salamext:

Proof might help...
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
I completely disagree...

There is a hadeeth in Sahih Muslim in which he (saw) saw people being punished during the night journey- one of the things he saw was people who had one half of their bodies so beautiful and the other half -extreme ugliness

The interpretation of this was those who mixed good deeds with evil.
So that sort of says that you can't do something evil for something good? But I'm no scholar, could someone help?

I kinda feel that you should stay well away from evil deeds... hence the word "evil"...
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------
06-17-2008, 03:47 PM
:salamext:

She hasn't provided proof. For all we know she could be makng the hadith up.
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IceQueen~
06-17-2008, 03:49 PM
subhanAllah! What an accusation to make against an innocent God-fearing Muslim! It's a famous hadith I never realised you'd never heard it?
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 03:52 PM
I've heard it before... can't remember the details though lol
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------
06-17-2008, 03:52 PM
:salamext:

Innocent God-fearing Muslims don't lie ;D
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by - Serene -
:salamext:

Innocent God-fearing Muslims don't lie ;D
woah sis don't say things like that....

now back on topic
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crayon
06-17-2008, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Salam Alaykum,

With threads which have these type of themes I get confused, are we asked for our viewpoint even if it contradicts the Islamic viewpoint, or are we asked what we think the Islamic viewpoint is, or...?
Wa alaykum Asalam,

I'm just looking for a discussion really... People's opinions, the islamic point of view (if there is one, which i think there is in this case), different scenarios, etc..
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DaNgErOuS MiNdS
06-17-2008, 04:55 PM
must have been kingdom of heaven that you watched...inni

and I think it matters what that little evil is and whether its just you who considers it to be a little evil and whether it will actually do a greater good or greater harm
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 04:59 PM
My answer is: No!

If Allah has forbidden something, then I feel it should not be done. We are not put into any situation, except that Allah has allowed us to be faced with this situation. If Allah has allowed us to be faced with this situation, then surely he would want us to deal with it in a way that is halal.

As far as I am aware, Allah has given us guidance for all situations, even for the most exceptional of circumstances.
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Ali.
06-17-2008, 05:20 PM
Hmm, I have a scenario that I quickly made up now:

What if you were planning to free a slave, got him, and as you were exiting the "slave masters' territory", somebody asks:

"Is that a slave you've freed? If so, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call the guards."
"Uhh, no. No, he's a friend; he's dressed up for a play showing all the advantages of the slave trade and why is should still carry on."

Would you lot think this is right, or wrong?
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ali.
Hmm, I have a scenario that I quickly made up now:

What if you were planning to free a slave, got him, and as you were exiting the "slave masters' territory", somebody asks:

"Is that a slave you've freed? If so, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call the guards."
"Uhh, no. No, he's a friend; he's dressed up for a play showing all the advantages of the slave trade and why is should still carry on."

Would you lot think this is right, or wrong?
hmm... I see you're point. Allah knows best :)
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:20 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Ali.
Hmm, I have a scenario that I quickly made up now:

What if you were planning to free a slave, got him, and as you were exiting the "slave masters' territory", somebody asks:

"Is that a slave you've freed? If so, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call the guards."
"Uhh, no. No, he's a friend; he's dressed up for a play showing all the advantages of the slave trade and why is should still carry on."

Would you lot think this is right, or wrong?

I think it depends.

Why are you freeing a slave?
What other means have you exhausted?

:w:
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S1aveofA11ah
06-17-2008, 06:23 PM
Well I'm not giving out a fatwa but I believe there is a general principle in Islam which is certain actions can be done (which may be viewed as wrong) when there is a need. By this I mean no choice - like 'do or die'.

A classic - I'm sure many have heard of it before:

You are stuck in a remote island after your ship sinks. The island is quite barren but there are some pigs hogs/pigs nearby which you can kill for food. The rescue parties have not been able to locate you for some days and you are slowly starving to death. You are in a situation where there is no choice except to eat the pigs else its suicide which is haram.

In the above case you are doing a major evil (eating pork is a major sin) in order to do an immense good (saving of a human life - yours/others).

So I would say sometimes, in exceptional (dire need) cases, the answer maybe 'yes'. Allahualim - Allah knows best.
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Ali.
06-17-2008, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Why are you freeing a slave?
:w:

He has been kidnapped from his home in order to work 18 hours a day carrying loads of (item) to and fro a place, and in return he gets nothing. The reason for freeing is because they are taking away his human rights to do whatever he likes, and just like the rest of us, he deserves to lead a normal life.

What other means have you exhausted?
Exhausted? :?
What do you mean, bro'?
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by S1aveofA11ah
A classic - I'm sure many have heard of it before:

You are stuck in a remote island after your ship sinks. The island is quite barren but there are some pigs hogs/pigs nearby which you can kill for food. The rescue parties have not been able to locate you for some days and you are slowly starving to death. You are in a situation where there is no choice except to eat the pigs else its suicide which is haram.

In the above case you are doing a major evil (eating pork is a major sin) in order to do an immense good (saving of a human life - yours/others).

So I would say sometimes, in exceptional (dire need) cases, the answer maybe 'yes'. Allahualim - Allah knows best.
In such a scenario, I believe you should choose the lesser of two evils which is an established principle in the Shari'ah. I think another post on this thread has alluded to this as well. :)
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ali.
Originally Posted by Osman
What other means have you exhausted?
Exhausted? :?
What do you mean, bro'?
Sorry. :-[

I meant what other means have you tried using to free the slave? e.g. have you asked the slave master nicely?
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I just heard a similar sentence in a film I watched, and its worth thinking about... Is doing a small bad thing in order to do something much greater worth it?

Yes/No and explain please.
It depends on the case. It's wrong to spy on ordinary citizens in order to secure the state, it's wrong to ban gay marriage in order to protect the regular marriage and public morals, it's wrong to kill people in order to prevent further crime. I'm opposed to violating indivual rights in order to bring good for the society or even worse, the state, at least in cases I mentioned.

As for the baby whose death saves the world from cancer... I think it's acceptable..
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 06:34 PM
It's like the saying, "The end justifies the means". but then again, that isn't an islamic perspective...
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Ali.
06-17-2008, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Sorry. :-[

I meant what other means have you tried using to free the slave? e.g. have you asked the slave master nicely?
Oh. The whole country allows slave trading and this guy who frees the slave is one out of an extreme minority that are trying to help free the slaves, one by one.
If you ask the slave master nicely, he will kill you. There have been many stories and similar incidents.

If this was the case, bro', what would you say?
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As for the baby whose death saves the world from cancer... I think it's acceptable..
I dislike hypothetical scenarios like this. I believe that Allah would never allow such scenarios to exist and instead we should focus on reality.

This post isn't addressed to anyone in particular...I'm just saying. Like. :)

By the way, I just thought of something. Allah judges our actions by our intention, so if we always take the course of action that we think would please Allah the most, then Inshaa'Allah we will not have sinned.
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 06:40 PM
Ah, of course.
I don't think slavery in any form should be allowed, no matter how humanely the owners are supposed to treat their slaves, no matter what benefits it brings to the state, no matter if abolishing it should collapse the country's economy..
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:44 PM
EDIT: I don't want to get off-topic. Never mind!
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
EDIT: I don't want to get off-topic. Never mind!
EDIT: Bye bye my off-topic reply... lol
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
EDIT: I don't want to get off-topic. Never mind!
It's not off topic. Quite the contrary.
And it's definitely not employment (that's what you said), it's owning a human being, no matter what you call it.
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Ali.
06-17-2008, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's not off topic. Quite the contrary.
And it's definitely not employment (that's what you said), it's owning a human being, no matter what you call it.
Employment in this case would be servant I think, slave is different. Allahu a'lim.

Osman bro' by the way, I think you missed my post replying to you up there ^
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:50 PM
Fine. It was just a thought and clearly an il-informed one at that. I haven't really read into the topic myself, so I'm not really in a position to discuss/debate it. :)
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Ali.
Employment in this case would be servant I think, slave is different. Allahu a'lim.

Osman bro' by the way, I think you missed my post replying to you up there ^
I know that, I'm not the one who said it.
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 06:52 PM
i think maybe it depends upon the situation. But it's still an evil deed... Ya Allah please guide us all in such situations, Ameen.
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 07:01 PM
Regarding slavery, according to evidences cited in this thread, Islam aimed to eliminate slavery completely, but slowly. Much in the same way as the limit on Alcohol consumption, eventually leading to it's total prohibition.
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
Regarding slavery, according to evidences cited in this thread, Islam aimed to eliminate slavery completely, but slowly. Much in the same way as the limit on Alcohol consumption, eventually leading to it's total prohibition.
It's not the same at all. The Quran never says slavery is haram nor that it should be gradually abolished (liberation of slaves doesn't necessarily lead to that), and it's got specific rules about enslavement of war prisoners for instance, or unbelievers.
Whatever the Quran says about slavery, the muslim world failed to abolish it. In fact it was one of the most important players in the global slave market.
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 07:38 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
No, the law hasn't changed at all. The situation has changed thanks to the implementation of the law. So it is not that slavery itself has become prohibited in Islam but that the implementation of the Islamic laws have alleviated the injustices associated with slavery, restricted the sources, and encouraged and mandated the release of slaves, so that today the re-implementation of slavery is no longer feasible.
Regards
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's not the same at all. The Quran never says slavery is haram nor that it should be gradually abolished (liberation of slaves doesn't necessarily lead to that), and it's got specific rules about enslavement of war prisoners for instance, or unbelievers.
Whatever the Quran says about slavery, the muslim world failed to abolish it. In fact it was one of the most important players in the global slave market.
Please refer to this ayat:-

33. Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the wealth which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), {24:33}

If you ask me, slaves were treated quite nicely... becoming servents almost. Hence: NO SLAVERY.
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 07:45 PM
"There are three people whose prayers are not accepted. And one of these three is a man who enslaves a free person (Rajulun iitabada muharraran)" (Sunan Abî Dawûd)

From this post by Ansar.
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 07:49 PM
Slaves were treated in a rather humane manner in Islam, I'm not denying that, Rosegold. But slavery is salvery nonetheless.
Osman: Slavery was abolished in the muslims world in the past century due to colonialism and pressures coming from the West. You have yet to prove Islam aims to abolish slavery completely. Liberting good (muslim?) slaves alone does not necessarily imply this. and as I said, there's specific rules about aquiring new slaves, which I wouldn't expect to find in a books which supposedly aims to eliminate slavery.
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
"There are three people whose prayers are not accepted. And one of these three is a man who enslaves a free person (Rajulun iitabada muharraran)" (Sunan Abî Dawûd)

From this post by Ansar.
But it's still allowed to enslave prisoners of war and unbelievers.
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AhlaamBella
06-17-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Slaves were treated in a rather humane manner in Islam, I'm not denying that, Rosegold. But slavery is salvery nonetheless.
But the ayat states that a portion of wealth should be given to the slave. Doesn't that equal pay? and didn't we establish that to be paid you then become a servent? and not a slave? Also, each and every language is influenced by its culture. For example, a word in arabic, which would be translated to 'hour', simply meant a short period of time. So, the ayat uses the word 'slave', but that doesn't necassarily translate to what we would take 'slave' to mean.
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by RoseGold
But the ayat states that a portion of wealth should be given to the slave. Doesn't that equal pay? and didn't we establish that to be paid you then become a servent? and not a slave? Also, each and every language is influenced by its culture. For example, a word in arabic, which would be translated to 'hour', simply meant a short period of time. So, the ayat uses the word 'slave', but that doesn't necassarily translate to what we would take 'slave' to mean.
What the verse says is that masters should help their former slaves to emancipate into the society, which is a good thing. and a useful thing, considering a liberated slave had to pay his master to be set free. So, no, I don't think the help verse mentions equals pay nor changes the fact the the slave was a slave and not a servant.
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جوري
06-18-2008, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Osman: Slavery was abolished in the muslims world in the past century due to colonialism and pressures coming from the West. .
salvery abolished ascribable to pressure from the west? is this an oxymoron or what? we are talking the same west that asked a woman to take the back seat on the bus for a white man not 50 or so years ago? the same west that left us with such indelible images on our minds?


I am sorry.. but the west as I see it, hasn't come far from its medieval style of trial by ordeal.. pls read about that sometime.. I think holywood has painted a quixotic picture of folks who have been steeped for so long in the mire and dark ages, that they have started to believe in their own fairy tales...

cheers
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Nawal89
06-18-2008, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What the verse says is that masters should help their former slaves to emancipate into the society, which is a good thing. and a useful thing, considering a liberated slave had to pay his master to be set free. So, no, I don't think the help verse mentions equals pay nor changes the fact the the slave was a slave and not a servant.

You're right, Slavery is allowed in Islam, but slaves have to be treated well. It is also one of the greatest deeds to free a slave in Islam. Slaves should wear the same clothes their master wears and eat the same food their masters eat.

cummon guys. complicating things. Its clear that the slaves in the time of the prophet peace be upon him were slaves. Not servants. You dont buy servants. And Servants dont have to pay their masters for freedom.

Oh and back on topic. I dont believe in doing a little bit evil for a greater good in any case if it can be avoided. Its not good if something starts in a haram way.
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crayon
06-18-2008, 07:18 AM
Okay, so here's the scenario in the film I had watched, let me know what you guys think should have been done.

The story is set during the crusades. The king of jerusalem is peace loving, and on good terms with Salah AlDeen. Only problem is, he has a disease, and will die in a very short amount of time. The person who will inherit the throne is his sister, sybilla. She is married to an evil, war hungry, horrible man. And then there's this other guy, Balian, your typical movie hero, a knight, honorable, honest, etc. The king asks Balian to marry his sister, so that when he dies, Balian will be king, and not the current husband. But the husband must be "gotten rid of" before he can marry the sister. Even though he is a vile person, he is still technically innocent of any crime. So what happens is either this:
1-Balian refuses, and the evil man becomes king. He breaks the truce with Salah AlDin, goes to war, and has thousands of people killed, and eventually loses jerusalem.
2-Balian accepts, the evil man is executed (this is the little evil), jerusalem stays on good terms with Salah AlDin, they work something out, there is no war, and no one is killed.

What happens in the movie (and history, of course), is the first case. If you had been Balian, what would you have done?
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Al-Zaara
06-18-2008, 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by crayon
What happens in the movie (and history, of course), is the first case. If you had been Balian, what would you have done?
I would have refused.

edit: What he could have done, is have an fair match against the bad man, after the sister has asked for a divorce and is to choose one of them (because it would be an evil thing to do if you wanna steal someone's wife just like that). If he lost, then he lost, but he still would have tried and still not have committed an evil.
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Umar001
06-18-2008, 07:55 AM
I wouldn't say I'd do a little evil for alot of good, I would prefer to say I do the lesser evil than the greater evil, though through this I will, insha'Allah, plan to, bring about more good than doing the greater evil.
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crayon
06-18-2008, 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I wouldn't say I'd do a little evil for alot of good, I would prefer to say I do the lesser evil than the greater evil, though through this I will, insha'Allah, plan to, bring about more good than doing the greater evil.
Hmmm.. Yeah, that's a very interesting way of putting it, and it makes sense. Technically though, don't they mean the same thing?
Do you mean this in general, or for the specific scenario i explained?
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
salvery abolished ascribable to pressure from the west? is this an oxymoron or what? we are talking the same west that asked a woman to take the back seat on the bus for a white man not 50 or so years ago? the same west that left us with such indelible images on our minds?
Yes, we are talking the same west. Though I'm sure back then Europe was a much better place for non-whites than the US.
The fact is that without political pressure coming from Europe, at first mostly from Britain, most muslim countries would not have abolished slavery or would have done it significantly later.
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Umar001
06-18-2008, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Hmmm.. Yeah, that's a very interesting way of putting it, and it makes sense. Technically though, don't they mean the same thing?
Do you mean this in general, or for the specific scenario i explained?
Hmm I had written a reply but had problems, hmm, they don't in some ways, your statement is more general whereas mine is more specific I guess.

I dont know what specific scenario you explained. But I wouldn't do a little evil in order to perform an act which is not obligatory. I.e. I would not sell a haram sweet, inshaAllah, to spend as non obligatory charity.

But I would do something haram to do something halal, meaning, I would pick the lesser evil in some cases, for example, two bad things:

1.Touch a non mahram.
2.Let someone die.

If I am not mistaken in the Islamic field letting someone die is worse a greater evil, so I would do the lesser evil to prevent the greater evil. I would touch a sister to prevent her dying, i.e. push her out of the way of a bus, or drag her out of the sea etc.

But obviously if there is a way to avoid any evil at all then thats the best way, i.e. letting a sister rescue the sister etc.
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جوري
06-18-2008, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yes, we are talking the same west. Though I'm sure back then Europe was a much better place for non-whites than the US.
The fact is that without political pressure coming from Europe, at first mostly from Britain, most muslim countries would not have abolished slavery or would have done it significantly later.
That is more of a personal opinion than an historical fact, I am afraid...

peace
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Whatsthepoint
06-18-2008, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
That is more of a personal opinion than an historical fact, I am afraid...

peace
Of course it's not a historical fact, it's a theory, a very probable one though. Muslim countries were the last to abolish slavery. Before that the British and the rest of the world made tremendous effort to supress slavery and slave trade across the globe, they even signed a treaty about it with the gulf countries and there were countless other treaties and conventions. Now, I'm not saying muslim countries didn't do it on their own accord, as a sign of humanity or whatever (I doubt it though), however if it hadn't been for the west that abolished slavery a century before, they would have done it later or not have done it at all.
Reply

crayon
06-18-2008, 07:14 PM
Al Habeshi- ahhhhh yes, I completely understand now. yeah you're right, yours is more specific..

Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I dont know what specific scenario you explained.
Originally Posted by crayon
Okay, so here's the scenario in the film I had watched, let me know what you guys think should have been done.

The story is set during the crusades. The king of jerusalem is peace loving, and on good terms with Salah AlDeen. Only problem is, he has a disease, and will die in a very short amount of time. The person who will inherit the throne is his sister, sybilla. She is married to an evil, war hungry, horrible man. And then there's this other guy, Balian, your typical movie hero, a knight, honorable, honest, etc. The king asks Balian to marry his sister, so that when he dies, Balian will be king, and not the current husband. But the husband must be "gotten rid of" before he can marry the sister. Even though he is a vile person, he is still technically innocent of any crime. So what happens is either this:
1-Balian refuses, and the evil man becomes king. He breaks the truce with Salah AlDin, goes to war, and has thousands of people killed, and eventually loses jerusalem.
2-Balian accepts, the evil man is executed (this is the little evil), Balian becomes king, jerusalem stays on good terms with Salah AlDin, they work something out, there is no war, and no one is killed.

What happens in the movie (and history, of course), is the first case. If you had been Balian, what would you have done?
For me, this one is not as clear cut as others...
Reply

جوري
06-19-2008, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;961924]Of course it's not a historical fact, it's a theory, a very probable one though. QUOTE]

You'll forgive me if I don't subscribe to that theory, considering, I don't believe that slavery is totally abolished in the west.. it has just taken on a different form..

but I can agree in part that 'gulf countries' are down right execrable.. I wouldn't associate that with Islam though... even in the Quran they were described as hypocrites... I got very angry thinking of the oppression Muslims endure while the crud of humanity sits on billions, that they'd rather spend on the likes of Mariah carey and other commercial sex workers than Muslims digging in the garbage for food..

what an incredible and sad disparity!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You'll forgive me if I don't subscribe to that theory, considering, I don't believe that slavery is totally abolished in the west.. it has just taken on a different form..

but I can agree in part that 'gulf countries' are down right execrable.. I wouldn't associate that with Islam though... even in the Quran they were described as hypocrites... I got very angry thinking of the oppression Muslims endure while the crud of humanity sits on billions, that they'd rather spend on the likes of Mariah carey and other commercial sex workers than Muslims digging in the garbage for food..

what an incredible and sad disparity!
There's still plenty of actual slavery in the world, mostly in Africa and the Middle east. And there's sex slaves all over, even in the developed countries.
Elaborate, please. (the different form slavery has taken on in the west)
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There's still plenty of actual slavery in the world, mostly in Africa and the Middle east.
Um, where? I've lived in the middle east all but 5 years of my life and I've yet to even hear of a person owning a slave.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Um, where? I've lived in the middle east all but 5 years of my life and I've yet to even hear of a person owning a slave.
Perhaps it's because people don't brag about it..
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 01:29 PM
But if the quran never said slavery to be haram, in your opinion of course, why would they not talk about it? If islam says it is perfectly acceptable to have a slave in the present day, why is it taboo to discuss it?

Also, please provide some proof for your claims, thanks.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
But if the quran never said slavery to be haram, in your opinion of course, why would they not talk about it? If islam says it is perfectly acceptable to have a slave in the present day, why is it taboo to discuss it?

Also, please provide some proof for your claims, thanks.
Because it's illegal, I guess.
There's plenty of articles about it, I believe some even from respectable magazines, you can google them yourself. That's evidence, not proof though.
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 02:01 PM
"Because it's illegal, I guess."

No, because it is haram.

"There's plenty of articles about it, I believe some even from respectable magazines, you can google them yourself. That's evidence, not proof though"

I did google, I found one thing about the "middle east", wasthis. About camel jockeys in the UAE that are underage, bought from their rents, etc. The article ends with this message:
"UPDATE: In late 2004/early 2005, the United Arab Emirates officially endorsed a plan to replace children used for camel jockeying with robots designed specifically for the purpose."

I also found this on the same website:
Slavery in the United States
Slavery in France
Slavery in Romania

And that's not even looking at the rest of North America, South America, Central America, Asia, and Australia. There are categories for those too. In fact, all the categories have more countries involved with slavery than the middle east, which just has the UAE, on an issue that has been resolved.
Reply

Umar001
06-19-2008, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Al Habeshi- ahhhhh yes, I completely understand now. yeah you're right, yours is more specific..





For me, this one is not as clear cut as others...
I wouldn't have killed the guy for what might happen, I dont think I can kill someone before they do wrong since they might not do wrong, Allah knows best, see this is why I'm not a scholar, :) (yet insha'Allah)!

I dont know. But seriously why is it bothering you?

P.s. I know they have inhouse maids in places, like in Eritrea they do, my grandad has one.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
"Because it's illegal, I guess."

No, because it is haram.

"There's plenty of articles about it, I believe some even from respectable magazines, you can google them yourself. That's evidence, not proof though"

I did google, I found one thing about the "middle east", wasthis. About camel jockeys in the UAE that are underage, bought from their rents, etc. The article ends with this message:
"UPDATE: In late 2004/early 2005, the United Arab Emirates officially endorsed a plan to replace children used for camel jockeying with robots designed specifically for the purpose."

I also found this on the same website:
Slavery in the United States
Slavery in France
Slavery in Romania

And that's not even looking at the rest of North America, South America, Central America, Asia, and Australia. There are categories for those too. In fact, all the categories have more countries involved with slavery than the middle east, which just has the UAE, on an issue that has been resolved.
Slavery is not haraam.
Ok, it seems I was mistaken. I do remember reading about it several times. I'll try to find some articles about it in the near future.
Reply

AhlaamBella
06-19-2008, 02:18 PM
A slave in the time of the prophet SAW was a companion and a helper. Not our understanding of a slave today
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 02:33 PM
You're right, it is not haram. It is, however, unacceptable to go back to owning slaves after Islam abolished the practice of slavery. Here's what islamonline has to say about it:
When Allah created human beings, He created them to be free and to be vicegerents on the earth. Slavery is something that came from people who couldn’t understand the position of the human being and it was made, in the past, as a global phenomenon.
When Islam came, it tried to bring change to get the human being back to being free, as Allah has created us, by certain procedures. Those procedures of Islam went through without interference from the other nations or states who are non-Muslim states or nations. Maybe within the third century of Hijrah or the migration of the Prophet to Madinah, this phenomenon would have been over and disappeared. But as I mentioned, because it was a global phenomenon, that procedure which was established by Islam couldn’t go through and finish with this very bad phenomenon.
Now, al-hamdulillah all people have agreed to stop this phenomenon and stand up against it. With this, there is no way to go back to adopt this phenomenon again in any way, especially for Muslims, since they must protect the freedom of others and always be with their rights to be free servants of Allah only. We should remember when the Caliph `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said in a famous khutbah (speech or sermon) of his, “When did you make the people as slaves or servants of you while Allah, the Almighty, created them free!
This means that the Muslims from the very beginning advocated the freedom of all human beings and were against the oppression of free people by tyrants and dictator leaders.”
Islam has clearly and categorically forbidden the primitive practice of capturing a free man, to make him a slave or to sell him into slavery. On this point the clear and unequivocal words of [Muhammad] are as follows:
"There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah).
The words of this Tradition of the Prophet are also general, they have not been qualified or made applicable to a particular nation, race, country or followers of a particular religion.....After this the only form of slavery which was left in Islamic society was the prisoners of war, who were captured on the battlefield. These prisoners of war were retained by the Muslim Government until their government agreed to receive them back in exchange for Muslim soldiers captured by them
That was from wikipedia. So even today, unless the person was captured during battle, it is haram to own them.
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
I wouldn't have killed the guy for what might happen, I dont think I can kill someone before they do wrong since they might not do wrong, Allah knows best, see this is why I'm not a scholar, :) (yet insha'Allah)!

Someday inshAllah. :)

I dont know. But seriously why is it bothering you?

It's not really bothering me per-se, just that I've been thinking about it...

P.s. I know they have inhouse maids in places, like in Eritrea they do, my grandad has one.

Inhouse maids are a totally different story, they are not owned, they are employed... I know many people who have maids that stay with them. Although in some gulf countries they are treated horrible, even worse than slaves, astaghfirullah.. :(

eeeeee.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
You're right, it is not haram. It is, however, unacceptable to go back to owning slaves after Islam abolished the practice of slavery. Here's what islamonline has to say about it:
Islam did not abolish slavery, certain islamic states and empires did, some as recently as 20 years ago. and it's still practiced in some islamic parts of the world, not in the middle east though...
When Allah created human beings, He created them to be free and to be vicegerents on the earth. Slavery is something that came from people who couldn’t understand the position of the human being and it was made, in the past, as a global phenomenon.
When Islam came, it tried to bring change to get the human being back to being free, as Allah has created us, by certain procedures. Those procedures of Islam went through without interference from the other nations or states who are non-Muslim states or nations. Maybe within the third century of Hijrah or the migration of the Prophet to Madinah, this phenomenon would have been over and disappeared. But as I mentioned, because it was a global phenomenon, that procedure which was established by Islam couldn’t go through and finish with this very bad phenomenon.
Now, al-hamdulillah all people have agreed to stop this phenomenon and stand up against it. With this, there is no way to go back to adopt this phenomenon again in any way, especially for Muslims, since they must protect the freedom of others and always be with their rights to be free servants of Allah only. We should remember when the Caliph `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) said in a famous khutbah (speech or sermon) of his, “When did you make the people as slaves or servants of you while Allah, the Almighty, created them free!”
This means that the Muslims from the very beginning advocated the freedom of all human beings and were against the oppression of free people by tyrants and dictator leaders.”
Well, alchohol and pork consumption and several others non-islamic practices were also a global phenomenon yet muslims managed to root them out in their lands. I don't see how global slave trade prevented the muslim world from abolishing slavery within their own borders.
And I wonder how the author came up with such an exact number as to when slavery would have been abolished in the muslim world.
As I said, before. If Islams' goal was to root out slavery completely, there'd be no rules about enslaving POWs and infidels, liberating slaves would have to be obligatory rather than just encourged etc.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 02:54 PM
Slavery is widespread in Mauritania, Niger, Sudan and several other African countries.
Reply

جوري
06-19-2008, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
There's still plenty of actual slavery in the world, mostly in Africa and the Middle east. And there's sex slaves all over, even in the developed countries.
Elaborate, please. (the different form slavery has taken on in the west)
agreed! And I like the terms you used this time better.

Not 10 years ago, some black man was tied to the car of some white texan man and dragged to his death...looking at what happened to Katrina Victims and how it was handled as opposed to say had it happened to a more affluent community, tells me that there is vested interest in keeping some folks in a certain status quo..
I am not making excuses for folks who deliberately wish to stay 'enslaved' and in ghettos
but when you hand a job to someone named John over someone named lekwisha even though they have the same education/qualifications (program on 60mins) it pretty much tells slavery is indeed alive and well, albeit a bit more politically correct or put under a different canopy!


peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
agreed! And I like the terms you used this time better.

Not 10 years ago, some black man was tied to the car of some white texan man and dragged to his death...looking at what happened to Katrina Victims and how it was handled as opposed to say had it happened to a more affluent community, tells me that there is vested interest in keeping some folks in a certain status quo..
I am not making excuses for folks who deliberately wish to stay 'enslaved' and in ghettos
but when you hand a job to someone named John over someone named lekwisha even though they have the same education/qualifications (program on 60mins) it pretty much tells slavery is indeed alive and well, albeit a bit more politically correct or put under a different canopy!


peace
That's discrimination based on race, which is outlawed as well. the thing with laws is that you can change them but you can't change the mentality of the people.
Reply

جوري
06-19-2008, 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
As I said, before. If Islams' goal was to root out slavery completely, there'd be no rules about enslaving POWs and infidels, liberating slaves would have to be obligatory rather than just encourged etc.
لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ وَآتَى الْمَالَ عَلَى حُبِّهِ ذَوِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَى الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عَاهَدُواْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ فِي الْبَأْسَاء والضَّرَّاء وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ {177}
[Pickthal 2:177] It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.

That verse above is the stance of Islam!-- to which there is no argument!

keeping prisoners of war is one thing, treating them well is a different story..Every country has a right to keep POW for deals.. war is trickery and a plan!
There is no room for contrast here though, least if terms of being extinguished, as abu gharib and Guantanamo are indelible in all our minds.. to be frank you are not making a good case for the west =)


cheers
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ وَآتَى الْمَالَ عَلَى حُبِّهِ ذَوِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَى الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عَاهَدُواْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ فِي الْبَأْسَاء والضَّرَّاء وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ {177}
[Pickthal 2:177] It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.

That verse above is the stance of Islam!-- to which there is no argument!

keeping prisoners of war is one thing, treating them well is a different story..Every country has a right to keep POW for deals.. war is trickery and a plan!
There is no room for contrast here though, least if terms of being extinguished, as abu gharib and Guantanamo are indelible in all our minds.. to be frank you are not making a good case for the west =)


cheers
I'm not trying to make a case for the west, let alone the US, which I personally have a lot of issues with. Still, not even the US enslaves its prisoners of war.
On a side note, today's western (continental) Europe is a better example of what the west should look like.


What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Islam did not abolish slavery, certain islamic states and empires did, some as recently as 20 years ago. and it's still practiced in some islamic parts of the world, not in the middle east though...

Well, alchohol and pork consumption and several others non-islamic practices were also a global phenomenon yet muslims managed to root them out in their lands. I don't see how global slave trade prevented the muslim world from abolishing slavery within their own borders.
And I wonder how the author came up with such an exact number as to when slavery would have been abolished in the muslim world.
As I said, before. If Islams' goal was to root out slavery completely, there'd be no rules about enslaving POWs and infidels, liberating slaves would have to be obligatory rather than just encourged etc.
I should have phrased that better; the teachings of islam led to the eventual abolition of slavery (in the mideast/africa/muslim countries)
I know of several unislamic practices that are practiced in the islamic world, such as the drinking of alchohol, fornication, etc. That doesn't make them okay.

There's a difference between a dietary change, or any other slight change, and changing something that is in the framework of society. As to the date the author provided, I agree, there's no basis for it.

Freeing slaves is obligatory in many cases, actually. Off the top of my head, when someone breaks an oath they took, when one does not fast certain days in ramadan, not performing a ritual of hajj properly.

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Slavery is widespread in Mauritania, Niger, Sudan and several other African countries.
Your point being?

A side note- how on earth did this thread become about slaves anyway???
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?
The prophet :arabic5: said: "There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah).

It doesn't matter what kind of free man, whether he be muslim or not, it is haram to enslave him.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I should have phrased that better; the teachings of islam led to the eventual abolition of slavery (in the mideast/africa/muslim countries)
I know what you meant and I very much doubt it. Check some of my earlier posts and replies to Skye.
A side note- how on earth did this thread become about slaves anyway???
I posed a question why Islam allowes slavery, the answer I had received several times before is that the society would have collapesd had it been abolished over the night. So slavery is a small evil that brings greater good, that is an economically stable society/state.
Reply

جوري
06-19-2008, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint


What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?
POW are one thing and you are to treat them well....randomly enslaving people is just nonsensical!
either way I don't know enough about jurisprudence to give you the final word.. I'd recommend consulting with a scholar!

peace
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I know what you meant and I very much doubt it. Check some of my earlier posts and replies to Skye.

Let's just agree to disagree, okay? Lol

I posed a question why Islam allows slavery, the answer I had received several times before is that the society would have collapsed had it been abolished over the night. So slavery is a small evil that brings greater good, that is an economically stable society/state.

Yeah, I guess you could say that..
Are we done with the slavery talk now? I have an episode of "Dexter" calling my name....:statisfie
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:34 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
POW are one thing and you are to treat them well....randomly enslaving people is just nonsensical!
either way I don't know enough about jurisprudence to give you the final word.. I'd recommend consulting with a scholar!

peace
Well, this is what led me to believe infidels can be enslaved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_a...ery#Principles
Principles

In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — "The basic principle is liberty") for a person if his or her origins were unknown[3], though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[32] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[3] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]
Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Let's just agree to disagree, okay? Lol
It's not ok, but ok, let's!
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?
They didn't quote that from an islamic source, it's from "Shaun E. Marmon, ed. Slavery in the Islamic Middle East, Markus Wiener Publishers, Princeton (1999), page vii." It's not a hadith or verse from the quran.

Just read the line right after the bolded one:
"Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery."

(the opposite of confirm is negate, if im not mistaken)

Here's the link to submit a question to islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...FFatwaCounselE
Reply

Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
They didn't quote that from an islamic source, it's from "Shaun E. Marmon, ed. Slavery in the Islamic Middle East, Markus Wiener Publishers, Princeton (1999), page vii." It's not a hadith or verse from the quran.

Just read the line right after the bolded one:
"Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery."

(the opposite of confirm is negate, if im not mistaken)

Here's the link to submit a question to islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...FFatwaCounselE
Perhaps the source provides hadiths and verses. That's whay I'm asking for confirmation/negation.
The lines seem to contradict themselves..

"Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]"
This line is interesing. Why does it say "free muslim", if free men regardless of their relgiion could not be enslaved?

I am aware wikipedia is not the most reliable source..
Reply

crayon
06-19-2008, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
"Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]"
This line is interesing. Why does it say "free muslim", if free men regardless of their relgiion could not be enslaved?
Ahh okay, I see what you're saying... I don't have an answer, tbh, maybe you could add this question to the one you're going to ask the scholar (if you are, that is)
Reply

Uthman
06-19-2008, 05:03 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?
Maybe here. :)

Regards
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جوري
06-19-2008, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, this is what led me to believe infidels can be enslaved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_a...ery#Principles

Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?
As for asking a scholar, I'd go to either of these websites..http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S.../FatwaCounselE

or
http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/a...askscholar.htm
and would generally away from wiki... but I believe it gave you the answer anyway no?
Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery

peace
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shakylla
06-27-2008, 07:56 AM
You were watching Kingdom of Heaven, weren't you? I remember Eva Green saying that exact line to Orlando Bloom when his character refused to assume the role of King of Jerusalem.

To be honest, I don't think there is such a thing as "little" evil. An action, to me, is either evil or good. If I were ever stuck in a position where I have to perform evil in order to achieve something that will benefit someone else, then I shouldn't do it at all. Perhaps there are other better ways of achieving the same outcome.
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