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Uthman
06-17-2008, 06:53 PM
The brains of gay men and women look like those found in heterosexual people of the opposite sex, research suggests.

The Swedish study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences journal, compared the size of the brain's halves in 90 adults.

Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.

A UK scientist said this was evidence sexual orientation was set in the womb.

As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay
Queen Mary, University of London

Scientists have noticed for some time that homosexual people of both sexes have differences in certain cognitive abilities, suggesting there may be subtle differences in their brain structure.

This is the first time, however, that scientists have used brain scanners to try to look for the source of those differences.

A group of 90 healthy gay and heterosexual adults, men and women, were scanned by the Karolinska Institute scientists to measure the volume of both sides, or hemispheres, of their brain.

When these results were collected, it was found that lesbians and heterosexual men shared a particular "asymmetry" in their hemisphere size, while heterosexual women and gay men had no difference between the size of the different halves of their brain.

In other words, structurally, at least, the brains of gay men were more like heterosexual women, and gay women more like heterosexual men.

A further experiment found that in one particular area of the brain, the amygdala, there were other significant differences.

In heterosexual men and gay women, there were more nerve "connections" in the right side of the amygdala, compared with the left.

The reverse, with more neural connections in the left amygdala, was the case in homosexual men and heterosexual women.

The Karolinska team said that these differences could not be mainly explained by "learned" effects, but needed another mechanism to set them, either before or after birth.

'Fight, flight or mate'


Dr Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in cognitive biology at Queen Mary, University of London, said that he believed that these brain differences were laid down early in foetal development.

"As far as I'm concerned there is no argument any more - if you are gay, you are born gay," he said.

The amygdala, he said, was important because of its role in "orientating", or directing, the rest of the brain in response to an emotional stimulus - be it during the "fight or flight" response, or the presence of a potential mate.

"In other words, the brain network which determines what sexual orientation actually 'orients' towards is similar between gay men and straight women, and between gay women and straight men.

"This makes sense given that gay men have a sexual preference which is like that of women in general, that is, preferring men, and vice versa for lesbian women."
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IceQueen~
06-17-2008, 07:36 PM
But that doesn't prove that their brains were this way since they were first developing,- as the saying goes use it or lose it

What seems more likely is that gays because of the way they behave stimulate that part of their brain in a that way which resembles the wrong gender.

If they couldn't help being like that why would Allah punish the people of Lut (AH)?
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IceQueen~
06-17-2008, 07:47 PM
Actually a more accurate way of checking this out would be scanning a big enough number of babies brains and seeing if this pattern exists in the wrong gender's brain.

If such did exist then they might have something to base it on, unless the said babies were from weird parents too...

But one thing's for sure no one alive today is descended from prophet Lut's people cos all the evil ones were destroyed
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 07:52 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by IceQueen~
But that doesn't prove that their brains were this way since they were first developing,- as the saying goes use it or lose it

What seems more likely is that gays because of the way they behave stimulate that part of their brain in a that way which resembles the wrong gender.
Good points!

Originally Posted by IceQueen~
If they couldn't help being like that why would Allah punish the people of Lut (AH)?
It is acts of homosexuality that are prohibited in Islam, Sister. The people of Lut committed homosexual acts, which is why Allah punished them.
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
Actually a more accurate way of checking this out would be scanning a big enough number of babies brains and seeing if this pattern exists in the wrong gender's brain.

f such did exist then they might have something to base it on, unless the said babies were from weird parents too...
I agree with you sister, but there are all sorts of ethical issues associated with that.

:w:
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Whatsthepoint
06-17-2008, 07:56 PM
What is the islamic stance on this? Do you believe people decide to have homosexual urges?
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Uthman
06-17-2008, 10:52 PM
Greetings,

Thank you for your post. :)
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What is the islamic stance on this?
Homosexual acts are forbidden.
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Do you believe people decide to have homosexual urges?
My personal belief is that people cannot control whether they have homosexual urges.

Regards
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Mikayeel
06-17-2008, 10:57 PM
:sl:

I agree with brother osman, that people cannot control whether they have homosexual urges or not, however what matters is how they act upon these feelings.

Yes i would love too see that, a scientist being able to identify a baby as being a gay candidate for the future.
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The_Prince
06-18-2008, 02:39 AM
so the debate is over just because of 90 adults? get real doctor, what an idiot i must say.

not even 900. no, 90!
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جوري
06-18-2008, 04:12 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
so the debate is over just because of 90 adults? get real doctor, what an idiot i must say.

not even 900. no, 90!
I'll have to agree with that, though I didn't wish to partake in this thread.. I want to see the numbers that come with the research.. you know P values and statistical analysis.. ultimately in the end that is what matters...

This is the same field of medicine that not 30 years ago deemed homosexuality an act of sexual deviance in the DSM.. and when the whole gay gene thing didn't pan out well.. try some other ridiculous approach and push it out to be en vogue with what is politically correct.. who is going to question the psychiatric community of sweden and whatever pool of population they have tested?

Most folks aren't equipped to critique research.. I used to run to my preceptors with whatever the latest read in esteemed medical journal, only to be lectured actually chewed out for not being more critical of content...

that is how folks get away with pushing out products like Vytorin & Zetia as a recent example and then later have them taken off the market when the none sponsoring company runs a randomized double blind study to find that not only are they therapeutically insignificant but can have considerable side effect...

Sob7an Allah... let's be a bit more critical of what we read...
Homosexuality is a psychological condition, whether or not they feel an inclination isn't the issue.. pederasts also feel an inclination toward fresh young pubertal altar boys, while one makes folks cringe and is punishable by law, the other for some reason is celebrated and applauded.. even though they are essentially one in the same!

:w:
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root
06-19-2008, 09:14 AM
I found this research very interesting, confirming what science has suspected for a long time. In particular we already know that the amygdala is largely responsible for sexual orientation, so to see it also implicated here was good news that steady progress is being made.

Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Homosexuality is a psychological condition, whether or not they feel an inclination isn't the issue.. pederasts also feel an inclination toward fresh young pubertal altar boys, while one makes folks cringe and is punishable by law, the other for some reason is celebrated and applauded.. even though they are essentially one in the same!
I agree and disagree with your point, Homosexuality is with two consenting adults, "fresh young pubertal alter boys" are not at an age of consent.

This topic reminds me of a well documented case in the US, where an otherwise healthy adult family male with a "normal" sexual desire started to become sexually aroused by peadophilia, progressively it became worse and he started to sexually molest his own children.

Being caught by the state he was promptly jailed where after several months of persistant complaining of progrssively worseining headaches he recieved a brain scan showing a brain tumour applying considerable pressure to the amygdala.

After his brain operation to remove the tumour his sexual desire returned to "normal" losing all sexual arousal for peadophilia. 9 months later, he reported that his sexual desire was "changing" again back to peadophilia and he was immediately brain scanned which revealed that the tumour had returned and was again applying pressure on the amgdala. The tumour was removed once more and his sexual desire returned to "normal" and has remained normal to this day.

Not only does this case give us an valuable insight into the brain mechanics of sexual orientation but strikes at the very notion of free will.

  1. Was this man responsible for his actions.
  2. Did this man have free will
  3. Should this man be treated & punished or treated and released


Either way, both articles provide us with enough caution that sexual desire is not as black and white as we would like to believe.
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Malaikah
06-19-2008, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by root
Not only does this case give us an valuable insight into the brain mechanics of sexual orientation but strikes at the very notion of free will.

  1. Was this man responsible for his actions.
  2. Did this man have free will
  3. Should this man be treated & punished or treated and released
What?! Who cares if the desire was not his control! That is not a good enough reason for him to start abusing his children. What ever happened to self control?

How is what you are saying any different to a man being attracted by a women and then raping her as a result? Are you going to let him go because he couldn't help that he found the woman attractive?
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 09:58 AM
:sl:
Erm, how does identifying a gay brain difference equate to you're born gay (ignoring the fact that as humans, it's actually genetically impossible to be BORN GAY).

At most this study merely identifies the signals that are highlighted when the homosexual is aroused. Because of the homosexuality, it highlights abc signals - heteros would have xyz signals highlighted. If you are getting me.
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Malaikah
06-19-2008, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Erm, how does identifying a gay brain difference equate to you're born gay (ignoring the fact that as humans, it's actually genetically impossible to be BORN GAY).
How come?
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root
06-19-2008, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
What?! Who cares if the desire was not his control! That is not a good enough reason for him to start abusing his children. What ever happened to self control?
You mean like obese people, alcoholics, gambling addictions, drug addicts. What ever happened to self control!

Though remember, removal of the tumour removed the need for self control. What is self control anyway...........

Originally Posted by Malaikah
How is what you are saying any different to a man being attracted by a women and then raping her as a result? Are you going to let him go because he couldn't help that he found the woman attractive?
I am talking sexual desire and not sexual violence, so It's not relavent to my point.
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root
06-19-2008, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Erm, how does identifying a gay brain difference equate to you're born gay (ignoring the fact that as humans, it's actually genetically impossible to be BORN GAY).
Without actually hitting the reverse gear and defending the "definition" of "Gay". Can you back that statement up with just 1 single peer reviewed paper????? many thanks.
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by root
Without actually hitting the reverse gear and defending the "definition" of "Gay". Can you back that statement up with just 1 single peer reviewed paper????? many thanks.
It's common sense and a little bit of biology. Humans cannot procreate if they are committing homosexuality. Therefore, you cannot be born gay (since it'd have to come from your genetic makeup - since both of your parents would have to be heterosexual for you to have been born in the first place, there is zero possibility of you obtaining a gay gene from them - even if your genetics were to skip a generation, homosexuality PREVENTS passing on the gene in the first place) Hence you cannot be born gay.
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Fishman
06-19-2008, 10:14 AM
Originally Posted by root
Without actually hitting the reverse gear and defending the "definition" of "Gay". Can you back that statement up with just 1 single peer reviewed paper????? many thanks.
:sl:
I think he was trying to say that since gay people can't normally have children it would be impossible for children to inherit gayness from their parents.
:w:
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Malaikah
06-19-2008, 10:25 AM
Unless gayness is recessive.:rollseyes Or maybe it was new mutation?

Originally Posted by root
I am talking sexual desire and not sexual violence, so It's not relavent to my point.
:skeleton: Are you serious? Violence or not, he still abused the children!
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Unless gayness is recessive.:rollseyes Or maybe it was new mutation?
Indeed. It's also worth pointing out that many gay people do have children due to social pressure.
I don't think homosexuality is inheritable though, it's probably a mutation of some sort.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Homosexuality is with two consenting adults
^ this is one of the most self-centered arguments ever.

People use "consenting" to make everything ok. They dont even look at what it does to society and people as a whole, how it breed's chaos among the norm.

the fornication of "two consenting adults" has already caused humanity their loss of shame and dignity, and now we're bringing into it the homosexual acts of "two consenting adults"!? just how much further will we drop? the acts of "two consenting under 16's? because with this society ANYTHING seems possible !


As for the original post, before reading anything further icequeen's same question popped into my head,

"let them predict the homosexuality of babies and then say "there is no longer anything to debate about!""!


Peace




Thank you brother Osman, that was an interesting read :)
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root
06-19-2008, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
It's common sense and a little bit of biology.
As predicted. Your stated fact is nothing of the sort. It's simply an interpretation of your OWN opinion.

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Humans cannot procreate if they are committing homosexuality..
Agreed. This though does not mean homosexuals cannot procreate.

Therefore, you cannot be born gay (since it'd have to come from your genetic makeup - since both of your parents would have to be heterosexual for you to have been born in the first place,
I don't think individuals with a gay parent would agree with you. And since for individual basis reasons such people exist, your premis is just wrong.

there is zero possibility of you obtaining a gay gene from them - even if your genetics were to skip a generation, homosexuality PREVENTS passing on the gene in the first place) Hence you cannot be born gay.
And yet homosexuality is very common in humans and across the worlds species. Your premis is deeply flawed.

Malaikah - Are you serious? Violence or not, he still abused the children!
Your point referenced physical attraction to a women and rape, hence it was not relavent to this case.

IbnAbdulHakim the fornication of "two consenting adults" has already caused humanity their loss of shame and dignity, and now we're bringing into it the homosexual acts of "two consenting adults"!? just how much further will we drop? the acts of "two consenting under 16's? because with this society ANYTHING seems possible !
Homophobic ranting is all I see in your post. Perhaps you prefer a society that throws them from the top of the highest cliff, that's your choice.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-19-2008, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by root

Homophobic ranting is all I see in your post.
Then perhaps you should open your mind and look deeper because ranting isnt even a part of my post, i intended to make a clear point and i can only hope i have done so


Perhaps you prefer a society that throws them from the top of the highest cliff, that's your choice.
please dont quote me next time unless you have something constructive to say

you have called my concern for society and its downfall a "homophobic rant", i hope next time you will have the manners to at least correct me and help improve any flaws i may have in what i have, in your words, "ranted" about.
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 01:05 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by root
I don't think individuals with a gay parent would agree with you.
Gay parents usually turn gay AFTER the child is born. Only other occasion I could think that supports any counter to my statement is that of adoption - but that's not a genetic link so doesn't really count.

And since for individual basis reasons such people exist, your premis is just wrong.
Homosexuality is in most cases usually: learnt (through environment), developed over time (i.e from attraction to intercourse) or based on conformity to social norms (sometimes a mixture of the three). The initial attraction a human has (i.e is born with) for either sex does not define them as hetero or homo. This study is essentially saying that yes it does define you as homo. Which would mean lack of choice in your own sexuality, which would therefore lead us to the existence of fate - something athiests like to deny!


And yet homosexuality is very common in humans and across the worlds species. Your premis is deeply flawed.
As I said; it cannot be genetically inherited. Murder is also as common in humans but we all know that murder is not genetically inherited. Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 01:09 PM
This is news I guess.
Several hundred gay couples tie knot in California

18 hours ago

LOS ANGELES (AFP) — Several hundred gay and lesbian couples were married in California on the first full day of legalized same-sex weddings, a tally of official figures and local media reports showed Wednesday.

In Los Angeles County, where same-sex couples scrambled to tie the knot on Tuesday, a total of 648 marriage certificates were registered. The average daily number of marriages in June is 194, registrar Dean Logan said.

In Orange and San Diego Counties, which account for around three million people, around 300 marriage certificates were granted to homosexual couples, according to local press reports.

Meanwhile in San Francisco, 152 marriage licenses were granted to same-sex couples, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.

Around 200,000 people are married each year across California, the most populous US state with 37 million inhabitants.

In a landmark decision last month, the California Supreme Court overturned a ban on same-sex marriage, making California only the second US state after Massachusetts to allow gays and lesbians to wed.

Around 51,000 of the 102,000 same-sex couples living in California are expected to marry over the next three years, according to a recent University of California Los Angeles study.

A further 67,500 couples from outside the state are expected to wed in California during the same period.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 01:12 PM
You have to ask yourselves (those that are against it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accepted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity from people and the self loathing felt by them of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before you target those that are different, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You have to ask yourselves (those that are agaisnt it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accpeted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity frompeople and the self loathing of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before toy target those that are diffrent, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!
The action is the sin, not the thought process. To commit the act of sodomy, requires intent. To think oneself is homosexual, this is not a sin (it's a thought and thoughts arent punished in Islam) - only actions can be used as grounds for any sort of punishment.

I believe theres is a hadith regarding this: if a person thinks of doing a good deed he will be reward 1 good deed. If he acts upon that deed, he will receive 10. If he thinks of doing a bad deed, he will receive no punishment. If he acts on that, he will receive 1 bad deed.

So clearly, its actually weighted in favour of thinking good things!
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-19-2008, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You have to ask yourselves (those that are agaisnt it and use abuse towards people that are that way inclined) Do you really THINK a person would choose to be gay/bi? although it's accpeted today, do you think it's a desired choice to live this way? It's not. the ridicule, the animosity frompeople and the self loathing of why he/she is like this. So many people take the suicide route, why? if it's that desirable, why would they do this? think before toy target those that are diffrent, Allah creates EVERYTHING. So in a sense you'd be going against His decision!
Bro if a man can be clean but after, by his very own free-will, he rolls in mud can become dirty,
If a man can be an innocent pure baby and then, by his own free-will, becomes a homicidal maniac,
then whats to stop us from suggesting that just as the boy who didnt resist the urge to roll in mud, or the homicidal maniac who cant resist killing, that these homosexuals didnt reject or resist former inclinations and desires which ultimately lead to this mentality of "this is who i am, i can no longer help it".

All fires start small and then rage, the fire of homosexuality might have been extinguished at an early stage, they have transgressed themselves, God didnt MAKE them like that as you seen to think.

In islaam we have a belief that the more you sin the more black your heart becomes, until it covers your whole heart and you can no longer "help it". This doesnt just go for homosexuality but many many sins...

they havent proved we're born this way, they've only found a pattern between 90 adults.




Peace
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Malaikah
06-19-2008, 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.
Are you trying to say that it can't be inherited because it is detrimental? I'm not sure how that logic works since it is well known that disease is inherited and disease is also detrimental to mankind...
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root
06-19-2008, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

Gay parents usually turn gay AFTER the child is born. Only other occasion I could think that supports any counter to my statement is that of adoption - but that's not a genetic link so doesn't really count..
"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.

Homosexuality is in most cases usually: learnt (through environment), developed over time (i.e from attraction to intercourse) or based on conformity to social norms (sometimes a mixture of the three). The initial attraction a human has (i.e is born with) for either sex does not define them as hetero or homo. This study is essentially saying that yes it does define you as homo. Which would mean lack of choice in your own sexuality, which would therefore lead us to the existence of fate - something athiests like to deny!
I agree with you here, either way we simply cannot state that being "Gay" is a learned trait or as the article implies and you agree given to you a high probility of homosexuality.

I disagree with atheist's and fate, we don't deny it at this level. I have a gene that predisposes me to a high colestoral level for the future. It's not fate parsae, but it will explain where my high blood pressure arised when it does and allows me to take better care of myself before it happens


Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:As I said; it cannot be genetically inherited. Murder is also as common in humans but we all know that murder is not genetically inherited. Homosexuality (something which prevents humanity from surviving ergo a detriment to mankinds existence) cannot be passed on genetically.
And you keep saying it, perhaps if you say it enough times some people will believe you. Despite your lack of scientific evidence that simply says you cannot make that claim
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
All fires start small and then rage, the fire of homosexuality might have been extinguished at an early stage, they have transgressed themselves, God didnt MAKE them like that as you seen to think.




Peace
My Religion tells me God did make them this way, and so shall I beleive it. Nobody here can tell me it's not predestined. Everything is done according to Gods will, those that claim this to be true, then contradict themselves, well you need to re-asses what exactly do you follow within your religion!
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-19-2008, 01:43 PM
^you know a while ago i wondered if God could create them with such urges as he creates a blind man as a test. We get all sorts of disabled births, but i'll leave this upto wiser people.

Whatever the case is, i believe it to be a forbidden act, one which should be struggled against :)
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by root
"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.


Majority of cases this is true. Some are so against being homosexual, that they would pretend that they are hetro, indulge in marriage children, but the urges are too strong to ignore hence them comng out after.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^you know a while ago i wondered if God could create them with such urges as he creates a blind man as a test. We get all sorts of disabled births, but i'll leave this upto wiser people.

Whatever the case is, i believe it to be a forbidden act, one which should be struggled against :)
That's a personal opinion and what Islam teaches. I'm told tolerance is the way, and God alone can judge at the end, not mere humans who act high and mighty as we all do. :)

''Kaho Nanak Sab Kuch Tumare Hath Main (Sayeth Oh Nanak, Everything Is in His Hands (Gods)''
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root
06-19-2008, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Majority of cases this is true. Some are so against being homosexual, that they would pretend that they are hetro, indulge in marriage children, but the urges are too strong to ignore hence them comng out after.
How do you know?
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by root
How do you know?
It's common knowledge isn't it. Barrymore? Elton John? to name a few. Both married, then divorced as they came to terms with their homosexuality. Some asians are the same, they marry as it's a taboo subject within the Asian culture. I also have a gay/bi friends who are/were this way. It don't bother me, it's the person who matters not the sexuality which is trivial.
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by root
"Usually" "Possibly" "Perhaps" "Maybe"

How do you know they usually "turn" gay AFTER. Who is to say they were already gay but scared of homophobic people and homophobic religion(s). If your going to stake a claim as ridiculous as what you have done, bring forth the evidence or stop expecting us to accept your opinion as a given fact.
Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay.

I disagree with atheist's and fate, we don't deny it at this level. I have a gene that predisposes me to a high colestoral level for the future. It's not fate parsae, but it will explain where my high blood pressure arised when it does and allows me to take better care of myself before it happens
Could you say the same for one's sexuality (at the very most, genes can aid in predisposition - this I readily accept)?


And you keep saying it, perhaps if you say it enough times some people will believe you. Despite your lack of scientific evidence that simply says you cannot make that claim
Why do I need to scientifically back up a biologically and psychologically proven statement? If homosexuality could be passed on, we'd have no need for a member of the opposite sex. It's clearly something that prevents passing the genes on and so you cannot pass it on unless you are heterosexual which would mean you aren't homo. Unless you committed sodomy then had intercourse with a member of opposite sex and therefore passed on your genes. In which case, you'd require a dna sample and a brain scan before and after the act of sodomy and intercourse (to ascertain whether or not that person could be categorised, on a genetic level atleast, as homosexual or heterosexual). As of yet, I've heard of no such tests being done so as far as I am concerned, you cannot be born gay.

Although, this premise relies on my definition of homosexuality as someone who has committed sodomy (since I do not believe you can be called a homosexual based solely on your thoughts and have yet to see or hear of any evidence that suggests one can be).

This particular research study cannot be used to prove the existence of a being born gay.
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root
06-19-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
It's common knowledge isn't it. Barrymore? Elton John? to name a few. Both married, then divorced as they came to terms with their homosexuality. Some asians are the same, they marry as it's a taboo subject within the Asian culture. I also have a gay/bi friends who are/were this way. It don't bother me, it's the person who matters not the sexuality which is trivial.
It's common knowledge that nails & hair continue growth for a while after death, that does not mean it's true.

We have to back up what we say, not simply pass it off as "common knowledge". Perhaps the west's greater acceptence of it now means what your claiming is wrong. Perhaps not. Either way we need to show what we say is backed up!
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Whatsthepoint
06-19-2008, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay.
So you're saying sexual orientiation cannot be determined until one's had sex?
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root
06-19-2008, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Clearly then we have to define homosexuality. To me, unless you've committed sodomy, you're not gay. Could you say the same for one's sexuality (at the very most, genes can aid in predisposition - this I readily accept)?.

Can I refer you to the beginning of our debate:

Without actually hitting the reverse gear and defending the "definition" of "Gay". Can you back that statement up with just 1 single peer reviewed paper????? many thanks.
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 02:36 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by whatsthepoint
So you're saying sexual orientiation cannot be determined until one's had sex?
No, I'm saying I define a homosexual as one who has commited the act of sodomy. Sexual orientation is determined by a number of things (namely proximity, familiarity and so on and so forth)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/325979.stm - indicates there is no gay gene.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html A very interesting article on the alleged gay gene.

http://www.geneticfutures.com/astron...nfo/sheet1.asp Thoughts on the gay gene by an alleged homosexual. Also raises a question about female homosexuality

All 3 of those links indicate there is no gay gene.

Edit:
refutation on being born gay
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root
06-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:


No, I'm saying I define a homosexual as one who has commited the act of sodomy. Sexual orientation is determined by a number of things (namely proximity, familiarity and so on and so forth)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/325979.stm - indicates there is no gay gene.

http://www.narth.com/docs/istheregene.html A very interesting article on the alleged gay gene.

http://www.geneticfutures.com/astron...nfo/sheet1.asp Thoughts on the gay gene by an alleged homosexual. Also raises a question about female homosexuality

All 3 of those links indicate there is no gay gene.

Edit:
refutation on being born gay
The "gay Gene" is a misleader and I suspect you know this too. Additionally, your sources are dated no earlier than 1999. Nearly 10 years ago, Genetics has come along way since then. Science does not take the position of a single gay gene, rarther a multiple of factors including genes.

Your statement that it is genetically impossible to pas gay genes is flawed
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Azy
06-19-2008, 02:58 PM
aamirsaab, isn't your argument a bit like saying no child could be born infertile because it *must* be passed on from the parents?
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by root
...
Your statement that it is genetically impossible to pas gay genes is flawed
I've done some research on this matter - though nothing recent. It seems that the X chromosme from the mother apparently leads to homosexuality (though this is balanced by the Y chromosome from the father which leads to heterosexuality!) In which case, given that humans by default have an amount of attraction from birth (neccessary for us to survive as a species, else we wouldn't trust our own gender nor would we have any aspirition to adopt their characteristics aka role models), you are not born with a definitive sexuality. You're given equal amonts of homo and hetero predisposition. Your upbringing/environment will ulimately sway you to 4 possible outcomes; hetero, homo, asexual and bi.

So technically speaking, we're both right.
:D

edit:
Originally Posted by Azy
aamirsaab, isn't your argument a bit like saying no child could be born infertile because it *must* be passed on from the parents?
Sort of except I would place homosexuality as something one has a control over (again, this uses the definition of someone committing sodomy to be counted as a homosexual) whereas infertility and other diseases are something one does not have a choice with.
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Azy
06-19-2008, 03:25 PM
OK, I see, but I think using the term homosexual causes a little confusion, since it's apparent that noone is born a practicing homosexual and the term is generally used to denote sexual preference as much as sexual acts.
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aamirsaab
06-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
OK, I see, but I think using the term homosexual causes a little confusion, since it's apparent that noone is born a practicing homosexual and the term is generally used to denote sexual preference as much as sexual acts.
Well, I take the definition in accordance to my religious teachings. So maybe I'm biased :p.
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جوري
06-19-2008, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Homosexuality is a psychological condition, whether or not they feel an inclination isn't the issue.. pederasts also feel an inclination toward fresh young pubertal altar boys, while one makes folks cringe and is punishable by law, the other for some reason is celebrated and applauded.. even though they are essentially one in the same!
Originally Posted by root
I found this research very interesting, confirming what science has suspected for a long time. In particular we already know that the amygdala is largely responsible for sexual orientation, so to see it also implicated here was good news that steady progress is being made.



I agree and disagree with your point, Homosexuality is with two consenting adults, "fresh young pubertal alter boys" are not at an age of consent.

This topic reminds me of a well documented case in the US, where an otherwise healthy adult family male with a "normal" sexual desire started to become sexually aroused by peadophilia, progressively it became worse and he started to sexually molest his own children.

Being caught by the state he was promptly jailed where after several months of persistant complaining of progrssively worseining headaches he recieved a brain scan showing a brain tumour applying considerable pressure to the amygdala.

After his brain operation to remove the tumour his sexual desire returned to "normal" losing all sexual arousal for peadophilia. 9 months later, he reported that his sexual desire was "changing" again back to peadophilia and he was immediately brain scanned which revealed that the tumour had returned and was again applying pressure on the amgdala. The tumour was removed once more and his sexual desire returned to "normal" and has remained normal to this day.

Not only does this case give us an valuable insight into the brain mechanics of sexual orientation but strikes at the very notion of free will.

  1. Was this man responsible for his actions.
  2. Did this man have free will
  3. Should this man be treated & punished or treated and released


Either way, both articles provide us with enough caution that sexual desire is not as black and white as we would like to believe.

Are you saying that 13 year olds don't consent to sex?

as for medical conditions that cause hyper sexual behavior homosexual or otherwise (Klüver-Bucy syndrome) as an example typically understood as a genuine pathology that causes behavioral changes.. as opposed to simply subjective feelings of erotica to the same sex

You can't define pain or a headache, the same way you define Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia.. one you are typically relying on the individual bias which is founded entirely within the mind, and the other, there are pathological findings ascertained on a slide, or a chemistry panel etc!

I don't believe, we'll find an accurate way to 'measure' homosexuality anymore than we'll find an accurate way to measure pain.. we'll still have to rely on the subject's view....

cheers
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by root

We have to back up what we say, not simply pass it off as "common knowledge". Perhaps the west's greater acceptence of it now means what your claiming is wrong. Perhaps not. Either way we need to show what we say is backed up!
What? have you even understood what i'm on about? Seems you're lost. On one hand you supporting it (as i am) on the other hand with my posts you're nit-picking! Now which is it huh?? :raging:
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Woodrow
06-19-2008, 09:36 PM
Just speaking off the top of my head.

I do agree that increased right brain activity and increased amygdala activity would indicate increased libido. But, that does not necessarily mean the libido would be specificaly oriented.

Poison ivy will result in increased histamine reaction and severe itching, but it will not determine the choice a person makes in scratching the itch.

Increased amygdala function will result in stronger desires, the question is what determines the choice in satisfying or surpressing the desires.
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glo
06-19-2008, 10:02 PM
With all due respect, but can we compare sexual desire to scratching an itch??

Sexual desire is strongly ingrained into our human instinct.
I imagine that it must be very difficult to suppress it without suffering psychologically.

Much as I understand the homosexual debate, it seems all to easy for us heterosexual people to glibbly pass judgement on those who are born with homosexual desires ...
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Mikayeel
06-19-2008, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by glo
With all due respect, but can we compare sexual desire to scratching an itch??

Sexual desire is strongly ingrained into our human instinct.
I imagine that it must be very difficult to suppress it without suffering psychologically.

Much as I understand the homosexual debate, it seems all to easy for us heterosexual people to glibbly pass judgement on those who are born with homosexual desires ...
Greetings and peace be unto u glo


Its a mere comparison, however on a totally different scales.

I'd be more careful when saying 'born with homosexual desires'

A child is not born with any sexual desires let alone homosexual ones.
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جوري
06-19-2008, 10:55 PM
sexual desires 'ingrained'.. interesting indeed..
say one agrees to that vague idea, and places some confidence in it.. what would happen, if we all acted on our ingrained urges? does one have to act on every sexual desire?
hetrosexuals have desires, I think as much as any deviant group? does a man jump a woman in public simply because he has strong urges? that would = to rape
does a necromaniac go robbing fresh graves simply because he can't help his attraction to the newly dead? that would = a crime
Should a pederast go solicit a consenting minor for sodomy.. will that too is punishable by law..

I don't see how anyone of sound mind and body can't control their urges? homos, heteros or otherwise!

enough excuses already!
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AvarAllahNoor
06-19-2008, 11:27 PM
OK, not long ago there was news in the paper that penguins were having same gender relations, as well as other animals, what do thy know about what's a sin and not? Explain that to me please.
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جوري
06-19-2008, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
OK, not long ago there was news in the paper that penguins were having same gender relations, as well as other animals, what do thy know about what's a sin and not? Explain that to me please.
Maybe being a Short-legged flightless bird has something to do with it-- they also couplate without marriage or contracts.. take a dump or eat where they need!

cheers
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AntiKarateKid
06-20-2008, 12:11 AM
Maybe I'm lost but I dont see what a debate about this inborn gayness or whatever has to do with Islam. People are born with increased tendencies to be violent but it is their choice whether or not to be in fact violent. The same example would extend to homosexuality. Allah knows what tests he gives which people and why.


Just because some animals have homo tendencies does not mean anything. Some animals eat their young, others have sex all the time, the list goes on. I believe that the earth has many signs for us even in the animals and it is our job to discern what these signs mean. Some people beat their children but a mother elephant which is an animal would never do that. Shows how animals could have better relations with children than some people, so we look at that and learn. Some monkeys have sex all the time like I said, and people who have sex all the time with many partners are at the level of animals there. I guess there are signs everywhere in different ways.
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AntiKarateKid
06-20-2008, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
That's a personal opinion and what Islam teaches. I'm told tolerance is the way, and God alone can judge at the end, not mere humans who act high and mighty as we all do. :)

''Kaho Nanak Sab Kuch Tumare Hath Main (Sayeth Oh Nanak, Everything Is in His Hands (Gods)''
Honestly your tolerance argument is ridiculous. Whenever religion A forbids something that religion B allows, religion A claims it's more "tolerant". That is ridiculous and frankly irritating. I have heard that some Sikhs belive that it is forbidden to shave their armpit, bear, etc hair. Islam allows say one to shave their armpits. Are we being more "tolerant" or the poor people in the desert who don't have to walk around with turbins ( I see alot of Sikhs wearing them) and alot of hair that keeps them at unbearable temperatures? Perhaps this is a poor example, but the point still stands. I could make many counter "tolerance" claims against you. Give that argument up please, it really makes you look foolish. Laws on sexxual behaviors are there not because we made them, they are there from Allah.


By the way, skimming your posts about predestination, I can see that you are confused about it. We are not contradicting ourselves when we say Allah created a human with more sexual tendencies then asks him to struggle against them. Read up on predestination please.
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SixTen
06-20-2008, 01:18 AM
In the religious context - the life is a test.

People may ask, why would God make homosexuality forbidden and then give them desires for it? That surely is contradictive of Islam.

For this reason, alot of people are very rushing in judging such things.

Personally, I think their is alot of evidence that peoples sexuality is somewhat out of control. If something has good evidence, we should try find a logical explanation if this either contradicts or is perfectly fine with religion.

Fornication, is a desire many people have (which they must abstain from). Stealing, when you are in need, is a desire you may have also. Your desire to sin exists all the time - in different ways due to circumstances.

God did not, in the religious sense, create you without desire of sin. Hence, it is perfectly practical, logically, God has made some born with homosexual desires - as a test - as he could have made a man with a very bad temper - or one who has been raised in a highly atheistic society - etc etc. All of those, would seem to point people towards sinfulness. However, the life is ofcourse a test - It is to abstain from desire for God alone - Just having a desire will not send you to hell.

I think this is the best way to go about it, seeing as, evidence does seem to suggest the former query - as well as it making sense.

This is not the same as having a pure fitrah (morality). Someone may see something as wrong yet have the desire for it - or later have their morality skewed by society and so fourth. So, this view does not contradict that you are born with a perfect fitrah.

Having desire for something does not mean you have no sense of morale.
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جوري
06-20-2008, 01:23 AM
^^ agree with that..

On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :

"That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."


:w:
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Malaikah
06-20-2008, 05:31 AM
:sl:

From a different perspective, if the issue is a physical one with the brain, doesn't that show that homosexuality is not normal but is like a 'disease' of sorts? Is it, perhaps, something we can cure?

I wonder if this means that homosexuals would like to opt for treatment (if that ever becomes possible)
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SixTen
06-20-2008, 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

From a different perspective, if the issue is a physical one with the brain, doesn't that show that homosexuality is not normal but is like a 'disease' of sorts? Is it, perhaps, something we can cure?

I wonder if this means that homosexuals would like to opt for treatment (if that ever becomes possible)
Alot of characteristics create physical differences, we can't classify them as a disease.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2008, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Maybe being a Short-legged flightless bird has something to do with it-- they also couplate without marriage or contracts.. take a dump or eat where they need!

cheers
Erm, stop being petty! - Other animals have been doing this too, not just birds! - It's not a diesese, or unless you're stating these animals are infected too. It proves, it's natural (God's command) Plus only a minority are this way. Your agument holds no weight other than you lot follow what's been written in the Quran.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2008, 11:47 AM
Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Honestly your tolerance argument is ridiculous. Whenever religion A forbids something that religion B allows, religion A claims it's more "tolerant". That is ridiculous and frankly irritating. I have heard that some Sikhs belive that it is forbidden to shave their armpit, bear, etc hair. Islam allows say one to shave their armpits. Are we being more "tolerant" or the poor people in the desert who don't have to walk around with turbins ( I see alot of Sikhs wearing them) and alot of hair that keeps them at unbearable temperatures? Perhaps this is a poor example, but the point still stands. I could make many counter "tolerance" claims against you. Give that argument up please, it really makes you look foolish. Laws on sexxual behaviors are there not because we made them, they are there from Allah.

.
HAHA, you're talking utter tosh matey! You'll find wearing a turban is much more cooler than any otherhead gear. READ UP ON IT!

Plus, the removal of bodily hair is not permitted as it's there for a reason. If you're going to argue about not letting a person remove the hair from armpits, we'll be here all day. Why did Muhammed say not to shave the beard, but to shave the moustache? it's silly, you have no argument, you have no facts, you're churning away for nothing!
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Malaikah
06-20-2008, 12:06 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Plus, the removal of bodily hair is not permitted as it's there for a reason. If you're going to argue about not letting a person remove the hair from armpits, we'll be here all day. Why did Muhammed say not to shave the beard, but to shave the moustache? it's silly, you have no argument, you have no facts, you're churning away for nothing![/B]
Actually he said to so that the Muslim men look different to the disbelieving men.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2008, 12:09 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Actually he said to so that the Muslim men look different to the disbelieving men.

And we look different to those that do not follow Sikhism, (hence the turban being part of the Sikh Uniform)
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2008, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

From a different perspective, if the issue is a physical one with the brain, doesn't that show that homosexuality is not normal but is like a 'disease' of sorts? Is it, perhaps, something we can cure?

I wonder if this means that homosexuals would like to opt for treatment (if that ever becomes possible)
Homosexuality is a deviation, however a lot of countries don't classify it as a disease anymore. What counts as a disease is often more of a sociological thing.
A lot of people try to get rid of their sexuality today, usually through the healing power of Christ, but most end up as mentally deranged weirdos..
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AvarAllahNoor
06-20-2008, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Homosexuality is a deviation, however a lot of countries don't classify it as a disease anymore. What counts as a disease is often more of a sociological thing.
A lot of people try to get rid of their sexuality today, usually through the healing power of Christ, but most end up as mentally deranged weirdos..
Does Jesus 'heal' them then?

*Snigges*
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جوري
06-20-2008, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Erm, stop being petty! - Other animals have been doing this too, not just birds! - It's not a diesese, or unless you're stating these animals are infected too. It proves, it's natural (God's command) Plus only a minority are this way. Your agument holds no weight other than you lot follow what's been written in the Quran.
Are you equating humans with animals?
if that is the case.. we should follow all the laws that govern the animal kingdom.. for instance, animals are hardly ever monogamous.. so why is it so illegal to have more than one wife in western society? if you are going to look for your laws in the animal kingdom, it would be prudent to apply all of them, not just the ones that appeal to the current status quo, so that one can appear less of a hypocrite and more a man of principal? wouldn't you agree?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Monog...ty-42006.shtml

cheers
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Malaikah
06-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Homosexuality is a deviation, however a lot of countries don't classify it as a disease anymore. What counts as a disease is often more of a sociological thing.
That's interesting though, because to look at homosexuality as something that is predetermined by a persons brain anatomy would essentially be akin to making it out like a disorder at the very least, not a deviation.
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Whatsthepoint
06-20-2008, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
That's interesting though, because to look at homosexuality as something that is predetermined by a persons brain anatomy would essentially be akin to making it out like a disorder at the very least, not a deviation.
I'm not sure what your definition of deviation and disorder is. what I meant to say is that homosexuality is a deviation in a way that it is different from the avergae/mainstream sexual orientation. Every deviation can be considered a disorder, specially deviations a person is born with, but it is actually the society that determines whether a deviation is a also a disorder. for instance, homosexuality is considered a disorder in most parts of the world, but not in western Europe, where it is no longer illegal nor considered a disease, and homosexuals can basically live their lives, so homosexuality them problems, which is what a disorder does by definiton.. this is my theory.. I haven't really thought it up that much.
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Woodrow
06-21-2008, 04:23 PM
It does not necessarily equate that differences in brain structure would result in sexual orientation.

It can be shown that differences in brain structure give rise for a pre-dispsistion towards alcoholism, but the person need not ever be an active alcoholic.
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Uthman
06-21-2008, 06:23 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Woodrow
It can be shown that differences in brain structure give rise for a pre-dispsistion towards alcoholism, but the person need not ever be an active alcoholic.
That makes sense. Maybe some people are born with a pre-disposition towards it, but it might require a trigger of some sort. That's according to the diathesis-stress model I learnt about in psychology (which I'm dropping btw - I hate coursework).

:w:
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Chuck
06-21-2008, 11:27 PM
What is the problem here, we can all live in communities we prefer. And let nature be the judge.
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root
06-22-2008, 11:39 AM
I think it's important to remember that this study is the first of it's kind to look at the overall volume and shapes of brains within the group. Most notably lesbian women and straight men had asymmetric brains, with the right hemisphere slightly larger than the left. Gay men had symmetrical brains like those of straight women.

Brain volume and shapes are not "learned" traits and formed in the womb.

Secondly, They used scans based on positron emission to measure blood flow to the armygdala: Image below;



The mathing of gay men and strainght women and gay women with straight men might also explain why women are three times more likely to suffer from mood disorders or depression. Gay men have higher rates of depression too but this might be due to thier own biology or having to deal with homophobia.

In straight men and lesbians, the amygdala fed signals mainly to trigger "fight or flight" responses which is more of n action response mechnism in men.

This study shows that homosexuals of both sexes share not only brain volume and shape of thier counterparts but also brain connectivity.

Finally, they have looked at sexual orientation with no direct sexual orientation like past studies.

One more thing, we should be cautious when claiming that the west accepts homosexuality as this is not always true when you consider Iris Robinson (MP Northern Ireland Assembly) talking on BBC Radio:

Homosexuality is disgusting, nauseating, shameful, wicked and vile
She went on to state how her christian belief "told her" homosexuality is "an abomonation" and she advised homosexuals to psychiatric help. Interpretation of religous belief like this should not go unchallenged.
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aminahjaan
06-22-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
It's common sense and a little bit of biology. Humans cannot procreate if they are committing homosexuality. Therefore, you cannot be born gay (since it'd have to come from your genetic makeup - since both of your parents would have to be heterosexual for you to have been born in the first place, there is zero possibility of you obtaining a gay gene from them - even if your genetics were to skip a generation, homosexuality PREVENTS passing on the gene in the first place) Hence you cannot be born gay.

Zactly! You're right, and it's going against human nature and its perverted and Allah created us to be attracted to the opposite sex. SOOO, im-poss-ible
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root
06-22-2008, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by aminahgorilla
Zactly! You're right, and it's going against human nature and its perverted and Allah created us to be attracted to the opposite sex. SOOO, im-poss-ible
You just continue thinking like that you homophobic fool, lady I pity your ignorance.......;
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Tornado
06-22-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by aminahgorilla
Zactly! You're right, and it's going against human nature and its perverted and Allah created us to be attracted to the opposite sex. SOOO, im-poss-ible
When did you choose to be heterosexual?
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-23-2008, 09:40 AM
Originally Posted by Tornado
When did you choose to be heterosexual?
when did you choose to not murder?
when did you choose to not commit adultery?
when did you choose to not steal?
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AvarAllahNoor
06-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
when did you choose to not murder?
when did you choose to not commit adultery?
when did you choose to not steal?
It's common sense. We can discuss this till the cows come home. It won't be resolved. God knows why they are this way, and maybe when we return to him he'll tell us who's right and who's wrong!
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Tornado
06-23-2008, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
when did you choose to not murder?
when did you choose to not commit adultery?
when did you choose to not steal?
Homosexuals = murderers, adulterers, thieves? YIKES
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AbuSalahudeen
06-23-2008, 07:39 PM
Salam,

It doesnt mean the brain is like this when the child is born rather it becomes like that after year's of being and watching haram and being round a messed up community that promots Gay behaviour.
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Uthman
06-23-2008, 08:09 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Tornado
Homosexuals = murderers, adulterers, thieves? YIKES
That's not what he was saying!
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جوري
06-23-2008, 08:13 PM
actually to practice homosexuality is to practice adultery if I am to forgo everything else, but from what I gather being an adulterer isn't frowned upon anymore than being a sodomite..

:w:
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Allah's_Student
06-23-2008, 08:43 PM
While I think it may be possible for some people to be more likely to be "gay" than others, I am very skeptical that they can be born gay, such as a mutation.

To me, it seems that homosexual people are more prevalent than ever. And since homosexuals cannot procreate, there should not be an increase due mutations (since they cannot pass there genes). Therefore, homosexuality is probably something influenced a lot by society. That's just my opinion.
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Uthman
06-23-2008, 09:09 PM
It must be remembered that, just because somebody is homosexual, doesn't mean that they won't live their life as though they are heterosexual i.e. get married to a member of the opposite gender and have kids. It's quite possible that many would do that in order to conform to societal norms. If this is the case, then the homosexual gene (if indeed there is one) can be passed on. Am I making sense?
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Azy
06-24-2008, 04:36 PM
I can't believe there are still so many people who think that you choose to be gay or are persuaded by society.
By far the majority sexual influence is heterosexual, every day there's another woman with her bits out on tv or in the magazines.
Originally Posted by Osman
It must be remembered that, just because somebody is homosexual, doesn't mean that they won't live their life as though they are heterosexual i.e. get married to a member of the opposite gender and have kids. It's quite possible that many would do that in order to conform to societal norms. If this is the case, then the homosexual gene (if indeed there is one) can be passed on. Am I making sense?
It makes sense.
I know a couple of Muslim gays who have got married and had kids because there is no way they can admit to other muslims about how they really feel.
Also a few devout Christians who were pushed away because they couldn't pretend any more, living as people expected of them.
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Muezzin
06-24-2008, 05:43 PM
How is all this on-topic, really?

Come on, folks. Get back to brain-talk, be it scientific, pseudo-scientific, or vanilla terrific.
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Tornado
06-24-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
How is all this on-topic, really?

Come on, folks. Get back to brain-talk, be it scientific, pseudo-scientific, or vanilla terrific.
It's on topic because the scans show that homosexuality isn't a choice, that individuals have parts of brain that are similar to the opposite sex and that's why they are attracted to people of same sex.
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Muezzin
06-25-2008, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by Tornado
It's on topic because the scans show that homosexuality isn't a choice, that individuals have parts of brain that are similar to the opposite sex and that's why they are attracted to people of same sex.
Aye, but the 'Islamic ruling on homosexuality' theme is already being discussed in numerous other threads in other sections. The other stuff is fine.
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Ummah
06-25-2008, 11:06 AM
regardless of whether you are BORN homosexual, it still doesnt justify performing homosexual acts.

its the same as being born with a bad temper i think.. some people have anger management problems with doctors would say are innate and pyschological, or carried on through genes. This doesnt suddenly mean you can justify anger, anger will still be haraam.

i dont agree with homosexuality, and i never will. i dont care what argument is put in front of me
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Chuck
06-25-2008, 08:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ummah
regardless of whether you are BORN homosexual, it still doesnt justify performing homosexual acts.

its the same as being born with a bad temper i think.. some people have anger management problems with doctors would say are innate and pyschological, or carried on through genes. This doesnt suddenly mean you can justify anger, anger will still be haraam.

i dont agree with homosexuality, and i never will. i dont care what argument is put in front of me
Let me add one thing. If they want homosexuality than fine, but why thrust to accept it on us?

I went to Australia recently and somebody was talking about growth of Islam and muslim population Islamophobicly on the radio. Those type of people usually blame birth rate for the growth. And to be honest, fertility rate of muslims is higher or/and theirs is lower. One main thing, that comes to mind is lifestyle. Few things that would reduce the birth rate are:
(1) lifestyle of dating and playing around. These people don't want to have children because they don't know if they will stay together or not so they use birth control pills and other similar stuff. Many of them I've noticed when they get older they not that much interested in children, some of them don't want them at all. Some of them prefer single lifestyle.
(2) some of them become homosexuals, during adolescence many are confused whether if they are hetero or homo. So who move to homosexuality they can't reproduce at all.

I think they are many other things that are causing fertility rate to go down. Islamic countries were there is a liberation movement like Morocco fertility rates have been going down too. Families with traditional values seems to have higher fertility rate regardless of wealth.

I heard situation is so bad in Australia that govt is giving now AU$ 5,000 for pregnancy, which would cause another problem in the long run.

Everything has cause and effect. Discussions like these make me think that these people want to have their cake and eat it too.
Reply

Tornado
06-25-2008, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ummah
regardless of whether you are BORN homosexual, it still doesnt justify performing homosexual acts.

its the same as being born with a bad temper i think.. some people have anger management problems with doctors would say are innate and pyschological, or carried on through genes. This doesnt suddenly mean you can justify anger, anger will still be haraam.

i dont agree with homosexuality, and i never will. i dont care what argument is put in front of me
Yourself being a female, imagine being told that the only acceptable relationship (romantic) is with another female. Would you do it, and if you did, would you be happy?
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Chuck
06-25-2008, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tornado
Yourself being a female, imagine being told that the only acceptable relationship (romantic) is with another female. Would you do it, and if you did, would you be happy?
Look at the bright side, at least you think that with her being female she would not like to have relationship with another female. Anyhow, this analogy of yours is rather problematic. It is like asking person who dislikes drug to think:
(1) You don't like drugs but I'll force you to take drugs as that is the only acceptable way.
(2) If you can't do that, then you have no right to force your opinion on people who take drugs since see I showed you can't change what you like either.
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AntiKarateKid
06-25-2008, 10:45 PM
Originally Posted by root
You just continue thinking like that you homophobic fool, lady I pity your ignorance.......;
The only one ignorant is you here man. You know darn well that from a theistic point of view ( which I and billions hold to be true) homosexuality is a sin just like bestiality and such. But if you want sexual anarchy then thats fine by me, but dont go around calling others ignorant when stating an OPINION of yours against a religious BELIEF of ours.


But let me go along with your pseudo noble charade for a moment do you think BESTIALITY should be condemned? You are logically obligated to follow through.


This question goes to all you "accepting" atheists. DO you think bestiality is alright?
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Chuck
Look at the bright side, at least you think that with her being female she would not like to have relationship with another female. Anyhow, this analogy of yours is rather problematic. It is like asking person who dislikes drug to think:
(1) You don't like drugs but I'll force you to take drugs as that is the only acceptable way.
(2) If you can't do that, then you have no right to force your opinion on people who take drugs since see I showed you can't change what you like either.
1) Exactly, you are forcing those who are born homosexual not only be attracted to the opposite sex.


Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The only one ignorant is you here man. You know darn well that from a theistic point of view ( which I and billions hold to be true) homosexuality is a sin just like bestiality and such. But if you want sexual anarchy then thats fine by me, but dont go around calling others ignorant when stating an OPINION of yours against a religious BELIEF of ours.


But let me go along with your pseudo noble charade for a moment do you think BESTIALITY should be condemned? You are logically obligated to follow through.


This question goes to all you "accepting" atheists. DO you think bestiality is alright?
I don't know what other atheists think. However, bestiality should be condemned because it hurts the animals ( I think?) and obviously animals don't have a decision here.

Homosexuality is different. You have two people who are o.k. with one another and in the end aren't hurting anyone.
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Chuck
06-26-2008, 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by Tornado
1) Exactly, you are forcing those who are born homosexual not only be attracted to the opposite sex.
What exactly? Your analogy was problematic as I explained, which you didn't address. By the analogy of yours we should allow drugs too.
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by Chuck
What exactly? Your analogy was problematic as I explained, which you didn't address. By the analogy of yours we should allow drugs too.
How so? I'm saying that you are forcing the homosexuals to not be what they were born to be.
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Chuck
06-26-2008, 11:21 AM
Originally Posted by Tornado
How so? I'm saying that you are forcing the homosexuals to not be what they were born to be.
You are still not addressing the drug analogy. Explain why your analogy is different than the drugs analogy. Or you believe drugs should be allowed freely?
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suffiyan007
06-26-2008, 12:51 PM
talk bout Gay or homosex/lesbian....is normal in modern world...what gonna say is:

A uzubillahi minas syaitanir Rajim....

before i opening my sentences...

Bismillah hir rahma nir rahim......

Allahumma solliala muhammad wa ala ali muhammad...


:sl::D

Talk bout this issue about same sex love or Gay....is prohibited by Allah...since time oF Luth (Sodom and Gomorrah)..cause sodomy is really a huge punishment from Allah..., We dont choose to be Gay/lesbian/penkid...?
in the modern situation,people get lotsa abused by their friends and family oF same sex to make love with them...and later on sooner they will be like this... people dont like themselves to change to she male,or tomboy... and etc....people are forced to be like this cauSe is like a habits....u cant changed if wanna change,Can! must take lotsa time....u can prevail yourself and follow some good people what can i say Good samaritan to religion classes to learn bout religion and stay up with friend that heterosexual or straight women or men...!.....u can going to psycologist for counseling...is better purposed....and trying to change our thinking and attitude is the important..and so make up...and make that change...so how we can resist change? so we must pray to God to avoid sodomy or Zina...is Haram!....and steadfast in our 5 times prayer....and do lotsa zikir...for muslim....and christian we can priest or cathechism class teacher for help and counseling...
No one like to be Gay....except they want to be like that....and they said they are like that...strong in ya heart u can make the change...insyaallah!
Alleluia to the Christian!
Reply

aminahjaan
06-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by root
You just continue thinking like that you homophobic fool, lady I pity your ignorance.......;

What are you talking about? Let me have my own opinions, mom.
Are you gay?
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suffiyan007
06-26-2008, 05:26 PM
i am just to help people who are GAy...! i am straight guy!
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Uthman
06-26-2008, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
i am just to help people who are GAy...! i am straight guy!
She wasn't referring to you. :)
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
You are still not addressing the drug analogy. Explain why your analogy is different than the drugs analogy. Or you believe drugs should be allowed freely?
I don't understand your drug analogy. You are talking about somebody who dislikes drugs (similar to a homosexual who dislikes(sexually) the opposite sex), but then forcing them to to take drugs as it is the only acceptable way (forcing homosexuals to only like the opposite sex, whom they aren't attracted to).

If homosexuals get married, how does it affect you? It doesn't. Let them do what they want as long as they are happy and aren't negatively affecting anything.
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جوري
06-26-2008, 05:57 PM
This thread has completely diverted from its original path..
let's recap then we can close it!
two opinions, you can fall into the category of choice and let it rest!

Being gay is a form of sexual deviation, as originally defined by the DSM before the new age wave... It is a sin religiousely speaking! No more on the matter needs to be said..
Like knowing that pre-marital or extra marital sex is wrong without an institution
or consciousely disengaging from a pederast act with a consenting 13 year old, or taking more than one consenting wife, you understand the difference of what it is against religious law and what goes against state law..

On the other hand, you can let 'state law' define your morality and are ok with homosexuals gyrating their bodies whilst wearing blindingly colorful speedos in front of your three year olds, because they really can't help it...

Homosexuality isn't a choice to you, and certainly we have seen examples of that when ann heche decided she was no longer a lesbian, left her female lover Ellen DeGeneres to become hetrosexual again, or when George Micheal decided to forgo women for lewd acts in public for which he was arrested more than once...

No, it is as the scans on those ninty folks tell us, an inborn trait..

with that I hope we are done here!
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Chuck
06-26-2008, 06:06 PM
Some corrections for what you put in brackets.
Originally Posted by Tornado
You are talking about somebody who dislikes drugs (similar to a homosexual who dislikes(sexually) the opposite sex)
Nope: similar to a heterosexual who dislikes(sexually) the same sex.

Originally Posted by Tornado
but then forcing them to to take drugs as it is the only acceptable way (forcing homosexuals to only like the opposite sex, whom they aren't attracted to)
Nope: forcing heterosexual to only like the same sex, whom they aren't attracted to.

It was a parallel to your analogy that you were giving to the sister here.


Originally Posted by Tornado
If homosexuals get married, how does it affect you? It doesn't. Let them do what they want as long as they are happy and aren't negatively affecting anything.
How does drug additicts taking drugs affect me either?
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Umar001
06-26-2008, 06:07 PM
Has this thread not run its course?
Reply

Tornado
06-26-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Has this thread not run its course?
Yea probably.

Chuck, I truly understand your analogy at all.
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 06:27 PM
..sorry, I meant I don't understand
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root
06-26-2008, 06:45 PM
I think it has run it's course. I think it's a great example that Islamaphobia and homophobia are both the same thing, they are both grounded in ignorance. Islam to me appears more homophobic than any other religion on this planet.

Nuff said me thinks.
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Chuck
06-26-2008, 06:47 PM
If you guys want to end the thread, then I'll explain without going into step by step.

(1) I see a problem with his analogy. He assumed female will have a healthy relationship with male, which goes against what he is trying to show here. I don't know why he would use that analogy.

(2) Perhaps he was trying to show that heterosexual can't be homo so neither can homo be hetero. Now that doesn't show that they are born with it? His analogy is about likes and dislikes rather than if a person is born with it. Not to mention he is comparing with a healthy choice with unhealthy choice. Naturally most people will prefer healthy choice, it doesn't add to his argument if these people can't take unhealthy choice. But anyway lets move forward.

(3) In OP it is said that homos have a different brain so it should be acceptable. Well brain of drug addicts are different too.
There are many biological factors that are involved with the addicted brain. "The addicted brain is distinctly different from the nonaddicted brain, as manifested by changes in brain metabolic activity, receptor availability, gene expression, and responsiveness to environmental cues."

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1891
(4) If their society accepts homosexuality, fine, it is their society. But Muslim society don't need to accept it which they consider against the natural order created by God. Many western countries are now paying for birth to increase their population. Tell me which muslim country pays to increase their population. If these lifestyles are going against natural selection and evolution then what there is to add what is natural and what is not. :giggling:

adios
Reply

جوري
06-26-2008, 06:59 PM
Here is a guy who draws assimilations between religion and a deviant sexual act..
Do we really need to keep this going? further do you really need members like that aboard?


:w:
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suffiyan007
06-26-2008, 07:04 PM
u can refer to koran(Quran) the tafseer translated arabic to English....! u will know that God the Allah punished the people of Prophet Luth....people going to be gay...and God Sent down the stone rain onto the people who doing homosex..(in Sodom and Gomorrah)....Allah turn the world upside down....and the homosex people trapped into the water....now is called Dead Sea....!the dead sea if peope going there u swim u will not be drowned! and this is the lesson that teach the peoples who on that centurY!
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suffiyan007
06-26-2008, 07:09 PM
luth has given his daughter to the people....but no one seem attracted and his wife also punished by God !

God Said: a man dont ever love a man, he will punish.if not punish in the world it will punish on the LAST DAY....(judgement Day)...and the day u die!
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by root
I think it has run it's course. I think it's a great example that Islamaphobia and homophobia are both the same thing, they are both grounded in ignorance. Islam to me appears more homophobic than any other religion on this planet.

Nuff said me thinks.
I don't know about more homophobic, but I do think it's very sad that there is even a discussion like this :cry:
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BlackMamba
06-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Wouldn't the fact that there are much less gays in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, prove that people arent born gay?
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Wouldn't the fact that there are much less gays in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, prove that people arent born gay?
the fact that there are less openly gay people in the KSA proves that the KSA is a repressive country.
Some say that the fact gay people exist in countries like SA is a proof enough gays are born that way..
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Tornado
06-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Wouldn't the fact that there are much less gays in Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, prove that people arent born gay?
It doesn't. Coming out and admitting that you are gay or a lesbian is harder to do in Saudi Arabia that it would be to do in a society where it's more acceptable. If anything, the scans pretty much prove people are born that way.
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AvarAllahNoor
06-26-2008, 08:29 PM
Al Habeshi it has, close it please.
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BlackMamba
06-26-2008, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
the fact that there are less openly gay people in the KSA proves that the KSA is a repressive country.
Some say that the fact gay people exist in countries like SA is a proof enough gays are born that way..
Okay, theres 25 million gays in the United States alone, thats like 12 percent. I know that theres not that many gays in KSA. Maybe a few here and there but not anywhere near 12 percent. And of the gays in KSA, barely any probably commit sodomy, which is the what is actually punishable by religions.
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Azy
06-27-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Being gay is a form of sexual deviation, as originally defined by the DSM before the new age wave... It is a sin religiousely speaking! No more on the matter needs to be said..
I thought the homosexual act was prohibited, not the state of being homosexual itself.
As for it's classification, are we to accept medical progress only so long as the Islamic world agrees with the outcome?
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
On the other hand, you can let 'state law' define your morality and are ok with homosexuals gyrating their bodies whilst wearing blindingly colorful speedos in front of your three year olds, because they really can't help it...
State law and morality should probably be two separate things, each person's morality is subjective and individual.
On the issue of homosexuals gyrating in front of three year olds, perhaps the parents should take responsibility for where their children are and what they're doing.
If it's genuinely lewd behaviour in public, most countries have laws against that.

Chuck
Many drugs are available freely, alcohol, nicotine, why pick drugs? Why not forcing people to eat cake if they don't want to? I think you're just trying to play on the extra revulsion factor that muslims will have towards drug use.

When discussing sex between heterosexuals, is the physical act all that matters? Surely in Islam sex is not something that happens independently, it must be within marriage between loving partners. Most people would see the sexual act as an integral part of a normal relationship, why must you separate it out into a purely mechanical act when it comes to homosexuals?
Are you ok with homosexuals who live together and have an otherwise full relationship but without the sex?

Originally Posted by Chuck
(1) I see a problem with his analogy. He assumed female will have a healthy relationship with male, which goes against what he is trying to show here. I don't know why he would use that analogy.
He assumed the poster was heterosexual. Being a female muslim arguing against homosexuality I don't think that's too bad an assumption.

Originally Posted by Chuck
(2) Perhaps he was trying to show that heterosexual can't be homo so neither can homo be hetero. Now that doesn't show that they are born with it?
He was illustrating that one can't choose who they're sexually attracted to. Try it out.
Originally Posted by Chuck
(3) In OP it is said that homos have a different brain so it should be acceptable. Well brain of drug addicts are different too.
So different people are susceptible to different things, where are you going with that?
Originally Posted by Chuck
(4) If their society accepts homosexuality, fine, it is their society. But Muslim society don't need to accept it which they consider against the natural order created by God. Many western countries are now paying for birth to increase their population. Tell me which muslim country pays to increase their population. If these lifestyles are going against natural selection and evolution then what there is to add what is natural and what is not.
Is pumping out babies somehow more worthy than being a productive citizen in an economic sense? What does population growth have to do with morality? Since when did you start arguing on the basis of evolution? Define 'natural'.
Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Okay, theres 25 million gays in the United States alone, thats like 12 percent. I know that theres not that many gays in KSA. Maybe a few here and there but not anywhere near 12 percent. And of the gays in KSA, barely any probably commit sodomy, which is the what is actually punishable by religions.
Interesting you use the USA as an example since they are the most religious of the Western nations and should by your reasoning have the lowest rates of homosexuality.
I think your last sentence gives you the answer, sodomy is punishable in KSA, so why would gays openly admit to it?
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Malaikah
06-27-2008, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Tornado
If anything, the scans pretty much prove people are born that way.
Really? I must have missed the part in the article where it said the researchers went back in time to scan the brains of the gay people as babies to figure out if they were different at birth as well...:blind:
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Chuck
06-27-2008, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
I think you're just trying to play on the extra revulsion factor that muslims will have towards drug use.
We have a mind reader here :rollseyes

Your comment is red herring, but I'll tell why I choose drugs example:
(1) Not choosing drugs is healthier choice, same goes for homosexuality.
(2) Brain factor is same for both: homosexuals and drug addicts.

He was illustrating that one can't choose who they're sexually attracted to. Try it out.
I'm not gonna try heroin either, whats the point really?

So different people are susceptible to different things, where are you going with that?
Brain of drug addicts are different too like homosexuals, but drug addicts have a choice and homosexuals don't? I don't see the logic here. Shouldn't it be same for both?

Is pumping out babies somehow more worthy than being a productive citizen in an economic sense? What does population growth have to do with morality?
You need to be more specific. It should be with moderation and balance, but when countries start to pay thousands per birth, there is something apparently going wrong.

Muslim countries have their problems too, different ones, which they need to work on and they don't need other problems. This will only add to their financial problems. It is adding to health costs and insurance in developed nations.

Btw, population and size is directly related to economics e.g. China vs Taiwan.

Since when did you start arguing on the basis of evolution? Define 'natural'.
Definition of 'natural way of life' will differ from person to person but for this subject I would say living in ways what elements in nature supports the best. For example, living clean and hygienically is living natural way of life. However, it is a complex subject can be argued in many ways. Imo, best is to let the time determine to which type societies/communities nature favors.
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جوري
06-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
I thought the homosexual act was prohibited, not the state of being homosexual itself.
Homosexuality prohibited by religion!.. other acts of sexual deviation pederast(y) the same homosexual act with an underage consenting or nonconsenting boy is prohibited by state law solely on age!


As for it's classification, are we to accept medical progress only so long as the Islamic world agrees with the outcome?
unlike most fields of medicine psychiatry relies a great deal on the theoretical.. something as esoteric as human behavior can't be subject to probing medical exams, as far as I am concerned it is of the same variety as the rest of the sexually deviant acts that didn't make it to normalcy and I am not alone on this speaking simply purely from a medical stand point!


State law and morality should probably be two separate things, each person's morality is subjective and individual.
That is the way it is, isn't it? indeed morality has become subjective, and debauchery is regnant!


On the issue of homosexuals gyrating in front of three year olds, perhaps the parents should take responsibility for where their children are and what they're doing.
It isn't the responsibility of society to accommodate a deviant few, rather vice versa, at least that is how it is last I checked in a democratic state? 'majority rules'


If it's genuinely lewd behaviour in public, most countries have laws against that.

?
I was just in tribecca (manhattan) when a gay couple groped each other in public one of them exposing the other in a sort of elated triumph, and they got away with it.. a cop can't be in every corner to enforce the law, but little children and adults who shouldn't see or don't approve of this sort of obscene behavior are more often the subject to it, then they need or want to be!
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BlackMamba
06-27-2008, 05:55 PM
Azy, do u honestly think that 12 percent of Saudi Arabia is gay and hiding it? I just went there this month and I dont see 12 percent of Makkah and Madinah being gay
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Chuck
06-27-2008, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
Interesting you use the USA as an example since they are the most religious of the Western nations and should by your reasoning have the lowest rates of homosexuality.
He is comparing to KSA, not western nation. Another thing, conservatives are in office, but there is significant liberal population in cities and states in US. Whole US is not a good representative of religious values.
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Muezzin
06-29-2008, 02:37 PM
Should have locked this when I sniffed 'off topic' a while a back. Oh well. Better late than never.
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