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crayon
06-25-2008, 05:47 PM
WASHINGTON (CNN) --The U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 Wednesday that child rapists cannot be executed, concluding capital punishment is reserved for murderers.

Patrick Kennedy, 43, was on Louisiana's death row after being convicted of raping his 8-year-old stepdaughter.

The ruling stemmed from the case of Patrick Kennedy, who appealed the 2003 death sentence he received in Louisiana after being convicted of raping his 8-year-old stepdaughter.
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion that "evolving standards of decency" in the United States forbid capital punishment for any crime other than murder.
"We conclude that, in determining whether the death penalty is excessive, there is a distinction between intentional first-degree murder on the one hand and nonhomicide crimes against individual persons, even including child rape, on the other," wrote Anthony Kennedy, who is of no relation to the convicted rapist.
Execution of Patrick Kennedy, the justice also wrote, would be unconstitutional on the grounds of the Eighth Amendment, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment.
Patrick Kennedy, 43, would have been the first convicted rapist since 1964 to be executed in a case in which the victim was not killed.
Kennedy was convicted of sexually assaulting his stepdaughter in her bed. The attack caused internal injuries and bleeding to the child, requiring extensive surgery, as well as severe emotional trauma, Louisiana prosecutors said.

Anthony Kennedy -- supported by Justices John Paul Stevens, David Souter, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer -- wrote that the prohibition against cruel punishment derives its meaning from the "evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society."
"The rule of evolving standards of decency ... means that resort to the [death] penalty must be reserved for the worst of crimes and limited in its instances of application," the opinion read.
After a review of the "history of the death penalty for this and other nonhomicide crimes, current state statutes and new enactments, and the number of executions since 1964, we conclude there is a national consensus against capital punishment for the crime of child rape," Anthony Kennedy wrote.
Justice Samuel Alito wrote the dissent, saying, "The harm that is caused to the victims and to society at large by the worst child rapist is grave." He was supported by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.
In his dissent, Alito wrote that the majority ruled against the death penalty "no matter how young the child, no matter how many times the child is raped, no matter how many children the perpetrator rapes, no matter how sadistic the crime, no matter how much physical or psychological trauma is inflicted and no matter how heinous the perpetrator's criminal record may be."
Lawyers for the defendant filed appeals repeatedly raising the issue of skin color, suggesting it may have been a factor in the broader political and legal debate over expanding capital crimes to include rape. Patrick Kennedy and the victim are both African-American.
Billy Sothern of the Capital Appeals Project cited Department of Justice statistics that all 14 rapists executed by Louisiana in the past 75 years or so were African-American. Nationwide from 1930 to 1964, nearly 90 percent of executed rapists were black, he said.
But the issue of race did not come up in oral arguments.
The high court has in recent years banned execution for the mentally retarded, underage killers and those deemed to have had an inadequate defense at trial.
U.S. Supreme Court rulings in 1976 and 1977 barred capital punishment for rape -- and by implication any other crime except murder. But Louisiana later passed a law allowing execution for the sexual violation of a child under 12. State lawmakers argued that the earlier high court cases pertained only to "adult women."
Florida, Montana, Oklahoma and South Carolina have death-penalty laws for rape, but have not applied them in decades. Texas enacted a version a year ago, but no defendant has been designated death-eligible for child rape in any state but Louisiana.
No one has been executed for rape in the United States since 1964. Other state and federal crimes theoretically eligible for execution include treason, aggravated kidnapping, drug trafficking, aircraft hijacking and espionage. None of these crimes have been prosecuted as a capital offense in decades, if ever.
Supporters of Louisiana's law say that besides murder, no crime is more deserving of the death penalty than child rape, and the punishment would be used only in the most heinous of circumstances.


Death penalty opponents contend, among other things, that it could give attackers a reason to murder their victims. In Wednesday's ruling, Anthony Kennedy agreed, writing, "A state that punishes child rape by death may remove a strong incentive for the rapist not to kill the victim."
Patrick Kennedy was recently joined on Louisiana's death row by another convicted child rapist, Richard Davis. Davis' legal appeals have barely begun, but his case, along with Kennedy's, will be sent back for resentencing in light of the ruling.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/06...us.child.rape/

This enrages me.
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Keltoi
06-26-2008, 03:01 PM
This shows why conservatives feel the Supreme Court is the most important battle for the future of the country.
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aamirsaab
06-26-2008, 03:22 PM
:sl:
What I don't get is it's fine to kill enemy soldiers, but not a child rapist?

It used to be fun pointing out the hypocrisy/bullcrap of society....not anymore.
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Eeman
06-26-2008, 03:41 PM
Is it really necessary to kill someone who is a criminal and done wrong. i mean is the only way of punishment by killing them? and wouldnt that come as murder?

i mean i understand that the person is evil and that what they have don is beyond any doubt WRONG! but i am sure that there are other ways of punishing them rather than killing them and plus who are we to judge who has the right to live or die? isnt that interfering with Allah swt judgement or trying to more like. not that we will be able to interfer with anything of His unless Allah swt wills.
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------
06-26-2008, 03:47 PM
:salamext:

^ Islam allows killing in certain conditions. It's in the Shari'ah. But you should not go beyond what the other person has wronged you.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 04:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Serene -
:salamext:

^ Islam allows killing in certain conditions. It's in the Shari'ah. But you should not go beyond what the other person has wronged you.
Agreed. We did execute a child rapist who murdered a child in Florida, but that was because there was a murder charge attached to it. But for rape, this is usually punishable as a form of assault. The Catholic Church paid a small fortune in settlements to the victims of the pedophile priests, and the victims themselves considered this to be an acceptable arrangement. I know what rape is like, but even if the state produced that man, I would not order his execution over it.

The Ninth Scribe
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 04:36 PM
Good, a move in the right direction. Hopefully someday the death penalty will be abolished in the US and then, the world.
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Eeman
06-26-2008, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Agreed. We did execute a child rapist who murdered a child in Florida, but that was because there was a murder charge attached to it. But for rape, this is usually punishable as a form of assault. The Catholic Church paid a small fortune in settlements to the victims of the pedophile priests, and the victims themselves considered this to be an acceptable arrangement. I know what rape is like, but even if the state produced that man, I would not order his execution over it.

The Ninth Scribe
if you dont mind me asking under the ninth scribe is that hebrew writing? and what is the 9th scribe?

ma salama.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
if you dont mind me asking under the ninth scribe is that hebrew writing? and what is the 9th scribe?

ma salama.
Wow, not many people ask that question. It is old Hebrew... it reads:

Love is as Strong as Death ~ Remember me.

It's what my angel always tells me before he leaves. Now, my angel used to be a scribe and the 9th scribe is just a game of numbers. The number 9 has a behavioral quirk to it, in that every time you multiply it with another number, it always comes back to itself, like this:

9 x 2 = 18 (1 + 8 = 9)
9 x 3 = 27 (2 + 7 = 9)
9 x 4 = 36 (3 + 6 = 9)
9 x 5 = 45 (4 + 5 = 9)

So this is just a mathematical expresson of a scribe who remains himself, no matter how many times he's been multiplied forward by the generations. Kind of like the statement, The Beginning is the End. It's not to be taken seriously, it's just an odd form of poetic license. He's weird like that.

The Ninth Scribe
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Eeman
06-26-2008, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Wow, not many people ask that question. It is old Hebrew... it reads:

Love is as Strong as Death ~ Remember me.

It's what my angel always tells me before he leaves. Now, my angel used to be a scribe and the 9th scribe is just a game of numbers. The number 9 has a behavioral quirk to it, in that every time you multiply it with another number, it always comes back to itself, like this:

The Ninth Scribe
Your angel?????? :?
ummm who is ur angel?
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
Your angel?????? :?
ummm who is ur angel?
His name is Azra'el. He is NOT the Angel of Death. He describes himself as Ezra, the son of Sariah, a scribe who lived 2500 years ago.

He turns up in my dreams frequently.

The Ninth Scribe
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Eeman
06-26-2008, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
His name is Azra'el. He is NOT the Angel of Death. He describes himself as Ezra, the son of Sariah, a scribe who lived 2500 years ago.

He turns up in my dreams frequently.

The Ninth Scribe
:omg: okaaay.

hmmmm well i have nothing to say to that at least you know an angel i guess. :)
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Keltoi
06-26-2008, 07:38 PM
Of course the punishment should fit the crime. While all sexual abuse of children(in whatever forms they take) is an obviously terrible crime, there are some cases, as the case the Supreme Court looked at for this decision, when the punishment of death seems quite appropriate. The death penalty is not something I take lightly, but the details of this case are worse than some murders I've seen described.

Just to be blunt without detail, the victim required surgery to repair the damage
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 08:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Wow, not many people ask that question. It is old Hebrew... it reads:

Love is as Strong as Death ~ Remember me.

It's what my angel always tells me before he leaves. Now, my angel used to be a scribe and the 9th scribe is just a game of numbers. The number 9 has a behavioral quirk to it, in that every time you multiply it with another number, it always comes back to itself, like this:

9 x 2 = 18 (1 + 8 = 9)
9 x 3 = 27 (2 + 7 = 9)
9 x 4 = 36 (3 + 6 = 9)
9 x 5 = 45 (4 + 5 = 9)

So this is just a mathematical expresson of a scribe who remains himself, no matter how many times he's been multiplied forward by the generations. Kind of like the statement, The Beginning is the End. It's not to be taken seriously, it's just an odd form of poetic license. He's weird like that.

The Ninth Scribe
It doesn't work with every number.
Its true though that every number multiplied by 9 will have a sum of factors divisible by 9.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It doesn't work with every number.
Its true though that every number multiplied by 9 will have a sum of factors divisible by 9.
Post one that doesn't, and you add the sums together, you don't divide them. :)

Divide and Subtract are trouble makers whether it's with numbers or people. In a philosophical sense, you multiply to add to your numbers. You divide to take them away.

The Ninth Scribe
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Post one that doesn't, and you add the sums together, you don't divide them. :)

The Ninth Scribe
11 × 9 = 99; 9 + 9 = 18; 18 : 9 = 2

1216123612 × 9 = 10 945 112 508; 1 + 9 + 4 +5 + 1+ 1 + 2 + 5 + 8 = 36; 36 : 9 = 4

What I meant is that if you multiply any number with nine and add up its factors you'll get a number that can be divided by 9.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
11 × 9 = 99; 9 + 9 = 18; 18 : 9 = 2

1216123612 × 9 = 10 945 112 508; 1 + 9 + 4 +5 + 1+ 1 + 2 + 5 + 8 = 36; 36 : 9 = 4

What I meant is that if you multiply any number with nine and add up its factors you'll get a number that can be divided by 9.
That's using division for the last set.

It's supposed to go: 9 + 9 = 18 (1 + 8 = 9)

You always add the sums from other sums.

1 + 9 + 4 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 8 = 36 (3 + 6 = 9)

The Ninth Scribe
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
That's using division for the last set.


It's supposed to go: 9 + 9 = 18 (1 + 8 = 9)

You always add the sums from other sums.

The Ninth Scribe
Ooops, you got me there.:-[ I shouldve looke better.

No, wait.., it's fine.
it's logical, when you look at it. Any number divisible by 9 will have s um of factors divisible by 9, and that sum will also have a sum of factors divisble by nine and it goes on until you come to nine.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Ooops, you got me there.:-[ I shouldve looke better.

No, wait.., it's fine.
it's logical, when you look at it. Any number divisible by 9 will have s um of factors divisible by 9, and that sum will also have a sum of factors divisble by nine and it goes on until you come to nine.
Well the beauty of the mathematical expression is in it's forward motion. There is no division or subtraction used in this little diddy of his. You just multiply the 9, to any number, and then add the sets of sums. It's flawless, so I included it in my screen name ~ but I never dreamt anyone would ever ask what it meant :)

The Ninth Scribe
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Whatsthepoint
06-26-2008, 08:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Well the beauty of the mathematical expression is in it's forward motion. There is no division or subtraction used in this little diddy of his. You just multiply the 9, to any number, and then add the sets of sums. It's flawless, so I included it in my screen name ~ but I never dreamt anyone would ever ask what it meant :)

The Ninth Scribe
It's all about divisibility though, not that that make it any less fascinating.
does the hebrew inscription also hold any peculiar mathematical properties?
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Ninth_Scribe
06-26-2008, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It's all about divisibility though, not that that make it any less fascinating.
does the hebrew inscription also hold any peculiar mathematical properties?
I don't think so. It's part of an actual record called the Song of Songs, except the "Remember me" part. I'm not sure where that comes from, but the whole passage read:

Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm, for Love is as strong as Death.

I was going to have that tatooed on my arm, but the Jewish scholars went ballistic, and it led to a 4 month long debate. One that I lost because of this passage:

Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the sons of God. You shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness on your heads on account of the dead.

On a weirder note, that incident led to the second time I read a passage that described the "sons of God" as men... and that, in turn, led me into a whole different debate. Like the math formula, one thing leads to another and it never seems to end. Sometimes, I feel like I'm just following a trail of bread crumbs.

The Ninth Scribe
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snakelegs
06-27-2008, 12:59 AM
i am against the death penalty mainly for 2 reasons.
there have been people who have sat in prison for decades for crimes they did not commit (including rape and murder) and eventually, through DNA testing, their innocence was proven and they were exonerated.
see here:
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
the other reason is that our justice system is not always just. often there are different versions for rich and poor.
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snakelegs
06-27-2008, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe

Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm, for Love is as strong as Death.

I was going to have that tatooed on my arm, but the Jewish scholars went ballistic, and it led to a 4 month long debate. One that I lost because of this passage:

Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the sons of God. You shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness on your heads on account of the dead.
this is true - tatoos are forbidden in judaism, as is body piercing. i'm pretty sure that islam forbids both also.
btw, do you know hebrew?
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
His name is Azra'el. He is NOT the Angel of Death. He describes himself as Ezra, the son of Sariah, a scribe who lived 2500 years ago.

He turns up in my dreams frequently.

The Ninth Scribe
you know you mentioned this angel of yours... is he in the form of a human?
and what does this angel do for you?
sorry im just curious.
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 04:12 AM
Tie the guy to a car and drag his alive body across America. Leaving a strong statement to rest of the losers.
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 04:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
Tie the guy to a car and drag his alive body across America. Leaving a strong statement to rest of the losers.
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!
someone is being a little unrealistic.

plus i do not think any law would allow that and im pretty sure that is not in shariah law either.

lol

ma salama brother.
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 04:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!
someone is being a little unrealistic.

plus i do not think any law would allow that and im pretty sure that is not in shariah law either.

lol

ma salama brother.
How is that unrealistic? It happens in many countries parts of India, Pakistan and Afganistan. Also it was just a suggestion. I actually agree more with Shariah bury him half way and allow the families of victims to throw rocks on them.
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 05:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
How is that unrealistic? It happens in many countries parts of India, Pakistan and Afganistan. Also it was just a suggestion. I actually agree more with Shariah bury him half way and allow the families of victims to throw rocks on them.
yeah but i mean is that really necessary?
in Afghanistan the taliban used to shoot women who were simply accused of commiting zina by their mother in laws.

is that justice?
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Malaikah
06-27-2008, 08:37 AM
:sl:

That is disgusting...

For the judge to think that the death penalty is excessive for rape is pathetic.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
yeah but i mean is that really necessary?
in Afghanistan the taliban used to shoot women who were simply accused of commiting zina by their mother in laws.

is that justice?

Proof?
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------
06-27-2008, 08:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
Tie the guy to a car and drag his alive body across America. Leaving a strong statement to rest of the losers.
:salamext:

Yup.
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Whatsthepoint
06-27-2008, 10:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
How is that unrealistic? It happens in many countries parts of India, Pakistan and Afganistan. Also it was just a suggestion. I actually agree more with Shariah bury him half way and allow the families of victims to throw rocks on them.
I heard women are buried up to the neck. Is this true?
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Cabdullahi
06-27-2008, 10:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I heard women are buried up to the neck. Is this true?
YOU HEARD ,lololol:laugh:
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Whatsthepoint
06-27-2008, 10:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
YOU HEARD ,lololol:laugh:
Actually I read it, that's just the expression.
Can you just tell me whether I'm right or wrong?

Heres an example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-adultery.html

Under Islamic law a male convict is buried up to the waist with his hands tied behind his back, while a female is usually buried up to her neck.
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aamirsaab
06-27-2008, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Actually I read it, that's just the expression.
Can you just tell me whether I'm right or wrong?

Heres an example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-adultery.html

Under Islamic law a male convict is buried up to the waist with his hands tied behind his back, while a female is usually buried up to her neck.
I don't know enough about that case to make a fair judgement. I've heard some pretty bad stuff about Iran and I do not know how well they follow Islamic law. I don't know how qualified their judge is in terms of sharia law nor do I know the social context of that country well enough to make any form of judgement. From what I have read, the semi burying is part of the punishment for adultery under Islam law (if one would like, I can explain to you why the punishment is so harsh)

Child rape (and rape in general) would come under adultery/zina. But, only the adult (or rapist) would come under punishment - not the victim. With that being said, the accused would have to go on trial and the opposition would have to 100% sway the judge that the accused was guilty - any doubt in the judges mind and he is not to hand out the hadd (aka harsh aka stoning etc) punishment. Thus, the Judge (or Qadi) has a lot of responsibility on his shoulders and should not take any pleasure in handing this punishment out (infact, the way the islamic courts work is that the judge is on the accused side ergo innocent until proven guilty); it is a very harsh punishment for a very serious crime.
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Whatsthepoint
06-27-2008, 11:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
I don't know enough about that case to make a fair judgement. I've heard some pretty bad stuff about Iran and I do not know how well they follow Islamic law. I don't know how qualified their judge is in terms of sharia law nor do I know the social context of that country well enough to make any form of judgement. From what I have read, the semi burying is part of the punishment for adultery under Islam law (if one would like, I can explain to you why the punishment is so harsh)
All I'm trying to find out is whether women are always buried deeper than men. If not, does it depend on the severity of the crime, can men too be buried to the neck?
Do the Quran and the hadiths say anything about semi-burial?
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06-27-2008, 11:23 AM
What are you on about?!?!
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Cabdullahi
06-27-2008, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Actually I read it, that's just the expression.
Can you just tell me whether I'm right or wrong?

Heres an example:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-adultery.html

Under Islamic law a male convict is buried up to the waist with his hands tied behind his back, while a female is usually buried up to her neck.
OH so now you read from the dailymail:enough!: thats even worse,you know what i live in a country and society that stimulates rape like no business,i woke up today to have some breakfast and on the cereal box there's a naked women and for complete thirty minutes i was trying to figure out what has this naked women got to do with a cereal?

I looked at the justice system of britain regarding rape and sexual assault and i think its very just,because they stimulate rape and then they forgive or just be lenient with suspect,on that particular thing i think its very just LOL
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Whatsthepoint
06-27-2008, 11:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmedjunior
OH so now you read from the dailymail:enough!: thats even worse,you know what i live in a country and society that stimulates rape like no business,i woke up today to have some breakfast and on the cereal box there's a naked women and for complete thirty minutes i was trying to figure out what has this naked women got to do with a cereal?

I looked at the justice system of britain regarding rape and sexual assault and i think its very just,because they stimulate rape and then they forgive or just be lenient with suspect,on that particular thing i think its very just LOL
She was not naked, I am sure. 30 minutes, eh?:D:-[:)
Look, if you can't answer my question, then don't reply at all.
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06-27-2008, 11:30 AM
There is no need to be rude whatsthepoint. You ask daft questions, and then you expect us to ignore it??!! Puh-lease.
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Whatsthepoint
06-27-2008, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Serene -
There is no need to be rude whatsthepoint. You ask daft questions, and then you expect us to ignore it??!! Puh-lease.
I don't expet ou to ignore it, I expect you to try to answer it, like al habeshi did.
And it's not daft at all.
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aamirsaab
06-27-2008, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
All I'm trying to find out is whether women are always buried deeper than men. If not, does it depend on the severity of the crime, can men too be buried to the neck?
Do the Quran and the hadiths say anything about semi-burial?
I'll have a check tonight when I get back from work. From what I can remember, the burying does not depend on the severity of the crime but I will have to check with my sharia law text book. I'll also check about the burying - not sure if it is in the Quran at all mind you.
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Cabdullahi
06-27-2008, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
She was not naked, I am sure. 30 minutes, eh?:D:-[:)
Look, if you can't answer my question, then don't reply at all.
OK :rollseyes

Why is that report only talking about iran im sure other countries do the same(TORTURE AND DEATH PENALTY) like china,even russia,so why only iran OHHHH I KNOW NOW they have nuclear weapons and if they kill their criminals in that manner then we should all be afraid:skeleton::skeleton:
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06-27-2008, 11:46 AM
Why are u bothering with him AJ? Ignore. He knows full well what u meant.
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

That is disgusting...

For the judge to think that the death penalty is excessive for rape is pathetic.




Proof?
This was the time of the taliban, there were private and secret videos made of the court days that were held in a football stadium, they dont have such material on youtube but these videos were being circulated around on middle eastern news tv channels at that time.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-27-2008, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
you know you mentioned this angel of yours... is he in the form of a human?
and what does this angel do for you?
sorry im just curious.
He's a human soul. I call him "angel" but I'm not being serious. It's just what everyone told me he was before it got so rediculous, I had to confront him on the subject. Judging from the records of others who encountered him, he first surfaced back in 1951, just after the Jews re-entered Israel. He's not particularly pleased, which I thought was weird considering the fact that he led a return to Judah, from Babylon, back when he lived. But... I investigated and he has quite a number of legitimate complaints.

To me, it doesn't actually matter where the information comes from. I don't trust the word of the living or the dead, but if it's verifiable (and it is), and if it can help the situation in my life and times ~ who cares who told me how to find it?

The Ninth Scribe
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
yeah but i mean is that really necessary?
in Afghanistan the taliban used to shoot women who were simply accused of commiting zina by their mother in laws.

is that justice?
Taliban followed Shariah so I doubt they would take the word of one person without any evidence.
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I heard women are buried up to the neck. Is this true?
Its man or woman that is married and commits adultery. Western media for some reasom always covers the women being punished.
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 03:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
Taliban followed Shariah so I doubt they would take the word of one person without any evidence.
well doesnt the Qur'an say to bring fourth 4 witnesses?
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
yeah but i mean is that really necessary?
What do you mean is that really necessary? Do you mean we should allow a child rapist lose?
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
well doesnt the Qur'an say to bring fourth 4 witnesses?
Yes
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Izyan
06-27-2008, 03:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
Its man or woman that is married and commits adultery. Western media for some reasom always covers the women being punished.
Yes but a man is only covered to the waist while the woman is covered to her neck.
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Izyan
06-27-2008, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
What do you mean is that really necessary? Do you mean we should allow a child rapist lose?
Who said they will be let loose?
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Yes but a man is only covered to the waist while the woman is covered to her neck.
I have personally never seen this take place so I cannot comment on it. Also what difference does it make?
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Eeman
06-27-2008, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
Yes
so were the taliban really following shariah?
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
so were the taliban really following shariah?
lol I really don't know. I never been to Afganistan. Also most of what we heard from the media is a lie. It was to build up a war agiasnt Taliban and justify it. I am sure Taliban would not change the laws of Shariah. Probably you are confused with the Northern Alliance.
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aamirsaab
06-27-2008, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
Yes but a man is only covered to the waist while the woman is covered to her neck.
Just had a read up on it in the Quran; the ayats pertaining to the punishment make no comment about semi burial (i.e it is not a punishment God has ordained). This is most likely some shia practice - I have not encountered any hadith, sunnah or Quranic ayats confirming semi burial of anykind. What Iran's law on this matter is being based on is certainly beyond me!

Edit: Afghanistan doesn't follow sharia law completely.
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Izyan
06-27-2008, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Questfortruth
I have personally never seen this take place so I cannot comment on it. Also what difference does it make?
It makes a huge difference because if they are able to escape they are allowed to go free.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-27-2008, 03:31 PM
I don't know, call me old fashioned but I believe a punishment should compliment the crime. So, I wouldn't kill a child rapist. That's letting him off easy.

I would, however, turn him into a eunuch :Evil: ~ and have him serve the household of his victim until such time as she regains her sense of authority.

The Ninth Scribe
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Questfortruth
06-27-2008, 03:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
It makes a huge difference because if they are able to escape they are allowed to go free.
I am not sure where you heard if he escapes he is free. Here is a hadeeth:

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4969; Muslim, 1691

It was narrated from Jaabir that a man from (the tribe of) Aslam came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was in the mosque and he said, “I have committed adultery.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) turned his face away from him. The man came to that side to which the Prophet had turned his face, and testified against himself four times. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "Are you mad?” He said, “No.” The Prophet said, “Are you married?" He said, "Yes.” So he commanded that he be stoned in the Musalla (Eid prayer place). When the stones troubled him, he ran away, until he was caught in al-Harrah and killed.
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Izyan
06-27-2008, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
I don't know, call me old fashioned but I believe a punishment should fit with the crime. So, I wouldn't kill a child rapist...

I would, however, turn him into a eunuch :Evil: ~ and have him serve the household of his victim.

The Ninth Scribe
No problem with the Eunich solution but him serving the household would be a bad idea. It would be a constant reminder to the family of what this man has done.
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Ninth_Scribe
06-27-2008, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
No problem with the Eunich solution but him serving the household would be a bad idea. It would be a constant reminder to the family of what this man has done.
Yes, not a very good position for them to be in, but it's a chance to redeem both souls, his victim's and his own. I think people do have to learn to face each other when these things happen, otherwise, neither will heal properly. The victim will always know fear and the criminal will never have to get to know the family he harmed, a situation that almost always leads to true remorse (healing of one's soul).

The Ninth Scribe
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Izyan
06-27-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ninth_Scribe
Yes, not a very good position for them to be in, but it's a chance to redeem both souls, his victim's and his own. I think people do have to learn to face each other when these things happen, otherwise, neither will heal properly. The victim will always know fear and the criminal will never have to get to know the family he harmed, a situation that almost always leads to true remorse (healing of one's soul).

The Ninth Scribe
facing them is one thing but seeing them everyday is not constructive. You also run into the chance of revenge and now you have 2 sins on your hands. I would put this in the same category as wearing the hijab. Why tempt someone in suck a way?
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Ninth_Scribe
06-27-2008, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
facing them is one thing but seeing them everyday is not constructive. You also run into the chance of revenge and now you have 2 sins on your hands. I would put this in the same category as wearing the hijab. Why tempt someone in suck a way?
Well, I say I would do this, and for the reasons I gave because I feel we're all responsible for the souls of the ones around us. But it should, of course, be at the discretion of the family concerned. You would obviously do it differently.

The Ninth Scribe
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aamirsaab
06-27-2008, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan
facing them is one thing but seeing them everyday is not constructive. You also run into the chance of revenge and now you have 2 sins on your hands. I would put this in the same category as wearing the hijab. Why tempt someone in suck a way?
How is a hijab tempting someone? You do know the whole point of a hijab is to prevent temptation (as is the beard and covering for men the same sort of prevention) Or are you just bitter about Islam? Methinks the latter.

With regards to the topic; though I'd rather have this scumbag be dealt with in accordance to sharia law, I'll settle for a prison sentence.
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